@@jimk5145 she is usually calm and collected, but there is another controller at this airport who I know if I heard his voice, would have flamed this guy on tower frequency and to top it all off say "I have a number for you to call. Possible pilot deviation"
Two things : first your fading the chart in and out is very helpful to understanding what's going on. I've never seen that before. Good idea. Second, this is a good air traffic controller. Not flustered or scolding, just firm.
i disagree, the second time he cut in front of the other plane she didn’t even try to resolve the conflict but used the time to scold him. She should have given advice or instruction to the other plane on how to avoid
Now that's funny! She sounds very professional, may be a pilot, too, and did not declare a PD, but still that was too close for comfort--twice. I am still hurting for the pilots killed at Dallas Redbird. Vigilance is paramount and any pilot should avail themselves of all navaids in busy bee hives. DME is wonderful and so is the localizer if available.
By the looks of how this guy was flying, how did he even pass his private checkride flying like that. I dont think this guy is current, someone get this guy a flight review because I think he forgot he had to get checked out once every 2 years instead of 10 years. Hell, I know people who passed their private pilot in the 80s and haven't touched a plane since.
He needs to know it’s ok to say he doesn’t see the traffic when he doesn’t see the traffic. Looks like he turned LEFT downwind for the opposite runway at first. That’s a double whammy right there. We had a pilot get fired for doing that once in a jet. He didn’t cause an incident but it was a matter of time.
@@flyfishizationjones4940 yes, the one on downwind was 100 ft below him, so most likely he never saw him. Saw the other guy and confirmation bias kicked in. Didn't help that tower never told thim there was another Cessna on base/final.
I get the feeling that if she hadn't said "Cessna you're heading southbound now" he'd have landed somewhere in Cuba. Guy just had no idea where he was going.
I have a feeling 2DC saw 9004W on final, assumed that's who tower was referring to, and never knew he was supposed to be looking for 51390 (and probably never knew he nearly hit them).
And I think that he, although he said he did, did not fully grasp the notion of what “landfill” meant… That guy should not be flying an airplane without instruction. And, weirdly, that plane is BASED there. Not a visitor, based! How the **** does one mess this up this bad at one’s local?!
@@pjotrtje0NL Just the fact that the plane is based there, doesn't mean this pilot is very familiar with this airfield. I think he ended up following the wrong Cessna. There was another C172 at his 12 o'clock position on long final.
Yeah agreed. Got confused and turned left downwind for RWY14 instead of right downwind for 32. Relatively easy mistake to make if you're in training I guess, but what happened after that when told to sight and follow the Cessna was pretty bad
Perceived blocked from where the audio source receiver for this video was located. Anyone in the pattern would have likely only heard the tower due to the more powerful transmission.
I’m a flight instructor and was southeast, exiting Republic airspace, when this happened and heard it on frequency. 51390 is one of our schools planes. My student sent the recording to me and I immediately gave it to the pilot of 51390. Although obviously a close call, we laughed it off, cause in the end that’s what you do. It’s even funnier now that it’s posted for thousands online to see 😂.
@@camdensquire4960 this is partially true. lots of controllers do make 6 figures, and most have the potential to if they max out the pay band at their facility. but there are also quite a few towers that "only" ever make high 5 figures
Considering that the lay at kfrg for controllers is just barely above the cost of living in the area... Annnnnnd how busy it is at that airport... definitely not enough. Working traffic patterns and student pilots is waaaaaaaaaaay more work than working commercial traffic. Trust me. Republic is probably harder to certify at than jfk.
Got curious for more context. Picture of 2DC (from 2 years ago) has a flight school's site painted on it. The "landfill" is pretty distinct, looks like a quarry. 2DC goes straight for a different industrial-looking area (concrete, construction, junk), passing over it around video timestamp 5:30. Then they follow N9004W (also a Cessna). Not meant as excuses, just explanations.
I'm glad I'm learning in an environment like republic. It's so busy and shit like this happens all the time so you really learn to stay on your toes and pay attention. Republic is easily one of the busiest Class D's in the entire NAS, busier than most class C's tbh. One of my DPE's nicknamed it repulsive because of it.
@dkoleary88 Not sure on the numbers. The other guy commented that it is, so I'll take his word for it. I will say though it is pretty common to be extended on downwind for 8 or 9 miles, the worst I've gotten is a 15 mile extension.
One of the most important things I took away in my training is; if you don't know, just ask. I use to to be afraid this bothered controllers, but if I've noticed anything, they're just happy to hear you trying to be accurate rather than forgetting and going off assumptions.
Great example of what happens when a pilot gets behind the airplane and loses situational awareness. Armchair piloting this thing, it seems he didn't have a good mental image of where he was supposed to turn for the right downwind, setting up for a left downwind in the opposite direction instead. After that he was sufficiently shook up that later he mistook 04W for the traffic he was supposed to follow (and not 390) perhaps due to confirmation bias. I like the way the controller managed it.
ATC should have given him headings, instead of saying repeatedly go downwind" for instance. If ur lost, someone gives this instruction, ur still lost.... Giving him headings would have both helped the pilot and ATC i am sure....
Totally agree, she should have directed him out of the pattern, let him regain his composure for a couple of minutes, then vectored him back into the downwind. A degree of proficiency is obviously expected of pilots but anyone can make a mistake and hectoring someone who’s obviously confused isn’t going to help.
@@MrMegaMario64 To be fair, that plane was never the pick of the litter. Like most planes flight schools have, they get abused. For example, that plane always had a heading indicator that was never accurate.
I frequently practice out of Farmingdale and it gets very busy with normal traffic and plenty of practice flights. The airspace can either be completely empty or very congested. The ATC at the airport always does a great job at getting people around safely.
I'm assuming he mistakenly turned for left downwind instead of right the first time around; after that things just got worse, his nerves were already shot and flustered.
After the first mess I thought not so bad. Then he's asked to get on the downwind and instead is basically cutting across to final (regardless of not seeing traffic!) I think he might have got disoriented regarding the airport pattern? His downwind got way to close to final.
I was thinking the same - it sounded like he was flustered, maybe just a task-saturated new pilot? Still, hope he still has an instructor to debrief. Too close!
4:23 I think the ATC should have had him turn 270 first, then said follow. He might have been following the wrong Cessna, N9004W. Pilot was overwhelmed and probably did not look towards 3 o'clock for the correct follow. Of course, repeat back would have helped the pilot keep the directions in order.
2DC should have been vectored away from the pattern and ordered to orbit until things 'quietened down'....then reintroduced to the pattern for his approach and landing.
I'm a CFI out of FRG, and from my experience, it takes a lot for FRG Tower to give someone a possible pilot deviation. It's a training airport, this stuff happens a lot (and by the way I got my CFI in 152DC - good little bird)
You're not supposed to. "Blocked" adds to the noise, and does not specify whose communication was blocked. That's why we end transmissions with callsigns. If they don't answer, you call them again. Someone saying "Blocked" is unnecessary.
The fact that NOBODY said "blocked" the thwo times 2DC and Tower stepped on each other is a significant contributing factor. That's when 2DC decided to do a 360 since he couldn't communicate with the tower to get his next instructions. That puts you behind the airplane and diminishes your SA. He then got a visual on the wrong Cessna (two of them, one on downwind, one on base/final) and probably never realized he almost hit the other one. He was 100 feet above, in a low wing - the other traffic was most likely obscured. A little survival trick: fly a bit higher than pattern altitude in a high wing, and a bit lower in a low wing - it'll help you see traffuc around you. Tower should've warned him there are two Cessnas next to him, and given him a bit of vectoring as he strayed from his assigned spot. Overall, a good lesson in maintaining SA and investing in some sort of ADS-B IN capability.
I used to fly out of Republic starting in the late 1970s and it was also packed with traffic back then. There were the same type of mistakes, close-calls and so on. In those days there was also Zahns Airport South of Southern State. Traffic landing on 32 at Republic had to turn base North of Southern State, which meant a short final on every approach to that runway. Runway one was left traffic only. Runway 19 required turn over 14 and then staying North of Southern State.
That tower controller did not help that much. Frustrating how she did not try to properly resolve the second conflict. Too much chatter on the radio, keep it to short simple instructions and talk later. This is something the controllers at my home airport do very well. Lots of training aircraft, they focus on getting simple instructions out if pilots are struggling with situational awareness. I know hindsight is 20/20 but it’s important to see this as a learning opportunity.
I found the instructions here very confusing. When the ATC said "turn midfield right downwind right now", 152DC was already flying parallel to the runway he was going to land on (i.e., he was already on the downwind leg, wasn't he?). When he complied with her instruction, this put him on an intersecting course with the plane which she then asked him to follow. I've never heard an ATC tell an aircraft to follow another if he was not already behind and on nearly the same heading.
Why was he reporting his position multiple times like it was an untowered airport. Complete lack of awareness and a couple close calls, this man does not need to be flying solo without extensive training
To be fair, N9004W is also a Cessna. But yikes. I suppose the only thing that could have been better is to have N152DC do a left 270 to follow N51390. I'm guessing he got rattled by the initial foul-up. "Tower, request departure to the East. Will call when ready to reenter."
What it seems like to me is that the pilot was worried that he didn't get a response from atc joining the downwind, because he kept getting stepped on, and he didn't want to join downwind without approval, so he thought it was better to circle in the meantime. After the vectors, he assumed the controller left him on a downwind heading, and did not correct (it actually looked like he was on a downwind for the intersecting runway). Once he turned inbound, he saw his mistake and adjusted the lineup accordingly. I can sympathize with where the pilot went wrong. That said, the controller was right to force a full stop, with the way mistakes were sequencing, because those other pilots were in danger as long as he stayed in that airspace
No, that’s too logical. Controller chose the best option. Belittle him and make him even more flustered than he already was thereby making him even more dangerous.
I think there was doubling between the Tower and either the N152DC or another plane, but I have a feeling the doubling (or stepping on, keying at the same time) that's where this all fell apart like around 1:30 or so into this. Man edit: wow now 5 minutes and so into this, this guy is reckless in the air what the heck is he thinking cutting off that plane. Holy cow, it's a good thing she kept him on the ground, jeez he needs some further training and I'm going to expect a number to call for pilot deviation? Not sure if that's going to happen, but it should. Jeez oh man wowswers!
Absolutely, that's the edit, by 5 minutes into this i realized no this pilot has way more than a possibly missed transmission going on here. Great work by ATC and the other involved pilot (s)
My guess is either 1) he didn't have the traffic in sight but said he did, or 2) he had some other traffic that he thought was the one to follow, but given the lack of other radar contacts, I'm guessing it was the first.
@@chrisschack9716 but the instruction was to follow the Cessna currently ON downwind. It doesn’t make sense to follow a Cessna on final thinking that was what the ATC is referring to
The way he cutoff that 172 on the downwind and was heading for the other 172 on final makes me think he didn't actually see the 172 on the downwind. When he said "traffic in sight" he must have been looking at the 172 on final and thought he was following them, but she did say downwind. He said he was turning base when he was essentially already on base so I also thought for a minute that he was going to the wrong runway, like maybe runway 01. I think this was a case of him not listening to the whole message. I understand that we don't need to repeat the entire directions to keep the frequency clear but maybe he should have repeated, at least to himself, that the traffic is on the downwind. Reminds me off my second solo when another student aircraft, with CFI inside, cut me off by a few hundred feet but that was on final.
I thought the same thing, but even more timid... I was expecting the controller to tell her she needs to speak up, though that probably would've flustered her even more
From the radar it looks as though the aircraft he was meant to follow was more like the 4 o'clock position, which would make acquiring the correct traffic pretty difficult
Who knew Lois Griffin was a tower controller? She did fine. She is not saying "just a heading" she is saying "suggest a heading..." She can't give the pilot a heading like approach or departure, she is limiting her liability and staying within her limits by saying "suggest" a heading of xxx. There's videos out there explaining how and why the language is used. A little scolding is expected and appreciated by pilots. Although some controllers get so bent out of shape they start making mistakes. When the one pilot said over the radio that they had to maneuver and it was close, that changed the whole situation and the FAA could take action on this.
There is absolutely no way at 4:14 that 152DC "follows" 51390. Just no way. He was already out east, she should've sent him on a 360 then join downwind.
I can’t tell you how many near mid-airs I nearly got into back in my corporate jet days. Mainly pilots not paying attention to what they were doing. Sometimes pilots didn’t even have operable comm radios. Some would be out flying IFR (I follow Roads).
Both jobs are not for the slow minded. You need to process information fast and accurate to fly and work at tower. I give them all a tremendous amount of respect, except the guy who's just about to lose 2 points on his license. 😬
To be fair to the pilot the tower’s instructions when she was telling him to follow the traffic could have been better. Why not just say “join the 45 degree left downwind behind the traffic” or “join the left midfield downwind”
@@PatrickMcDougle She kinda said it but then immediately subverts that by saying "follow the traffic." Obviously this pilot was having some issues following instructions, but having figured that out, the controller should have given very objective instructions like "go to the landfill and then enter the left downwind" rather than more subjective ones like "follow the traffic"
Can’t confirm this, but I had a similar situation happen to me where my instructor tried to tell me to go into a downwind for 1 when we were cleared for 19, same exact plane too, idk if it’s the same instructor but haven’t flown with him since.
We're all human. This was pretty clearly a student pilot. While I'm not excusing their lack of understanding, I'm promoting the idea that there are a lot of pilots out there who have been flying for decades and have not yet familiarized themselves with how things work. Stay vigilant, keep your head on a swivel, regardless of your ratings. You're not immune to others actions/confusion. These thing just happen. It's simple reality. Always being prepared for encountering something like this is what will keep you safe.
That was crazy. I was just hoping that ATC gave him a number to call in. He clearly had no clue and his actions resulted in near misses in the pattern. In this case sorry, doesn’t hack it.
why do they always add "bound" to every heading instruction? Surely the instruction is to fly "north" or "south". You only add "bound" when you're describing what the intention of the aircraft is to another station.
@@VASAviationthen i would have thought that the instruction woud be to fly northwards. And then when describing that aircraft to other traffic, you'd then use the term notthbound. In other words, its only " bound" after its established on its heading, not before. A descriptive word rather than an instuctional word. Anyway as long as everyone understands what it means I guess it doesnt matter but it always sounds a slightly odd useage of the word to me !
Do you think he was capable of flying a plane and copying down a phone number at the same time? He can be told to call the tower once he's on the ground.
I noticed something: DC's pilot tried to communicate two times but he was stepped over, most likely by the tower. I am curious of what he was trying to say, not that it excuses the "we were about to do a 360"...
Overall tower handled this very well but given how confused the Cessna pilot was, she could have stopped using north/south once the initial danger was averted and just switched to clock, because he was probably thinking in about eight directions at once. I feel a little sorry for the guy but he was out of his depth and the tower did well to get him on the ground safely.
Stressful for sure but the last instruction "Do NOT turn to the East" was unnecessary and could be confusing. 2DC definitely was at fault for most of this confusion.
Wow so much going wrong with 2DC - Blocked twice and deciding on their own to do a 360, not understanding that "turning to follow the Cessna" means "Turn when they turn so you're spaced behind them" not "turn towards them immediately and ignore the fact that they're now closing with you"
Terrifying... looks like he mixed up the runways at the ende. He flew downwind from the other RWY. Wonder what aircraft he was following though. Absolutely no situational awareness...
That’s one long final approach. When Shan’s airport was on the other side of the parkway that pilot would not have survived. Arc did a good job. Is flight safety still based there?
Typical case of loss of situational awareness. I'm pretty sure 2DC thought he was following 04W (another 172) that was actually on final and not downwind and lost his awareness of where he was in the pattern. Could easily happen to anyone and what's important is the lesson was taken home along with a safe conclusion.
2DC while flying over the landfill, go ahead and throw your pilot’s license out the window and heck while you are at it, throw your driver’s license too.
KFRG is wild, they move as many aircraft as New Orleans daily, but its a mix of GA, private business jets, up to 737's, plus quite a few flight schools. Planes are flying in at all kinds of speeds and skill levels
When ATC asked if he was familiar with "the landfill", I thought she was going to suggest he try landing there :).
Where I live, that would have been the exact meaning of that comment from our ATC’s. 😅🙈
That would be faster than FRG. What. Shitshow that place is.
LMAO 😂
Glad ATC ordered a full stop instead of letting him do the requested TNGs. She didn't want this goofball back in the air.
Right, but I didn't hear "I have a number for you to call. Possible pilot deviation."
@@jimk5145I was expecting her to do that.
@@jimk5145 maybe she wanted him down first then gave him the number.
@@jimk5145 She's saving that for when he's on the ground and not effing up her pattern...
@@jimk5145 she is usually calm and collected, but there is another controller at this airport who I know if I heard his voice, would have flamed this guy on tower frequency and to top it all off say "I have a number for you to call. Possible pilot deviation"
Two things : first your fading the chart in and out is very helpful to understanding what's going on. I've never seen that before. Good idea.
Second, this is a good air traffic controller. Not flustered or scolding, just firm.
Gonna have to disagree with that, she was most definitely scolding when she said “leave room”
@@austincrawley7359 I thought that the "leave room" instruction was a suggestion to the Cherokee pilot to not get near the confused boy.
@@soaringvulture That's how I read it as well!
After zooming in, the trails where helpful, but I wish they had been visible sooner.
i disagree, the second time he cut in front of the other plane she didn’t even try to resolve the conflict but used the time to scold him. She should have given advice or instruction to the other plane on how to avoid
My heart was beating so fast when he “follow” that traffic.
Mph urgh ah yes mph oh gosh. mph oh yessss
"Let me know when you're on the ground, the engine is off, and your hands are off the yoke. I have a number for you to call..."
I'm assuming that's the call he received on ground frequency.
Now that's funny! She sounds very professional, may be a pilot, too, and did not declare a PD, but still that was too close for comfort--twice. I am still hurting for the pilots killed at Dallas Redbird. Vigilance is paramount and any pilot should avail themselves of all navaids in busy bee hives. DME is wonderful and so is the localizer if available.
I flashed back many years ago and my instructor hammering situational awareness into my head!! This poor guy needs more dual with a competent CFI.
By the looks of how this guy was flying, how did he even pass his private checkride flying like that. I dont think this guy is current, someone get this guy a flight review because I think he forgot he had to get checked out once every 2 years instead of 10 years. Hell, I know people who passed their private pilot in the 80s and haven't touched a plane since.
He needs to know it’s ok to say he doesn’t see the traffic when he doesn’t see the traffic. Looks like he turned LEFT downwind for the opposite runway at first. That’s a double whammy right there. We had a pilot get fired for doing that once in a jet. He didn’t cause an incident but it was a matter of time.
bloody hell. that probably got the blood going a bit for her. glad she brought them in safely. top notch work
It’s a case of just repeating ATC’s request but not understanding what you need to do.
scary stuff… especially when it’s such a simple instruction.
Agreed. I think when she called the traffic for him to follow, he was looking at the dude on final? Hard to say.
@@flyfishizationjones4940 yes, the one on downwind was 100 ft below him, so most likely he never saw him. Saw the other guy and confirmation bias kicked in. Didn't help that tower never told thim there was another Cessna on base/final.
I get the feeling that if she hadn't said "Cessna you're heading southbound now" he'd have landed somewhere in Cuba. Guy just had no idea where he was going.
That atc has a great voice for the radios, she's so easy to make out.
I have a feeling 2DC saw 9004W on final, assumed that's who tower was referring to, and never knew he was supposed to be looking for 51390 (and probably never knew he nearly hit them).
I was thinking the same.
Possibly, but he wasn't supposed to be turning base there anyway.
And I think that he, although he said he did, did not fully grasp the notion of what “landfill” meant… That guy should not be flying an airplane without instruction. And, weirdly, that plane is BASED there. Not a visitor, based! How the **** does one mess this up this bad at one’s local?!
@@pjotrtje0NL Took a peek and a picture of the plane, from 2 years ago, has a flight school's website on it. Student?
@@pjotrtje0NL Just the fact that the plane is based there, doesn't mean this pilot is very familiar with this airfield.
I think he ended up following the wrong Cessna. There was another C172 at his 12 o'clock position on long final.
“ he’s a menace to everything in the air.. yes birds too! “
“…flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.”
So help me, you’ll have to talk him right down to the ground!
Route him into Lake Michigan. At least he'll avoid killing innocent people.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
We should just run him into Lake Michigan.
“DO YOU REQUIRE ASSISTANCE??” 😂
She got to the point of not trusting anything 2DC did.
It was the “do not turn east” that got me.
@@keatonjohnson3057 _"DO NOT ROLL THE PLANE INVERTED AND PERFORM A SPLIT-S MANUEVER OVER THE RUNWAY, SIR!!!"_
Looks like he was visually downwind with the wrong runway.
Yeah agreed. Got confused and turned left downwind for RWY14 instead of right downwind for 32. Relatively easy mistake to make if you're in training I guess, but what happened after that when told to sight and follow the Cessna was pretty bad
From my professional 106hr pilot career I concur. (Sarcasm) 😂
I was going to say the same thing, looks like he was right downwind for runway 01 instead of 32 (hence cutting of the traffic on final for 32).
I noticed that as well.
was gonna comment this exactly
Drives me nuts that no one mentioned there was two blocked radio calls. Bravo job to the controller
Perceived blocked from where the audio source receiver for this video was located. Anyone in the pattern would have likely only heard the tower due to the more powerful transmission.
I still think you could hear the other transmission.
I’m a flight instructor and was southeast, exiting Republic airspace, when this happened and heard it on frequency. 51390 is one of our schools planes. My student sent the recording to me and I immediately gave it to the pilot of 51390. Although obviously a close call, we laughed it off, cause in the end that’s what you do. It’s even funnier now that it’s posted for thousands online to see 😂.
I don't know how much ATC makes, but it's not enough.
Definitely not enough at Farmingdale.
They make 6 figures once certified, and it comes from your taxes. Level of pay is dependent on how busy the traffic is at a facility
@@camdensquire4960 this is partially true. lots of controllers do make 6 figures, and most have the potential to if they max out the pay band at their facility. but there are also quite a few towers that "only" ever make high 5 figures
Considering that the lay at kfrg for controllers is just barely above the cost of living in the area... Annnnnnd how busy it is at that airport... definitely not enough. Working traffic patterns and student pilots is waaaaaaaaaaay more work than working commercial traffic. Trust me. Republic is probably harder to certify at than jfk.
Got curious for more context. Picture of 2DC (from 2 years ago) has a flight school's site painted on it. The "landfill" is pretty distinct, looks like a quarry. 2DC goes straight for a different industrial-looking area (concrete, construction, junk), passing over it around video timestamp 5:30. Then they follow N9004W (also a Cessna).
Not meant as excuses, just explanations.
I'm glad I'm learning in an environment like republic. It's so busy and shit like this happens all the time so you really learn to stay on your toes and pay attention. Republic is easily one of the busiest Class D's in the entire NAS, busier than most class C's tbh. One of my DPE's nicknamed it repulsive because of it.
busier than VNY?
Agreed. Got my PPL at Republic 20 years ago
@@dkoleary88 According to AirNav, yes. VNY has 630 movements per day average and FRG has 645. I’m surprised.
@dkoleary88 Not sure on the numbers. The other guy commented that it is, so I'll take his word for it. I will say though it is pretty common to be extended on downwind for 8 or 9 miles, the worst I've gotten is a 15 mile extension.
KIWA, my home is 697 per day
One of the most important things I took away in my training is; if you don't know, just ask. I use to to be afraid this bothered controllers, but if I've noticed anything, they're just happy to hear you trying to be accurate rather than forgetting and going off assumptions.
Great example of what happens when a pilot gets behind the airplane and loses situational awareness.
Armchair piloting this thing, it seems he didn't have a good mental image of where he was supposed to turn for the right downwind, setting up for a left downwind in the opposite direction instead. After that he was sufficiently shook up that later he mistook 04W for the traffic he was supposed to follow (and not 390) perhaps due to confirmation bias.
I like the way the controller managed it.
ATC should have given him headings, instead of saying repeatedly go downwind" for instance. If ur lost, someone gives this instruction, ur still lost.... Giving him headings would have both helped the pilot and ATC i am sure....
Totally agree, she should have directed him out of the pattern, let him regain his composure for a couple of minutes, then vectored him back into the downwind. A degree of proficiency is obviously expected of pilots but anyone can make a mistake and hectoring someone who’s obviously confused isn’t going to help.
Oh god..... the airport I learned to fly at. And the exact plane I learned to fly in
Was it from Long Island Aviators?
@@Boruch_Lunger yep
I can’t imagine knowing the plane you got to learn in got handled in such a way. It’d probably feel like your precious child being mishandled lol
@@MrMegaMario64 To be fair, that plane was never the pick of the litter. Like most planes flight schools have, they get abused. For example, that plane always had a heading indicator that was never accurate.
Slightly bent, one careful owner.
I frequently practice out of Farmingdale and it gets very busy with normal traffic and plenty of practice flights. The airspace can either be completely empty or very congested. The ATC at the airport always does a great job at getting people around safely.
I'm assuming he mistakenly turned for left downwind instead of right the first time around; after that things just got worse, his nerves were already shot and flustered.
After the first mess I thought not so bad. Then he's asked to get on the downwind and instead is basically cutting across to final (regardless of not seeing traffic!) I think he might have got disoriented regarding the airport pattern? His downwind got way to close to final.
I was thinking the same - it sounded like he was flustered, maybe just a task-saturated new pilot? Still, hope he still has an instructor to debrief. Too close!
4:23 I think the ATC should have had him turn 270 first, then said follow. He might have been following the wrong Cessna, N9004W. Pilot was overwhelmed and probably did not look towards 3 o'clock for the correct follow. Of course, repeat back would have helped the pilot keep the directions in order.
2DC should have been vectored away from the pattern and ordered to orbit until things 'quietened down'....then reintroduced to the pattern for his approach and landing.
I'm a CFI out of FRG, and from my experience, it takes a lot for FRG Tower to give someone a possible pilot deviation. It's a training airport, this stuff happens a lot (and by the way I got my CFI in 152DC - good little bird)
Someone should've said "blocked" or "stepped on each other" twice.
You're not supposed to. "Blocked" adds to the noise, and does not specify whose communication was blocked. That's why we end transmissions with callsigns. If they don't answer, you call them again. Someone saying "Blocked" is unnecessary.
@@scottycatman Pilot/controller glossary page B-1 identifies “Blocked” to indicate if a transmission has been distorted or interrupted.
I mean, she told him to turn westbound and follow the traffic when there was no reasonable way to do that. Errors on both sides here.
The fact that NOBODY said "blocked" the thwo times 2DC and Tower stepped on each other is a significant contributing factor.
That's when 2DC decided to do a 360 since he couldn't communicate with the tower to get his next instructions.
That puts you behind the airplane and diminishes your SA. He then got a visual on the wrong Cessna (two of them, one on downwind, one on base/final) and probably never realized he almost hit the other one. He was 100 feet above, in a low wing - the other traffic was most likely obscured. A little survival trick: fly a bit higher than pattern altitude in a high wing, and a bit lower in a low wing - it'll help you see traffuc around you.
Tower should've warned him there are two Cessnas next to him, and given him a bit of vectoring as he strayed from his assigned spot.
Overall, a good lesson in maintaining SA and investing in some sort of ADS-B IN capability.
That ATC will surely be dreaming of a move to somewhere like O'Hare tower, for an easier life !!
N512DC put your compass on E and exit my airspace. Great job by the controller. The pilot just didn't have the picture at all.
Good job to the ATC on stopping that guy from pretending he was a loitering anti air missile ready to shot down any random poor pilot around.
I used to fly out of Republic starting in the late 1970s and it was also packed with traffic back then. There were the same type of mistakes, close-calls and so on. In those days there was also Zahns Airport South of Southern State. Traffic landing on 32 at Republic had to turn base North of Southern State, which meant a short final on every approach to that runway. Runway one was left traffic only. Runway 19 required turn over 14 and then staying North of Southern State.
That tower controller did not help that much. Frustrating how she did not try to properly resolve the second conflict. Too much chatter on the radio, keep it to short simple instructions and talk later. This is something the controllers at my home airport do very well. Lots of training aircraft, they focus on getting simple instructions out if pilots are struggling with situational awareness. I know hindsight is 20/20 but it’s important to see this as a learning opportunity.
I found the instructions here very confusing. When the ATC said "turn midfield right downwind right now", 152DC was already flying parallel to the runway he was going to land on (i.e., he was already on the downwind leg, wasn't he?). When he complied with her instruction, this put him on an intersecting course with the plane which she then asked him to follow. I've never heard an ATC tell an aircraft to follow another if he was not already behind and on nearly the same heading.
Why was he reporting his position multiple times like it was an untowered airport. Complete lack of awareness and a couple close calls, this man does not need to be flying solo without extensive training
if you listen closely there was a second voice...makes it even more scary that his cfi was with him
To be fair, N9004W is also a Cessna. But yikes. I suppose the only thing that could have been better is to have N152DC do a left 270 to follow N51390. I'm guessing he got rattled by the initial foul-up. "Tower, request departure to the East. Will call when ready to reenter."
What it seems like to me is that the pilot was worried that he didn't get a response from atc joining the downwind, because he kept getting stepped on, and he didn't want to join downwind without approval, so he thought it was better to circle in the meantime. After the vectors, he assumed the controller left him on a downwind heading, and did not correct (it actually looked like he was on a downwind for the intersecting runway). Once he turned inbound, he saw his mistake and adjusted the lineup accordingly. I can sympathize with where the pilot went wrong.
That said, the controller was right to force a full stop, with the way mistakes were sequencing, because those other pilots were in danger as long as he stayed in that airspace
Here for the comments and just glad everyone was ok.
Sounds to me he was overwhelmed. vector him maybe...?
I thought that too, he could've really benefited a heading or two instead of "look for this, follow that"
No, that’s too logical. Controller chose the best option. Belittle him and make him even more flustered than he already was thereby making him even more dangerous.
Cannot be vectored in class D airspace in the US… separation is provided visually by the tower, the radar is only as a cross-check tool by ATC
I think there was doubling between the Tower and either the N152DC or another plane, but I have a feeling the doubling (or stepping on, keying at the same time) that's where this all fell apart like around 1:30 or so into this. Man
edit: wow now 5 minutes and so into this, this guy is reckless in the air what the heck is he thinking cutting off that plane. Holy cow, it's a good thing she kept him on the ground, jeez he needs some further training and I'm going to expect a number to call for pilot deviation? Not sure if that's going to happen, but it should. Jeez oh man wowswers!
Yeah, some transmissions got stepped on, but the instructions to follow the Cessna into the pattern was crystal clear. No excuse for that stunt.
Absolutely, that's the edit, by 5 minutes into this i realized no this pilot has way more than a possibly missed transmission going on here. Great work by ATC and the other involved pilot (s)
My guess is either 1) he didn't have the traffic in sight but said he did, or 2) he had some other traffic that he thought was the one to follow, but given the lack of other radar contacts, I'm guessing it was the first.
@@vsavatar I was thinking the second, looked like he was aiming to follow the Cessna on final not the one on downwind.
@@chrisschack9716 but the instruction was to follow the Cessna currently ON downwind. It doesn’t make sense to follow a Cessna on final thinking that was what the ATC is referring to
“You got a pen ….”
FRG busy as usual. I learned to fly there, back in the 90s.
I'm guessing there is a CFI having a bad day.
Prb had a chat with the chief pilot😬
The way he cutoff that 172 on the downwind and was heading for the other 172 on final makes me think he didn't actually see the 172 on the downwind. When he said "traffic in sight" he must have been looking at the 172 on final and thought he was following them, but she did say downwind. He said he was turning base when he was essentially already on base so I also thought for a minute that he was going to the wrong runway, like maybe runway 01. I think this was a case of him not listening to the whole message. I understand that we don't need to repeat the entire directions to keep the frequency clear but maybe he should have repeated, at least to himself, that the traffic is on the downwind.
Reminds me off my second solo when another student aircraft, with CFI inside, cut me off by a few hundred feet but that was on final.
6:36 is it just me or does that sound like Taylor from the nose wheel fall off incident?
I just said that to my wife....
She sounds like she's been listening to the frequency and she's already scared.
That was in Michigan.
I thought the same thing, but even more timid... I was expecting the controller to tell her she needs to speak up, though that probably would've flustered her even more
I thought the same
He clearly sighted the guy coming in over the shoreline as the one to follow in, instead of the one he was supposed to...
I hope not!! She told him traffic was at his 3 o clock 🤦🏾♂️
From the radar it looks as though the aircraft he was meant to follow was more like the 4 o'clock position, which would make acquiring the correct traffic pretty difficult
At the end there it seemed like he was in a downwind for the other runway
Jeez, hope she gave him a number to call. He needs some serious reassessment before flying again.
omg. My airport on VAS aviation again. You hate to see that.
the 2nd time he looks like he was on downwind for Rwy 1 instead of Rwy 32.
Who knew Lois Griffin was a tower controller? She did fine. She is not saying "just a heading" she is saying "suggest a heading..." She can't give the pilot a heading like approach or departure, she is limiting her liability and staying within her limits by saying "suggest" a heading of xxx. There's videos out there explaining how and why the language is used. A little scolding is expected and appreciated by pilots. Although some controllers get so bent out of shape they start making mistakes. When the one pilot said over the radio that they had to maneuver and it was close, that changed the whole situation and the FAA could take action on this.
Looks like he was setting up for RWY 1
There is absolutely no way at 4:14 that 152DC "follows" 51390. Just no way. He was already out east, she should've sent him on a 360 then join downwind.
I had a similar thought... for a pilot who seems to be at max capacity it wasn't an easy instruction
Hope she stays up north. Don’t want to deal with these types of Yankees.
I can’t tell you how many near mid-airs I nearly got into back in my corporate jet days. Mainly pilots not paying attention to what they were doing. Sometimes pilots didn’t even have operable comm radios. Some would be out flying IFR (I follow Roads).
At least he didn't argue.
Both jobs are not for the slow minded. You need to process information fast and accurate to fly and work at tower. I give them all a tremendous amount of respect, except the guy who's just about to lose 2 points on his license. 😬
To be fair to the pilot the tower’s instructions when she was telling him to follow the traffic could have been better. Why not just say “join the 45 degree left downwind behind the traffic” or “join the left midfield downwind”
Exactly.
You mean at 3:22 when she does say that?
@@PatrickMcDougle She kinda said it but then immediately subverts that by saying "follow the traffic." Obviously this pilot was having some issues following instructions, but having figured that out, the controller should have given very objective instructions like "go to the landfill and then enter the left downwind" rather than more subjective ones like "follow the traffic"
Not "a close call", it is "2 close calls".
Can’t confirm this, but I had a similar situation happen to me where my instructor tried to tell me to go into a downwind for 1 when we were cleared for 19, same exact plane too, idk if it’s the same instructor but haven’t flown with him since.
We're all human. This was pretty clearly a student pilot. While I'm not excusing their lack of understanding, I'm promoting the idea that there are a lot of pilots out there who have been flying for decades and have not yet familiarized themselves with how things work. Stay vigilant, keep your head on a swivel, regardless of your ratings. You're not immune to others actions/confusion. These thing just happen. It's simple reality. Always being prepared for encountering something like this is what will keep you safe.
Ahhh my airport back in the news i see. 🤦🤦🤦
That was crazy. I was just hoping that ATC gave him a number to call in. He clearly had no clue and his actions resulted in near misses in the pattern. In this case sorry, doesn’t hack it.
I hope they did not give him later takeoff clearance.
Good thing there is a cemetery next to the airfield, because if he keeps flying like that, he will surely need it.
i train out of this airport. n51390 belongs to my flight school. the airspace definitely gets hectic.
why do they always add "bound" to every heading instruction? Surely the instruction is to fly "north" or "south". You only add "bound" when you're describing what the intention of the aircraft is to another station.
Wrong. If you go south, you go heading 180. If you go southbound, you go any heading from 135 to 225
@@VASAviationthen i would have thought that the instruction woud be to fly northwards. And then when describing that aircraft to other traffic, you'd then use the term notthbound. In other words, its only " bound" after its established on its heading, not before. A descriptive word rather than an instuctional word. Anyway as long as everyone understands what it means I guess it doesnt matter but it always sounds a slightly odd useage of the word to me !
No deviation? Or was there a follow up later?
Do you think he was capable of flying a plane and copying down a phone number at the same time? He can be told to call the tower once he's on the ground.
@@thomasdalton1508 good point
A swift kick in the ass perhaps?
@@thomasdalton1508, the pilot might have an issue with walking & chewing gum at the same time.
I noticed something: DC's pilot tried to communicate two times but he was stepped over, most likely by the tower. I am curious of what he was trying to say, not that it excuses the "we were about to do a 360"...
I bet she had a large glass of wine on her off time
Woah I had the opportunity to fly once N152DC.
Overall tower handled this very well but given how confused the Cessna pilot was, she could have stopped using north/south once the initial danger was averted and just switched to clock, because he was probably thinking in about eight directions at once. I feel a little sorry for the guy but he was out of his depth and the tower did well to get him on the ground safely.
Stressful for sure but the last instruction "Do NOT turn to the East" was unnecessary and could be confusing. 2DC definitely was at fault for most of this confusion.
Controller cancelled the request for touch and goes to FULL STOP. Yeah, that was a good idea.
Does anyone think the instructions to 2DC to follow 390 might have been a bit to ambitious given their radar positions?
Wow so much going wrong with 2DC - Blocked twice and deciding on their own to do a 360, not understanding that "turning to follow the Cessna" means "Turn when they turn so you're spaced behind them" not "turn towards them immediately and ignore the fact that they're now closing with you"
Looking at Cessna on final not downwind as directed
Casual day at Republic.
Terrifying... looks like he mixed up the runways at the ende. He flew downwind from the other RWY. Wonder what aircraft he was following though. Absolutely no situational awareness...
Goodness gracious, the pilot in 152DC shouldn’t be piloting any aircraft. Unreal.
She stepped on 2DC not once, but twice.
That’s one long final approach. When Shan’s airport was on the other side of the parkway that pilot would not have survived. Arc did a good job. Is flight safety still based there?
52DC is definitely on the downwind for runway 01. He thinks he on downwind for 32 when he really isnt.
Typical case of loss of situational awareness. I'm pretty sure 2DC thought he was following 04W (another 172) that was actually on final and not downwind and lost his awareness of where he was in the pattern. Could easily happen to anyone and what's important is the lesson was taken home along with a safe conclusion.
2DC while flying over the landfill, go ahead and throw your pilot’s license out the window and heck while you are at it, throw your driver’s license too.
Why is he calling the downwind that far north?
She was more forgiving than I would have been -- I'd have told 2DC to get out of my airspace until he can follow instructions.
then he'd be someone else's problem. glad she decided to handle it and get them in safely.
The best way to get him out of her airspace was to get him on the ground, so that's what she did.
@OH Yes. Issue simple commands. "SIT. STAY. Good pilot."
Only KBDR controllers tell you to GTFO and never return. 😅
DC was headed out to sea as he was already out to sea XD.
What's harder traffic to call: a busy regional airport like this or ATL or the like?
KFRG is wild, they move as many aircraft as New Orleans daily, but its a mix of GA, private business jets, up to 737's, plus quite a few flight schools. Planes are flying in at all kinds of speeds and skill levels
Anyone know what the date of this was?
“We’re going to do a 360, sorry about that”
Sooo… going to turn back north again?
Wonder if he was solo or had passengers...
They talked over each other twice and neither knew it happened.
No number to call?
What's the date of this?
Looks and sounds (at least the pilot) like a normal evening on VATSIM...
Oh wait - this is real life? Oh geez...
Lol