Thank you for the very informative review. Couple of things: these are full track mono original recordings. In mastering these, there is zero ability to mix. The mix originally recorded is the mix you get. Our goal in the Tone Poet program is to give you the sound of the OG master tape. We do very little manipulation and often do none. Do they sound different than the OG pressings? Often they do....we had no interest in duplicating the sound of the OGs. To do that we would have do apply 8:1 compression as Rudy did in mastering and roll off the low end (again as Rudy did in mastering) to make the OGs playable on even kiddie record players of the day. He also typically bumped the midrange up a bit. You mentioned less audience noise on the live track on the TP edition. You're hearing the lack of compression on the TP. Our goal is to give the listener the same thrill we get in the studio when we put those master tapes up. By the way, I do have an absolutely mint OG of this album....I brought it brand new many years ago. You mentioned the sonic perspective on these older recordings. Remember that at that time, no one used baffles or multitrack recording. At Hackensack everything is in one room with the piano lid open and the drums right next to them. Drummers had to really control their dynamics to avoid drowning out everything else. The drums would get into all open microphones. In fact, everything would get into the open mics so you have a LOT of bleed between the mics. And of course, the mix is happening live with the recording as its going down. No "fixing it in the mix" is possible in that era.
Appreciate the reply and explanation. This is really interesting in that the listener's point of reference is limited to either the original pressing or previous reissues, and we often revert back to that as evidence of how the music "should" sound, and then we are surprised with reissues that change that perception. Obviously that's a flawed way of looking at it, and it's really exciting to hear how much is contained in those master tapes that you and the Tone Poet team make available to listeners sometimes for the first time. Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I hope you continue to nudge me closer to reality in future videos as well!
Thank you for the informative video. I just did a sound comparison video myself. I compared my new 2021 BN Classic Series Mono release of 6 Pieces of Silver By The Horace Silver Quintet up against my 1957 original mono pressing. I could hear a noticeable difference between the two, especially in the tone area. Treble levels sound higher on the 2021 classic series, especially during the use of Hayes’s crash cymbal. Regardless of the sonic differences I’ve experienced I have yet to hear a Tone Poet or Classic series I didn’t love. OGs to Reissues from master tapes the sound may vary for one reason or another but it’s yet to be a difference I can’t embrace and appreciate. Check out what I mean about the sound difference in Hayes’ crash cymbal in my video. I’ve included a link below. ua-cam.com/video/DI_fEnle3EY/v-deo.html Steve ua-cam.com/video/DI_fEnle3EY/v-deo.html Steve
Props to JH for dropping knowledge. Fact is almost none of us are going to get the privilege to hear the actual master tapes, which is why I take issue with anyone saying some old record is the "sound of the master tape" when they have no idea. I'm not saying you are doing this WCB, but I see this a lot from typical record collector types. They have no idea what they are talking about. RVG also hated vinyl BTW, and even when BN first reissued a ton of stuff on CD back in the 80s, it was very clearly stated on the back cover that no one touched those RVG mixes, they only transferred the tape and did mastering. FWIW I compared a TP to an early copy awhile back and preferred the TP, even though there was nothing wrong with the early copy per se. The TP just sounded a lot more alive to me, with better low end and midrange and more clarity overall. Here is a direct quote from RVG: "The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good."
Thanks! and yea, I didn't even realize that's why I liked side 2 more until I started getting into more of the detail behind the lineups on different tracks
Hey man great input and content here! I am a follower of all things jazz and audiophile on UA-cam and I can say you have a very unique and valuable perspective. I was glued to your track by track insight and the comparison to the Tone Poet. Having said that, I am going to urge you to change your philosophy on buying Tone Poets - what do they cost you, $39 each? For that amount you can provide valuable content and insight to the community, provided that you also have an original of said Tone Poet. I don't know if the views that currently come from your videos would offset that $39 investment, but I bet your viewership would grow if you did so. Hell, maybe even do the classic series if you have an original. Keeping rocking on and thanks for considering - Brandon
I have to agree with Brandon, I really find your comparisons between the original and the Tone Poet interesting and valuable. I just ordered a copy of the Tone Poet edition.
@@kristofferstack @Brandon Wolverton thanks to you both, and yea that makes sense to me about embracing the previously released Tone Poets. I haven't really been disappointed yet and if not anything else, it ensures I have the music to listen to while not having excessive plays on my originals I suppose
The version of "Mexico City" heard on this LP is indeed from the live Cafe Behomia sessions; however, it's from an earlier date than the recording of this song found on the Kenny Dorham Cafe Bohemia record. The version on this Burrell record is from March 31, 1956 (per the liner notes). The version heard on the Kenny Dorham record is from May 31, 1956 (per the liner notes). It's interesting to compare the two versions. The obvious difference between the two, for me, is that on the Kenny Burrell record, Burrell solos first...and on the Kenny Dorham record, Dorham solos first. Both versions of this song were included on the Kenny Dorham 'Complete Cafe Bohemia' sessions when it was released as a 2-CD set in the RVG series.
I hope you have Katanga because I think it’s the best Tone Poet I’ve heard. I have 22 of them and it’s at the top of my list. Great video as usual. Thanks!
Funny you mention, I completely forgot that I had that one as well. And you are so right, it’s so good as soon as I heard it, I listed my original on eBay because I knew I wouldn’t want to hear that copy again. Can’t believe what they did with that session
Thanks! and yea I got really into 10" stuff for a while because few were looking for them either online or in stores. I'll definitely cover some of that stuff in a future video.
Thanks for the info. I have the TP and on first listen I didn’t like the music, and especially didn’t like the sound quality. On repeat listens I liked it more. I don’t think it belongs in the TP series though.
Yea I guess the logic might be, if all they are trying to do is replicate or approximate the original, then release it in the BN 80 series, but if they are trying to do a "Tone Poet" i.e. Audiophile treatment, they include it in that series
great video, I'm in the category where i do not have orig BL but pick up all the classic/tone poets. Have been happy with them. Live in NYC/Manhattan here, where r at
i live in Atlanta, not exactly the best spot to be finding old jazz records so it's been a long and drawn out process for me in terms of finding what I'm looking for. What's great is the stream of these newer "audiophile" reissue series that sound as great as they do, from Tone Poet to Acoustic Sounds to some of the Craft releases
They decide for Stereo or Mono depending on what sounds best usually. This one does indeed not have a Stereo version, in 57 Rudy started recording Stereo along with Mono, in 59 he stopped doing Mono.
Yes, all of the Blue Note monos released after the October 1958 Art Blakey session were simply fold-downs. I believe Joe Harley has a preference for the stereo mixes, where a stereo master exists. In this particular case, as you stated, there doesn't appear to have been a stereo master.
I think Joe Harley said they'll use the stereo version where exists. RVG didn't do any stereo until 1957, so it would be interesting to hear those 70s reissues that claim to be stereo.
Yea, it’s an interesting strategy but I guess we have to remember that they want to give the people what they want, and these days the people coming to vinyl for the first time want to hear music as best as it can sound, and aren’t as concerned necessarily with preserving some sort of out of date conception about what a particular album “should” sound like. I love this series so much, even when it isn’t perfect in every single way
Thank you for the very informative review. Couple of things: these are full track mono original recordings. In mastering these, there is zero ability to mix. The mix originally recorded is the mix you get. Our goal in the Tone Poet program is to give you the sound of the OG master tape. We do very little manipulation and often do none. Do they sound different than the OG pressings? Often they do....we had no interest in duplicating the sound of the OGs. To do that we would have do apply 8:1 compression as Rudy did in mastering and roll off the low end (again as Rudy did in mastering) to make the OGs playable on even kiddie record players of the day. He also typically bumped the midrange up a bit. You mentioned less audience noise on the live track on the TP edition. You're hearing the lack of compression on the TP. Our goal is to give the listener the same thrill we get in the studio when we put those master tapes up. By the way, I do have an absolutely mint OG of this album....I brought it brand new many years ago. You mentioned the sonic perspective on these older recordings. Remember that at that time, no one used baffles or multitrack recording. At Hackensack everything is in one room with the piano lid open and the drums right next to them. Drummers had to really control their dynamics to avoid drowning out everything else. The drums would get into all open microphones. In fact, everything would get into the open mics so you have a LOT of bleed between the mics. And of course, the mix is happening live with the recording as its going down. No "fixing it in the mix" is possible in that era.
Thanks Joe for really making us understand the real magic Rudy made, and of course and most of all these musicians that made history
Appreciate the reply and explanation. This is really interesting in that the listener's point of reference is limited to either the original pressing or previous reissues, and we often revert back to that as evidence of how the music "should" sound, and then we are surprised with reissues that change that perception. Obviously that's a flawed way of looking at it, and it's really exciting to hear how much is contained in those master tapes that you and the Tone Poet team make available to listeners sometimes for the first time. Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I hope you continue to nudge me closer to reality in future videos as well!
Thank you for the informative video. I just did a sound comparison video myself. I compared my new 2021 BN Classic Series Mono release of 6 Pieces of Silver By The Horace Silver Quintet up against my 1957 original mono pressing. I could hear a noticeable difference between the two, especially in the tone area. Treble levels sound higher on the 2021 classic series, especially during the use of Hayes’s crash cymbal. Regardless of the sonic differences I’ve experienced I have yet to hear a Tone Poet or Classic series I didn’t love. OGs to Reissues from master tapes the sound may vary for one reason or another but it’s yet to be a difference I can’t embrace and appreciate. Check out what I mean about the sound difference in Hayes’ crash cymbal in my video. I’ve included a link below.
ua-cam.com/video/DI_fEnle3EY/v-deo.html
Steve
ua-cam.com/video/DI_fEnle3EY/v-deo.html
Steve
Props to JH for dropping knowledge.
Fact is almost none of us are going to get the privilege to hear the actual master tapes, which is why I take issue with anyone saying some old record is the "sound of the master tape" when they have no idea. I'm not saying you are doing this WCB, but I see this a lot from typical record collector types. They have no idea what they are talking about.
RVG also hated vinyl BTW, and even when BN first reissued a ton of stuff on CD back in the 80s, it was very clearly stated on the back cover that no one touched those RVG mixes, they only transferred the tape and did mastering.
FWIW I compared a TP to an early copy awhile back and preferred the TP, even though there was nothing wrong with the early copy per se. The TP just sounded a lot more alive to me, with better low end and midrange and more clarity overall.
Here is a direct quote from RVG:
"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good."
Great comparison. You do it best. I also enjoyed side 2 much more on this session. Now it makes sense!
Thanks! and yea, I didn't even realize that's why I liked side 2 more until I started getting into more of the detail behind the lineups on different tracks
Hey man great input and content here! I am a follower of all things jazz and audiophile on UA-cam and I can say you have a very unique and valuable perspective. I was glued to your track by track insight and the comparison to the Tone Poet. Having said that, I am going to urge you to change your philosophy on buying Tone Poets - what do they cost you, $39 each? For that amount you can provide valuable content and insight to the community, provided that you also have an original of said Tone Poet. I don't know if the views that currently come from your videos would offset that $39 investment, but I bet your viewership would grow if you did so. Hell, maybe even do the classic series if you have an original. Keeping rocking on and thanks for considering - Brandon
I have to agree with Brandon, I really find your comparisons between the original and the Tone Poet interesting and valuable. I just ordered a copy of the Tone Poet edition.
@@kristofferstack @Brandon Wolverton thanks to you both, and yea that makes sense to me about embracing the previously released Tone Poets. I haven't really been disappointed yet and if not anything else, it ensures I have the music to listen to while not having excessive plays on my originals I suppose
I think all the original BN sound better. But the price for tone poet it’s no competition
The version of "Mexico City" heard on this LP is indeed from the live Cafe Behomia sessions; however, it's from an earlier date than the recording of this song found on the Kenny Dorham Cafe Bohemia record. The version on this Burrell record is from March 31, 1956 (per the liner notes). The version heard on the Kenny Dorham record is from May 31, 1956 (per the liner notes). It's interesting to compare the two versions. The obvious difference between the two, for me, is that on the Kenny Burrell record, Burrell solos first...and on the Kenny Dorham record, Dorham solos first. Both versions of this song were included on the Kenny Dorham 'Complete Cafe Bohemia' sessions when it was released as a 2-CD set in the RVG series.
Ohhhh good call, I saw a month that started with M and in 1956 and must have glossed over that fact
Excellent review.
I hope you have Katanga because I think it’s the best Tone Poet I’ve heard. I have 22 of them and it’s at the top of my list. Great video as usual. Thanks!
Funny you mention, I completely forgot that I had that one as well. And you are so right, it’s so good as soon as I heard it, I listed my original on eBay because I knew I wouldn’t want to hear that copy again. Can’t believe what they did with that session
Great video… i bought the tone poet and will buy your vg- when ready :)
I'll keep ya posted ;)
Great review! Would love to see what ten inch records are behind you there. -- Mike
Thanks! and yea I got really into 10" stuff for a while because few were looking for them either online or in stores. I'll definitely cover some of that stuff in a future video.
Again, great in depth analysis Chris!
Thank you, much appreciated
Thanks for the info. I have the TP and on first listen I didn’t like the music, and especially didn’t like the sound quality. On repeat listens I liked it more. I don’t think it belongs in the TP series though.
Yea I guess the logic might be, if all they are trying to do is replicate or approximate the original, then release it in the BN 80 series, but if they are trying to do a "Tone Poet" i.e. Audiophile treatment, they include it in that series
great video, I'm in the category where i do not have orig BL but pick up all the classic/tone poets. Have been happy with them. Live in NYC/Manhattan here, where r at
i live in Atlanta, not exactly the best spot to be finding old jazz records so it's been a long and drawn out process for me in terms of finding what I'm looking for. What's great is the stream of these newer "audiophile" reissue series that sound as great as they do, from Tone Poet to Acoustic Sounds to some of the Craft releases
Great review and insights.
Thanks, very much appreciated
They decide for Stereo or Mono depending on what sounds best usually. This one does indeed not have a Stereo version, in 57 Rudy started recording Stereo along with Mono, in 59 he stopped doing Mono.
Yes, all of the Blue Note monos released after the October 1958 Art Blakey session were simply fold-downs. I believe Joe Harley has a preference for the stereo mixes, where a stereo master exists. In this particular case, as you stated, there doesn't appear to have been a stereo master.
I think Joe Harley said they'll use the stereo version where exists. RVG didn't do any stereo until 1957, so it would be interesting to hear those 70s reissues that claim to be stereo.
Yea, it’s an interesting strategy but I guess we have to remember that they want to give the people what they want, and these days the people coming to vinyl for the first time want to hear music as best as it can sound, and aren’t as concerned necessarily with preserving some sort of out of date conception about what a particular album “should” sound like. I love this series so much, even when it isn’t perfect in every single way