here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense. the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on. communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it. that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
Maybe it’s just me, but this parable is less about the seed (or idea), but rather, it’s more about the soil or ground in which the seed fell. If you don’t agree with me, then I encourage you to read further in the chapter where Jesus explains the meaning of the parable.
You’re correct. If the bird gets you, you feed the soul but not the body If the rock gets you you feed the body but not the soul. If the thorn gets you you are ignoring the other half of reality to have a bow rather than a thorn And if you feed the body and feed the soul, you get Chinese bamboo 🤭
The parable is about the sower. Disciples were to scatter the gospel like seeds so that it could grow wherever the soil was fertile. It overran the Roman Empire.
Yes, it’s very frustrating listening to these fellows. They get almost everything wrong! In this case Jesus’ explanation of the parable is clear as day! On one hand I appreciate Peterson getting people interested in scripture, but on the other hand his wrong interpretations lead people astray.
When the claim is the God said it, people tend to grow through great pains to make it 'infitnately deep'. A child could tell a story about walking to school, you could replace the narrator with God, and a religious person would make 'infinately deep' meaning out of it.
This meeting is a perfect example of the parable itself. The parable itself is a seed that has been sown everywhere, each of these people there are the soil. The interpretation and what each of them focuses on are the fruits. I'm afraid they focus too much on the details and miss the elephant in the room. The seed is a living word that is sown onto each soul, and it is the openness of each soul that determines the fertility of the soil. But the purpose of this is not just to understand it. Their meetings are of great value for sure, but what they lack is a living application of the words. We are supposed to look into our souls and think if we are a fertile soil. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm not and I have to work on myself. And that's the point, not just understanding it intellectually, but contemplating on how that personally relates to us and what we can do to become better soil.
It is quite an in depth conversation and parable that could be construed in many ways as they were discussing, though as a layman like myself could think of a comparable situation that would, or could, apply, and then feel like I’m really stretching for a meaning and then totally discount my idea, never knowing if I was on the right track or not! I will pray for more knowledge for better comprehension of all the stories of Jesus Christ!
This parable is about the heart that receives the seed. The heart that receives, gives birth to fruit. This is the true sign of belief in the Messiah. No fruit, equals, no conversion.
Yup. We(our souls and bodies) are the ground(remember how Adam was created from the ground). The seed is our spirit. We all share the same spirit but have different souls. Our spirits are perfect, created in Gods image. Our souls and bodies are not perfect because they are sinful. Adam's spirit(which connected him to God) died when he sinned. His soul and body remained.
As one person said in the comments “the seed is the Word of God (The Gospel, or as Catholics would say, the Kerygma) and the soils are the hearts of men.” The parable shows that one type of person, the good soil, hears the Word of God, and receives Jesus’ offer of Salvation, and Repents and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. The other three types of people are lost, and remain damned.
So I wonder why all these folks around the table talk about every other possible view instead of the actual meaning of the text which is what you have stated here 🤔
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense. the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on. communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it. that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
It's interesting how the parable highlights the different responses to the Word of God, showing that the condition of one's heart plays a crucial role. Do you think that the soil represents our actions and choices over time, or is it something more internal, like a person's mindset or willingness to change? What do you believe determines whether someone’s heart is more like good soil or rocky ground?
@@TruthUncoveredStories you just highlighted the problem with religion and free will. the fact is that in order to choose to be better, you must first have that ability. I don't "choose" not to rape steal and murder, I simply don't want to do those things in the first place. do people "choose" to be gay ? no of course not. religion and free will are absurd.
Good Question - I believe that it is “something internal.” I’ve heard many sermons on this over the last 50 years and I know many people in all four categories. Jesus describes them very well in Matthew 13:18-23. The most difficult and most heartbreaking are the people whose hearts are like the wayside. The seeds cannot penetrate at all and the devil quickly snatches it away. These are people whose hearts are hardened against God and that is generally because of Pride! It can be the intellectual type who thinks he’s too smart for God and this is all nonsense, or it can be self righteous pride, e.g. “I’m a good person.” These folks tend to resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And of course no one can be converted unless they feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit and are broken over their sin, and Repent. I find these folks to be extremely difficult to reach. The ones on Rocky soil have a chance. They understand the truth of the Gospel but turned from it due to persecution and suffering, but they still know it’s true. So Jesus leaves the 99 and goes after the one lost sheep, convicts him, and brings him home. Same with the person who who “got choked out by the thorns”. They too know the truth but fell away due to riches and pleasure of the world, so through sound preaching or hearing testimony of believers they can be brought back into the fold. But those by the wayside… Oh my. As Paul said, if our gospel is veiled it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose eyes have been blinded by ‘the god of this age’ (Satan). I would hope as people age, getting closer to death they would be more open to hearing, comprehending and believing the Gospel but I find the opposite. The old person who is proud seems to become more and more entrenched in their unbelief. Billy Graham frequently quoted Proverbs, “He who stiffens his neck repeatedly will be suddenly cut off and that without remedy.” Wayside people make me weep for their souls!
To all of my fellow bothers and sister in Christ struggling with this explanation of the text, I implore you to take a moment and humble yourself. What these men are talking about is just one more point of view of the text, and is still in line with what Christ was teaching. Sew good seeds into good ground. The word is an idea, the gospel is a good idea! It’s the best idea ever, it’s an enterprise no one else has ever come close to accomplish, and our God was the only one to do it perfectly “what if I come down and die to save all humanity? What if those who were then saved, went to try and bring others to me?” Christ is trying to teach his disciples how to take ideas in general and plant them in good ground. Of course, we read this and understand that he came with a mission and so we place that mission in front of him, but what if our eternal God was not also speaking to us about the salvation that was to come but how to also conduct ourselves in life at the same time? It’s almost like the parable is vague and mysterious enough for more than one perspective to understand it and it still be true under those different lights. If you can’t handle that, I think you’ve come to the wrong place for the 1 dimensional biblical interpretation 😂😂😂
There were two guys on crosses next to Jesus when he was being crucified. One of the guys repented and accepted Jesus, and Jesus forgave him so that he would be received in heaven. This specifically displays that its never too late. That guy wasted 99.999...% of his life but when God called, he said yes. From a materialistic standpoint it would still seem ole boy's life was a waste. Yet, here we are still reading about him 2000 years later. I dont consider that a failure. He obeyed God and is now with God, thats success. "Success" is finding Gods purpose for our lives. And Gods timing is always perfect.
So, tell me the answer to this, then, based on actual events: A boy is assaulted by a religious authority. As a result, the boy turns his back on God. The religious authority begs forgiveness. Who is rewarded with heaven?
@@scribbler60 any who repent Also, Heaven isn't our "reward". There is still justice and some price to pay. Heaven is a gift to us, not something we merit.
My interpretation of it is he is talking about people… he is making a metaphor for the environment one grows up in… the seed is us while the soil is life and love… like the seed we don’t get to choose were we land in this life, some grow up in soil barren of love and some grow up in the thorns with their life choked out of them…. If your lucky you get to land in a patch a good soil with good people around you who love you and you grow up wanting to see the same for others… and those who benefit from the good upbringing are benefiting from the fruit of the tree that is you… while you are 1 person you can spread love and hope to many others by simply making sure you take care of the environment around you (the community) and making sure that when the next seed is planted that their is love in the soil for future generations of our human seed…..
Thank you Jordan for having your time to bring your experience and knowledge for the table of fully expression and dialogue. You are doing a work for the humanity .
It is quite an in depth conversation and parable that could be construed in many ways as they were discussing, though as a layman like myself could think of a comparable situation that would, or could, apply, and then feel like I’m really stretching for a meaning and then totally discount my idea, never knowing if I was on the right track or not! I will pray for more knowledge for better comprehension of all the stories of Jesus Christ!
I don't think this story is so much about the seeds of ideas, but planting the seeds of "understandings. The reason why Jesus says let those who have ears hear is because when we truly understand the teachings, we will plant the seeds properly, and they will root and have much fruit. But if we don't truly understand the teachings, then those seeds just wash away.
Yea.... the "ears to hear" means a willingness to learn. When Jesus said this he knew there were people in the crowd who really just wanted to "see a show" but had no real desire to "listen". Not much different today. People go to church week after week hearing but not listening.
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense. the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on. communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it. that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
Jesus Himself (the Word of God) is both the Seed and the Good Soil The Seed/Soil is also the kingdom of God.. When He is received into the heart joined to Him we become the good soil.. Shalom
Pretty sure the seed is the Word of God. Now that seed will grow in the hearts of men. The bird/stone/soil reflects that we all have distractions or challenges. The ones that have Christ, have the right foundation for the seed (word of God) to grow. Easy. He who has ears, let him hear. All glory to God.
Jesus is talking about the Word of God when he speaks of the seed. The ground it falls on refers to the heart of the person receiving that Word. Jesus didn't make anything complicated. He was preparing his disciples to go out into the world and preach the Gospel - and using these simple parables were one way that he made sure these men understood the meaning of the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God. The fact that you can philosophically develop the parables to demonstrate other logical meanings just proves the depth and the richness of the living Word, but I hope that new Christians aren't trying to get their theology from this series.
They got stuck on the seed that they forgot the rest of the parable. The most noticeable part of the parable was the state of the ground and it barely got analyzed. Also the parable has less to do with society and more to do with one's heart.
To translate "logos" as "idea" is partly correct but also partly misleading because of modern assumptions regarding the notion of "idea" (as unreal abstraction). (As JP comments, to translate the term as "word" can also be misleading if we assume that it is reducible to some facile notion of utterance.) @andrewmcgee5266 is indeed correct to note also that the purpose of the parable is to compare different conditions of soil that are like different conditions of listeners. The ultimate goal of both analogies, however, is to recover the biblical image of a garden to depict human cooperation in the reception of divine act of interpersonal self-giving. A full exposition of these analogies appears in the third and fourth chapters of _The Lost Seeds of Learning_ (Classical Academic Press, 2021).
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense. the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on. communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it. that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
Faith is the water which makes the seeds grow. God is so multidimensional, we could spend a lifetime unpacking His mysteries and even then we can't really grasp them. Ofcourse I don't know, but I think that the ultimate goal on personal level could be theosis (Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox)/divinization (Latin Catholic). That is full Union with God.
Jesus in this story is speaking to his disciples to explain to them why so few people who hear his teaching and seem to respond fail to continue in the path he is laying out for them; it has to do with their lack of spiritual capacity. The Bible uses fish and bird to symbolize ideas as such. Jesus uses seeds here more in the sense of a broader sense of inspiration at the heart level.
Another important part of the parable is the sower, which represents the disciples. In chapter 13 Christ was explaining to them how to the kingdom of heaven will grow and develop. The disciples were sent out with the gospel (seed) into Israel. Many would not receive the gospel, but lest they be discouraged, Christ told them in this parable that there would be various different types of people (ground) who would not receive his teaching. This parable helped the disciples understand the reaction of the people to the message of the gospel.
In our bible study this is how I see the parable. The seeds are obviously the word of GOD. Depending of the heart, all people are different soil and in different way they receive the word and understand it. But you can see that Nobody is a good soil, not even the disciples because even they needed the explanation of Jesus. So, without Jesus, you can not understand the bible. That is why you have to pray before we read it and we have to pray for every message we hear in the churches so we can understand if it is from God at all. For Jesus is the Son of God not because we read the bible but because it has been reveal to us by the Father who is in Heaven. Matthew 16: 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
We are the soil. What kind of soil is the question. But do not lose hope if you are not the good soil at the end of the parable. Because birds can be scared away, rocks and thorns can be removed. I also believe the soil can be moved to a good spot. Christian children today are likely to be potted soil, the seed can grow but is limited until it is transfered into the ground to become a fully fruitful tree.
The seed is the word of God and the soil is the type of people who can either hear it and make it grow or cannot bc they are dry and lifeless or choke what they receive
The parable of the soils teaches that the gospel won't be received by everyone equally. At least three things can interfere: sinful opposition, outside persecution and peer pressure and the attraction of the world's pleasures. But if it does take root, God's Word will produce a fruitful life. Source: Quest Study Bible
I Corinthians 15:35-38 NKJV But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain-perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
When you listen to what he is saying… I can see how he comes to those conclusions but I don’t think it was made to be this complicated; I think it was made to be relevant to all levels of complexity
Please help me understand. This story speaks of seed that falls into unsown land. Some withers, some lives weakly, and some grows many times stronger than the sown seeds. He emphasizes the fruit yield on the last set in contrast to sown seeds. Are seeds people who have been cast out of society in various conditions of living? Some doomed while a remaining third might thrive more than expected? I heard his story but I'm still unpacking it.
The seed is the Word of God, the soil is the state of heart. Stony is stubborn and does not change - the word sprouts but dies because it wasn't properly planted. The birds taking from the ground are those that do not listen - they never gave the word a chance. The thorns are people that are open to all ideas - they cannot hold contradictions, they hold on to sin, so the sprouted plant dies.
@@DoubleOhSilver What is the representation of the seed that thrives outside of the sown soil? What lesson do we learn from the seeds that thrived many times more than the sown seeds?
@ I very much appreciate this whole series and the material JP is putting out. I actually don’t know every individual in the panel or they haven’t spoken up much so I don’t hear anyone drawing them back into the meaning of the text. From observation of the clips, philosophers and psychologists can read so much into the text that it goes beyond understanding or over the meaning of the text. Granted, I think this is the whole point of the series, but I think the discussion should be grounded and rooted in the meaning before it’s elaborated or being read into. Without tracing and stemming from what the text actually says, it can veer off way too much and the meaning gets lost. Again, the series is meant for that, but it would be helpful to start with what the text actually means then take off from there. I think New Testsment Bibical scholars like DA Carson, Andy Naselli, or Thomas Schreiner would be a great addition.
From left to right, those are Dennis Prager, Dr. Douglas Hedley, Dr. Stephen Blackwood, Jonathan Pageau, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Bishop Robert Barron, Gregg Hurwitz, Dr. James Orr and Dr. John Vervaeke.
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense. the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on. communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it. that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
Soil is the earth 🌍 = our ❤ Seed = God’s word Bird Satan 🦅 Your listening, understanding and applying determines how soft or hard your heart is towards God and His Word and also determines how FRUITFUL we are. Both Spiritually and physically ❤️ ♥️ 💔
The panel never got the parable. Reading the comments it seems the viewers never got it either. I suppose it's true that many are called but few are chosen
I must say hopefully without offending that the interpretation of Jordan P seems elementary to the long doctrines of the Catholic Church. Been there done that centuries ago. Not new as much as I like his lectures.
The seed is the word of God..which invites us to believe in the knowledge of God rather than our ideas! belief is greater than ideas.. the soil is the heart..there are different conditions of every heart. Faith ..which is belief & becomes trust in God's ways. Ones belief is tried by fire..to be purified..& can come forth as gold!
As with all scripture, the challenge is to understand what the scripture means by what it says. What it means to me without knowing what it means, leads to mis-application. The sower is the believer, the seed is the gospel, the soil is the heart, the soil that produces good fruit is the heart that has been prepared by God. Believers are called to always be casting the seed. Preparing the heart is Gods work, we are the means by which God accomplishes His work. Jesus said all that the Father gives me will come and I will not lose even one. Many will make professions of knowing Christ, few will actually KNOW Christ. Thankfully, the harvest is not based on how perfectly we cast seed. That’s not to say we shouldn’t take seriously how we share the gospel. Jesus said, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. We celebrate, when He saves, disciple those who believe, and keep casting seed.
This is one of the few parables where Jesus tells what it means before he tells the parable. It's that simple. Go read the original and it's clear as day.
Blindness. “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, And shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27 KJV Paul definitely knows about blindness. 3:52
Matthew 13 New International Version The Parable of the Sower 13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
It is remarkable how nine seemingly leading voices of thought can so badly understand a parable when Jesus explains it if they would just care enough to read further in the text. It seems that they are not interested in faithful exegesis of the text and enjoy philosophizing just to hear their own rhetoric. The orthodox interpretation for this parable is quite simple: the seed is the Gospel and the soils are four conditions of people and their reception of the Gospel. In all the soils, the Gospel does not last (even though in certain cases there seems to be the appearance of doing so) except for one. The soil in which the Gospel takes root is evidenced when a yield of fruit is produced. This fruit has to do with following Christ, growing in holiness, the godly attributes of love, kindness, mercy, etc. Why not stick with Jesus’ own explanation? I guess in their minds, it doesn’t make for a good discussion.
This parable is to contrast the Rabbi's expected Messianic physical Kingdom of God with the actual kingdom of God which is not the kind of kingdom they're expecting . They wanted armies and an empire . Jesus is talking about believing in our hearts in Him. It's the same idea in the vision of the statue in Daniel. Man's kingdoms compared to God's.
This parable seems inherently unfair. What choice do I have what kind of soil I am? If I have a choice then it seems like there's some kind of merit to salvation. Can that be right?
@chrisdaniels3929 but i'm a heterosexual man, I love women. why would I want to go to a heaven and worship a bunch of men ? all the angels were men, jesus and god.... ALL MEN. to me that's gay and DISGUSTING.
(REPENTANCE) To turn away from your old ways and turn to God. (GOOD GROUND) A HUMBLE heart (Soft soil) (GOOD SEED) Receiving the holy spirit (SALVATION)
Blessings, ABBA FATHER GOD created the simplest of fabrics (H²O,waters) to sustain ALL forms of life here on earth 🌎🌍🌏 🌱LIFE IS BUT A VAPOUR 🌹 The Bow is a river in the HOLY BIBLE 🎉 HABAKKUK 3:8-10 🙌 ALLELUIA 🙌 A-MEN' 🌿
I'm sorry ...what did I just listen to... the passage was not exegeted, but philosophisized. Jordan Peterson is brilliant but he's not a theologian the others on the panel should have hermeneutically applied scripture to the parable of the sower. God bless
I don't think this parable could be any simpler. The seed is the word of God that is heard and grows into faith or doesn't. Love this group but they fall into the hazard of overthinking.
I feel like this is one of those conversations we're their talking about it so far beyond the point there adding to it missing the point. Because as many times as I've read this parable, I've never thought of it in some of those ways, and why would I.
Whatever these guys are talking about is not Christianity. What are these talks supposed to be? Sounds like a bunch of intellectuals trying to sound like they know the Gospel.
The seed is the Word of God. The soil is the hearts of men.
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense.
the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on.
communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it.
that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
Maybe it’s just me, but this parable is less about the seed (or idea), but rather, it’s more about the soil or ground in which the seed fell. If you don’t agree with me, then I encourage you to read further in the chapter where Jesus explains the meaning of the parable.
Agreed; the seed Jesus speaks of is good; He isn't talking about corrupted seed, but corrupted growing conditions.
You’re correct.
If the bird gets you, you feed the soul but not the body
If the rock gets you you feed the body but not the soul.
If the thorn gets you you are ignoring the other half of reality to have a bow rather than a thorn
And if you feed the body and feed the soul, you get Chinese bamboo 🤭
The seed is the word of God and the soil/ground being the hearts of men.
The parable is about the sower. Disciples were to scatter the gospel like seeds so that it could grow wherever the soil was fertile. It overran the Roman Empire.
@@Mypresident1986that’s how I learned also.
I love how they try to unpack every level of meaning from this parable when the meaning is quite simple
Lol it is kind of funny. Somethings dont need to be intellectualized so much.
Why not have both
Yes, it’s very frustrating listening to these fellows. They get almost everything wrong! In this case Jesus’ explanation of the parable is clear as day! On one hand I appreciate Peterson getting people interested in scripture, but on the other hand his wrong interpretations lead people astray.
When the claim is the God said it, people tend to grow through great pains to make it 'infitnately deep'. A child could tell a story about walking to school, you could replace the narrator with God, and a religious person would make 'infinately deep' meaning out of it.
@@DouglasKindred
That begs the question of how you know his interpretation is wrong and yours is right.
This meeting is a perfect example of the parable itself.
The parable itself is a seed that has been sown everywhere, each of these people there are the soil. The interpretation and what each of them focuses on are the fruits. I'm afraid they focus too much on the details and miss the elephant in the room. The seed is a living word that is sown onto each soul, and it is the openness of each soul that determines the fertility of the soil.
But the purpose of this is not just to understand it. Their meetings are of great value for sure, but what they lack is a living application of the words. We are supposed to look into our souls and think if we are a fertile soil. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm not and I have to work on myself. And that's the point, not just understanding it intellectually, but contemplating on how that personally relates to us and what we can do to become better soil.
Underrated comment
Agreed. I got almost nothing out of their discussion. I had to go back to hear the parable.
@@DoubleOhSilver It's a shame we didn't hear bishop Barron's take on it, I think he would explain it well
God bless you for puting all these out for free
It is quite an in depth conversation and parable that could be construed in many ways as they were discussing, though as a layman like myself could think of a comparable situation that would, or could, apply, and then feel like I’m really stretching for a meaning and then totally discount my idea, never knowing if I was on the right track or not! I will pray for more knowledge for better comprehension of all the stories of Jesus Christ!
This parable is about the heart that receives the seed. The heart that receives, gives birth to fruit. This is the true sign of belief in the Messiah. No fruit, equals, no conversion.
Yup. We(our souls and bodies) are the ground(remember how Adam was created from the ground). The seed is our spirit.
We all share the same spirit but have different souls. Our spirits are perfect, created in Gods image. Our souls and bodies are not perfect because they are sinful.
Adam's spirit(which connected him to God) died when he sinned. His soul and body remained.
Be the fertile ground in which the Word can bloom
As one person said in the comments “the seed is the Word of God (The Gospel, or as Catholics would say, the Kerygma) and the soils are the hearts of men.” The parable shows that one type of person, the good soil, hears the Word of God, and receives Jesus’ offer of Salvation, and Repents and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. The other three types of people are lost, and remain damned.
So I wonder why all these folks around the table talk about every other possible view instead of the actual meaning of the text which is what you have stated here 🤔
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense.
the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on.
communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it.
that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
It's interesting how the parable highlights the different responses to the Word of God, showing that the condition of one's heart plays a crucial role. Do you think that the soil represents our actions and choices over time, or is it something more internal, like a person's mindset or willingness to change? What do you believe determines whether someone’s heart is more like good soil or rocky ground?
@@TruthUncoveredStories you just highlighted the problem with religion and free will.
the fact is that in order to choose to be better, you must first have that ability.
I don't "choose" not to rape steal and murder, I simply don't want to do those things in the first place.
do people "choose" to be gay ?
no of course not.
religion and free will are absurd.
Good Question - I believe that it is “something internal.” I’ve heard many sermons on this over the last 50 years and I know many people in all four categories. Jesus describes them very well in Matthew 13:18-23. The most difficult and most heartbreaking are the people whose hearts are like the wayside. The seeds cannot penetrate at all and the devil quickly snatches it away. These are people whose hearts are hardened against God and that is generally because of Pride! It can be the intellectual type who thinks he’s too smart for God and this is all nonsense, or it can be self righteous pride, e.g. “I’m a good person.” These folks tend to resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And of course no one can be converted unless they feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit and are broken over their sin, and Repent. I find these folks to be extremely difficult to reach. The ones on Rocky soil have a chance. They understand the truth of the Gospel but turned from it due to persecution and suffering, but they still know it’s true. So Jesus leaves the 99 and goes after the one lost sheep, convicts him, and brings him home. Same with the person who who “got choked out by the thorns”. They too know the truth but fell away due to riches and pleasure of the world, so through sound preaching or hearing testimony of believers they can be brought back into the fold. But those by the wayside… Oh my. As Paul said, if our gospel is veiled it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose eyes have been blinded by ‘the god of this age’ (Satan). I would hope as people age, getting closer to death they would be more open to hearing, comprehending and believing the Gospel but I find the opposite. The old person who is proud seems to become more and more entrenched in their unbelief. Billy Graham frequently quoted Proverbs, “He who stiffens his neck repeatedly will be suddenly cut off and that without remedy.” Wayside people make me weep for their souls!
Love this series! Keep 'em coming!
To all of my fellow bothers and sister in Christ struggling with this explanation of the text, I implore you to take a moment and humble yourself. What these men are talking about is just one more point of view of the text, and is still in line with what Christ was teaching. Sew good seeds into good ground. The word is an idea, the gospel is a good idea! It’s the best idea ever, it’s an enterprise no one else has ever come close to accomplish, and our God was the only one to do it perfectly “what if I come down and die to save all humanity? What if those who were then saved, went to try and bring others to me?” Christ is trying to teach his disciples how to take ideas in general and plant them in good ground. Of course, we read this and understand that he came with a mission and so we place that mission in front of him, but what if our eternal God was not also speaking to us about the salvation that was to come but how to also conduct ourselves in life at the same time? It’s almost like the parable is vague and mysterious enough for more than one perspective to understand it and it still be true under those different lights. If you can’t handle that, I think you’ve come to the wrong place for the 1 dimensional biblical interpretation 😂😂😂
There were two guys on crosses next to Jesus when he was being crucified. One of the guys repented and accepted Jesus, and Jesus forgave him so that he would be received in heaven.
This specifically displays that its never too late.
That guy wasted 99.999...% of his life but when God called, he said yes. From a materialistic standpoint it would still seem ole boy's life was a waste. Yet, here we are still reading about him 2000 years later. I dont consider that a failure. He obeyed God and is now with God, thats success. "Success" is finding Gods purpose for our lives. And Gods timing is always perfect.
So, tell me the answer to this, then, based on actual events:
A boy is assaulted by a religious authority. As a result, the boy turns his back on God. The religious authority begs forgiveness.
Who is rewarded with heaven?
@@scribbler60 any who repent
Also, Heaven isn't our "reward". There is still justice and some price to pay. Heaven is a gift to us, not something we merit.
“‘There must be someway outta here,’ said the Joker to the Thief.’” It’s about the two thieves being crucified alongside the Lord.
My interpretation of it is he is talking about people… he is making a metaphor for the environment one grows up in… the seed is us while the soil is life and love… like the seed we don’t get to choose were we land in this life, some grow up in soil barren of love and some grow up in the thorns with their life choked out of them…. If your lucky you get to land in a patch a good soil with good people around you who love you and you grow up wanting to see the same for others… and those who benefit from the good upbringing are benefiting from the fruit of the tree that is you… while you are 1 person you can spread love and hope to many others by simply making sure you take care of the environment around you (the community) and making sure that when the next seed is planted that their is love in the soil for future generations of our human seed…..
The farmer never stopped sowing, although some seeds will eventually die. God bless you. 🇯🇵 #Totheendoftheearth.
Thank you Jordan for having your time to bring your experience and knowledge for the table of fully expression and dialogue. You are doing a work for the humanity .
It is quite an in depth conversation and parable that could be construed in many ways as they were discussing, though as a layman like myself could think of a comparable situation that would, or could, apply, and then feel like I’m really stretching for a meaning and then totally discount my idea, never knowing if I was on the right track or not! I will pray for more knowledge for better comprehension of all the stories of Jesus Christ!
I don't think this story is so much about the seeds of ideas, but planting the seeds of "understandings. The reason why Jesus says let those who have ears hear is because when we truly understand the teachings, we will plant the seeds properly, and they will root and have much fruit. But if we don't truly understand the teachings, then those seeds just wash away.
Yea.... the "ears to hear" means a willingness to learn. When Jesus said this he knew there were people in the crowd who really just wanted to "see a show" but had no real desire to "listen".
Not much different today. People go to church week after week hearing but not listening.
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense.
the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on.
communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it.
that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
The seed is the word of God, is not an idea, is the Truth explained trough the word. And the soil is each human being.
I have always seen this parable spiritually but I've got to apply it financially ❤
Good luck. Money can be a spiritual tool as well.
Jesus Himself (the Word of God) is both the Seed and the Good Soil The Seed/Soil is also the kingdom of God.. When He is received into the heart joined to Him we become the good soil.. Shalom
Ears hear sound. A frequency range.
Eyes see light. A different frequency range.
Who created light, kids?
Good job!!!! 👏👏👍
Blessings
Pretty sure the seed is the Word of God. Now that seed will grow in the hearts of men. The bird/stone/soil reflects that we all have distractions or challenges. The ones that have Christ, have the right foundation for the seed (word of God) to grow. Easy. He who has ears, let him hear. All glory to God.
Jesus is talking about the Word of God when he speaks of the seed. The ground it falls on refers to the heart of the person receiving that Word. Jesus didn't make anything complicated. He was preparing his disciples to go out into the world and preach the Gospel - and using these simple parables were one way that he made sure these men understood the meaning of the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God. The fact that you can philosophically develop the parables to demonstrate other logical meanings just proves the depth and the richness of the living Word, but I hope that new Christians aren't trying to get their theology from this series.
They got stuck on the seed that they forgot the rest of the parable. The most noticeable part of the parable was the state of the ground and it barely got analyzed. Also the parable has less to do with society and more to do with one's heart.
To translate "logos" as "idea" is partly correct but also partly misleading because of modern assumptions regarding the notion of "idea" (as unreal abstraction). (As JP comments, to translate the term as "word" can also be misleading if we assume that it is reducible to some facile notion of utterance.) @andrewmcgee5266 is indeed correct to note also that the purpose of the parable is to compare different conditions of soil that are like different conditions of listeners. The ultimate goal of both analogies, however, is to recover the biblical image of a garden to depict human cooperation in the reception of divine act of interpersonal self-giving. A full exposition of these analogies appears in the third and fourth chapters of _The Lost Seeds of Learning_ (Classical Academic Press, 2021).
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense.
the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on.
communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it.
that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
You are the soil
The word is the seed.
Some sprout quickly the perish just as rapidly.
Others the word take root and share the word.
Thanks
Faith is the water which makes the seeds grow. God is so multidimensional, we could spend a lifetime unpacking His mysteries and even then we can't really grasp them. Ofcourse I don't know, but I think that the ultimate goal on personal level could be theosis (Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox)/divinization (Latin Catholic). That is full Union with God.
Jesus in this story is speaking to his disciples to explain to them why so few people who hear his teaching and seem to respond fail to continue in the path he is laying out for them; it has to do with their lack of spiritual capacity. The Bible uses fish and bird to symbolize ideas as such. Jesus uses seeds here more in the sense of a broader sense of inspiration at the heart level.
Another important part of the parable is the sower, which represents the disciples. In chapter 13 Christ was explaining to them how to the kingdom of heaven will grow and develop. The disciples were sent out with the gospel (seed) into Israel. Many would not receive the gospel, but lest they be discouraged, Christ told them in this parable that there would be various different types of people (ground) who would not receive his teaching. This parable helped the disciples understand the reaction of the people to the message of the gospel.
"With each idea we build the cosmos"
Something, that at some level (or , in a scene) can be called
@ ❤️
In our bible study this is how I see the parable. The seeds are obviously the word of GOD. Depending of the heart, all people are different soil and in different way they receive the word and understand it. But you can see that Nobody is a good soil, not even the disciples because even they needed the explanation of Jesus. So, without Jesus, you can not understand the bible. That is why you have to pray before we read it and we have to pray for every message we hear in the churches so we can understand if it is from God at all. For Jesus is the Son of God not because we read the bible but because it has been reveal to us by the Father who is in Heaven.
Matthew 16:
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
We are the soil. What kind of soil is the question. But do not lose hope if you are not the good soil at the end of the parable. Because birds can be scared away, rocks and thorns can be removed. I also believe the soil can be moved to a good spot. Christian children today are likely to be potted soil, the seed can grow but is limited until it is transfered into the ground to become a fully fruitful tree.
Clip of clips 8:26 - 9:31
The seed is the word of God and the soil is the type of people who can either hear it and make it grow or cannot bc they are dry and lifeless or choke what they receive
I WISH I COULD BE TALKING FACE TO FACE WITH ALL OF YOU.
The parable of the soils teaches that the gospel won't be received by everyone equally. At least three things can interfere: sinful opposition, outside persecution and peer pressure and the attraction of the world's pleasures. But if it does take root, God's Word will produce a fruitful life.
Source: Quest Study Bible
I Corinthians 15:35-38 NKJV
But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain-perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
When you listen to what he is saying… I can see how he comes to those conclusions but I don’t think it was made to be this complicated; I think it was made to be relevant to all levels of complexity
Don’t force any idea like what you’re doing right now. Again learn, 练习，know my voice
Please help me understand. This story speaks of seed that falls into unsown land. Some withers, some lives weakly, and some grows many times stronger than the sown seeds. He emphasizes the fruit yield on the last set in contrast to sown seeds.
Are seeds people who have been cast out of society in various conditions of living? Some doomed while a remaining third might thrive more than expected?
I heard his story but I'm still unpacking it.
Or if we are to read this as ideas... Is the suggestion that "thinking outside the box" or "growing outside the sown dirt" is sometimes optimal?
The seed is the Word of God, the soil is the state of heart. Stony is stubborn and does not change - the word sprouts but dies because it wasn't properly planted. The birds taking from the ground are those that do not listen - they never gave the word a chance. The thorns are people that are open to all ideas - they cannot hold contradictions, they hold on to sin, so the sprouted plant dies.
@@DoubleOhSilver What is the representation of the seed that thrives outside of the sown soil? What lesson do we learn from the seeds that thrived many times more than the sown seeds?
I think having adding 1-2 biblical scholars in this series would be helpful.
Wait, so none of these guys are actually biblical scholars? That explains a lot. Which scholar would you like to see here?
@ I very much appreciate this whole series and the material JP is putting out. I actually don’t know every individual in the panel or they haven’t spoken up much so I don’t hear anyone drawing them back into the meaning of the text. From observation of the clips, philosophers and psychologists can read so much into the text that it goes beyond understanding or over the meaning of the text. Granted, I think this is the whole point of the series, but I think the discussion should be grounded and rooted in the meaning before it’s elaborated or being read into. Without tracing and stemming from what the text actually says, it can veer off way too much and the meaning gets lost. Again, the series is meant for that, but it would be helpful to start with what the text actually means then take off from there. I think New Testsment Bibical scholars like DA Carson, Andy Naselli, or Thomas Schreiner would be a great addition.
@@sjgx1448John MacArthur
There are three biblical scholars on the panel.
There are several already
Jesus's explanation seems perfectly sufficient to me. The seeds are "the word of the kingdom" Matthew 13:19.
Can someone name all of the people on the panel?
From left to right, those are Dennis Prager, Dr. Douglas Hedley, Dr. Stephen Blackwood, Jonathan Pageau, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Bishop Robert Barron, Gregg Hurwitz, Dr. James Orr and Dr. John Vervaeke.
Does anyone know what translation of the Bible Peterson is reading?
In this series they are using the the book called The Single Gospel by Neil Averittt
@@ImWestendYeti Thank you.
The future translation
here's why peterson saying communism is poison makes no sense.
the seeds (idea) in the parable were NOT the problem, it was the ground (people) they fell on.
communism IS a good idea, it's just that too many people are not "fertile" to accept and understand it.
that makes sense of the parable, while petersons explanation doesn't add up.
Isn't it interesting that the fourth person was good soil BEFORE he (or she) received the seed?
Soil is the earth 🌍 = our ❤
Seed = God’s word
Bird Satan 🦅
Your listening, understanding and applying determines how soft or hard your heart is towards God and His Word and also determines how FRUITFUL we are. Both Spiritually and physically
❤️
♥️
💔
🙏🙏🙏
The panel never got the parable. Reading the comments it seems the viewers never got it either. I suppose it's true that many are called but few are chosen
Bishop Barron has the answers, ask him !
Vervaeke is a godsend
I must say hopefully without offending that the interpretation of Jordan P seems elementary to the long doctrines of the Catholic Church. Been there done that centuries ago. Not new as much as I like his lectures.
👍
enough clips, post in full already
If you read the next verses, Jesus explained the meaning of it to the disciples.
The seed is the word of God..which invites us to believe in the knowledge of God rather than our ideas! belief is greater than ideas..
the soil is the heart..there are different conditions of every heart. Faith ..which is belief & becomes trust in God's ways. Ones belief is tried by fire..to be purified..& can come forth as gold!
As with all scripture, the challenge is to understand what the scripture means by what it says. What it means to me without knowing what it means, leads to mis-application. The sower is the believer, the seed is the gospel, the soil is the heart, the soil that produces good fruit is the heart that has been prepared by God. Believers are called to always be casting the seed. Preparing the heart is Gods work, we are the means by which God accomplishes His work. Jesus said all that the Father gives me will come and I will not lose even one. Many will make professions of knowing Christ, few will actually KNOW Christ. Thankfully, the harvest is not based on how perfectly we cast seed. That’s not to say we shouldn’t take seriously how we share the gospel. Jesus said, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. We celebrate, when He saves, disciple those who believe, and keep casting seed.
This is one of the few parables where Jesus tells what it means before he tells the parable. It's that simple. Go read the original and it's clear as day.
🙏✝️🙏💪
Read your Bible and read again. Not everything is understood but will be revealed in time.
Proper ideas or just Truth and Untruth?
😊
Blindness.
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, And shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.”
Romans 11:25-27 KJV
Paul definitely knows about blindness. 3:52
Stalin kept a copy of Machiavelli on his nightstand.
Ah me now.
👌
Matthew 13
New International Version
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
It is remarkable how nine seemingly leading voices of thought can so badly understand a parable when Jesus explains it if they would just care enough to read further in the text. It seems that they are not interested in faithful exegesis of the text and enjoy philosophizing just to hear their own rhetoric. The orthodox interpretation for this parable is quite simple: the seed is the Gospel and the soils are four conditions of people and their reception of the Gospel. In all the soils, the Gospel does not last (even though in certain cases there seems to be the appearance of doing so) except for one. The soil in which the Gospel takes root is evidenced when a yield of fruit is produced. This fruit has to do with following Christ, growing in holiness, the godly attributes of love, kindness, mercy, etc. Why not stick with Jesus’ own explanation? I guess in their minds, it doesn’t make for a good discussion.
This parable is to contrast the Rabbi's expected Messianic physical Kingdom of God with the actual kingdom of God which is not the kind of kingdom they're expecting . They wanted armies and an empire . Jesus is talking about believing in our hearts in Him. It's the same idea in the vision of the statue in Daniel. Man's kingdoms compared to God's.
Use this as a like to get NT Wright on future bible panels 🙋🏻♂️📖☦️
This parable seems inherently unfair. What choice do I have what kind of soil I am? If I have a choice then it seems like there's some kind of merit to salvation. Can that be right?
I am having a similar thought, and it’s making me feel a little bitter. But I still think we may be fundamentally missing some point about this.
To find the good soil:
Knock and the door shall be opened. Seek and you will find.
I.e. you have to put the effort in and have to listen to the Word.
@chrisdaniels3929 but i'm a heterosexual man, I love women.
why would I want to go to a heaven and worship a bunch of men ?
all the angels were men, jesus and god.... ALL MEN.
to me that's gay and DISGUSTING.
@chrisdaniels3929 listen half brain, the point is the "good" soil has it easy.
why is that so hard for your little brain to grasp ?
(REPENTANCE)
To turn away from your old ways and turn to God.
(GOOD GROUND)
A HUMBLE heart (Soft soil)
(GOOD SEED)
Receiving the holy spirit (SALVATION)
isn’t it too late to turn your life around at 22?
It's never too late to turn your life around. Check out the story of The Prodigal Son. I think it explains just this.
Nah honestly 22 is super young
Absolutely not. It is the perfect age to turn your life into a positive direction and relationship with Jesus.
It is never too late to learn new things
ehhh
Any of these people newmasons?
🙏🌀🌀🌀🌊🌀🌊🌀🌬️🌬️🌊🌀🌊🌀🌬️🌀🌬️🌬️🌪️🌪️🌪️🪐🪐🪐🪐🐦🔥🐦🔥🐦🔥🐦🔥🐦🔥☄️💎☄️💎☄️🦭🦭🌀🌊🦭🌊🦭🏞️🏜️⚡🐉🦕🌪️🌪️🌊🦭🌋🌋🌋🌋🏔️🐍🐉🦕🌑🎱☯️🕉️✡️⚛️
Its crazy how these people still dont understand the parables correctly
"...the seed comes...something that comes from above." I hate to be blasphemous, but that statement is rife with innuendos.
Blessings,
ABBA FATHER GOD created the simplest of fabrics (H²O,waters) to sustain ALL forms of life here on earth 🌎🌍🌏
🌱LIFE IS BUT A VAPOUR 🌹
The Bow is a river in the HOLY BIBLE 🎉 HABAKKUK 3:8-10 🙌 ALLELUIA 🙌 A-MEN' 🌿
The seed is the Word of God not ideas. Nice try.
evolution is bunk but sure you guys are smart and dont know that
I'm sorry ...what did I just listen to... the passage was not exegeted, but philosophisized. Jordan Peterson is brilliant but he's not a theologian the others on the panel should have hermeneutically applied scripture to the parable of the sower. God bless
I believe in a pantheon of Gods but the oldest and strongest is a golden dragon who spoke the first word and began a snowball effect of causality
Congratulations! You found the worst format for a UA-cam video.
I don't think this parable could be any simpler. The seed is the word of God that is heard and grows into faith or doesn't. Love this group but they fall into the hazard of overthinking.
You call your self god watcher? Bad job max pain
I feel like this is one of those conversations we're their talking about it so far beyond the point there adding to it missing the point. Because as many times as I've read this parable, I've never thought of it in some of those ways, and why would I.
All you guys copy cat, I copy only musk I’m in danger part
Jesus never married or fathered any children too.
(So the STORY goes).
no grave, no followers, no one knew he existed in israel
Whatever these guys are talking about is not Christianity. What are these talks supposed to be? Sounds like a bunch of intellectuals trying to sound like they know the Gospel.