I feel that Justin should get the point for saving Jeremy. How I see it was Stephen performed an action (declaring attackers at both players) that, had it gone through, would've killed Jeremy. Then, Justin performed an action that then effectively negated Stephen's action. Thus saving Jeremy as well as himself. Had Justin not saced the frog, Jeremy would've died. Whether or not Justin would've technically died first, his action still directly lead to Jeremy not being dead. Therefore, it is a save. Either way, it was a super fun game and I'm glad someone finally played an EDH Korvold deck.
He has a very clear motivation for saving Jeremy in saving himself. The rule should reward selfless acts of saving someone else for no personal gain within the game. The rule should not reward players for making a selfish play in keeping themselves alive, regardless of the other implications that action has.
Rules shouldn't care about motivation. The rule clearly states that "saving another player during a game" nets you an additional point. It doesn't specify that you only have to save that one player and no one else. What about another example? Say, another player casts a humongous Torment of Hailfire, which wouldn't be lethal to you, but would end up killing the other two remaining players. Of course it is inconvenient to you, so you counter it, to keep your ressources. But you don't get a point for saving the other two? That's wrong
There's just something so satisfying about the decks being sleeved in matching, solid-color Eclipses instead of Creature Collection sleeves. Really appreciate it, hope it stays.
if you count with the finger binary you can count up to 31 on one hand. thumb is 1, index 2, middle 4, ring 8 and pinkie 16. using both hands you can make 1032 seasons with no problem.
Thank you for providing me with a new code for hand gestures. If you can decipher this, and don’t take the 132 seriously, this is what I’m saying to you with my hands. 33, 99, 132, 19 (waggle).
For the save a player point, I'd say Justin did save Jeremy. It depends on how you define "save" though. I'd define it as: did you take an action that directly prevented another player from dying? If yes, then you saved them. Sac-ing the spore frog saved Jeremy, regardless of when Justin would have died if he had not prevented the damage.
Justin should get the point, regardless of your life you saved Jeremy. You can save people on the way out of the game and earn points, therefore saving yourself and another player should earn a point.
My playgroup has got kinda arms racey lately so I decided my next deck would be a janky korvold food token deck. It’s really fun to play and actually has a chance to win sometimes swinging in for commander damage
This show is the best!! Perfect cast of ppl!! Great diversity of games and awesome approaches. Personal favourites include the horde!! However would be awesome to see more double headed. Keep up the great work!! Thanks again! #TeamGreen #NeverEndingCommanderVS
If Justin hadn't spore frogged, Jeremy would've died though. Why does it matter if Justin would have died first? Jeremy was also about to die, I don't see what the first strike changes about Jeremy's impending death lol. The point is for saving someone else, Justin saved Jeremy, Justin should get the point.
1st Strike is still after the Declare Blockers step, Jeremy had lethal unblocked damage to him prevented by Spore Frog. Seems pretty clear Justin should get a point.
I mean spore frog does say prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn so even if there is a first strike creature it doesn't matter because it prevents all damage from all combat so Justin @jparnell1 I think you should get the point for saving Jeremy as well
I agree. If you die, your cards go out of the game with you, but effects that are in play until end of turn remain in play. I may not be an official Commander Judge, but what I believe happens is that action saved him, even if Justin died from non-combat damage, or first strike with the ability on the stack, but that doesn’t seem possible. I’ve also been half awake for five days, unable to really sleep or really be up (I’m sick), so I half slept through half this episode. Justin, I feel like you should take the point, but then play Simic or Selesnya next week as penance.
I vote no point for Justin, saving Jeremy was a side effect of saving himself. You should only get the point, if the intention is to save the other person. Perhaps should be clarified in some point screen sub-rule nonsense :) Great game guys!
I would say Justin gets the point. Although his intention was to save himself, if Spore Frog never happened Jeremy would still be dead due to the attack. I definitely see where Justin is coming from, but I do think he did still save Jeremy.
I think Justin should get the point for saving Jeremy. The main reason is that if Spore Frog was not used, Jeremy would be dead. It is a simple cause and effect scenario. Justin had to save himself in order to save Jeremy. He wouldn't have been able to perform the good deed if he was no longer in the game.
That happens pretty frequently because green is such a powerful color in commander. In this game all but one commander was green. If we are going to make everyone play a specific color, I choose white.
Wait, does the forge actually work that way? I don't think it does... Because although the card comes in upside down it still has a colour identity, and you aren't casting the Morph. The Morph isn't the card getting cast, it's the effect
I agree with you Justin :D I play Meren in our group and either people don't want to play with me or they never gonna stop talking about me playing it :D ... I even once decided not to do anything who game except of having board presence. And I was still most hater player that day :D
I think Justin should get the point because even if Justin died to first strike, wouldn’t the prevent all combat damage this turn from spore frog still exist? If yes then he saved Jeremy because without the sacrifice Jeremy would have died. If there’s a weird commander rule where Justin’s spore frog effect is removed after he loses the game, then he shouldn’t get it
That's actually how it would work I believe. Once a player loses the game all effects, permenents and emblems that player controls are null and void. Seeing how Justin would have lost the game before Jeremy (due to first strike) he would simply be out. I could be wrong though. /shrug.
Caleb Johnson I know permanents and emblems leave the game with the player, but I don’t think there’s any official ruling on effects. To be fair, I don’t think there are official rulings on anything in Commander yet, except for color identity cases, like some unnamed cards (like KITCHEN FINKS!)
I think Justin should get that point since his action directly prevented Jeremy from being knocked out, even if he did not take the action with intent to save Jeremy.
I put fallen shinobi in my kadena since nobody likes to block. I'm bout ready to blightsteel in. Manifest it, swing, no blocks? Boom surprise blightsteel colossus
No one else mentioned how Stephen had Blasphemous Act in his hand from the start, but straight-up bold-faced-lied to Jeremy about it? Tricky guy, that one.
Justin definitely should get the point. He saved Jeremy, it may not have been the full intention as he was saving himself as well. But due to his actions Jeremy did not die so Justin should get the point.
I'm watching on my phone, and can't see text on cards. I aprreciate your content, and would love to see it grow even more, but can you please work on the overall design of the preview of cards?
I play Yarok in commander and it’s amazing when you have a panharmonicon soul of the harvest and risen reef. Then you play mulldrifter. You draw five cards off of soul of the harvest, get five cards or lands off of risen reef and ten cards off of mulldrifter. Or with avenger of zendikar, you can get like 50 or more 4/5 plants.
Personally, I'm building it for thief effects and some value ETB and Kicker effects. That said, outside of Mulldrifter, everything you mentioned is in the deck and they are pretty insane.
Ummm. Jon is playing morphs all wrong. Timing rules still apply. Without flash you can only play creatures on your main phases on your turn. You can morph the creatures face up at any time however.
I don't follow this show that much but every episode I watch it just seems that Jeremy gets targeted to the dirt every game. Is there a reason for that? Also, I don't think it should matter that you would have died to first strike damage. Had you used a kill spell on the on one of the creatures that was going to hit Jeremy instead and it was enough to save Jeremy, even if you die in the process you still save Jeremy. The logic you are using is that you are trying to save yourself FIRST and worry about others later. So really what you are basing the point of a save off of is the motive behind it vs the act of saving. In my opinion, saving someone is saving someone and I believe the point should be awarded even if the motive behind the action isnt 100% altruistic.
Yep, hoof, any variant with that, or you could do brine elemental and vesuvian shapeshifter combo to make your opponents forever tapped out. But that's not indestructible, someone could play lands and destroy one of those if you can't counter it or whatever. You also will have to deal damage after you make your opponents stay tapped out. Its a little tough but it works well
If player A would win the game with a spell, but player B counters the spell, did player B "save" players C and D? That's the same as the Spore Frog thing.
![Commander VS S17E5: Grave Titan VS Mageta VS Muldrotha VS Neheb [EDH]](/img/n.gif)
I feel that Justin should get the point for saving Jeremy. How I see it was Stephen performed an action (declaring attackers at both players) that, had it gone through, would've killed Jeremy. Then, Justin performed an action that then effectively negated Stephen's action. Thus saving Jeremy as well as himself. Had Justin not saced the frog, Jeremy would've died. Whether or not Justin would've technically died first, his action still directly lead to Jeremy not being dead. Therefore, it is a save.
Either way, it was a super fun game and I'm glad someone finally played an EDH Korvold deck.
He has a very clear motivation for saving Jeremy in saving himself. The rule should reward selfless acts of saving someone else for no personal gain within the game. The rule should not reward players for making a selfish play in keeping themselves alive, regardless of the other implications that action has.
Justin himself said it shouldn't count
Rules shouldn't care about motivation. The rule clearly states that "saving another player during a game" nets you an additional point. It doesn't specify that you only have to save that one player and no one else. What about another example? Say, another player casts a humongous Torment of Hailfire, which wouldn't be lethal to you, but would end up killing the other two remaining players. Of course it is inconvenient to you, so you counter it, to keep your ressources. But you don't get a point for saving the other two? That's wrong
That look on Justin’s face after losing to Jeremy was priceless “SHOW ME!” LMAO
That was definitely a Bearded Jeremy style victory!
There's just something so satisfying about the decks being sleeved in matching, solid-color Eclipses instead of Creature Collection sleeves. Really appreciate it, hope it stays.
Justin: "Name a black card I don't have in the deck."
Stephen: Names an artifact
You don't know? Ashnod's Altar is a black card
Yeah, it's a joke from a previous episode, perfect throwbacks haha
What an excellent Game! Near the end, the politics, the edge of seat plays, and the clutch sporefrog. Definitely one for the history books!
I've watched this episode so many times and I keep coming back for the different commanders
Thank you, John! I have been inspired to update my Kadena deck. Mystic Forge? OMG!
“I hate secrets” was my favorite quote.
Glad to see you guys back. Love watching you all play, and the banter.
This is the start of the last season before the Nationwide lockdown lol
It was funny to hear Steven joke about 2020...they had no idea what was coming
Did not see that ending coming. Loved it! Also, I vote no point.
if you count with the finger binary you can count up to 31 on one hand.
thumb is 1, index 2, middle 4, ring 8 and pinkie 16.
using both hands you can make 1032 seasons with no problem.
Thank you for providing me with a new code for hand gestures. If you can decipher this, and don’t take the 132 seriously, this is what I’m saying to you with my hands. 33, 99, 132, 19 (waggle).
For the save a player point, I'd say Justin did save Jeremy. It depends on how you define "save" though. I'd define it as: did you take an action that directly prevented another player from dying? If yes, then you saved them. Sac-ing the spore frog saved Jeremy, regardless of when Justin would have died if he had not prevented the damage.
Quote of the game: "Something, something mom's spaghetti"- Stephen Green, 2020
It is made even more funny by how many actually know what song it is by such little lyrics:P
So glad you guys are back! Wednesday withdrawals over.
55:50 "Is it an instant or sorcery?" That look on Justin's face XD
Looking forward to following this season from start to finish. Love these videos, really makes me want to start playing commander!
Stephen always plays my favorite decks lol
Justin should get the point, regardless of your life you saved Jeremy. You can save people on the way out of the game and earn points, therefore saving yourself and another player should earn a point.
I like how it's 3 incredible value based commanders vs...
mono red
you got Jund + Sultai + Sultai
Justin should get the "saved a player point". His action still saved Jeremy.
My playgroup has got kinda arms racey lately so I decided my next deck would be a janky korvold food token deck. It’s really fun to play and actually has a chance to win sometimes swinging in for commander damage
This show is the best!! Perfect cast of ppl!! Great diversity of games and awesome approaches. Personal favourites include the horde!! However would be awesome to see more double headed. Keep up the great work!! Thanks again!
#TeamGreen
#NeverEndingCommanderVS
When mono red is the police of the table
So stephen playing kami of the crescent moon, going full howling mine tribal, would be hilarious right?
If Justin hadn't spore frogged, Jeremy would've died though. Why does it matter if Justin would have died first? Jeremy was also about to die, I don't see what the first strike changes about Jeremy's impending death lol. The point is for saving someone else, Justin saved Jeremy, Justin should get the point.
Commander VS with a LoadingReadyRun shout out? Love it. Have my like gentlemen.
1st Strike is still after the Declare Blockers step, Jeremy had lethal unblocked damage to him prevented by Spore Frog. Seems pretty clear Justin should get a point.
I'm an optometrist, and I'm honestly shocked I haven't had a patient make a 2020 joke yet
I mean spore frog does say prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn so even if there is a first strike creature it doesn't matter because it prevents all damage from all combat so Justin @jparnell1 I think you should get the point for saving Jeremy as well
I agree. If you die, your cards go out of the game with you, but effects that are in play until end of turn remain in play. I may not be an official Commander Judge, but what I believe happens is that action saved him, even if Justin died from non-combat damage, or first strike with the ability on the stack, but that doesn’t seem possible. I’ve also been half awake for five days, unable to really sleep or really be up (I’m sick), so I half slept through half this episode. Justin, I feel like you should take the point, but then play Simic or Selesnya next week as penance.
I vote no point for Justin, saving Jeremy was a side effect of saving himself. You should only get the point, if the intention is to save the other person. Perhaps should be clarified in some point screen sub-rule nonsense :) Great game guys!
I would say Justin gets the point. Although his intention was to save himself, if Spore Frog never happened Jeremy would still be dead due to the attack. I definitely see where Justin is coming from, but I do think he did still save Jeremy.
I think Justin should get the point for saving Jeremy. The main reason is that if Spore Frog was not used, Jeremy would be dead. It is a simple cause and effect scenario. Justin had to save himself in order to save Jeremy. He wouldn't have been able to perform the good deed if he was no longer in the game.
So glad your back! Lost with what to watch on my Wed nights
I think Justin should get the point because that integrity is +1.
Before it starts: Ooh it's my boy Korvold!
A commander battle I’d love to see is one where everyone playing has to have a commander that shares at least one color
5 colour commander battle?
That happens pretty frequently because green is such a powerful color in commander. In this game all but one commander was green. If we are going to make everyone play a specific color, I choose white.
Great start, Jeremy - this is your season!
Hey what kind of sleeves are y’all using? I like the black front but coloured back
No on the point in my opinion, but that win was so good and out of no where. This episode was so enjoyable to watch.
Going back and watching these older videos makes me miss when Justin was at the the table. The table talk was a lot better, too.
Love the new profile pics of you guys
“Something something, moms spaghetti.” Ah, my favorite line from my favorite song.
Hey Justin that's a nice hoodie you have there! Lol good game guys!!
“If I only had a land”..Sang the same thing. Great minds think alike Justin.
Justin's Necromancy could not have targeted Muldrotha. Muldrothawas exiled by Jonathan's Reality Shift, which would've saved Jon.
Im a simple man, I see someone playing korvold, I like the video
Wait, does the forge actually work that way? I don't think it does... Because although the card comes in upside down it still has a colour identity, and you aren't casting the Morph. The Morph isn't the card getting cast, it's the effect
when layers are checked the card is a colorless creature.
@@snarglblargn4986 doesn't it check while it is still on the library, at that point it isn't a colourless nonland card though?
Jeremy: "Did some fun stuff early, now I'm sad." Sitting with 11 cards in hand and a clean board LOL
I agree with you Justin :D I play Meren in our group and either people don't want to play with me or they never gonna stop talking about me playing it :D ... I even once decided not to do anything who game except of having board presence. And I was still most hater player that day :D
John with the sneaky peak at Justin's hand at 28:50
is there a place to see the decklists they are using?
It's probably Premium access only.
It might have been added after the fact, but the video description has a link to the decklists now
I think Justin should get the point because even if Justin died to first strike, wouldn’t the prevent all combat damage this turn from spore frog still exist? If yes then he saved Jeremy because without the sacrifice Jeremy would have died. If there’s a weird commander rule where Justin’s spore frog effect is removed after he loses the game, then he shouldn’t get it
That's actually how it would work I believe. Once a player loses the game all effects, permenents and emblems that player controls are null and void. Seeing how Justin would have lost the game before Jeremy (due to first strike) he would simply be out. I could be wrong though. /shrug.
Caleb Johnson I know permanents and emblems leave the game with the player, but I don’t think there’s any official ruling on effects. To be fair, I don’t think there are official rulings on anything in Commander yet, except for color identity cases, like some unnamed cards (like KITCHEN FINKS!)
Its good to be back!
Can Justin announce Stephen as Esteban Verde again sometime? I really miss that.
15:20
As always my southern brother from another mother sittin over there stirrin up the ruckus
What kind of sleeves do you use in this episode
Look like ultra pro eclipse
It is nice how Jeremy decided to play his commander at 54:00, when he had Seedborn Muse and Teferi in his hand
I think Justin should get that point since his action directly prevented Jeremy from being knocked out, even if he did not take the action with intent to save Jeremy.
I put fallen shinobi in my kadena since nobody likes to block. I'm bout ready to blightsteel in. Manifest it, swing, no blocks? Boom surprise blightsteel colossus
No one else mentioned how Stephen had Blasphemous Act in his hand from the start, but straight-up bold-faced-lied to Jeremy about it? Tricky guy, that one.
Justin definitely should get the point. He saved Jeremy, it may not have been the full intention as he was saving himself as well. But due to his actions Jeremy did not die so Justin should get the point.
Man, Jonathan's always sitting there like he's just about to smack the very next person to kill his stuff. I'd be scared playing with him ^^
When y'all switching seating up?
Hype! Been missing your vids
is the way that john describes how mystic forge works with morph creatures correct?
Yep tho its dumb
Where did Stephen get that shirt?
I'm watching on my phone, and can't see text on cards. I aprreciate your content, and would love to see it grow even more, but can you please work on the overall design of the preview of cards?
What kind of sleeves are they using?
I think they're Ultimate Guard Katanas. Seems likely, as they are sponsored by Ultimate Guard. They're a bit pricey, but Katanas are pretty nice
Is this stream live??
Great way to start the new season😂
Good job Jeremy
Since Justin love’s sacrificing things he should Play in the next Commander Versus Shimatsu the Bloodcloaked.
I feel like Thromok would be better
Decklist?
I play Yarok in commander and it’s amazing when you have a panharmonicon soul of the harvest and risen reef. Then you play mulldrifter. You draw five cards off of soul of the harvest, get five cards or lands off of risen reef and ten cards off of mulldrifter. Or with avenger of zendikar, you can get like 50 or more 4/5 plants.
Personally, I'm building it for thief effects and some value ETB and Kicker effects. That said, outside of Mulldrifter, everything you mentioned is in the deck and they are pretty insane.
With Panharmonicon and Yarok each effect triggers three times, not five.
Yeah, math says: 3, 3, 6. (Not 5, 5, 10).
We need more edgar >:) and or teysa karlov lol. Korvold gets nuts pretty quick
Lol Justin came preeeeepared and lol 3 green decks v 1 mono red deck
I think no point. Otherwise you have to count every alternate win-con card that gets countered as 2 points
I think that should count. You save everyone by countering a second casting of Approach of the Second Sun.
Getting some mic feedback around the 31:00 mark
Suarez spends more time on spaz shuffling the cards in his hand than he does taking his turn.
Ummm. Jon is playing morphs all wrong. Timing rules still apply. Without flash you can only play creatures on your main phases on your turn. You can morph the creatures face up at any time however.
He had leyline of anticipation and then Vivien 3. Both give stuff flash.
Ohhhh. I get up to get a drink one time.... Damn it.
I don't follow this show that much but every episode I watch it just seems that Jeremy gets targeted to the dirt every game. Is there a reason for that?
Also, I don't think it should matter that you would have died to first strike damage. Had you used a kill spell on the on one of the creatures that was going to hit Jeremy instead and it was enough to save Jeremy, even if you die in the process you still save Jeremy. The logic you are using is that you are trying to save yourself FIRST and worry about others later. So really what you are basing the point of a save off of is the motive behind it vs the act of saving. In my opinion, saving someone is saving someone and I believe the point should be awarded even if the motive behind the action isnt 100% altruistic.
I love yarok. I have one to but lack win cons
4:45 I come from the future with good news
I thought Jon's deck was super cool! How do you win with it, though?
Hoof
Yep, hoof, any variant with that, or you could do brine elemental and vesuvian shapeshifter combo to make your opponents forever tapped out. But that's not indestructible, someone could play lands and destroy one of those if you can't counter it or whatever. You also will have to deal damage after you make your opponents stay tapped out. Its a little tough but it works well
Stephen you're too nice. Oh well nice try pretty good for mono red.
No more breaks for you!
does anyone else hear enderman noises at 14:55
You've been doing this for 18 years?! The journey we have gone on together....
If player A would win the game with a spell, but player B counters the spell, did player B "save" players C and D? That's the same as the Spore Frog thing.
2x speed binge watched ✔
i think i might have been the person who lost to Steven Green on primal surge at that fnm
they should do 4 player mill again lol
Yes! Ilharg
They remade phyrexian arena (every upkeep for every player)for the rakdos knight but whatever
Go Packers go
It's one damage to each creature and 2 to each opponent
The spell is "choose three"
He chose the creature damage option twice
@@LowlySlime ah, I did not realise that. Thank You
9:50 jeremy, no way
Jeremy looking svelte.