Tribalism Explained | Richard Wrangham and Lex Fridman
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- Опубліковано 10 жов 2021
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Richard Wrangham: Viol...
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GUEST BIO:
Richard Wrangham is a biological anthropologist at Harvard, specializing in the study of primates and the evolution of violence, sex, cooking, culture, and other aspects of ape and human behavior.
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Practical demonstration of how someone who is an intelligent expert in observing the behavior of animals similar to us, faced with an ethical dilemma, goes on to reason stupidly and simplistically like any other religious person. Without the organized (non-reactive) violence and confrontation generated by men we would still be living in grass huts as Camile Paglia used to say. It is amazing to see him ignore female non-physical violence and think that people, when debating a problem, are actually addressing the problem when in reality it is a social dominance dispute. Amazing how low political beliefs can bring an intelligent person down.
100%
Pure emotionalism
Exactly, thank you for this comment.
The risk of potential violence keeps men more at bay when communicating being more straightforward resolving tensions.
When you take any group of purely women it disintegrates after a while without presence of a man.
Plus they are not very able to survive in harsh environments themselves, only in our peaceful soft society.
it was quite demonstrated in the show "Island (or Survivor?)" divided purely into males and females groups. Females just broke apart within days, bickering, not being able to do basically anything.
Lex, haven't you observed violence from females where no physical blows have been delivered? It's less direct than male violence, and some would say less honest, but manages to wound nonetheless.
As a man id rather have a dude beat my ass before id deal with what woman do to eachother. Psychological damage is way worse then an ass whooping.
@@josephllinas2672 big facts u can heal from wounds but that mental could last your whole life!!!
Unless the physical ends with death, if it’s just an ass whooping then I’ll rather throw hands too
It’s probably true that stereo typically are on average men and women deal with conflict differently possibly due to socialization but it’s a bit of a generalization. I do agree that psychological or verbal cruelty and violence can cause lifelong wounds. Certainly shunning is a terribly violent thing to do
Repuatiation damage is the approach
"The 20th century was the least violent in human history."
Well we gave it our best shot.
I love listening to this man Richard. Awesome voice to just listen to.
I mean, how do you explain pathological violence in women? Sure it’s not as wide spread as with males. Yet still very prevalent in women. 85% of serial killers had a physically/sexually abusive mother. The most prevalent domestic violence coming out of the African American community, comes from African American women. A high percentage of heterosexual American men are in physically/emotionally abusive relationships as we speak. I mean to lay the blame of fatal violence at the feet of men is disingenuous to say the least.
Isnt’t the only “goal” of evolution for a species, for the species to survive? Anything else, art, music, knowledge, is a byproduct of that.
gotta do something to occupy that time😁
Goal is for individual genes to survive, not even individual organisms or species.
@@reallyhappenings5597 prove it
Evolution doesn't have a goal and isn't a goal, which you probably get because you put it in quotes. However it's purpose is the same as every other function a living form has, survival as you put it. Evolution is a byproduct of sexual replication, sexual selection and/or plain old replication error. All the elses may not seem fundamental to our existence but it doesn't need some justification to be. It just "is", as evolution just "is". As for Dr. Wrangham going on about male violence, there is no need to justify it. It just happens to be one of those things that is common to exist in males. But it certainly does exist in the females of other species; hyenas, arachnids, many insects, some fish, some snakes, etc. What bothers me is people like Dr. Wrangham who are generally incompetent about violence speaking as a moral authority against violence. Mainly because we've mostly been able to pull ourselves out of the violence inherent to the world and he speaks from a place of comfort and safety. I'm sure he feels similarly to us morons speaking on topics of evolution.
-But you know, Males are a Bug
-Cmon now, there are some nice things to males… speaking as a male”
I was dying laughing
If there were no men to "do violence" women would fill the void. This guy is living in a fantasy world.
How so?
You don't think that aggressive females would have an advantage in a world without violent men?
actually women would be and are much less violent. I am a man, trust me, we are built different, mentally and physically.
@@RSVPrr Definitely, but I don't think its entirely relevent to whether they would fill the void, I think "filling the void" means becoming more aggressive, not necessarily matching men?
@@RSVPrr You don't think men in the hunt, protect, and warrior role has anything to do with the development of different gender characteristic traits at a genetic level because of evolution? (Silly to say if there were no men) A warrior alpha female class would emerge to defend against the greatest threat in their environment. Such as not becoming food for predators, killing large animals for food and competing against other groups for food. That warrior class would need to become as vicious and the traditional roles males who faced the same threats. They would need to kill both animals and be more adept and vicious against a larger group of humans attacking them. Now if an all-woman society could find a garden of Eden of sorts like the Bonobos found themselves in through geographical separation from the competing gorillas for land and resources and other competitive groups they did not need to form as much of a warrior division class as the chimpanzees. Not all great-apes including humans were as fortunate as the Bonobo. So a more docile society could form but it would be the exception. The chips and Bonobos became geographically separated long ago. Hard to say what would happen if their territories were to overlap. What is interesting is that Chimps have learned tool use out of necessity as the Bonobos have not because of the lack of environmental pressures.
@@Paul-ou1rx that is a lot to read. I think I get your point but it's actually irrelevant. You are assuming the discussion was about men not existing in history completly. What the guy in the video was saying is breeding the male gender out during morden times not in the old days when people had to hunt to eat. In todays times there is no need for such nature of hunters and warriors, or a garden of Eden(whatever tht is) because humans live in towns etc
Wisdom does not seek war but is ready for it 💙
Males aren't bugs.
I think a more accurate statement would be "humans can and do have bugs"
But I do enjoy listening to this interview.
Violence is on its way down!! Let's go!
As long as Humanity disagrees on philosophies, things, ideas, that are vital to survival, there will always be violence. It is the final solution to settle our impasses.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of ways to resolve disputes. But those that cannot be resolved can and do devolve into violence every single time.
Violence is the Last Resort, final word. And there are no substitutes for dire disagreements that require resolution
Male violence is the reason we survived against predators 🤷🏻♂️
Good point. And it's how men fed their families/tribes
It is hard to disagree that violence is terrible. However, an aggressive behaviour (driver of violence) is utilitarian in a context of competence and for that reason one could argue that males are rather useful.
"Violencd is the absence of conflict." ~Martín Prechtel in his talk _Grief and Praise_
I don’t agree. Conflict is inevitable but it doesn’t have to turn to violence. Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.
@@pbohearn it is a subtle point that Prechtel is making. From your argument it seems you do not disagree so much as you have not yet understood the idea he is stating. Which is close to what you said, but goes farther and deeper into the heart. Conflict simply means disagreement, like the one you have here with my comment. Even though the disagreement is in your own mind, but not in mine. Still you feel it.
But if you were not allowed to express it simply and to listen to my reply, then it does not rise even to the level of conflict. It is suppressed. Perhaps you had been banned or censored, or cancelled. Those things may result from conflict, but in themselves they are conflict avoidance. In more traditional settings, you might have felt unable to say your opinion due to social or political or religious situations in our culture. Those things too are the ground of conflict, but not actually conflict in the sense of an open exchange of differing ideas.
So "violence is the absence of conflict," because if you are not allowed to engage in conflict then society cannot function for you, and that is what leads to the extreme of violence. Just as you say: Conflict, disagreement, may be inevitable, but it does not need to lead to violence. In fact there is no reason to become violent if we can understand one another's point of view, especially when we appear to disagree.
The name of his talk is "Grief and Praise" and is online. Worth a listen.
We came along way from the days of gladiatorial games, human sacrifices and widespread slavery like that of the ancient world
I breed sheepfor wool and an important part of improving the quality of the wool the productivity of the animal and the heal t h of the animal is what its all about. I consistantly remove up to 20 % of the young stock annually before they breed to control the variables that im aiming for. The rate of improvement is snails pace as the complexity of genetics constantly replaces the weaker traits that were important for the breed in nature.
Waring competition would have the same "classing" influence on the human population maintaining its genetic fitness which is important for our persistance success as a creature as ugly as this concept is.
Nature is ruthless and cruel from our perspective as an emotional animal but when it gets it wrong life itself devolves
Yep, I have been thinking of this concept for many years now. We classify nature it at its cruelest when it's try to improve the performance of the species through violence and natural selection.
But today most of all our actions are geared to the opposite.
It will backlash in the next century for sure and its gonna be nightmarish.
Why does this man have such a problem with the male half of the human population? This is the second clip I've watched of this guest.
If you were a Historian or an Anthropologist for instance, you would get it, is nothing personal btw.
@@somerandomcostarricandude7081 Is personal and I will confuse not stand for this nonsense. Ridiculous! Absalouteley ridiculous! 😠😤😬😣
Males aren't just violent, they're incredibly creative as well.
Very true. This guy has some great insights but he clearly has a narrative he’s selling.
Lex is really pushing himself too hard. Dude needs a vacation.
I don't know, I'm watching it again and he looks perfectly fine and composed on my eyes. But I've just came back from a surfing session with friends, so I might just be projecting my current mental state on him as I watch🙂
So do you by the sounds of it
Yeah, he needs a break
I’ve met people like him, well similar in their mentality. Specifically I know a neurosurgeon. To him, doing surgery on the brain is the most relaxing time for him, alike to a holiday. Not all of us operate the same. In saying that, Lex needs a holiday 😂✌️
Ronan from SG Atlantis is a good image for tribalism. Down with the Wraith!!
Negotiations and compromise amongst reasonable humans should not need the threat of violence. Here is the lapse in growth as a race of humans. Choose to collaborate instead of the threat. Is that too civil?
One man's reasonable is another man's extremist.
@@davidatkinson5858 Negotiations and compromise rather than fighting has great advantages for the development of a society.
Yeah but in the real world I'm afraid that negotiations and compromise are just words without the threat of force to back them up
Some males are so extremely vulnerable that they hate their own kind. He's like a tiny dog in a big dogs world
Grow up
I've been thinking our propensity towards violence is an evolutionary way of keeping us on our toes. There will always be violence because our species, in order to survive and become better at surviving, requires "bugs" to every now and then infect our populations and push us towards refining our laws and behavior as we learn our way through this weird and wonderful and bewildering experience of life. It doesn't make sense because it sounds counterproductive, but I'll try to explain my position:
Thousands or a few million years ago, especially when we haven't yet developed the predatory and manipulative behaviors we experience today, I'd like to imagine it wasn't that difficult to spot someone sabotaging. Our primitive investigative skills didn't steer us wrong. If an aggressor committed serial murder and went unnoticed, it wouldn't be in the aggressor's best interest to kill off a whole tribe because that prevents them from accessing mates, resources, the health benefits of having support systems, and the cooperation needed to sustain important infrastructure and whatever skills needed to benefit the tribe. It can also diminish their status and draw detrimental attention, so I'd imagine these risks kept the scope of our violence somewhat at bay. If the aggressor went unnoticed, there would still be the sensation of fear, distrust, skepticism, superstition, that would drive the rest of us to figure out ways of preventing such violence from happening again. As we reacted to the violence-and, of course, everything else going on in our hominin lives-in the process our perceptions of the world changed and developed into concepts to make sense of violence. Such as spirits, angels and demons, Good and Evil, deception, morals, commandments, laws, science, judges, psychopath, serial killer, terrorist. Vicious forms of violence and the genes associated with it-I'd assume would have, and still are, a rare trait-perpetuated alongside our corrective behaviors.
And, so, Good and Evil kind of lived in unison and evolved together, and both were able to benefit from each other. Good got to live longer, healthier, more abundantly and aware; Evil ensured it. The thing is, this dichotomy of violence and corrective behavior-Good and Evil-has no evolutionary braking mechanism. And, so, petty violence in small tribes has developed into The Global War on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), School Shootings, and legal systems capable of false convictions and executing the innocent based on the same mechanisms meant to correct violent behavior: superstition, hearsay, memory, bias, prejudice, fear.
And this is just reprehensible violence. There's also violence that teeters the line. It's not enough to sound any alarms, but it's enough to establish dominance against predators as we competed for limited resources and our very own survival. Petty violence, such as playful violence, is also an acceptable way of peacocking displays of physicality and sizing each other up while socializing, exercising, and establishing relationships. So not only are we superstitious and constantly looking out for predatory patterns, but we're also all capable of violence and acting violently based on prejudice, or flawed perceptions of reality, and traumatic history. So, this is why violence will always be a problem. But we're always doing something about it, and I'm optimistic technology will come through and we will one day inhabit a planet absent of our Earthly baggage, aware of our Earthly history, with the intent to make our ancestors proud.
I genuinely believe this is a point in our evolutionary history where it's time we as a species become a little humbler in this experience, or it's going to get very violent even for the ones who don't subscribe to the madness. I try to tell myself that I should only worry about the things I can control, but I worry about us all the time.
It would take a LOT of violence to create a world without much violence. Be careful what you wish for.
Shocking that the obviospoint of the perception of violence or violent acts not
"I came here for an argument. No you didn't. Yes I did. No. Wait a minute, that's not an argument. Yes it is. No, it isn't... you're simply disagreeing with everything I say. Right, time's up."
John Lennon sang the vision (Imagine.)
6:01 Paraphrasing: "A world without violence in the far future is going to be very different from what we do now ... We don't know how to work towards it."
If you take the possibilities of *Artificial General Intelligence* seriously, why can't that be the solution? And you can work on that today.
again tribalism i create a ai and u create an ai, i believe my ai is better than yours and we resolve it possible by violence I believe religon is/was an attempt to create/make a world without without violence but its inherently is a creation of tribalism In my opinion the only way that's possible is the completely get rid of our evolutionary traits, How do we do if u may ask is that to reach a state of enlightenment
@@rajathrkumar9686 If we understand how humans work well enough, again possibly through AGI, we could re-engineer the parts that we don't like.
Sorry, it seems like a conversation out of Idiocracy. When you will find yourself in a world where "silence is violence"! What are you going to do then, remove silence...? 😛
No one wants to admit it nowadays violence is necessary everything this guy has said in this videi proves to me i dont need to listen to anything he says.. Lex.. Stop trying to avoid confrontation and tell your guests how you truly feel..
God damn....poor Jason Momoa, why you gotta do him like that in the thumbnail. :'(
Lex the jujitsu warrior I sense was forced into violence it's in his body language on the subject head tilt
violence exists, it may not be good or bad in and of itself. it's possible the universe could not survive without it.
So great to be flies on the wall watching these minds grapple. We need to decentralize economic and political power. Big business may be as evil as big government as both feed off of greed and will to power.
Lex, you will be spared, as the nicest male on the planet. 😎😁🤩
We have to come up with more and better nonviolent conflict resolution mechanisms.
You can have violence in thought (wishing ill for others), word (being hurtful and hateful) and deed.
The biggest bringer of World Peace was the Internet.
I'd say global trade
Or tentacles monsters procreations
@@TL-rh1lf definitely global trade plus nuclear weapons. If not for those two, world war 3 would have happened decades ago.
I disagree. Social media which was enabled by the internet has been proven to cause mobilization of fascist forces, genocide and targeted violence. So no not the biggest bringer of world peace.
British comedian as the "pub landlord" did a great piece about "all the problems of the world are caused by men", seriously funny and poignant with a conclusion thatbwas actually quite pertinent
We’re not going to run out of resources. Which resources have you run out of historically speaking?
The game isn't over. Humanity is a sample size of one.
Pretty non stimulating conversation. A bunch of low hanging fruit what ifs
Tldr: violence big bad
yeah i think theres too many people that dont understand that theres different "types" of violence, obviously beating someone because they look at you wrong is bad violence, but violence used to defend yourself or your family from an attack, be it an animal or another human, i would consider good violence. also the fact he thinks getting rid of weapons would be a good thing is naivety at its finest, then we're back to might is right per whomever is the strongest physically, chimps do plenty of violence without weapons, why would we change if we had no weapons?
@@dmill6103 i would assume it would reduce the number of victims in total by making killing less easy. it wouldn't rid the world of violence but it would open new avenues and close others. imo; anything new is worth a shot, because this way we have now with weapons has been around for long enough to know it doesn't work overall and only allows mass killings and killings to take place that may have not happened if there were no access to an easy means of doing it. So i am all for trying a world without weapons; why not try something else imo.
@@JoshuaDracul the only way that already impossible idea would work is if we had 0 predators. I suppose u could make the argument that NOW that we've grown as large as we have as a species, it's very unlikely that we can be predated out of existence by any other animal on earth, obviously if humans never developed weaponry I don't think our ancestors would have progressed past chimpanzees, but again going with the impossible scenario of every single human being somehow destroying ALL types of weapons (which in itself is flawed... Do we ban stones or is this scenario simply induced species passification? It's impossible) there still remains the question of whether or not there's alien life, and I don't think it's safe to assume that "since they're space faring they must have 'advanced' far enough to not need violence". Disarmament does not equal better or superior. A poor analogy but would porcupines be made "better" if we genetically altered them to not have quills? Or chimps, would they be better if we altered them to either not grow teeth, or not grow as strong, or to not be as violent as they are? How would that affect them as a species in the wild?
@@JoshuaDracul to separate my reply: and as far as reducing the victim count.. I'm not so sure. No longer wild a single mother be able to effectively protect her family from 2 or more violent males with a gun, even worse if we assume all "weapons" (again even a stone can be used as a weapon to take a life) are banned, then she can only use her body in combat against her attackers? The idea that violence stems from weaponry is flawed, weapons are used for good much more often than they're used for wrong
@@dmill6103 i understand that, and there are many things like that which is why there isn't a clear answer for either argument, but i still believe having a world without obvious weapons such as guns, knives, bombs etc would greatly reduce killing crimes. i do understand both sides of the argument/debate very well; i think i am just to the point of wanting to try anything different from what the world has been doing for so long. That's my only opinion really; just to try a new way regardless of the pros or cons.
look up a video of a group of guys and girls on an island trying to survive.
This video didn't say anything about tribalism
Interesting discussion, but it doesn't explain tribalism.
War is the mother of invention. Unfortunately your life being at threat gives humans the most motivation to changes things. This guy doesn't get what lex is trying to say.
I assure you, he does, whether you see that or not.
@@reallyhappenings5597 Obviously didn't watch the video. I can assure he doesn't when he argues against the point.
Women are more chaotic than men in nature
This guy has some great insights but he clearly has a narrative he’s selling.
What narrative?
Leaning towards "Men Bad" narrative.... Maybe?
@@alexbriner8845 “conflict bad, men cause conflict, therefore men bad” Seems to me he’s trying to use his research to play mother nature rather than actually try and understand it.
@@alexbriner8845 There’s a reason two distinct genders exist in nature, and they tend to balance each other out with different strengths and weaknesses. This is true across almost all species on earth. Anyone who thinks they’re smarter than billions of years of biology and evolution raises a red flag for me immediately.
@@BT-yo3eq Maybe a study of evolution would help. Nature even reproduces without male and female. No one is the same. Heck, some people even have different color skin.
What raises red flags for me is people who complain about sexual orientation of others, when it isn't even the topic. But people like to show what hurts them.
#Bitcoin would disincentivize violence and the war funding mechanism almost entirely.
This man watches girl on girl that’s for sure
You can tell Richard knows his shyt 😂 just got his books now lol along with a Jane Goodall book about Hope lol
If humanity was created by Bethesda then those bugs are intended features because it just works blessed be God Todd Howard lol
Coincidentally, explaining tribalism also explains theism.
is there a history of lying?
tribalism is based on fear and fear is a motivation for a group to perform, plan, accelerate, or position itself in a hierarchy weather its inner tribal or global. FEAR
When a interesting guy starts talking like a globalist
If you look Physical violence from a male perspective, it is the best thing. It is the final solution to all problem and a sign of resilience.
From female perspective, it is dangerous because they suffer much more when physical violence are directed to them. But they play psychological warfare with each other and male are more vulnerable to those.
Whether something is a bug or feature is more or less dependent on who you are asking. If someone is more vulnerable to physical violence, then for them it is a serious bug.
nothing had been explained
This was two guys day dreaming.
This man seems like a misanthropic person.
All this fool did was answer questions with another question.
1st
Richard Wrangham, left agenda
Delusional much?
I had to stop once again on another clip with this guy because for some reason he hates men and men are all our problems.... Lets get real women have their problems also just as equally as men. I just cant listen to him and alls he seems to do is disagree with everything Lex has to say.
Lex needs sleep, this could have been a useful 3 hours nap instead of interviewing an extremely milk toast guest who added zero value.
Lex Fridman...Boring as always...in stark contrast with his guests.
The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools. - Thucydides