I’m passionate about helping the 4wd community and I'm developing an online course so i can help as many people as I can to get out there and wheel well on their 4wd adventures. To register your interest and for free and exclusive training videos visit madmatt4wd.com.au/register
Few things to note... First, it's an excellent technique. Second, if you stall on the way up the hill (eg due to poor gear selection), you can use the same technique to restart the vehicle and continue on your way. Lastly, in relation to manual vehicles, this isn't always possible. Some have a safety switch on the clutch to prevent you engaging the starter with your foot off the clutch. Others you can damage the starter or have issues with the electronics if you try to use this technique. Newer Isuzu 4WD trucks are an example of that, eg the 139-260, 45-150 etc. Get to know your vehicle and find out before you need to use it. If your vehicle has hill start assist, you may want to use that instead.
Yes - my Toyota Fortuner GX manual 2015 has the clutch safety switch so you cannot start in reverse with clutch out and I wish LOW RANGE deactivated this safety switch. Can’t modify this ADR ‘safety’ feature….
This is a massively underrated skill. I think the best way to get the most out of it, is the identify the stall before the truck starts to skid too far sideways. Like the bloke in the LR did.
Except for the auto, learned this in 74 doing my Army driving course. Great to see. I remember one off road expert revved to 12,000 rpm, clutch out. Gear box landed in Mt.Isa, clutch in Bowen and never found the tailshaft.
As a young lad in 1989 I purchased my 1st 4WD, a brand new manual GQ Patrol and immediately joined the Nissan Patrol 4WD club. On my first 4WD training course with the club the instructors took us to their tracks out near the Colo river west of Sydney and while traversing up a steep rock ledge I lost some traction before stalling the vehicle on the ledge at a very acute angle with the vehicle in precarious position still pointing very steeply directly up the slope but stationary with my foot on the brake pedal (engaged in 1st or 2nd?, low range). I was scared sh#@less but one the instructors talking to me from outside the vehicle thru the drivers side window asked me to apply the handbrake and give me time to regain some composure. He then calmly ran me thru the plan to continue up the ledge (what the #uck I thought to myself) and onto the flat ground just beyond. Following his instructions I then released the handbrake and then slowly took my foot off the brake pedal being reassured in the process that the vehicle would not roll back down the slope because the engine compression would hold the vehicle on the slope (this was a revelation to inexperienced me). He then asked me to set the smallest amt of manual hand throttle (the GQ had this feature) and lastly restart the engine and then steer up the rock slope. When I restarted the engine I was amazed as the vehicle just effortlessly lifted up, lurched forward and seemly climbed that ledge all by itself and me out of a dangerous situation. I’ll never forget that experience, the relief I felt and the valuable lessons learned that day. At that time the GQ was a new model following on from the MQ and it may have just earned some early cred from the troops on hand that day. Watch the video again folks, it’s the next best thing to having an experienced instructor standing at your side working to get you out of trouble.
Great video! I learnt this procedure many years ago when learning to drive Cat1 4x4 tankers in the RFS. During the 93-94 fires west of Cessnock, a Striker (Cat2) was severely damaged when the driver lost forward traction on a steep off-road climb. He stopped on the hill with the foot brakes alone. The vehicle started to slid, dragging the front wheels backwards. In a panic, he then applied the handbrake. On the vehicle, the handbrake is applied to the tailshaft not the wheels. With the momentum and weight of the vehicle at the wheel end and the brake stopping the gearbox end, the tail shaft began to twist, eventually snapping completely! With nothing left but the foot brake to to stop the vehicle, it ended up loosing control and gained speed down the hill. It drifted off the track, hitting many trees and rocks before coming to a stop. Nobody was injured but the damage to the vehicle was extensive! Had the driver known this procedure, he could have safely reversed down to a safe location. I use this technique in my vehicle regularly.
Another awesome vid Matt. Starting the car in gear and clutch out, is like sitting down to wee. I’ve never done it this always before always had the clutch in. I’ll try it in a few weeks time. It makes sense to do so. I’ve learned something new today. Thanks Matt. Keep up the great work 👏👏👏
I did a 4wd course and they taught us this. Learning This freaked me out but then you realise how easy it is. It feels so alien to stay off the clutch. Like sitting down to wee haha
Good work Matt, the more people know this technique the better. It's good idea to practice stall stop recovery before it's required in anger. You don't need to be on a steep slope in the bush, find a nice quiet easy spot and practice, get the muscle memory going because long time manual driving, it's not "normal" to stop without engaging the clutch. On the downside though, most new manual gearbox vehicles have a clutch interlock, that makes the process slightly trickier. Can you cover that in a new video? Cheers John
ooh that interlock. I have it on my 2017 Colorado. Between that and the stupid hill start assist, which *can't* be disabled.. it makes hill start recovery one of the most painful things ever
Usually they have a switch on the clutch linkage like a brake light switch, I usually bypass it so it'll start with the clutch out. Just remember that the vehicle will start in gear, so don't let other people drive your vehicle, or leave your keys in it around children !
If you have a faulty starter motor in a manual transmission vehicle you can still bump start it. You can’t bump start an automatic transmission vehicle so both transmissions have pros and cons. My advice is don’t take a vehicle with any mechanical issues until they are fixed.
@@unimogman1 picture this scenario: you are out solo vehicle in the bush, you realise your starter is on it's way out so you make a beeline to the nearest town to get it fixed, on your way there there are tricky sections that might require you to stop the vehicle and get out to asses and a manual roll start will not be possible, or imagine being in a manual where the manual stalls and a roll start is not possible, in these scenarios an automatic would definately be the better option.
Still pros and cons to both transmissions. If the nearest repair is 20 hours drive than you will have to do it without switching off an auto car but you can stop a manual in a suitable place switch it off , take a break and bump start it to continue on your way.
For the auto there is also the option to use the accelerator to drive through the brake when on really steep or loose gravel hills to stop the tyres from locking up and to maintain the ability to steer.
Been 4wding for quite a few years now. I still get extremely anxious whenever I've got to stop halfway up a steep climb. Manual GQ. I to this day have to stop myself and take a deep breath every time
Thanks for the manual driving help. I appreciate this video. Is this basically the same procedure when your going up a hill, stall but want to keep going up?
For my auto and probably most others, my lowest gear is not first-low, but rather reverse-low. I think everyone should try reverse low down a smooth hill without braking to get a feel for it. I was amazed how slow and controlled it can be with no brakes. Of course steeper and rougher may require feathering brakes.
You can use some bright colored tape on the steering wheel to assure that your wheels are in a straight position this helps in a situation if the vehicle starts sliding and your not sure which position your wheels are in and also when back down a hill like in the video
That’s true. Also most steering wheel spokes will be level when straight ahead. The issue is you can be one turn out so this doesn’t always guarantee your straight ahead.
I'm confident that there will be newcomers to 4WD reading these comments. One observation I've consistently made when I've taken individuals who have limited or no experience in 4WD is their apprehension when tackling even the slightest angles. As a novice 4WD enthusiast, you might quickly feel uncomfortable. Adapting these techniques while under pressure can prove to be quite challenging, particularly if you're driving a manual transmission. I've even encountered individuals driving automatics who occasionally mix up the gears, switching between "D" and "R," uncertain about when to release the brake and apply reverse power - and even questioning whether it's necessary. Additionally, when navigating steep terrain, some may use "D" to utilise engine power to reposition the vehicle against the force of gravity, maintaining control and preparing for a reactive recovery process if necessary. Then the steering aspect, wheel position etc as Matt mentions becoming a whole other part of some recovery situations on a hill. The key point here is that when you learn these techniques online, it's always a wise idea to put them into practice on a test track or in a controlled environment. This allows you to become familiar with how the vehicle responds to your inputs. Then, when the time comes, you'll be able to apply these experiences to your specific situation. While not every situation will be identical, over time, you'll develop a mental understanding of what's required when you encounter these scenarios. A good video Matt I reckon would be to demonstrate why your front wheels don't steer you when in going backwards on steep stuff while they are locked up. I find people don't quickly understand the physics of why vehicles slide and steering input does nothing while going going backwards due to the braking situation on the front wheels. Great video as always.
@7:03 wouldn’t work in my situation as in my Ute you need to have the clutch engaged to start the engine however I haven’t had any issues hill starting off-road great content Matt
Had a situation a few years back out near Lithgow where this would have been great to know. I stalled on a steep hill towing a trailer and ended up jack knifing the trailer and was stuck for a couple of hours while people sat there watching rather than helping, they had winches etc where as I didn't. I tried to get my brother to chock the back wheels but even with decent sized rocks I still rolled back over them. I tried to take off forward amd eventually had my timing slip and that left my vehicle dead. If I had have known how to do a controlled up hill start I probably could have gotten out of it.
@MadMatt4WD that it's not. Ended up very costly too having to get a tow from Lithgow to Blacktown and then do my timing. If I had have known I could actually start the vehicle in gear I might have been able to drive out but I had mostly driven Auto vehicles and did not know that was possible without causing damage.
Yep, I certainly found it weird to start the car in reverse without the clutch depressed. I've never tried that before. Will give it a go when the tracks reopen soon. If you tried that on flat ground, in first gear moving forward, the car would unhappily bunny hop and stall. Is it because you're on a steep slope that that doesn't happen? Is it also because you're in reverse?
It depends on the vehicle. Most modern manual cars will start fine on flat ground in 1st or reverse. The landcruiser can start going forward uphill if needed.
Just tried it moving forward in the driveway. Very slight incline. Sounded like I had a flat battery and the Troopy refused to move. Wasn't in high or low. Would that make a difference? I'm very intrigued by all of this. Drove Billy Goat Bluff Track earlier this year and ended up stopping near the edge of the track on a steep incline, near a bloody tree. Got going again, but with the help of the clutch and hand brake.
I'll add a bit to manual part. There are vehicles with built-in "foolprof" switch that prohibits the starter to turn if the clutch is engaged.Those may need some slight modification to this technique. I'm not a big off-roader but I have some experience on dirt roads.
I really like the educational videos, but I did try to sign up for the onlinne content, but things didn't work, maybe because I'm in the UK? As I look at it I don't really need to participate, but you can never knoweverything and refreshers are good things to do. Mal.
A bit unrelated but along similar lines, once I stopped on a steep slope (unsure of the precise angle but it was pretty steep), and wanted to continue driving (not reversing) but when I was putting in drive there was not enough power to accelerate and the car kept sliding backwards which was scary. My solution was to flip to the semi-auto side of the auto-gear box and put first gear and drive up. I wonder though if there is a safer/more elegant procedure for an auto gear box to start driving forward on a steep slope.
This stall technique great for most people but I dont use the stall technique that often i usually prefer to clutch stop and get the vechile into reverse as fast as possible. If it holds there great i can calmly reverse back down. But some times the vechile goes into a reverse slide so hence i need to be in reverse asap to get back down to get back in control. This tends to happen mostly on pastures where skidding makes it more slippery. Add to that i tow a 2.5 trailer regularly with 2 ton digger on. Try failed hill climbs with a trailer on............. Driving around farms towing diggers looking for and fixing water leaks can get very interesting sometimes. Me and local 4wd club been playing with a few technical techniques but theres no answer apart from i probably shouldnt be attempting these hills. Even with chains on, braked trailer, 3.3 ton 79 series. Ive gone backwards. Had to accelerate in reverse with a trailer on to get back control. Chains on trailer do provide the best help tho.
That sounds fun. I agree with you but I’d put you into advanced driving techniques. I use a number of other techniques as well depending on the situation.
I had to think for a while as to why you use the key to start the car and not let it roll start (or turn the key while the clutch is in while going for reverse) the only reason I could think of (not sure if I got the correct answer) is will the car momentary lock up (like when you push start a car and drop the clutch) when allowing the car to roll backwards to start and would turning the key make it more controlled?
Often the engine will hold it in place so you need to give it a bump to get started. On really steep hills I’ve not needed to hit the key. It’s just started to roll until the engine fires.
Thanks, Mat, for such an excellent video. Would the engine not halt again when you turn the ignition on while the car is in reverse without pressing the clutch? I was always under the impression that the car wouldn't start in gear without pressing on the clutch! Would appreciate your answer.
@@MadMatt4WD@MadMatt4WD Thanks for replying, mate. I have a Nissan Patrol GU 61, 2011 model. Hopefully, it will start. Also, please let me know how to reverse the manual 4WD uphill while travelling downhill. For example, if you are traveling downhill and there is a log in front, you have to reverse the car uphill now. Regards.
@@MadMatt4WD ideally you’d like to be in reverse and driving instead of being a passenger in a sled. Practically the odds are stacked against you. But there’s a technique that helps increase your odds. Whilst in fwd use brake (and if necessary accelerator) to drop engine revs to just above stall Drop into neutral (no clutch) By releasing the brake to a point where the wheels start turning instead of sliding you’d should be able to drop into reverse without clutch (if not use the clutch under brakes you haven’t much left to loose) It’s certainly an advanced technique that requires driver and vehicle to be intimately familiar with each other Warning - this requires practise in a controlled environment
After watching your video on front vs back lockers, I recently tried this technique. A little nerve racking at first, but the reverse was so controlled. Can starting the vehicle in gear this way cause any mechanical issues down the track? Cheers Matt.
Nice work Matt, love the stuff you do Tried some stuff recently, more difficult than what I've done before. I found constantly that I'd start an obstacle going up hill, and the angle put me in a position where I couldn't see what was right in front of me and I'd easily lose track of the line I was trying to take (solo 4wheeling, no spotter). Maybe that's just an experience thing, but I was wondering if you had anything related to that kinda stuff? Cheers
Hi Matt, thanks for the tutorial. I have a few things I would like clarification on. First, would engaging the vehicle into 4WD low range help while reversing down , the engine braking should help in controlling the downforce right. And what if the track has loose gravel & vehicle losing traction at some point while coming down, what technique would be my best to control the slide.
For a hill that steep you should already be in Low range. Even if driving an auto with lots of power, if you remain in High Range, it will create a lot of heat in the converter as it will be slipping to compensate for the higher gearing.
If your using this technique you should already be in low range 4wd. If going back and you loose steering because the front tyres skid. Input some steering where you want to go then ease of the brakes a tad to turn the vehicle then get back into the brakes to slow you down again. Repeat as necessary.
Would there be anything wrong with just putting the vehicle in neutral instead of reverse? When backing down a boat ramp it's common to use neutral instead of reverse to allow you to more delicately control the speed at which you want to go backwards
No, engine braking and feathering the brake if required gives the best control on a slippery surface like gravel and mud. Just relying on the brakes increases the chance of locking a wheel and getting into an uncontrolled slide. Ask me how I know
Do vehicles not have a "neutral sfety switch" down there? Most all modern vehicles (in the states at least) won't engage the starter when you turn the key unless the clutch is depressed or transmission is in neutral. To do this method that switch must be disabled.
Hi Matt, I'm wondering if it's also safe in a manual car to stop on the hill by stalling the engine, then leaving it in gear with the handbrake on to get out of the vehicle and run a winch rope to a tree? This would be useful for example if you were wheeling with someone in the passenger seat who didn't know how to run a winch or wasn't confident doing so (my girlfriend for example). I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!
I haven't driven a manual for quite some time now, but have driven them a lot. I have started a car with a dead battery using this technique, but it had a kick to it before the car started, which I believe would be enough to change the circumstances on a hill. Doesn't that kick happen in these circumstances? Or is that related to the type of car and clutch? (that specific car was pretty old, maybe the newer ones don't do it?)
When you say kick you mean a surge from the motor revving at start? If so that does happen and is best managed by expecting it and being hard on the brakes to control it.
How strong is the park pin in an auto transmission? Can it shear off under too much strain. Just asking as an old 80 series owner who’s handbrake with all new parts and adjustments still barely works.
@@MadMatt4WD cheers. I go four wheel driving alone a lot as I live in a country town and will go for a quick four wheel drive on the way home from work often. My biggest fear with the crap handbrake is getting stuck on a hill and for whatever reason having to get out of the vehicle. Which means semi relying on the autos park while trying to find something decent to put under the back wheels and or getting a strap from the front to a tree. I’m talking if the engine dies and can’t get it started or some other dire circumstance
@@JaxTellerRC Those are the challenges of wheeling alone. Which I also do a lot of. When you have knowledge and skill you then need to take the time to think through the situation you find yourself in and then work out how best to manage it. This is where the fun of 4wding comes in in my mind.
Is it normal to have to put all my weight on my brake when parked on a steep incline. Triton auto and engine running. It was scary, felt like it wasn't holding me unless I forced the brake pedal like crazy.
Autos use a “parking pawl” when you place the tranny in park. Over time they wear out and it could fail, particularly if it’s had a hard life. That’s why you should always engage your handbrake first when parking on an incline and then place the tranny in park. If you don’t, you will feel the car lurch back a bit as the pawl takes hold. This puts pressure on it over time and could lead to failure.
Not engine brake because it’s a parking pawls in the gearbox but In this case we want to go back right away. If your parking to get out of the car it would be good to go to park. If you engage park on a steep climb it can be very hard to get it out of park and or you can overload the parking pawl causing damage.
There is no physical contact with an automatic transmission to the engine. It's all fluid. When in park there's a pin in the transmission that engages with the transmission housing to lock it up. They are not really that strong. On a steep hill that pin can stick pretty hard, making shifting out of park very difficult. Possibly hard enough to break or bend linkage. Always make sure the emergency brake can hold the vehicle on a steep hill before putting it in park.
I’m passionate about helping the 4wd community and I'm developing an online course so i can help as many people as I can to get out there and wheel well on their 4wd adventures. To register your interest and for free and exclusive training videos visit madmatt4wd.com.au/register
Few things to note...
First, it's an excellent technique.
Second, if you stall on the way up the hill (eg due to poor gear selection), you can use the same technique to restart the vehicle and continue on your way.
Lastly, in relation to manual vehicles, this isn't always possible.
Some have a safety switch on the clutch to prevent you engaging the starter with your foot off the clutch.
Others you can damage the starter or have issues with the electronics if you try to use this technique. Newer Isuzu 4WD trucks are an example of that, eg the 139-260, 45-150 etc.
Get to know your vehicle and find out before you need to use it.
If your vehicle has hill start assist, you may want to use that instead.
You make some excellent points. Thank you
Yes - my Toyota Fortuner GX manual 2015 has the clutch safety switch so you cannot start in reverse with clutch out and I wish LOW RANGE deactivated this safety switch. Can’t modify this ADR ‘safety’ feature….
Perfect, got that important lesson in a Vic Pol 4x4 course in 1985. Well demonstrated Matt.
This is a massively underrated skill. I think the best way to get the most out of it, is the identify the stall before the truck starts to skid too far sideways. Like the bloke in the LR did.
Correct. Good point
Except for the auto, learned this in 74 doing my Army driving course. Great to see. I remember one off road expert revved to 12,000 rpm, clutch out. Gear box landed in Mt.Isa, clutch in Bowen and never found the tailshaft.
As a young lad in 1989 I purchased my 1st 4WD, a brand new manual GQ Patrol and immediately joined the Nissan Patrol 4WD club. On my first 4WD training course with the club the instructors took us to their tracks out near the Colo river west of Sydney and while traversing up a steep rock ledge I lost some traction before stalling the vehicle on the ledge at a very acute angle with the vehicle in precarious position still pointing very steeply directly up the slope but stationary with my foot on the brake pedal (engaged in 1st or 2nd?, low range). I was scared sh#@less but one the instructors talking to me from outside the vehicle thru the drivers side window asked me to apply the handbrake and give me time to regain some composure. He then calmly ran me thru the plan to continue up the ledge (what the #uck I thought to myself) and onto the flat ground just beyond. Following his instructions I then released the handbrake and then slowly took my foot off the brake pedal being reassured in the process that the vehicle would not roll back down the slope because the engine compression would hold the vehicle on the slope (this was a revelation to inexperienced me). He then asked me to set the smallest amt of manual hand throttle (the GQ had this feature) and lastly restart the engine and then steer up the rock slope. When I restarted the engine I was amazed as the vehicle just effortlessly lifted up, lurched forward and seemly climbed that ledge all by itself and me out of a dangerous situation. I’ll never forget that experience, the relief I felt and the valuable lessons learned that day. At that time the GQ was a new model following on from the MQ and it may have just earned some early cred from the troops on hand that day. Watch the video again folks, it’s the next best thing to having an experienced instructor standing at your side working to get you out of trouble.
Great video!
I learnt this procedure many years ago when learning to drive Cat1 4x4 tankers in the RFS.
During the 93-94 fires west of Cessnock, a Striker (Cat2) was severely damaged when the driver lost forward traction on a steep off-road climb.
He stopped on the hill with the foot brakes alone. The vehicle started to slid, dragging the front wheels backwards. In a panic, he then applied the handbrake. On the vehicle, the handbrake is applied to the tailshaft not the wheels. With the momentum and weight of the vehicle at the wheel end and the brake stopping the gearbox end, the tail shaft began to twist, eventually snapping completely!
With nothing left but the foot brake to to stop the vehicle, it ended up loosing control and gained speed down the hill. It drifted off the track, hitting many trees and rocks before coming to a stop.
Nobody was injured but the damage to the vehicle was extensive!
Had the driver known this procedure, he could have safely reversed down to a safe location.
I use this technique in my vehicle regularly.
Yes I learned this also when I was in the Rfs as a tanker driver.
Great video Matt, I love my manual 4WD. Great refresher for me it’s second nature to put my foot on the clutch.
Maybe have a few practice runs next time your out.
Another awesome vid Matt.
Starting the car in gear and clutch out, is like sitting down to wee. I’ve never done it this always before always had the clutch in. I’ll try it in a few weeks time. It makes sense to do so. I’ve learned something new today. Thanks Matt. Keep up the great work 👏👏👏
I did a 4wd course and they taught us this. Learning This freaked me out but then you realise how easy it is. It feels so alien to stay off the clutch. Like sitting down to wee haha
What not even a sneaky midnight pee? 😂😂😂 thanks mate
@@MadMatt4WD lol ok you got me... Peeing sitting down is not totally alien to me.
@@dom0 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks mate a great reminder after completing off-road driving driving and from someone who travels solo most of the time 👍
This Hill start Recovery has saved me and Hundreds of My buddies Dozens of times on Steep Moab Climbs 8:26 great Method of Recovery and Control matt
I’ve gotta wheel there some day.
@@MadMatt4WD moab is Very fun so is King of Hammers
@@AntonioClaudioMichaelI’ve done hammers twice.
@@MadMatt4WD I have done KOH 9 times Its always a blast
Can't wait to see more of the jeep build 👍🏻
We used to teach and call it "the stall procedure" in early 2000's
Greatest way to recover back down without damage.
Yes we used to call it that when I was teaching in the club.
Good work Matt, the more people know this technique the better. It's good idea to practice stall stop recovery before it's required in anger.
You don't need to be on a steep slope in the bush, find a nice quiet easy spot and practice, get the muscle memory going because long time manual driving, it's not "normal" to stop without engaging the clutch.
On the downside though, most new manual gearbox vehicles have a clutch interlock, that makes the process slightly trickier.
Can you cover that in a new video?
Cheers
John
ooh that interlock. I have it on my 2017 Colorado. Between that and the stupid hill start assist, which *can't* be disabled.. it makes hill start recovery one of the most painful things ever
Usually they have a switch on the clutch linkage like a brake light switch, I usually bypass it so it'll start with the clutch out. Just remember that the vehicle will start in gear, so don't let other people drive your vehicle, or leave your keys in it around children !
One of the reasons I like old cars. But as mentioned below I’ve been known to modify systems.
@@duane4972you could even wire in a bypass switch on the dash for emergencies then switch it back to standard for normal situations
Did a course with Isuzu when I first got it they showed us that bloody comes in handy once you get the hang of it
Yes. I used it once in anger when I had my canter. Terrifying but it worked.
Nice work Matt. This also shows a huge benefit of auto vs manual if you had a faulty stater motor.
If you have a faulty starter motor in a manual transmission vehicle you can still bump start it. You can’t bump start an automatic transmission vehicle so both transmissions have pros and cons.
My advice is don’t take a vehicle with any mechanical issues until they are fixed.
@@unimogman1 picture this scenario: you are out solo vehicle in the bush, you realise your starter is on it's way out so you make a beeline to the nearest town to get it fixed, on your way there there are tricky sections that might require you to stop the vehicle and get out to asses and a manual roll start will not be possible, or imagine being in a manual where the manual stalls and a roll start is not possible, in these scenarios an automatic would definately be the better option.
Still pros and cons to both transmissions. If the nearest repair is 20 hours drive than you will have to do it without switching off an auto car but you can stop a manual in a suitable place switch it off , take a break and bump start it to continue on your way.
For the auto there is also the option to use the accelerator to drive through the brake when on really steep or loose gravel hills to stop the tyres from locking up and to maintain the ability to steer.
Yes. When I’m Offroad I only left foot brake. It’s just a habit now.
Been 4wding for quite a few years now. I still get extremely anxious whenever I've got to stop halfway up a steep climb. Manual GQ. I to this day have to stop myself and take a deep breath every time
You can do it!
Thanks for the manual driving help. I appreciate this video. Is this basically the same procedure when your going up a hill, stall but want to keep going up?
Yes but obviously you need to add the hills start procedure so it is more advanced. I’ll do another video on that.
For my auto and probably most others, my lowest gear is not first-low, but rather reverse-low. I think everyone should try reverse low down a smooth hill without braking to get a feel for it. I was amazed how slow and controlled it can be with no brakes. Of course steeper and rougher may require feathering brakes.
Good point.
You can use some bright colored tape on the steering wheel to assure that your wheels are in a straight position this helps in a situation if the vehicle starts sliding and your not sure which position your wheels are in and also when back down a hill like in the video
That’s true. Also most steering wheel spokes will be level when straight ahead. The issue is you can be one turn out so this doesn’t always guarantee your straight ahead.
Great Video Mate! Hope things are well!
Thanks! You too!
I'm confident that there will be newcomers to 4WD reading these comments. One observation I've consistently made when I've taken individuals who have limited or no experience in 4WD is their apprehension when tackling even the slightest angles. As a novice 4WD enthusiast, you might quickly feel uncomfortable. Adapting these techniques while under pressure can prove to be quite challenging, particularly if you're driving a manual transmission. I've even encountered individuals driving automatics who occasionally mix up the gears, switching between "D" and "R," uncertain about when to release the brake and apply reverse power - and even questioning whether it's necessary. Additionally, when navigating steep terrain, some may use "D" to utilise engine power to reposition the vehicle against the force of gravity, maintaining control and preparing for a reactive recovery process if necessary. Then the steering aspect, wheel position etc as Matt mentions becoming a whole other part of some recovery situations on a hill.
The key point here is that when you learn these techniques online, it's always a wise idea to put them into practice on a test track or in a controlled environment. This allows you to become familiar with how the vehicle responds to your inputs. Then, when the time comes, you'll be able to apply these experiences to your specific situation. While not every situation will be identical, over time, you'll develop a mental understanding of what's required when you encounter these scenarios.
A good video Matt I reckon would be to demonstrate why your front wheels don't steer you when in going backwards on steep stuff while they are locked up. I find people don't quickly understand the physics of why vehicles slide and steering input does nothing while going going backwards due to the braking situation on the front wheels. Great video as always.
Great comment. Yes that’s a video I want to do.
@7:03 wouldn’t work in my situation as in my Ute you need to have the clutch engaged to start the engine however I haven’t had any issues hill starting off-road great content Matt
Yes you do need to modify the procedure in the situation.
Had a situation a few years back out near Lithgow where this would have been great to know. I stalled on a steep hill towing a trailer and ended up jack knifing the trailer and was stuck for a couple of hours while people sat there watching rather than helping, they had winches etc where as I didn't. I tried to get my brother to chock the back wheels but even with decent sized rocks I still rolled back over them. I tried to take off forward amd eventually had my timing slip and that left my vehicle dead. If I had have known how to do a controlled up hill start I probably could have gotten out of it.
I’ve been caught like that. It’s not fun
@MadMatt4WD that it's not. Ended up very costly too having to get a tow from Lithgow to Blacktown and then do my timing. If I had have known I could actually start the vehicle in gear I might have been able to drive out but I had mostly driven Auto vehicles and did not know that was possible without causing damage.
Yep, I certainly found it weird to start the car in reverse without the clutch depressed. I've never tried that before. Will give it a go when the tracks reopen soon. If you tried that on flat ground, in first gear moving forward, the car would unhappily bunny hop and stall. Is it because you're on a steep slope that that doesn't happen? Is it also because you're in reverse?
It depends on the vehicle. Most modern manual cars will start fine on flat ground in 1st or reverse. The landcruiser can start going forward uphill if needed.
His rigs are geared low enough you don't get that hop.
Okay. Will definitely try it all out. I have a 2003 Troopy. Thanks for the reply.@@MadMatt4WD
Just tried it moving forward in the driveway. Very slight incline. Sounded like I had a flat battery and the Troopy refused to move. Wasn't in high or low. Would that make a difference? I'm very intrigued by all of this. Drove Billy Goat Bluff Track earlier this year and ended up stopping near the edge of the track on a steep incline, near a bloody tree. Got going again, but with the help of the clutch and hand brake.
I'll add a bit to manual part. There are vehicles with built-in "foolprof" switch that prohibits the starter to turn if the clutch is engaged.Those may need some slight modification to this technique. I'm not a big off-roader but I have some experience on dirt roads.
That’s correct. I should have mentioned this.
Thumbs up just for the mirror shot. Mad Matt's Blue Steel. I'd pay for a print of that, mirror in the frame.
Ha ha. 🙃
I really like the educational videos, but I did try to sign up for the onlinne content, but things didn't work, maybe because I'm in the UK? As I look at it I don't really need to participate, but you can never knoweverything and refreshers are good things to do. Mal.
Hey Mal. Sorry about that. Email me at madmatt@madmatt4wd.com.au
A bit unrelated but along similar lines, once I stopped on a steep slope (unsure of the precise angle but it was pretty steep), and wanted to continue driving (not reversing) but when I was putting in drive there was not enough power to accelerate and the car kept sliding backwards which was scary. My solution was to flip to the semi-auto side of the auto-gear box and put first gear and drive up. I wonder though if there is a safer/more elegant procedure for an auto gear box to start driving forward on a steep slope.
What you did is correct. Get into the lowest gear you can and gently feed power on.
This stall technique great for most people but I dont use the stall technique that often i usually prefer to clutch stop and get the vechile into reverse as fast as possible. If it holds there great i can calmly reverse back down. But some times the vechile goes into a reverse slide so hence i need to be in reverse asap to get back down to get back in control.
This tends to happen mostly on pastures where skidding makes it more slippery.
Add to that i tow a 2.5 trailer regularly with 2 ton digger on.
Try failed hill climbs with a trailer on.............
Driving around farms towing diggers looking for and fixing water leaks can get very interesting sometimes.
Me and local 4wd club been playing with a few technical techniques but theres no answer apart from i probably shouldnt be attempting these hills.
Even with chains on, braked trailer, 3.3 ton 79 series. Ive gone backwards. Had to accelerate in reverse with a trailer on to get back control.
Chains on trailer do provide the best help tho.
That sounds fun. I agree with you but I’d put you into advanced driving techniques. I use a number of other techniques as well depending on the situation.
@MadMatt4WD been trying to find some advanced training for myself no one's perfect and there's always something to learn. Hence watching ya videos!
I had to think for a while as to why you use the key to start the car and not let it roll start (or turn the key while the clutch is in while going for reverse) the only reason I could think of (not sure if I got the correct answer) is will the car momentary lock up (like when you push start a car and drop the clutch) when allowing the car to roll backwards to start and would turning the key make it more controlled?
Often the engine will hold it in place so you need to give it a bump to get started. On really steep hills I’ve not needed to hit the key. It’s just started to roll until the engine fires.
Thanks, Mat, for such an excellent video. Would the engine not halt again when you turn the ignition on while the car is in reverse without pressing the clutch? I was always under the impression that the car wouldn't start in gear without pressing on the clutch! Would appreciate your answer.
Thanks. It’ll depend if the car. Modern cars often don’t let you do this. But older cars like this one fire right up and run normally.
@@MadMatt4WD@MadMatt4WD Thanks for replying, mate. I have a Nissan Patrol GU 61, 2011 model. Hopefully, it will start. Also, please let me know how to reverse the manual 4WD uphill while travelling downhill. For example, if you are traveling downhill and there is a log in front, you have to reverse the car uphill now. Regards.
Have a practice to find out. Reversing up hill is just normal but know where your going and be easy on the power.
Thanks for making all these great vids👍👍
Lake Havasu 🌞 Az
Glad you like them!
Do you have a video for the procedure when the brakes don’t hold you? Like on a wet clay hill?
Yes but there’s not much you can do.
@@MadMatt4WD ideally you’d like to be in reverse and driving instead of being a passenger in a sled. Practically the odds are stacked against you.
But there’s a technique that helps increase your odds.
Whilst in fwd use brake (and if necessary accelerator) to drop engine revs to just above stall
Drop into neutral (no clutch)
By releasing the brake to a point where the wheels start turning instead of sliding you’d should be able to drop into reverse without clutch (if not use the clutch under brakes you haven’t much left to loose)
It’s certainly an advanced technique that requires driver and vehicle to be intimately familiar with each other
Warning - this requires practise in a controlled environment
Yes that’s how I’d tackle it and like you say it’s an advanced technique.
After watching your video on front vs back lockers, I recently tried this technique. A little nerve racking at first, but the reverse was so controlled. Can starting the vehicle in gear this way cause any mechanical issues down the track? Cheers Matt.
Well done. No it won’t hurt the vehicle.
Nice work Matt, love the stuff you do
Tried some stuff recently, more difficult than what I've done before. I found constantly that I'd start an obstacle going up hill, and the angle put me in a position where I couldn't see what was right in front of me and I'd easily lose track of the line I was trying to take (solo 4wheeling, no spotter). Maybe that's just an experience thing, but I was wondering if you had anything related to that kinda stuff?
Cheers
I’ll do a video about what I do.
Hi Matt, thanks for the tutorial. I have a few things I would like clarification on. First, would engaging the vehicle into 4WD low range help while reversing down , the engine braking should help in controlling the downforce right. And what if the track has loose gravel & vehicle losing traction at some point while coming down, what technique would be my best to control the slide.
For a hill that steep you should already be in Low range. Even if driving an auto with lots of power, if you remain in High Range, it will create a lot of heat in the converter as it will be slipping to compensate for the higher gearing.
If your using this technique you should already be in low range 4wd. If going back and you loose steering because the front tyres skid. Input some steering where you want to go then ease of the brakes a tad to turn the vehicle then get back into the brakes to slow you down again. Repeat as necessary.
Would there be anything wrong with just putting the vehicle in neutral instead of reverse? When backing down a boat ramp it's common to use neutral instead of reverse to allow you to more delicately control the speed at which you want to go backwards
No, engine braking and feathering the brake if required gives the best control on a slippery surface like gravel and mud. Just relying on the brakes increases the chance of locking a wheel and getting into an uncontrolled slide. Ask me how I know
Yes and you can even leave an auto in drive and go back but these are advanced techniques.
Can you specify if you need to be in Low Range or High Range please?
Either but if it’s this steep you should already be in low. Go back a few videos and watch my video low vs high range.
Do vehicles not have a "neutral sfety switch" down there? Most all modern vehicles (in the states at least) won't engage the starter when you turn the key unless the clutch is depressed or transmission is in neutral.
To do this method that switch must be disabled.
You’re right and I should have made mention of it.
Hi Matt, I'm wondering if it's also safe in a manual car to stop on the hill by stalling the engine, then leaving it in gear with the handbrake on to get out of the vehicle and run a winch rope to a tree?
This would be useful for example if you were wheeling with someone in the passenger seat who didn't know how to run a winch or wasn't confident doing so (my girlfriend for example). I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!
Yes it can work but I’d get the passenger out to chock all four wheels as well.
@@MadMatt4WD great thank you!
I haven't driven a manual for quite some time now, but have driven them a lot. I have started a car with a dead battery using this technique, but it had a kick to it before the car started, which I believe would be enough to change the circumstances on a hill. Doesn't that kick happen in these circumstances? Or is that related to the type of car and clutch? (that specific car was pretty old, maybe the newer ones don't do it?)
When you say kick you mean a surge from the motor revving at start? If so that does happen and is best managed by expecting it and being hard on the brakes to control it.
How strong is the park pin in an auto transmission? Can it shear off under too much strain. Just asking as an old 80 series owner who’s handbrake with all new parts and adjustments still barely works.
They tend to override. Don’t trust them too much.
@@MadMatt4WD cheers. I go four wheel driving alone a lot as I live in a country town and will go for a quick four wheel drive on the way home from work often. My biggest fear with the crap handbrake is getting stuck on a hill and for whatever reason having to get out of the vehicle. Which means semi relying on the autos park while trying to find something decent to put under the back wheels and or getting a strap from the front to a tree. I’m talking if the engine dies and can’t get it started or some other dire circumstance
@@JaxTellerRC Those are the challenges of wheeling alone. Which I also do a lot of. When you have knowledge and skill you then need to take the time to think through the situation you find yourself in and then work out how best to manage it. This is where the fun of 4wding comes in in my mind.
@@MadMatt4WD definitely
What if it still rolls down even if you stall it for engine brake. Or is that not possible?
Assuming the vehicle is in good order it should lock the wheels. At this point you may still slide back but then the management is very sketchy.
Is it normal to have to put all my weight on my brake when parked on a steep incline. Triton auto and engine running.
It was scary, felt like it wasn't holding me unless I forced the brake pedal like crazy.
Usually you do need some force but it shouldn’t be extreme.
Manual Jimny 2020 here. Cant start it without using the clutch pedal :-/
Another reason modern cars suck. You can probably modify it if you wished
I found telling people that stalling a car is safe caused more disbelief than telling them to start a car in gear without clutch.
I can imagine
Some vehicles will not start with the clutch out. Older ones probably will.
Yes I should have mentioned that
Why not put the auto on P - doesn't this provide engine break ?
Autos use a “parking pawl” when you place the tranny in park. Over time they wear out and it could fail, particularly if it’s had a hard life. That’s why you should always engage your handbrake first when parking on an incline and then place the tranny in park. If you don’t, you will feel the car lurch back a bit as the pawl takes hold. This puts pressure on it over time and could lead to failure.
Not engine brake because it’s a parking pawls in the gearbox but In this case we want to go back right away. If your parking to get out of the car it would be good to go to park. If you engage park on a steep climb it can be very hard to get it out of park and or you can overload the parking pawl causing damage.
There is no physical contact with an automatic transmission to the engine. It's all fluid. When in park there's a pin in the transmission that engages with the transmission housing to lock it up. They are not really that strong. On a steep hill that pin can stick pretty hard, making shifting out of park very difficult. Possibly hard enough to break or bend linkage.
Always make sure the emergency brake can hold the vehicle on a steep hill before putting it in park.
tnx@@MadMatt4WD
tnx@@NismoXero
Left foot on the brake, right foot on the accelerator. How do the cave men do it?
Not good if you own n70 lux brakes and hand brake are useless