When Shibiri said" Burn the Erdtree to the Ground . So Chaos Would Arise." I never felt so connected to a character. as a metal head and a deep thinker this is my calling
@@guillermolopez1377 The entire Flame of Frenzy questline, and especially Shabriri remind me of Lateralus by Tool. Things like embracing chaos and burning things down to become one is parallel to embracing the random and riding the spiral. Something a lot of Tarnished must feel is very comforting since their guidance and grace has been taken away from them, and feel their order in life has been lost. More so that even. Their order in life dictated that they must be lost, and they're probably are willing to cling to any little order or guidance that calls to them.
100 percent intellectually understood the flame of frenzy, now I have FELT it. Truly exceptional take on this lore, I know it was a risk but I greatly enjoyed that dip into despair to really grasp the philosophy at my core. Bravo.
_"Burn the Erdtree..._ _To the ground..._ _And incinerate all that divides and distinguishes!_ _Aaahhhh...May chaos take the world!_ *MAY. CHAOS. TAKE. THE WORLD!!!!!"*
The simple "Never mind, I want to suffer too" from Alyosha hits me deeply, Ivan hadn't explained his point and yet he was beginning to understand, and once you begin to understand you don't wanna stop
This is such a unique way to present the lore of the frenzied flame Honestly, this did A LOT in helping me to understand the philosophy behind it all. I knew the what the text was saying, but i never understood how you could come to those conclusions. This video helped me understand how someone could see life as a mistake.
This is pretty much how i felt when i was depressed, i viewed my existance as pure suffering. As such when i came upon the flame of frenzy i immediately knew what it was about
When considering the Brothers Karamozov it is important to remember that Dostoyevsky was a believer/had faith, but he doesn't strawman the opposing view. It is just something to keep in mind.
Which is what also makes crime and punishment also such an amazing book, the different perspectives of what's right or wrong and justice is very thought provoking. The final conclusion of Brothers Karamazov that I got was that religion isn't important on itself, nor for believer or for an atheist. Since the ultimate goal of religion has already taken place in history, to serve as a foundation to bring order and create a moral compass for society.
yes, brothers karamazov is perhaps the greatest illustration in artistic history of the pain and suffering of having actual, genuine faith - which requires looking into the deepest depths of horror and defiantly refusing to blink
@@Dragonswiftx Like good plot development is built on overcoming pain, and good strategy on the respect of one's enemies; so too is goood debate built on the belief of the integrity and sincerity of the side that one opposes. For even if they are not rational, there is a fundamental and humanistic metric to emotion; like many pieces of evidence become a case in court, enough pain added together becomes a reason and motivation in and of itself - and damn where it comes from or why. The subjectivity of pain is the strength of the devil. A splinter and a bullet can cause equal pain in two different people, and both will scream. Was the rage of the man at the injury of his dog equal to the rage of the mother at the death of her son? And the poor, dumb dog; were it able to speak, would it have also asked for the child who wronged it to die? I think it would have.
This is a great take on the Flame of Frenzy, its not about its ingame lore reasons, its the conception and idea behind it, and i think this is the best take you could have made to have it understandable for everyone who listens.
I love that you read Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov has a soft spot in my heart. I would like to note that the scene about the horse being whipped on the eyes and beaten to death also appears in another Dostoevsky novel, "Crime and Punishment" and it's something the author watched as a boy. I can only imagine how this young boy must have felt watching this defenseless animal needlessly suffering and how that impacted him as a man.
You've started down this path -- I beg that you continue so that many more can understand the dark truths that lie within the soulsbourne series. These games, and many others, hold the key to encouraging the philosophically uninterested to glimpse beyond the curtain. Even if only for a moment. Thank you
YES. THIS THIS THIS. They're absolutely gateways for so many different philosophies. Existentialism, Entropy, Nihilism, Death and Rebirth, Duality of Existence, Free Will vs Determinism, The Concept of Time, Deism. There's so much there in each of the games. More lore youtubers need to do this and look outside of the text of the game to gain a more round understanding of their concepts. Its why videos like this one and Jacob Geller's Dark Souls 3 Is Thinking of Ending Things are some of my favorites.
@@ATC43 I think one of the problem with trying to tie outside philosophies onto the game is, it is very possible that one are just projecting it onto the work regardless if it's actually there or not. One unfortunate example is pretty much anyone who tries to attribute their preferred philosophy and/or values onto Tolkien's works, claiming that his works absolutely have allegories pertaining to [insert whatever here]. I am not saying this to forbid nor dismiss this process as just "reading too much into it" since even I find most videos like the one Rata made here to be very enjoyable and insightful, I guess I'm just saying this to give a reason why not many people want to risk sounding pretentious.
@@shira_yone That's a fair point. Though I also think it's important to consider that, although authors may not specifically intend to depict some religious or moral philosophy, they often still do. Particularly in the west with Judeo-Christian beliefs and ideas. When you start to look for it and break it down there are tons of parallels between all kinds of stories and philosophies. Most stories are just repackaging some ideas that have already been iterated on countless times. And I don't think that's a bad thing by any means. Point is I don't think it's unfair or wrong to seek out parallels between these things. I don't necessarily believe that projecting your beliefs onto some work is wrong. I definitely think it can be poorly thought out and not be a good projection or connection. But there is nothing wrong with finding unintentional parallels in any work as long as the parallel makes sense. lol. Hopefully what i'm saying makes sense. Haha. I don't even know if i'm actually making a good point or addressing anything. More of just a thought dump.
@@ryanhopkins5239 audience having interpretations of their own and someone proclaiming that the author of the art having the same interpretation as them are 2 different things. Other than that, yes that may be so. All I'm saying is just be careful not to cross the line and became the latter (like that really dumb article claiming Elden Ring was about the pandemic). What you said isn't exactly relevant to what I was saying, no offense.
The Flame of Frenzy represents a type of nihilism born from despair and that despair no longer being contained as it consumes everything in its miserable howling , rejecting life itself. The dark side of the color yellow is often associated with madness, the book the King in Yellow being a prime example of this. I've felt this nihilistic despair and struggle with it still from time to time but the counter to this belief is to hold life and its potential for something better to a greater value than the suffering that exists and that's really difficult but when you finally break from that cycle you have a clarity of just how beautiful this world truly is and gain a greater appreciation for it. It truly is madness, it locks you in a mental cycle that narrows your thinking from all potential and possibilities so you only see destruction as the only possible answer. Funny enough the Castlevania anime posits a similar quandary and has a character counter by saying " Say you get what you want and kill all the people in the world. You end human cruelty yes but you end human kindness too. No more jokes, no more surprises." But then he goes on to ask the other character with this mindset why not teach others to try and make that suffering a little less by your own hands(paraphrasing but that's the gist of it). It frames the mindset of yellow nihilism as one of extreme deprivation but asks the person locked in it to use that unique perspective to help make less suffering in the world and in turn less suffering for themselves. This way you are channelling that pain, the agony of those that have suffered and continues to suffer in to something positive, to increase life's potential for something better and in a way avenge that suffering. This was long but this video really got me thinking.
Sadly, I really don't get any comfort from being in the same boat with all of you. Too many scum keep shooting the floor. Not enough men want them thrown overboard.
There is a fault with that, what if they have tried numerous times and seen others fail and suffer. You cannot talk a terrorist out of killing, a general from slaughtering civilians, a murder from killing, a company from polluting for money, and so on. Like is both beautiful and cruel, the beauty cannot overwhelm the pain because those in pain cannot see the beauty, even if they can it is mundane compared to the quantity of cruelty they face. Any good you do to erase suffering can be undone in an instant, it has happened and will continue to happen, because it is nature. And I say that as someone who isn't a nihilist
@@latel4544 You're missing the point of what I said entirely. The goal is the effort put in not necessarily the end itself as there will always be suffering. I said nothing about ending it as that's not possible. You focus on what you can do and you keep trying. Your essentially making an argument for inaction which is exactly how that nihilistic despair I described traps you. "Since life has no intrinsic meaning the collective suffering of life outweighs anything good life has to offer so it would be better if we all just disappeared" is what the Flame of Frenzy represents in relation to us. My point is that to overcome that lie you need to be able to see the value of life beyond just the suffering and do what's within your power to make less suffering and in turn make your own suffering less. This can be done in a myriad of ways and when you realize that despite all of the terrible things in life good can happen and life contains that potential for better and as long as that potential exists life isn't just suffering.
I don't think it's about "rejecting life itself" more like rejecting individual life and making all life one. Hyetta's particular dialogue is "melt it all away, until all is one again." I think it's important that she doesn't just leave it on "melt it all away"
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi It's a mixture of both, in the themes of elden ring you make it one again because that is how life was prior to the mistake, if there is no individual there can be no suffering no thought. But that conclusion philosophically is gathered from "all life suffers and to end it all life must end. As that is better than the suffering life causes" I'm speaking of both the Frenzied Flame and the literature. As that sentiment has been used a lot in recent years for antagonists but usually misunderstood
What a fantastic name for a lore channel! For those of you who don’t know Ratatoskr carries information to and from the gods up and down Yggdrasil (the world tree that holds up all the worlds in Norse lore)
@@radagast7200 I'm surprised that some people are still clicking on the fact Elden Ring has a lot of Norse influence. We've got a giant World Tree, Gods battling each other as the end of the world approaches, the mortal ream at the mid of the tree, the dead at the roots of the tree (Hel), multiple layers of reality/realms, a _literal_ valkyrie who'll kick your ass seven ways 'till Sunday... And that's not even going into the fact the Elden Ring itself resembles the Triquetra or Radagon's cross hatch symbol is basically just the Web of Wyrd (ie. The symbol of Fate).
@@conspiracypanda1200 Torrent reminds me of Thor's goat steeds. Also the smith's anvil bears a resemblance to Mjolnir. I thought Rani was supposed to represent Hel though. After all she has a wolf brother who is fated to help slay the God of War. She also seems pretty linked with death and has a splt face kind of. I guess that would make her first victim a sort of Baldur (even though it was loki in the myths) which makes Marikas freak out and attempt to conquer death even more on point. Also, Rani spent alot of time in those underground eternal cities... Helhiem?
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus I didn't say Ranni was a wolf. Her 'brother' Blaidd is is. My implication was that Ranni was suppose to be Hel, whose brothers were Fenrir (a giant wolf who was fated to kill Thor, the God of War), and a giant snake named Jormungandr (destined to kill Odin). The three were children of Loki, who murdered (sort of) Freya's favorite son, Baldur, leading Freya (Merica in this theory) to become enraged and try to bring him back. Edit... Loki was responsible for the death of Baldur, not his children. Sorry if that was unclear.
It’s kind of crazy how often video games build an entirely new world, but then ask the exact same questions in our world. I remember playing Witcher 3 and thinking about the interpretation of the bloody Baron and his family, for example. A Christian might feel sympathy for the Baron, being cuckolded while away at war and providing for his family. Not to mention his wife’s abortion and her apparent success in turning his daughter against him despite her own flaws. A secular person, OTOH, will more likely see the Baron as a monster and hate him. Seeing the complete disarray that is the world of Elden Ring, it can be totally understandable that one would even prefer the nihilistic route that the frenzied flame represents. After all, you look at the cities and towns in the Lands Between (like Leyndell, and the smaller towns like the Windmill village, Sellia, Village of the Albinaurics, etc) and see them completely depopulated and destroyed beyond a few enemies mindlessly programmed to attack you. What’s even here to preserve? Liurnia is flooded, and Caelid is engulfed in scarlet rot and surrounded by walls of fire to keep it out of Limgrave. Even the eternal cities are ruined.
I don't get the dichotomy of Christian and secular. You can justify the wife and the husband in both worldviews. The wife did the cheating and turned the daughter against her father. That's very easy to feel sympathy for him in a secular worldview.
From what I gather, the Frenzied Flame is neither good nor evil... it's something different. It's melancholy, anguish, and despair incarnate. Of all the places it manifests at, it manifests where folk have suffered the most, like the merchants who've been persecuted and genocided because of the plague that cursed their people, or the Erdtree soldiers displaced all over Mount Gelmir who faced great losses during Morgott's crusade against Volcano Manor, or the graceless Tarnished who are constantly treated with vitriol and prejudice just because of the greater forces that be, which they have no control over. Even the Three Fingers, what we're led to believe are the source of the Frenzied Flame, appear to be in pain, despair, and suffering, and when they transfer the flame over to us... they crumble to dust and ashes, dead, gone... free from the torment they felt. When you think about it, it's less like some evil being branding us with its curse, and more like some desperate creature trying to free itself of some horrible agony that befell upon it... which leads me to wonder why the Three Fingers were down there in the first place. Why are they considered the symbol of chaos if they too wish to be freed of it?
That’s an interesting thought the only reason I can really think of is because the three fingers are just as deep as deep root depths and thanks to tarnished archeologist we know that’s the location of the lower part of leyndell or atleast what’s left of it. Imagine a siege being so bad the entire lower part of the city collapses hundreds of meters underground that’s a good 10k+ dead instantaneously maybe even more that and the siege and probably the despair of those shunned underground is probably the reason the three fingers are there so like it’s either 1 the three fingers are kind of like a jujustu kaisen type of spirit that manifests where there’s the most suffering (also toms of dead bodies before we get down there of people who’ve gone mad also wonder how that happened) or it’s just it’s original location right below the erdtree which I have my own questions of why the two fingers are three fingers are so close yet so far from eachother
It isn't attracted to suffering as much as it is attracted to death per se, it seems. Through death comes suffering so that certainly has a part in it, but the final catalyst of it all is death, without a chance for rebirth.
I was listening to this in my car. I had to pull over and turn my car off just to make sure I heard everything, and i just sat there on the side of the road until the video was over. Amazing video
Man...this was a hard hitting video. Showing the mindset one has to walk through to get to a place that all life must be avenged for the wrongdoing and suffering that was caused. Kinda makes sense why the starting of the actual frenzied flame quest starts with Edgar as he sought the very revenge of his daughter and continue on in a maddened bloodlust to murder others as well.
I think the game actually makes a strong case for Frenzied Flame, because every person you meet is suffering in this world, one way or another. And even nature itself is suffering greatly, is corrupted and deformed.
@@DraconianDeus I agree. What is left if Ranni wins, or Goldmask rune wins? The Lands Between are still governed by war, and slavery, and cruelty, and rot. Let it all burn.
@@vyor8837 When your dog is dying painfully but its tail still wags when you pet it and feed it treats despite its suffering, you don't feel inclined to prolong the suffering, no? Most people instead opt to take their dog to the vet to say goodbye and put it down. I don't agree that the Frenzied Flame is the way to go, but I can still understand why someone would see it as a viable option. There are more than just a "few" people suffering and sinning in the Lands Between, the entire world is dying horribly and for every genuinely nice person you find, a hundred more are suffering. Hell, the few kind people the Tarnished helps in their travels just wind up dead or worse in most cases; why not just end _everyones'_ suffering by melding the world?
I've been skeptical as ive heard you talk about this in other videos, but that was really cool. It did really convey the feeling you were trying to explain.. I guess why try to explain it yourself when you can quote something like that? well done dude
My God. Absolutely wonderful. That excerpt captivated me, and I felt the anger and indignation. The reasoning was solid, and the emotional appeal was gripping. I understood what the Flame of Frenzy was, but I didn't understand adhering to it. I now do. Fantastic video, though I would've liked more discussion at the end.
This is the third time that I have watched this video, you laid out your points so eloquently. I think that you really portrayed what the frenzied flame is all about. Even though I strongly disagree with the nihilistic worldview held by the frenzied flame worshipers, this is still a very well made video & I could not have done it better myself if I tried.
This video alone is what inspired me to read The Brothers Karamazov. As such, having entered the profundity of Dostoyevsky’s thoughts, I’m grateful to you for creating it. Truly, there can be no suffering, no despair in the absence of life entirely. An ode to the utter blissfulness of nothingness at all.
I say this experiment really payed off for me. As a generally optimistic person I generally understood the premise of the Frenzied Flame, but this really adds depth and clarity as to why someone would seek this path in the context of the game.
I’ve rewatched this video like once a month ever since I got the frenzied flame ending. I like to imagine that the conversation between Ivan and Alyosha as the conversation between the tarnished and Melina at the grace right before the three fingers when Melina tries to convince the tarnished to turn back.
"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" I hadn't read this short story previous to watching this video. But as you were reading those 17 pages, I remembered a conversation I had with an old friend from high school on this story he was reading in english class. He had told me that in this story, there is a city called Omelas. It is a perfect city where everybody is happy and no one suffers. No one except one singular child. This child is locked away from all people and suffers miserably everyday so that the rest of the city may live in happiness. Now most people when they find this out are, for good reason, disgusted. But they choose to go on living their life in Omelas not in blissful ignorance but in acceptance of the truth. However, there are those who are not content with this small sin upon their city. These are the ones who walk away in search of an even better world, or at the very least, reject this one. The reason I was reminded of this is because of Ivan. Omelas is proof (in this fiction) that even the most perfect of worlds always has suffering. And to me, if I understood the point of the passage correctly (it really may have just flown right over my head), Ivan would've walked away from Omelas. For it is a lie. And I think that is the message of the Frenzied Flame. That you can either blissfully ignore the suffering, embrace it, or upend the whole of it and seek to destroy it. Awesome video regardless. I would love someone to correct me on my points though if I really just missed the ball on this take.
@@FlyfishermanMike but who does the suffering and why must they suffer? Is that suffering worth the happiness? How much suffering to happiness is proportional? Enough to know the difference? Is a single child forever tormented worth the joy of a city? Should millions slave to serve a noble few? Could it not be argued that the lack of knowledge to suffering or joy be preferable to any amount of physical, mental, and emotional anguish?
@@FlyfishermanMike I would do much to live a life where I felt nothing at all, for once to have a middling day, and not one where I orgasm, and 300 where I cry.
The pinned comment represents what happens to a generation of minds steeped in "cinematic" "universe" analysis. Like you said in your dark souls 3 videos, it's a failure to engage with the metaphorical. Folding Ideas has a great video about this in regards to the movie Annihilation. Just because the Frenzied Flame is an outer god in the context of the literal events of the game doesn't negate its role as a literary metaphor. Really getting tired of "cinemasins" level "criticism" hijacking the conversations we have about art. edit: great video.
Yes and no. Metaphor is how you personally choose to interpret say the frenzied flame. Some authors like Tolkien resolutely deny that their stories were allegorical in any way to anything other than the story they were telling. If you choose to put FS "stories" on a certain level that's more a statement of yourself. You might reject the simple character drama of the game's plot and focus on artistic metaphor, but then I'd go even farther and say that's a reflection of yourself and your willingness to overindulge in meandering and vague writing for a videogame.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS Are you implying there is no authorial intent to convey themes through storytelling in fromsoftware games? Do you seriously think that they didnt intend for these allegories to be drawn from their work? You say that Tolkein explicitly denied doing such a thing, but why the hell do you assume that Fromsoftware is the same? To anyone who does even the slightest analysis of their storytelling, it is abundantly clear that these are intentional parallels made to build themes.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS @Alpha Beef Tbh your both right and wrong, every story told has almost a form of metaphor but also direction, of course story's can be heavily influenced one way or the other but the writers personal life and also philosophical understanding or view can have influence, just like the story itself untied from the writers life created from imagination or told from a source does too. You can't really have one without the other even a tiny bit creeps in at either spectrum. I also agree that the writers of the game had a vision and deeper meaning to there work and theme, while also agreeing that they leave it open ended and prices missing so that the consumer/viewer has to solve it and form his own understanding and opinion of what they were trying to say, like all good story's creating discussion like us right now on who's right and what means what. So wouldn't bother arguing when no one is right or wrong completely just opinions in the grand scheme, just glad there's story's being told like this that broaden the imagination and can actually form deeper meaning if you choose to look for it.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS that is pretty much why I like the souls style of storytelling since it leaves room for interpretation and discourse. Now we do know there has been many themes that does return in the games, and you can find those just by the environmental storytelling. Which is pretty cool
Man, hearing finding out that there was a way to end the suffering of not just everyone, but every*thing* in the lands between made me finally feel like there was an ending I WANTED to reach in a Souls Game. Say what you will, but to me, this is the good ending.
I strongly disagree. I think it would be awful to wipe out all of life just because some of it is bad. That said, I find it wonderful that Miyazaki and his team managed to create such a deep world with such genuinely powerful philosophies that for once, there is no one "bad ending". It shows how morality is never absolute but relative to personal values.
I don't even wish for the end of everything, but no one is offering a better alternative! People are always crying about how evil the frenzied flame ending is, when the best they offer instead is just a new group being privileged and doing nothing about suffering. To those ignorant people, since you see life beautiful enough to accept suffering, I wish you all the suffering, illness, ugliness, sin and curse in your addiction to life.
The Frenzied Flame ending is no different than what Thanos was trying to accomplish. In every story in which somebody tries to destroy the world/universe to end all suffering, the person responsible is always the villain, no matter how sympathetic they are. It doesn't matter how you justify it, no one has the right to make that choice on behalf of everyone else.
@@Galamoth06did you ask to be born? No one gets a choice about anything in this life. They're simply handed what they're handed and make due with it. Both Thanos and the frenzied flame are very relatable to me since they accept that what they're doing isn't necessarily good. The whole point is that we're incapable of fixing the world. Thanos chose his way thinking it was best though I do think he had a bit of an ego. But with the frenzied flame, it's really hard for me to argue that it's a morally bad ending in an objective sense. Maybe not the most favorable to most people, but I agree that implicit in the division of the one great is the possibility (some might say inevitability) of disharmony. Of course, those are just media, in real life, people's practical approaches and actions are often quite different. But in my mind, there's no denying that for however bleak or nihilistic the rhetoric of the frenzy flame may sound, there's a solid, logical basis to it's goals and even if I wouldn't myself choose them, I certainly can't begrudge anyone who does, knowing what people can suffer in this world
I always thought of the frenzy flame ending to be reverting to before the "big bang" or Aion, or the Japanese creation myth that literally states, "Before the heavens and earth, all was chaos, limitless, without shape or form". I love mythology so I think it's really cool when games create their own mythologies in their world building like Elden ring and FF; it's peek creativity in my opinion. The concept of people worshiping the destruction of all concepts is so interesting; so while it's considered the bad ending, it's probably my favorite.
This story kind of reminds me of dung eaters questline, torturing people beyond the point of death and infecting their corpses to a point their soul is cursed forcing them to be reincarnated as an omen, forcing all men for the rest of time to atone for the torture of the omen in the sewers of the capital.
They're kind of bizarro mirror reflections of each other. The Frenzied Flame wants it all to end because life is suffering. Dung Eater wants it all to *keep going* because life is suffering, and you can add to the sum total of that suffering.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Hey its me again ;). Could this be a reflection of our real world concepts of Nihilism(belief there is no meaning in life) and Absurdism(trying to make our own meaning within life meaninglessness)?
@@ATC43 I have no idea who you are? Sorry. The Frenzied Flame is definitely a reflection in a particular kind of animating nihilism, yes. Though nullificationism is probably a more accurate term, because it's not really positing that life has no meaning, but that whatever meaning to life there is isn't worth the cost of living. I'm genuinely not sure if there's a more specific name for this viewpoint but it would be what most people recognize as nihilism even if I know some philosophy teachers who would disagree with that classification. But Dung Eater's isn't directly absurdist unless you're getting meta-textual. It's more directly sadistic. But from a metatextual standpoint it's absolutely absurdist since yes it's about creating a kind of negative meaning, but it's also absurd in a direct sense that such a thing came from a character called "The Loathsome Dung Eater."
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe I'm sad I did not leave an impression lol. Anyway, yea I was struggling to think of a term to describe the concept as well which is why I settled on Nihilism. And I agree, sadistically absurd would be a good descriptor for Dung Eater's
This was a very thought provoking video. I hope others get what your going for with this. It did get really morbid at times though, kids suffering really gets to me even if its just hypothetical.
And keep in mind they were just a few, select examples. Now just try to imagine for a moment the amount of suffering perpetrated all over the world since time immemorial. Ivan could have continued on for a thousand, thousand years and there still would be no end to it. Let's be thankful that we can't, in fact, possibly imagine it. Ignorance truly is bliss.
They ain’t hypothetical, lol. In fact, worse shit is happening as we speak. You think Epstein’s little band was all there was to it? That’s just the tip of the underwater fucking mountain.
Kinda reminds me of The Cabin in the Woods (ENDING SPOILERS FOR THAT MOVIE) When the two survivors decide to not complete the ritual and let the old gods destroy the world and start over. They basically decide “if you gotta keep sacrificing people to prevent the end of the world, then it’s better to just let it end.”
Watching and listening to this video gave me what I think is a good conclusion about the flame of frenzy. So the flame of frenzy started with the three fingers right? I'm beginning to imagine that the three fingers and the flame of frenzy have this philosophy of life being an issue because the three fingers themselves were born flawed. The Three Fingers wasn't born into a life of luxury like the two fingers were, since they're basically Jehovah's witnesses for the greater will, because it was born with this maddening flame that scorches it which I imagine is incredibly painful for a being like that, the way it writhes and wriggles in it's cutscene kinda gives off the impression that it's still in a lot of pain. The Three Fingers for this reason is against everything that has to do with life in the lands between, because it was born in a way that only allowed it to suffer because what's the point of enjoying life if you were born to suffer, regardless if it were anyone's fault?
@@Alex_Dul yeah exactly, inheriting it is essential having that pain be passed from it's original holder to you because no sane person would want to willingly have most of their body charred. Also makes Miquella's Needle seem like a fine form of antidepressant
I really don't think the 3fingers being envious of the 2fingers is something they were going for. I know a lot of anarchists and such hold on to their ideas out of envy but it reads as too simplistic to me.
@@807D14M0ND5 I'm wasn't saying it's envious of the two fingers, i was just drawing the connection that because they're fingers they were probably made by the same thing for the same purpose and the three fingers is the way it is just by sheer circumstance
@@807D14M0ND5 Yes, that's "normie" anarchy, realer anarchy would be closer to Ranni. Since anarchy is only a means to an end not an absolute because once you're gone order will come anyway. The Frenzied Flame is closer to an also normie ideal on Nihliism as well as Anarchism. Burn it all, so all can be one, since I hurt, I must be hurt. Which is kinda ironic and also why it's a great ending path. For one it shows player agency you "linked the fire" and burned the world anew. The reason why it's ironic because to finish the game "normally" means you carved a path through countless foes, you hurt many others especially if you pvp. Which makes the frenzied flame have no deep meaning after all. It's simply fire as fire burns
I'd be surprised if many people took the time to listen to and understand that full passage. I also thought it was certainly more subtle/tasteful than it could have been. There are many much worse accounts out there to describe the suffering of children. Very nicely done.
From what I understood, Frenzied flame is the state where a being realizes its purpose. Which is none. There is absolutely no reason to go on because deep inside, we all know: We are a "badly made" specie (The mistake mentionned by Hayata) . Always seeking for more and more. Never satisfied with our current status. A vicious circle that will ALWAYS bring suffering (physical or mental). And to avoid that, we can temporary escape that suffering with the suffering of the others. By being "Superior". In intelligence, in fortune, in success, the list goes on and on. But as a badly made specie, we adapt, and we want more. "Just a little bit more" we often hear. From facts and books, we can also conclude that the biggest of Humanity is the Boredom. This, for me at least, is one of the biggest source of suffering. Boredom is the actual feeling of feeling useless as, by nature, we get used to pretty much everything we might get an interest into. And so, we ask for more, to distract our mind, as we absolutely DON'T WANT, to be alone with our mind and our thoughts and questions about life's meaning (What should I do now.... at what cost...?) We are a specie that loves to feel superior to its pair. Therefore, there will ALWAYS people inferiors to others. Frenzied Flame is, in a way, the consciousness. The consciousness to exist. An animal, have the ability to simply sleep when it has nothing to do. When it's time to hunt, it will hunt. When it's time travel, it will travel. They have no time to think about their "purpose". Constantly fighting for their life. As the ultimate Apex specie, we've come to a point where there is no "survival" anymore. We have too much time for ourself. The Boredom is a human and only human thing. The only specie to know and endure this feeling every know and then. An extremely new feeling a the scale of our Planet's life. Another famous quote that could perfectly describe what is the Frenzied flame is: Hard times create strong people Strong people create good times Good times create weak people The ultimate vicious circle specific to our specie. The world of Elden Ring, fulfilled with gigantic and magnificent castles and such (Good times)..., Today, there is nothing but ruins (Hard times). The Frenzied Flame is when someone will have the horror though "What now... What should I do.... At what cost" Anyway, great video and very instructive! (Am not depressed tho haha. Life will always win I hope! Big kisses to everyone who had the patience this read this pile of crap X)
I really appreciate this experiment. I only made it through two pages, before I stopped. I have limited time at night to watch UA-cam, and I don't think I'm in the head space to really focus and contemplate on the implications their conversation. I think I will come back to this when I have more time and more headspace. Thanks for doing something different, I'd like to give it it's fair shake, instead of falling asleep 3 pages in bc I'm not in the right space to hear it out.
Amazing breakdown. Honestly one of the best “lore” videos I’ve ever seen. So glad I went with the frenzy ending. Even more I so I embraced the fingers AFTER Melina burned the tree.
I despise melina. Talking about the beauty of life in front of genocided clan of innocent merchants. Gave me vibes of an Instagram model taking a picture of herself in front of a concentration camp. Absolutely vile.
Absolutely loved this and would love just a deep dive on the other endings and their ideologies. But if this is the only deep dive into the gods = ideologies, it would have been worth it. Great video!
Wow.. at first I was not sure where it was going but it’s like you said. This conversation and experiment really makes one look through the lens of one who has chosen the path of the frenzy. @Ratatoskr, you really are something. It must have taken a lot of effort to research and present something so heart wrenching. I hope you found your moment of peace to bounce out of the well that is created when researching this.
Mission accomplished. At the end of the vid I didn’t just feel the flame of frenzy, I believed in it. Also many thanks for exposing me to the brothers Karamazov. Sounds like a great read
Im sure this has already been said, but this was SO well done. Perfect narration, you did so well relating the stories to the lore that at the end it had me beyond captivated. I had to hold back tears at the end, I shit you not. Many thanks for the video.
There's a lot of similarities between the Flame of Frenzy and what Neon Genesis Evangelion calls "Instrumentality", tho in that instance we're not necessarily talking about ending life just ending the concept of "living". Much like in Elden Ring, Instrumentality is described as returning all living being to one unified state. To break down the barriers, the ego, that separates and therefore inherently alienates each individual. To create a state of perfect empathy and understanding since the very concept of "you" wouldn't exist, "No more fractures. No more births". Given how influential NGE has been on all of japanese media i wouldn't be surprised if Instrumentality plays at least a small part in the inception of the Flame of Frenzy.
This is why Yura (Shabriri's vessel) offered us, and most certainly Vyke as well, the option to use the flame of frenzy to burn the Erdtree in lieu of our pseudo-maiden Melina. Why force another to suffer when it could be avoided?
Ratatoskr, the lord of Frenzied Flame was the one ending I understood the least before watching this video, and now I'm considering going back to Shabriri to offer him my own grapes. This was a very challenging experience for me, mainly because the tortures described make my stomach turn, but the valuable philosophy behind Ivan's point is not lost on me. Actually, it helps me put to words my ever-present denial of religious beliefs.
Interesting. For me, this little philosophical debate has strengthen my ever-present religious beliefs instead. It may have more to do with what perspective was already there before begin exposed to this discussion and how it merely strengthened said perspective instead challenging it?
@@TheDJman248 yeah, I suppose it's very hard for us (everyone) to challenge our beliefs when consuming media, as we always take in things through our own perspective, which is always biased, right? And honestly I believe I'd be happier if I could believe in something, it's just really impossible for me right now.
If you were at all intrigued by the writting, please do yourself the favor of reading The Brothers K. It is one of the greatest novels, you will not regret the effort. Personally, I like Crime and Phnishment better, by the same author, and it’s an easier read, but Brothers K is maybe the most influential
Ahh Crime and Punishment. What a brutal book. That book alone, if understood, will scare you straight. Lol. The punishment always follows, even if it's your own conscience doing the punishment. Porfirio Petrovich is such a relentless pursuer lol
Bro this was just on my homepage as a suggested vid. I didnt want the horrors of this world forced into my head with 6 inch drill bit. Fr tho phenomenal philosophy exploration. Subscription earned
I'm re-reading Notes from Underground right now. I can't tell you how surprised I was, after finishing the first part and hopping onto UA-cam to watch some Elden Ring content, to see Ratatoskr connecting the frenzied flame to a passage in the Brother's Karamazov. You just became my favorite UA-camr! The themes of great literature are present in droves in Miyazaki era From Soft games. This is not because he is stealing them. It is because he is a visionary artist and they tend to shed a guiding light to their time by reflecting further upon such universal themes. The life is suffering theme is also (as you have said previously) ubiquitous in Hindu/Yogic and Buddhist thought. In Western Esotericism it is referred to as "The Black School" at times. The end goal of this occult faction is to solve the problem of human suffering and the suffering caused by humans by erasing all life from the universe. It is both horrifying and easily defensible with a deep understanding of the true horror that lies at the heart of all life. Things are a lot more complicated in my mind. An even deeper understanding of human nature will lead you to fight for the continuation of this great game of suffering. We are sublime. That is, we are the concrescence between that which is beautiful and that which is horrifying. Not by chance, but because it is a highly adaptive modality in the proving grounds of evolution. I love us. Even for all of our ugliness. And as such, I reject the frenzied flame. Though it does warm my heart at times...with a cold light.
We are hairless apes with tiny muscles that not only removed ourselves from the food chain, we made it to the moon. It is possible that intelligent life is all over the place, that in the grand scheme of things, we are not special. But relative to anything I have ever seen as a terrestrial ape-man, special is quite the understatement. We have hit cognitive escape velocity! If by some miracle, we survive long enough, we could seed the entire galaxy with self-replicating nano-robots (universal constructors) that terraform millions of planets around the galaxy by re-arranging matter on the level of re-arranging protons, neutrons and electrons. Then create city infrastructure, then create bio-labs and seed them with terrestrial life (including exact genetic copies of humans who have left the genetic data behind). This is highly unlikely. We will probably kill ourselves. But the fact that this is a possible outcome of human future history means we are special. If it doesn't, within a greater context, then so be it. I will wait and see if that greater context reveals itself to me. I get your sentiment though. If you look at what is wrong with us...we are awful. Time will tell. I think it was the historian James Burke who said that (and this is a paraphrase) optimism is the only way to play a part in a possible positive outcome. The pessimists have already condemned human kind to failure and thus, they remove themselves from the game. All of the progress we have made from our humble beginnings! It is inspiring. Holy hell if we aren't the little ape that could! We should be throwing feces at each other, lost in the pettiest of ape games. And here we are making progressively more and more incredible things...whilst the vast majority of us still engage in the pettiest of ape games of course but we don't need everyone to be in the right mindset to make progress.
My heart has grown so tired of the world. It does not seek growth, it's stagnant. We sit adrift in a sea of wonder and stars. Yet we fight for sandcastles ruled by aged children. We create problems where there are none to explain why we can't go out into the vastness. We are cowards hiding in our vices, perhaps it's best we dissappear. And yet I cannot extinguish that faint glow of hope. It flickers still, and so I march on. Hoping it may once again ignite within me.
The video was exceptional, but i had to come back and say I absolutely loved the idea of the book excerpt and it was very well executed. I’ve now ordered the book. Thanks!
I was going to ramble on about how this was such an great experiment but really I just have to say, well done. Great content man and I loved every second of this video.
I have never read The Brothers Karamazov, and now that I've gotten a taste of it so unexpectedly.. well goodness, that was quite a shock! Fantastic use of literature for framing the Flame of Frenzy. I must admit, though I do not like the way the Flame of Frenzy chooses to cease the suffering, perhaps that is still for the best in such a world. Man, I came here for lore and left with philosophy. 10/10
I enjoyed the format. Perhaps you could do a bit more summarizing rather than just reading. I definitely enjoy your interpretation of the chaos ending. When I first saw the ending, I was reminded of Zorg from the fifth element attempting to baptize the world in fire to cleanse it
I think you missed the point in the Fifth Element that Zorg was just a tool for the entity of pure evil. He didn't want to destroy the world, he wanted what he always wanted: more money, more profit. When he speaks to the entity of pure evil in the film going by "Mr. Black" he negotiates with it for more money, and it replies that "money is of no importance" while Zorg sweats some sort of evil juice from his forehead. Zorg was an instrument of evil, but didn't share its goals. But I agree about the video. This is definitely too long for how much of it isn't Ratatoskr's own thoughts.
I feel like he had to quote it whole. I don't think summarizing it will give us the same feeling we have now . Also i just watched the critical drinker talk about the fifth element what a coincidence lol
that's something that needs to be read in its entirety, imo. "And then more bad stuff happened" wouldn't be enough. You really need to hear the whole diatribe and the juxtaposition of Alyosha, a believer's, responses.
@@jazeenharal6013 Yeah I don't think the problem is necessarily quoting Dostoevsky in full, it's that there should be more Ratatoskr to elaborate upon it if he is. It's a proportionality kind of thing. If he had more words to delve into the larger philosophy of not just nihilism but really nullificationism or death cults in general then the length of the quote is fine. But if he's going to be short and to the point, then the quote should be shorter. It's about writing balance. The thing you're quoting shouldn't be the longest portion of what you have to say about the quote itself.
While I have only heard summaries of "the Brothers Karamazov" along with some of Fyodor Dostoevsky works I have never read any of them. I truly can't not describe how great that reading was. Also Damn that truly describes the Flame of Frenzy's reasoning. When I went to the wiki and started looking up Shabriri and Hyetta's quest I was already astounded by the story. I had merely presumed the flame of frenzy was bad based on youtube comments describing it as, destroys everything, which is true. But even with the great in game storyline I don't think I was quite so empathetic and understanding of the Flame of Frenzy until I saw this video. It really does just put things in a place closer to my headspace/mind. It sort of puts the stakes in my backyard rather than in a hypothetical universe. Thank you for giving this reading, I will always think of Elden Ring and the Flame of Frenzy along these lines even with any add on lore in future dlc or games. Peace🔥🔥🔥
I couldn't comment on this when I first watched it. I think you were successful in what you were trying to convey. It was very emotional. Thank you for that experience. Wonderful video.
I adore this. It's what comes back to torment my mind often. The injustice of life. No child chose their lot. They just suffer what has been given them. They have no opportunity to take back what was done. They are defenseless. Many don't have any opportunity to avoid pain. To bring life to this world is to bring suffering to this world. Not suffering to you, but to the child with no choice. You can't guarantee it's happiness. You don't know the future. But pain is all but universal. You can only guarantee it's pain.
Ur doing a good job of sneaking in outta nowhere and establishing yourself as a vaati level lore master. Agree with many of the issues with Vaati's recent video you pointed out in the ygdrassil podcast. It was definitely weird to hear his speculation about certain things stated with such confidence, as if it isn't up for debate
@@CIOTECHSFX meh I'm pretty confident he recognizes the fact that vaati is pretty prolific on UA-cam. Mentions about as much in the most recent podcast. That's all I mean
When you were about to do to the madness experiment you said “first” and then a reeses ad popped up and said “the chicken, or the egg”…. I think i get it now
"Well yeah, and I'm sad, but at the same time I'm really happy that something could make me feel that sad. It's like, it makes me feel alive, you know? It makes me feel human. And the only way I could feel this sad now is if I felt somethin' really good before. So I have to take the bad with the good, so I guess what I'm feelin' is like a, beautiful sadness. I guess that sounds stupid." -Butters, a true tarnished
This was not quite what I was expecting, but I thoroughly enjoyed it! Was certainly an interesting way to interpret (and perhaps extrapolate) the representation of The Frenzied Flame in the game. Great video!
This has been fantastic! Thank you for this new style of storytelling. I think this has been essential in order to make people understand the frenzy flame
Are there any audiobooks that you've narrated? Any stories on this channel? The way you told the Karazmov book was very compelling, and has left me hungry for more.
I heard this, understood this, but felt no change. Makes me wonder if I’m already at that despair. I 100% agree with the frenzied flame, and I agree with Ivan
Everyone gets dealt a hand and that's just the way it is. If before birth you were asked if you want to play, even knowing the risks, who wouldn't take that chance? Life has too much good to offer. If the state of things bothers you, slip the less fortunate a couple extra cards when possible, or better yet teach them how to play them right. Do whatever you feel is right to help. Ain't no justice in robbing the happiness of those who have it, or could have it.
@@Sekooma I wouldn’t, I’d have refused life. Life isn’t worth the price paid for it. That hand everyone was dealt, it won’t win you anything, all you can do is lose and watch others lose. People will keep paying some cost over and over but never gain anything of true worth for the price paid. If I had the option to burn the world to ash and wipe out all life from it, I’d take that without a second of hesitation. I’d honestly purge this entire world of everything. Wipe away the entire past, destroy any trace of anything that came before leave nothing but cinders and ruin. I don’t see a single beautiful thing in this world, despite the years I’ve looked. Happiness is less of a thing and more of an ideal people chance, I’ve never met someone truly happy rather people chasing a dream to make them happy. Every day the bill comes due and we pay a little more until we have nothing left and we die.
@@silverdragon147 Sad that you feel that way. More likely though you just haven't found the things with true worth for ya. Maybe look for a loving gf to start. Or any passion.
Just keep digging until both pleasure and suffering become meaningless (or at least small, extremely insignificant) concepts. They are nothing more than a distraction from the real problem - our limits, our inability to fully comprehend things like life.
I listened to this last night to help me sleep, and it got stuck on repeat and I kept listening to it when I woke up and I think it erased my dreams and I'm feeling very nihilistic today. If anyone needs me I'll be flicking lit matches at a barrel of gasoline.
It's funny that the moment you mentioned The Brothers Karamazov I knew exactly what excerpt you were going to read. From a Dostoievsky fan to another, this was a great video.
I know that multiple NPCs refer to the Frenzied Flame as chaos incarnate and your character is then referred to as the Lord of Chaos but the ending you get really seems like the exact opposite of chaos. What truly is more chaotic, the wants and needs of millions of individuals being acted out in and upon the world along with new life and death taking place or all life and all of existence being subsumed into one essence? Life in the Lands Between and in our world is much more chaotic than the singularity of a black hole. When everything exists as one there can be no chaos as there are no conflicting wills being acted out upon one another. All are one.
From my (very limited) understanding, Chaos in a lot of mythologies is the primordial state of existence - a formless void in which all the elements are jumbled together which becomes ordered by the Gods/whatever divine being. Shamelessly stolen from the Wikipedia page on the concept: "Before the ocean and the earth appeared- before the skies had overspread them all- the face of Nature in a vast expanse was naught but Chaos uniformly waste. It was a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight; and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap." - Ovid (Metamorphoses) The Frenzied Flame ending returns to this state.
"You fool, don't you understand? No one wishes to go on."
Mood
When Shibiri said" Burn the Erdtree to the Ground . So Chaos Would Arise." I never felt so connected to a character. as a metal head and a deep thinker this is my calling
Same applies to our world
@@guillermolopez1377 The entire Flame of Frenzy questline, and especially Shabriri remind me of Lateralus by Tool. Things like embracing chaos and burning things down to become one is parallel to embracing the random and riding the spiral. Something a lot of Tarnished must feel is very comforting since their guidance and grace has been taken away from them, and feel their order in life has been lost. More so that even. Their order in life dictated that they must be lost, and they're probably are willing to cling to any little order or guidance that calls to them.
Hang in there bro.
I know this video is weird. But I hope some of you got what I was going for.
I've been checking your channel for the new vid several times a day hahaha. I'm excited to see how this one goes!
I'm always ready to get weird! Bring it on
Miyazaki is weird. I would think that the best way to understand is just like this!
I liked it. This was great!
Not what I was expecting at all. Heavy stuff. I definitely resonate with Ivan.
100 percent intellectually understood the flame of frenzy, now I have FELT it. Truly exceptional take on this lore, I know it was a risk but I greatly enjoyed that dip into despair to really grasp the philosophy at my core. Bravo.
_"Burn the Erdtree..._
_To the ground..._
_And incinerate all that divides and distinguishes!_
_Aaahhhh...May chaos take the world!_
*MAY. CHAOS. TAKE. THE WORLD!!!!!"*
It's like listening to psychotic tangential speech.
@@jamesbolt1003 He sounds pretty black pilled lol
What if you 100% intellectually agreed with it? Also it's the cool Tool Ending^^
Fake-deep.
"Never mind, I want to suffer too," muttered Alyosha.
That cut me right to the heart.
The simple "Never mind, I want to suffer too" from Alyosha hits me deeply, Ivan hadn't explained his point and yet he was beginning to understand, and once you begin to understand you don't wanna stop
This is such a unique way to present the lore of the frenzied flame
Honestly, this did A LOT in helping me to understand the philosophy behind it all.
I knew the what the text was saying, but i never understood how you could come to those conclusions.
This video helped me understand how someone could see life as a mistake.
Well... the Brothers Karamazov helped, but Squirrelman's page number selection was spot on.
This is pretty much how i felt when i was depressed, i viewed my existance as pure suffering. As such when i came upon the flame of frenzy i immediately knew what it was about
@@youngrich3386 and as such the madness becomes clear.
@Nook Small Art is philosophy for people who don't like to read
@@JustinL614 I take it then literature is not art?
When considering the Brothers Karamozov it is important to remember that Dostoyevsky was a believer/had faith, but he doesn't strawman the opposing view. It is just something to keep in mind.
Which is what also makes crime and punishment also such an amazing book, the different perspectives of what's right or wrong and justice is very thought provoking. The final conclusion of Brothers Karamazov that I got was that religion isn't important on itself, nor for believer or for an atheist. Since the ultimate goal of religion has already taken place in history, to serve as a foundation to bring order and create a moral compass for society.
yes, brothers karamazov is perhaps the greatest illustration in artistic history of the pain and suffering of having actual, genuine faith - which requires looking into the deepest depths of horror and defiantly refusing to blink
Dostoyevsky absolutely steelman's his opposition before deconstructing them. It's honestly impressive.
gotta respect the integrity.
@@Dragonswiftx Like good plot development is built on overcoming pain, and good strategy on the respect of one's enemies; so too is goood debate built on the belief of the integrity and sincerity of the side that one opposes.
For even if they are not rational, there is a fundamental and humanistic metric to emotion; like many pieces of evidence become a case in court, enough pain added together becomes a reason and motivation in and of itself - and damn where it comes from or why.
The subjectivity of pain is the strength of the devil. A splinter and a bullet can cause equal pain in two different people, and both will scream. Was the rage of the man at the injury of his dog equal to the rage of the mother at the death of her son? And the poor, dumb dog; were it able to speak, would it have also asked for the child who wronged it to die? I think it would have.
This is a great take on the Flame of Frenzy, its not about its ingame lore reasons, its the conception and idea behind it, and i think this is the best take you could have made to have it understandable for everyone who listens.
The Brothers Karamazov is possibly my favorite novel of all time, and I'd frankly pay to hear you narrate the entire book.
I feel like a lot of people focus too much on the lore itself and not on the themes of Fromsoft games, so your videos are such a breath of fresh air.
I love that you read Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov has a soft spot in my heart. I would like to note that the scene about the horse being whipped on the eyes and beaten to death also appears in another Dostoevsky novel, "Crime and Punishment" and it's something the author watched as a boy. I can only imagine how this young boy must have felt watching this defenseless animal needlessly suffering and how that impacted him as a man.
Wow that’s amazing I was confused on that dream rodion had but now it makes a little bit more sense
You've started down this path -- I beg that you continue so that many more can understand the dark truths that lie within the soulsbourne series. These games, and many others, hold the key to encouraging the philosophically uninterested to glimpse beyond the curtain. Even if only for a moment.
Thank you
YES. THIS THIS THIS. They're absolutely gateways for so many different philosophies. Existentialism, Entropy, Nihilism, Death and Rebirth, Duality of Existence, Free Will vs Determinism, The Concept of Time, Deism.
There's so much there in each of the games. More lore youtubers need to do this and look outside of the text of the game to gain a more round understanding of their concepts. Its why videos like this one and Jacob Geller's Dark Souls 3 Is Thinking of Ending Things are some of my favorites.
@@ATC43 I think one of the problem with trying to tie outside philosophies onto the game is, it is very possible that one are just projecting it onto the work regardless if it's actually there or not. One unfortunate example is pretty much anyone who tries to attribute their preferred philosophy and/or values onto Tolkien's works, claiming that his works absolutely have allegories pertaining to [insert whatever here].
I am not saying this to forbid nor dismiss this process as just "reading too much into it" since even I find most videos like the one Rata made here to be very enjoyable and insightful, I guess I'm just saying this to give a reason why not many people want to risk sounding pretentious.
@@shira_yone That's a fair point. Though I also think it's important to consider that, although authors may not specifically intend to depict some religious or moral philosophy, they often still do. Particularly in the west with Judeo-Christian beliefs and ideas. When you start to look for it and break it down there are tons of parallels between all kinds of stories and philosophies. Most stories are just repackaging some ideas that have already been iterated on countless times. And I don't think that's a bad thing by any means.
Point is I don't think it's unfair or wrong to seek out parallels between these things. I don't necessarily believe that projecting your beliefs onto some work is wrong. I definitely think it can be poorly thought out and not be a good projection or connection. But there is nothing wrong with finding unintentional parallels in any work as long as the parallel makes sense. lol.
Hopefully what i'm saying makes sense. Haha. I don't even know if i'm actually making a good point or addressing anything. More of just a thought dump.
@@shira_yone isnt that the point of art. Its there and not matter what the viewer will have an interpretation of it whether its good or not
@@ryanhopkins5239 audience having interpretations of their own and someone proclaiming that the author of the art having the same interpretation as them are 2 different things.
Other than that, yes that may be so. All I'm saying is just be careful not to cross the line and became the latter (like that really dumb article claiming Elden Ring was about the pandemic).
What you said isn't exactly relevant to what I was saying, no offense.
The Flame of Frenzy represents a type of nihilism born from despair and that despair no longer being contained as it consumes everything in its miserable howling , rejecting life itself. The dark side of the color yellow is often associated with madness, the book the King in Yellow being a prime example of this.
I've felt this nihilistic despair and struggle with it still from time to time but the counter to this belief is to hold life and its potential for something better to a greater value than the suffering that exists and that's really difficult but when you finally break from that cycle you have a clarity of just how beautiful this world truly is and gain a greater appreciation for it. It truly is madness, it locks you in a mental cycle that narrows your thinking from all potential and possibilities so you only see destruction as the only possible answer. Funny enough the Castlevania anime posits a similar quandary and has a character counter by saying " Say you get what you want and kill all the people in the world. You end human cruelty yes but you end human kindness too. No more jokes, no more surprises." But then he goes on to ask the other character with this mindset why not teach others to try and make that suffering a little less by your own hands(paraphrasing but that's the gist of it). It frames the mindset of yellow nihilism as one of extreme deprivation but asks the person locked in it to use that unique perspective to help make less suffering in the world and in turn less suffering for themselves. This way you are channelling that pain, the agony of those that have suffered and continues to suffer in to something positive, to increase life's potential for something better and in a way avenge that suffering. This was long but this video really got me thinking.
Sadly, I really don't get any comfort from being in the same boat with all of you. Too many scum keep shooting the floor. Not enough men want them thrown overboard.
There is a fault with that, what if they have tried numerous times and seen others fail and suffer. You cannot talk a terrorist out of killing, a general from slaughtering civilians, a murder from killing, a company from polluting for money, and so on. Like is both beautiful and cruel, the beauty cannot overwhelm the pain because those in pain cannot see the beauty, even if they can it is mundane compared to the quantity of cruelty they face. Any good you do to erase suffering can be undone in an instant, it has happened and will continue to happen, because it is nature. And I say that as someone who isn't a nihilist
@@latel4544 You're missing the point of what I said entirely. The goal is the effort put in not necessarily the end itself as there will always be suffering. I said nothing about ending it as that's not possible. You focus on what you can do and you keep trying. Your essentially making an argument for inaction which is exactly how that nihilistic despair I described traps you. "Since life has no intrinsic meaning the collective suffering of life outweighs anything good life has to offer so it would be better if we all just disappeared" is what the Flame of Frenzy represents in relation to us. My point is that to overcome that lie you need to be able to see the value of life beyond just the suffering and do what's within your power to make less suffering and in turn make your own suffering less. This can be done in a myriad of ways and when you realize that despite all of the terrible things in life good can happen and life contains that potential for better and as long as that potential exists life isn't just suffering.
I don't think it's about "rejecting life itself" more like rejecting individual life and making all life one. Hyetta's particular dialogue is "melt it all away, until all is one again." I think it's important that she doesn't just leave it on "melt it all away"
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi It's a mixture of both, in the themes of elden ring you make it one again because that is how life was prior to the mistake, if there is no individual there can be no suffering no thought. But that conclusion philosophically is gathered from "all life suffers and to end it all life must end. As that is better than the suffering life causes" I'm speaking of both the Frenzied Flame and the literature. As that sentiment has been used a lot in recent years for antagonists but usually misunderstood
What a fantastic name for a lore channel! For those of you who don’t know Ratatoskr carries information to and from the gods up and down Yggdrasil (the world tree that holds up all the worlds in Norse lore)
And Urd is one of the Norns that sits under Yggdrasil. Urd Tree. Erdtree? Tree of Fate? Actually it would be Tree of Past as Urd represents the past.
@@radagast7200 I'm surprised that some people are still clicking on the fact Elden Ring has a lot of Norse influence. We've got a giant World Tree, Gods battling each other as the end of the world approaches, the mortal ream at the mid of the tree, the dead at the roots of the tree (Hel), multiple layers of reality/realms, a _literal_ valkyrie who'll kick your ass seven ways 'till Sunday... And that's not even going into the fact the Elden Ring itself resembles the Triquetra or Radagon's cross hatch symbol is basically just the Web of Wyrd (ie. The symbol of Fate).
@@conspiracypanda1200 Torrent reminds me of Thor's goat steeds. Also the smith's anvil bears a resemblance to Mjolnir. I thought Rani was supposed to represent Hel though. After all she has a wolf brother who is fated to help slay the God of War. She also seems pretty linked with death and has a splt face kind of. I guess that would make her first victim a sort of Baldur (even though it was loki in the myths) which makes Marikas freak out and attempt to conquer death even more on point. Also, Rani spent alot of time in those underground eternal cities... Helhiem?
@@radagast7200 ranni isn’t really a wolf if anything she’s closer to Loki in nature, related but not, a chosen one but not, a trickster.
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus I didn't say Ranni was a wolf. Her 'brother' Blaidd is is. My implication was that Ranni was suppose to be Hel, whose brothers were Fenrir (a giant wolf who was fated to kill Thor, the God of War), and a giant snake named Jormungandr (destined to kill Odin).
The three were children of Loki, who murdered (sort of) Freya's favorite son, Baldur, leading Freya (Merica in this theory) to become enraged and try to bring him back.
Edit... Loki was responsible for the death of Baldur, not his children. Sorry if that was unclear.
It’s kind of crazy how often video games build an entirely new world, but then ask the exact same questions in our world. I remember playing Witcher 3 and thinking about the interpretation of the bloody Baron and his family, for example. A Christian might feel sympathy for the Baron, being cuckolded while away at war and providing for his family. Not to mention his wife’s abortion and her apparent success in turning his daughter against him despite her own flaws. A secular person, OTOH, will more likely see the Baron as a monster and hate him.
Seeing the complete disarray that is the world of Elden Ring, it can be totally understandable that one would even prefer the nihilistic route that the frenzied flame represents. After all, you look at the cities and towns in the Lands Between (like Leyndell, and the smaller towns like the Windmill village, Sellia, Village of the Albinaurics, etc) and see them completely depopulated and destroyed beyond a few enemies mindlessly programmed to attack you. What’s even here to preserve? Liurnia is flooded, and Caelid is engulfed in scarlet rot and surrounded by walls of fire to keep it out of Limgrave. Even the eternal cities are ruined.
that’s why the elden lord ending is the worst one all you do is continue the cycle changing it slightly
I don't get the dichotomy of Christian and secular. You can justify the wife and the husband in both worldviews. The wife did the cheating and turned the daughter against her father. That's very easy to feel sympathy for him in a secular worldview.
From what I gather, the Frenzied Flame is neither good nor evil... it's something different. It's melancholy, anguish, and despair incarnate. Of all the places it manifests at, it manifests where folk have suffered the most, like the merchants who've been persecuted and genocided because of the plague that cursed their people, or the Erdtree soldiers displaced all over Mount Gelmir who faced great losses during Morgott's crusade against Volcano Manor, or the graceless Tarnished who are constantly treated with vitriol and prejudice just because of the greater forces that be, which they have no control over.
Even the Three Fingers, what we're led to believe are the source of the Frenzied Flame, appear to be in pain, despair, and suffering, and when they transfer the flame over to us... they crumble to dust and ashes, dead, gone... free from the torment they felt. When you think about it, it's less like some evil being branding us with its curse, and more like some desperate creature trying to free itself of some horrible agony that befell upon it... which leads me to wonder why the Three Fingers were down there in the first place. Why are they considered the symbol of chaos if they too wish to be freed of it?
Beaut
That’s an interesting thought the only reason I can really think of is because the three fingers are just as deep as deep root depths and thanks to tarnished archeologist we know that’s the location of the lower part of leyndell or atleast what’s left of it. Imagine a siege being so bad the entire lower part of the city collapses hundreds of meters underground that’s a good 10k+ dead instantaneously maybe even more that and the siege and probably the despair of those shunned underground is probably the reason the three fingers are there so like it’s either 1 the three fingers are kind of like a jujustu kaisen type of spirit that manifests where there’s the most suffering (also toms of dead bodies before we get down there of people who’ve gone mad also wonder how that happened) or it’s just it’s original location right below the erdtree which I have my own questions of why the two fingers are three fingers are so close yet so far from eachother
It isn't attracted to suffering as much as it is attracted to death per se, it seems. Through death comes suffering so that certainly has a part in it, but the final catalyst of it all is death, without a chance for rebirth.
Nah the merchants thought they could make a central bank in the lands between and failed. Godfrey found out
The three fingers don't do that. They keep existing.
I was listening to this in my car. I had to pull over and turn my car off just to make sure I heard everything, and i just sat there on the side of the road until the video was over.
Amazing video
Man...this was a hard hitting video. Showing the mindset one has to walk through to get to a place that all life must be avenged for the wrongdoing and suffering that was caused. Kinda makes sense why the starting of the actual frenzied flame quest starts with Edgar as he sought the very revenge of his daughter and continue on in a maddened bloodlust to murder others as well.
I think the game actually makes a strong case for Frenzied Flame, because every person you meet is suffering in this world, one way or another. And even nature itself is suffering greatly, is corrupted and deformed.
@@DraconianDeus I agree. What is left if Ranni wins, or Goldmask rune wins? The Lands Between are still governed by war, and slavery, and cruelty, and rot. Let it all burn.
@@DraconianDeus and so you decide to kill everyone for the sins and desires of the few?
@@vyor8837
When your dog is dying painfully but its tail still wags when you pet it and feed it treats despite its suffering, you don't feel inclined to prolong the suffering, no? Most people instead opt to take their dog to the vet to say goodbye and put it down.
I don't agree that the Frenzied Flame is the way to go, but I can still understand why someone would see it as a viable option. There are more than just a "few" people suffering and sinning in the Lands Between, the entire world is dying horribly and for every genuinely nice person you find, a hundred more are suffering. Hell, the few kind people the Tarnished helps in their travels just wind up dead or worse in most cases; why not just end _everyones'_ suffering by melding the world?
@@ojamarojo1301 because death as mercy should be done on a case by case basis.
I've been skeptical as ive heard you talk about this in other videos, but that was really cool. It did really convey the feeling you were trying to explain.. I guess why try to explain it yourself when you can quote something like that?
well done dude
My God. Absolutely wonderful. That excerpt captivated me, and I felt the anger and indignation. The reasoning was solid, and the emotional appeal was gripping. I understood what the Flame of Frenzy was, but I didn't understand adhering to it. I now do. Fantastic video, though I would've liked more discussion at the end.
Same, I was also expecting an analysis at the end contextualizing the excerpt with the game, but still liked the video
This is the third time that I have watched this video, you laid out your points so eloquently. I think that you really portrayed what the frenzied flame is all about. Even though I strongly disagree with the nihilistic worldview held by the frenzied flame worshipers, this is still a very well made video & I could not have done it better myself if I tried.
This video alone is what inspired me to read The Brothers Karamazov. As such, having entered the profundity of Dostoyevsky’s thoughts, I’m grateful to you for creating it. Truly, there can be no suffering, no despair in the absence of life entirely. An ode to the utter blissfulness of nothingness at all.
Watching this now my man. Incredible illuminating take. Thank you for this awesome take!
Ayo love your content Smough
@@jakobblakemore2849 thank you sir!
I say this experiment really payed off for me. As a generally optimistic person I generally understood the premise of the Frenzied Flame, but this really adds depth and clarity as to why someone would seek this path in the context of the game.
I’ve rewatched this video like once a month ever since I got the frenzied flame ending. I like to imagine that the conversation between Ivan and Alyosha as the conversation between the tarnished and Melina at the grace right before the three fingers when Melina tries to convince the tarnished to turn back.
"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"
I hadn't read this short story previous to watching this video. But as you were reading those 17 pages, I remembered a conversation I had with an old friend from high school on this story he was reading in english class. He had told me that in this story, there is a city called Omelas. It is a perfect city where everybody is happy and no one suffers.
No one except one singular child. This child is locked away from all people and suffers miserably everyday so that the rest of the city may live in happiness.
Now most people when they find this out are, for good reason, disgusted. But they choose to go on living their life in Omelas not in blissful ignorance but in acceptance of the truth. However, there are those who are not content with this small sin upon their city. These are the ones who walk away in search of an even better world, or at the very least, reject this one.
The reason I was reminded of this is because of Ivan. Omelas is proof (in this fiction) that even the most perfect of worlds always has suffering. And to me, if I understood the point of the passage correctly (it really may have just flown right over my head), Ivan would've walked away from Omelas. For it is a lie. And I think that is the message of the Frenzied Flame. That you can either blissfully ignore the suffering, embrace it, or upend the whole of it and seek to destroy it.
Awesome video regardless. I would love someone to correct me on my points though if I really just missed the ball on this take.
Without suffering one cannot know happiness.
@@FlyfishermanMike but who does the suffering and why must they suffer? Is that suffering worth the happiness? How much suffering to happiness is proportional? Enough to know the difference? Is a single child forever tormented worth the joy of a city? Should millions slave to serve a noble few? Could it not be argued that the lack of knowledge to suffering or joy be preferable to any amount of physical, mental, and emotional anguish?
@@FlyfishermanMike I would do much to live a life where I felt nothing at all, for once to have a middling day, and not one where I orgasm, and 300 where I cry.
Earthsea was a good book; never read The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas also by Ursula Le Guin
The pinned comment represents what happens to a generation of minds steeped in "cinematic" "universe" analysis. Like you said in your dark souls 3 videos, it's a failure to engage with the metaphorical. Folding Ideas has a great video about this in regards to the movie Annihilation. Just because the Frenzied Flame is an outer god in the context of the literal events of the game doesn't negate its role as a literary metaphor. Really getting tired of "cinemasins" level "criticism" hijacking the conversations we have about art.
edit: great video.
You are 200% right
Yes and no. Metaphor is how you personally choose to interpret say the frenzied flame. Some authors like Tolkien resolutely deny that their stories were allegorical in any way to anything other than the story they were telling. If you choose to put FS "stories" on a certain level that's more a statement of yourself. You might reject the simple character drama of the game's plot and focus on artistic metaphor, but then I'd go even farther and say that's a reflection of yourself and your willingness to overindulge in meandering and vague writing for a videogame.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS Are you implying there is no authorial intent to convey themes through storytelling in fromsoftware games? Do you seriously think that they didnt intend for these allegories to be drawn from their work? You say that Tolkein explicitly denied doing such a thing, but why the hell do you assume that Fromsoftware is the same? To anyone who does even the slightest analysis of their storytelling, it is abundantly clear that these are intentional parallels made to build themes.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS @Alpha Beef
Tbh your both right and wrong, every story told has almost a form of metaphor but also direction, of course story's can be heavily influenced one way or the other but the writers personal life and also philosophical understanding or view can have influence, just like the story itself untied from the writers life created from imagination or told from a source does too.
You can't really have one without the other even a tiny bit creeps in at either spectrum. I also agree that the writers of the game had a vision and deeper meaning to there work and theme, while also agreeing that they leave it open ended and prices missing so that the consumer/viewer has to solve it and form his own understanding and opinion of what they were trying to say, like all good story's creating discussion like us right now on who's right and what means what.
So wouldn't bother arguing when no one is right or wrong completely just opinions in the grand scheme, just glad there's story's being told like this that broaden the imagination and can actually form deeper meaning if you choose to look for it.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS that is pretty much why I like the souls style of storytelling since it leaves room for interpretation and discourse. Now we do know there has been many themes that does return in the games, and you can find those just by the environmental storytelling. Which is pretty cool
Man, hearing finding out that there was a way to end the suffering of not just everyone, but every*thing* in the lands between made me finally feel like there was an ending I WANTED to reach in a Souls Game. Say what you will, but to me, this is the good ending.
I strongly disagree. I think it would be awful to wipe out all of life just because some of it is bad. That said, I find it wonderful that Miyazaki and his team managed to create such a deep world with such genuinely powerful philosophies that for once, there is no one "bad ending". It shows how morality is never absolute but relative to personal values.
I don't even wish for the end of everything, but no one is offering a better alternative!
People are always crying about how evil the frenzied flame ending is, when the best they offer instead is just a new group being privileged and doing nothing about suffering.
To those ignorant people, since you see life beautiful enough to accept suffering, I wish you all the suffering, illness, ugliness, sin and curse in your addiction to life.
The Frenzied Flame ending is no different than what Thanos was trying to accomplish. In every story in which somebody tries to destroy the world/universe to end all suffering, the person responsible is always the villain, no matter how sympathetic they are.
It doesn't matter how you justify it, no one has the right to make that choice on behalf of everyone else.
@@xdragoon2129what the fuck is wrong with you
@@Galamoth06did you ask to be born? No one gets a choice about anything in this life. They're simply handed what they're handed and make due with it. Both Thanos and the frenzied flame are very relatable to me since they accept that what they're doing isn't necessarily good. The whole point is that we're incapable of fixing the world. Thanos chose his way thinking it was best though I do think he had a bit of an ego. But with the frenzied flame, it's really hard for me to argue that it's a morally bad ending in an objective sense. Maybe not the most favorable to most people, but I agree that implicit in the division of the one great is the possibility (some might say inevitability) of disharmony. Of course, those are just media, in real life, people's practical approaches and actions are often quite different. But in my mind, there's no denying that for however bleak or nihilistic the rhetoric of the frenzy flame may sound, there's a solid, logical basis to it's goals and even if I wouldn't myself choose them, I certainly can't begrudge anyone who does, knowing what people can suffer in this world
"The Problem is Life" pretty much sums up the flame of frenzy.
This is such an incredible analysis of the frenzied flame and the philosophy behind it
I always thought of the frenzy flame ending to be reverting to before the "big bang" or Aion, or the Japanese creation myth that literally states, "Before the heavens and earth, all was chaos, limitless, without shape or form". I love mythology so I think it's really cool when games create their own mythologies in their world building like Elden ring and FF; it's peek creativity in my opinion. The concept of people worshiping the destruction of all concepts is so interesting; so while it's considered the bad ending, it's probably my favorite.
This may be one of the boldest, riskiest and yet best UA-cam videos I’ve ever listened to.
I never would have dreamed a video game could have such depth when I started playing on my little NES 36 years ago. Wow. Well done, Ratatoskr.
This story kind of reminds me of dung eaters questline, torturing people beyond the point of death and infecting their corpses to a point their soul is cursed forcing them to be reincarnated as an omen, forcing all men for the rest of time to atone for the torture of the omen in the sewers of the capital.
They're kind of bizarro mirror reflections of each other. The Frenzied Flame wants it all to end because life is suffering. Dung Eater wants it all to *keep going* because life is suffering, and you can add to the sum total of that suffering.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Hey its me again ;). Could this be a reflection of our real world concepts of Nihilism(belief there is no meaning in life) and Absurdism(trying to make our own meaning within life meaninglessness)?
@@ATC43 I have no idea who you are? Sorry. The Frenzied Flame is definitely a reflection in a particular kind of animating nihilism, yes. Though nullificationism is probably a more accurate term, because it's not really positing that life has no meaning, but that whatever meaning to life there is isn't worth the cost of living. I'm genuinely not sure if there's a more specific name for this viewpoint but it would be what most people recognize as nihilism even if I know some philosophy teachers who would disagree with that classification.
But Dung Eater's isn't directly absurdist unless you're getting meta-textual. It's more directly sadistic. But from a metatextual standpoint it's absolutely absurdist since yes it's about creating a kind of negative meaning, but it's also absurd in a direct sense that such a thing came from a character called "The Loathsome Dung Eater."
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe I'm sad I did not leave an impression lol. Anyway, yea I was struggling to think of a term to describe the concept as well which is why I settled on Nihilism. And I agree, sadistically absurd would be a good descriptor for Dung Eater's
This was a very thought provoking video. I hope others get what your going for with this. It did get really morbid at times though, kids suffering really gets to me even if its just hypothetical.
the stories weren't hypothetical :(
@@PixelPoliticsToday don't tell me that :((((((
@@bahhhhumbug9804 He said they were all excerpts from newspapers and historical documents at the end!
And keep in mind they were just a few, select examples. Now just try to imagine for a moment the amount of suffering perpetrated all over the world since time immemorial. Ivan could have continued on for a thousand, thousand years and there still would be no end to it.
Let's be thankful that we can't, in fact, possibly imagine it. Ignorance truly is bliss.
They ain’t hypothetical, lol.
In fact, worse shit is happening as we speak. You think Epstein’s little band was all there was to it? That’s just the tip of the underwater fucking mountain.
I have a friend who did the frenzied ending first and it still baffled me. She was like “how was I supposed to know feeding her grapes was bad?”
perhaps by knowing those are not grapes but eyes? xd
Kinda reminds me of The Cabin in the Woods (ENDING SPOILERS FOR THAT MOVIE)
When the two survivors decide to not complete the ritual and let the old gods destroy the world and start over. They basically decide “if you gotta keep sacrificing people to prevent the end of the world, then it’s better to just let it end.”
I've never read The Brothers Karamazov. That whole excerpt hit me like a truckload of bricks. Lots to think about.
The way true fans like you can create such a vivid description of what I would just see as a faction or ending is amazing.
Watching and listening to this video gave me what I think is a good conclusion about the flame of frenzy. So the flame of frenzy started with the three fingers right? I'm beginning to imagine that the three fingers and the flame of frenzy have this philosophy of life being an issue because the three fingers themselves were born flawed. The Three Fingers wasn't born into a life of luxury like the two fingers were, since they're basically Jehovah's witnesses for the greater will, because it was born with this maddening flame that scorches it which I imagine is incredibly painful for a being like that, the way it writhes and wriggles in it's cutscene kinda gives off the impression that it's still in a lot of pain. The Three Fingers for this reason is against everything that has to do with life in the lands between, because it was born in a way that only allowed it to suffer because what's the point of enjoying life if you were born to suffer, regardless if it were anyone's fault?
I believe that's exactly why they brand you. They burn your skin as a passing of that same pain so that you would comprehend.
@@Alex_Dul yeah exactly, inheriting it is essential having that pain be passed from it's original holder to you because no sane person would want to willingly have most of their body charred.
Also makes Miquella's Needle
seem like a fine form of antidepressant
I really don't think the 3fingers being envious of the 2fingers is something they were going for. I know a lot of anarchists and such hold on to their ideas out of envy but it reads as too simplistic to me.
@@807D14M0ND5 I'm wasn't saying it's envious of the two fingers, i was just drawing the connection that because they're fingers they were probably made by the same thing for the same purpose and the three fingers is the way it is just by sheer circumstance
@@807D14M0ND5 Yes, that's "normie" anarchy, realer anarchy would be closer to Ranni. Since anarchy is only a means to an end not an absolute because once you're gone order will come anyway. The Frenzied Flame is closer to an also normie ideal on Nihliism as well as Anarchism. Burn it all, so all can be one, since I hurt, I must be hurt. Which is kinda ironic and also why it's a great ending path. For one it shows player agency you "linked the fire" and burned the world anew. The reason why it's ironic because to finish the game "normally" means you carved a path through countless foes, you hurt many others especially if you pvp. Which makes the frenzied flame have no deep meaning after all. It's simply fire as fire burns
Gotta agree with that guy on one point in particular.
"I must have justice or I will destroy myself."
I'd be surprised if many people took the time to listen to and understand that full passage. I also thought it was certainly more subtle/tasteful than it could have been. There are many much worse accounts out there to describe the suffering of children. Very nicely done.
From what I understood, Frenzied flame is the state where a being realizes its purpose. Which is none. There is absolutely no reason to go on because deep inside, we all know:
We are a "badly made" specie (The mistake mentionned by Hayata) . Always seeking for more and more. Never satisfied with our current status. A vicious circle that will ALWAYS bring suffering (physical or mental). And to avoid that, we can temporary escape that suffering with the suffering of the others. By being "Superior". In intelligence, in fortune, in success, the list goes on and on. But as a badly made specie, we adapt, and we want more. "Just a little bit more" we often hear.
From facts and books, we can also conclude that the biggest of Humanity is the Boredom. This, for me at least, is one of the biggest source of suffering. Boredom is the actual feeling of feeling useless as, by nature, we get used to pretty much everything we might get an interest into. And so, we ask for more, to distract our mind, as we absolutely DON'T WANT, to be alone with our mind and our thoughts and questions about life's meaning (What should I do now.... at what cost...?)
We are a specie that loves to feel superior to its pair. Therefore, there will ALWAYS people inferiors to others.
Frenzied Flame is, in a way, the consciousness. The consciousness to exist.
An animal, have the ability to simply sleep when it has nothing to do. When it's time to hunt, it will hunt. When it's time travel, it will travel. They have no time to think about their "purpose". Constantly fighting for their life.
As the ultimate Apex specie, we've come to a point where there is no "survival" anymore. We have too much time for ourself. The Boredom is a human and only human thing. The only specie to know and endure this feeling every know and then. An extremely new feeling a the scale of our Planet's life.
Another famous quote that could perfectly describe what is the Frenzied flame is:
Hard times create strong people
Strong people create good times
Good times create weak people
The ultimate vicious circle specific to our specie. The world of Elden Ring, fulfilled with gigantic and magnificent castles and such (Good times)..., Today, there is nothing but ruins (Hard times).
The Frenzied Flame is when someone will have the horror though "What now... What should I do.... At what cost"
Anyway, great video and very instructive! (Am not depressed tho haha. Life will always win I hope!
Big kisses to everyone who had the patience this read this pile of crap X)
Well put!!
I really appreciate this experiment. I only made it through two pages, before I stopped. I have limited time at night to watch UA-cam, and I don't think I'm in the head space to really focus and contemplate on the implications their conversation.
I think I will come back to this when I have more time and more headspace. Thanks for doing something different, I'd like to give it it's fair shake, instead of falling asleep 3 pages in bc I'm not in the right space to hear it out.
"Beasts can't be as cruel as men." Orca laughs as it kills a baby dolphin just for fun by throwing it up into the air over and over.
Amazing breakdown. Honestly one of the best “lore” videos I’ve ever seen. So glad I went with the frenzy ending. Even more I so I embraced the fingers AFTER Melina burned the tree.
I despise melina. Talking about the beauty of life in front of genocided clan of innocent merchants.
Gave me vibes of an Instagram model taking a picture of herself in front of a concentration camp. Absolutely vile.
Absolutely loved this and would love just a deep dive on the other endings and their ideologies. But if this is the only deep dive into the gods = ideologies, it would have been worth it. Great video!
Wow.. at first I was not sure where it was going but it’s like you said. This conversation and experiment really makes one look through the lens of one who has chosen the path of the frenzy.
@Ratatoskr, you really are something. It must have taken a lot of effort to research and present something so heart wrenching. I hope you found your moment of peace to bounce out of the well that is created when researching this.
Mission accomplished. At the end of the vid I didn’t just feel the flame of frenzy, I believed in it. Also many thanks for exposing me to the brothers Karamazov. Sounds like a great read
“It’s not God that I don’t accept, only I most respectfully return Him the ticket.” Hearing you read that last part, gave me cold chills.
I was literally just at the part of your podcast episode where you were talking about this video lol. Can't wait to watch it.
Im sure this has already been said, but this was SO well done. Perfect narration, you did so well relating the stories to the lore that at the end it had me beyond captivated. I had to hold back tears at the end, I shit you not. Many thanks for the video.
There's a lot of similarities between the Flame of Frenzy and what Neon Genesis Evangelion calls "Instrumentality", tho in that instance we're not necessarily talking about ending life just ending the concept of "living". Much like in Elden Ring, Instrumentality is described as returning all living being to one unified state. To break down the barriers, the ego, that separates and therefore inherently alienates each individual. To create a state of perfect empathy and understanding since the very concept of "you" wouldn't exist, "No more fractures. No more births".
Given how influential NGE has been on all of japanese media i wouldn't be surprised if Instrumentality plays at least a small part in the inception of the Flame of Frenzy.
This is why Yura (Shabriri's vessel) offered us, and most certainly Vyke as well, the option to use the flame of frenzy to burn the Erdtree in lieu of our pseudo-maiden Melina. Why force another to suffer when it could be avoided?
Ratatoskr, the lord of Frenzied Flame was the one ending I understood the least before watching this video, and now I'm considering going back to Shabriri to offer him my own grapes. This was a very challenging experience for me, mainly because the tortures described make my stomach turn, but the valuable philosophy behind Ivan's point is not lost on me. Actually, it helps me put to words my ever-present denial of religious beliefs.
Interesting. For me, this little philosophical debate has strengthen my ever-present religious beliefs instead. It may have more to do with what perspective was already there before begin exposed to this discussion and how it merely strengthened said perspective instead challenging it?
@@TheDJman248 yeah, I suppose it's very hard for us (everyone) to challenge our beliefs when consuming media, as we always take in things through our own perspective, which is always biased, right? And honestly I believe I'd be happier if I could believe in something, it's just really impossible for me right now.
Babe wake up, new Ratatoskr video just dropped!
AND HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE FRENZIED FLAME!
I’m up
If you were at all intrigued by the writting, please do yourself the favor of reading The Brothers K. It is one of the greatest novels, you will not regret the effort. Personally, I like Crime and Phnishment better, by the same author, and it’s an easier read, but Brothers K is maybe the most influential
Ahh Crime and Punishment. What a brutal book.
That book alone, if understood, will scare you straight. Lol.
The punishment always follows, even if it's your own conscience doing the punishment. Porfirio Petrovich is such a relentless pursuer lol
This is one of my favorite videos of all time. Full stop.
Bro this was just on my homepage as a suggested vid. I didnt want the horrors of this world forced into my head with 6 inch drill bit. Fr tho phenomenal philosophy exploration. Subscription earned
I'm re-reading Notes from Underground right now. I can't tell you how surprised I was, after finishing the first part and hopping onto UA-cam to watch some Elden Ring content, to see Ratatoskr connecting the frenzied flame to a passage in the Brother's Karamazov. You just became my favorite UA-camr! The themes of great literature are present in droves in Miyazaki era From Soft games. This is not because he is stealing them. It is because he is a visionary artist and they tend to shed a guiding light to their time by reflecting further upon such universal themes.
The life is suffering theme is also (as you have said previously) ubiquitous in Hindu/Yogic and Buddhist thought. In Western Esotericism it is referred to as "The Black School" at times. The end goal of this occult faction is to solve the problem of human suffering and the suffering caused by humans by erasing all life from the universe. It is both horrifying and easily defensible with a deep understanding of the true horror that lies at the heart of all life. Things are a lot more complicated in my mind. An even deeper understanding of human nature will lead you to fight for the continuation of this great game of suffering. We are sublime. That is, we are the concrescence between that which is beautiful and that which is horrifying. Not by chance, but because it is a highly adaptive modality in the proving grounds of evolution. I love us. Even for all of our ugliness. And as such, I reject the frenzied flame. Though it does warm my heart at times...with a cold light.
I don't think we, as humans, are that special.
We are hairless apes with tiny muscles that not only removed ourselves from the food chain, we made it to the moon. It is possible that intelligent life is all over the place, that in the grand scheme of things, we are not special. But relative to anything I have ever seen as a terrestrial ape-man, special is quite the understatement.
We have hit cognitive escape velocity! If by some miracle, we survive long enough, we could seed the entire galaxy with self-replicating nano-robots (universal constructors) that terraform millions of planets around the galaxy by re-arranging matter on the level of re-arranging protons, neutrons and electrons. Then create city infrastructure, then create bio-labs and seed them with terrestrial life (including exact genetic copies of humans who have left the genetic data behind).
This is highly unlikely. We will probably kill ourselves. But the fact that this is a possible outcome of human future history means we are special. If it doesn't, within a greater context, then so be it. I will wait and see if that greater context reveals itself to me.
I get your sentiment though. If you look at what is wrong with us...we are awful. Time will tell.
I think it was the historian James Burke who said that (and this is a paraphrase) optimism is the only way to play a part in a possible positive outcome. The pessimists have already condemned human kind to failure and thus, they remove themselves from the game.
All of the progress we have made from our humble beginnings! It is inspiring. Holy hell if we aren't the little ape that could! We should be throwing feces at each other, lost in the pettiest of ape games. And here we are making progressively more and more incredible things...whilst the vast majority of us still engage in the pettiest of ape games of course but we don't need everyone to be in the right mindset to make progress.
My heart has grown so tired of the world. It does not seek growth, it's stagnant. We sit adrift in a sea of wonder and stars. Yet we fight for sandcastles ruled by aged children. We create problems where there are none to explain why we can't go out into the vastness. We are cowards hiding in our vices, perhaps it's best we dissappear. And yet I cannot extinguish that faint glow of hope. It flickers still, and so I march on. Hoping it may once again ignite within me.
The video was exceptional, but i had to come back and say I absolutely loved the idea of the book excerpt and it was very well executed. I’ve now ordered the book. Thanks!
I was going to ramble on about how this was such an great experiment but really I just have to say, well done. Great content man and I loved every second of this video.
Hey dude, love this video. I imagine it flew over a lot of peoples heads, but it really struck a nerve for me. Well done.
Keep it up 🙂
they fooled us all by making it the "bad" ending
You don't know how excited I am to know there's a reader analyzing Elden Ring 🙌 This was an AMAZING video
I have never read The Brothers Karamazov, and now that I've gotten a taste of it so unexpectedly.. well goodness, that was quite a shock! Fantastic use of literature for framing the Flame of Frenzy.
I must admit, though I do not like the way the Flame of Frenzy chooses to cease the suffering, perhaps that is still for the best in such a world. Man, I came here for lore and left with philosophy. 10/10
I enjoyed the format. Perhaps you could do a bit more summarizing rather than just reading. I definitely enjoy your interpretation of the chaos ending. When I first saw the ending, I was reminded of Zorg from the fifth element attempting to baptize the world in fire to cleanse it
I think you missed the point in the Fifth Element that Zorg was just a tool for the entity of pure evil. He didn't want to destroy the world, he wanted what he always wanted: more money, more profit. When he speaks to the entity of pure evil in the film going by "Mr. Black" he negotiates with it for more money, and it replies that "money is of no importance" while Zorg sweats some sort of evil juice from his forehead. Zorg was an instrument of evil, but didn't share its goals.
But I agree about the video. This is definitely too long for how much of it isn't Ratatoskr's own thoughts.
I feel like he had to quote it whole. I don't think summarizing it will give us the same feeling we have now . Also i just watched the critical drinker talk about the fifth element what a coincidence lol
that's something that needs to be read in its entirety, imo.
"And then more bad stuff happened" wouldn't be enough.
You really need to hear the whole diatribe and the juxtaposition of Alyosha, a believer's, responses.
@@jazeenharal6013 Yeah I don't think the problem is necessarily quoting Dostoevsky in full, it's that there should be more Ratatoskr to elaborate upon it if he is.
It's a proportionality kind of thing. If he had more words to delve into the larger philosophy of not just nihilism but really nullificationism or death cults in general then the length of the quote is fine. But if he's going to be short and to the point, then the quote should be shorter.
It's about writing balance. The thing you're quoting shouldn't be the longest portion of what you have to say about the quote itself.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe aye good point. It was a rather abrupt end
Forgot this was an Elden ring video for a smooth 15-20 min
I now feel like an intellectual, thanks, mate.
"Nothing makes moral sense, so reduce all to nothing"
This was probably the best lore video I've seen for Elden Ring, but maybe that's because I'm a huge Dostoyevsky fan 😀
While I have only heard summaries of "the Brothers Karamazov" along with some of Fyodor Dostoevsky works I have never read any of them. I truly can't not describe how great that reading was. Also Damn that truly describes the Flame of Frenzy's reasoning. When I went to the wiki and started looking up Shabriri and Hyetta's quest I was already astounded by the story. I had merely presumed the flame of frenzy was bad based on youtube comments describing it as, destroys everything, which is true. But even with the great in game storyline I don't think I was quite so empathetic and understanding of the Flame of Frenzy until I saw this video. It really does just put things in a place closer to my headspace/mind. It sort of puts the stakes in my backyard rather than in a hypothetical universe.
Thank you for giving this reading, I will always think of Elden Ring and the Flame of Frenzy along these lines even with any add on lore in future dlc or games. Peace🔥🔥🔥
I couldn't comment on this when I first watched it. I think you were successful in what you were trying to convey. It was very emotional. Thank you for that experience. Wonderful video.
I adore this. It's what comes back to torment my mind often. The injustice of life. No child chose their lot. They just suffer what has been given them. They have no opportunity to take back what was done. They are defenseless. Many don't have any opportunity to avoid pain. To bring life to this world is to bring suffering to this world. Not suffering to you, but to the child with no choice. You can't guarantee it's happiness. You don't know the future. But pain is all but universal. You can only guarantee it's pain.
Ur doing a good job of sneaking in outta nowhere and establishing yourself as a vaati level lore master.
Agree with many of the issues with Vaati's recent video you pointed out in the ygdrassil podcast. It was definitely weird to hear his speculation about certain things stated with such confidence, as if it isn't up for debate
it is an insult to ratatoskr to call him "vaati level"
@@CIOTECHSFX meh I'm pretty confident he recognizes the fact that vaati is pretty prolific on UA-cam. Mentions about as much in the most recent podcast. That's all I mean
@@Acarinn fair point
When you were about to do to the madness experiment you said “first” and then a reeses ad popped up and said “the chicken, or the egg”…. I think i get it now
I tapped onto this video thinking I'd get a casual lore talk and instead my entire worldview was uprooted
"Well yeah, and I'm sad, but at the same time I'm really happy that something could make me feel that sad. It's like, it makes me feel alive, you know? It makes me feel human. And the only way I could feel this sad now is if I felt somethin' really good before. So I have to take the bad with the good, so I guess what I'm feelin' is like a, beautiful sadness. I guess that sounds stupid."
-Butters, a true tarnished
This was not quite what I was expecting, but I thoroughly enjoyed it! Was certainly an interesting way to interpret (and perhaps extrapolate) the representation of The Frenzied Flame in the game. Great video!
Man created the devil by his image is such a cold line daymm
Came to find Elden Ring lore and instead I get a book narrated to me for 25 minutes.
This has been fantastic! Thank you for this new style of storytelling. I think this has been essential in order to make people understand the frenzy flame
This is one of my favorite videos ever made.
"I want you to temporarily become an adherent to the flame of frenzy"
Joke's on you, because it already resonates with me B-)
"now that you understand the flame, I want to make you feel it" oh boy I knew shit was gonna get real. Sub. Immediately subbed
Citing Dostoevsky in a lore video? Did I just discover the best souls lore channel?
The idea of the reading was absolutely genius and unique just take my subscription jeez
the frenzied flame ending was my first enfing, and still is my favorite.
I loved that new segment where you included external sources/reading to help us see the flame differently. Gained a subscriber, keep it up bro.
Are there any audiobooks that you've narrated? Any stories on this channel? The way you told the Karazmov book was very compelling, and has left me hungry for more.
I heard this, understood this, but felt no change. Makes me wonder if I’m already at that despair. I 100% agree with the frenzied flame, and I agree with Ivan
Everyone gets dealt a hand and that's just the way it is. If before birth you were asked if you want to play, even knowing the risks, who wouldn't take that chance? Life has too much good to offer. If the state of things bothers you, slip the less fortunate a couple extra cards when possible, or better yet teach them how to play them right. Do whatever you feel is right to help. Ain't no justice in robbing the happiness of those who have it, or could have it.
@@Sekooma I wouldn’t, I’d have refused life. Life isn’t worth the price paid for it. That hand everyone was dealt, it won’t win you anything, all you can do is lose and watch others lose. People will keep paying some cost over and over but never gain anything of true worth for the price paid. If I had the option to burn the world to ash and wipe out all life from it, I’d take that without a second of hesitation. I’d honestly purge this entire world of everything. Wipe away the entire past, destroy any trace of anything that came before leave nothing but cinders and ruin. I don’t see a single beautiful thing in this world, despite the years I’ve looked. Happiness is less of a thing and more of an ideal people chance, I’ve never met someone truly happy rather people chasing a dream to make them happy. Every day the bill comes due and we pay a little more until we have nothing left and we die.
@@silverdragon147 Sad that you feel that way. More likely though you just haven't found the things with true worth for ya. Maybe look for a loving gf to start. Or any passion.
Just keep digging until both pleasure and suffering become meaningless (or at least small, extremely insignificant) concepts. They are nothing more than a distraction from the real problem - our limits, our inability to fully comprehend things like life.
Ratatoskr this is some of your best work along with your Ds3 "everything rots" video. Bravo.
I listened to this last night to help me sleep, and it got stuck on repeat and I kept listening to it when I woke up and I think it erased my dreams and I'm feeling very nihilistic today.
If anyone needs me I'll be flicking lit matches at a barrel of gasoline.
What’s the song at the end of this video? I recognise it and wanna know what it’s called
It's funny that the moment you mentioned The Brothers Karamazov I knew exactly what excerpt you were going to read. From a Dostoievsky fan to another, this was a great video.
This turned into a brother's karamasa audio book and I never thought I would like it
I know that multiple NPCs refer to the Frenzied Flame as chaos incarnate and your character is then referred to as the Lord of Chaos but the ending you get really seems like the exact opposite of chaos. What truly is more chaotic, the wants and needs of millions of individuals being acted out in and upon the world along with new life and death taking place or all life and all of existence being subsumed into one essence? Life in the Lands Between and in our world is much more chaotic than the singularity of a black hole. When everything exists as one there can be no chaos as there are no conflicting wills being acted out upon one another. All are one.
I have the same view and still don't understand why chaos is brought up at all (by shabriri)
From my (very limited) understanding, Chaos in a lot of mythologies is the primordial state of existence - a formless void in which all the elements are jumbled together which becomes ordered by the Gods/whatever divine being.
Shamelessly stolen from the Wikipedia page on the concept:
"Before the ocean and the earth appeared- before the skies had overspread them all-
the face of Nature in a vast expanse was naught but Chaos uniformly waste.
It was a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight;
and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap." - Ovid (Metamorphoses)
The Frenzied Flame ending returns to this state.
How does a mother justify giving life to a child whom she has ultimately sentenced to death?
Well fuck, i don't have an option but to bring the flame of frenzy to our world, that story broke me