Thank you for being a voice of reason in the siege community. It’s honestly refreshing to listen to someone who has the ability to see the bigger picture.
"Sometimes the customer is an idiot". Greg I work at a grocery store and i cant tell you how many times a customer asks me where ice cream is when we only have 4 freezers next to each other
I've thought about that last point about "team players" a lot. I also am a boomer-zoomer, so I can relate to the weird feeling of not relating to the mindset of people within your own demographic. I feel like kids need to be doing team sports or some sort of team activity in general even band, these kids who sit online and don't do anything like that just come out as weirdly anti-social and incapable of having normal human relations because they grew up chronically online and never having to actually like, look someone in the face and figure out a way to deal with them or the situation.
It's weird how I used to think that online games could substitute team sports in a sense, but with no guidance from a professional like a coach, it's just 5 kids with all the freedom in the world thinking they're all top shit. No one gets put in their place and egos run wild. Glad I'm growing up smarter every day.
@@AndrewVaillant They can, its just most developers are shit at making team games actually require/force team work. In football (the kind rest of the world plays), your goalie stays in the goal post not because he cant attempt to dribble a ball all the way across the field. Its just that he has 11 other guys and 90 minutes preventing that from happening. While in R6 you can ace the entire enemy team and win within 3 minutes since you need to only click 5 times. So much for incentivising team play.
@@gamingrex2930 Have you played or watched people play football that aren't in a league of some kind? I can assure you the level of team play is similar to your average casual/ranked game with randoms and that this is the same for many games e-sports or IRL sports that are not played at a professional/semi-professional level and require some amount of teamwork.
I love this social commentary that you are producing on the Siege community. It's one that I don't really feel that can be compared to any other fps community today. Keep it up, man.
Happy someone finally came out and straight up said if you dont want to play Siege as a team game then just go away. It annoys me how many people play this game like it's a team deathmatch and then complain in all chat when the opponents carry out an execute and call them 'sweats' when all they're doing is just playing the game as intended
Honestly this whole “pros VS casual” mentality is not only a siege thing. It’s a modern gaming thing where people just continue to not get along, and blame each other for trivial things.
As a game designer doing live ops, I can say one thing the so called "community" voice over a "concern" in game doesn't align much with the data. And most of the time, follow the data is always return a better results than follow that "community".
The problem of following pure stat alone is . that it doesn't always reflect how the game is actually play. 2 example, in Dead by Daylight. There is a killer called the Nurse and the survivor perk called Object of obsession. The Nurse have the ability to blink from place to another, allow her to goes through wall and ignoring most mechanic that would help the survivor escape from the killer such as window vault and pallet drop. Her power completely ignoring any counterplay and make most matches against her completely one-sided. But that the thing. Most matches. She is a pretty hard to learn killer and that the only thing that keeping her win stat is always low becuz new people always try to learn her. The dev look at that and think that she balanced while nerf other killer that have high win stat. The other being the Object of obsession. A survivor perk that allow one survivor to always know where the killer is with the down side of having your location be reveal as well. Sound pretty fair until you playing within a group. In with case, your whole team basically know every move the killer is going to make. Where they are, they trap there put down. So if you playing against a good team with OoO. You spend a entire match without chasing a single survivor. And good luck chasing the dude with OoO if they half way a cross the map, wasting more time. But still often the one that die and possibly the only one in that match. So the dev look at that, seeing the win rate is low so they said is balanced.
I was gonna talk about the idea of Pros Vs Casuals overall in gaming, but I think I might cite your video in a portion where I talk about Siege in that topic. If that's alright with you I mean. I just think your video summarizes the topic of siege better than I could.
The community also needs to realize(Myself included) we are not proleague. Most of us cant quick peak like they can and cant setup/hold sites the same way they can. Ya the set up might be strong but the attackers also wont attack like proleague does. They just Shift+w and hold The fire button. I love banning ash and fast operators in ranked so it slows the game down.
Imo the sheer inability to play Siege casually is a core issue. I think a lot of people are becoming really burnt out on meta-heavy team based shooters you can't just pick up and play without suffering cause you don't know some bullshit like proper gadget placement on this one spot on this one map if the other team is doing thing A, B or C. There is absolutely no happy medium between shit like Siege and complete carefree games like Stardew Valley. I believe this is why Siege is kinda plateauing while other shooters like TF2 or something are thriving.
I always feel like you're on the exact same wavelength as I am Greg. Even when I don't agree with your take, it always comes off as level-headed and reasonable. Its heartening to have a calm voice in the community who says the things that need to be said, imo. and you make some great content to boot, keep it up dude.
This. This right here. I used to love Siege, was my favorite game for about 3 years. Played it non-stop, had a 3 stack, and we played damn near every night. Then Siege got busted (even more so than normal) and stopped being fun. Nobody wanted to work together, no one ever set up site, and if you soloed you almost always got tk'd because someone was waiting for a buddy or they felt like being an a hole. I've tried to come back so many times, and even keep up with everything that comes out, but the community around Siege killed my love for Siege.
Having played competitively before (like, really early though, S1 & 2. Against Laxing and those teams before they moved to PC!), I can honestly say the most fun I've had with this game has been in casual matches. Sometimes you use brain, other times you just vibe and don't need to think much. I enjoyed competing when I did it, but not near this much. Constantly trying at every chance got boring, whereas wanting to win but not caring went a long way to my enjoyment. Siege definitely has a "class war" as you put it, I think its overall fine, and even changes that target competitive (but affect the whole game) don't really negatively impact the casual scene much. At the end of the day, a bulk of players will watch or learn new skills and tactics, either through esports or tips videos, to get better at the game. In some way, though minute probably for the most part, this does tighten the gap between casual and competitive. But that does come with an increasing amount of players that take casual seriously at that point too. I hate being high ELO casual because I *don't* want to have to think all the time. If I did, I'd play ranked. They could try making casual less skill-based but that could mean the diamond players get put against bronze, which would create a facade of hyper inflated "class war" shenanigans. That being said, there's so many cool things I get killed by, whether its smart nades or good team plays, and I *love* to see it. It's mainly when I run into a very sweaty stack of players constantly treating casual as a diamond match that it upsets me from time to time. In the end, it's part of the game so I cope. At the end of the day I'm sure Ubi has trouble trying to deal with the dichotomy of the playerbase, but at least they do try and actively work on things. It was weird for them not to do a mid-season patch this season, but despite the whinging of some, they do try and fix things and at least make attempts to better the game.
Adding to the casual elo rating I think this is inherently bad. By adding a rating system you’re adding that competitive layer to what should be “casual” like you said kinda turn your brain off and have fun. If ranked and casual both have a rating system and you play both of them they quickly turn into the same thing, which hurts the casual community. It’s one of many reasons I left cod. Ultra competitive matchmaking in a arcade shooter regular playlists even though they have separate ranked playlists as well.
i 100% agree. No matter what your skill is you seem to always need to try your best to have fun, because you are always put against players near your skill level. so you can't choose to just chill and play some days without it being competitive anyway. but as you said if they changed the SBMM to be more lenient you would see a lot more of extremely low and extremely high ELO put against each other making it not as fun for anyone. now thinking about it I would suggest Ubi to add a preference to quick match to be put in lobbies with a challenge or with more casual feel. the higher skill players that select casual would be matched with lower skill ones that select the challenging option. obviously this is just an idea and would need to be refined if it were actually implemented. Either way i have fun most of the time and I am eager to see what Ubi does in the future about this.
@@KealGG Well here's the thing though, you don't have to think at any ELO. If you're playing to turn your brain off it really shouldn't matter because you're not playing to win either way in high ELO or low ELO. If you get yourself up there and then decide to turn your brain off, then do, nothing is stopping you from playing in a way you want to enjoy it. Another thing is, having matchmaking like that is pretty important for new player experiences. Quite literally it's the reason why smurfing is a problem, people at these lower skills/new don't like being put against people who are better than them but without trying to account for skill in matchmaking you basically have a situation where everyone is a smurf. Best way I like to describe this is, jump into an old fighting game with no experience/not being good. You will almost certainly get clapped on cooldown by people who are better than you and for a lot of people, winning is part of the fun.
Their efforts fall short every single time imo. I'd like to hear your opinion on the new increased recoil, which is now more random or the addition of the new emp grenades to around 6 attackers. I'm feeling strongly about both subjects, so pick your arguments carefully, as I'm coming back with a busket full of reasons both of them are underwhelming the least, if not straight up wrong.
This is easily your best video. Your talking points make sense, are grounded, with a amazing sense of how these topics stretch outside of siege in both other games and in real life. Stellar content as always bro.
My enjoyment of the game correlates directly with if I'm playing with friends or not. I had more fun losing as a team, than playing by myself and having the Ash/Jäger main in my team sweep. Most of my casual games now are just basically TDM. People hardly reinforce and play the objective in casual anymore. When there's randoms giving callouts or even strategizing, I'm reminded of what the game should be. It should be playing as a team. I think both sides want the same thing, to play the game as it was intended. Teamwork and strategy. Site setups or meme setups.
Developing a game thats emphasized on being marketed for e sports hurts games more not cus of balancing shit but cus its life is depended on having e sports interest which is a detriment to game development as a whole
I loved the final point made in this video. I'm no Siege sweatlord by any means but it really does annoy me when I go into a match and my teammates choose to not set up site at all and instead all run off to go find their spawnpeek / roaming spot because they don't actually want to play Siege, they just want to play point and click simulator with the opponent to see who can move their mouse to the other guy's head quicker. Then it makes the game 10x harder for the teammates that are actually trying to play objective because the spawnpeeker or roamer inevitably died and the site hasn't been set up correctly to hold off the attackers who are now maybe a player or two up on the defenders. I'll also often have opposing attackers get annoyed with me playing objective on defense because apparently moving between 2 or 3 rooms around the objective is "camping" and if I want to camp I must go play COD? What? The Siege community is so sad because this game could be great without players like that playing the game and ruining matches for everyone in it. It's not only on defense that I seem to have problems with people not wanting to actually play Siege because random teammates on attack almost never want to carry defuser, or co-ordinate a hard breach. They just want to Shift+W into the building and shoot anything that moves and then after dying 30 seconds into the round, get upset with you for trying to think about how you approach site. I somewhat understand their impatience because I also don't like attackers sitting on the roof until the last 20 seconds of a round, but trying to approach the attack in a smart manner should not cause your teammates to get pissed off with you because you're not immediately inside entry-fragging everyone and pretending that if you die, you'll respawn like it's a TDM so you have no reason to use any caution. Droning in quick match also pisses people off for some ridiculous reason? Like bro, it's a mechanic of the game and if I would like to have some intel instead of blindly swinging into this room and giving you a free kill because I didn't know someone was in there, it's a problem? The difficulty of finding a middle ground in Siege with the people in the lobbies sucks because you're either getting screamed at because you aren't playing the game like you're in pro-league, or you're getting screamed at for sweating in casual mode. I just want to be able to play the game, using the mechanics of the game, and have my teammates do the same to help me out, without all this stupid drama over how much of a try-hard I should be
in general it is bad for developers to mainly listen to pro players but Siege is one of the communities that has the most pro/sweaty player base compared to any other games and the devs doing nothing for most of the Year also helps because if they wanted to change something for the worse it will almost always take like 3 seasons anyway. the same is also true for a change that is good though sadly.
Ayy City pop !! Siege has a thing that other games do not have, where you can perform team play with no typing nor voice comm required. Like you can ping or wiggle your character to clear utilities before hard breach, Pulse and Valkarie pings for roamers and C4s, leaving walls alone for Mira setup, leaving the barricade on for Fuze, the list goes on. I know sometimes players would just ignore or not understand your intentions, but it is fun when players do get the idea. The developer has done a great job over the seven years to keep operators like this. Most operators could not work alone. Even they do, they are most likely to be weak on certain aspects. I was really surprise that even until now (I don't play much these years due to academic reasons), newer players could still get my idea with my pings and my character wiggles. That's something truly amazing, honestly.
Team Fortress 2 also has a similar divide except it's more of casual players hating on competitive players than the other way around. It even has the "company made bad decision which is blamed on competitive side" deal.
Fucking thank you. Finally someone said it The types of players in Siege that treat anything that isn’t meme strats like the fucking plague annoy the shit out of me. Especially when they screech down the mic at their team mates or rant in all chat about how you’re ‘sweating’ because you didn’t knife fight every round or play like Marley. Like, no. Not everyone wants to do your brain dead meme strats you saw someone on TikTok get an ace with. Some people want to play Siege to play Siege’s main gameplay loop, and calling people sweats for playing the game normally is just fucking pathetic. It’s like when people say knife fight mid in Valorant and complain when you shoot them. Like, no. I’m playing Valorant because I enjoy playing Valorant normally. Getting kills, using utility, managing econ. Wish there was an FPS game that encouraged meme strats so people like this could just flock to that and stop ruining tac FPS games.
"Someone that just wants to play for fun but understand the game at his core" Me, totally me, I don't want to be pro hell I don't watch eSports because it bores me to death but god damn I like to be good at the game and play it like is intended I make rotations I do call outs I use drones Etc And I get called a tryhard or sweat lord when I'm just, playing Bro is in the fucking game as a core mechanic like what the fuck are you talking about
Gregor, tbh, I wish I could play Siege with you, because I am very much in agreement with you on basically everything you said in this video. Keep it coming, man. Really appreciate these kinds of dives.
You echoed one of my sentiments exactly at 16:23. I play in Asia server and people here just don't want to take the effort to do basic things like reinforcing, droning, using cams, opening sightlines, using gadgets that don't go boom etc. Siege is such a complex, rich game. If you want to just switch off your brain, walk around blindly and press mouse 1, don't come into this game, not pull your weight and give the rest of us a bad time then call the rest of us "try hard". CS:GO is free, go play that.
Gatekeeping is annoying and puts off new players, cut it out. If they enjoy it, you are essentially the guy screaming at people to stop enjoying things.
@@garretth8224 There's a difference between a player genuinely trying to learn the game and people that just flat out don't want to play it as it is designed to. I'm not telling people to stop enjoying what they enjoy. I'm just saying go play a game, or at least a game mode, that suits your "style". If you like run-and-gun, not being a team player, fine. Play something that supports that type of style. Go for CS:GO, CoD, Battlefield, even Siege's TDM mode where death and tactics don't matter as much and you can just mouse 1 all day. Don't come into a game where 4 others are relying on you as part of a team, force your style on it, fail, then complain the rest of us are tryhards.
I don't think the two types of people are those who are pro or sweats, and those who don't want to play with their team (not explicitly stated, but implied maybe). I personally play in a 4 stack, however haven't enjoyed a lot of the balancing because it feels like they violated a lot of the fun for the sake of chart analytics. The win delta is not indicative of anything that kept siege alive and strong for so long. The balancing wasn't always good, but the game kept me and a group of friends constantly coming back every night to que into gold and plat lobbies. Things like removing Zofs withstand i think are whatever, but destroying a character like Jaeger, or the constant changes to op sights and recoil, i believe have big implications for the majority of the player base. Some of us like to play as a team, but play to have fun first. I believe siege is significantly less fun than it was before win deltas were used to change everything.
I have to agree. I started thinking this back during Hot Breach and the early days of Logic Bomb. They would suggest very specific operator or mechanical changes on the show and in the next operation or two that it would happen. That’s about when I stopped listening, first time I wrote it off as a coincidence, 2nd time I just stopped listening altogether.
I think you said it before, the game should’ve been sweaty and embraced the sweat instead of doing the whole “we can cater to everyone” situation. I truly think the game will have a hard resurgence ironically when the community falls off a bit
You deserve so many more viewers than you get. You’re one of the few creators who I see actually interacting with people (you’ve responded to me on twitter a few times) and seem like a down to earth guy. The current state of siege is frustrating to me because it’s been my favorite shooter since I started in 2017. There truly is no competitor to it currently and I wish the devs were more inclined to make more positive changes so I can keep playing the game I love for years to come
I definitely see where you're coming from here with your point, but when get jiggle peaked by guy sweating an ass stain into his chair in casual it's kinda annoying. I'm not playing at the level of attention to counter that shit in that moment. I'm playing CASUALLY.
I might have dipped from Siege ages ago, but Gregor remains that part of the grapevine that never fails to entertain and keep my finger on the pulse of the community, great video.
Always love your commentaries, they're so well thought out and put together; a rare sight in a time, where opinion and loud screaming is more valued than a well-articulated discussion. I especially agree to your last statement that the customer is indeed not always right and king and should be pampered, exactly then, when he is clearly not the target group, not the kind of person you would want as a customer; just like the statement 'every kind of attention is good attention' is questionable at best, 'any kind of customer is good customers' is too... Not only in Siege but so many other games and even movies; if you try to appeal to _every single person on the planet_ , you'll appeal to noone, you might aswell just sell tap water and even then there'll be someone who likes the sparkling version better.
My hate on current Siege is less of Pro vs Casual, but more Bad Decisions by Ubisoft-Chosen Dev (Current Dev) after Bad decisions. Be it Nerf and Nerf instead of Buffing the counterpart, or making bland design or Woke and bad Design, Change no one ask and even asked not to be made, Story? All gone down the sewer so We can replace with shitty Fanfic, MONEY, Laziness, Downgrade, and much much more. It’s not Pro Vs Casual, it’s shitty dev decisions
Honestly the amount of vigil/cav players that never reinforce or make rotates as well as teammates who never get on cams when they are dead is ridiculous
16:38 from here I can only agree To be honest, I think Ubisoft doesn’t really care or understand either side of the community. As Pengu stated, UBI doesn’t ask pros what changes should be made or if a change is good or bad. This was best shown with the introduction of Lion and Ela, where ubi completely ignored all red flags and warnings form the pro players and released the most overpowered Charakter I have ever seen, making the game unplayable for MONTHS to come. On the other side we have a complete disregard to casuals, especially on console. Recoil changes made some guns absolutely unplayable for non pros and just ruined the experience for many casual players. Then we have this extremely weird approach of nerfing everything that performs slightly better that something else. Just look at Jäger. They seem to not understand that he is a core element of siege and is a community favorite by pros and casuals and is therefore played very often. And nerfing him over and over and over will not change that. I don’t know why they are doing that. Maybe the devs just follow orders to get the most money spend by the community or it’s just plain Ignorance and disregard to the community or both.
On the note of a people not wanting to play a team based game, the reinforcement wall being a pool was the change that made me stop playing. Because no one had a personal obligation to do it no one did it. Eventually I just got tired of having to do 8 or 9 reinforcements by myself and then somehow trying get my utility down before before attackers showed up. If there was one change I could revert to the game it would be that one.
Even pro league isn’t the same anymore, it used to be insane hype and unreal gameplay, now it’s just utility simulator with the odd crazy play every blue moon.
Regarding the Last point you made my favourite is when players immediately run into the building or spawn peak blindly and die every round and then say your sweaty because you don't want to spend 30 minutes on the sideline with them.
Look I'm a Mute main and I just love pump action shotguns.I sometimes switch to the mp5 too for the funzies. What you play in a game and what people think about you doesn't matter.You are who you are.Deal with it people.
I dont comment much but this is an amazing video well paced and concise hard agree on almost every topic good job keep up the great work -Kapkan Kyle(just plays quick match both solo and with friends and i do go Kaid if there isnt wall denial on a site where there should be wall denial)
As a big Gregor fan and an even bigger FGC guy I got weirdly giddy about your little smash bros anecdote lol, I don't even play smash but it was cool to hear your take on something fighting game adjacent. Great video overall.
You're pretty much bang on there tbh. I mean i would call myself a 'casual' player. I don't play in a 5 stack and play ranked maybe once a fortnight because i enjoy methodical competitive nature of seige. PL needs to have influence on this game as being competitive is part of what makes this game so enjoyable to play!
I play the only available mode, bomb, on the same 3 maps, all of which feel like mazes of corridors, with the same 3 ops, all of whom look like they were taken from JoJo's bizarre adventure, with weapons that require 3 meters of mousepad to control. The ban system has only really narrowed the map pool even further and deleted actually creative op designs like Mira and Valk from existence. Then ubi wakes up after 3 months and does balance changes based on "muh data". And I'm not trying to be a whiny customer, that's just hands down my honest opinion of how insane this game is now. I for one miss the plane and the house and 5 stacking recruits with shields. It's not that I'd want Siege to be only the plane and the house, but I liked having the option when I'm not feeling like being a serious team player. Yeah, pro scene can't be directly blamed for any of this. I can however blame ubi for changing gears on Siege so much over time. The tacticool gang that originally got this game a second chance after the catastrophic launch realized that ubi doesn't care about them anymore, and the new gen of comp players are pissed off as well because they can't play past gold without a cheater in the lobby every other match.
Personally as a Plat 3 console player who plays 95% casual, 5% ranked, I think you've hit the nail on the head here, i think that pro league isn't the issue, but rather the casual community itself, the truly casual community who enjoy the game for what it is have no issue alot of the time, but the very sweaty casual players complain so much. I think pro league does have a handle over what Ubisoft does, but really it helps casual alot, because it allows alot of busted things that happen because they are busted, to be fixed, such as Finka on console right now, still a powerhouse like on pc. I think some things should not have been allowed like the house rework, it's the only map I truly dislike other than yacht and Tower, but other than that, pros make casual better and a more fun experience tbh
Totally. As a 100% casual, 0% ranked (because casual matches are 10-15 minutes and ranked are a painful and usually lopsided 20+ minutes of a lot of BS and sitting around), I'm fine with all the changes that come down from pro league. My only gripe is getting mown down by all the MnK cheaters on console. I'm fine with losing when someone's better and faster on a level playing field. But it sure seems like zero effort is being spent on curbing that simple cheating. OR, maybe just say they'll never address it and I can shut up about it. It's basically a sort of pay-to-win that ruins the game. The rest of the changes I can deal with.
My only qualm is that the game has been so micro managed down to the smallest detail, that it doesn't have much of a fun element anymore. I don't necessarily blame esports for everything, but after the lead dev team left, I believe the game wasn't as fun and on the decline. The newer players have made it, like you said, less of an objective based game and more of a gunfight simulator. Wacky and fun strats, plays or games are just not seen much anymore. It's always cookie cutter bans and strats and plays. Old siege just had the unpredictability and fun that made it enjoyable.
I think people hate pro-league in a way because they used to play casually and really enjoyed siege being this unbalanced mess during year 1-3. Of course devs wanted to clean the game up and make it as balanced and fair for everyone as possible and thats where this anger spurred from. People could no longer abuse unfair game aspects to their advantage and that made the game "unfun and too competitive".
@@rossman3388 Good point. Its impossible to make it completely balanced. Some ops gadgets or weapons will always be stronger or more useful than others, so Ubisoft will most likely just keep nerfing till very few people play the nerfed ops and move on to stronger ones, then the said ops will get nerfed as well because of the shitty pick rate table Ubisoft employees base their decisions on and the cycle will continue.
The absolute worst aspect of this is the people who find no issues with intentional team killing. Like yes, I’m aware it’s unranked and there’s no elo attached to this match. But how exactly does that make TKs okay?
A bit of feedback: I think that the 'Kapkan Kyle' and 'Ranked Ryan' monikers are useful to symbolize the community blocs of R6 partly because what they signify is pretty intuitive from their name. I don't think 'Sheesh Shane' is a very intuitive name to learn the meaning of, even if it's useful when you learn it. That name makes me feel like I need to watch other videos for the "lore" origin for this name where I dont feel that way with others.
I get your point about the aim bro’s. As someone who plays both pc and console the aim bro’s I don’t see as a problem on pc. However they are a huge problem on console as they are feeding into the cheating problem. All the aim bro’s on console wanna be like shiiko or other pro league players, they wanna quick peek, hit insane flicks for montages and generally flex their superiority. This has unfortunately led to the rise of the xims (mnk). I play a mid-high plat on console and every person named after a pro league player is on mnk without fail
Imagine only being able to pick an operator once per game. Finders keepers and the other teams picks would affect your gameplay choices after the switch. This would push people off their comfort picks and force everyone to strategize on the fly in a uniquely siege way, but Ubi fails to see the fun Siege could foster in party modes. The admiration for Halo 3's practically perfect balance between fun and for profit play styles can be traced to 5 words. "Halo is a party game". In The Act Man's latest video about the disappointment of Halo Infinite, I believe he strikes a chord on why most competitive adjacent games fail (not just Infinite) to capture as many players as possible. They don't add truly casual party game modes. Siege doesn't need forge or coop campaign to let players have the fun that they want, but not implementing dumb, differently strategic, or unrealistic modes to the game as party modes has really made the game suffer. There's countless modes, restrictions, and unrestrictive changes they could make to facilitate party modes, yet we keep getting uninventive different-flavor casual or team death match. 10v10, defenders being able to repel, 1 bomb site, hide and seek, or picking the enemy teams operators are just 5 easy to implement modes that could foster a less competitive side that I think would help Siege to be more main stream while still retaining the team, strategy, and competitive slant Ubi wants for it. Hopefully they see the power fun can have in a unique game like this.
There's this guy from back in the day that apparently told everyone they should wash their hands before performing surgeries or baby deliveries to avoid mortalities. People probably called that person a nerd.
i believe pro-league shouldn't effect casual games, if balance aimed at pro players needs to be added keep it within the competitive game modes, My opinion can be summed up with; i wouldn't ask a high ranking race car driver how to make a car.
As a Smash/Rainbow fan, the thing I would say is more aligned with Siege's destruction would be Edge Guarding in platform fighters like Smash Part of being a pro in smash is how well you can edge guard your opponent and, more importantly, how well the edge guarded can recover Similarly, Siege pros rely on site set-up for the defenders to play in and the attackers to pick apart and attack And in the case of both; casuals of both games hate it
I have a friend who constantly complains about siege being "ruined by balancing for pro league" and it's incredibly frustrating. He isn't bad are the game but he plays almost exclusively causal on PlayStation. I'm a pretty average PC player, I hit gold every season, but even still it's painfully obvious to me that we aren't really playing the same game anymore. Like yeah man, maybe that recent balancing change fixes something that wasn't an issue on console casual but it was a big fucking issue at slightly higher levels of play.
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Thank you for being a voice of reason in the siege community. It’s honestly refreshing to listen to someone who has the ability to see the bigger picture.
Part of why I enjoy pro league is hearing the crowd lose their shit whenever something crazy happens like a frag kill from a floor below
Something that happens every ranked game but when it happens in PL it's like God descends onto the stage
The Berlin major final was so fucking funny with all the rouge d riders cheering when one of them did damage
@@gagekellstrom3978 there's stakes in pro league so it's that much better
@@gagekellstrom3978 Like how middle schoolers can score a touchdown, yet people cheer like monkeys when professionals do it
That is also why I hate PL
I rarely nail the frag kill from below thing
"Sometimes the customer is an idiot". Greg I work at a grocery store and i cant tell you how many times a customer asks me where ice cream is when we only have 4 freezers next to each other
I am the customer and I would disagree. MOST times the customer is an idiot.
My store only has 1 freezer and customers still ask me where ice cream is. I feel your pain
I've thought about that last point about "team players" a lot. I also am a boomer-zoomer, so I can relate to the weird feeling of not relating to the mindset of people within your own demographic. I feel like kids need to be doing team sports or some sort of team activity in general even band, these kids who sit online and don't do anything like that just come out as weirdly anti-social and incapable of having normal human relations because they grew up chronically online and never having to actually like, look someone in the face and figure out a way to deal with them or the situation.
It's weird how I used to think that online games could substitute team sports in a sense, but with no guidance from a professional like a coach, it's just 5 kids with all the freedom in the world thinking they're all top shit. No one gets put in their place and egos run wild.
Glad I'm growing up smarter every day.
In the end… Its just a video game…
Imagine letting a simulated world dictate on what you do with your life. 😐
@@AndrewVaillant They can, its just most developers are shit at making team games actually require/force team work.
In football (the kind rest of the world plays), your goalie stays in the goal post not because he cant attempt to dribble a ball all the way across the field. Its just that he has 11 other guys and 90 minutes preventing that from happening.
While in R6 you can ace the entire enemy team and win within 3 minutes since you need to only click 5 times. So much for incentivising team play.
@@AndrewVaillant I think you mean wiser. Knowledge means nothing without wisdom.
@@gamingrex2930 Have you played or watched people play football that aren't in a league of some kind? I can assure you the level of team play is similar to your average casual/ranked game with randoms and that this is the same for many games e-sports or IRL sports that are not played at a professional/semi-professional level and require some amount of teamwork.
I love this social commentary that you are producing on the Siege community. It's one that I don't really feel that can be compared to any other fps community today. Keep it up, man.
Happy someone finally came out and straight up said if you dont want to play Siege as a team game then just go away. It annoys me how many people play this game like it's a team deathmatch and then complain in all chat when the opponents carry out an execute and call them 'sweats' when all they're doing is just playing the game as intended
Honestly this whole “pros VS casual” mentality is not only a siege thing. It’s a modern gaming thing where people just continue to not get along, and blame each other for trivial things.
Yeah apex has the same dichotomy
Csgo doesn't has that problem btw.
That chaos control joke was on point! 20/10 pure comedy
When was that? It must’ve gone over my head completely 😅
@@ItsVoltali go to 1:08 and enjoy
As a game designer doing live ops, I can say one thing the so called "community" voice over a "concern" in game doesn't align much with the data. And most of the time, follow the data is always return a better results than follow that "community".
The problem of following pure stat alone is . that it doesn't always reflect how the game is actually play. 2 example, in Dead by Daylight. There is a killer called the Nurse and the survivor perk called Object of obsession.
The Nurse have the ability to blink from place to another, allow her to goes through wall and ignoring most mechanic that would help the survivor escape from the killer such as window vault and pallet drop. Her power completely ignoring any counterplay and make most matches against her completely one-sided.
But that the thing. Most matches. She is a pretty hard to learn killer and that the only thing that keeping her win stat is always low becuz new people always try to learn her. The dev look at that and think that she balanced while nerf other killer that have high win stat.
The other being the Object of obsession. A survivor perk that allow one survivor to always know where the killer is with the down side of having your location be reveal as well. Sound pretty fair until you playing within a group. In with case, your whole team basically know every move the killer is going to make. Where they are, they trap there put down. So if you playing against a good team with OoO. You spend a entire match without chasing a single survivor. And good luck chasing the dude with OoO if they half way a cross the map, wasting more time. But still often the one that die and possibly the only one in that match. So the dev look at that, seeing the win rate is low so they said is balanced.
I was gonna talk about the idea of Pros Vs Casuals overall in gaming, but I think I might cite your video in a portion where I talk about Siege in that topic. If that's alright with you I mean. I just think your video summarizes the topic of siege better than I could.
np
The community also needs to realize(Myself included) we are not proleague. Most of us cant quick peak like they can and cant setup/hold sites the same way they can. Ya the set up might be strong but the attackers also wont attack like proleague does. They just Shift+w and hold The fire button. I love banning ash and fast operators in ranked so it slows the game down.
Imo the sheer inability to play Siege casually is a core issue. I think a lot of people are becoming really burnt out on meta-heavy team based shooters you can't just pick up and play without suffering cause you don't know some bullshit like proper gadget placement on this one spot on this one map if the other team is doing thing A, B or C. There is absolutely no happy medium between shit like Siege and complete carefree games like Stardew Valley. I believe this is why Siege is kinda plateauing while other shooters like TF2 or something are thriving.
I always feel like you're on the exact same wavelength as I am Greg. Even when I don't agree with your take, it always comes off as level-headed and reasonable. Its heartening to have a calm voice in the community who says the things that need to be said, imo.
and you make some great content to boot, keep it up dude.
17:50 Dude I work in retail hearing you say that shit was fucking cathartic. Thanks for the free therapy man-with-good-takes.
This. This right here. I used to love Siege, was my favorite game for about 3 years. Played it non-stop, had a 3 stack, and we played damn near every night. Then Siege got busted (even more so than normal) and stopped being fun. Nobody wanted to work together, no one ever set up site, and if you soloed you almost always got tk'd because someone was waiting for a buddy or they felt like being an a hole. I've tried to come back so many times, and even keep up with everything that comes out, but the community around Siege killed my love for Siege.
The customer is always right… IN MATTERS OF TASTE! That second part is the most important part.
Having played competitively before (like, really early though, S1 & 2. Against Laxing and those teams before they moved to PC!), I can honestly say the most fun I've had with this game has been in casual matches. Sometimes you use brain, other times you just vibe and don't need to think much. I enjoyed competing when I did it, but not near this much. Constantly trying at every chance got boring, whereas wanting to win but not caring went a long way to my enjoyment.
Siege definitely has a "class war" as you put it, I think its overall fine, and even changes that target competitive (but affect the whole game) don't really negatively impact the casual scene much. At the end of the day, a bulk of players will watch or learn new skills and tactics, either through esports or tips videos, to get better at the game. In some way, though minute probably for the most part, this does tighten the gap between casual and competitive.
But that does come with an increasing amount of players that take casual seriously at that point too. I hate being high ELO casual because I *don't* want to have to think all the time. If I did, I'd play ranked. They could try making casual less skill-based but that could mean the diamond players get put against bronze, which would create a facade of hyper inflated "class war" shenanigans. That being said, there's so many cool things I get killed by, whether its smart nades or good team plays, and I *love* to see it. It's mainly when I run into a very sweaty stack of players constantly treating casual as a diamond match that it upsets me from time to time. In the end, it's part of the game so I cope.
At the end of the day I'm sure Ubi has trouble trying to deal with the dichotomy of the playerbase, but at least they do try and actively work on things. It was weird for them not to do a mid-season patch this season, but despite the whinging of some, they do try and fix things and at least make attempts to better the game.
1000% this, literally put all my current gripes with siege into words
Adding to the casual elo rating I think this is inherently bad. By adding a rating system you’re adding that competitive layer to what should be “casual” like you said kinda turn your brain off and have fun. If ranked and casual both have a rating system and you play both of them they quickly turn into the same thing, which hurts the casual community. It’s one of many reasons I left cod. Ultra competitive matchmaking in a arcade shooter regular playlists even though they have separate ranked playlists as well.
i 100% agree. No matter what your skill is you seem to always need to try your best to have fun, because you are always put against players near your skill level. so you can't choose to just chill and play some days without it being competitive anyway. but as you said if they changed the SBMM to be more lenient you would see a lot more of extremely low and extremely high ELO put against each other making it not as fun for anyone. now thinking about it I would suggest Ubi to add a preference to quick match to be put in lobbies with a challenge or with more casual feel. the higher skill players that select casual would be matched with lower skill ones that select the challenging option. obviously this is just an idea and would need to be refined if it were actually implemented. Either way i have fun most of the time and I am eager to see what Ubi does in the future about this.
@@KealGG Well here's the thing though, you don't have to think at any ELO. If you're playing to turn your brain off it really shouldn't matter because you're not playing to win either way in high ELO or low ELO. If you get yourself up there and then decide to turn your brain off, then do, nothing is stopping you from playing in a way you want to enjoy it.
Another thing is, having matchmaking like that is pretty important for new player experiences. Quite literally it's the reason why smurfing is a problem, people at these lower skills/new don't like being put against people who are better than them but without trying to account for skill in matchmaking you basically have a situation where everyone is a smurf. Best way I like to describe this is, jump into an old fighting game with no experience/not being good. You will almost certainly get clapped on cooldown by people who are better than you and for a lot of people, winning is part of the fun.
Their efforts fall short every single time imo. I'd like to hear your opinion on the new increased recoil, which is now more random or the addition of the new emp grenades to around 6 attackers. I'm feeling strongly about both subjects, so pick your arguments carefully, as I'm coming back with a busket full of reasons both of them are underwhelming the least, if not straight up wrong.
This is easily your best video. Your talking points make sense, are grounded, with a amazing sense of how these topics stretch outside of siege in both other games and in real life. Stellar content as always bro.
My enjoyment of the game correlates directly with if I'm playing with friends or not. I had more fun losing as a team, than playing by myself and having the Ash/Jäger main in my team sweep.
Most of my casual games now are just basically TDM. People hardly reinforce and play the objective in casual anymore. When there's randoms giving callouts or even strategizing, I'm reminded of what the game should be. It should be playing as a team.
I think both sides want the same thing, to play the game as it was intended. Teamwork and strategy. Site setups or meme setups.
Developing a game thats emphasized on being marketed for e sports hurts games more not cus of balancing shit but cus its life is depended on having e sports interest which is a detriment to game development as a whole
I know I just get kinda reminded of what happened to Overwatch when I see competitive emphasized. Sad shit.
I loved the final point made in this video. I'm no Siege sweatlord by any means but it really does annoy me when I go into a match and my teammates choose to not set up site at all and instead all run off to go find their spawnpeek / roaming spot because they don't actually want to play Siege, they just want to play point and click simulator with the opponent to see who can move their mouse to the other guy's head quicker. Then it makes the game 10x harder for the teammates that are actually trying to play objective because the spawnpeeker or roamer inevitably died and the site hasn't been set up correctly to hold off the attackers who are now maybe a player or two up on the defenders. I'll also often have opposing attackers get annoyed with me playing objective on defense because apparently moving between 2 or 3 rooms around the objective is "camping" and if I want to camp I must go play COD? What? The Siege community is so sad because this game could be great without players like that playing the game and ruining matches for everyone in it.
It's not only on defense that I seem to have problems with people not wanting to actually play Siege because random teammates on attack almost never want to carry defuser, or co-ordinate a hard breach. They just want to Shift+W into the building and shoot anything that moves and then after dying 30 seconds into the round, get upset with you for trying to think about how you approach site. I somewhat understand their impatience because I also don't like attackers sitting on the roof until the last 20 seconds of a round, but trying to approach the attack in a smart manner should not cause your teammates to get pissed off with you because you're not immediately inside entry-fragging everyone and pretending that if you die, you'll respawn like it's a TDM so you have no reason to use any caution.
Droning in quick match also pisses people off for some ridiculous reason? Like bro, it's a mechanic of the game and if I would like to have some intel instead of blindly swinging into this room and giving you a free kill because I didn't know someone was in there, it's a problem?
The difficulty of finding a middle ground in Siege with the people in the lobbies sucks because you're either getting screamed at because you aren't playing the game like you're in pro-league, or you're getting screamed at for sweating in casual mode. I just want to be able to play the game, using the mechanics of the game, and have my teammates do the same to help me out, without all this stupid drama over how much of a try-hard I should be
Imagine just playing the game, crazy idea right???
Fucking impossible
in general it is bad for developers to mainly listen to pro players but Siege is one of the communities that has the most pro/sweaty player base compared to any other games and the devs doing nothing for most of the Year also helps because if they wanted to change something for the worse it will almost always take like 3 seasons anyway. the same is also true for a change that is good though sadly.
I would’ve like to keep some of the meme maps classic. I miss when house felt like breaching an actual house, not a comp based map
Ayy City pop !!
Siege has a thing that other games do not have, where you can perform team play with no typing nor voice comm required. Like you can ping or wiggle your character to clear utilities before hard breach, Pulse and Valkarie pings for roamers and C4s, leaving walls alone for Mira setup, leaving the barricade on for Fuze, the list goes on. I know sometimes players would just ignore or not understand your intentions, but it is fun when players do get the idea.
The developer has done a great job over the seven years to keep operators like this. Most operators could not work alone. Even they do, they are most likely to be weak on certain aspects. I was really surprise that even until now (I don't play much these years due to academic reasons), newer players could still get my idea with my pings and my character wiggles. That's something truly amazing, honestly.
Such a good video, well done again Greg
10:56 YES ANOTHER ROBIN MAIN
Team Fortress 2 also has a similar divide except it's more of casual players hating on competitive players than the other way around. It even has the "company made bad decision which is blamed on competitive side" deal.
Really glad you made a video about this topic.
Fucking thank you. Finally someone said it
The types of players in Siege that treat anything that isn’t meme strats like the fucking plague annoy the shit out of me. Especially when they screech down the mic at their team mates or rant in all chat about how you’re ‘sweating’ because you didn’t knife fight every round or play like Marley.
Like, no. Not everyone wants to do your brain dead meme strats you saw someone on TikTok get an ace with. Some people want to play Siege to play Siege’s main gameplay loop, and calling people sweats for playing the game normally is just fucking pathetic.
It’s like when people say knife fight mid in Valorant and complain when you shoot them. Like, no. I’m playing Valorant because I enjoy playing Valorant normally. Getting kills, using utility, managing econ.
Wish there was an FPS game that encouraged meme strats so people like this could just flock to that and stop ruining tac FPS games.
The sheer level of gatekeeping you nerds are doing is pathetic.
Loved the whole video, but everything from 16:22 onwards is just gold!
"Someone that just wants to play for fun but understand the game at his core"
Me, totally me, I don't want to be pro hell I don't watch eSports because it bores me to death but god damn I like to be good at the game and play it like is intended
I make rotations
I do call outs
I use drones
Etc
And I get called a tryhard or sweat lord when I'm just, playing
Bro is in the fucking game as a core mechanic like what the fuck are you talking about
Gregor, tbh, I wish I could play Siege with you, because I am very much in agreement with you on basically everything you said in this video. Keep it coming, man. Really appreciate these kinds of dives.
You echoed one of my sentiments exactly at 16:23. I play in Asia server and people here just don't want to take the effort to do basic things like reinforcing, droning, using cams, opening sightlines, using gadgets that don't go boom etc. Siege is such a complex, rich game. If you want to just switch off your brain, walk around blindly and press mouse 1, don't come into this game, not pull your weight and give the rest of us a bad time then call the rest of us "try hard". CS:GO is free, go play that.
Gatekeeping is annoying and puts off new players, cut it out. If they enjoy it, you are essentially the guy screaming at people to stop enjoying things.
@@garretth8224
There's a difference between a player genuinely trying to learn the game and people that just flat out don't want to play it as it is designed to. I'm not telling people to stop enjoying what they enjoy. I'm just saying go play a game, or at least a game mode, that suits your "style". If you like run-and-gun, not being a team player, fine. Play something that supports that type of style. Go for CS:GO, CoD, Battlefield, even Siege's TDM mode where death and tactics don't matter as much and you can just mouse 1 all day. Don't come into a game where 4 others are relying on you as part of a team, force your style on it, fail, then complain the rest of us are tryhards.
4:33 the idea that Smash with items and legal stages is just Streetfighter makes my skin crawl
I don't think the two types of people are those who are pro or sweats, and those who don't want to play with their team (not explicitly stated, but implied maybe). I personally play in a 4 stack, however haven't enjoyed a lot of the balancing because it feels like they violated a lot of the fun for the sake of chart analytics. The win delta is not indicative of anything that kept siege alive and strong for so long. The balancing wasn't always good, but the game kept me and a group of friends constantly coming back every night to que into gold and plat lobbies. Things like removing Zofs withstand i think are whatever, but destroying a character like Jaeger, or the constant changes to op sights and recoil, i believe have big implications for the majority of the player base. Some of us like to play as a team, but play to have fun first. I believe siege is significantly less fun than it was before win deltas were used to change everything.
They literally used win deltas since the very beginning what did you smoke? Can I have some? I also would like to forget the last 8 years.
Personally, I believe that youtubers are the ones who hold all of the influence over Ubisoft.
I have to agree. I started thinking this back during Hot Breach and the early days of Logic Bomb. They would suggest very specific operator or mechanical changes on the show and in the next operation or two that it would happen. That’s about when I stopped listening, first time I wrote it off as a coincidence, 2nd time I just stopped listening altogether.
As a certified Sheesh Shane, I endorse this video
For every time the customer is an idiot to a server, there's a restaurant manager insisting his microwaved lasagna is fresh and top quality lmao
I think you said it before, the game should’ve been sweaty and embraced the sweat instead of doing the whole “we can cater to everyone” situation. I truly think the game will have a hard resurgence ironically when the community falls off a bit
Gregor is Extroverted?
I thought Siege Players can't stand sunlight ._.
You deserve so many more viewers than you get. You’re one of the few creators who I see actually interacting with people (you’ve responded to me on twitter a few times) and seem like a down to earth guy. The current state of siege is frustrating to me because it’s been my favorite shooter since I started in 2017. There truly is no competitor to it currently and I wish the devs were more inclined to make more positive changes so I can keep playing the game I love for years to come
"Super is retiring"
God Greg you don't have to wound my heart a second time like that
Well hero shooter and bomb defusal being the only two elements that were copy pasted imo
Well now I’m watching underwater basket weaving
I definitely see where you're coming from here with your point, but when get jiggle peaked by guy sweating an ass stain into his chair in casual it's kinda annoying. I'm not playing at the level of attention to counter that shit in that moment. I'm playing CASUALLY.
9:33 new character: Sheesh Shane !
You explained it so well to understand the "Casual v. Pro" situation. kudos , great job.
13:45 Based and Shyness Boy pilled
I might have dipped from Siege ages ago, but Gregor remains that part of the grapevine that never fails to entertain and keep my finger on the pulse of the community, great video.
Always love your commentaries, they're so well thought out and put together; a rare sight in a time, where opinion and loud screaming is more valued than a well-articulated discussion.
I especially agree to your last statement that the customer is indeed not always right and king and should be pampered, exactly then, when he is clearly not the target group, not the kind of person you would want as a customer; just like the statement 'every kind of attention is good attention' is questionable at best, 'any kind of customer is good customers' is too... Not only in Siege but so many other games and even movies; if you try to appeal to _every single person on the planet_ , you'll appeal to noone, you might aswell just sell tap water and even then there'll be someone who likes the sparkling version better.
My hate on current Siege is less of Pro vs Casual, but more Bad Decisions by Ubisoft-Chosen Dev (Current Dev) after Bad decisions.
Be it Nerf and Nerf instead of Buffing the counterpart, or making bland design or Woke and bad Design, Change no one ask and even asked not to be made, Story? All gone down the sewer so We can replace with shitty Fanfic, MONEY, Laziness, Downgrade, and much much more. It’s not Pro Vs Casual, it’s shitty dev decisions
Honestly the amount of vigil/cav players that never reinforce or make rotates as well as teammates who never get on cams when they are dead is ridiculous
It's either that or they make the most ridiculous rotates or when they are on cams, make stupid calls.
16:38 from here I can only agree
To be honest, I think Ubisoft doesn’t really care or understand either side of the community. As Pengu stated, UBI doesn’t ask pros what changes should be made or if a change is good or bad. This was best shown with the introduction of Lion and Ela, where ubi completely ignored all red flags and warnings form the pro players and released the most overpowered Charakter I have ever seen, making the game unplayable for MONTHS to come.
On the other side we have a complete disregard to casuals, especially on console. Recoil changes made some guns absolutely unplayable for non pros and just ruined the experience for many casual players.
Then we have this extremely weird approach of nerfing everything that performs slightly better that something else. Just look at Jäger. They seem to not understand that he is a core element of siege and is a community favorite by pros and casuals and is therefore played very often. And nerfing him over and over and over will not change that.
I don’t know why they are doing that. Maybe the devs just follow orders to get the most money spend by the community or it’s just plain Ignorance and disregard to the community or both.
13:11 ah yes the ford pinto, where are my "car on fire" jokes at?
On the note of a people not wanting to play a team based game, the reinforcement wall being a pool was the change that made me stop playing. Because no one had a personal obligation to do it no one did it. Eventually I just got tired of having to do 8 or 9 reinforcements by myself and then somehow trying get my utility down before before attackers showed up.
If there was one change I could revert to the game it would be that one.
Gregor is an F1 fan. Respect
*Hot fuzz reference is heard*
“The goyo change for the greater good”
Me: the greater good
🤣
Even pro league isn’t the same anymore, it used to be insane hype and unreal gameplay, now it’s just utility simulator with the odd crazy play every blue moon.
Regarding the Last point you made my favourite is when players immediately run into the building or spawn peak blindly and die every round and then say your sweaty because you don't want to spend 30 minutes on the sideline with them.
Look I'm a Mute main and I just love pump action shotguns.I sometimes switch to the mp5 too for the funzies.
What you play in a game and what people think about you doesn't matter.You are who you are.Deal with it people.
What I'm getting from this video, is that if siege dies, Gregor's gonna become a smash tuber
I would love to see a video one day on the mishandling of halo
17:50 YES SO TRUE. sometimes people just forget that
I dont comment much but this is an amazing video well paced and concise hard agree on almost every topic good job keep up the great work
-Kapkan Kyle(just plays quick match both solo and with friends and i do go Kaid if there isnt wall denial on a site where there should be wall denial)
me and my boi was playing high last saturday, we both agree that was the best siege we've ever played
Remember, the full quote is "the customer is always right *in matters of taste*"
As a big Gregor fan and an even bigger FGC guy I got weirdly giddy about your little smash bros anecdote lol, I don't even play smash but it was cool to hear your take on something fighting game adjacent. Great video overall.
You're pretty much bang on there tbh. I mean i would call myself a 'casual' player. I don't play in a 5 stack and play ranked maybe once a fortnight because i enjoy methodical competitive nature of seige. PL needs to have influence on this game as being competitive is part of what makes this game so enjoyable to play!
Dig the Cake and Black Keys in the UA-cam music history, some of the biggest influences on my music taste to this day. Keep up the great work!
Perfect kill shot conclusion
That Smash Bros story is incredibly relatable
How accurate and hilarious that smash comparison is almost scary
7:07 cant wait to hear you say those unprofessional things
Great video as always, The smash story was especially fun to listen to as well!
I play the only available mode, bomb, on the same 3 maps, all of which feel like mazes of corridors, with the same 3 ops, all of whom look like they were taken from JoJo's bizarre adventure, with weapons that require 3 meters of mousepad to control. The ban system has only really narrowed the map pool even further and deleted actually creative op designs like Mira and Valk from existence. Then ubi wakes up after 3 months and does balance changes based on "muh data". And I'm not trying to be a whiny customer, that's just hands down my honest opinion of how insane this game is now. I for one miss the plane and the house and 5 stacking recruits with shields. It's not that I'd want Siege to be only the plane and the house, but I liked having the option when I'm not feeling like being a serious team player.
Yeah, pro scene can't be directly blamed for any of this. I can however blame ubi for changing gears on Siege so much over time. The tacticool gang that originally got this game a second chance after the catastrophic launch realized that ubi doesn't care about them anymore, and the new gen of comp players are pissed off as well because they can't play past gold without a cheater in the lobby every other match.
Maybe don’t play ranked if you want to play plane.
Personally as a Plat 3 console player who plays 95% casual, 5% ranked, I think you've hit the nail on the head here, i think that pro league isn't the issue, but rather the casual community itself, the truly casual community who enjoy the game for what it is have no issue alot of the time, but the very sweaty casual players complain so much.
I think pro league does have a handle over what Ubisoft does, but really it helps casual alot, because it allows alot of busted things that happen because they are busted, to be fixed, such as Finka on console right now, still a powerhouse like on pc. I think some things should not have been allowed like the house rework, it's the only map I truly dislike other than yacht and Tower, but other than that, pros make casual better and a more fun experience tbh
Totally. As a 100% casual, 0% ranked (because casual matches are 10-15 minutes and ranked are a painful and usually lopsided 20+ minutes of a lot of BS and sitting around), I'm fine with all the changes that come down from pro league. My only gripe is getting mown down by all the MnK cheaters on console. I'm fine with losing when someone's better and faster on a level playing field. But it sure seems like zero effort is being spent on curbing that simple cheating. OR, maybe just say they'll never address it and I can shut up about it. It's basically a sort of pay-to-win that ruins the game. The rest of the changes I can deal with.
My only qualm is that the game has been so micro managed down to the smallest detail, that it doesn't have much of a fun element anymore. I don't necessarily blame esports for everything, but after the lead dev team left, I believe the game wasn't as fun and on the decline. The newer players have made it, like you said, less of an objective based game and more of a gunfight simulator. Wacky and fun strats, plays or games are just not seen much anymore. It's always cookie cutter bans and strats and plays. Old siege just had the unpredictability and fun that made it enjoyable.
I think people hate pro-league in a way because they used to play casually and really enjoyed siege being this unbalanced mess during year 1-3. Of course devs wanted to clean the game up and make it as balanced and fair for everyone as possible and thats where this anger spurred from. People could no longer abuse unfair game aspects to their advantage and that made the game "unfun and too competitive".
I mean how is the game balanced now?I think playing against ash and zof ARs was more fun than the LMG spam.
@@rossman3388 Good point. Its impossible to make it completely balanced. Some ops gadgets or weapons will always be stronger or more useful than others, so Ubisoft will most likely just keep nerfing till very few people play the nerfed ops and move on to stronger ones, then the said ops will get nerfed as well because of the shitty pick rate table Ubisoft employees base their decisions on and the cycle will continue.
The absolute worst aspect of this is the people who find no issues with intentional team killing. Like yes, I’m aware it’s unranked and there’s no elo attached to this match. But how exactly does that make TKs okay?
A bit of feedback: I think that the 'Kapkan Kyle' and 'Ranked Ryan' monikers are useful to symbolize the community blocs of R6 partly because what they signify is pretty intuitive from their name. I don't think 'Sheesh Shane' is a very intuitive name to learn the meaning of, even if it's useful when you learn it. That name makes me feel like I need to watch other videos for the "lore" origin for this name where I dont feel that way with others.
Appreciate the reference to hot fuzz. It’s a good movie
I get your point about the aim bro’s. As someone who plays both pc and console the aim bro’s I don’t see as a problem on pc. However they are a huge problem on console as they are feeding into the cheating problem. All the aim bro’s on console wanna be like shiiko or other pro league players, they wanna quick peek, hit insane flicks for montages and generally flex their superiority. This has unfortunately led to the rise of the xims (mnk). I play a mid-high plat on console and every person named after a pro league player is on mnk without fail
12:36 overwatch reference!!!! [Insert soyjak]
I definitely do think that dogging someone for being a sweat, especially in the kind of game that siege is, is pretty fuckin stupid.
Imagine only being able to pick an operator once per game. Finders keepers and the other teams picks would affect your gameplay choices after the switch. This would push people off their comfort picks and force everyone to strategize on the fly in a uniquely siege way, but Ubi fails to see the fun Siege could foster in party modes. The admiration for Halo 3's practically perfect balance between fun and for profit play styles can be traced to 5 words. "Halo is a party game". In The Act Man's latest video about the disappointment of Halo Infinite, I believe he strikes a chord on why most competitive adjacent games fail (not just Infinite) to capture as many players as possible. They don't add truly casual party game modes. Siege doesn't need forge or coop campaign to let players have the fun that they want, but not implementing dumb, differently strategic, or unrealistic modes to the game as party modes has really made the game suffer. There's countless modes, restrictions, and unrestrictive changes they could make to facilitate party modes, yet we keep getting uninventive different-flavor casual or team death match. 10v10, defenders being able to repel, 1 bomb site, hide and seek, or picking the enemy teams operators are just 5 easy to implement modes that could foster a less competitive side that I think would help Siege to be more main stream while still retaining the team, strategy, and competitive slant Ubi wants for it. Hopefully they see the power fun can have in a unique game like this.
There's this guy from back in the day that apparently told everyone they should wash their hands before performing surgeries or baby deliveries to avoid mortalities. People probably called that person a nerd.
Not comparable in the slightest but okay.
Turn signal bit made me burst out laughing
Damn this is deep I just had testing and my brain is sooo fried I can hardly compute what greg is saying lol
i believe pro-league shouldn't effect casual games, if balance aimed at pro players needs to be added keep it within the competitive game modes, My opinion can be summed up with; i wouldn't ask a high ranking race car driver how to make a car.
As a Smash/Rainbow fan, the thing I would say is more aligned with Siege's destruction would be Edge Guarding in platform fighters like Smash
Part of being a pro in smash is how well you can edge guard your opponent and, more importantly, how well the edge guarded can recover
Similarly, Siege pros rely on site set-up for the defenders to play in and the attackers to pick apart and attack
And in the case of both; casuals of both games hate it
Love these types of videos
This always seems to happen between these two sides in most multiplayer games
If a compeditive scene was healthy for the game. Pro players wouldnt smurf.
Great video and best thumbnail of 2022.
“I can’t believe Supr is retiring.”
I can
I have a friend who constantly complains about siege being "ruined by balancing for pro league" and it's incredibly frustrating. He isn't bad are the game but he plays almost exclusively causal on PlayStation. I'm a pretty average PC player, I hit gold every season, but even still it's painfully obvious to me that we aren't really playing the same game anymore. Like yeah man, maybe that recent balancing change fixes something that wasn't an issue on console casual but it was a big fucking issue at slightly higher levels of play.