One Small Request For Elden Ring
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- Опубліковано 30 січ 2022
- Hey folks! In today's video I discuss a wishlist item I have for Elden Ring.
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Many thanks to Matthewmatosis, whose "Dark Souls II Critique" inspired me to start making UA-cam videos. Can't believe it's been eight years. - Ігри
First Soulsbourne I played was DS1 and I fell in love with it due to the level design. Blew my mind as you've said brownbear. Never has any other Soulsbourne come even close to it in that regard and it felt like a gutpunch each time. The more "sequels" came out the more it felt DS1's design was a happy accident rather than a product of their design philosophy that I would get the joy of experiencing again.
teleportation from the get go
thats my problem
Totally feel the same!
After playing sekiro & ds3, I was left wondering if they fired their level design guy who made ds1?!?
@@anonymousfwefwefwefweff in ds3 there are shortcuts and connected levels and what not but you never use any of it because u can just warp.
whenever you opened a shortcut in ds1 you would be like wow I can get to that place faster now,in ds3 you open a shortcut and you just go back to the bonfire and say hey if I die I just take this shortcut instead.
Agree on everything besides the parry.
I agree that you can ignore parts and simply choose to not "abuse" overpowered mechanics, items, and such. But Parrying is such a core mechanic you shouldn't really ignore it and it should be more balanced.
Like the items you mentioned, you can always just not use them, but it's a much bigger ask to ignore a core ability of the player character just to not feel like you're abusing a bug.
Instead there could be some accessory or something that improved parry a lot, that way it's more of a clear line.
Plus it also makes it easier to not abuse, because it's one thing to decide ahead of time that you won't abuse a certain item by not equipping it and another to constantly know in the back of your mind that you can use Parry if you want.
It's like games with Ironman mode, in theory you could simply just never reload an old save, but if you don't have the option to completely strip it away then there can be moments where you think that the game wasn't playing fair, you got too unlucky, it was just a missclick, etc. and end up reloading even though you had decided that you wouldn't do that. But with Ironman enabled you simply won't be able to do it because it won't let you change your mind and it changes things a lot.
Interesting! I didn't parry on my first playthrough, so I ended up with a different impression of how core it is. Something I'll pay attention to on my next playthrough.
A lot of accidental things happen in game design. A botched idea or change in story line becomes an easter egg or bonus area. As a game studio matures these things do become less natural. Also, more ppl to pay means stricter deadlines. There's a decent chance that the more linear feel of more recent games has a lot to do with the studio's increasingly stringent timelines. Your requests are all perfectly valid though for sure. Sometimes developers lose sight of some of their games' original appeal. Just an alternate explanation.
Makes sense! Making levels interconnected also plays better with a lower-budget since you can get more mileage out existing content.
@@brownbeargaming I think half the reason the latter half of DS1 doesn't measure up to the former half is because of all the time they spent doing everything you cover in this video tbh.
I agree with you on the world design and secrets. A reason the first games were so good was that you could go in many directions at the same time (DS2 too, though that game is more linear). I love exploring the world and finding secrets, and think From should reward those who do so and even pay attention to details in the evironment to find some secrets. Some I think are a bit too hard to find or convoluted, in ways that makes a very low percentage of the players able to find it without hints or guides. I play offline, in part to avoid messages spoiling secrets, even if that mean I end up finding less of them. I have wondered if some secrets are almost meant to be found with help from messages. Many NPC quests are too convoluted in my opinion, and you can too easy lose the chain of requirements.
I always play blind first, then use guides to pick up what I missed, and that’s fine. I don’t expect to find everything or be able to complete every questline. If I had the time and inclination to play through a game multiple times, I would expect to find more and more each time around, but I don’t.
I loved how the early games didn’t let you teleport everywhere right away. Wandering around Blighttown and the joy of finding the exit was very special, except when I realized I was back where I started. DS1 in particular gave me a very different experience of the world by not being able to fast travel everywhere. None of the later games achieved that. This also have to be balanced out to avoid too much wandering back and forth, but that’s where the interconnected world and shortcuts really shone. When you later was able to fast travel to some locations, that felt alright.
Weird, I just had this discussion with someone else about DS secrets...
The change in design is due to a lot of market forces. Making linear levels is easier and most people dont miss DS1 interconnected levels compared to spectacle as you already mentioned.
But for secrets, this is a huge correction from the DLC entrances practices of DS1 and etc. IMO locking paid DLC including lore, bosses and weapons behind a hidden quest-line is way too far. But there are also a large set of people who just "want to experience everything in the game" (that they consider worth it), will read a guide and get annoyed if a boss fight is hidden/restricted. So FromSoft has to cater to people who think secrets hurt the game despite them spoiling the secret and caring only for the destination. I think DS3/Sekiro have a good balance of findable secrets but if I can argue with someone that Archdragon Peak is "obtuse" then they will continue to get backlash over this, even if the base game is enjoyable. The secret lovers are outnumbered by people who just wanna do everything they want.
And the number of people who complain about Catacombs because they didnt explore shows that FromSoft cant trust the player to make the best decision for themselves.
Lastly for parry/magic abuse I can't tell but some strategies like circle-strafing, parry, pyromancy, DS2 Lightning Spear or Sekiro stealth nerfs seem like an effort to "maintain/balance the difficulty". Seems like anything not intended above the original strength gets cut down, which sucks cause it could be another helping hand weaker players could use.
Super interesting point about locking lore behind paid DLC! I didn't think about it and your comment gives me a lot to think about.
Good secrets is one helluva tightrope. Ive been playing quite a bit of Noita and there are soo many interesting secrets there. But most if not all are unituitive and difficult to figure out on ones own. Leaving most of the discovery to be explained by youtube guides.
I think poe has a good philospgy when it comes to this. Have aspirational content (stuff that is difficult and timeconsuming for those that care) with a majority of normal, sort of, stumbling content.
And well, finding that balance I cant imagine to be simple. Interesting thoughtpiece! I dont have anything to really say about the worldbuilding, as outside of something like HollowKnight, I havnt experienced it.
This is so true. Just finished D3 yesterday and I can't stand how linear it is compared to D1, also Bonfires literally 10 steps from each other
I respect your opinion, even though I'm of the opposite opinion. In a new game, I want new Options. In Elden Ring, we have the Guard Counter mechanic, and that's something new to play with. It's arguably easier to time than parries, but then everyone will be doing it, so you have to learn new ways to Counter that mechanic. Going back to Dark Souls Poise, or Dark Souls Ripostes is a step-back. It's not so much that it's abusing an exploit as abusing the SAME exploit, for 10 years. This is an opportunity to not only explore a new map, and find all the new Fashion Souls. It's also a chance to find all of the new Exploits. All the mechanics that are arguably "Broken" in this game.
I'm excited about new options, too! I hope they offer the player plenty of freedom and don't worry too much if certain things seem overtuned.
I think convoluted secrets have their place in Soulsborne. It incentivises fans to communicate with each other and fosters a community feeling that no other game does.
To be fair Miyazaki has already claimed he doesn't like making sequels, and when he was told to make a third game in the franchise of course he found it bothersome, but Miyazaki being Miyazaki he did it anyways. I think it allowed him to improve in mechanics more than world details because he wanted Dark Souls to end in the first game. Also the reason being why Sekiro is so different from the other games in terms of interconnections in the world is because Miyazaki said he was trying to make a different type of experience; while also trying to keep it similar to what fans enjoy from his work. More story driven than secret stuff hidden everywhere.
I think giving players the ability to warp instantly was a mistake. It gives the devs carte blanche to half ass the level design and this leads to fromsofts newer games feeling more linear compared to the older games. Dark souls 1 didn't have warp so devs were encouraged to have a large inter-connected world filled with shortcuts that led to all sorts of areas. Now that you can teleport wherever, the levels feel more like video game levels rather than a living breathing world.
not really. ds1 felt more like a video game than bloodborne and ds3. theres more to that feeling than just level design. ds1s level design was more like metroidvania while bb and ds3 were more linear but the more matured art design and constant shortcuts to the same bonfire made it feel more realistic. ds1s area to area level design was top notch, but ds3 and bb beat it in in-area level design. each area in the new games felt better and more realistic to traverse in ds1 imo.
I also was a fan of not having fast travel from the start!
You will love the Legacy Dungeons 👍
I think the parry being so strong isnt about the developers giving its player base respect. i think it has more to do with them just not having the knowledge in house to balance things out. i see your point though but i just disagree with this one :) looking forward to see if elden ring fixes these things for you!
years late is better than never
I kinda see where you're coming from, but don't entirely agree with your points here. I don't think it's entirely fair to diagnose certain things being made easier or being rebalanced as them not "trusting the player" or thinking that people are "immature", though it's hard to get into a discussion about those things without getting into subjects like accessibility and player-friendliness without making people (especially souls series fans) very defensive. I do agree that some cool stuff was lost in the transition to their newer design philosophies, and I'm sure this wasn't your intention, but to me at least this all felt very reminiscent of the more gate-keepy side of the series fandom that seems to kinda... for a lack of a better word, almost resent the fans that only got into these games with the later entries? A lot of the phrasing here at least comes off as kinda dismissive of folks who disagree by implying them to be immature, or unworthy of trust.
Once again, I'm sure you had the best of intentions here and I can relate to the things you enjoyed about the older games, but I just personally disagree with most of your conclusions here.
Nah, no disrespect intended to newer fans of the series! I myself got into Souls with Dark Souls II.
Hollow knight is the closest feeling I've had when playing dark souls for the first time, with how interconnected the world is and how the devs just dont care if you miss a huge chunk of the story and content with carefully hidden secrets. A shame really that fromsoft's recent games stray away from that. I still really love their games though
Parrying should have the same animation speed and feel than dark souls 1, but their efectiveness should relly on dex , lets be honest, being a AD tank who just soaks damage and parry is kinda a crutch to branchin on form the playstyle. funny enough very few people actually bother to shield attacks in pvp anyways, is always paries and backstabs
Based.
Some very thought-provoking points! Though I do feel saying Sekiro is "just a straight line" is a bit unfair. A lot of it is, but there are also a lot of optional areas, and you almost always have multiple paths you can explore (Hirata estate, optional areas, optional bosses). Also, the areas in themselves are extremely complex (and beautiful) and you can take many different routes through them. For me, Sekiro was a beautiful game and truly unique within the souls series. Yes, you can criticize Sekiro for being a bit too straight, but I feel like it needs some nuance.
(Also, you can think about whether every game needs to be extremely non-linear. Final Fantasy 7 and 10 weren't actually much less linear than FF13, it just felt less linear, it was mostly the level design of straight tunnels in FF13 that made it feel like that, and the game opening up too late. In FF7, there's a very limited amount of (new) places you can go to at any stage in the game, especially the beginning. Books and movies are also (mostly) linear. Yes, we all want the interconnected world/level design of DS1 again, but maybe Sekiro was not where it necessarily needed to be repeated. Though that being said, of course it's completely understandable if you didn't enjoy Sekiro as much, I'm not saying you need to love it.)
Yeah
The only one of these I haven't given a good go is sekiro... I'm wondering if I should start this close to elden prob not eh
You really should. It's an incredible game.
the level design is nowhere near as good as ds1 but the core gameplay more than makes up for it
I feel like Elden Ring will have secrets up the wazoo considering that it's an open world game, and just the sheer size of it would allow for them to create a world that's like that.
That all said I do believe that Dark Souls 2 has the best exploration in the series. The world may not be interconnected like in 1, but the fact that you can take 4 seperate routes pretty much right from the start is something I really appreciate, and it looks like Elden Ring will do something similar.
I really see where you’re coming from here, and I agree that dark souls 1’s complexity made the game more engaging than some more recent titles, but the simple truth is that most people aren’t looking for this experience, and other more straightforward titles were easier to get into for new players. I think it is a terrible shame that none of the things you talk about are present in newer games, and I believe they should be available but as a side area, or as hidden items or paths that branch off of the straightforward path. If you explore, you can take the convoluted route, but the unadventurous player could keep in with their straightforward route. From what we’ve heard about elden ring, it sounds like this very well could be the case, excitingly.
TLDR broken mechanics or convoluted secrets should be available to players who put in the effort to search, but overall the main game should be somewhat straightforward to increase approachability
Hey Brownbear, just watched this video and I'd like to attest to "developer reaching a higher maturity than their players". I played Dark Souls after watching my little cousin play through the game. Opening cinematic had me engaged or rather interested and I only ever played the casual fighter and first person shooter. No Elder scrolls, no GTA, no Batttlefield, etc. We were in a location where we had satellite internet and playing first person shooter with a very high ping made playing FPS or my favorite online MMORPG unbearable (high ping). We had a data cap as well even with a VPN I had to wake up around 3am-4am because data was uncapped but ANYWAYS... I fell in love with Dark souls having spent 75+ hours on my first playthrough... I knew nothing and didn't research before hand but it was a great option for investing time and enjoyment. I bought Dark souls 3 a month earlier than most. Ordering Japanese Currency cards on a brand new PSN acc. setting my regional setting so I could access the appropriate marketplace. Reached new game+7 with a absolutely overpowered bleed build. When I moved I played Bloodborne and helped my friends play through the Old Hunters DLC so we could PVP with end game weapons. Looking forward to following your channel. Hopefully Elden ring can rekindle a long lost love for exploring and savoring a intimacy long lost with AAA titles.
It's called the Lindy effect and it's awful, ruins everything.
Your points are very valid for sure but the actual situation with DS3 are a good example of devs expects players to ignore broken mechanics, today Dark Souls 3 are full of cheesy glitch exploits and hackers, even a youtuber showed that with an Ultragreatsword you can wreckt players without moving, or people who just wanna parry all night all to oneshot you fast, players will not ignore those things because in the end most of everyone wants to win at all cost, why? Who knows but they want to, i actually find Elden Ring intriguing and i will surely play it but i don't expect a balancement on the pvp world because they prove that they dont give a fuck anymore since Dark Souls 3
I've been saying this to my brother for a while ds1 was charming and bloodborne was charming x2 they are both so similar hence why I predicted bloodborne would be my favorite game before I even played it. Ds3 lost the charm its just flashy views boring enemies unremarkable locations and a style that loses the silly cartoony nature of both dark souls and bloodborne. Elden ring seems to me like another ds1 with original ideas cool enemies and bosses with the freedom to go anywhere u want.
Yeah miyasaki (I can't spell his name) didn't really want to make ds3 and you can kinda tell cos it doesn't feel as inspired with the level design and difficult enemy spam (the run up to twin princes in particular)
Sounds like you're just excusing bad design as expecting maturity out of its audience. This is a pretty old debate and giving it a fancy new name doesn't really add anything to it.
Nah, I just like how the older games trusted players more.
sounds like you are making excuses for a game not even released yet to convince yourself your hype investment is good. This is a pretty old cycle that really only serves corporations
@@brownbeargaming Nothing you said has anything to do with trust. You didn't even make an argument otherwise.