Another really good reason to use found steel is for practise actually making a knife - not much point ruining a bar of 440c if you don't have your skills developed enough to use it for a well made knife.
Correct! How many times have we seen knife makers say people's first knives will be crap? That isn't because of the steel used or even the tempering of that steel, but because of the basics of craftsmanship and the skills needed to FORM the knife. It is also why many knife makers use things like railroad spikes to perfect their basic skills. Another good use for mystery steel is when you use it to create Damascus but will use that steel as the outer sections of san-mai blades (where there are three layers like a sandwich, with the inner steel being the steel that forms the actual cutting edge of the blade). You can really stretch out your "good steel" this way, as well as produce quality knives with visual character that are highly desirable. We have seen many videos of this done by knife makers so that they can incorporate a steel of special value to the end customer (such as using steel from an heirloom or sentimental item/structure), but wanting to make sure that end knife can actually do what a knife is supposed to do (cut, and hold an edge). Yes, there are many reasons for using mystery steels. But some makers just don't like to use them. I have found though, that the vast majority of knife makers will at one point or another work with them for one reason or another, and frankly, if the knife is good..... it is good. If it is bad, it does not matter how "good" the steel was that they used.
Probably the best coverage of this issue that I have ever seen. Excellent resource! I would love to see a follow up video that shows the next step. For example, let's say I find a large supply of a mystery steel, spark test it and see that it is high carbon and worth using, now I would move on to test a variety of heat treating regimes to see what works and doesn't work with that steel. e.g. oil versus water quench, immediate quench or soak at heat for 10 mins, 1, 2, or 3 normalization cycles and record the results: did the steel fully harden? (just a file test no fancy equipment), break testing the pieces each time to examine the grain structure (fine versus coarse). This would make a great video, but I know it would be a lot of work.
you nailed it with the bit at the end. i have learned alot with mystery steels. i spark test, forge it, then try oil then water quench, then i know what i am working with. I also go for stuff that i can grab multiples of so im not wasting my time for a single piece
Great summary. I especially like the stills you showed of many of them. When I first got started in knife making (senior independent shop project in HS), I bought a bunch of knife steel (440C) from a local knifemaker. I wish I would have sparked it before making the knife out of it, as when I heat-treated it, the edge basically burnt away - it was really cold roll. Made it all by hand and shudder to think how much time & work I had into that knife... :(
i have been waiting for this video forever! thank you sooooooo much for getting this up! this has legit been one of the most enlightening videos you have posted (and that says a lot cause i always learn a lot from your videos)
A customer ones gave me a part of the WW2 tank his grandfather used to serve in. It made a wonderfull knife. That's part of the craft to: steel with sentimental value to it.
man I wish there was more youtubers like walter sorrels. it seems whenever I think to myself, hey I wish I knew how to do this step the right way when knife making, he puts out a video telling me exactly what I need to know... Its as if he is spying on me
Case harden the mild steel before forging. Make a mixture of charcoal powder, table salt and flour at the ratio of 6:4:3 respectively, add little water to make a paste , then cover the mild steel with charcoal paste . let dry completely. then prepare clay paste cover the mild steel charcoal coated with clay to prevent oxidation of mild steel, let it dry. after drying put in furnace let it reaches to austenitizing temperature of almost 1450 F. Keep at this temperature for one hour to completely case hardened. carbon will defuse inside the mild steel. Depending the time you keep at that temperature more carbon will diffuse inside mild steel. Break the ceramic(clay) and charcoal coating and cool it in water. you have a hard steel. Now you can make your forging activity using the case hardened steel.
If i had access to a bunch of the same mystery steel how could i go about finding the perfect heat treatment recipe? Just trial and error and go by grain size?
Hi sir, can you vlog how to know every kind of leaf spring..how to identity if it is 1045, 1095 etc..? How to know its number if it is strong or not, to make a blade?
+Walter Sorrells i know this has nothing to do with this video,but what would you recommend to use for bearing in a folding knife? also what stainless would you recommend for it?
Hi Walter I have some standard coil springs from a Nissan Patrol is there anywhere I can find out what type of steel it is. I know there are only a half dozen steel types used in springs and most are simple heat treats, but I would prefer to take the mystery out of it before I use them.
ty for the info I was wondering can I mix the Japanese metal plates I can't remember what they are called with 15 and 20 or the other Nickel Plate metal you showed us to create Damascus
Walter, do you do anything in the way of corrosion treatment for any 1095 knives you make? or can I just make a knife from 1095 and sell it to someone (once im good enough) without worrying about corrosion?
I've been watching your videos for a while and I have a couple of questions What is the best fluid for quenching 01 steel? What would be the best grind to do on a blade?
+Nathan taylor He answers both of those in some of his other videos. Any old vegetable oil will do for O1, I use canola oil. And a flat grind is probably the best all round grind. The intended use of the knife will determine the grind. Sorry I'm not Mr. Sorrels but I hope that info helps you out.
Walter great info. You don't like low carbon steel because they won't hold an edge, but what about using it for the outside layers of San mai damascus with a high carbon center layer?
I know this is late, but others read too...... yes. That very purpose has been used by sword and knife makers for a very long time (understatement). Also low carbon steels can be useful for practicing basic knife making skills. And if you can get the steel for free (or very little cost), it is almost stupid to NOT use them for skill development. Heck, you can even work out blade shapes to be used later in "signature" knives using higher quality steels.
The Austenitic stainless steels also have the characteristic of work hardening due to the high nickel content. While that work hardening makes it obnoxious to machine, it still can't hold an edge no matter what you do.
O1 makes good knives and is easy to heat treat. the problem with O1 is tht it is usually available only as precision ground flats , which are expensive, or drill rod, which takes a lot of pounding to flatten. 5160, 80CrV2 or even 52100 might be good alternatives. Many pro bladesmiths like 52100. It makes extremely good knives, but should be normalized after forging by holding at 1700 F for ten minutes and air cooling. (This is best done in a furnace rather than a coal forge)Then it should be heated just above critical and air cooled twice to refine the grain, then held at 1500-1550 for a minute or two and oil quenched. (Knife Nerds, run by a metallurgist) he says tht quenching from 1500-1550 produces considerably better knives than quenching from just nonmagnetic.
I found a piece of "wrought iron" in the shop the other day. After breaking some teeth on a bandsaw blade, I remembered that it was a project I had started using W2 :)
I have access to an abundance of bedknives off of golf course reel mowers . I imagine that they're made of good steel but cannot find any indication of what exactly they are . where as when I research them on the Toro and Jacobson website they say they use a" high quality " carbon steel ... anyone have any info on said bed knives ?
+sea man I know I'm not Walter, but Hardox is made for toughness in industrial applications like mining....not enough carbon to get past about 51 Rockwell. You need enough carbon to get you around 55 to start holding an edge well.
Hey Walter i have a question, I am currently following an education to become a sword smith and my first sword is going to be forged in the up-coming months. now it is possible for me to make the sword out of tamahagane. i have one question about that. Does a tamahagane steel have the same chance of breaking in the quench as a regular steel like 1075? because it costs a lot more to make my blade out of tamahagane. About 600 dollars extra
5160 is the best steel period for anyone wanting a knife or sword and so I don't agree 5160 is medium carbon, its a high carbon steel....its why every knife maker wants it and has it in their stocks. Anything over .55% is a high carbon steel. Low carbon is 1045, 1030 anything .15-.45%. There's positive perks for 5160, at .60% you got enough carbon, carbon cuts and you get roughly 1% chromium so with the lessor carbon than say 01 or 1095 and a slight amount of chromium you've got a knife or sword steel that is not as susceptible to starting rust degradation when exposed to moisture. Also it flexes up to 20% which can handle massive shock resistant. This is why automobile industry uses 5155 which is leaf spring steel. I use 01 tool steel, 5160 spring steel and 80CRV2 steels. Other that I totally agree with everything else that Walter assessments just not that 5160 is a medium carbon steel. It really down plays this super popular and loved steel used by millions!
+Shadow Those steels you mentioned are made by Hitachi Metals. Is one of those the Hitachi steel he is talking about or is there a particular steel alloy that is called Hitachi steel?
Vyjk He is talking about Hitachi Blue steel which is a carbon steel made by Hitachi. The YXR7 is a different carbon steel they make and the ZDP-189 is a stainless steel they make. So not the same kind of steel used by Rockstead, but made by the same mfg and still a good quality steel.
Good steel/bad steel. Just don’t be a steel snob. Figure out what things are made of in a chart (common items) sadly we may be in a situation where collapse of society is around the corner.
I have access to an abundance of bedknives off of golf course reel mowers . I imagine that they're made of good steel but cannot find any indication of what exactly they are . where as when I research them on the Toro and Jacobson website they say they use a" high quality " carbon steel ... anyone have any info on said bed knives ?
Another really good reason to use found steel is for practise actually making a knife - not much point ruining a bar of 440c if you don't have your skills developed enough to use it for a well made knife.
Hey John, didn't expect to see you here!
well, walter is a steel guy while john is a wood guy
Correct! How many times have we seen knife makers say people's first knives will be crap? That isn't because of the steel used or even the tempering of that steel, but because of the basics of craftsmanship and the skills needed to FORM the knife. It is also why many knife makers use things like railroad spikes to perfect their basic skills.
Another good use for mystery steel is when you use it to create Damascus but will use that steel as the outer sections of san-mai blades (where there are three layers like a sandwich, with the inner steel being the steel that forms the actual cutting edge of the blade). You can really stretch out your "good steel" this way, as well as produce quality knives with visual character that are highly desirable.
We have seen many videos of this done by knife makers so that they can incorporate a steel of special value to the end customer (such as using steel from an heirloom or sentimental item/structure), but wanting to make sure that end knife can actually do what a knife is supposed to do (cut, and hold an edge).
Yes, there are many reasons for using mystery steels. But some makers just don't like to use them. I have found though, that the vast majority of knife makers will at one point or another work with them for one reason or another, and frankly, if the knife is good..... it is good. If it is bad, it does not matter how "good" the steel was that they used.
Probably the best coverage of this issue that I have ever seen. Excellent resource! I would love to see a follow up video that shows the next step. For example, let's say I find a large supply of a mystery steel, spark test it and see that it is high carbon and worth using, now I would move on to test a variety of heat treating regimes to see what works and doesn't work with that steel. e.g. oil versus water quench, immediate quench or soak at heat for 10 mins, 1, 2, or 3 normalization cycles and record the results: did the steel fully harden? (just a file test no fancy equipment), break testing the pieces each time to examine the grain structure (fine versus coarse). This would make a great video, but I know it would be a lot of work.
By far the best demonstrated video on this subject thanks for sharing
Great videos - attitude and information. Thank you
Really good demonstration of info usually only found in books, thanks for sharing
you nailed it with the bit at the end. i have learned alot with mystery steels. i spark test, forge it, then try oil then water quench, then i know what i am working with. I also go for stuff that i can grab multiples of so im not wasting my time for a single piece
Walter this was an very interesting video, your videos are excellent! Your angle to the art of knife making is innovative and inspiring. Thank you
Great summary. I especially like the stills you showed of many of them.
When I first got started in knife making (senior independent shop project in HS), I bought a bunch of knife steel (440C) from a local knifemaker. I wish I would have sparked it before making the knife out of it, as when I heat-treated it, the edge basically burnt away - it was really cold roll. Made it all by hand and shudder to think how much time & work I had into that knife... :(
springs are usually hardenable. I have some old 3/8" leaf spring stock form a f350 (I think) that is pretty good. Close to 5160 I assume.
i have been waiting for this video forever! thank you sooooooo much for getting this up! this has legit been one of the most enlightening videos you have posted (and that says a lot cause i always learn a lot from your videos)
I would have never believed this could make such an interesting topic. And yet, it did! :) Thank you for the video.
yeah, I will never use this knowledge for anything, but I watched with interest.
A customer ones gave me a part of the WW2 tank his grandfather used to serve in.
It made a wonderfull knife.
That's part of the craft to: steel with sentimental value to it.
***** Actually I have, but I'm not interested to link my youtube account to my shop. I'll think of a way and come back to you.
+Darius der Rote i would also like to see this knife if its not too much to ask
This is a really valuable video!
man I wish there was more youtubers like walter sorrels. it seems whenever I think to myself, hey I wish I knew how to do this step the right way when knife making, he puts out a video telling me exactly what I need to know... Its as if he is spying on me
Thank you for this very informational and professional video!
Interesting video Walter! Thanks for sharing!
Walter, what is a better forge for more intermediate blacksmith. Coal or propane? I have the ability to do both.
When are you making the karambit?
Question are all food utensil steels equal to surgical steel???? How do you measure the bendability of a particular steel
Could you increase the carbon content of a mild steel through forging?
+Pilch Plays Not sure if this is possible or not.. but even if it is, it would not be easy and it would not be worth it.
Case harden the mild steel before forging. Make a mixture of charcoal powder, table salt and flour at the ratio of 6:4:3 respectively, add little water to make a paste , then cover the mild steel with charcoal paste . let dry completely. then prepare clay paste cover the mild steel charcoal coated with clay to prevent oxidation of mild steel, let it dry. after drying put in furnace let it reaches to austenitizing temperature of almost 1450 F. Keep at this temperature for one hour to completely case hardened. carbon will defuse inside the mild steel. Depending the time you keep at that temperature more carbon will diffuse inside mild steel. Break the ceramic(clay) and charcoal coating and cool it in water. you have a hard steel. Now you can make your forging activity using the case hardened steel.
If i had access to a bunch of the same mystery steel how could i go about finding the perfect heat treatment recipe? Just trial and error and go by grain size?
Hi sir, can you vlog how to know every kind of leaf spring..how to identity if it is 1045, 1095 etc..? How to know its number if it is strong or not, to make a blade?
What kind of steel
are nails and spikes
very good informative video Walter. keep up the good work. thanks.
I didn't count it out. But how many types of steel (besides mild) did you just cover?
Thank you sir, this has been immensely helpful.
+Walter Sorrells i know this has nothing to do with this video,but what would you recommend to use for bearing in a folding knife? also what stainless would you recommend for it?
Great video I haven't seen really anyone make a fillet knife I was wondering for the fishing enthusiasts if you might be able to do so.
What is the best steel to forge a knife?
Where did you get hitachi blue at? ive searched high and low and have come up dry.
Where can one buy white steel and how much better is it than o1 or 1095
Hi Walter I have some standard coil springs from a Nissan Patrol is there anywhere I can find out what type of steel it is. I know there are only a half dozen steel types used in springs and most are simple heat treats, but I would prefer to take the mystery out of it before I use them.
ty for the info I was wondering can I mix the Japanese metal plates I can't remember what they are called with 15 and 20 or the other Nickel Plate metal you showed us to create Damascus
Walter, do you do anything in the way of corrosion treatment for any 1095 knives you make? or can I just make a knife from 1095 and sell it to someone (once im good enough) without worrying about corrosion?
I stick to known steel from knifemaking places or older quality brand metal files.
Good info and interesting just the same.
I've been watching your videos for a while and I have a couple of questions
What is the best fluid for quenching 01 steel?
What would be the best grind to do on a blade?
+Nathan taylor He answers both of those in some of his other videos. Any old vegetable oil will do for O1, I use canola oil. And a flat grind is probably the best all round grind. The intended use of the knife will determine the grind. Sorry I'm not Mr. Sorrels but I hope that info helps you out.
muy buen video Mr Walter. muy interesante
What do you think about 2083 stainless steel?
Walter great info. You don't like low carbon steel because they won't hold an edge, but what about using it for the outside layers of San mai damascus with a high carbon center layer?
I know this is late, but others read too...... yes. That very purpose has been used by sword and knife makers for a very long time (understatement). Also low carbon steels can be useful for practicing basic knife making skills. And if you can get the steel for free (or very little cost), it is almost stupid to NOT use them for skill development. Heck, you can even work out blade shapes to be used later in "signature" knives using higher quality steels.
The Austenitic stainless steels also have the characteristic of work hardening due to the high nickel content. While that work hardening makes it obnoxious to machine, it still can't hold an edge no matter what you do.
what steel are the best for bushcraft knife for you?
O1 makes good knives and is easy to heat treat. the problem with O1 is tht it is usually available only as precision ground flats , which are expensive, or drill rod, which takes a lot of pounding to flatten. 5160, 80CrV2 or even 52100 might be good alternatives. Many pro bladesmiths like 52100. It makes extremely good knives, but should be normalized after forging by holding at 1700 F for ten minutes and air cooling. (This is best done in a furnace rather than a coal forge)Then it should be heated just above critical and air cooled twice to refine the grain, then held at 1500-1550 for a minute or two and oil quenched. (Knife Nerds, run by a metallurgist) he says tht quenching from 1500-1550 produces considerably better knives than quenching from just nonmagnetic.
The coil spring that I was cutting had sparks that look like 1045, chromoly or some medium carbon alloy. Not the hardest alloy ever.
I found a piece of "wrought iron" in the shop the other day. After breaking some teeth on a bandsaw blade, I remembered that it was a project I had started using W2 :)
oops...Hey you gonna finish the serpent in the sword?
+Joseph Rector yes :)
Thanks Walter great videos. Could I please get more info on why not 316 SS.
simply put it can't be heat treated (hardened) therefore will always be too soft for a knife and won't retain an edge
Great source of info, Walter. What is the most finicky steel that you have worked with?
The lighting during the talking part seems different to your ohter videos. a bit more blue/colder.
This is a really good video man.
Great tips! Thanks.
I have access to an abundance of bedknives off of golf course reel mowers . I imagine that they're made of good steel but cannot find any indication of what exactly they are . where as when I research them on the Toro and Jacobson website they say they use a" high quality " carbon steel ... anyone have any info on said bed knives ?
damn... doesnt the steel get hot after that much sanding?
Very helpful!
hi water ; what about hardox steel ; is it eny good ?
+sea man I know I'm not Walter, but Hardox is made for toughness in industrial applications like mining....not enough carbon to get past about 51 Rockwell. You need enough carbon to get you around 55 to start holding an edge well.
Walter, any thoughts about heat treating wrenches turned into karambits? Spark tested like 1075.
Chrome vanadium is the best if you have it at hand.
Helped alot, love your videos, thanks for your time
Hey Walter i have a question, I am currently following an education to become a sword smith and my first sword is going to be forged in the up-coming months. now it is possible for me to make the sword out of tamahagane. i have one question about that. Does a tamahagane steel have the same chance of breaking in the quench as a regular steel like 1075? because it costs a lot more to make my blade out of tamahagane. About 600 dollars extra
+Jores Van Wensen Tamahagane is about as likely to break in the quench, yes.
5160 is the best steel period for anyone wanting a knife or sword and so I don't agree 5160 is medium carbon, its a high carbon steel....its why every knife maker wants it and has it in their stocks. Anything over .55% is a high carbon steel. Low carbon is 1045, 1030 anything .15-.45%. There's positive perks for 5160, at .60% you got enough carbon, carbon cuts and you get roughly 1% chromium so with the lessor carbon than say 01 or 1095 and a slight amount of chromium you've got a knife or sword steel that is not as susceptible to starting rust degradation when exposed to moisture. Also it flexes up to 20% which can handle massive shock resistant. This is why automobile industry uses 5155 which is leaf spring steel. I use 01 tool steel, 5160 spring steel and 80CRV2 steels. Other that I totally agree with everything else that Walter assessments just not that 5160 is a medium carbon steel. It really down plays this super popular and loved steel used by millions!
Please post a picture of Kenny.
nice job
can you make a knive with aluminium
how about steel from a truck leaf spring? say around 35 years old? from the 80's?
Great video!
Brilliant infos (no pun intended ;-), and nice video as always. Thank you!
You should try and be on the show Forged in Fire
He was.
The high carbon steels mostly look like fireworks to me while the low carbon steels look like shooting stars.
thanks for the video
very helpful
Cool!
can't wait until I have a sorrells knife
That Hitachi steel... is that the kind of steel Rockstead knives are made from?
+Vyjk Rockstead makes knives from YXR7 and ZDP-189
+Shadow Those steels you mentioned are made by Hitachi Metals. Is one of those the Hitachi steel he is talking about or is there a particular steel alloy that is called Hitachi steel?
Vyjk He is talking about Hitachi Blue steel which is a carbon steel made by Hitachi. The YXR7 is a different carbon steel they make and the ZDP-189 is a stainless steel they make. So not the same kind of steel used by Rockstead, but made by the same mfg and still a good quality steel.
nice
My Uncle Kenny never gave me anything except roofies. I never figured out why.
it's like the 4th of July
Cousin Kenny. 😂
1
Do you realise you are a metal scientist?
lol, sparky sparks.
Good steel/bad steel. Just don’t be a steel snob. Figure out what things are made of in a chart (common items) sadly we may be in a situation where collapse of society is around the corner.
50th
I have access to an abundance of bedknives off of golf course reel mowers . I imagine that they're made of good steel but cannot find any indication of what exactly they are . where as when I research them on the Toro and Jacobson website they say they use a" high quality " carbon steel ... anyone have any info on said bed knives ?
*good steel for knife making . that is .
+Daniel Bernier Grind out a 5" by 1" section, heat it, water quench and see if it hardens.