Correction: Linden Cameron, a 13-year-old boy with autism, was not killed by police. He was shot 11 times and suffered serious injuries. Regardless, it was excessive use of force that should not have happened. Also, let me take the opportunity to once again plug our new book that is out on preorder, which also discusses this topic: www.amazon.com/Your-Brain-Explained-Learning-Educational/dp/1681885638/
I was once violently beaten by police officers for going to the emergency room and requesting an antipsychotic that my health insurance had decided they wouldn't cover any longer without telling me. So i discovered that when i tried to refill it. My sister and a friend brought me to the hospital because after a few days of not having the medicine i was having episodes of psychosis (visual and auditory hallucinations) Before the police showed up, the most aggressive i became was when asked if i would consent to spending several days in the psychiatric unit and i said "no, fuck off with that." The police had the nurses cycle the two other patients out of the room i was in, and then entered the room. They told me that they were going to make me stay in the psychiatric unit. I told them that it would cause me to lose my job. Within ten minutes they had broken two of my ribs and my nose, stabbed me in the ass with a syringe of geodon and antivan, and tied me to a gurney. They charged me with "Inducing panic" (causing the evacuation of a public place) because of when they had the other two patients leave the room, because when they were beating me i was talking shit to them. I woke up two days later totally unaware of the criminal charge. The doctors discharged me as they determined i was not a risk to anyone or myself. Because i was upset about being assaulted and drugged, i refused any medication, consented to nothing (thus i signed no paperwork) and charged me with a misdemeanor that carried a six month jail time sentence with it. They beat me because i wanted to leave the hospital and they didn't want me to, and because i didn't hurt anyone (not even the police who were beating me and covered in my blood) and charged me with the only crime they could make it look like I was guilty of. As a result i have absolutely zero faith in mental health treatment. When I get background checks, this misdemeanor is described as "Inducing panic- terroristic threat." And it has cost me several jobs. This was *inside a hospital* that *had social workers* and is as accurate as i can possibly tell this story. Police are fucking *terrible* as an option for mental health. "Hey bro i got a mouse problem, what do you think i should do?" "Oh, napalm your home."
I am so sorry that you had to experience that... I had a friend call a wellness check when they couldn't get in touch with me. I was depressed, had major health problems and my well meaning friend wanted to ensure that I was alive. 3 police officers arrived. 1 broke into my house and pointed a gun at my dogs while I came out of the shower in nothing but a robe wondering wtf was going on. They told me that I needed to come outside. I told them that I had no problem doing so but I needed to put clothes on first. All 3 of them grabbed me, slammed me onto the ground, pulled me up by my wrists, slammed my face into the wall, literally dragged me to a police car. My naked body was exposed to my entire neighborhood. My wrist was broken. I was bruised from head to toe. These cops couldn't take me to jail because I hadn't committed any crimes so they used the wellness check call to have me taken to a mental health facility. Luckily the place they took me didn't have a medical unit so legally due to my health conditions I had to be taken to the hospital and medically cleared first or transferred to a medical & mental health facility after the hospital. The doctor at the hospital knew me. He knew I wasn't in crisis or suicidal. My dad called and the doctor agreed to release me to my dad. If this series of events hadn't happened I would have spent a minimum of 3 days in the psych ward, lost my job, who knows what would have happened to my dogs, I was already broke from all of my health problems. If I lost my job & went days to weeks without working I would have lost my house. So cops showed up to make sure that I was safe, not injured and alive. Since I was, they decided to ensure I was injured, harmed, and had I fought back, killed. How does this make any sense??
I was brutalized by police last year for a mental health crisis. Taken to the hospital, strapped down, treated like a drug addict with blood work, kept in isolation and then released in the morning. I was not on drugs. I did nothing wrong. But the whole system clearly set on treating me like a caged animal because I was unwell. Don't involve police or 911 if your having a mental health crisis. They will only hurt you.
@@teresacastillo1783 what does religion have to do with this... Not everyone's in the islamic community is like this, cause it can be anyone no matter the group, dont judge people that fast based on which religion, skin colour,.. etc. That's not how it works.
most people have no idea of what a psychotic episode would be like to experience. i've been caing for someone schizophrenic for six years and i still have no idea what her experience is like, internally.
Or having guns pointed to your head for having to restrain a violent autistic child. After they realize what your doing,l. You'll get the..... " Sorry, well try to be better aware next time."
Our system is broken because 911 was programmed in our minds as the save all. For those that don't know New Jersey State Police does a great job with mental illness every state should shadow that model. LOE environment need to change. I met many officers who was assigned to mental health facilities and still abuse persons with many issues. Ofc today believe that they should not have to deal with person(s) with crisis. Every ofc after hired should take psychology, sociology, included in the in-service training. Police should still respond to mental health crisis.
Knowing Better sent me and I really appreciate your candor and input on this topic. Algo engagement for the time being, but look forward to engaging in the comments.
It brought tears to my eyes. I lived for 25 years with MDD. Mental illness is viewed much differently than physical illness. I know that there are numerous reasons for the breakdown in the system. It’s very sad all the way around
imagine this, it’s 4am and you’ve had a hard day and just wanted to vent. you text a help phone and they jump the gun and assume you were going to do something. they proceed to call 911 and say that you threatened to h@ng yourself (when you did not). then you get a knock on the door and see 3 male police officers (you are a teenage girl). they take you to their car and yell at you to tell you what happened. they then slam the door in your face and ship you off to the er just to sit there for 7 hours alone then be sent home with trauma involving police.
I have bipolar disorder type I with psychotic features, and depending on which department depends on what happens. It is always that a police officer or sheriff deputy shows up first, but some police departments will call EMTs. However, some police departments take the person directly to the ER.
i think there’s needs to be another separate response team for people in a psychotic manic state... I have had 6 episodes where i was psychotic, but i’ve never wanted to hurt anyone or myself. I am “high functioning” (when i’m not manic, 99% of the time) & am almost finished with my masters in biotechnology. With dopaminergic activation way above baseline while manic, i’ve always tried to get away from “the cops” (mostly because I know the mental hospital 🏥 costs a fortune in the back of my mind.) It’s scary to my past and future self to think that i can be in a state that isn’t full logical (i think logic & reason are the antithesis concepts to psychotic thoughts) but it’s happened and i’ve been tackled to the ground by cops for it. Tbh i just need a pharmacological intervention that induces sleep to “fix” my mind, i.e. restore my baseline.
What happens if your altered sense of self avoids this pharmacological intervention? Would you want people to be "forced" to participate in this if that patient's actions places them at risk of hurting themself or someone else (intentions aside considering psychosis can involve accidental imminent risk of harm to self or others).
That was really insightful, you know your subject. One caveat: homeless people are not necessarily mentally sick. Some of them were victims of child sexual abuse and therefore do not have a family who can help them when they are out of work or underemployed (0 hour contracts). I would also like to point out that some people will call the police on someone, claiming they are dangerous or suicidal, when they just wish to harm them (family members who are worried that their victim may make a complaint for child sexual abuse or conjugal violence), want to get rid of them (landlords) or just want to make their life more interesting and like on tv/social media. Even when a person is distressed, it is usually possible to deescalate. Look at the beginning of the first Rambo movie for instance (First Blood). So many missed opportunities to de escalate... Just sending in an empathic dog or cat may help... That's what I'd do when my father (WW2 vet and FEPOW) had a flashback: I'd just tell the dog to go to him, the dog would sense there was something wrong and would stay at a safe distance, and my father would snap out of it and come back to the here and now.
There should be officers with full arrest power that are primarily trained to respond to mental health calls and also deal with crimes relating to mental/behavioral health. I.e suicide, sexual assaults, crimes against children, crimes against vulnerable, those having mental episodes, welfare checks on the elderly, neighborhood checks at night (an established time period to check neighborhoods and ensure homes are locked and secured), Drug Rehabilitation Centers, Juvenile Correction Centers.
great video. too many people end up in crisis in the first place, and too many of those are met with fear, stigma, and violence instead of concern and ongoing support. i really think replacing police with specialized workers for mental health will improve things for everyone
Please have a discussion with Officer 401. It would offer points of views from different sides, and it would expose you to his viewership and Vice versa.
Agreed, this UA-camr needs to be exposed to some content by police officers. I was sent by Knowing Better and wasn't especially impressed by some of the assumptions being made here, nor quoting "studies" conducted under absurd laboratory conditions that don't mirror real life stakes on any level.
@@ccdecker did you not watch the video???? how the presence of armed police inherently invites violence?????? we can see that the results of those studies mirror real life...
@@miaurye1286 did you not read my whole comment???? how the controlled laboratory study he mentioned (but didn't cite) was about holding a toy vs a (fake?) gun during a fake, safe laboratory scenario?????? we can see that the conditions of the study does not mirror the unpredictability of real life or the training of those involved....
@@ccdecker Responding to just about anything while armed is allowing and escalating the possibility of violence.. there's no reason for that to be the case. If you've watched KnowingBetter's video , there's another study in there that proves this. Yes, things are unpredictable, but the cops are more a danger to the mentally unwell person than the person is to them.
@@miaurye1286 so what exactly do you expect police to do in a country where anyone can be armed at any moment? Just go into every situation with their fingers crossed they won't catch a gun in their face?
Or maybe even introduce the treat button last... Or take it away for awhile? Continue giving him Treats... But once he has trained then introduced a treat button meanwhile while still using the treats up until then
Yeah, I have major depression, and (extremely) bad panic attacks with social anxiety, and sometimes they last for hours and then my parents call the cops “to talk to someone” but they always just take me to the hospital and I have to sit in the claustrophobic white Florissant room for hours with people everywhere coming in and out and with the social anxiety it’s awful but it’s not the worst of it. Then they put me on the psychiatric floor with eeemmmptyyy depressing plan tone rooms, you have to have a staff open the metal window blinds that are locked up the see outside but you can’t get outside so you feel trapped, they wake you up at 7:00 and force you to get up from the hard thin gym Matt beds and make you sit in these awful cult like meetings with other people that talk about “coping” and everything mental health that makes me more aware and fall deeper into my head, and for a better example of how horrible this was… when I first came in on day one I was 165 pounds and by day 7 e when I got out I was 145 that’s 20!!!!pounds lost in a week, I was eating completely normally and all you do there is sit for real, I’m seriously traumatized to the point that I think I might have Minor PTSD.
I’m not in favor of police should be better training and if that can’t be done then no cops on mental health calls Quick edit: I have been hurt because of police when I was in crisis. While not killed… physically hurt and emotionally traumatized
In a perfect world no, they are the last people who should respond..... HOWEVER in the real world it's how it has to be, who do you call at 2AM when crap hits the fan???? Not your m-f 8-5 doctor, you call the only people who are 100% obligated to respond and are always on call 24/7/365..... It's unfortunately a imperfect solution for a imperfect problem. We need Doctors and mental health professionals helping people in need and not armed peace keepers who can use armed deadly force to maintain public safety at all cost. This is all around a crappy solution for everyone and everybody. It's a rock and a hard spot.
I think that this really needs to be prefaced with "in the USA". As a rule Europe / Canada and most other developed nations (also known as "civilised nations" do things very differently.
The answer is yes, and no, situation matters, I'd love to see a world with more special response with actual mental health professionals. This is coming from someone that well.. I don't have to imagine the scenario of them coming and taking me to the hospital.. and in the area I was in.. that's a 45 minute ride, and you don't get a ride back. once the hospital discharges you, you have to find your own way back. However, I really needed to be taken to the hospital in that instance, and they were very good about it. I've also seen it go the other way though. Really I'd like prefer something like the replace option. In an ideal world.
I can assure you, the police don’t want this responsibility. It has been put on them with little to no training. This is a job for social workers and/or medical professionals.
The speaker is unarguably correct and has the very best of motives and relevant experience. However it an comes down to you living in a highly militarised, heavily armed society with a private industry driven health system. Until you deal with that, you are fiddling around the edges.
This is what defund the police means. Not to take away all police funding but to limit their role to law enforcement and take funding from them along with responsibilities that shouldn't have been theirs to start like mental health services. Crisis lines should be funded to send their own responders instead of relying on police and then should also have funding to direct people to social workers who can help them access long term care.
I believe it to be a very simple yet complex issue. As i am in mobile i will put the simple cause, a cop is cheaper than a doctor, so that goes in the city and state budget. In some cases mental health situations are also dangerous as a person in not a well state of mind plus a gun can be quite a bad combination, and both of those are quite common on america. My only guess as to how tackle the issue would be to get mixed mental health workers and police backup teams as the situation is still dangerous and in no way american culture will get to the peace levels of UK and norwigean societies anytime soon. This wilñ take a hell of lobbying, occupy wallstreet levels of it as mentallly vulnerable people and their familirs are not that politically powerful. Hope i dont get yeeted
I agree with what you're saying about mental health care, and I support better police training and resources. However, you lost me at the story of the guy walking through intersections who got shot. Yes, here in America, police shoot when someone who's disobeying and causing trouble suddenly pulls something out of their pocket. If you watch the channel PoliceActivity, they have plenty of examples of some citizens escalating things from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. I've watched police get shot when they didn't respond fast enough. And you know why those other countries can _somehow_ get away with police not having guns? Cause they aren't likely to get shot by the citizens. This is America, not those countries.
For real, I actually laughed at the literal finger wagging he did and his little exasperated sigh about how sad he is that cops see people as threats (then basically saying this is the police departments fault). I'd like to see this dude go out in the streets and deal with the crazy shit that gets thrown at officers here every day and not come away feeling like you were a target for some people
@@genessab I watched the rest, and I largely agree with his points. Reforming and replacing police response to mental crisis with Crisis Response Teams and trained mental health response teams is a good idea. I like what they have going on in his example from Oregon. At _minimum,_ we should require crisis training if places are _still_ going to send officers to crisis calls. But on this one point, it seems like he's being dismissive of why cops need to carry guns in the fist place. I already listened to his counterpoints before I posted the original comment. At the risk of oversimplifying, he basically asserts that cops don't need guns cause guns escalate things and other countries seem to manage without them. Again, while that may be good for those other countries, cops in the US are likely to encounter citizens with guns. Even calls or stops for people who don't initially appear armed and dangerous, someone can still pull a gun. When other non-lethal options have been tried or are out of the question, it comes down to the officer's life or the citizen's who pulled the gun. Maybe this could make a good case for reducing gun ownership so cops don't have to be armed either, like those "other countries that somehow manage", but that's a separate conversation entirely. In the meantime, US cops largely still need guns.
“I’d like to see this dude go out in the streets and deal with the crazy shit that gets thrown at officers here every day and not come away feeling like you were a target for some people” Wow, well if that ain’t some r/selfawarewolves content right there. It’s almost like you’re saying the presence of a police officer may escalate a situation. As stated in the video, I did work with the folks most likely to encounter police and most likely to be seen as “dangerous”. People think that mental illness and violence go hand in hand, but that perception does not match reality. Studies show that people with mental illnesses are no more likely to be violent than the general population, but they’re up to 10x more likely to be victims of violent crime. Take that in conjunction with the fact that they’re also 16x more likely to be killed by police and we can see an issue here. You are perpetuating the belief that people with mental illnesses are unpredictable, that police should feel like they are constantly under threat, and that the best way to deal with that is to shoot people. Not every situation is safe, but damn, do we really need people who feel threatened going into these situations , guns at the ready?
You left out gun culture. I’d sadly doesn’t just come down to poor officer training, which in deed plays a role. Gun culture in America largely spawns the fear that anyone and everyone could have a gun. We have more guns in this country than people, and we have 330 million people. I think the latest estimate was near 450 million guns, and it’s probably more.
I say let’s do it. This allows so many people with Psychology degrees that do not want to go in for a doctorates or teach to have a job where they feel like they’re making a difference in a crisis situation.
I agree. Also, taking responsibilities and authority away from police, while still providing the same amount of service is a good thing. I don't agree with all his takes, but I'm glad he started the conversation.
My best friend didn't seek help at a inpatient because he was told it would be Prison rules if he went to a mental facility, no phone, no games he used to cope or even a DVD player, Stripped of ALL medication (along with cymbalta, narcotics too but he was on Valium after seeing his brother killed and was told it would go on his record and he may not be able to get it anymore after they handed out the rest of the prescription) He had a mental breakdown two months ago and to say it ended up the worst case scenario would be an understatement... Everything needs to be overhauled, there's no point in improving the system if people are afraid of interacting with it because they see it as further punishment
I felt so helpless a few years ago. We had a call involving a young man that had lost all touch with reality. He stole guns from all of his relatives and was keeping them in a trunk in the back of his pickup. He burnt down his fathers house and he hid in his mothers house waiting to harm her. She was, thankfully, gone for hours that day. He brutally tortured her dog with a knife and left. Officers picked him up and took him to the ER. Every single person in his family refused to do an IVC. ER doctors pulled every trick in the book to hold him a bit longer and they + officers called mental health facilities in almost every state. No one would take him. Everyone knew that prison alone was not going to be good for him. He needed in patient care and intense focus. Meanwhile people can have their 90 year old grandmother with dementia, who could not be physically dangerous if she wanted to be, committed all day long. The system is in shambles.
I'm in Olympia, Washington, and I struggle with mental health issues and let me tell you, when cops respond to a mental health crisis it SUCKS, but when CRU responds, you can often end up talking to some of the kindest, most compassionate people I've ever met. CRU volunteers also get frequent training days to help expand and update their crisis and de-escelation training pretty frequently. I've also ended up dealing with police in Seattle, Edmonds, Lynnwood, and Everett, and they're MUCH better than Thurston County. The main difference so far as I can tell is that up north, the cops are required to take sympathy training and de-escalation courses. Even Tacoma has jumped on that band wagon, and whereas Tacoma used to be known as one of the worst places for crime and violence, the last few times I've visited, it's been pretty nice, including law enforcement.
When I saw the poll I voted for police response in mental health calls because my one experience with a family member was aggressive and unmedicated schizophrenic and the police handled it relatively well but I had completely forgotten about the people that are depressed and asking for help or people with anxiety that are in a panic. I also hadn't considered that the police aren't equipped to deal with calls like that. This is a great topic to bring up because obviously people aren't thinking about this in the correct way and I will certainly reflect on this more
Yes, I mean in some situations where the person is a danger to others police will need to be involved even if the person is mentally ill. (I mean, most school shooters are mentally ill but you want police responding there) But the majority of mental health calls are depressed or anxious people who are only a danger to themselves. Having a mental health practicioner in the seat of making the call who to send would also be smart in situations like psychosis where some people may need a mental health worker and some may need police. (Ideally in that case a mental health worker will be sent as well to adress the person and help them cool down as soon as any danger has been mitigated)
A huge issue that you run into if police aren't involved is a good portion of people who avoid seeking help don't want the help. And you don't need much training to comprehend when the patient states, "I am going to kill myself" as an omission of imminent risk to self which needs to be addressed and not just "deescalated." But police have the legal authority (via a judge in the state of Texas) to place an involuntary hold. Whether you agree or disagree with involuntarily taking someone to a psych hospital who is suicidal is a different discussion, but police are the quickest route (in the state of Texas) to "force" someone into treatment. Ironically the vast majority of the patients I see who are involuntary have told a licensed professional that they are suicidal and then that professional calls a police officer to place them on an Emergency Detention Order (EDO). One is for the perceived safety of the patient and the other reason is a liability... No licensed professional wants that liability if a patient ends up taking their life. Police are a necessary piece because of the legality involving EDOs. Add in rural areas where the hospital I work for takes patients upwards of 3.5 hours away. Who is driving this person who is in crisis? Do you want to strap that patient with a 3.5-hour ambulance ride? Police in rural areas is the defacto drivers for these involuntary patients being sent to psych hospitals (at least out here in West Texas). Do I have issues with how the system functions? Sure. But that change is far more complicated than these proposed 3 options. In fact, out in West Texas, we have local mental health authorities who often assess patients without the need for police intervention (unless the patient does become dangerous or an EDO needs to be placed on them). And these violent occurrences would happen on the daily. Sure, they might comprise a small percentage as a total, but anecdotally I would see these patients at least once a day, and many we have to turn away because they are TOO violent. Meth is a huge issue in Texas and that type of substance use often exacerbates violence. While I agree the presence of an officer can add to a crisis I have had countless people express gratitude for their experience with the police and the local mental health authorities. And there usually is continuing care, it is just severely underfunded. The local mental health authorities have these individuals on their caseload, but many of the patients either avoid the outpatient assistance, feel they are better after their inpatient stay, or are frustrated with the timing for outpatient care (the lack of psychiatrists in West Texas really screws this whole system up). And when I mention TOO violent I mean TOO violent. These individuals (while super rare and they are a fraction of mental health patients and patients with psychosis) have placed staff in the E.R. when accepted. This isn't just someone punching a wall. These scenarios involve physical maiming or lifetime injuries sustained to staff. Spit, urine, feces, chunks bit out of staff member's arms, being choked unconscious, sexual victimization of staff (typically women), stabbings, etc. And these are the patients that get through the door AFTER we turn people away. A state hospital usually ends up with more violent patients. Do I think this is a just system? No. But it's easy to sit there and think up "solutions" without seeing what happens when trained law enforcement is not involved. I am happy that here in West Texas we have local mental health authorities that provide a lot of the services this guy is talking about. It is not perfect, but the help exists. And lastly, you can easily point to other countries for comparison, but we have higher levels of violent crime in the U.S. than in those countries. It is an easy trap to make comparisons, but that on-site visit with a patient in crisis naturally has a higher chance of violence in the U.S. compared with most places in Europe. Our substance use rates are higher too, and as mentioned previously, these drugs often make the situations even more difficult and unpredictable.
I had the same exact experience with my partner. My only recourse was the police after many weeks- and they did nothing because they technically didn't break the law. But in order for them to get help they have to check themselves in- which someone who's not in their right mind will not. There's no system in place for this still- and it's now easier to understand why the homeless population is growing, especially in my city.
Do not ever feel bad for calling if you are in danger. That is something you need to do. In the early 1990s I found myself in a car with a - completely unbeknownst to me - seriously mentally ill, undiagnosed teenage boy I had just been on my 3rd group date with. I had kissed the guy once when he decided to essentially abduct me. He pulled a knife, started driving in the opposite direction of where we were supposed to be going and threatened to murder me or take out both of us in various ways “so no one else could have” me for well over an hour. No cell phones then. There is still no reception on most of that mountain road today. If I could have safely called or alerted police then I would have. That was one moment in my life when I desperately needed them. I personally wouldn’t have felt bad if something happened to him either. Not after the first (though not the last) “I’m going to get what’s owed to me”. Even though I could tell he truly had serious MH issues when I looked at his eyes. Long story short I talked him down by the time we reached the one turn around spot at the top of the mountain and he decided to drive me back to my friends house at 100 mph on a 10-35 mph road. I requested that his family have him institutionalized after the fact. He was, several states away, and then he was sent to a group home for young adults with mental health issues on the other side of the country for 2 years. Based on the things I heard that he did to the woman he married after he got back - it did no good whatsoever. Back then everything was called a “chemical imbalance” but if I had to guess I would say that he was rather high up on the BPD spectrum - with other related issues - and fell into the camp of those most likely to resist treatment. On a job related note - I’ve been a 911 dispatcher for 2 decades now, I know exactly how broken and frustrating the system is. I’ve also been a long term advocate (long before I started my job) for an end to over criminalization, mass incarceration and to curb injustices that are known to erode rights, and increase wrongful convictions. I would love to see numerous reforms. I find it appalling that people truly in need of in patient care have little to no hope today. There was little hope in the 1990s, though there were more options then.
@@petraarkian7720Thankfully we are seeing more pilot programs today that involve both officers and mental health professionals. We do not have this in my area yet but I have to say the officers where I live do pretty good. It’s a smaller, rural area that is more spread out but is still based on community policing. When it comes to the local yokels - they know who has MH problems, they know their parents, they know their grandparents. The same holds true with people who have physical health conditions that cause erratic and combative behaviors. One of my former classmates from the first day of kindergarten on pulled out a shot gun and blasted through his front door when officers knocked on it one night. Luckily one of the officers saw him through the window and pulled the other out of the way. They yelled at him, he put down the gun and they requested as ambulance. As expected (usual) his blood sugar was 45. I grew up watching police & paramedics chase him around my town while screaming about his blood sugar bottoming out. They have dealt with a wide range of MH issues beautifully. Officers involved shootings are incredibly rare in my county. They do a good job talking to people and they will spend hours with someone that just needs to talk - if time allows. They tend to spend extra time trying to put people at ease. Of course many call and request officers themselves. They are incredibly mindful of combat vets with PTSD. Several of them were in the military/combat and they are incredibly supportive. There are many more good stories that people do not hear about on the news. That said - they still shouldn’t be the primary ones handling this. We need better in patient facilities and we need facilities for the criminally insane. *thankfully affordable insulin is finally being addressed
Exactly. And this is the main reason why so many are calling for defunding the police. Not to pu ish cops, but to fund services that are better equipped than what is heaped upon law enforcement to address. Cops should not be asked to intervene outside of public safety concerns. Real public safety concerns. Not a guy who has ptsd who is angry and needs therapy and is not proving a threat to anyone.
Could be possibly just extra resources for ems. In the U.K. that’s where the initiatives are starting with sending out mental health nurses with paramedics
Another point not really mentioned is lag. The only time I had police called for suicidal ideation I was asleep by the time they showed up and anyone with depression can atest to how much good sleep helps. Instead I was shaken out of bed, startled into a new episode of anxiety and depression, and had to explain to them that I had an off day and all I really wanted was to go back to bed please.
I like the CAHOOTS model a lot - medics in case there are overdoses, suicide attempts or other immediate health concerns, partnered with crisis workers, social workers, or therapists to connect with community resources and provide follow up, as well as make sure the medics are handling the situation well. Would love to see this in more places!
I would too but I (have been a 911 dispatcher *for 2 decades) know zero paramedics or social workers that would go along with it due to cases in my county where social workers and paramedics were murdered by someone experiencing a mental health crisis.
I hate to use dictionary form definitions but Police are "an organized nonmilitary force for maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime and enforcing the laws" In no part of that definition can we extract that they should have the duty of responding to mental health crisis unless, of course and it should go without saying, as a by-product of said mental health crisis, a crime is committed, and they wouldn't be responding to the crisis itself, but the crime committed. So I would be all for skipping right to step 3 and replace all Police intervention in mental health crisis in favor of professionals in the field.
So how does someone get help if they don't want it and they want to actively kill themself? This becomes a legal issue the moment we value someone's life more than their personal freedoms in that crisis. We need a law enforcement official to be part of the process which qualifies for your definition.
How about when the person turns hostile towards fire/EMS and attempts to assault, injure, or kill them? Seen it happen first hand on mental health calls that PD refused to respond and assist on.
What about a world where the police are professionals? 🤔 In the UK you need a degree in policing where you learn how to defuse fear & tense situations. They are taught to police using the peelian principles which is all about policing by consent rather than through force.
The reflective and open dialogue this video has created is exemplary. It's really nice to see an issue addressed in a way that doesn't make people feel like their being attacked and also gets people to re-evaluate their views. Thank you so much for this, and thank you to all the commenters leaving comments on what they believe and have learned.
Been in a situation where PTSD was triggered and fear was mistaken for anger. I did not go looking to get PTSD, i did not commit the crime that gave it to me. So, in the heat of the moment it's hard to accept law enforcement officers turning up. The thing is though, aside from who should turn up, I was glad that someone removed me from the midst of gawking people standing around watching me break. Thank you, you tackle some huge subjects on this channel and it is so important.
My dad suffered from combat PTSD for years when I was a child. He carried around a gun almost everywhere he went due to fear. It was always with him in combat, he received a rather nasty reception when he got home, and he didn’t feel safe. He accidentally misfired his weapon while trying to get something else out of his pocket while at a parade in our town one year and the bullet went through his shoe. Thankfully it missed his toe, and everyone else. He stopped carrying it all the time after that. One day I was glad that he didn’t have it because he convinced himself that a group of younger people were mocking him for going to Vietnam. Something about the situation reminded him of the group of people that attacked him at an airport in California when he finally landed back in America. He went home, got his gun, and went back out to kill them. I watched him rip the house apart while having flashbacks *typically after a bad nightmare and it was always in attempt to find explosives he thought he needed for combat* more than once but that was the one time I was truly scared. We had to call police. They all knew him and several were combat vets. Luckily ended up talking himself out of it and just drove around for a while.
I have dealt with the situation that you described in the intro and to anyone watching this who is on the fence, the whole experience made me feel like I couldn't trust anyone when I was in crisis and almost resulted in my death multiple times..
I've been the guard at the hospital watching over people in for a 5150. Suicide watch. We were allowed to hold people up to 48 hours at the minimum, and in some cases up to a month. It usually took over 24 hours before they were taken away. People's clothes, phones, and personal belongings are all taken away. You aren't even allowed to go to the bathroom, the guard is probably busy trying to watch half a dozen people, so you can't even talk to anyone. And since you are in the ER, everyone is upset that you are taking up valuable space. It is absolutely dehumanizing and it is not okay or right. Edit more info: Nurses would stick an IV needle into the patient's hand and it had to be left there. If the patient tried to take it out then they would be restrained and sedated. The patients would also be sedated against their will if they were ever rowdy.
I was also told that this "offense" goes on your record and you can't ever buy a gun or have a government job. But I never looked it up for myself and I don't know if it is true
i have never wanted hurt anyone while psychotic.... it’s mostly a grandiose genre of psychosis, very comparable to someone on psychedelics.. in fact psychedelics have induced about half of my psychotic-manic episodes... (as opposed to a non psychotic-manic state which is amazing-creative-& productive.... although not sustainable)
I've had experiences with police responding to a "welfare check" as they call it here in three different locations. Rural, college town, and urban poverty area. None of the experiences were good or helpful. One ended in a hospital stay I felt was wholly unnecessary. Another resulted in verbal abuse and threats of sexual abuse from the officer if I didn't "shut the fuck up." In that case I actually did need to go to the hospital, but I was abused by the officer and left to my own devices. The third time simply resulted in an interrogation-detainment style suicide assessment while the neighbors watched.
Sounds like we have an officer that needs training in human relations! Very unfortunate attitude/behavior on his part. If he told me to "shut the f××× up!" then he would find himself explaining to his sargent why he has a complaint filed against him! I did get into it with a bike cop on skid row once. He told me if I didn't like his attitude or that he wouldn't stop yelling at me, then I could talk to his boss! So guess where I was next morning? He must have gotten the memo then! Because for the rest of my time there, he wouldn't even look at me much less speak to me! I made it VERY clear to management that his attitude was completely inappropriate!
I had a psychotic break last year and a Crisis Intervention Team showed up and cuffed me and threw me in the back of a car. Why? Idk. Because I didn't want to go to the mental hospital. That's literally it.
There is always a stigma present in the society regarding being carried in a Police Van. So, it's quite terrifying for a common person if he is being carried in a police Van for a simple episode of depression.
Completely agree. Having worked in the crisis intervention sector for several years in the UK. The parallels of problematic issues are very similar. Lack of resources and lack of funding with appropriate training means we are failing many people when they are at their most vulnerable/desperate.
As a french guy the idea of calling the cops to check on someone having a mental health crisis seems really absurd to me. Especially since ,well the cop in the US don't really sounds like used to not using the force. But I don't probably have a good overview on that part. In france I Would probably call the emergency services have a doctor on the phone who would probably send the firefighters, since they also do most of the jobs the paramedics do in the US.
The French system as many in Europe is incomparable to the US's one, also a social or medical systems that are so good in France and crap in the States. Not talking about the fact of having a gun which is an absurd to us. You, French are particularly good in improving your rights and system, chapeau bas :)
I agree with this 100%. Police should not be responding to mental health calls unless a mental health professional on scene calls for backup. They don't have the training or the ability to deescalate, and should be used as a last resort. Particularly, police don't have the ability or know-how to connect someone with ongoing mental care for their income level (or lack thereof).
I've had times, one only months ago, where I've been suicidal and wanting help. I considered contacting a suicide hotline but was afraid I'd be ignored or had the police called on me, so I didn't. In spite of wanting to go to go to a mental hospital, I didn't, because I was afraid that I'd lose my job for not showing up. I was also afraid that the bill would erase all of my savings that I've worked to build, or put me in the red and render me unable to pay my bills. Months later, I still haven't been able to get a therapist under my insurance who didn't just say "I can't help you". Things are a bit better right now but the next year still feels bleak and terrifying to look forward. I wish it was just easier to get myself help without fear. Even in spite of having friends and being in a relationship, I still feel like I have no one to talk to. Some won't take it seriously, some will, but only one actually knows how to appropriately deal with it, and I don't want to be more of a burdern to her than I already have.
Mental health is such a massive issue. I agree that police should not respond to mental health calls. But even if we could make that a reality (we probably will eventually), there’s still the problem of what to do with those people afterwards. I agree that mental health hospitals should not take 95% of the cases because 95% of the time, people are not actively trying to kill themselves. I’ve gone through an outpatient program because of a depressive episode and it did help, but at the same time, it was only 8 weeks long and I was lucky because I was able to drop out of school for a semester which was embarrassing but at least I could do it. I also had insurance that covered me. I had the privilege of going there. Most people can’t do that because employers aren’t too thrilled about an employee taking 8 weeks off to take care of their mental health. And even though I had the best case scenario happen to me, I still struggle with depression and even with all my tools and education and whatnot, I still did far worse in college than I could have had I not been depressed. The medications we have for mental illness work or don’t work for reasons we have no idea. We don’t understand every single variable in the equation. We don’t even know what a “normal” person is. We haven’t mapped the brain, we don’t know what’s wrong with some people’s brains and what isn’t. We have no idea what we’re doing. We don’t even have an objective measure of mental health. It’s all based on how we feel. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked if I felt better on some meds and worse on others. And every time I was asked that, I had no idea. The only real way to try to measure that that’s still not objective is to keep track of your moods daily and then plot them out and take averages and then see if the last 6 months were better than the previous six months. But even then, it’s not clear that it was better because of the medication or because of any number of other factors! I mean if you fall in love, you’re gonna feel better for those six months than you did during other parts of your life. If you lose your job, your gonna feel worse. If the weather is different, you might feel worse or better. Or it could be for some unknown other reason. It’s not at all clear that the medication is the isolated variable that’s making you feel better or worse. But besides that, why would I go through the trouble of tracking my moods when the definition of being depressed is not doing things I need to do? All of the treatments for depression require work, something you don’t want to do when you’re depressed. That’s why you’re depressed, you don’t think it’s worth working anymore. And all of these things are incredibly frustrating and also not well defined. What’s the difference between being lazy and self-absorbed and being depressed? Almost nothing. It could just be that I happen to be lazy or that I happen to be more neurotic than the average person. Is that a problem? Is it my fault that I’m neurotic? How do you fix that? Is it even a problem? I don’t know!!! My point is that even if we could respond better to mental health crises, we’d still be unable to help most of them. Not without a lot of support and more importantly, money. One in three people suffer from some sort of mental illness. We really can’t afford to help those people. I’m one of those people. I suppose that’s why I’m so cynical, but to be fair, I guess I do have depression. It’s just so frustrating because mental health is a chronic condition. We can only manage it, there’s no cure. And that makes it very expensive. And most of the time, we can’t intervene until it’s progressed into its most severe stage which is people trying to hurt themselves or others in a desperate attempt for help. People don’t want help until it progresses into a severe stage, when they can’t function anymore in society. I suppose to be fair, we can help the majority of people be functional. That would be worth the investment. Most people just need help navigating a situation they’re ill-prepared to handle. They don’t have some underlying brain abnormality. But people relapse all the time and when they do, they need another few weeks to recover depending on how severe their mental illness is. Again, it’s chronic and it’s a battle constantly fought, not a decision. It’s thousands and thousands of decisions made over and over again, and it only takes one bad choice to set you back. And the more things you have going on, the more choices you have to make, the more likely it is that you’ll relapse. It’s just a matter of time. And the excuse of having a mental illness gets old even for the person with the mental illness. I don’t know. Managing the mental health of 100 million people in the U.S alone sounds so impossible. But yeah, I suppose if we were able to have mental health professionals respond to mental health emergencies rather than police, that would make things better. At least we wouldn’t have people being shot when they needed help. I’m not blaming police, I’m just recognizing that police should not be responding to mental health emergencies. Guns are perhaps the worst possible thing when coupled with mental health issues even if the normal people have guns. And I don’t think police can be unarmed because unlike in other places, civilians are armed to the teeth in America. So if the civilians are armed, the police have to be armed too. But that’s exactly why police shouldn’t be handling mental health crises. That, and the stigmatization and the sheer number of false alarms. But it’s mostly just the fact that you can’t solve mental health problems with bullets or use of force. You can only make them worse even if you have the best of intentions.
My wife, during a bout of psychosis cause by a medication, which was compilated by her BPD and C-PTSD,, called a distress line. She ended up being told to go to a women's shelter. That was nearly four months ago. I still have not heard from her. Her psychosis involved in believing that there was a plot against her, of which I was part of, or even the cause. Two weeks before she left, I had called the distress line, as she was expressing suicidal ideation and had them talk to her. At the time, I had stopped her from driving, when she said she was leaving and not coming back, while in a frenzy. For this. After she had left two weeks later, I revived criminal charges for assault. The problem here is that the police are not trained in mental health. These are complex problems. It is frustrating that criminal charges withhold from her the person who loves, understands and has helped her for the last 11 years.
As someone who has lived through this kind of interaction - and am still working through the impact that had on my mental health and willingness to seek help - I think it’s incredibly important to underscore that even individuals suffering with psychosis, the majority are not and would not become violent or agressive toward others. It is imperative in America that we don’t inadvertently “throw individuals with psychosis under the bus” so that the people without psychosis can have access to better mental health care. When these interactions lead to death, they are often because of a misunderstanding of psychotic symptoms, and we must prioritize providing safe, equitable, and sufficient healthcare to ALL mental health symptoms and perceived levels of “severity” of the person in crisis. P.S. This is not in any way a direct response to what is said in the video, but instead a footnote, a reminder that even the most unfamiliar behavior patterns do not necessarily mean that someone is seeking harm.
For context, In the UK you need a degree in policing where you learn how to defuse fear & tense situations. They are taught to police using the peelian principles which is all about policing by consent.
As someone watching from Britain, I’m kinda surprised about the police responding to these kind of calls in the first place. I am in complete agreement that we should replace police in this situation with mental health professionals, it just seems the logical choice
These situations can be detrimental and cause more harm and problems in the future for individuals already struggling feeling lost and scared who are most likely experiencing mental health issues in the first place due to trauma that wasn't their fault. I had the cops called multiple times on me when I was having a "crisis" situation (in terms of those who called the cops on me all because they didn't have the patience, skills, etc to just give me some support and safe place by listening to me and showing love). Both times I ended up being handcuffed and transported to the hospital all because I didn't want to go with them. Those situations changed me for life.
Yes, there should be counselors of some sort that go with police to mental health calls or, if the person is not being violent, just send the counselors themselves, with the option of calling the police if they really have to. Often, it is very easy to calm them down, if you know how. But the police are not trained to do that, they are trained to be hard ass and respond to problems with "crushing force." The problem is that most of the funding goes, not to the mental health care system, but to the police system. So that is where they get what little psychological services they get.
The way I see it, the police should only be the ones to respond to mental health calls when there is a credible threat of violence, or when there are no other options. And even so, mental health response training should be a mandatory requirement in training before they can get their badge.
Sadly, viability of an option depends on its 'economic' contribution to wealth of those supporting the authority, rather than how really it solves the problem. For example, if you make a federal mandatory university degree "psychiatric policing", you will get some unusual lobbyist support.
I agree with you, but increasing the professionalism of ground level municipal employees means increasing funding, not just requiring more out of applicants. Ij fact, our standards for new applicants are selectively lowered depending on the applicant's demographaphy. We can't defund the police while also wanting them to be better educated, more empathic, and less over-worked. And disarming them is not a solution either.
Cops are some of the worst responders I can imagine for mental health calls. I want the cops to show up if someone is being robbed, or threatened physically, or if a criminal investigation needs to happen. I definitely don't want them to show up because someone is having an off day.
Personal opinion, ABSOLUTELY NOT. If the person doesn't have the absolute BEST relationship with law enforcement that could easily make the problem much worse
I am always late to the game so I just read last year's NYT Bestseller Hidden Valley Road, Inside the mind of an American Family. Mental health was never really on my radar until I started living in Southern California where the streets are littered with houseless people. Many strike me as needing mental health care, but being houseless for some time would cause a mental health crisis. Yes then I see the police dealing with them, so in my view Police are not trained nor are they social workers. We must find a better solution, and should not disregard creating group homes for mental health candidates, transparency is a must of course. This video speaks to me, thank you.
I completely agree with the first situation, it’s should be paramedics that come to your home but what if someone is on a bridge and need force to keep them safe then police should handle that
If 5% of the time mental crisis calls are about someone who is armed or violent, that is not insignificant. It seems to me that mental health professionals should be the ones responding to mental health crises, BUT police should be notified and be standing by, at a distance, in case they are needed. The mental health professional should carry a signaling device to alert police if they are needed.
Yeah, one of my friends has really bad experience with being taken back to hospital by the police which were way more violent than needed. My friend is only a flight risk, not an agression risk. (UK comment) The other thing I think about is statements and domestic abuse cases, MH professionals could have such a good role in taking statements compassionately from scared and traumatised victims, instead of putting that as another role on police officers
This was an amazingly educational and well put together video. Im currently working with a group where I live, on issues of social equity around policing and I definitely need to share this with them. Thanks so much for this resource!
This video is awesome. What we forget is that we have a massive amount of Reactionaries who would rather shell out more of their tax money for more cops and jails in order to lock people up behind bars instead of ever having to look at them out in public ever again.
You can’t forget that. Not if you have been slightly paying attention. America is a hyper carceral nation. I get frustrated with some fellow lefties because they have helped increase over criminalization and mass incarceration over the years with the support of overly simplistic narratives - belief in pseudoscience and even conspiracy theories. I’ve never been a fan of the overly simplistic radical feminist narrative that every criminal act directed at a woman or child is the result of a man seeking power and control. The Duluth Model used in DV/IPV cases is based on radfem theory but it was created by a theologian. It has several issues. Among them is the tendency to willfully and blatantly ignore poverty, structural racism, addiction, mental health problems, etc… If you refuse to acknowledge or focus on these concerns and the role they play - you are doing no favors for anyone. The same behaviors will be seen in the next relationship, and the next… Feminist law professor Aya Gruber wrote an excellent book called The Feminist War on Crime that beautifully lays out the adoption of hyper carceral mindsets within feminism during my childhood and teen years - though carceral attitudes among some groups of feminists goes back much further. It happened during a period and climate much like today. One swirling with an explosion in pseudoscience, bad ideas and conspiracies. I’ve gotten disheartened because almost every group pushing for court - prison reforms that I largely support has also thrown in pseudoscience that is known to increase injustices/false accusations and wrongful convictions. 🤷♀️ I’m glad more people are back to acknowledging numerous issues, as they were during the 70s - 90s, but there are problems in the ranks.
I’ll note that I don’t expect anyone to be able y fix all problems. Many people are resistant to help - treatment but you have to at least acknowledge that other factors can play a role and try to mitigate in some way.
@@neurotransmissions Absolutely! I was homeless for 10 years in Eugene in my 20s. I had many a mental health crisis and used White Bird many times (they are the people that run CAHOOTS). I was in a bad spot with a domestic violence situation and called the cops. They called CAHOOTS to take me to a shelter. There was also a time when I was having a really bad time, got really drunk, didn't feel safe riding my bike home, and needed to get back to the place I was staying, so I called them. They said, "We don't normally do that but we will take you to your place" They loaded me and my bike in the van and took me back to my camp trailer. I have called them for other people as well to be taken to the crisis hospital and to the alcohol detox center. They really are wonderful. Most of the police know when, and do call, CAHOOTS. They have even been given a larger budget to expand into the neighboring city Springfield. Now, this is not to say all is great and mental health in Eugene is treated well. There are still people that need mental health help ending up in jail more often than not. But mostly because we don't have a robust system in place to help everyone who needs it. White Bird Clinic is a wonderful place for low/no income mental/physical/dental health help, but they are sadly overwhelmed. We don't really have the best system, but it is definitely better than most.
While I am against abolishing the police, a concept supported by 15% of U.S. Americans (33% under 35 years old), I do see sense in minimizing their use, and the use of force by them. There are some few psychiatric disorders that pose such a threat to others that use of force, policing, and prisons will be a necessary component of containing them, even in an equitable society with all needs met. However, for the vast majority of psychiatric disorders, the tools to reduce harm (without causing more) are there, as I am convinced.
@@neurotransmissions From the popular literature I’ve seen anti-social personality disorder (see also callous and unemotional child), and pædophillic sexuality disorder seem like the most correlated to danger to others (by my opinion), but oppositional defiant disorder, and intermittent explosive disorder, and some other mood, personality, and impulse control disorders are cited in incidents of threat to others. Disorders, even the ones above, do not deterministically make anyone dangerous or dangerously anti-social, but sometimes incidents of dangerous or anti-social conduct (that are codified by society as crimes) can be traced to a persistent or untreated disorder, even when the crisis call is not explicitly a mental health call. The mental health component that makes the crime in question implicitly a psychiatric issue. While there is hope with the new science emerging on how to manage these disorders successfully, I strongly suspect that it takes a court order or removal from the community to get a select few to seek or comply with treatment for others' safety (within due process and dignity).
Got send here by Knowing Better and I am not disappointed. Great video and it is one of the few that I've seen which discusses the research on having or handling a gun and the chance of An aggressive outcome. I find the idea that mental health workers might be in danger if there is no police present An odd argument. I would assume that they are trained and experienced in handling People who are becoming aggressive in an erratic state. More than a police officer would be.
Don't really understand why this is always presented as an either or thing. When there's a car wreck, who do they send? Firemen, emt, police. Because they have different roles to play. Why couldn't you have a mental health response unit as a subset of another department or as it's own thing that if needed can have a police escort?
@@papercut7141 I do believe good cooperation between police and other groups is key, but appearantly it goes wrong with mental health work sometimes as some police officers don't seem to work wel with social workers (mentioned in the video). I agree that at a fire of a a serious accident police presence is An added benefit, but they are usually there for crowd control, so it feels like a different situation to me. With mental health situations their presence might make things worse as having a uniformed officer in the room Puts more pressure on the person. This would be out of the control of the officer. But yeah, it is not that a police officer should not be allowed in those situations , I agree with you there. They just need to figure out when police is needed and how.
Great video! I'm not one to comment, but I think you did a great job presenting the issue. I know I would not want to see police officers at my door if there was some mental health crisis going on. Keep up the great work! :D
The comments here are, for the most part, completely delusional. We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight when, in reality, very few have risked their lives or taken on the responsibility of mitigating an unknown situation using very little evidence when the threat of violence is highly, highly likely. A threat or likelihood of violence must be met by atleast an equal amount of deterrence. We have already seen mental health councilors, unarmed, murdered on site in major cities where this has been attempted. We don't have a police force made up of super heroes, nor do we have a populace of angels. The best we can do is prevent violence from spreading, and that includes the big bad law enforcement. People say things like "one mistake is too many" but that is an incredibly naive and ignorant mentality. Reality doesn't work this way.
YES!! As an ex-social worker, I cringe when I hear of cops being called to deal with people with mental health crises. That is not a police job, they aren't trained for it, and more likely than not, if the distressed person exhibits any violence, things will end in tragedy. Meanwhile, our local psychiatric hospital no longer has an emergency room, so people with mental health crises are being shunted off to medical ERs. De-institutionalizatin is a massive failure, but nobody seems to get that.
The fact is, those calls can be extremely dangerous for both the "subject" _and_ the police responding. Just a reality. Having a trained licensed mental health professional accompany them would likely be the best solution. However the government will claim they don't have the funding for that (even though they always seem to find money when they need it for less important things). Priorities 🤷♀️
It's about risk. Who givesa shit about people virtue signaling with muh traumatizing when compaired to other options it reduces risk to the person and others. And it's funny that despite people saying others are basing support of the police is based on one bad episode with a schizophrenic, they're pretending like police get called and only act harshly to someone with mild depression. Most of the calls and most of their heavy-handed actions are with the most mentally ill and riskiest people. That fact is why this virtue signaling only causes negative social outcomes
Trying to say that police should not carry weapons completely ignores the fact that Americans are much more violent and confrontational towards police in general than those in the countries mentioned and American criminals are armed and fight back a vast majority of the time. I agree cops shouldn’t be handling mental health calls, but don’t kid yourself in saying that the people want it another way. I live in Texas and my state has lead the way in mental health training and the creation of mental health policing units that are extremely highly trained.
A huge issue that you run into if police aren't involved is a good portion of people who avoid seeking help don't want the help. And you don't need much training to comprehend when the patient states, "I am going to kill myself" as an omission of imminent risk to self which needs to be addressed and not just "deescalated." But police have the legal authority (via a judge in the state of Texas) to place an involuntary hold. Whether you agree or disagree with involuntarily taking someone to a psych hospital who is suicidal is a different discussion, but police are the quickest route (in the state of Texas) to "force" someone into treatment. Ironically the vast majority of the patients I see who are involuntary have told a licensed professional that they are suicidal and then that professional calls a police officer to place them on an Emergency Detention Order (EDO). One is for the perceived safety of the patient and the other reason is a liability... No licensed professional wants that liability if a patient ends up taking their life. Police are a necessary piece because of the legality involving EDOs. Add in rural areas where the hospital I work for takes patients upwards of 3.5 hours away. Who is driving this person who is in crisis? Do you want to strap that patient with a 3.5-hour ambulance ride? Police in rural areas is the defacto drivers for these involuntary patients being sent to psych hospitals (at least out here in West Texas). Do I have issues with how the system functions? Sure. But that change is far more complicated than these proposed 3 options. In fact, out in West Texas, we have local mental health authorities who often assess patients without the need for police intervention (unless the patient does become dangerous or an EDO needs to be placed on them). And these violent occurrences would happen on the daily. Sure, they might comprise a small percentage as a total, but anecdotally I would see these patients at least once a day, and many we have to turn away because they are TOO violent. Meth is a huge issue in Texas and that type of substance use often exacerbates violence. While I agree the presence of an officer can add to a crisis I have had countless people express gratitude for their experience with the police and the local mental health authorities. And there usually is continuing care, it is just severely underfunded. The local mental health authorities have these individuals on their caseload, but many of the patients either avoid the outpatient assistance, feel they are better after their inpatient stay, or are frustrated with the timing for outpatient care (the lack of psychiatrists in West Texas really screws this whole system up). And when I mention TOO violent I mean TOO violent. These individuals (while super rare and they are a fraction of mental health patients and patients with psychosis) have placed staff in the E.R. when accepted. This isn't just someone punching a wall. These scenarios involve physical maiming or lifetime injuries sustained to staff. Spit, urine, feces, chunks bit out of staff member's arms, being choked unconscious, sexual victimization of staff (typically women), stabbings, etc. And these are the patients that get through the door AFTER we turn people away. A state hospital usually ends up with more violent patients. Do I think this is a just system? No. But it's easy to sit there and think up "solutions" without seeing what happens when trained law enforcement is not involved. I am happy that here in West Texas we have local mental health authorities that provide a lot of the services this guy is talking about. It is not perfect, but the help exists. And lastly, you can easily point to other countries for comparison, but we have higher levels of violent crime in the U.S. than in those countries. It is an easy trap to make comparisons, but that on-site visit with a patient in crisis naturally has a higher chance of violence in the U.S. compared with most places in Europe. Our substance use rates are higher too, and as mentioned previously, these drugs often make the situations even more difficult and unpredictable.
As far as replace goes… I would bet on more pushback coming from paramedics, social workers and therapists in my county. Paramedics used to primarily handle numerous mental health calls in my county years ago. That was until 2 paramedics were murdered after a routine response to a patients house that suffered from PTSD. They refuse to go without police today. A tragedy involving a social worker resulted in the same conundrum. My mom retired from social services. I used to get off the school bus at her office building and I saw more than one person walk in with guns and wooden planks full of nails over the years. All looking for the social worker that removed their children. I think people might get back into the swing of it until something bad happens.
I was in 7th grade and had just attempted suicide by swallowing a bunch of pills. The cops responded and one was super mad because it was the end of his shift when he got the call and he had just dealt with me at the beginning of his shift as a runaway. I was put roughly in handcuffs while he angrily demanded to know why I did it and kept in handcuffs while I started vomiting the pills back up. Eventually he got another officer on site to hand me over that took me to the ER for treatment. Overall it was an awful experience during an awful time.
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Correction: Linden Cameron, a 13-year-old boy with autism, was not killed by police. He was shot 11 times and suffered serious injuries. Regardless, it was excessive use of force that should not have happened.
Also, let me take the opportunity to once again plug our new book that is out on preorder, which also discusses this topic: www.amazon.com/Your-Brain-Explained-Learning-Educational/dp/1681885638/
Shot 11 times and survived? KING.
Only 11 times
This should be seen by everyone. Well done.
I'd say the Shooting of Linden Cameron should be regarded as an act of [systemic] ableism. Therefore, Matthew Farillas should be punished for it.
I got arrested and tasered 2 times in one day after someone abused me.
I was once violently beaten by police officers for going to the emergency room and requesting an antipsychotic that my health insurance had decided they wouldn't cover any longer without telling me. So i discovered that when i tried to refill it. My sister and a friend brought me to the hospital because after a few days of not having the medicine i was having episodes of psychosis (visual and auditory hallucinations)
Before the police showed up, the most aggressive i became was when asked if i would consent to spending several days in the psychiatric unit and i said "no, fuck off with that."
The police had the nurses cycle the two other patients out of the room i was in, and then entered the room. They told me that they were going to make me stay in the psychiatric unit. I told them that it would cause me to lose my job.
Within ten minutes they had broken two of my ribs and my nose, stabbed me in the ass with a syringe of geodon and antivan, and tied me to a gurney. They charged me with "Inducing panic" (causing the evacuation of a public place) because of when they had the other two patients leave the room, because when they were beating me i was talking shit to them.
I woke up two days later totally unaware of the criminal charge. The doctors discharged me as they determined i was not a risk to anyone or myself. Because i was upset about being assaulted and drugged, i refused any medication, consented to nothing (thus i signed no paperwork) and charged me with a misdemeanor that carried a six month jail time sentence with it.
They beat me because i wanted to leave the hospital and they didn't want me to, and because i didn't hurt anyone (not even the police who were beating me and covered in my blood) and charged me with the only crime they could make it look like I was guilty of. As a result i have absolutely zero faith in mental health treatment.
When I get background checks, this misdemeanor is described as "Inducing panic- terroristic threat." And it has cost me several jobs.
This was *inside a hospital* that *had social workers* and is as accurate as i can possibly tell this story.
Police are fucking *terrible* as an option for mental health.
"Hey bro i got a mouse problem, what do you think i should do?"
"Oh, napalm your home."
I am so sorry that you had to experience that...
I had a friend call a wellness check when they couldn't get in touch with me. I was depressed, had major health problems and my well meaning friend wanted to ensure that I was alive.
3 police officers arrived. 1 broke into my house and pointed a gun at my dogs while I came out of the shower in nothing but a robe wondering wtf was going on. They told me that I needed to come outside. I told them that I had no problem doing so but I needed to put clothes on first.
All 3 of them grabbed me, slammed me onto the ground, pulled me up by my wrists, slammed my face into the wall, literally dragged me to a police car. My naked body was exposed to my entire neighborhood. My wrist was broken. I was bruised from head to toe.
These cops couldn't take me to jail because I hadn't committed any crimes so they used the wellness check call to have me taken to a mental health facility. Luckily the place they took me didn't have a medical unit so legally due to my health conditions I had to be taken to the hospital and medically cleared first or transferred to a medical & mental health facility after the hospital. The doctor at the hospital knew me. He knew I wasn't in crisis or suicidal. My dad called and the doctor agreed to release me to my dad. If this series of events hadn't happened I would have spent a minimum of 3 days in the psych ward, lost my job, who knows what would have happened to my dogs, I was already broke from all of my health problems. If I lost my job & went days to weeks without working I would have lost my house.
So cops showed up to make sure that I was safe, not injured and alive. Since I was, they decided to ensure I was injured, harmed, and had I fought back, killed. How does this make any sense??
I was brutalized by police last year for a mental health crisis. Taken to the hospital, strapped down, treated like a drug addict with blood work, kept in isolation and then released in the morning. I was not on drugs. I did nothing wrong. But the whole system clearly set on treating me like a caged animal because I was unwell. Don't involve police or 911 if your having a mental health crisis. They will only hurt you.
easy a Muslim manipulating staff to handcuff you
That is outrageous! So sorry that happened to you.
@@teresacastillo1783 what does religion have to do with this... Not everyone's in the islamic community is like this, cause it can be anyone no matter the group, dont judge people that fast based on which religion, skin colour,.. etc. That's not how it works.
Imagine being thrown on the floor and put into handcuffs during a psychotic episode where you’re already scared and not especially violent
Couldn't cope with that when healthy.
most people have no idea of what a psychotic episode would be like to experience. i've been caing for someone schizophrenic for six years and i still have no idea what her experience is like, internally.
Or having guns pointed to your head for having to restrain a violent autistic child. After they realize what your doing,l. You'll get the..... " Sorry, well try to be better aware next time."
Our system is broken because 911 was programmed in our minds as the save all. For those that don't know New Jersey State Police does a great job with mental illness every state should shadow that model. LOE environment need to change. I met many officers who was assigned to mental health facilities and still abuse persons with many issues. Ofc today believe that they should not have to deal with person(s) with crisis. Every ofc after hired should take psychology, sociology, included in the in-service training. Police should still respond to mental health crisis.
Then what is YOUR solution? These folks NEED to be controlled, somehow! For their sake AND the rest of us!
Knowing Better sent me and I really appreciate your candor and input on this topic. Algo engagement for the time being, but look forward to engaging in the comments.
It brought tears to my eyes. I lived for 25 years with MDD. Mental illness is viewed much differently than physical illness. I know that there are numerous reasons for the breakdown in the system. It’s very sad all the way around
me seeing the title: wtf no thats a terrible idea
me a couple minutes in: wait we DO that!?
And by the end of the video: YES, replace the system.
imagine this, it’s 4am and you’ve had a hard day and just wanted to vent. you text a help phone and they jump the gun and assume you were going to do something. they proceed to call 911 and say that you threatened to h@ng yourself (when you did not). then you get a knock on the door and see 3 male police officers (you are a teenage girl). they take you to their car and yell at you to tell you what happened. they then slam the door in your face and ship you off to the er just to sit there for 7 hours alone then be sent home with trauma involving police.
I have bipolar disorder type I with psychotic features, and depending on which department depends on what happens. It is always that a police officer or sheriff deputy shows up first, but some police departments will call EMTs. However, some police departments take the person directly to the ER.
i think there’s needs to be another separate response team for people in a psychotic manic state... I have had 6 episodes where i was psychotic, but i’ve never wanted to hurt anyone or myself. I am “high functioning” (when i’m not manic, 99% of the time) & am almost finished with my masters in biotechnology. With dopaminergic activation way above baseline while manic, i’ve always tried to get away from “the cops” (mostly because I know the mental hospital 🏥 costs a fortune in the back of my mind.) It’s scary to my past and future self to think that i can be in a state that isn’t full logical (i think logic & reason are the antithesis concepts to psychotic thoughts) but it’s happened and i’ve been tackled to the ground by cops for it. Tbh i just need a pharmacological intervention that induces sleep to “fix” my mind, i.e. restore my baseline.
What happens if your altered sense of self avoids this pharmacological intervention? Would you want people to be "forced" to participate in this if that patient's actions places them at risk of hurting themself or someone else (intentions aside considering psychosis can involve accidental imminent risk of harm to self or others).
In Germany the EMS handles Mental Calls.. works well, since we are trained in psychology and de-escalation...
Thank God for local mental health hotlines
That was really insightful, you know your subject.
One caveat: homeless people are not necessarily mentally sick. Some of them were victims of child sexual abuse and therefore do not have a family who can help them when they are out of work or underemployed (0 hour contracts).
I would also like to point out that some people will call the police on someone, claiming they are dangerous or suicidal, when they just wish to harm them (family members who are worried that their victim may make a complaint for child sexual abuse or conjugal violence), want to get rid of them (landlords) or just want to make their life more interesting and like on tv/social media. Even when a person is distressed, it is usually possible to deescalate. Look at the beginning of the first Rambo movie for instance (First Blood). So many missed opportunities to de escalate... Just sending in an empathic dog or cat may help... That's what I'd do when my father (WW2 vet and FEPOW) had a flashback: I'd just tell the dog to go to him, the dog would sense there was something wrong and would stay at a safe distance, and my father would snap out of it and come back to the here and now.
There should be officers with full arrest power that are primarily trained to respond to mental health calls and also deal with crimes relating to mental/behavioral health. I.e suicide, sexual assaults, crimes against children, crimes against vulnerable, those having mental episodes, welfare checks on the elderly, neighborhood checks at night (an established time period to check neighborhoods and ensure homes are locked and secured), Drug Rehabilitation Centers, Juvenile Correction Centers.
great video. too many people end up in crisis in the first place, and too many of those are met with fear, stigma, and violence instead of concern and ongoing support. i really think replacing police with specialized workers for mental health will improve things for everyone
Please have a discussion with Officer 401. It would offer points of views from different sides, and it would expose you to his viewership and Vice versa.
Agreed, this UA-camr needs to be exposed to some content by police officers. I was sent by Knowing Better and wasn't especially impressed by some of the assumptions being made here, nor quoting "studies" conducted under absurd laboratory conditions that don't mirror real life stakes on any level.
@@ccdecker did you not watch the video???? how the presence of armed police inherently invites violence?????? we can see that the results of those studies mirror real life...
@@miaurye1286 did you not read my whole comment???? how the controlled laboratory study he mentioned (but didn't cite) was about holding a toy vs a (fake?) gun during a fake, safe laboratory scenario?????? we can see that the conditions of the study does not mirror the unpredictability of real life or the training of those involved....
@@ccdecker Responding to just about anything while armed is allowing and escalating the possibility of violence.. there's no reason for that to be the case. If you've watched KnowingBetter's video , there's another study in there that proves this. Yes, things are unpredictable, but the cops are more a danger to the mentally unwell person than the person is to them.
@@miaurye1286 so what exactly do you expect police to do in a country where anyone can be armed at any moment? Just go into every situation with their fingers crossed they won't catch a gun in their face?
Or maybe even introduce the treat button last... Or take it away for awhile? Continue giving him Treats... But once he has trained then introduced a treat button meanwhile while still using the treats up until then
Yeah, I have major depression, and (extremely) bad panic attacks with social anxiety, and sometimes they last for hours and then my parents call the cops “to talk to someone” but they always just take me to the hospital and I have to sit in the claustrophobic white Florissant room for hours with people everywhere coming in and out and with the social anxiety it’s awful but it’s not the worst of it. Then they put me on the psychiatric floor with eeemmmptyyy depressing plan tone rooms, you have to have a staff open the metal window blinds that are locked up the see outside but you can’t get outside so you feel trapped, they wake you up at 7:00 and force you to get up from the hard thin gym Matt beds and make you sit in these awful cult like meetings with other people that talk about “coping” and everything mental health that makes me more aware and fall deeper into my head, and for a better example of how horrible this was… when I first came in on day one I was 165 pounds and by day 7 e when I got out I was 145 that’s 20!!!!pounds lost in a week, I was eating completely normally and all you do there is sit for real, I’m seriously traumatized to the point that I think I might have Minor PTSD.
The police have too much to do already. A separate set of personnel is warranted.
police are supposed to respond and assess, and mental health professional supposed to be the final arbiter, in Kentucky it's the 202A regulation/law
I’m not in favor of police should be better training and if that can’t be done then no cops on mental health calls
Quick edit: I have been hurt because of police when I was in crisis. While not killed… physically hurt and emotionally traumatized
I'm not even going to watch this video, I'm just going to leave a comment.
In a perfect world no, they are the last people who should respond..... HOWEVER in the real world it's how it has to be, who do you call at 2AM when crap hits the fan???? Not your m-f 8-5 doctor, you call the only people who are 100% obligated to respond and are always on call 24/7/365..... It's unfortunately a imperfect solution for a imperfect problem. We need Doctors and mental health professionals helping people in need and not armed peace keepers who can use armed deadly force to maintain public safety at all cost.
This is all around a crappy solution for everyone and everybody. It's a rock and a hard spot.
I think that this really needs to be prefaced with "in the USA". As a rule Europe / Canada and most other developed nations (also known as "civilised nations" do things very differently.
The answer is yes, and no, situation matters, I'd love to see a world with more special response with actual mental health professionals. This is coming from someone that well.. I don't have to imagine the scenario of them coming and taking me to the hospital.. and in the area I was in.. that's a 45 minute ride, and you don't get a ride back. once the hospital discharges you, you have to find your own way back. However, I really needed to be taken to the hospital in that instance, and they were very good about it. I've also seen it go the other way though.
Really I'd like prefer something like the replace option. In an ideal world.
How about we just envisioning a world with mentally healthy individuals? Just saying.
Can you make o video about TTM pls ?
I can assure you, the police don’t want this responsibility. It has been put on them with little to no training. This is a job for social workers and/or medical professionals.
The speaker is unarguably correct and has the very best of motives and relevant experience. However it an comes down to you living in a highly militarised, heavily armed society with a private industry driven health system. Until you deal with that, you are fiddling around the edges.
As there are all the videos of people about to jump off a bridge but police that are trained for that save their life
Great upload, thanks for sharing! See you around! 🎧🎵😎
This is what defund the police means. Not to take away all police funding but to limit their role to law enforcement and take funding from them along with responsibilities that shouldn't have been theirs to start like mental health services. Crisis lines should be funded to send their own responders instead of relying on police and then should also have funding to direct people to social workers who can help them access long term care.
I believe it to be a very simple yet complex issue. As i am in mobile i will put the simple cause, a cop is cheaper than a doctor, so that goes in the city and state budget. In some cases mental health situations are also dangerous as a person in not a well state of mind plus a gun can be quite a bad combination, and both of those are quite common on america. My only guess as to how tackle the issue would be to get mixed mental health workers and police backup teams as the situation is still dangerous and in no way american culture will get to the peace levels of UK and norwigean societies anytime soon. This wilñ take a hell of lobbying, occupy wallstreet levels of it as mentallly vulnerable people and their familirs are not that politically powerful. Hope i dont get yeeted
Of all the emergency services to call, why the police? Why not a doctor or a paramedic?
cool video bro
I agree with what you're saying about mental health care, and I support better police training and resources.
However, you lost me at the story of the guy walking through intersections who got shot. Yes, here in America, police shoot when someone who's disobeying and causing trouble suddenly pulls something out of their pocket. If you watch the channel PoliceActivity, they have plenty of examples of some citizens escalating things from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. I've watched police get shot when they didn't respond fast enough.
And you know why those other countries can _somehow_ get away with police not having guns? Cause they aren't likely to get shot by the citizens. This is America, not those countries.
For real, I actually laughed at the literal finger wagging he did and his little exasperated sigh about how sad he is that cops see people as threats (then basically saying this is the police departments fault). I'd like to see this dude go out in the streets and deal with the crazy shit that gets thrown at officers here every day and not come away feeling like you were a target for some people
You are literally 13:20 lmao, like cmon dude actually watch the rest of the video
@@genessab yeah okay, you cited the part of the video we were commenting on. Good job. Do you have anything to actually say about it?
@@genessab I watched the rest, and I largely agree with his points. Reforming and replacing police response to mental crisis with Crisis Response Teams and trained mental health response teams is a good idea. I like what they have going on in his example from Oregon. At _minimum,_ we should require crisis training if places are _still_ going to send officers to crisis calls.
But on this one point, it seems like he's being dismissive of why cops need to carry guns in the fist place. I already listened to his counterpoints before I posted the original comment. At the risk of oversimplifying, he basically asserts that cops don't need guns cause guns escalate things and other countries seem to manage without them.
Again, while that may be good for those other countries, cops in the US are likely to encounter citizens with guns. Even calls or stops for people who don't initially appear armed and dangerous, someone can still pull a gun. When other non-lethal options have been tried or are out of the question, it comes down to the officer's life or the citizen's who pulled the gun. Maybe this could make a good case for reducing gun ownership so cops don't have to be armed either, like those "other countries that somehow manage", but that's a separate conversation entirely. In the meantime, US cops largely still need guns.
“I’d like to see this dude go out in the streets and deal with the crazy shit that gets thrown at officers here every day and not come away feeling like you were a target for some people” Wow, well if that ain’t some r/selfawarewolves content right there. It’s almost like you’re saying the presence of a police officer may escalate a situation. As stated in the video, I did work with the folks most likely to encounter police and most likely to be seen as “dangerous”. People think that mental illness and violence go hand in hand, but that perception does not match reality. Studies show that people with mental illnesses are no more likely to be violent than the general population, but they’re up to 10x more likely to be victims of violent crime. Take that in conjunction with the fact that they’re also 16x more likely to be killed by police and we can see an issue here. You are perpetuating the belief that people with mental illnesses are unpredictable, that police should feel like they are constantly under threat, and that the best way to deal with that is to shoot people. Not every situation is safe, but damn, do we really need people who feel threatened going into these situations , guns at the ready?
You left out gun culture.
I’d sadly doesn’t just come down to poor officer training, which in deed plays a role. Gun culture in America largely spawns the fear that anyone and everyone could have a gun.
We have more guns in this country than people, and we have 330 million people. I think the latest estimate was near 450 million guns, and it’s probably more.
Sorry. The second amendment is important. If we give up any rights, where will they stop?
I say let’s do it. This allows so many people with Psychology degrees that do not want to go in for a doctorates or teach to have a job where they feel like they’re making a difference in a crisis situation.
Literally, so much potential
Yeah and it frees up the market for those that do want to go for a doctorate or teaching job. There seems to be a lot of benefit to it
I agree. Also, taking responsibilities and authority away from police, while still providing the same amount of service is a good thing.
I don't agree with all his takes, but I'm glad he started the conversation.
My best friend didn't seek help at a inpatient because he was told it would be Prison rules if he went to a mental facility, no phone, no games he used to cope or even a DVD player, Stripped of ALL medication (along with cymbalta, narcotics too but he was on Valium after seeing his brother killed and was told it would go on his record and he may not be able to get it anymore after they handed out the rest of the prescription)
He had a mental breakdown two months ago and to say it ended up the worst case scenario would be an understatement...
Everything needs to be overhauled, there's no point in improving the system if people are afraid of interacting with it because they see it as further punishment
Yes, i'd like to see a video on mental hospitals
Me too please
this is an awesome idea!
Yeah- me too!
Not only mental institutions it's any hospitals CIA vs weak people
@@TrevorJrHotkiss11 busy CIA doctors and CIA staff stealing just to study people
I felt so helpless a few years ago. We had a call involving a young man that had lost all touch with reality. He stole guns from all of his relatives and was keeping them in a trunk in the back of his pickup.
He burnt down his fathers house and he hid in his mothers house waiting to harm her. She was, thankfully, gone for hours that day.
He brutally tortured her dog with a knife and left.
Officers picked him up and took him to the ER.
Every single person in his family refused to do an IVC.
ER doctors pulled every trick in the book to hold him a bit longer and they + officers called mental health facilities in almost every state.
No one would take him.
Everyone knew that prison alone was not going to be good for him. He needed in patient care and intense focus.
Meanwhile people can have their 90 year old grandmother with dementia, who could not be physically dangerous if she wanted to be, committed all day long.
The system is in shambles.
In shambles is a dire understatement. Our system is fuked
Thank you for this narrative. It's reassuring/validating hearing the things that I've been trying to explain from someone else.
1:13 jokes on you no imagining required for this part
Every mental health interaction I’ve had with police has been only damaging :(
Same. I was charged with interfering with an officer, when I was only trying to get help.
Same
I'm in Olympia, Washington, and I struggle with mental health issues and let me tell you, when cops respond to a mental health crisis it SUCKS, but when CRU responds, you can often end up talking to some of the kindest, most compassionate people I've ever met. CRU volunteers also get frequent training days to help expand and update their crisis and de-escelation training pretty frequently.
I've also ended up dealing with police in Seattle, Edmonds, Lynnwood, and Everett, and they're MUCH better than Thurston County. The main difference so far as I can tell is that up north, the cops are required to take sympathy training and de-escalation courses. Even Tacoma has jumped on that band wagon, and whereas Tacoma used to be known as one of the worst places for crime and violence, the last few times I've visited, it's been pretty nice, including law enforcement.
When I saw the poll I voted for police response in mental health calls because my one experience with a family member was aggressive and unmedicated schizophrenic and the police handled it relatively well but I had completely forgotten about the people that are depressed and asking for help or people with anxiety that are in a panic. I also hadn't considered that the police aren't equipped to deal with calls like that. This is a great topic to bring up because obviously people aren't thinking about this in the correct way and I will certainly reflect on this more
Yes, I mean in some situations where the person is a danger to others police will need to be involved even if the person is mentally ill. (I mean, most school shooters are mentally ill but you want police responding there) But the majority of mental health calls are depressed or anxious people who are only a danger to themselves. Having a mental health practicioner in the seat of making the call who to send would also be smart in situations like psychosis where some people may need a mental health worker and some may need police. (Ideally in that case a mental health worker will be sent as well to adress the person and help them cool down as soon as any danger has been mitigated)
A huge issue that you run into if police aren't involved is a good portion of people who avoid seeking help don't want the help. And you don't need much training to comprehend when the patient states, "I am going to kill myself" as an omission of imminent risk to self which needs to be addressed and not just "deescalated." But police have the legal authority (via a judge in the state of Texas) to place an involuntary hold. Whether you agree or disagree with involuntarily taking someone to a psych hospital who is suicidal is a different discussion, but police are the quickest route (in the state of Texas) to "force" someone into treatment. Ironically the vast majority of the patients I see who are involuntary have told a licensed professional that they are suicidal and then that professional calls a police officer to place them on an Emergency Detention Order (EDO). One is for the perceived safety of the patient and the other reason is a liability... No licensed professional wants that liability if a patient ends up taking their life. Police are a necessary piece because of the legality involving EDOs. Add in rural areas where the hospital I work for takes patients upwards of 3.5 hours away. Who is driving this person who is in crisis? Do you want to strap that patient with a 3.5-hour ambulance ride? Police in rural areas is the defacto drivers for these involuntary patients being sent to psych hospitals (at least out here in West Texas). Do I have issues with how the system functions? Sure. But that change is far more complicated than these proposed 3 options. In fact, out in West Texas, we have local mental health authorities who often assess patients without the need for police intervention (unless the patient does become dangerous or an EDO needs to be placed on them). And these violent occurrences would happen on the daily. Sure, they might comprise a small percentage as a total, but anecdotally I would see these patients at least once a day, and many we have to turn away because they are TOO violent. Meth is a huge issue in Texas and that type of substance use often exacerbates violence. While I agree the presence of an officer can add to a crisis I have had countless people express gratitude for their experience with the police and the local mental health authorities. And there usually is continuing care, it is just severely underfunded. The local mental health authorities have these individuals on their caseload, but many of the patients either avoid the outpatient assistance, feel they are better after their inpatient stay, or are frustrated with the timing for outpatient care (the lack of psychiatrists in West Texas really screws this whole system up). And when I mention TOO violent I mean TOO violent. These individuals (while super rare and they are a fraction of mental health patients and patients with psychosis) have placed staff in the E.R. when accepted. This isn't just someone punching a wall. These scenarios involve physical maiming or lifetime injuries sustained to staff. Spit, urine, feces, chunks bit out of staff member's arms, being choked unconscious, sexual victimization of staff (typically women), stabbings, etc. And these are the patients that get through the door AFTER we turn people away. A state hospital usually ends up with more violent patients. Do I think this is a just system? No. But it's easy to sit there and think up "solutions" without seeing what happens when trained law enforcement is not involved. I am happy that here in West Texas we have local mental health authorities that provide a lot of the services this guy is talking about. It is not perfect, but the help exists. And lastly, you can easily point to other countries for comparison, but we have higher levels of violent crime in the U.S. than in those countries. It is an easy trap to make comparisons, but that on-site visit with a patient in crisis naturally has a higher chance of violence in the U.S. compared with most places in Europe. Our substance use rates are higher too, and as mentioned previously, these drugs often make the situations even more difficult and unpredictable.
I had the same exact experience with my partner. My only recourse was the police after many weeks- and they did nothing because they technically didn't break the law. But in order for them to get help they have to check themselves in- which someone who's not in their right mind will not. There's no system in place for this still- and it's now easier to understand why the homeless population is growing, especially in my city.
Do not ever feel bad for calling if you are in danger. That is something you need to do.
In the early 1990s I found myself in a car with a - completely unbeknownst to me - seriously mentally ill, undiagnosed teenage boy I had just been on my 3rd group date with. I had kissed the guy once when he decided to essentially abduct me. He pulled a knife, started driving in the opposite direction of where we were supposed to be going and threatened to murder me or take out both of us in various ways “so no one else could have” me for well over an hour. No cell phones then. There is still no reception on most of that mountain road today. If I could have safely called or alerted police then I would have. That was one moment in my life when I desperately needed them.
I personally wouldn’t have felt bad if something happened to him either. Not after the first (though not the last) “I’m going to get what’s owed to me”.
Even though I could tell he truly had serious MH issues when I looked at his eyes.
Long story short I talked him down by the time we reached the one turn around spot at the top of the mountain and he decided to drive me back to my friends house at 100 mph on a 10-35 mph road.
I requested that his family have him institutionalized after the fact. He was, several states away, and then he was sent to a group home for young adults with mental health issues on the other side of the country for 2 years.
Based on the things I heard that he did to the woman he married after he got back - it did no good whatsoever.
Back then everything was called a “chemical imbalance” but if I had to guess I would say that he was rather high up on the BPD spectrum - with other related issues - and fell into the camp of those most likely to resist treatment.
On a job related note -
I’ve been a 911 dispatcher for 2 decades now, I know exactly how broken and frustrating the system is. I’ve also been a long term advocate (long before I started my job) for an end to over criminalization, mass incarceration and to curb injustices that are known to erode rights, and increase wrongful convictions.
I would love to see numerous reforms.
I find it appalling that people truly in need of in patient care have little to no hope today. There was little hope in the 1990s, though there were more options then.
@@petraarkian7720Thankfully we are seeing more pilot programs today that involve both officers and mental health professionals.
We do not have this in my area yet but I have to say the officers where I live do pretty good.
It’s a smaller, rural area that is more spread out but is still based on community policing.
When it comes to the local yokels - they know who has MH problems, they know their parents, they know their grandparents. The same holds true with people who have physical health conditions that cause erratic and combative behaviors.
One of my former classmates from the first day of kindergarten on pulled out a shot gun and blasted through his front door when officers knocked on it one night. Luckily one of the officers saw him through the window and pulled the other out of the way.
They yelled at him, he put down the gun and they requested as ambulance. As expected (usual) his blood sugar was 45. I grew up watching police & paramedics chase him around my town while screaming about his blood sugar bottoming out.
They have dealt with a wide range of MH issues beautifully.
Officers involved shootings are incredibly rare in my county.
They do a good job talking to people and they will spend hours with someone that just needs to talk - if time allows. They tend to spend extra time trying to put people at ease.
Of course many call and request officers themselves.
They are incredibly mindful of combat vets with PTSD. Several of them were in the military/combat and they are incredibly supportive.
There are many more good stories that people do not hear about on the news.
That said - they still shouldn’t be the primary ones handling this.
We need better in patient facilities and we need facilities for the criminally insane.
*thankfully affordable insulin is finally being addressed
There should be a separate system emergency system for mental problems.
Yes
Exactly. And this is the main reason why so many are calling for defunding the police. Not to pu ish cops, but to fund services that are better equipped than what is heaped upon law enforcement to address. Cops should not be asked to intervene outside of public safety concerns. Real public safety concerns. Not a guy who has ptsd who is angry and needs therapy and is not proving a threat to anyone.
Could be possibly just extra resources for ems. In the U.K. that’s where the initiatives are starting with sending out mental health nurses with paramedics
Another point not really mentioned is lag. The only time I had police called for suicidal ideation I was asleep by the time they showed up and anyone with depression can atest to how much good sleep helps. Instead I was shaken out of bed, startled into a new episode of anxiety and depression, and had to explain to them that I had an off day and all I really wanted was to go back to bed please.
I like the CAHOOTS model a lot - medics in case there are overdoses, suicide attempts or other immediate health concerns, partnered with crisis workers, social workers, or therapists to connect with community resources and provide follow up, as well as make sure the medics are handling the situation well. Would love to see this in more places!
What happens if the potential patient does not want help but still actively wants to kill themself?
I would too but I (have been a 911 dispatcher *for 2 decades) know zero paramedics or social workers that would go along with it due to cases in my county where social workers and paramedics were murdered by someone experiencing a mental health crisis.
They would be more likely to do teams with a variety of people that can offer support.
I hate to use dictionary form definitions but Police are "an organized nonmilitary force for maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime and enforcing the laws"
In no part of that definition can we extract that they should have the duty of responding to mental health crisis unless, of course and it should go without saying, as a by-product of said mental health crisis, a crime is committed, and they wouldn't be responding to the crisis itself, but the crime committed.
So I would be all for skipping right to step 3 and replace all Police intervention in mental health crisis in favor of professionals in the field.
So how does someone get help if they don't want it and they want to actively kill themself? This becomes a legal issue the moment we value someone's life more than their personal freedoms in that crisis. We need a law enforcement official to be part of the process which qualifies for your definition.
How about when the person turns hostile towards fire/EMS and attempts to assault, injure, or kill them? Seen it happen first hand on mental health calls that PD refused to respond and assist on.
What about a world where the police are professionals? 🤔
In the UK you need a degree in policing where you learn how to defuse fear & tense situations. They are taught to police using the peelian principles which is all about policing by consent rather than through force.
The reflective and open dialogue this video has created is exemplary. It's really nice to see an issue addressed in a way that doesn't make people feel like their being attacked and also gets people to re-evaluate their views. Thank you so much for this, and thank you to all the commenters leaving comments on what they believe and have learned.
Been in a situation where PTSD was triggered and fear was mistaken for anger. I did not go looking to get PTSD, i did not commit the crime that gave it to me. So, in the heat of the moment it's hard to accept law enforcement officers turning up. The thing is though, aside from who should turn up, I was glad that someone removed me from the midst of gawking people standing around watching me break. Thank you, you tackle some huge subjects on this channel and it is so important.
My dad suffered from combat PTSD for years when I was a child. He carried around a gun almost everywhere he went due to fear. It was always with him in combat, he received a rather nasty reception when he got home, and he didn’t feel safe.
He accidentally misfired his weapon while trying to get something else out of his pocket while at a parade in our town one year and the bullet went through his shoe.
Thankfully it missed his toe, and everyone else.
He stopped carrying it all the time after that.
One day I was glad that he didn’t have it because he convinced himself that a group of younger people were mocking him for going to Vietnam. Something about the situation reminded him of the group of people that attacked him at an airport in California when he finally landed back in America.
He went home, got his gun, and went back out to kill them.
I watched him rip the house apart while having flashbacks *typically after a bad nightmare and it was always in attempt to find explosives he thought he needed for combat* more than once but that was the one time I was truly scared. We had to call police. They all knew him and several were combat vets.
Luckily ended up talking himself out of it and just drove around for a while.
I have dealt with the situation that you described in the intro and to anyone watching this who is on the fence, the whole experience made me feel like I couldn't trust anyone when I was in crisis and almost resulted in my death multiple times..
I've been the guard at the hospital watching over people in for a 5150. Suicide watch. We were allowed to hold people up to 48 hours at the minimum, and in some cases up to a month. It usually took over 24 hours before they were taken away. People's clothes, phones, and personal belongings are all taken away. You aren't even allowed to go to the bathroom, the guard is probably busy trying to watch half a dozen people, so you can't even talk to anyone. And since you are in the ER, everyone is upset that you are taking up valuable space. It is absolutely dehumanizing and it is not okay or right.
Edit more info:
Nurses would stick an IV needle into the patient's hand and it had to be left there. If the patient tried to take it out then they would be restrained and sedated. The patients would also be sedated against their will if they were ever rowdy.
I was also told that this "offense" goes on your record and you can't ever buy a gun or have a government job. But I never looked it up for myself and I don't know if it is true
i have never wanted hurt anyone while psychotic.... it’s mostly a grandiose genre of psychosis, very comparable to someone on psychedelics.. in fact psychedelics have induced about half of my psychotic-manic episodes... (as opposed to a non psychotic-manic state which is amazing-creative-& productive.... although not sustainable)
I would love if the police brought me back from the hospital. Instead, when i get released i have to pay to get back home
I've had experiences with police responding to a "welfare check" as they call it here in three different locations. Rural, college town, and urban poverty area. None of the experiences were good or helpful. One ended in a hospital stay I felt was wholly unnecessary. Another resulted in verbal abuse and threats of sexual abuse from the officer if I didn't "shut the fuck up." In that case I actually did need to go to the hospital, but I was abused by the officer and left to my own devices. The third time simply resulted in an interrogation-detainment style suicide assessment while the neighbors watched.
Jesus, that sounds horrible. I'm sorry you had to go through that
Sounds like we have an officer that needs training in human relations! Very unfortunate attitude/behavior on his part. If he told me to "shut the f××× up!" then he would find himself explaining to his sargent why he has a complaint filed against him!
I did get into it with a bike cop on skid row once. He told me if I didn't like his attitude or that he wouldn't stop yelling at me, then I could talk to his boss! So guess where I was next morning?
He must have gotten the memo then! Because for the rest of my time there, he wouldn't even look at me much less speak to me! I made it VERY clear to management that his attitude was completely inappropriate!
I had a psychotic break last year and a Crisis Intervention Team showed up and cuffed me and threw me in the back of a car. Why? Idk. Because I didn't want to go to the mental hospital. That's literally it.
I think police stations should hire therapists instead.
There is always a stigma present in the society regarding being carried in a Police Van.
So, it's quite terrifying for a common person if he is being carried in a police Van for a simple episode of depression.
Completely agree. Having worked in the crisis intervention sector for several years in the UK. The parallels of problematic issues are very similar.
Lack of resources and lack of funding with appropriate training means we are failing many people when they are at their most vulnerable/desperate.
I did a vote on my Instagram last week if we should bring back public mental hospitals.... most said yes
As a french guy the idea of calling the cops to check on someone having a mental health crisis seems really absurd to me. Especially since ,well the cop in the US don't really sounds like used to not using the force. But I don't probably have a good overview on that part. In france I Would probably call the emergency services have a doctor on the phone who would probably send the firefighters, since they also do most of the jobs the paramedics do in the US.
The French system as many in Europe is incomparable to the US's one, also a social or medical systems that are so good in France and crap in the States.
Not talking about the fact of having a gun which is an absurd to us.
You, French are particularly good in improving your rights and system, chapeau bas :)
But.. improve your administration!! ;)
I agree with this 100%. Police should not be responding to mental health calls unless a mental health professional on scene calls for backup. They don't have the training or the ability to deescalate, and should be used as a last resort. Particularly, police don't have the ability or know-how to connect someone with ongoing mental care for their income level (or lack thereof).
@@MrCurbinator exposure bias, we're only ever exposed to the failures. "Cop descalates situation and nothing happens" never makes the news.
I've had times, one only months ago, where I've been suicidal and wanting help. I considered contacting a suicide hotline but was afraid I'd be ignored or had the police called on me, so I didn't. In spite of wanting to go to go to a mental hospital, I didn't, because I was afraid that I'd lose my job for not showing up. I was also afraid that the bill would erase all of my savings that I've worked to build, or put me in the red and render me unable to pay my bills. Months later, I still haven't been able to get a therapist under my insurance who didn't just say "I can't help you". Things are a bit better right now but the next year still feels bleak and terrifying to look forward. I wish it was just easier to get myself help without fear.
Even in spite of having friends and being in a relationship, I still feel like I have no one to talk to. Some won't take it seriously, some will, but only one actually knows how to appropriately deal with it, and I don't want to be more of a burdern to her than I already have.
Mental health is such a massive issue. I agree that police should not respond to mental health calls. But even if we could make that a reality (we probably will eventually), there’s still the problem of what to do with those people afterwards. I agree that mental health hospitals should not take 95% of the cases because 95% of the time, people are not actively trying to kill themselves. I’ve gone through an outpatient program because of a depressive episode and it did help, but at the same time, it was only 8 weeks long and I was lucky because I was able to drop out of school for a semester which was embarrassing but at least I could do it. I also had insurance that covered me. I had the privilege of going there. Most people can’t do that because employers aren’t too thrilled about an employee taking 8 weeks off to take care of their mental health. And even though I had the best case scenario happen to me, I still struggle with depression and even with all my tools and education and whatnot, I still did far worse in college than I could have had I not been depressed. The medications we have for mental illness work or don’t work for reasons we have no idea. We don’t understand every single variable in the equation. We don’t even know what a “normal” person is. We haven’t mapped the brain, we don’t know what’s wrong with some people’s brains and what isn’t. We have no idea what we’re doing. We don’t even have an objective measure of mental health. It’s all based on how we feel. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked if I felt better on some meds and worse on others. And every time I was asked that, I had no idea. The only real way to try to measure that that’s still not objective is to keep track of your moods daily and then plot them out and take averages and then see if the last 6 months were better than the previous six months. But even then, it’s not clear that it was better because of the medication or because of any number of other factors! I mean if you fall in love, you’re gonna feel better for those six months than you did during other parts of your life. If you lose your job, your gonna feel worse. If the weather is different, you might feel worse or better. Or it could be for some unknown other reason. It’s not at all clear that the medication is the isolated variable that’s making you feel better or worse. But besides that, why would I go through the trouble of tracking my moods when the definition of being depressed is not doing things I need to do? All of the treatments for depression require work, something you don’t want to do when you’re depressed. That’s why you’re depressed, you don’t think it’s worth working anymore. And all of these things are incredibly frustrating and also not well defined. What’s the difference between being lazy and self-absorbed and being depressed? Almost nothing. It could just be that I happen to be lazy or that I happen to be more neurotic than the average person. Is that a problem? Is it my fault that I’m neurotic? How do you fix that? Is it even a problem? I don’t know!!!
My point is that even if we could respond better to mental health crises, we’d still be unable to help most of them. Not without a lot of support and more importantly, money. One in three people suffer from some sort of mental illness. We really can’t afford to help those people. I’m one of those people. I suppose that’s why I’m so cynical, but to be fair, I guess I do have depression. It’s just so frustrating because mental health is a chronic condition. We can only manage it, there’s no cure. And that makes it very expensive. And most of the time, we can’t intervene until it’s progressed into its most severe stage which is people trying to hurt themselves or others in a desperate attempt for help. People don’t want help until it progresses into a severe stage, when they can’t function anymore in society. I suppose to be fair, we can help the majority of people be functional. That would be worth the investment. Most people just need help navigating a situation they’re ill-prepared to handle. They don’t have some underlying brain abnormality. But people relapse all the time and when they do, they need another few weeks to recover depending on how severe their mental illness is. Again, it’s chronic and it’s a battle constantly fought, not a decision. It’s thousands and thousands of decisions made over and over again, and it only takes one bad choice to set you back. And the more things you have going on, the more choices you have to make, the more likely it is that you’ll relapse. It’s just a matter of time. And the excuse of having a mental illness gets old even for the person with the mental illness. I don’t know. Managing the mental health of 100 million people in the U.S alone sounds so impossible.
But yeah, I suppose if we were able to have mental health professionals respond to mental health emergencies rather than police, that would make things better. At least we wouldn’t have people being shot when they needed help. I’m not blaming police, I’m just recognizing that police should not be responding to mental health emergencies. Guns are perhaps the worst possible thing when coupled with mental health issues even if the normal people have guns. And I don’t think police can be unarmed because unlike in other places, civilians are armed to the teeth in America. So if the civilians are armed, the police have to be armed too. But that’s exactly why police shouldn’t be handling mental health crises. That, and the stigmatization and the sheer number of false alarms. But it’s mostly just the fact that you can’t solve mental health problems with bullets or use of force. You can only make them worse even if you have the best of intentions.
As an autistic person from Minneapolis, I am terrified of police.
My wife, during a bout of psychosis cause by a medication, which was compilated by her BPD and C-PTSD,, called a distress line. She ended up being told to go to a women's shelter. That was nearly four months ago. I still have not heard from her. Her psychosis involved in believing that there was a plot against her, of which I was part of, or even the cause. Two weeks before she left, I had called the distress line, as she was expressing suicidal ideation and had them talk to her. At the time, I had stopped her from driving, when she said she was leaving and not coming back, while in a frenzy. For this. After she had left two weeks later, I revived criminal charges for assault. The problem here is that the police are not trained in mental health. These are complex problems. It is frustrating that criminal charges withhold from her the person who loves, understands and has helped her for the last 11 years.
As someone who has lived through this kind of interaction - and am still working through the impact that had on my mental health and willingness to seek help - I think it’s incredibly important to underscore that even individuals suffering with psychosis, the majority are not and would not become violent or agressive toward others. It is imperative in America that we don’t inadvertently “throw individuals with psychosis under the bus” so that the people without psychosis can have access to better mental health care. When these interactions lead to death, they are often because of a misunderstanding of psychotic symptoms, and we must prioritize providing safe, equitable, and sufficient healthcare to ALL mental health symptoms and perceived levels of “severity” of the person in crisis.
P.S. This is not in any way a direct response to what is said in the video, but instead a footnote, a reminder that even the most unfamiliar behavior patterns do not necessarily mean that someone is seeking harm.
For context, In the UK you need a degree in policing where you learn how to defuse fear & tense situations. They are taught to police using the peelian principles which is all about policing by consent.
As someone watching from Britain, I’m kinda surprised about the police responding to these kind of calls in the first place. I am in complete agreement that we should replace police in this situation with mental health professionals, it just seems the logical choice
For real, or if having enough mental health professionals as first responders is too much replace the police with EMTs
These situations can be detrimental and cause more harm and problems in the future for individuals already struggling feeling lost and scared who are most likely experiencing mental health issues in the first place due to trauma that wasn't their fault. I had the cops called multiple times on me when I was having a "crisis" situation (in terms of those who called the cops on me all because they didn't have the patience, skills, etc to just give me some support and safe place by listening to me and showing love). Both times I ended up being handcuffed and transported to the hospital all because I didn't want to go with them. Those situations changed me for life.
Yes, there should be counselors of some sort that go with police to mental health calls or, if the person is not being violent, just send the counselors themselves, with the option of calling the police if they really have to. Often, it is very easy to calm them down, if you know how. But the police are not trained to do that, they are trained to be hard ass and respond to problems with "crushing force."
The problem is that most of the funding goes, not to the mental health care system, but to the police system. So that is where they get what little psychological services they get.
The way I see it, the police should only be the ones to respond to mental health calls when there is a credible threat of violence, or when there are no other options.
And even so, mental health response training should be a mandatory requirement in training before they can get their badge.
Sadly, viability of an option depends on its 'economic' contribution to wealth of those supporting the authority, rather than how really it solves the problem. For example, if you make a federal mandatory university degree "psychiatric policing", you will get some unusual lobbyist support.
I agree with you, but increasing the professionalism of ground level municipal employees means increasing funding, not just requiring more out of applicants. Ij fact, our standards for new applicants are selectively lowered depending on the applicant's demographaphy. We can't defund the police while also wanting them to be better educated, more empathic, and less over-worked. And disarming them is not a solution either.
9:40 here you dont even get a single bus ticket when it takes two to get anywhere 😡
Amazing, came here from Knowing Better, another great channel too, this opened my eyes far more than ever before, my applause to you.
Cops are some of the worst responders I can imagine for mental health calls. I want the cops to show up if someone is being robbed, or threatened physically, or if a criminal investigation needs to happen. I definitely don't want them to show up because someone is having an off day.
Hear hear! Amen to that, man. 👍
Personal opinion, ABSOLUTELY NOT. If the person doesn't have the absolute BEST relationship with law enforcement that could easily make the problem much worse
I am always late to the game so I just read last year's NYT Bestseller Hidden Valley Road, Inside the mind of an American Family.
Mental health was never really on my radar until I started living in Southern California where the streets are littered with houseless people. Many strike me as needing mental health care, but being houseless for some time would cause a mental health crisis. Yes then I see the police dealing with them, so in my view Police are not trained nor are they social workers. We must find a better solution, and should not disregard creating group homes for mental health candidates, transparency is a must of course.
This video speaks to me, thank you.
Outstanding video - thank you for this thoughtful approach.
Your voice is so soothing to listen to
I completely agree with the first situation, it’s should be paramedics that come to your home but what if someone is on a bridge and need force to keep them safe then police should handle that
If 5% of the time mental crisis calls are about someone who is armed or violent, that is not insignificant. It seems to me that mental health professionals should be the ones responding to mental health crises, BUT police should be notified and be standing by, at a distance, in case they are needed. The mental health professional should carry a signaling device to alert police if they are needed.
Yeah, one of my friends has really bad experience with being taken back to hospital by the police which were way more violent than needed. My friend is only a flight risk, not an agression risk. (UK comment)
The other thing I think about is statements and domestic abuse cases, MH professionals could have such a good role in taking statements compassionately from scared and traumatised victims, instead of putting that as another role on police officers
This was an amazingly educational and well put together video. Im currently working with a group where I live, on issues of social equity around policing and I definitely need to share this with them. Thanks so much for this resource!
CAHOOTS: Eugene, Oregon. Google it.
This video is awesome.
What we forget is that we have a massive amount of Reactionaries who would rather shell out more of their tax money for more cops and jails in order to lock people up behind bars instead of ever having to look at them out in public ever again.
You can’t forget that. Not if you have been slightly paying attention.
America is a hyper carceral nation.
I get frustrated with some fellow lefties because they have helped increase over criminalization and mass incarceration over the years with the support of overly simplistic narratives - belief in pseudoscience and even conspiracy theories.
I’ve never been a fan of the overly simplistic radical feminist narrative that every criminal act directed at a woman or child is the result of a man seeking power and control.
The Duluth Model used in DV/IPV cases is based on radfem theory but it was created by a theologian. It has several issues.
Among them is the tendency to willfully and blatantly ignore poverty, structural racism, addiction, mental health problems, etc…
If you refuse to acknowledge or focus on these concerns and the role they play - you are doing no favors for anyone. The same behaviors will be seen in the next relationship, and the next…
Feminist law professor Aya Gruber wrote an excellent book called The Feminist War on Crime that beautifully lays out the adoption of hyper carceral mindsets within feminism during my childhood and teen years - though carceral attitudes among some groups of feminists goes back much further.
It happened during a period and climate much like today. One swirling with an explosion in pseudoscience, bad ideas and conspiracies.
I’ve gotten disheartened because almost every group pushing for court - prison reforms that I largely support has also thrown in pseudoscience that is known to increase injustices/false accusations and wrongful convictions.
🤷♀️ I’m glad more people are back to acknowledging numerous issues, as they were during the 70s - 90s, but there are problems in the ranks.
I’ll note that I don’t expect anyone to be able y fix all problems. Many people are resistant to help - treatment but you have to at least acknowledge that other factors can play a role and try to mitigate in some way.
Could paramedics be used as an emercency response to a mental health crisis instead of police?
I love CAHOOTS. I have used them in the past.
Oh wow! Mind sharing a bit about your experience?
@@neurotransmissions Absolutely! I was homeless for 10 years in Eugene in my 20s. I had many a mental health crisis and used White Bird many times (they are the people that run CAHOOTS). I was in a bad spot with a domestic violence situation and called the cops. They called CAHOOTS to take me to a shelter. There was also a time when I was having a really bad time, got really drunk, didn't feel safe riding my bike home, and needed to get back to the place I was staying, so I called them. They said, "We don't normally do that but we will take you to your place" They loaded me and my bike in the van and took me back to my camp trailer. I have called them for other people as well to be taken to the crisis hospital and to the alcohol detox center. They really are wonderful. Most of the police know when, and do call, CAHOOTS. They have even been given a larger budget to expand into the neighboring city Springfield. Now, this is not to say all is great and mental health in Eugene is treated well. There are still people that need mental health help ending up in jail more often than not. But mostly because we don't have a robust system in place to help everyone who needs it. White Bird Clinic is a wonderful place for low/no income mental/physical/dental health help, but they are sadly overwhelmed. We don't really have the best system, but it is definitely better than most.
How about an unarmed branch of law enforcement?
While I am against abolishing the police, a concept supported by 15% of U.S. Americans (33% under 35 years old), I do see sense in minimizing their use, and the use of force by them.
There are some few psychiatric disorders that pose such a threat to others that use of force, policing, and prisons will be a necessary component of containing them, even in an equitable society with all needs met.
However, for the vast majority of psychiatric disorders, the tools to reduce harm (without causing more) are there, as I am convinced.
Which specific psychiatric disorders are the ones that pose a threat to others?
@@neurotransmissions From the popular literature I’ve seen anti-social personality disorder (see also callous and unemotional child), and pædophillic sexuality disorder seem like the most correlated to danger to others (by my opinion), but oppositional defiant disorder, and intermittent explosive disorder, and some other mood, personality, and impulse control disorders are cited in incidents of threat to others.
Disorders, even the ones above, do not deterministically make anyone dangerous or dangerously anti-social, but sometimes incidents of dangerous or anti-social conduct (that are codified by society as crimes) can be traced to a persistent or untreated disorder, even when the crisis call is not explicitly a mental health call. The mental health component that makes the crime in question implicitly a psychiatric issue.
While there is hope with the new science emerging on how to manage these disorders successfully, I strongly suspect that it takes a court order or removal from the community to get a select few to seek or comply with treatment for others' safety (within due process and dignity).
Such a great video. Thank you for your work.
Got send here by Knowing Better and I am not disappointed. Great video and it is one of the few that I've seen which discusses the research on having or handling a gun and the chance of An aggressive outcome.
I find the idea that mental health workers might be in danger if there is no police present An odd argument. I would assume that they are trained and experienced in handling People who are becoming aggressive in an erratic state. More than a police officer would be.
Don't really understand why this is always presented as an either or thing. When there's a car wreck, who do they send? Firemen, emt, police. Because they have different roles to play. Why couldn't you have a mental health response unit as a subset of another department or as it's own thing that if needed can have a police escort?
@@papercut7141 I do believe good cooperation between police and other groups is key, but appearantly it goes wrong with mental health work sometimes as some police officers don't seem to work wel with social workers (mentioned in the video).
I agree that at a fire of a a serious accident police presence is An added benefit, but they are usually there for crowd control, so it feels like a different situation to me.
With mental health situations their presence might make things worse as having a uniformed officer in the room Puts more pressure on the person. This would be out of the control of the officer.
But yeah, it is not that a police officer should not be allowed in those situations , I agree with you there. They just need to figure out when police is needed and how.
Great video! I'm not one to comment, but I think you did a great job presenting the issue. I know I would not want to see police officers at my door if there was some mental health crisis going on. Keep up the great work! :D
The comments here are, for the most part, completely delusional. We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight when, in reality, very few have risked their lives or taken on the responsibility of mitigating an unknown situation using very little evidence when the threat of violence is highly, highly likely. A threat or likelihood of violence must be met by atleast an equal amount of deterrence. We have already seen mental health councilors, unarmed, murdered on site in major cities where this has been attempted. We don't have a police force made up of super heroes, nor do we have a populace of angels. The best we can do is prevent violence from spreading, and that includes the big bad law enforcement. People say things like "one mistake is too many" but that is an incredibly naive and ignorant mentality. Reality doesn't work this way.
YES!! As an ex-social worker, I cringe when I hear of cops being called to deal with people with mental health crises. That is not a police job, they aren't trained for it, and more likely than not, if the distressed person exhibits any violence, things will end in tragedy. Meanwhile, our local psychiatric hospital no longer has an emergency room, so people with mental health crises are being shunted off to medical ERs. De-institutionalizatin is a massive failure, but nobody seems to get that.
The fact is, those calls can be extremely dangerous for both the "subject" _and_ the police responding. Just a reality. Having a trained licensed mental health professional accompany them would likely be the best solution. However the government will claim they don't have the funding for that (even though they always seem to find money when they need it for less important things). Priorities 🤷♀️
It's about risk. Who givesa shit about people virtue signaling with muh traumatizing when compaired to other options it reduces risk to the person and others. And it's funny that despite people saying others are basing support of the police is based on one bad episode with a schizophrenic, they're pretending like police get called and only act harshly to someone with mild depression. Most of the calls and most of their heavy-handed actions are with the most mentally ill and riskiest people. That fact is why this virtue signaling only causes negative social outcomes
Trying to say that police should not carry weapons completely ignores the fact that Americans are much more violent and confrontational towards police in general than those in the countries mentioned and American criminals are armed and fight back a vast majority of the time. I agree cops shouldn’t be handling mental health calls, but don’t kid yourself in saying that the people want it another way. I live in Texas and my state has lead the way in mental health training and the creation of mental health policing units that are extremely highly trained.
A huge issue that you run into if police aren't involved is a good portion of people who avoid seeking help don't want the help. And you don't need much training to comprehend when the patient states, "I am going to kill myself" as an omission of imminent risk to self which needs to be addressed and not just "deescalated." But police have the legal authority (via a judge in the state of Texas) to place an involuntary hold. Whether you agree or disagree with involuntarily taking someone to a psych hospital who is suicidal is a different discussion, but police are the quickest route (in the state of Texas) to "force" someone into treatment. Ironically the vast majority of the patients I see who are involuntary have told a licensed professional that they are suicidal and then that professional calls a police officer to place them on an Emergency Detention Order (EDO). One is for the perceived safety of the patient and the other reason is a liability... No licensed professional wants that liability if a patient ends up taking their life. Police are a necessary piece because of the legality involving EDOs. Add in rural areas where the hospital I work for takes patients upwards of 3.5 hours away. Who is driving this person who is in crisis? Do you want to strap that patient with a 3.5-hour ambulance ride? Police in rural areas is the defacto drivers for these involuntary patients being sent to psych hospitals (at least out here in West Texas). Do I have issues with how the system functions? Sure. But that change is far more complicated than these proposed 3 options. In fact, out in West Texas, we have local mental health authorities who often assess patients without the need for police intervention (unless the patient does become dangerous or an EDO needs to be placed on them). And these violent occurrences would happen on the daily. Sure, they might comprise a small percentage as a total, but anecdotally I would see these patients at least once a day, and many we have to turn away because they are TOO violent. Meth is a huge issue in Texas and that type of substance use often exacerbates violence. While I agree the presence of an officer can add to a crisis I have had countless people express gratitude for their experience with the police and the local mental health authorities. And there usually is continuing care, it is just severely underfunded. The local mental health authorities have these individuals on their caseload, but many of the patients either avoid the outpatient assistance, feel they are better after their inpatient stay, or are frustrated with the timing for outpatient care (the lack of psychiatrists in West Texas really screws this whole system up). And when I mention TOO violent I mean TOO violent. These individuals (while super rare and they are a fraction of mental health patients and patients with psychosis) have placed staff in the E.R. when accepted. This isn't just someone punching a wall. These scenarios involve physical maiming or lifetime injuries sustained to staff. Spit, urine, feces, chunks bit out of staff member's arms, being choked unconscious, sexual victimization of staff (typically women), stabbings, etc. And these are the patients that get through the door AFTER we turn people away. A state hospital usually ends up with more violent patients. Do I think this is a just system? No. But it's easy to sit there and think up "solutions" without seeing what happens when trained law enforcement is not involved. I am happy that here in West Texas we have local mental health authorities that provide a lot of the services this guy is talking about. It is not perfect, but the help exists. And lastly, you can easily point to other countries for comparison, but we have higher levels of violent crime in the U.S. than in those countries. It is an easy trap to make comparisons, but that on-site visit with a patient in crisis naturally has a higher chance of violence in the U.S. compared with most places in Europe. Our substance use rates are higher too, and as mentioned previously, these drugs often make the situations even more difficult and unpredictable.
As far as replace goes… I would bet on more pushback coming from paramedics, social workers and therapists in my county.
Paramedics used to primarily handle numerous mental health calls in my county years ago. That was until 2 paramedics were murdered after a routine response to a patients house that suffered from PTSD.
They refuse to go without police today.
A tragedy involving a social worker resulted in the same conundrum.
My mom retired from social services. I used to get off the school bus at her office building and I saw more than one person walk in with guns and wooden planks full of nails over the years.
All looking for the social worker that removed their children.
I think people might get back into the swing of it until something bad happens.
I was in 7th grade and had just attempted suicide by swallowing a bunch of pills. The cops responded and one was super mad because it was the end of his shift when he got the call and he had just dealt with me at the beginning of his shift as a runaway.
I was put roughly in handcuffs while he angrily demanded to know why I did it and kept in handcuffs while I started vomiting the pills back up. Eventually he got another officer on site to hand me over that took me to the ER for treatment. Overall it was an awful experience during an awful time.