The Presbyterian View: Predestination
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- Опубліковано 24 тра 2022
- This Tim Keller sermon convinced me to accept Predestination back in 2019:
• Does God Control Every...
Also Since Presbyterianism is Scottish, I always listened to this traditional Scottish music compilation when I first studied Presbyterian theology in 2019.
• Scotland Traditional M...
That mountain-structure thingy in the picture is what I was building in my world while listening to resources on Predestination and listening to Scottish music back then.
Your videos are such a redeeming use of my time on youtube. Don't stop making them.
I second this
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predestination is maybe my biggest problem with calvinism.
I'm a Baptist and some of the things you've said about Baptists and assurance can tend to be true. I can't see baptismal efficacy in the Bible, and I did struggle with assurance for several years, even after baptism, based on things like works and sincerity of faith. What brought me out of the doubt was an understanding that if I simply placed my faith in Christ's righteousness, sacrifice, and power over sin and death, the Bible said He saved me. I can look back on a prayer I prayed just like you can look back on baptism and be reassured of salvation, but I think it's clear that it's not the prayer, or the baptism, that saved me. And people can be saved without "praying the prayer" just like they can (like the thief on the cross) without baptism.
Your explanation of the Presbyterian worldview is immensely helpful. I look forward to watching more.
I belive that the spirt babtism, which us needed is utterly connected to the water baptism. So much that it is a sign and a thing signified type of relationship
The water baptism daose NOT save however if so.ome believes but regects baptism the sign and thing signified are so closely linked that they are basically rejecting spirt baptism. However about the thief om the cross God can send the spirt baptism in the case that water baptism is available. Babtism is the entrance into God's kingdom such as circumcision was in the old testament it is the marking of God's chosen
That’s awesome bro
I’ve always looked at it this way - do I believe in predestination or free will? YES!!
Wait, can I just ask, do some Presbyterians not believe in predestination? Or do all Presbyterians believe in predestination?
@@tuckergDaPizza Im a presbyterian and go to a EPC, but I dont really think the idea of Calvanism sounds good, im kinda confused. My church has never talked about any of these ideas in the 14 years ive gone there.
Very insightful. While I don't personally believe in predesination in the same way as you do, I recognise that it is a complex topic and I do believe there are elements of truth to it. Most importantly it is one of those things I could learn in heaven that I was totally wrong about and not be disappointed lol. It wasn't explicitly explained in scripture so whatever is the truth about it I trust it is for the best.
Exactly, I don't know why people are so harsh against each other on this topic
Yeah it shouldn't greatly impact your Christian life
one saying along these lines I've liked is: pray like everything depends on God, work like everything depends on you.
Our good works are because we are so thankful to God for salvation. You don’t want to have any delusions that you are trying to earn salvation or you’re in danger of thinking Jesus’s sacrifice wasn’t enough.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I don’t think Calvinism is biblical. God is all powerful, yet he allows us free will to freely choose Him over sin. True love must be freely given. You do need to choose to repent and trust in Jesus alone to be born again. Then you will want to do the will of God or good works.
I think with Predestination being openly condemned with the Gnostic heresy as mentioned in Saint Irenaeus's Against Heresies is evidence enough to what the early church though of Predestination, nothing more than a part of the Gnostic heresy which included Double Predestination as one of its key dogmas. The reason Saint Augustine later recanted Predestination later on in his writings was because he originally believed in Predestination from when he was a Gnostic and later rejected it as he was growing into becoming a better Christian. So when Calvin affirmed Predestination from Augustine, he affirmed the heresy believed by Augustine when he was a Gnostic. So indirectly Calvin is affirming parts of Gnosticism. It also turned out that historically the Orthoodox East considered Calvin's doctrines to be so heretical that they would not receive Calvinists except by baptism and openly condemned John Calvin's teachings as heresy at the council of Jerusalem even though Calvin was never Orthodox.
God already knew everything his creation would do before he ever created anything, he can't hide his own Easter eggs or throw a surprise party for himself because that would contradict his very nature.
The only way to escape from predestination and election is to reduce God to some sort of lesser deity that's just figuring things out as he goes or creating things and "looking into the future" to find out what his own creation is going to do, and that God is neither all powerful or all knowing.
@fakesummer3942 Did God the Father eternally predestined God the Son or the Holy Spirit? Does God not have 3 wills being one God in 3 Divine Persons? If God the Father really did predestine people, then sin doesn't exist because to sin as written in the Bible in the original Greek is Amartia which means to miss the mark. No one would have missed the mark because they would do exactly as they were predestined to do and therefore no actual sin to save anyone from. Sin can therefore only exist where total depravity does not exist and people have the freedom to choose between good and evil. God being perfectly good also doesn't make anything inherently evil and therefore doesn't make things in order that they were meant to do evil that they be punished for it later as such would indicate God is the author of sin which is heresy. The key characteristic of God is also not justice but love and because God is love and love can only exist between persons who are free agents, God is Trinity and His relationship with His creatures is one of freedom with real love and not some mere legal transaction or what can more accurately be described as playing with dolls.
@@siegeheavenly3601 The father, son and holy spirit have the same will and aren't in conflict with each other.
...and the fact still stands, if God truly is all powerful and all knowing (Not just kind of powerful and kind of knowing.) your "free will" is nowhere near as free as you believe it is, just have a bit of common sense and think about it for more than 5 seconds and you'll understand what it implies.
@@siegeheavenly3601God doesn’t make anything inherently evil? You’re mistaken
We are all children of God.
Do you see the amount of murderers and savages on this planet?
We need the evil.
We need the good.
There is no light without dark.
@@fakesummer3942that's the only way Calvinist predestination can be explained imo - there's free will of an individual, God simply knows the choices that individual would ultimately make. Which would make the differences between various denominations' teachings a matter of focus between one's free will vs God's omniscience, neither contradicting each other.
If it is predestined who is going to be saved by God and it is unconditional then what is the point of trying to redeem yourself if you do not have control over your redemption in Gods eyes?
that would mean that (say you do that) you wouldn't be predestined to be saved.
@dannyzaze9126 yeah I messaged that quite a long time ago that does make more sense to me now
I have looked into calvenistic beleif in the past, but the only thing i could never understand was this. If God is in complete control of who will be saved, and he has said he desires that all turn to him, why not simply make everyone turn to him? These two things seem in conflict for me unless a person is given the ability to choose by God. And also Love is a choice, and since it is what God wants, it by definition cannot be forced. This is how i see it. God desires that everyone will be saved, and he makes it possible for all to choose him, but the choice is still ultimately up to the person, otherwise there is no love.
completely agree, God simply cannot be an all loving being if he has just decided who goes to Heaven or Hell without any free choice to turn to him.
@@iamjohnfarlow I think calvinists believe that if we were given a free will choice, then no one would choose Christ because everyone is too corrupted in their own sin to choose him. As you can tell by my username, I might be biased about this.
@@jtebiblestudy maybe that is their position but that would be where I disagree. People can and DO choose Christ of their own will.
@@jhoughjr1 I did. I came around last year (about June) of my own choice, and have since been cured of my depression. Sure, God was putting many hints in my path, but I must admit that I was stubborn about it for a long time. Then when I finally made the choice, with itty bitty tiny baby steps, my life got continuously better and better, and now over 365 days later, I have never felt so blessed! My journey through The Bible revitalizes me every day! Jesus guides me through daily temptation and sin, and He has already purchased my salvation, so I just put all my faith in Him, and life is amazing every moment.
Have faith. Take care!
But why the predestination at all ? How is it theologically better than just assuming that we have free will to choose between heaven or hell ?
While it may be a wholesome thought an omnipresent and Omnipotent God can’t co-exist with man’s free will.
Yeah, but Jesus and Paul said predestination exists. The Bible also says there is free will. In my opinion God decides if we'll be created knowing everything we will choose. He decides using the result of our actions as a whole. Maybe our actions would be evil and we will be condemned, but He can turn these bad decisions into good things so He decides to create us anyway.
Because knowing that you are chosen and that God will cause whatever it takes to get you back in line, no matter how much pain it may cause, will help keep you in the faith. When I am far from God and I am in sin my dad will remind me that if I continue on that path I am going to get yanked back and it probably won't be pleasant.
@@Lycidas777 the hell he can't. he is omnipotent and omniscient. He can absolutely co exist with our free will and it was his intention to do so or we would be like the angels, without will.
@@jhoughjr1 How so? Also if Angels don’t have will then how did Satan rebel?
I liked the Bach information!
I'm a Christian and have been raised that way in my family, but I don't fully understand the predetermination idea. I believe it from what I understand of it, but the part I'm confused on is this: Can I accept god into my heart and does that mean I am saved? Because if he predetermines who is saved then how do I know if I am or not? This has been a thought I've been praying about for a while, and I'd love any wisdom you can give as well.
(It seems you are saying that baptism is the sign of being saved and being a part of the elect, but you've also said baptism doesn't mean you are saved.)
If God predetermines who is saved, than if you accept God into your heart, you are saved. The two are independent. Those who accept God into their heart are saved, and those who do not accept God into their heart are not saved. Predestination merely means that those who accept and those who do not are chosen by God. You are saved. God bless.
@@bennybennybenny123 Thank you for clearing this up, this has been my understanding, but hearing another christian repeat it is an answer to prayer. God bless!
@Benjamin Siler I think this hints at why people get generally confused by predestination. If the Calvinist belief of how an individual is saved is exactly what you described, then it is pretty much the same as how myself, and most other non-Calvinist Christians grew up learning about salvation. The difference comes in when you realize that the predest vs non-predest argument is about how God determines who is saved and not about how we as humans ensure that we are saved, and I think these two things end up getting conflated and confusing the whole debate. Personally, I am not sure it is necessary that we fully understand the metaphysical mechanisms by which God saves, only that he does given that you give yourself to Christ. It's not as though our finite human minds are capable of understanding even a small fraction of God's being. It just ends up as another point that divides us
I feel like this whole view is where the “I’m better than you” feeling comes from!
I'd say Calvin's doctrine is pretty radical because he denies free will. This is not the only possible view on predestination, perhaps you would find other ideas more compelling.
Predestination is a very controversial topic
I think people can choose to follow Jesus, but I do believe ultimately that Jesus is the one who saves you and is the reason God “forgets” your sins, so he is ultimately deciding.
Forgives, not forgets
Jesus has already decided to save everyone, he did so 2024 years ago, you have the choice to accept that salvation or not.
It’s both of your choices, but Jesus already chose.
@@PigOfGreed2024 years ago would be the birth of Christ, not his atonement on the cross…
@@isaacmaue-tg7kl yes yes I know he died like 1991 years ago, you got what I meant though
@@PigOfGreed so are you saying that Jesus died for people in Hell?
Those FPS 💀
This is one of the big reasons I'd never be a presbyterian. It was revealed that only some of us will be saved. If that happens, there are two possible reasons. The first one is because God can't do that. The second is because God doesn't want to do that. We both agree on the second one, but Calvin does not have a good explanation about it.
In my opinion, the whole point on salvation is that we end up loving God by our own free will (with the necessary help of His Grace, and we can only start believing after we recieve His Grace).
So, from my point of view, God predestines us by creating only those who will have a good impact in the world, even if these things come from our wrongdoing and we end up being condemned.
Interesting. If you are not Presbyterian, what denomination are you?
I can't say that I agree. God clearly doesn't exclusively save "those who will have a good impact in the world," since many are saved on their death beds. Many are saved and are completely unknown or secluded from society. God does not save us on the condition of anything we do or will do. That would be works salvation. That would mean we have an ounce of righteousness among ourselves, which clearly isn't true. Also by this definition babies would not be saved since they have NO impact on the world apart from their parents. In some cases, not even that.
I don't agree with the idea of the elect, but I had a revelation recently about Jesus dying on the cross and realized that I believed that since not everyone is saved, Jesus was dying for the right to enter into relationships with humans as God, not just to pay for all sins immediately. That was the same as what you said about salvation, so I feel encouraged about my ability to interpret the Gospel!
That lines up with my personal experience. That being, faith is not some instantaneous event that forever shifts the course of one's life and all of their beliefs in a moment. Faith needs to be constantly renewed. It needs to grow, to be cultivated like a seed. It's like a marriage, a commitment.
8:00 My dad seems to think that when you said sin affects gravity that you meant mankind's sin changed gravity somehow
I like this format, but I think the music is a bit too loud. Maybe decrease the volume by 30%.
Supralapsarianism makes more logical sense to me. Especially in light of Romans 9 and other verses that clearly show God chose the elect before the creation.
Calvinists seem to have difficulty explaining predestination. Ask 10 Calvinists, you get 10 different answers.
How do I join your minecraft server?
it's a singleplayer survival world
I'm opening it up to the public this summer
You completely gloss over in what possible sense could God love the unelect, you just state that the majority position is that God does love them in some sense, but in what possible world does being created by a being who fully intends to punish you for eternity and knows that this will in fact happen, but lets you wonder whether or not you have a shot at eternal life for 1-100 or so years on earth first, count as love?
I was wondering the same thing... I know it's a complex theological topic but still at the end of the day they're still saying what they're saying and I would also like more elaboration on this
Nothing in the Bible suggests that your going to suffer an eternity of damnation; I believe that was what was in store for Satan. My interpretation was that when you die and you havent been saved that means you wont go to heaven when you die or be ressurected when Christ comes again. Why is it so hard to believe that some people are evil and were put on earth to teach a lesson, or were intregal parts of saving someone else? Maybe some people wouldnt find God unless something really bad happens to them, (like me, God really smacked thd shit out of me-and I needed it) and for that to happen, you need bad people, which the Lord lovingly created for purpose and also lovingly dispose of them when they are done. If youre asking this kinds of qurstions and you pray to the Lord and youve been born again through, it's because the Lord chose you and you are elect. Youre saved my friend, trust in the Lord. You wouldnt have come to the Lord or ask such important questions other wise, it is the Holy Spirit working in you. Take care and God bless friend, just my two cents, trust in what the Holy Spirit moves in you and your own faith.
8:08 Doggie heaven exists, St. Francis is Gigachad.
Unconditional elects would mean that there are literal NPC's out there. Why would Yahweh send His only begotten to purchase all sin for only certain people? That doesn't sound like a Father that loves all his children to me, but hey, to each their own. I believe that all men are created equal, and that because I have the choice to be born again, that would also be true of all other men. I do believe in Total Depravity, but I do not believe that my Father would create certain children and condemn them to hell before giving them a chance to exercise their free will.
Tfw the Reformers had to throw out the dueterocanon because it explicitly denounces their beliefs (Sirach chs 15 and 16)
I don’t think I believe in Calvinism, at least not yet, but the words predestined and chosen are definitely in my nkjv translation, I believe in Romans? If I went by tulip, I would be a one or two point calvinist( me being almost fully ignorant of anything beyond the tulip acronym)
9:00 R. C. Sproul
well i guess i'm not a calvinist if 'U' is what true calvinists believe. do i believe in predestination? yes. but more in the sense you mentioned wherein it is hand-in-hand with our free will to choose or deny, but since god is omniscient and therefore knows all past/present/future, he already knows the choice i'm going to make..... but the choice is still mine. this was never an issue for me to understand like i know it is for some christians who don't believe or just dislike the idea of predestination. to me, it wasn't difficult.
if my dad offers me a hundred dollars just because, he already knows i won't turn him down (lol bank of dad) but it was still a choice offered and not forced upon me. it really is that simple to me.
so....not a calvinist then?
I have some probelems with this?
1 If Jesus didn't die for individual sins, why did he say what was said in John 3:16?
2 (which overlaps with number 1) How does this fit in with sent to people being sent to Hell, or -- you know-- "perishing?"
3 Why does Animal suffering exist if Jesus "redeemed all creation" by dying for the cosmic effects of sin?
I feel like you explained this in the video but your logic was pretty complicated, so I couldn't catch? Pls, RZ, could you actually answer my question, unlike other youtubers that simply ignore?
I dont think hes ignoring you, this is just an old video xD
I can provide you with some answers.
1. Whoever believes in Him will be saved. No contradiction here.
2. People deserve punishment because of their sin. Hell is the method God uses to punish them. Once again, I can't see a contradiction.
3. Jesus redeemed all creation spiritually, but physical suffering still exists because of sin. This is for the same reason that everybody is not automatically saved and perfected, but rather has to follow God and be sanctified over time. The sin lives within us (our flesh).
Hope that helped. I mightve misunderstood your first two question, which is why I don't see the issues. If you can provide more detail I'd be happy to respond to that
How about "pre-envisioned?" God gives us a choice, but sees the whole picture, including the end of His Creation.
Transformation is definitely a thing. It happened to me.
My issue with the infralapsarianism vs supralapsarianism positions is that arguably the latter is the only way that makes sense when we see God as an all good all powerful being. If God is all powerful and has the power to save the ones that aren’t predestined to salvation, why doesn’t he just do so?
You say that you essential believe that God didn‘t just created people for the sole purpose of throwing them in Hell. But you don‘t really explain how this works with this view of predestination.
If God chooses some then he also does not choose others. That means he created them knowing full well that he will not choose them. Therefore it would mean he created them to be thrown in Hell. Also he would punish them for not believing in Christ but he essential decided if they would or not.
He would punish them for a choice he made
I believe in Jesus btw. just curious how calvinism explains this
This has always been a major issue I’ve seen with Calvinism. As another commenter wrote, double predestination is the logical conclusion of predestination, and the logical conclusion of that along with other Calvinistic presuppositions is that God is the author of evil.
I don’t think Calvinism is biblical. God is all powerful, yet he allows us free will to freely choose Him over sin. True love must be freely given. You do need to choose to repent and trust in Jesus alone to be born again. Then you will want to do the will of God or good works. Part of that will is to share the Gospel with everyone. God knocks even on the door of those who will not be saved so they are without excuse. There would be no point in disciples talking to the lost if it wasn’t to give them a chance. Just because God knows the outcome doesn’t mean he made our choices.
The best coarse of action in any case would be to trust God and not in our own understanding though.
11:49 "salvation is more of an objective reality"
If it's more than another but not completely, then it doesn't sound very objective to me.
Doesn't predestination remove free will?
Not entirely. First it’s important to understand that true free will only exists for god because he is omnipresent. Humans do not have the ability to chose whatever we want, our choices are always effected by something within our lives physically and mentally. Humans still have will and we can still chose. Predestination means that you can’t chose to be saved only god can save and nothing you do will change his decision, at least in Calvinism. It’s important to understand that the Calvinist view is of unconditional election meaning while god knows everything you will ever do, it’s not what you do that makes him elect you for salvation before birth. Everything outside of our salvation is something we can choose so it doesn’t remove will. Hope this helps, predestination and Calvinism is a deep rabbit hole and I have only scratched the surface.
Ur the first person I’ve ever heard think ppl without the belief of salvation with baptism look to their good works, the gospel is grace through faith with repentance and this way you will know you are saved. It’s not a complicated science and baptists don’t believe in works based salvation, Bible says our works are filthy rags. I believe when it says we need works with faith it’s referring to our obedience and choice to follow cause even the devil “believes”
10:30 some Baptists...
WIth Supralapsarianism being a thing, I'd rather just be a Gnostic at that point and believe the malefic Demiurgic story.
The logical conclusion of predestination is double predestination, which is heretical.
As a Catholic, I usually enjoy all your video, but honestly this one makes little to no sense to me... I honestly tried to follow all arguments with open mind, but the idea of no free will and predestination to hell fire is just unreconsilable with reason to me.
Unless Hell isn't quite what you think it is.
@@gilgamesh2832 What is hell in your view? Please explain. I’m really curious.
I think there is too much focus on baptism by water
True baptism is of the Holy Spirit, which fills you and gives you the strength to overcome sin
As protestants we only really have two rituals, and those are baptism and the Lord's supper. If you reject baptism, then you don't even get the second. I agree that baptism of the Holy Ghost is important, but I don't think you are aware of what you are doing when you so casually toss aside baptism in water.
All 3 are different things we can experience as Christians, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit - although everyone is able to experience it - isn't something a lot of people experience, even among Pentecostal churches. However, everybody can for sure experience both baptism and the Lord's supper, and both are also of great spiritual significance as well. A Christian is expected to be baptized, but meanwhile for a Christian it is only hoped that they will experience the baptism of the Holy Ghost, but they may never.
There's a big difference, and it's important not to casually throw away baptism especially because of the difference.
@@MisterShnig Jesus never baptizes any of his disciples with water
If it was important he would have
@@TocnaelStarcraft You are gravely mistaken.
Jesus himself thought baptism in water was so important that he himself insisted on being baptized in the water by John the Baptist. If Jesus thought baptism in water was insignificant he would never have done so.
Baptism in water signifies repentance and the promise to follow God. If you do not get baptized, even though you have the opportunity, then whether or not you really have decided to repent and wish to be reborn, and whether you will publicly acknowledge such, should be called into question.
It is one of the only 2 rituals we follow as Biblical Christians (the Lord's Supper being the 2nd), and you cannot participate in the latter without the former. And the Lord's supper is a really big deal. To believe any differently is to either simply not understand its significance properly, or to be willfully ignorant and stubborn, as it is a moment we take to celebrate, reflect and meditate on what Jesus has done for us on the cross.
DO not take our rituals lightly.
@@MisterShnig guy on the cross didn't do either
@@MisterShnig So is the Thief of the Cross in Hell or Heaven?
If limited atonement is true why jesus died the god take only elect people to in his kingdom why god do these kind of. Things
Yeah pre-determination make absolutely no sense.
Yk, coming from a catholic that is transitioning to a protestant leaning, I really admire and respect the way you actively seek the unbiased and just flat out truth when it comes to glorifying God and his word. I truly feel when I hear your argument on such a controversial topic, you sound, for lack of a better word, humane. You sound like your heart genuinely comes from a well intended place, and that definitely makes your argument more persuasive. All in all I have to say calvinism makes sense if you really try to understand it, and of course if you just abide by the traditional view of it and not this modern view of it. But I feel it also requires a bit if a more mature faith to fully understand and accept such a complex idea. Nonetheless, thank you for taking the time and effort to educate your brothers and sisters in Christ. 🤍