You are finally referring to the Byzantine empire but why insist on terms such as " Romans" and "east" and "west" after 400? Is it a form of satisfying modern trends?
One has to take into consideration not only today's inflation, but the true value of gold back in the day. A single Roman nomisma in Medieval Europe could buy an entire pig or a decent horse, a few acres of crops, a decent quality sword or armor, even a small parcel of land. A single gold coin in medieval times could change your entire life and that of your family. That was the true value of gold 1,000 years ago. 🥇
I liked the "sticks of butter" as a unit, I can easily imagine a stick of butter. Or I can go to my fridge and look at one! 240k sticks is a lot of butter tho.
But war may have more lasting results, even economicaly.And then there is the no tangible factors like prestige and signaling weakness. Hard to tell, even with hindsight bias, if it was the proper move.
@@leonardobroza6298 well, think about this, the political and hierarchy structure of foreign military power, empires that relay military expansion to acquire wealth. I give you money, you spend this money, who can you spend it on? Me! Every cent I give you, you give right back through trade and tariff, if you do not develop trade good and invest in military, where do you get the goods. Let’s say you decided to actually wipe me out as a tribe/martial power, where do you get your trade and luxury now? Who will you fight to gain prestige to justify your martial power? How will your noble/military class react without wealth and tribute? What differentiate you to a commoner without violence? And why should a commoner listen to you if you utterly ruined their economic prospects? If you completely ruined border towns, where do you trade with new bandits and other nomads raiding the area? Is the same thing with Song and Han dynasty, just look at XiongNu empire and Han empire, decline. Song on the other hand lasted 800 years.
“In 562 AD, during the reign of Justinian I, the Byzantine Empire agreed to pay the Sassanid Persian Empire an annual tribute of 30,000 solidi (Byzantine gold coins) as part of the “Fifty-Year Peace” treaty. This tribute was intended to prevent Persian attacks and maintain peace between the two empires, showing how valuable diplomacy and financial agreements were in ancient geopolitics. The amount of tribute sometimes fluctuated depending on the terms of specific treaties, but 30,000 solidi was a significant sum used in one of the notable agreements.”
@Techtalk2030 Wow, Persians could have invaded Byzantine, but instead the other branch of the Hun would become the Turks. The rest would form Hungary !!!
They also had an enormous population to draw from, more advanced science and chemistry, and during the Macedonian dynasty they had by far the most advanced military tactics. With all those superpowers, not just money, it's no wonder they lasted 1000 years.
I wish this was a long video but its understandable why it was shortened. In addition given that they spent 3.8 billion in tribute is insane even though there is so much more. Now I'm just thinking about all the money they needed to pay their troops and handing out favours in gold. It's just wild how much gold the byzantine's had in their coffers over the hundreds of years. Edit: woah thanks for the 105 likes! I wasn't expecting this.
Something to keep in mind with these tribute amounts is that a not insignificant amount would have come back to the Byzantine economy by virtue of being the end of the Silk Road, as noted at the beginning of the video. Precious metals were one of the primary exports of Europe to the East, in exchange for all the "Oriental" (as they knew them) goods flowing to the West. So, with the exception of tribute paid to the Sassanid & Caliphate (which were offset somewhat by tribute flowing back, depending on the recent fortunes of war), tribute that was paid out would - at least in part - flow back into Constantinople in time. Not that this eliminates these tributes as enormous expenses, of course. Money that was paid out of imperial coffers that came back in trade was only taxed at a fraction back into the coffers, so it was always at a net loss. I'm just noting that these tributes did have a stimulating effect on the Byzantine economy, throughout the life of the empire.
@@owenb8636Equiping, feeding and supplying armies for hundreds of miles years at a time was 10x more expensive than Tribute. Nikephoros Phocas for example reconquered Cilicia and northern Syria but was still unpopular because the gains in the short run did not pay for themselves and had to raise taxes to cover his constant warring,
It is also interesting to note that the Byzantines never spoke of tributes to their enemies, but of “gifts”. In the Roman self-image, with its formal claim to world domination, it would not have worked to submit to another power.
@@Bruce4lmightyexactly and you can’t call yourself sovereign. You have an overlord now. You are basically an autonomous vassal state paying off your attackers.
Interesting to think how much the west and east would have mirrored one another had Rome not fallen. Currently the west is unified again under the United States.
One suggestion: When talking about amounts of money, it would be nice to also compare them to yearly revenues if possible. X thousand pounds of gold can sound like a lot, but whether it actually is, depends on how much gold actually comes into the treasury that year.
MEDIEVAL PRICELIST FRENCH CROWN:24,000 POUNDS A YEAR. ENGLISH CROWN:30,000 POUNDS A YEAR. MEDIEVAL PEASANT:2/3 POUNDS A YEAR. MEDIEVAL KNIGHTS:20 POUNDS A YEAR but some made 40 pounds a year. Medieval blacksmith:15/16 pounds a year.
@@carlosvalle612 the medieval era last roughly 1000 years. Specifically which century are we talking about? England of the 8th century was not the same as England of the 15th century.
@@zippyparakeet1074 can I send you data from 4 different lists of medieval prices? EDICT OF MAXIMUM PRICES from Roman era. ANGLO SAXON price list[anglo saxon byrnie mail sirt 44 shillings]. MEDIEVAL PRICE LIST. [100 SHILLINGS for mail(I think for full suit of mail)]
@@carlosvalle612 Revenue of the english crown ans the french crown varied a lot depending on the reign of which king, at what point in their reign and there was a difference between ordinary revenue, and revenue during exceptional circumstances. Also keep in mind that the weight of a medeival pound was not the same as a roman pound, and the english pound did not weigh the same as the french livre. All that being said the 24,000 pound revenue for the french Kings is only possible for maybe Louis VII, but from the time of Phillip II onwards the french Kings were definitely richer than the English Kings.
how was it a good policy, did the Huns and Avars stop with their attacks once they got paid?No, they continued with their raids and demanded even more tribute. They were stopped only when they were destroyed. Giving money only makes the enemy stronger, richer and more confident to attack you, while you get poorer and weaker. The ERE survived only because of having a well defended capital (Constantinople) and richer provinces.
@@firefoxlani7475 Bribing the enemies avoided disasters on the scale of Adrianople and Manzikert. The ERE could ill afford to gamble with its military, with so many opponents on all sides. The WRE survived the Huns only thanks to the brilliance of Flavius Aetius, but the Battle of Chalons could have been a death knell of the WRE right then and there.
@@ElBanditoWRE survived thanks to gold not Aetius, a year after the stalemate at Chalons Attila invaded the Italian peninsula sacking cities like Aquilea & Ravenna. WRE who had lost much of it's manpower at Chalons had no other choice than paying Huns off, diverting them to the Sassanian lands
The Eastern Roman Empire did more than just paying tribute to potential adversaries. The empire had established what was considered the first intelligence agency known as Bureau of Barbarians. It gathered important information regarding potential adversaries and allies. Language, culture and history of various people the empire encountered were gathered and studied. Every potential adversary and ally have adversaries and allies of their own and the empire also reach out to them. This creates a check and balance of power between the empire and its allies and adversaries. It is better to retain existing adversaries than destroying them as their destruction often pave the way for a much more dangerous adversaries to emerge. Using military strength to deal with threats is only done as a final resort.
@@ElBandito I understand that sometimes it is better to pay off your enemies for a short time in order to avoid a two-front war. But once peace is achieved in one front, it should be dealt with the other enemy properly. Adrianople and Manzikert would have happened sooner or later, paying your enemies will just delay it, not prevent it. Instead, those disasters occurred because the military was neglected and the military response was delayed. The Avars and Huns lived by those payments, they become stronger thanks to those payments. You could see after Marcian stopped the payments to Attila and raided his homelands, how much prestige did the Huns lost and were destroyed within a short time after the death of Attila. You could see how much were the Avars destroyed and in the brink of destruction after Maurice waged war on their territory and stopped the tribute.
@@Adventeuan I mean, no, the Empire had lost most of Italy and parts of Armenia by that point and was under the disastrous reign of Constantine Doukas.
When the empire pays, it's a subsidy. When it receives, it's tribute. Paying a subsidy is often significantly cheaper than paying for a war, especially when you include the costs of raids, plunder, and sacks. They could often get the money back through trade, as well. Subsidies also mean the empire isn't creating a vacuum which some new and unknown threat will inevitably fill.
Scrolled a lot to see if this was mentioned and surprised it was not brought up. Tha barbarians would often use the money to buy Byzantine manufactured goods. The byzantines would then essentially collect this money back in taxes. So less a tribute and more a subsidy to quite the borders while their attention was placed elsewhere. Like during Justinians reign.
Until the enemies fully conquered the Anatolia and playing divide and conquer with Byzantines thus weakening their military financially psychologically militarily then voila 1453
This video reminds me a lot about the 3rd scenario in the Attila the Hun campaign in Age of Empires II: The Conquerors, where you as the player need to stockpile 10k Roman gold and the blue AI player (Constantinople) is constantly complaining about you extorting them. Sweet memories.
Looking back at my Age of Empires days, it’s crazy how much is out there to learn (even from K&G alone!) without reading a book. When I was young, reading was the only way to get quality information on history without waiting for a watered-down version to pop on Television every couple of months. It really is a dream come true.
All of that gold speaks really well of the Byzantines for it shows that their empire was very prosperous, which in turn means that it was well administrated , something that is admirable anywhere but even more for those times .
I wonder how long the Byzantine empire would've lasted without the constant civil war and palace coups 246,000 sticks of butter? Is this man a fan of Mount and blade
Fascinating. You must wonder, if they had instead invested those bribes into their military power and defence infrastructure, would they have negated the very same existential threat?
Justinian's wars reconquering the former Western Roman Empire provinces, tributes to the Sasanian Empire, and Avars, left Eastern Rome almost financially exhausted. When Justin II assumed power after the death of Justinian in 565 AD, he stopped paying tribute to the Sasanian Empire due to a lack of money, and war resumed between both empires. Tiberius II became Roman Emperor after the death of Justin II. And Tiberius gave gold away to placate the soldiers and aristocrats in the empire. When Tiberius II died in 582 AD, Maurice inherited a bankrupt empire. And that played a role in being overthrown by Phocas in 602 AD, and, Maurice was executed by him.
It would be interesting to get a glimpse of the scale of those payments compared to the gdp of the empire. How much of the income of the empire went to tributes? That would be a fascinating insight
Paying for peace (Danegeld) is usually a bad bargain, however Constantinople was able to collect taxes in their unravaged frontier provinces and tax trade caravans that typically avoid war zones like the plague. If the enemy uses the tribute collected to purchase Byzantine trade goods, the money comes right back into imperial coffers. Also, coinage was often debased from time to time.
Oghuric tribes like the Huns, Kutrigurs, Utigurs, Avars, & Bulgars continuously milked the Eastern Roman cow from the 5th to the 9th century CE, a 5 century long burden for the Roman treasury
And the 5 centuries after that it was the turn of Kipchak and Oghuz tribes like Pechenegs, Cumans, Seljuks and Ottomans who fined ERE from the 10th century up to it's last breath
@@nenenindonuThe Byzantines did not pay tribute to any of those powers except the Ottomans during that time. Alp Arslan famously demanded a large tribute from Romanos but the dynasty that usurped him never actually payed the tribute. The Previous treaty in the 1040s did not require tribute either. It was the opposite with Seljuk Rum meanwhile where it had to pay a tribute to Manuel Komnenos until it cancelled it with the conquest of the Danishmends. The Pechenegs were given tribute when they were in the steppe outside Crimea in the 10th century but never received any when they settled in Wallachia and Bulgaria and were ultimately destroyed by the Byzantines. Tribute was never paid to the Cumans, multiple Komnenoi Emperor personally went out to defeat their raids in the Balkans. They were only given one big initial sum to help Byzantium defeat the Pechenegs in the 1090s. The Ottomans are the actual people on this list that multiple Byzantine Emperors had to continuously pay tribute too and indeed were an actual vassal to the Ottomans at times.
Prokopios rigidly accuses of the north politics of the Justinian regime in his Secret History; his book of Wars also contains the same dissatisfaction without directly targeting Justinian.1 As usual, “although they (Kutrigurs) receive many gifts from the emperor every year, they still cross the Danube River and overrun the emperor’s land, being both at peace and at war with the Romans.” (Prokopios, 2014, p. 471)
ERE’s brother, WRE be like: so uh yeah…mind giving us some coins? Our North African frontiers are collapsing, political turmoil, lack of recruitment, economy going to hell, barbarian invasions from the northern borders, east and, far west in the British isle. Please brother?
How much gold was extracted by the Byzantines from various powers? The Byzantines were expert negotiators. It wasn't always the Byzantines giving tribute.
The tribute's in 6th and 7th century was paid in lightweight solidus(nomisma) of 20 or 22 siliquae (one siliqua was 1/24 of a solidus) You are an excellent history chanel
@@DannySikkemawhat are you on about? You are speaking as though it is some clearly deliniated period historically. While the Comnenian Dynasty is deemed to have ended in 1185, this an utterly academic division. In every other respect, the Angeloi *were* Komnenian, identified themselves as such and the state continued to be operated in the same manner. Isaac II Angelus was the grandson of Alexius Comnenus, his uncles were Doukas, and later descendants of the Angeloi who ruled in Epirus would carry the surname "Angelus-Comnenus-Doukas".
@@tylerellis9097 I've come to sympathise with him. He was dealt a bad hand due to the Komnenian systems breakdown and a lot of his stupid decisions are more understandable through that lens.
Awesome video I was thinking I would love to see a video showing later crusades and subsequent reconquest of Jerusalem to the fall of Jerusalem to kwaresmians (butchered spelling sorry) and fall of acre and all mainland crusader states.
The more Byzantine Roman videos the better. If you your writers haven't read it i recommend Anthony Kaldellis’s book Romanland: Ethnicity and Empire in Byzantium, it will be useful in your future videos. It discusses about the Byzantine Roman identity, who was included and who was excluded etc.
Has anyone noticed that Byzantine maps always show their territory in purple, while rome is always red? Is there a historical reason for this besides the 'total war' games?
I don't think there is any particular reason. Roman Republic is probably getting red because of the legionaries, Eastern Rome because of the purple being the colour only the emperors were allowed to wear
Yes, but there is no logic to it, I guess. For instance, we use green for the Caliphate, but generally they didn't have a flag, and the Umayyads liked white, while the Abbasids black.
@@KingsandGenerals to be clear, I'm not complaining and I love that game series and @kingsandgenerals . Just an interesting observation of historiography
The direct conversion of current gold to the US dollar belies the actual spending power of the coins in the period in question when compared to the spending power of the US dollar today. These were enormous sums of specie from the internal economy and still significant anywhere in Eurasia at the time.
Correct. Unfortunately it is impossible to quantify it, but, yes, in a world where the most expensive luxury was like silk, a billion bought much more proportionally
Armies are a huge cost so paying their enemies to achieve the same objective that the army has is logical. It’s likely the stipends paid to enemies presented a saving based on the cost of funding an army sizeable enough to defend their interests.
Thanks again Kings and Generals! = Love your works!!! 👇 Next! 😊 Can you do the Eastern Roman empire's GDP in possible calculations estimated during its height of power under Justinian the great pretty please!? Can you do the Roman Empire's tribute system both ways next please? = how it gained tribute from its enemies, allies and paid during its crisis eras to prevent tribes from attacking it? Can you do the Roman Empire's GDP at its height based on historic notes known of best calculated peak please? = And how it got so rich over the many centuries. Can you do the Eastern Roman empire's possible GDP during Basil the 2nd Please? Can you show the rise and fall in changes to the city of Rome in scenery in buildings over its ages from pre-history during its foundations, to Rome as a kingdom to republic in becoming an empire later on as it expanded in scenery + When the walls were built in detail in so many famous buildings during the conquests and other later emperors & before the Western empire's fall + to the era leading up to the Eastern Roman reconquests and after... to its ruined state during the medieval ages & before the modern era? Can you show the rise and fall in changes to the city of Constantinople in scenery in buildings over its ages from pre-history during Greece from its foundations, to Rome to Byzantium becoming Constantinople + When the walls were built and later Justinian building so many buildings during the reconquests + under Basil the 2nd and other later emperors + to the era leading up to the 4th crusade and after... to its ruined state during the fall to the Ottomans please? Can you do all the calculated vids of what was the populations of the Roman kingdom + republic, empire and eastern half during their peak of power please? Can you do a decline vid about how & why the Roman Republic eventfully declined in & with corruption and eventfully fell in reforms in becoming the empire in showing all the major events in history that led to its downfall to empire with the people involved? Could you do a full trade vid of just how far the Romans reached around the world as merchants from one end to the other, along with what resources they all exchanged and income from all that in GDP? Much appreciated if you do eventfully as projects for 2025 coming up throughout the whole year ahead... and would love to be a part of it more as an advisor as a part timer as well. Please respond if you can, do or will... I'll always be around if interested for us fans to see of all this? Much appreciated for all this... thanks again for your almost decade of hard work doing this channel in series... Keep up the Great Work! 😎😉 Do it all for the us fans, do it... For natural history of the past that really is amazing for all! Your thoughts in possibilities? Hashtag/#: It's Eastern Roman Empire, not Byzantine Empire! 💜😅💢
The more you concentrate wealth in the imperial metropole the more strongly those in the periphery of an empire are drawn there (as migrants, traders or conquerors). Whether conscious or unconscious, I think this distribution of wealth away from the imperial core is intrinsically and directly linked to the longevity of the Byzantine Empire.
i feel like simple multiplication isn't enough. i know there isnt a clear way to calculate inflation since those ages, but considering the gold supply being much lower than today, the actual cost is much more than 4 billion.
I guess my next question would be: how on earth had the bizantines so much money to throw around but declined. In not saying its imposible, but I think I need some kind of frame of reference to see how mucho of their wealth it took, how it compared to the sassanids or the avars and such questiones. Very cool video
In the mid-5th century, during Attila's reign, the Eastern Roman Empire was under significant pressure from the Huns. In order to maintain peace and avoid military conflict, the Eastern Romans agreed to pay him tribute. This was a common practice of the time, where weaker states would pay tribute to more powerful invaders to secure peace or protection. The relationship was complex, as both sides engaged in negotiations and occasional conflicts.
You've got some truly great artwork throughout BTW Kings & Generals, along with Invicta from every single image you all make together with your artists over there amongst your crew & team. Can you please screenshot all of them so we can appreciate them online to enjoy & view as wallpaper all throughout... pretty please? 🤞🙏 You've had so many over the last few years or more now... it would be great to enjoy them all to the fullest having them as background images on our computers to appreciate or as posters in our houses if possible printed to buy or upload. Could you go back through your vids from now on with your staff and please screenshot every last one of them so we can do so ourselves if wished as a request from us fans? And before you ever ask which ones... the answer is yes = which? = All of them! = Every last scene screenshot from one after another from all vids' beginning to end... if you can pretty please in your free times? Much appreciated from all us fans if you all can? 😎😉 Hashtag/#: Kings and Generals... Forever!!! 👍✔💪❤
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Not the Angelos family for sure, I believe you wanted to say the Comnenos.
You are finally referring to the Byzantine empire but why insist on terms such as " Romans" and "east" and "west" after 400? Is it a form of satisfying modern trends?
@@themisvoul1045 synonymous
you forget inflation and interests
One has to take into consideration not only today's inflation, but the true value of gold back in the day. A single Roman nomisma in Medieval Europe could buy an entire pig or a decent horse, a few acres of crops, a decent quality sword or armor, even a small parcel of land. A single gold coin in medieval times could change your entire life and that of your family. That was the true value of gold 1,000 years ago. 🥇
"The same weight in gold as 38 fully grown grizzly bears." K&G confirmed American
We are not, but decided to be funny
You don't have to be one of us to use certified freedom units. It helps us understand.
@@luciusdomitiusaurelianus8826 Yeah you need all the help you can get lmao.
Kings, Generals & Bears.
I liked the "sticks of butter" as a unit, I can easily imagine a stick of butter. Or I can go to my fridge and look at one!
240k sticks is a lot of butter tho.
Eastern Rome to its enemies : "Im gonna pay you 100 dollars to fuck off"
First thing I thought of haha, theyre the embodiment of that meme.
And if that didn't work they paid someone $150 to make them fvck off
They are paying for not to get fudged😂
Pretty much
more like "Pls dont kill me, im gonna give you 100 dollar every week"
Short answer: War is much more expensive
Or the Roman lives were more valued as the barbars
But war may have more lasting results, even economicaly.And then there is the no tangible factors like prestige and signaling weakness. Hard to tell, even with hindsight bias, if it was the proper move.
@@leonardobroza6298 well, think about this, the political and hierarchy structure of foreign military power, empires that relay military expansion to acquire wealth. I give you money, you spend this money, who can you spend it on? Me! Every cent I give you, you give right back through trade and tariff, if you do not develop trade good and invest in military, where do you get the goods. Let’s say you decided to actually wipe me out as a tribe/martial power, where do you get your trade and luxury now? Who will you fight to gain prestige to justify your martial power? How will your noble/military class react without wealth and tribute? What differentiate you to a commoner without violence? And why should a commoner listen to you if you utterly ruined their economic prospects? If you completely ruined border towns, where do you trade with new bandits and other nomads raiding the area? Is the same thing with Song and Han dynasty, just look at XiongNu empire and Han empire, decline. Song on the other hand lasted 800 years.
Not really. This was just cowardice that exponentially prolonged the demands from their enemies since it was a clear sign of weakness.
In short term. Long term it removes a threat.
Byzantines are the Batman of ancient empires. Their superpower is money
Their....
“In 562 AD, during the reign of Justinian I, the Byzantine Empire agreed to pay the Sassanid Persian Empire an annual tribute of 30,000 solidi (Byzantine gold coins) as part of the “Fifty-Year Peace” treaty. This tribute was intended to prevent Persian attacks and maintain peace between the two empires, showing how valuable diplomacy and financial agreements were in ancient geopolitics.
The amount of tribute sometimes fluctuated depending on the terms of specific treaties, but 30,000 solidi was a significant sum used in one of the notable agreements.”
They're what happens when imperialism pulls an UNO reverse on you.
@Techtalk2030 Wow, Persians could have invaded Byzantine, but instead the other branch of the Hun would become the Turks. The rest would form Hungary !!!
They also had an enormous population to draw from, more advanced science and chemistry, and during the Macedonian dynasty they had by far the most advanced military tactics. With all those superpowers, not just money, it's no wonder they lasted 1000 years.
3:35 "an alliance proposal, which the romans can purchase in yearly tribute in gold." - the OG peace as a subscription service.
The Huns' peace subscription would put all our modern services to shame =)))
11:40 "21,690 pounds, or 48 Shaquille O'Neals"
💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
Noticed that lololol
racist
@@Parias22 which race was targeted?
@penzorphallos3199 the humans 😂
i thought you was joking he really said it hahahahha dammmm
I wish this was a long video but its understandable why it was shortened. In addition given that they spent 3.8 billion in tribute is insane even though there is so much more. Now I'm just thinking about all the money they needed to pay their troops and handing out favours in gold. It's just wild how much gold the byzantine's had in their coffers over the hundreds of years.
Edit: woah thanks for the 105 likes! I wasn't expecting this.
The Byzantine economy probably deserves a good look. Maybe down the line
@@KingsandGenerals I believe it really does!
It's heartbreaking to think how many armies that could have paid for but they just used it to buy time instead
Something to keep in mind with these tribute amounts is that a not insignificant amount would have come back to the Byzantine economy by virtue of being the end of the Silk Road, as noted at the beginning of the video. Precious metals were one of the primary exports of Europe to the East, in exchange for all the "Oriental" (as they knew them) goods flowing to the West. So, with the exception of tribute paid to the Sassanid & Caliphate (which were offset somewhat by tribute flowing back, depending on the recent fortunes of war), tribute that was paid out would - at least in part - flow back into Constantinople in time.
Not that this eliminates these tributes as enormous expenses, of course. Money that was paid out of imperial coffers that came back in trade was only taxed at a fraction back into the coffers, so it was always at a net loss. I'm just noting that these tributes did have a stimulating effect on the Byzantine economy, throughout the life of the empire.
@@owenb8636Equiping, feeding and supplying armies for hundreds of miles years at a time was 10x more expensive than Tribute.
Nikephoros Phocas for example reconquered Cilicia and northern Syria but was still unpopular because the gains in the short run did not pay for themselves and had to raise taxes to cover his constant warring,
It is also interesting to note that the Byzantines never spoke of tributes to their enemies, but of “gifts”. In the Roman self-image, with its formal claim to world domination, it would not have worked to submit to another power.
The China strategy
like USA pays tribute to China in terms of debts , so that China will not invade
The Byzantines operated in a manner similar to Chinese imperial dynasties. Truly epitome of civilization
Very much like the Song Dynasty in China.
It’s ’protection money’. The concept and practice of paying for protection has existed since the dawn of time
@@Bruce4lmighty not just the tribute dude.
Marry your daughters to Your enemies. Court intrigue. Eunuchs
@@Bruce4lmightyexactly and you can’t call yourself sovereign. You have an overlord now. You are basically an autonomous vassal state paying off your attackers.
Interesting to think how much the west and east would have mirrored one another had Rome not fallen. Currently the west is unified again under the United States.
One suggestion: When talking about amounts of money, it would be nice to also compare them to yearly revenues if possible. X thousand pounds of gold can sound like a lot, but whether it actually is, depends on how much gold actually comes into the treasury that year.
MEDIEVAL PRICELIST FRENCH CROWN:24,000 POUNDS A YEAR. ENGLISH CROWN:30,000 POUNDS A YEAR. MEDIEVAL PEASANT:2/3 POUNDS A YEAR. MEDIEVAL KNIGHTS:20 POUNDS A YEAR but some made 40 pounds a year. Medieval blacksmith:15/16 pounds a year.
@@carlosvalle612 the medieval era last roughly 1000 years. Specifically which century are we talking about? England of the 8th century was not the same as England of the 15th century.
@@zippyparakeet1074 can I send you data from 4 different lists of medieval prices? EDICT OF MAXIMUM PRICES from Roman era. ANGLO SAXON price list[anglo saxon byrnie mail sirt 44 shillings]. MEDIEVAL PRICE LIST. [100 SHILLINGS for mail(I think for full suit of mail)]
Charlemagne list of grain prices being capped during a famine. The Frank's use Solidi coins of silver/gold?
@@carlosvalle612 Revenue of the english crown ans the french crown varied a lot depending on the reign of which king, at what point in their reign and there was a difference between ordinary revenue, and revenue during exceptional circumstances. Also keep in mind that the weight of a medeival pound was not the same as a roman pound, and the english pound did not weigh the same as the french livre.
All that being said the 24,000 pound revenue for the french Kings is only possible for maybe Louis VII, but from the time of Phillip II onwards the french Kings were definitely richer than the English Kings.
Clearly it was a good policy, judging by the fact the ERE survived over 1000 years...
how was it a good policy, did the Huns and Avars stop with their attacks once they got paid?No, they continued with their raids and demanded even more tribute.
They were stopped only when they were destroyed.
Giving money only makes the enemy stronger, richer and more confident to attack you, while you get poorer and weaker.
The ERE survived only because of having a well defended capital (Constantinople) and richer provinces.
@@firefoxlani7475 Bribing the enemies avoided disasters on the scale of Adrianople and Manzikert. The ERE could ill afford to gamble with its military, with so many opponents on all sides. The WRE survived the Huns only thanks to the brilliance of Flavius Aetius, but the Battle of Chalons could have been a death knell of the WRE right then and there.
@@ElBanditoWRE survived thanks to gold not Aetius, a year after the stalemate at Chalons Attila invaded the Italian peninsula sacking cities like Aquilea & Ravenna. WRE who had lost much of it's manpower at Chalons had no other choice than paying Huns off, diverting them to the Sassanian lands
The Eastern Roman Empire did more than just paying tribute to potential adversaries. The empire had established what was considered the first intelligence agency known as Bureau of Barbarians. It gathered important information regarding potential adversaries and allies. Language, culture and history of various people the empire encountered were gathered and studied. Every potential adversary and ally have adversaries and allies of their own and the empire also reach out to them. This creates a check and balance of power between the empire and its allies and adversaries. It is better to retain existing adversaries than destroying them as their destruction often pave the way for a much more dangerous adversaries to emerge. Using military strength to deal with threats is only done as a final resort.
@@ElBandito I understand that sometimes it is better to pay off your enemies for a short time in order to avoid a two-front war.
But once peace is achieved in one front, it should be dealt with the other enemy properly.
Adrianople and Manzikert would have happened sooner or later, paying your enemies will just delay it, not prevent it.
Instead, those disasters occurred because the military was neglected and the military response was delayed.
The Avars and Huns lived by those payments, they become stronger thanks to those payments.
You could see after Marcian stopped the payments to Attila and raided his homelands, how much prestige did the Huns lost and were destroyed within a short time after the death of Attila.
You could see how much were the Avars destroyed and in the brink of destruction after Maurice waged war on their territory and stopped the tribute.
I love the Grizzly bear/Shaquille O'Neil exchange rate.
The vast wealth of Eastern Rome, the lifeblood of the empire and the beating heart of medieval Europe.
@@Bern_il_CinqThe dark ages is largely a myth.
@@Bern_il_CinqMedieval Byzantium peaked during the High Middle Ages
@@Bern_il_Cinq Dark Ages are a myth and have been disproven by all real historians.
@@tylerellis9097
Peaked in 1066
@@Adventeuan I mean, no, the Empire had lost most of Italy and parts of Armenia by that point and was under the disastrous reign of Constantine Doukas.
When the empire pays, it's a subsidy. When it receives, it's tribute.
Paying a subsidy is often significantly cheaper than paying for a war, especially when you include the costs of raids, plunder, and sacks. They could often get the money back through trade, as well. Subsidies also mean the empire isn't creating a vacuum which some new and unknown threat will inevitably fill.
Scrolled a lot to see if this was mentioned and surprised it was not brought up. Tha barbarians would often use the money to buy Byzantine manufactured goods. The byzantines would then essentially collect this money back in taxes. So less a tribute and more a subsidy to quite the borders while their attention was placed elsewhere. Like during Justinians reign.
Until the enemies fully conquered the Anatolia and playing divide and conquer with Byzantines thus weakening their military financially psychologically militarily then voila 1453
This video reminds me a lot about the 3rd scenario in the Attila the Hun campaign in Age of Empires II: The Conquerors, where you as the player need to stockpile 10k Roman gold and the blue AI player (Constantinople) is constantly complaining about you extorting them. Sweet memories.
I'm still in office, and now suddenly have the urge to play that campaign again lol
Looking back at my Age of Empires days, it’s crazy how much is out there to learn (even from K&G alone!) without reading a book. When I was young, reading was the only way to get quality information on history without waiting for a watered-down version to pop on Television every couple of months. It really is a dream come true.
How many currency formats do you want in one video?
K&G: Yes
Shaq killed me...
Informative and intersting video.
Without a doubt, more of this kind of content would help us understand economic sides of clashes between countries at that time. Great job!
All of that gold speaks really well of the Byzantines for it shows that their empire was very prosperous, which in turn means that it was well administrated , something that is admirable anywhere but even more for those times .
Giving shiny yellow rocks to save the lives of your people seems like a worthy trade to me
I wonder how long the Byzantine empire would've lasted without the constant civil war and palace coups
246,000 sticks of butter? Is this man a fan of Mount and blade
So _that's_ what he was referencing. I couldn't figure it out.
Best history channel out there
Try mark felton
@@dawnmathis2659 I’m a fan of him as well but kings and generals is more visually stimulating
@@B-Drewyeah stimulating for people that are addicted to colourful little squares flying over a map
@@papageitaucher618 yeah or people who like to have clear visual representation of what is being talked about
@@B-Drew in other words people that are not very good at thinking
15:53 is that it?
Already watched this but I'll watch it again
Excellent video 📹
They waited for their enemies to decline, took their lands and got back their wealth.
Thanks!
Fascinating. You must wonder, if they had instead invested those bribes into their military power and defence infrastructure, would they have negated the very same existential threat?
Very informative ❤
Not to be that guy, but you made pretty bad typo at 14:20 . The ANGELOS dynasty definitely didn't receive tribute from anyone.
Justinian's wars reconquering the former Western Roman Empire provinces, tributes to the Sasanian Empire, and Avars, left Eastern Rome almost financially exhausted. When Justin II assumed power after the death of Justinian in 565 AD, he stopped paying tribute to the Sasanian Empire due to a lack of money, and war resumed between both empires. Tiberius II became Roman Emperor after the death of Justin II. And Tiberius gave gold away to placate the soldiers and aristocrats in the empire. When Tiberius II died in 582 AD, Maurice inherited a bankrupt empire. And that played a role in being overthrown by Phocas in 602 AD, and, Maurice was executed by him.
It would be interesting to get a glimpse of the scale of those payments compared to the gdp of the empire. How much of the income of the empire went to tributes? That would be a fascinating insight
Paying for peace (Danegeld) is usually a bad bargain, however Constantinople was able to collect taxes in their unravaged frontier provinces and tax trade caravans that typically avoid war zones like the plague. If the enemy uses the tribute collected to purchase Byzantine trade goods, the money comes right back into imperial coffers. Also, coinage was often debased from time to time.
We're measuring things in Shaqs now. The big diesel would have been a force on the battlefield
Oghuric tribes like the Huns, Kutrigurs, Utigurs, Avars, & Bulgars continuously milked the Eastern Roman cow from the 5th to the 9th century CE, a 5 century long burden for the Roman treasury
And the 5 centuries after that it was the turn of Kipchak and Oghuz tribes like Pechenegs, Cumans, Seljuks and Ottomans who fined ERE from the 10th century up to it's last breath
@@nenenindonuThe Byzantines did not pay tribute to any of those powers except the Ottomans during that time.
Alp Arslan famously demanded a large tribute from Romanos but the dynasty that usurped him never actually payed the tribute. The Previous treaty in the 1040s did not require tribute either. It was the opposite with Seljuk Rum meanwhile where it had to pay a tribute to Manuel Komnenos until it cancelled it with the conquest of the Danishmends.
The Pechenegs were given tribute when they were in the steppe outside Crimea in the 10th century but never received any when they settled in Wallachia and Bulgaria and were ultimately destroyed by the Byzantines.
Tribute was never paid to the Cumans, multiple Komnenoi Emperor personally went out to defeat their raids in the Balkans. They were only given one big initial sum to help Byzantium defeat the Pechenegs in the 1090s.
The Ottomans are the actual people on this list that multiple Byzantine Emperors had to continuously pay tribute too and indeed were an actual vassal to the Ottomans at times.
They could afford it, they were BY FAAAAR the most advanced and richest country during Dark Ages Medieval Europe
Prokopios rigidly accuses of the north politics of the Justinian regime in his Secret History; his book of Wars also contains the same dissatisfaction without directly targeting Justinian.1 As usual, “although they (Kutrigurs) receive many gifts from the emperor every year, they still cross the Danube River and overrun the emperor’s land, being both at peace and at war with the Romans.” (Prokopios, 2014, p. 471)
Kings and Generals at it again with another amazing video!
Thank you!
ERE’s brother, WRE be like: so uh yeah…mind giving us some coins? Our North African frontiers are collapsing, political turmoil, lack of recruitment, economy going to hell, barbarian invasions from the northern borders, east and, far west in the British isle. Please brother?
Theodosian the Great united the empire, before losing it.
The ERE did intervene multiple times to try and help the west
Theres a modern state near that área that only has to sneeze to receive 3 billion dollars in trib- er, support from the USA
Nope
@@KingsandGenerals what
How much gold was extracted by the Byzantines from various powers? The Byzantines were expert negotiators. It wasn't always the Byzantines giving tribute.
one calculation is missing: how much of GDP had paid.
Thanks for the video
Byzantium: "I'll pay you $3.8 billion to ****** off."
The tribute's in 6th and 7th century was paid in lightweight solidus(nomisma) of 20 or 22 siliquae (one siliqua was 1/24 of a solidus)
You are an excellent history chanel
Excellent video
I have never been so early to a Kings and Generals video before
14:20 The ANGELOID dynasty?! Surely you meant the Komnenian dynasty?
Thank you so much for this comment! Indeed, they meant the Komnenid dynasty. The Angelids were the worst.
The Angeloids were no better than Hemorrhoids
@@DannySikkemawhat are you on about? You are speaking as though it is some clearly deliniated period historically.
While the Comnenian Dynasty is deemed to have ended in 1185, this an utterly academic division.
In every other respect, the Angeloi *were* Komnenian, identified themselves as such and the state continued to be operated in the same manner. Isaac II Angelus was the grandson of Alexius Comnenus, his uncles were Doukas, and later descendants of the Angeloi who ruled in Epirus would carry the surname "Angelus-Comnenus-Doukas".
Isaac doesn’t deserve to be put with the rest of his dynasty but so true
@@tylerellis9097 I've come to sympathise with him. He was dealt a bad hand due to the Komnenian systems breakdown and a lot of his stupid decisions are more understandable through that lens.
dude I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS PLEASEEE NEVER STOP BRO
Thanks! Not planning to
Now this video really makes you understand why the ERE is as a certain blue cartoon man once called it: "Golden Disaster Empire"
How about a videos about ancient economies
Wow I remember the idea for this video being in a 2018 comment in the video of the battle of Catalaunian plains
Great work, thanks.
Good video
Awesome video I was thinking I would love to see a video showing later crusades and subsequent reconquest of Jerusalem to the fall of Jerusalem to kwaresmians (butchered spelling sorry) and fall of acre and all mainland crusader states.
same reason America and the E.U. pays Ukraine to fight Russia: fighting Russia would cost lots more money and NATO soldiers.
Indeed same concept
Correction. Pay Ukraine to help defend itself from Russia. Your wording makes it seem neutral, ignoring how Russia is the aggressor nation.
Using grizzly bears as a metric for weight is the most American thing I have ever seen 😂
Make a video on the Sassanid military.
Planned
How was Byzantine economy so prosperous?
Control of trade from Europe to Asia through Constantinople.
The Roman East had always been richer in general ever since they took Asia minor
Church ?
Don't forget they stole silk production secrets from Chinese, so that was huge for their trade
@@witcher-86 stole lol
That title could do with some work
Edit: new one fits much better!
Always open to suggestions
Nah I thought it was funny
Hey K&G thanks for doing what you do!:would you at some point make a video on the Teutonic order@@KingsandGenerals
a few coming up
Only true OGs remember "Eastern Rome paid so much tribute to their enemies"
Bulgaria also extract a lot of gold
The more Byzantine Roman videos the better. If you your writers haven't read it i recommend Anthony Kaldellis’s book Romanland: Ethnicity and Empire in Byzantium, it will be useful in your future videos. It discusses about the Byzantine Roman identity, who was included and who was excluded etc.
HERE WE GO BABY
Reminds one of the Song
Byzantium was around for 1000 years and naturally they accumulated a tonne of wealth along the way. They also had a solid army to boot. #RomanEmpire
Has anyone noticed that Byzantine maps always show their territory in purple, while rome is always red? Is there a historical reason for this besides the 'total war' games?
I don't think there is any particular reason. Roman Republic is probably getting red because of the legionaries, Eastern Rome because of the purple being the colour only the emperors were allowed to wear
@@KingsandGenerals there's the particular reason ;)
Yes, but there is no logic to it, I guess. For instance, we use green for the Caliphate, but generally they didn't have a flag, and the Umayyads liked white, while the Abbasids black.
@@KingsandGenerals to be clear, I'm not complaining and I love that game series and @kingsandgenerals . Just an interesting observation of historiography
Same. Just commenting on the arbitrariness
Maybe now video about paying enemies of my enemies?
I dont care how many bears or how much butter it weighs, tell me how many bars of gold it is! 😂
Very fascinant 👏👏👏👏👏🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇
I wonder how much of that gold made it's way back into Byzantine hands through economic processes and future politics.
The direct conversion of current gold to the US dollar belies the actual spending power of the coins in the period in question when compared to the spending power of the US dollar today. These were enormous sums of specie from the internal economy and still significant anywhere in Eurasia at the time.
Correct. Unfortunately it is impossible to quantify it, but, yes, in a world where the most expensive luxury was like silk, a billion bought much more proportionally
I saw the seeds of this idea for a video sown in the Catalaunian plains video comment section 😅
deep cut
Didn’t realize Europe had enough gold deposits / taxable sources to produce the tribute outlined in this video.
Armies are a huge cost so paying their enemies to achieve the same objective that the army has is logical. It’s likely the stipends paid to enemies presented a saving based on the cost of funding an army sizeable enough to defend their interests.
This will never, ever work in the long term, and only ends up biting you in the arse later.
Thanks again Kings and Generals! = Love your works!!! 👇 Next! 😊
Can you do the Eastern Roman empire's GDP in possible calculations estimated during its height of power under Justinian the great pretty please!?
Can you do the Roman Empire's tribute system both ways next please? = how it gained tribute from its enemies, allies and paid during its crisis eras to prevent tribes from attacking it?
Can you do the Roman Empire's GDP at its height based on historic notes known of best calculated peak please? = And how it got so rich over the many centuries.
Can you do the Eastern Roman empire's possible GDP during Basil the 2nd Please?
Can you show the rise and fall in changes to the city of Rome in scenery in buildings over its ages from pre-history during its foundations, to Rome as a kingdom to republic in becoming an empire later on as it expanded in scenery + When the walls were built in detail in so many famous buildings during the conquests and other later emperors & before the Western empire's fall + to the era leading up to the Eastern Roman reconquests and after... to its ruined state during the medieval ages & before the modern era?
Can you show the rise and fall in changes to the city of Constantinople in scenery in buildings over its ages from pre-history during Greece from its foundations, to Rome to Byzantium becoming Constantinople + When the walls were built and later Justinian building so many buildings during the reconquests + under Basil the 2nd and other later emperors + to the era leading up to the 4th crusade and after... to its ruined state during the fall to the Ottomans please?
Can you do all the calculated vids of what was the populations of the Roman kingdom + republic, empire and eastern half during their peak of power please?
Can you do a decline vid about how & why the Roman Republic eventfully declined in & with corruption and eventfully fell in reforms in becoming the empire in showing all the major events in history that led to its downfall to empire with the people involved?
Could you do a full trade vid of just how far the Romans reached around the world as merchants from one end to the other, along with what resources they all exchanged and income from all that in GDP?
Much appreciated if you do eventfully as projects for 2025 coming up throughout the whole year ahead... and would love to be a part of it more as an advisor as a part timer as well.
Please respond if you can, do or will... I'll always be around if interested for us fans to see of all this?
Much appreciated for all this... thanks again for your almost decade of hard work doing this channel in series... Keep up the Great Work! 😎😉
Do it all for the us fans, do it... For natural history of the past that really is amazing for all!
Your thoughts in possibilities?
Hashtag/#: It's Eastern Roman Empire, not Byzantine Empire! 💜😅💢
That is a staggering sum of cash to go to the huns, who most likely didn't need it.
"48 Shaquiel O Neals" Jesus that guy is huge lol
as were as said were armies fall diplomays prevailed
Good video, this is off topic but will you update the UA-cam channel member list?
Yep, it is updated every month
@KingsandGenerals thanks for telling me, but do you know exactly when?
@@funthingslayahead6108 not sure sorry
Thanks for updating the names at the end of the video
I love that the answer to, "why?" Is Because they could.
Interesting.
The more you concentrate wealth in the imperial metropole the more strongly those in the periphery of an empire are drawn there (as migrants, traders or conquerors). Whether conscious or unconscious, I think this distribution of wealth away from the imperial core is intrinsically and directly linked to the longevity of the Byzantine Empire.
Why not use that money to pit potential foes against one another, weakening them both, rather than letting them know they can blackmail you
Actually they did that also.
Once ibn almuqaffa wise man-maybe coward- said
“peace is better than war, for The costs peace is money, while the costs of war are lives”
finally another good video from Kings and Generals:)
Every video is good
@@KingsandGenerals yes! Good video by the end of the day:)
Thanxxx
i feel like simple multiplication isn't enough. i know there isnt a clear way to calculate inflation since those ages, but considering the gold supply being much lower than today, the actual cost is much more than 4 billion.
I guess my next question would be: how on earth had the bizantines so much money to throw around but declined. In not saying its imposible, but I think I need some kind of frame of reference to see how mucho of their wealth it took, how it compared to the sassanids or the avars and such questiones. Very cool video
about 1/1000 of the us annual tax revenue, over the many centuries, not much
Different scales
East Roman Empire Byzantine was maybe top 2 or 3 impressive Europen Empire in History .Legendary !
'48 Shaquille O' Neal's', not a great phrase for a serious history documentary, despite the nostalgia factor.
10 tons are 48 shaquille o neals? also crazy how much gold they had to have.
"PAY UP OR I'LL BURN THRACE!"- Kardam of Bulgaria
I wonder today how much a country like the United States would pay to avoid conflicts, or at least the richest countries in Europe.
I noticed that the Avars took into considerations the inflation every few decades 😂
In the mid-5th century, during Attila's reign, the Eastern Roman Empire was under significant pressure from the Huns. In order to maintain peace and avoid military conflict, the Eastern Romans agreed to pay him tribute. This was a common practice of the time, where weaker states would pay tribute to more powerful invaders to secure peace or protection. The relationship was complex, as both sides engaged in negotiations and occasional conflicts.
Nerd
Shaquille o´Neals??? How much would it be in Nick Bosas??
You've got some truly great artwork throughout BTW Kings & Generals, along with Invicta from every single image you all make together with your artists over there amongst your crew & team.
Can you please screenshot all of them so we can appreciate them online to enjoy & view as wallpaper all throughout... pretty please? 🤞🙏
You've had so many over the last few years or more now... it would be great to enjoy them all to the fullest having them as background images on our computers to appreciate or as posters in our houses if possible printed to buy or upload.
Could you go back through your vids from now on with your staff and please screenshot every last one of them so we can do so ourselves if wished as a request from us fans?
And before you ever ask which ones... the answer is yes = which? = All of them! = Every last scene screenshot from one after another from all vids' beginning to end... if you can pretty please in your free times?
Much appreciated from all us fans if you all can? 😎😉
Hashtag/#: Kings and Generals... Forever!!! 👍✔💪❤
Nice
What would all these tribute totals be in todays USD?
15:45