Their view of God is not High enough. They can't fathom God giving us free will and still be able to have His perfect will accomplished. We can only be predetermined robots. They claim a higher view of God but I find that to be untrue.
The review is rooted in the scripture. The so called high view of god is a philosophical view imposed on this scripture. If you really understand that god is completely outside of time, you will finally understand romans chapter eight through ten as one continuous discussion. Those whom he forknew he also predestined... read carefully and understand in context, without just reading one verse. God predestined us because He knows everything that will happen or could happen. Therefore, He predestined those who would chose Him. He used His foreknowledge of what we call the future. God has no future. For Him, it is all the eternal present.
Dr. Flowers is my guy! His videos kept me from going down the road of Calvinism a few years ago and his resources have helped me show people the flaws in Calvinism. Very thankful to have found him and grateful for his misnistry!
@@toolegittoquit_001 The world will know we are disciples of Jesus by our love for one another, not by how pious and correct about theological systems we are
@@toolegittoquit_001 How very James White of you . This is not a compliment by far . Also, a theology that describes YHWH as Muslims describe their allah is well, blasphemy and that is the blasphemy you're guilty of if you're a consistent calvinist.
Amazing interview. I wish this brother and Your Calvinist would just chill regularly with Flowers and crew. So much better than formal debates that are “one and done.” The fellowship vibe is appealing because it lacks the emotional and defensive posture that debates often times produce. As a non-Calvinist I have much respect for their friendship to Flowers and humility. ❤
I love that you are able to have guest on like this even if you disagree. It's so important to love each other in the body if Christ. Also I have learned so much through leightons ministry!! God bless you both for being great examples of Christ love to eachother.
The following 2 verses prove Calvinism is false: “you were also RAISED WITH HIM THROUGH FAITH in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He MADE YOU ALIVE together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,” Colossians 2:12-13 These verses say 4 things: 1 FAITH precedes being raised to LIFE from the dead 2 This happens while we are dead in our sins and when we are ungodly. 3 This happens before God spiritually circumcises us and frees us from our bondage to the flesh and sin. 4 This says/means: ungodly humans - who are spiritually dead in their sins - and who are uncircumcised and are thus still in bondage to their flesh/sin CAN HAVE FAITH. People dead in their sins HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE FAITH. FAITH is a prerequisite to being raised from the dead/made alive. Faith precedes being raised to new life (being born again). Life comes after/through faith. Faith comes before life. But Calvinists say we get life first to be able to have faith (to then be made alive again). But this text clearly says we are dead when God makes us alive - that rules out the Calvinist regenerated life. This is a verse saying dead people who are in bondage to sin can have faith. James White tries to say the circumcision in verse 11 is Calvinistic regeneration: “and IN HIM you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” Colossians 2:11-12 But it can’t be because: verses 12-13 say we are made alive (through faith) while we are still uncircumcised - i.e. faith and life come **BEFORE** circumcision. And verse 11 clearly says the circumcision happens IN HIM - and that would mean Calvinists are saying you get IN CHRIST before being regenerated. And Ephesians 1:13 says we are only sealed IN HIM after we believe: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,” Ephesians 1:13
These verses say 4 things: 1 FAITH precedes being raised to LIFE from the dead (Where ...........)(faith is a GIFT .... and you did not GIFT yourself ...... it came from GOD ) 2 This happens while we are dead in our sins and when we are ungodly. (HOW do the dead do anything but be dead) ............ 3 This happens before God spiritually circumcises us and frees us from our bondage to the flesh and sin. (HOW do the dead do anything but be dead) ............ 4 This says/means: ungodly humans - who are spiritually dead in their sins - and who are uncircumcised and are thus still in bondage to their flesh/sin CAN HAVE FAITH. People dead in their sins HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE FAITH. (SLAVES DO NOT free themselves from their bondage ....... your statements make no logical sense)
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Hello friend, May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly. You ask me where it says certain things. I have to refer you back to those 2 verses. It’s only 2 verses - so it won’t take long to read. It says all those things VERY CLEARLY. I’ve shown those verses to many Calvinists and you are the first one to ever try to ludicrously say it doesn’t say those things. Talk about denial. Also: Endlessly repeating that dead people can’t do anything won’t help you: Jesus said the prodigal son was dead in Luke 15:32 but the prodigal son managed to formulate a plan to go back and apologise to his father and then he managed to walk a long way back all while being dead. Also in Revelation 3:1 Jesus calls the believers at the church in Sardis dead but also immediately tells them to do things. Jesus seems to think they can do things even though he calls them dead.
@@slash903Hello friend, May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly. You are referring to Romans 8:5-9 - but you’ve doubly misunderstood what it’s saying. Let me explain your first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what you think it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem. If it means what you think, then according to you verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us. BUT completely contrary to your supposition: The following verses are all explicitly clear that we receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith: “This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? … So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?” Galatians 3:2, 5 - “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” Galatians 3:13-14 - “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” Ephesians 1:13 That’s a huge self-defeating problem for you - because you’re saying you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we believe. Who’s wrong: you or Scripture? I’ve never seen a Calvinist claim that the Spirit comes to dwell inside us or is given to us during the Calvinistic ‘regeneration’ (because Scripture is so clear that we are only given the Spirit AFTER we have faith/believe). Therefore - please explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them??? Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to you, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith. ??????????????????? According to you, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we are only given the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith. Your mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating. You also have another problem because the following verse explains that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given: “The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” John 7:38-39 So therefore, according to your mistaken interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith) So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given??? Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given: “But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?”” John 7:31 Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them? "Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34 And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52 "Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22 ''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48 According to you and your interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them. ---- I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I don’t mean this rudely, but you obviously don’t. So, as for your second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - I’ll just say this for now: read the passage again but in the CEV translation: “People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.” Romans 8:5-10 CEV What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God. Also: please think - if that passage meant what you think it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone. If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not. Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith??? Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
@michaelmichael-ci8hi "how do the dead do anything but be dead?" Yes, how do dead men commit sin? How do dead men offend God? How do dead men choose death? How do dead men practice the occult? How then can dead men be blamed for remaining dead? How can they be punished for the inability to commit any acts against God since dead people can't do anything except be dead? Please do your best to avoid the philosophical fallacy of just appealing to the "God can do as He pleases" statement. Of course, God can do as He pleases. He is not pleased by injustice so He would not act unjustly. It is not His will that any should perish, therefore, He would take no pleasure in condemning people without giving them a legitimate choice. God takes no pleasure in deceit and He does not lie; therefore, He would not say to choose life or death if no choice was actually available. Come... let us reason together.
Every time I listen to Flowers talk about Calvinism, and Provisionism, I'm reminded that without God's effective Grace, giving me a new heart, I would never have believed in Him!
John 1:9. Our gracious God gives a measure of grace to EVERYONE born of Adam’s race. If they respond to that light, they are given more light. Jesus came as the “Second Adam” to -one might say- undo what the first Adam did. He is the propitiation for our sins-and not for ours only, but for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
@@lindahartranft9135 His grace is given freely, not because of an act, or a desire of the will of man, but because of the will and purpose of the Father.
@@Given119 God commanded us 85 times in The Old and New Testaments to seek after Him. Seeing as how we’re intelligent, responsive beings made in God’s image, we have the capacity to respond. That fact is self-evident, even without The Bible. God desires that ALL men be saved. Not a handful. That’s not what The Bible says. It says all. Therefore, we can accept or reject God’s gift of salvation. We can place our trust in Him, as He commanded us to do on 85 separate occasions, or we can stumble alone in the dark, trying to rely on ourselves.
It’s sad how many in here don’t truly know Gods word. The doctrine of election is such a beautiful story of Gods love towards His son and vise versa. People are so wrapped up in their carnal flesh that they can’t submit to Gods word. SMH
I have listened to Leighton as a gift from the Lord starting 6 years ago to a confused me and a somewhat distraught me. Raised in Dallas Seminary circles, I guess it was explained to me that except for the L in Tulip, Calvinism is pretty much a correct way of seeing things, but it messed me up. I could hardly ask my questions because I felt so dumb and out of sync with the scholarly ones who taught Calvinism with such confidence. Not only that, but in many teachings, Calvinist thought is woven in with no real addressing of the inconsistencies with basic gospel-enlightening verses. One example of a hard question for me was, "If I pray for an unbeliever to be saved, isn't that praying against God's will if that one is not elect?" I was afraid to make people stumble concerning Scriptures like " He has mercy on those whom He will have mercy," etc. I gave up reading and thinking on it, and prayed that if it was important for me to understand, the Lord would bring the right info to me: Praise my kind Lord God: youtube gave me Soteriology 101, A good friend gave us The Augustinian Roots of Calvinism by Ken Wilson, and a scholarly peer review paper on that book, and What Love is This, by Dave Hunt (I found that one in an obscure place). 9 months of reading with my husband left me way more at peace. Way more. Now my struggle is with the "so called Lordship Salvation" which seems connected with Calvinism vs. FREE grace. Final Destiny by Dillow (I have it...but whoa getting my brain and heart around it is a challenge for sure. So grateful for believers willing to help the body by teaching what God meant in His beautiful, glorious Word.
Yes, God is love. He is merciful. He provided salvation to all who believed in him. His salvation is not of our will or work! It's all his work. We just have to believe in HIS work.
@@Jebron_G You missed the part where it doesn't depend on human will. According to an arminian view To believe in his work is part of man's will to BELIEVE, we're saying your decision to believe is part of God's will and would only come about through his transformative work on you. Will means your intentions that come from your preferences. Can you spontaneously force yourself to like something you hate? Do you DETERMINE your will or preferences or do you rather DISCOVER it? You can't just stop your thinking at just "I believe" that's why I'm saved. You have to dig deeper than that and ask WHY do you believe what you believe? Were you just smarter, more wise, more humble than the atheist? If so, then that's the defining characteristic that saves, so you would have to admit that something INNATE IN YOU caused you to believe, not God. Because God could do all the work but it be for naught if you simply reject him. The determining factor for salvation at that point is YOU based on the arminian view. The calvinist view is saying that your ability to believe, is a gift from God, read Ephesians 2:8-9 for it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God so that no one may boast. Even faith itself, the bible says faith is NOT FROM YOURSELVES. Read the bible for what it says please. You may have bible verses that you come up with that seem to imply that we choose God or that we're responsible for our beliefs, but you have to reconcile the entirety of the bible, and not simply cherry pick the ones that support your view. Which view reconciles and explains reality the best? If you view the verses that seem to imply that you have a choice, with the understanding and context that it's referring to those that are saved, it doesn't contradict because those verses are simply addressing the believers. If you view the verses that says no one seeks God unless the father draws him with the lense that we are able to seek God on our initiative that's a clear contradiction that can't be reconciled. How do you say we can believe in our own initiative when the bible directly says no one seeks God unless the father draws them, or that we love because God loved us first? You can't have it both ways, either the bible means what it says that we love because God loved us first, or no one seeks God unless the father draws us, OR the bible is wrong and you can have your view saying that we can choose to believe God without direct influence from him.
@Raz0rIG God's will is whoever believes shall not perish! John 3 16 In Deutoronomy 30:19 I have set before you life and death. Choose life. Clearly choosing depends on man's will And many many more verses that put the full responsibility on man's side. However, It's not actually man's will or faith that merits salvation. Rather, God chooses to merit salvation to those who believe according to his mercy and no one said they deserve it. Your presuppositions and premise are backward. Faith is not work! Faith is believing in HIS work!! Faith is internal, and it does not lead to boasting. Works on the other hand are external, and works cause man to boast. Faith is letting go of works! If his decree is to have mercy on those who let go of works, who are you to question his decision? So yes I agree it does not depend on who was born first or mans tradition or works or even will. You need to read in the right context and not bring in your context to the text.
@Raz0rIG let me give you an example to make my point easier to understand. If you owe 1 million dollars and the judge out of his mercy asked you to just show up in court and pay nothing and you're debt free!! Who set you free? Your showing up in the court or the judge's mercy to wipe all your debt away? The thief on the cross! What saved him? His final words and faith or Jesus's mercy? Did your faith in Christ merit your salvation? Or was it God's mercy?
Read Romans 4:1-8 God has no obligation to save someone just because they believe. Even James points out that believing doesn’t make you anything special. So do the demons and they tremble
Can a Calvinist assist me with this question? Can a person enter heaven if he does not go to a reformed church or believe reformed doctrine? Thank you in advance and please make your answer short and to the point.
Friend, your basis of being accepted by God is the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ and having your sins forgiven when the punishment due to your sins is imputed on Him when He was crucified. But how do you have the imputation of righteousness? By the vehicle called ' faith' . But how can a spirituality dead sinner can have faith when he is dead in sin? So, God alone must do the work by the regenerating works of the Holy Spirit. So, going to heaven has nothing to do with going to a Reformed church. Reformed churches only explain from the Word of God , how God grace is extended to spiritually dead sinners. So, our acceptance by God is wholly the grace of God and nothing else. If by going to a Reformed Church, then our " going " contribute to our acceptance by God . And if this is a contribution by our effort, then it is no longer the grace of God but our works. Do feel free to ask if the above explanation needed further clarification.
Leighton doesn't seem like the type of guy to get offended if someone forgets the title. Despite his doctorate he thinks of himself as a popularizer of scholars rather than a scholar himself even despite his degree; he has humility.
Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”
@@gdot9046 Without Christ existing and showing his love for me by dying on the cross to show us *HE IS LOVE* no I won't believe in him if he didn't do this
We read the same verses. We just have different interpretations of them. Christians who reject Calvinism aren’t any more Biblically illiterate than well-studied Calvinists. They simply come away from the same text with different understandings of the same passage. For example: A Calvinist reads Romans 9 and sees Election of a particular people for Salvation. A non-Calvinist reads Romans 9 and sees that God judicially hardened Israel just like Pharaoh in order to make the Gospel available to the Gentiles by Israel’s rejection of it’s Messiah.
@@GhostBearCommander you either have GODS INTERPRETATION ..... or you believe lies ............... there is no interpretation of any value other than what GOD has determined .............
@@darthnocturnis3941 Yes and some people are DETERMINED to hold false beliefs that shouldn't be a gotcha to the calvinist but really a warning to anyone (calvinist included) who thinks they have the right interpretation about anything, not just about salvation. God has created some for noble purposes and some for destruction. Some are DETERMINED to never believe and some are DETERMINED to believe and this is God's will, not OURS. You better pray that it's God's will you have the right interpretation and to have the holy spirit guide you. In fact anytime we pray, we aren't changing God's will when we ask for anything. We pray because it changes US, not God. God's will will be done, NOT OURS. If whether someone is saved is based on someone's performance or ability to understand the gospel, then it's not based on God's doing but based on the intrinsic quality in that person. Whether they were too prideful or not intelligent enough to understand. We understand that some people are born short, tall, and in between, same with personalities and other intrinsic traits, dispositions and perspectives on life. We can make choices, but those choices are enslaved to our preferences. You can't escape that every decision or action you make is based on your preferences. How you like to interpret the world around you, you believe you're making the optimal choice for yourself at that point in time with limited knowledge, because otherwise why would you make a suboptimal choice IF you were aware of it? Some people value studying vs partying, even though we know the benefits of doing hard work before playing, some value the short term rewards over the long term and they will consistently choose that until life circumstances change and shape them, but that's not you CONTROLLING your preferences but your preferences being shaped by circumstance and life experiences. So again, you're enslaved to your preferences, never will you be able to spontaneously force yourself to like something you don't. Does a lion want to force itself to eat veggies vs meat? No the lion's nature will always prefer meat, likewise humans have a sin nature that prefers sin over God. Unless God changes our nature.
Even John Calvin stated that you can't believe in the doctrine of election without also believing in the doctrine of reprobation. It's a logical consequence. If the only ones who are saved are those who God chose then it's logically necessary that those who are not saved were chosen by God to reject Him. You can't suggest "You have free will to reject God but not to accept Him."; that's like flipping a coin and saying "heads I win, tails you lose."
Such a terrible inference. You are generally stating that no one is able to testify truthfully about their past unless it lines up with the present condition. A born-again Christian was never an atheist, because he is presently a Christian. Clearly, no proof that he was an atheist and therefore he was not. That's quite literally the application of your logic here and it just holds no water.
How is he "on his way"? He's had a pretty stable expressed position for 6-8 years, and with coined terminology for 5 or so. In that time he's argued AGAINST open theism and had open theists on and shown where they disagree when relevant. What I think trips people up is he doesn't treat open theists like heretics, and he let's them talk. His perspective on time and knowledge is akin to CS LEWIS or Boethius. And he's amiable to but unconvinced by Molinism. There's been zero slide to open theism.
There is actually a full sermon of him preaching Calvinism. So yeah, there is proof of him previously being a Calvinist. Not that anyone needed that. What happened to giving the benefit of the doubt? Or believing one's word? Are you calling a brother in Christ a liar just because you disagree with him? I would be careful with that, God doesn't treat this kind of behaviour amongst the church lightly.
Wow, accusation without proof, and with proof to the opposite available. Calvinist smearing anyone who disagrees with them? And if he does go to Open Theism, wouldn't that have been determined by God from eternity past if we have no free will and everything is controlled and determined by God, as Calvinists claim?
I have studied a lot of theology. I don't just take whatever theologians have determined. If you really study this scripture yourself from cover to cover, You will see that a lot of what he says is very accurate. I am not saying I completely agree with him, But you just dismiss him means that you have to do the work yourself. You can not just refer to a theologian like a John Piper to dismiss him.
@@AppalachiaTN From Merriam-Webster: "Sovereign has everything to do with power. It often describes a person who has supreme power or authority, such as a king or queen. God is described as "sovereign" in a number of Bible translations. In addition to describing ones who have power, the word sovereign also often describes power: to have sovereign power is to have absolute power-that is, power that cannot be checked by anyone or anything"
@@CosmicalChrist The point in my response was twofold: 1) God is both love and sovereign (among so many other of his attributes) simultaneously. His attributes don’t have a sequence nor ranking. 2) “Sovereign” encompasses both power and authority. However, nowhere in the definition does it equate it with meticulous determination.
@@AppalachiaTN Calvinists definition of sovereign means "GOD controls everything". I'm simply pointing out that's not the definition of sovereign. My initial question "Is GOD sovereign or loving *FIRST* " Doesn't denote a either or. It's in relation to his relationship with man from the beginning. Did GOD first show his love or his power to man?
Dr. Flowers is a blessing from the Lord!!!!!!!
Prove it
And by the way I love leighton.
Their view of God is not High enough. They can't fathom God giving us free will and still be able to have His perfect will accomplished. We can only be predetermined robots. They claim a higher view of God but I find that to be untrue.
The review is rooted in the scripture. The so called high view of god is a philosophical view imposed on this scripture. If you really understand that god is completely outside of time, you will finally understand romans chapter eight through ten as one continuous discussion. Those whom he forknew he also predestined... read carefully and understand in context, without just reading one verse. God predestined us because He knows everything that will happen or could happen. Therefore, He predestined those who would chose Him. He used His foreknowledge of what we call the future. God has no future. For Him, it is all the eternal present.
@@brianschmidt704 you understand I was talking about Calvinist when saying there view is not high enough....
@@travissharon1536 just fixed it..
Love Dr Flowers. He makes things so clear and deals with the contradictions that calvin's followers present.
Dr. Flowers is my guy! His videos kept me from going down the road of Calvinism a few years ago and his resources have helped me show people the flaws in Calvinism. Very thankful to have found him and grateful for his misnistry!
Provisionalism is, well, stupid.
My God is Sovereign. Sorry about yours ...
Sovereign doesn’t mean Omni-Deterministic.
The problem with Calvinism is that it re-defines Sovereignty.
@@toolegittoquit_001. Too bad your impotent little wimpy god wouldn’t know what to do if he gave man a free will!! Pathetic!
@@toolegittoquit_001 The world will know we are disciples of Jesus by our love for one another, not by how pious and correct about theological systems we are
@@toolegittoquit_001
How very James White of you . This is not a compliment by far . Also, a theology that describes YHWH as Muslims describe their allah is well, blasphemy and that is the blasphemy you're guilty of if you're a consistent calvinist.
Amazing interview. I wish this brother and Your Calvinist would just chill regularly with Flowers and crew. So much better than formal debates that are “one and done.” The fellowship vibe is appealing because it lacks the emotional and defensive posture that debates often times produce. As a non-Calvinist I have much respect for their friendship to Flowers and humility. ❤
I love that you are able to have guest on like this even if you disagree. It's so important to love each other in the body if Christ. Also I have learned so much through leightons ministry!! God bless you both for being great examples of Christ love to eachother.
The following 2 verses prove Calvinism is false:
“you were also RAISED WITH HIM THROUGH FAITH in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He MADE YOU ALIVE together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,”
Colossians 2:12-13
These verses say 4 things:
1
FAITH precedes being raised to LIFE from the dead
2
This happens while we are dead in our sins and when we are ungodly.
3
This happens before God spiritually circumcises us and frees us from our bondage to the flesh and sin.
4
This says/means: ungodly humans - who are spiritually dead in their sins - and who are uncircumcised and are thus still in bondage to their flesh/sin CAN HAVE FAITH. People dead in their sins HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE FAITH.
FAITH is a prerequisite to being raised from the dead/made alive.
Faith precedes being raised to new life (being born again).
Life comes after/through faith.
Faith comes before life.
But Calvinists say we get life first to be able to have faith (to then be made alive again).
But this text clearly says we are dead when God makes us alive - that rules out the Calvinist regenerated life.
This is a verse saying dead people who are in bondage to sin can have faith.
James White tries to say the circumcision in verse 11 is Calvinistic regeneration:
“and IN HIM you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”
Colossians 2:11-12
But it can’t be because:
verses 12-13 say we are made alive (through faith) while we are still uncircumcised - i.e. faith and life come **BEFORE** circumcision.
And verse 11 clearly says the circumcision happens IN HIM - and that would mean Calvinists are saying you get IN CHRIST before being regenerated.
And Ephesians 1:13 says we are only sealed IN HIM
after we believe:
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
These verses say 4 things:
1
FAITH precedes being raised to LIFE from the dead (Where ...........)(faith is a GIFT .... and you did not GIFT yourself ...... it came from GOD )
2
This happens while we are dead in our sins and when we are ungodly. (HOW do the dead do anything but be dead) ............
3
This happens before God spiritually circumcises us and frees us from our bondage to the flesh and sin. (HOW do the dead do anything but be dead) ............
4
This says/means: ungodly humans - who are spiritually dead in their sins - and who are uncircumcised and are thus still in bondage to their flesh/sin CAN HAVE FAITH. People dead in their sins HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE FAITH. (SLAVES DO NOT free themselves from their bondage ....... your statements make no logical sense)
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Hello friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
You ask me where it says certain things.
I have to refer you back to those 2 verses.
It’s only 2 verses - so it won’t take long to read.
It says all those things VERY CLEARLY.
I’ve shown those verses to many Calvinists and you are the first one to ever try to ludicrously say it doesn’t say those things.
Talk about denial.
Also:
Endlessly repeating that dead people can’t do anything won’t help you:
Jesus said the prodigal son was dead in Luke 15:32 but the prodigal son managed to formulate a plan to go back and apologise to his father and then he managed to walk a long way back all while being dead.
Also in Revelation 3:1 Jesus calls the believers at the church in Sardis dead but also immediately tells them to do things.
Jesus seems to think they can do things even though he calls them dead.
Is exercising faith pleasing to God? If so, those in the flesh cannot do it. Only those regenerated by God and gifted faith can exercise it.
@@slash903Hello friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
You are referring to Romans 8:5-9 - but you’ve doubly misunderstood what it’s saying.
Let me explain your first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what you think it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem.
If it means what you think, then according to you verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us.
BUT completely contrary to your supposition:
The following verses are all explicitly clear that we receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith:
“This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
…
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”
Galatians 3:2, 5
-
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14
-
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
That’s a huge self-defeating problem for you - because you’re saying you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we believe.
Who’s wrong: you or Scripture?
I’ve never seen a Calvinist claim that the Spirit comes to dwell inside us or is given to us during the Calvinistic ‘regeneration’ (because Scripture is so clear that we are only given the Spirit AFTER we have faith/believe).
Therefore - please explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them???
Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to you, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith.
???????????????????
According to you, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we are only given the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith.
Your mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating.
You also have another problem because the following verse explains that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given:
“The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
John 7:38-39
So therefore, according to your mistaken interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith)
So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given???
Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given:
“But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?””
John 7:31
Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
"Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34
And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52
"Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22
''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48
According to you and your interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them.
----
I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I don’t mean this rudely, but you obviously don’t.
So, as for your second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - I’ll just say this for now: read the passage again but in the CEV translation:
“People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.”
Romans 8:5-10 CEV
What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God.
Also: please think - if that passage meant what you think it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone.
If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not.
Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith???
Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
@michaelmichael-ci8hi "how do the dead do anything but be dead?" Yes, how do dead men commit sin? How do dead men offend God? How do dead men choose death? How do dead men practice the occult? How then can dead men be blamed for remaining dead? How can they be punished for the inability to commit any acts against God since dead people can't do anything except be dead?
Please do your best to avoid the philosophical fallacy of just appealing to the "God can do as He pleases" statement. Of course, God can do as He pleases. He is not pleased by injustice so He would not act unjustly. It is not His will that any should perish, therefore, He would take no pleasure in condemning people without giving them a legitimate choice. God takes no pleasure in deceit and He does not lie; therefore, He would not say to choose life or death if no choice was actually available.
Come... let us reason together.
So respectful!
Every time I listen to Flowers talk about Calvinism, and Provisionism, I'm reminded that without God's effective Grace, giving me a new heart, I would never have believed in Him!
John 1:9. Our gracious God gives a measure of grace to EVERYONE born of Adam’s race. If they respond to that light, they are given more light. Jesus came as the “Second Adam” to -one might say- undo what the first Adam did. He is the propitiation for our sins-and not for ours only, but for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
@@lindahartranft9135 His grace is given freely, not because of an act, or a desire of the will of man, but because of the will and purpose of the Father.
@@Given119Who said it wasn’t given freely?
@@Pondimus_Maximus freely meaning, it's done to them, and for them, not because of something they do, or want.
@@Given119 God commanded us 85 times in The Old and New Testaments to seek after Him. Seeing as how we’re intelligent, responsive beings made in God’s image, we have the capacity to respond. That fact is self-evident, even without The Bible. God desires that ALL men be saved. Not a handful. That’s not what The Bible says. It says all. Therefore, we can accept or reject God’s gift of salvation. We can place our trust in Him, as He commanded us to do on 85 separate occasions, or we can stumble alone in the dark, trying to rely on ourselves.
Looking forward to watching!
Leighton at the "Why Calvinism" conference reminds me of the movie Blade. He's the day walker lol.
Not familiar with this guys podcast but so appreciate his demeanor and spirit of brotherhood. How refreshing!
It’s sad how many in here don’t truly know Gods word. The doctrine of election is such a beautiful story of Gods love towards His son and vise versa. People are so wrapped up in their carnal flesh that they can’t submit to Gods word. SMH
Is there a biblical doctrine of election or is there election in the context of scripture?
@ I am not sure what your question is. The doctrine of election is laid out all throughout scripture and God is the same today as He was yesterday.
I have listened to Leighton as a gift from the Lord starting 6 years ago to a confused me and a somewhat distraught me. Raised in Dallas Seminary circles, I guess it was explained to me that except for the L in Tulip, Calvinism is pretty much a correct way of seeing things, but it messed me up. I could hardly ask my questions because I felt so dumb and out of sync with the scholarly ones who taught Calvinism with such confidence. Not only that, but in many teachings, Calvinist thought is woven in with no real addressing of the inconsistencies with basic gospel-enlightening verses. One example of a hard question for me was, "If I pray for an unbeliever to be saved, isn't that praying against God's will if that one is not elect?" I was afraid to make people stumble concerning Scriptures like " He has mercy on those whom He will have mercy," etc. I gave up reading and thinking on it, and prayed that if it was important for me to understand, the Lord would bring the right info to me: Praise my kind Lord God: youtube gave me Soteriology 101, A good friend gave us The Augustinian Roots of Calvinism by Ken Wilson, and a scholarly peer review paper on that book, and What Love is This, by Dave Hunt (I found that one in an obscure place). 9 months of reading with my husband left me way more at peace. Way more. Now my struggle is with the "so called Lordship Salvation" which seems connected with Calvinism vs. FREE grace. Final Destiny by Dillow (I have it...but whoa getting my brain and heart around it is a challenge for sure. So grateful for believers willing to help the body by teaching what God meant in His beautiful, glorious Word.
What troubles me is how any Christian becomes a Calvinist, Provisionalist, or Arminian by a person and not by Scripture alone.
When I left Calvinism, I found out my closest “friends” considered me an enemy.
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Yes, God is love. He is merciful. He provided salvation to all who believed in him. His salvation is not of our will or work! It's all his work. We just have to believe in HIS work.
@@Jebron_G You missed the part where it doesn't depend on human will. According to an arminian view To believe in his work is part of man's will to BELIEVE, we're saying your decision to believe is part of God's will and would only come about through his transformative work on you. Will means your intentions that come from your preferences. Can you spontaneously force yourself to like something you hate? Do you DETERMINE your will or preferences or do you rather DISCOVER it?
You can't just stop your thinking at just "I believe" that's why I'm saved. You have to dig deeper than that and ask WHY do you believe what you believe? Were you just smarter, more wise, more humble than the atheist? If so, then that's the defining characteristic that saves, so you would have to admit that something INNATE IN YOU caused you to believe, not God. Because God could do all the work but it be for naught if you simply reject him. The determining factor for salvation at that point is YOU based on the arminian view. The calvinist view is saying that your ability to believe, is a gift from God, read Ephesians 2:8-9 for it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God so that no one may boast. Even faith itself, the bible says faith is NOT FROM YOURSELVES. Read the bible for what it says please.
You may have bible verses that you come up with that seem to imply that we choose God or that we're responsible for our beliefs, but you have to reconcile the entirety of the bible, and not simply cherry pick the ones that support your view. Which view reconciles and explains reality the best? If you view the verses that seem to imply that you have a choice, with the understanding and context that it's referring to those that are saved, it doesn't contradict because those verses are simply addressing the believers. If you view the verses that says no one seeks God unless the father draws him with the lense that we are able to seek God on our initiative that's a clear contradiction that can't be reconciled. How do you say we can believe in our own initiative when the bible directly says no one seeks God unless the father draws them, or that we love because God loved us first? You can't have it both ways, either the bible means what it says that we love because God loved us first, or no one seeks God unless the father draws us, OR the bible is wrong and you can have your view saying that we can choose to believe God without direct influence from him.
@Raz0rIG God's will is whoever believes shall not perish!
John 3 16
In
Deutoronomy 30:19
I have set before you life and death. Choose life.
Clearly choosing depends on man's will
And many many more verses that put the full responsibility on man's side.
However,
It's not actually man's will or faith that merits salvation. Rather, God chooses to merit salvation to those who believe according to his mercy and no one said they deserve it.
Your presuppositions and premise are backward.
Faith is not work! Faith is believing in HIS work!!
Faith is internal, and it does not lead to boasting.
Works on the other hand are external, and works cause man to boast.
Faith is letting go of works!
If his decree is to have mercy on those who let go of works, who are you to question his decision?
So yes I agree it does not depend on who was born first or mans tradition or works or even will.
You need to read in the right context and not bring in your context to the text.
@Raz0rIG let me give you an example to make my point easier to understand.
If you owe 1 million dollars and the judge out of his mercy asked you to just show up in court and pay nothing and you're debt free!!
Who set you free? Your showing up in the court or the judge's mercy to wipe all your debt away?
The thief on the cross! What saved him? His final words and faith or Jesus's mercy?
Did your faith in Christ merit your salvation? Or was it God's mercy?
Read Romans 4:1-8
God has no obligation to save someone just because they believe. Even James points out that believing doesn’t make you anything special. So do the demons and they tremble
Thumbs up, because LF Soteriology 101 is in the house 🏠
You can hardly hear them, why is the sound so low, I need to keep the sound almost on maximum to hear anything!!
its more than loud enough
Probably your audio system. I put below half and hear them good.
Can a Calvinist assist me with this question? Can a person enter heaven if he does not go to a reformed church or believe reformed doctrine? Thank you in advance and please make your answer short and to the point.
Friend, your basis of being accepted by God is the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ and having your sins forgiven when the punishment due to your sins is imputed on Him when He was crucified.
But how do you have the imputation of righteousness?
By the vehicle called ' faith' .
But how can a spirituality dead sinner can have faith when he is dead in sin?
So, God alone must do the work by the regenerating works of the Holy Spirit.
So, going to heaven has nothing to do with going to a Reformed church.
Reformed churches only explain from the Word of God , how God grace is extended to spiritually dead sinners.
So, our acceptance by God is wholly the grace of God and nothing else.
If by going to a Reformed Church, then our " going " contribute to our acceptance by God .
And if this is a contribution by our effort, then it is no longer the grace of God but our works.
Do feel free to ask if the above explanation needed further clarification.
Yes of coarse. These are just titles .
Yes.
that's Dr. Leighton Flowers, not Mr. Flowers
I noticed that, too, a subtle way to devalue Dr Flowers conversation from the start.
He calls him Dr. Leighton Flowers at the end.
Leighton doesn't seem like the type of guy to get offended if someone forgets the title. Despite his doctorate he thinks of himself as a popularizer of scholars rather than a scholar himself even despite his degree; he has humility.
Troubling, narrow, and agonizing is the way of the truth, Jesus said.
Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”
Leighton head banging! 😍
18 minutes and 52 seconds is when Layton starts talking about Bible verses. I've never seen anyone who loves their own voice like Layton does.
He's being interviewed; of course he's going to talk. That's the point.
This isn't supposed to be a sermon.
Great video. Thank you!
This is as bad as those TGC debates AD commented on. Except less polyester and belly fat.
I could definitely use to lose 30lbs 😂 Thanks for watching, though!
It floors me how people believe in Calvinism based on a few men’s interpretation of the Bible. Mere men!
Radio Free Geneva.
What about it
“Without me you can do nothing” yet you believe in Christ on your own free will? No comprendo.
What a silly statement.
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421do you believe in Christ without Christ?
@@gdot9046
Without Christ existing and showing his love for me by dying on the cross to show us *HE IS LOVE* no I won't believe in him if he didn't do this
@@CosmicalChristI’m talking about the act of faith. Do you do that without Christ?
@gdot9046 that's a really stupid question . I don't mind having a conversation , but only a mature and real conversation , my friend .
why do some men believe and some men refuse to believe?
Why at an afternoon grill do some men choose to eat hamburgers and others eat hotdogs? 🌭 🍔
free will is a thing yo
@@Dizerner When you're unrepentant, you have can commit all the sin you want Enjoy
After that you're a bondservant to Christ
@@kevinjypiter6445 so personal preference? some people just prefer hell? why would God create them with such a preference?
A gift of free will!
You’ve got to ignore far more versus to reject Calvinism.
We read the same verses. We just have different interpretations of them.
Christians who reject Calvinism aren’t any more Biblically illiterate than well-studied Calvinists. They simply come away from the same text with different understandings of the same passage.
For example:
A Calvinist reads Romans 9 and sees Election of a particular people for Salvation.
A non-Calvinist reads Romans 9 and sees that God judicially hardened Israel just like Pharaoh in order to make the Gospel available to the Gentiles by Israel’s rejection of it’s Messiah.
@@GhostBearCommander you either have GODS INTERPRETATION ..... or you believe lies ............... there is no interpretation of any value other than what GOD has determined .............
You are creating a false binary
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Indeed; but Calvinists hold that God determined ALL interpretations. . . .
@@darthnocturnis3941 Yes and some people are DETERMINED to hold false beliefs that shouldn't be a gotcha to the calvinist but really a warning to anyone (calvinist included) who thinks they have the right interpretation about anything, not just about salvation. God has created some for noble purposes and some for destruction. Some are DETERMINED to never believe and some are DETERMINED to believe and this is God's will, not OURS. You better pray that it's God's will you have the right interpretation and to have the holy spirit guide you. In fact anytime we pray, we aren't changing God's will when we ask for anything. We pray because it changes US, not God. God's will will be done, NOT OURS.
If whether someone is saved is based on someone's performance or ability to understand the gospel, then it's not based on God's doing but based on the intrinsic quality in that person. Whether they were too prideful or not intelligent enough to understand. We understand that some people are born short, tall, and in between, same with personalities and other intrinsic traits, dispositions and perspectives on life. We can make choices, but those choices are enslaved to our preferences. You can't escape that every decision or action you make is based on your preferences. How you like to interpret the world around you, you believe you're making the optimal choice for yourself at that point in time with limited knowledge, because otherwise why would you make a suboptimal choice IF you were aware of it? Some people value studying vs partying, even though we know the benefits of doing hard work before playing, some value the short term rewards over the long term and they will consistently choose that until life circumstances change and shape them, but that's not you CONTROLLING your preferences but your preferences being shaped by circumstance and life experiences. So again, you're enslaved to your preferences, never will you be able to spontaneously force yourself to like something you don't. Does a lion want to force itself to eat veggies vs meat? No the lion's nature will always prefer meat, likewise humans have a sin nature that prefers sin over God. Unless God changes our nature.
I can see you are determined to keep deleting my truthful comments! What a hypocrite!
"I don't think God predestines men to destruction" -- Flowers. He still doesn't understand.
Christ died for the false prophets and false teachers too ! 2 Peter 2:1
You STILL don’t get it!
Can you explain? Do you subscribe to double predestination?
Even John Calvin stated that you can't believe in the doctrine of election without also believing in the doctrine of reprobation. It's a logical consequence. If the only ones who are saved are those who God chose then it's logically necessary that those who are not saved were chosen by God to reject Him. You can't suggest "You have free will to reject God but not to accept Him."; that's like flipping a coin and saying "heads I win, tails you lose."
Still no proof that Leighton was EVER a Calvinist
He's well on his way toward Open Theism ...😥
Such a terrible inference. You are generally stating that no one is able to testify truthfully about their past unless it lines up with the present condition.
A born-again Christian was never an atheist, because he is presently a Christian. Clearly, no proof that he was an atheist and therefore he was not.
That's quite literally the application of your logic here and it just holds no water.
How is he "on his way"? He's had a pretty stable expressed position for 6-8 years, and with coined terminology for 5 or so.
In that time he's argued AGAINST open theism and had open theists on and shown where they disagree when relevant.
What I think trips people up is he doesn't treat open theists like heretics, and he let's them talk.
His perspective on time and knowledge is akin to CS LEWIS or Boethius. And he's amiable to but unconvinced by Molinism.
There's been zero slide to open theism.
There is actually a full sermon of him preaching Calvinism. So yeah, there is proof of him previously being a Calvinist.
Not that anyone needed that. What happened to giving the benefit of the doubt? Or believing one's word? Are you calling a brother in Christ a liar just because you disagree with him? I would be careful with that, God doesn't treat this kind of behaviour amongst the church lightly.
Go regurgitate more James White vomit! Lightweight!
Wow, accusation without proof, and with proof to the opposite available. Calvinist smearing anyone who disagrees with them? And if he does go to Open Theism, wouldn't that have been determined by God from eternity past if we have no free will and everything is controlled and determined by God, as Calvinists claim?
We are happy you left, we want no Tares
If you think you can identify the tares, then you got it wrong
@@jasonmalstrom1043 if you think I cant then you got it wrong
@@salpezzino7803Calvinist are always so angry 😡
@@kevinjackson2361 I just said we are happy, have you been drinking?
Interesting calling a fellow believer and follower of Christ a tare.
Leighton if you admit cognitive dissonance with your Calvinism, is it much of a leap to see cognitive dissonance with god in general ?
I have studied a lot of theology. I don't just take whatever theologians have determined. If you really study this scripture yourself from cover to cover, You will see that a lot of what he says is very accurate. I am not saying I completely agree with him, But you just dismiss him means that you have to do the work yourself. You can not just refer to a theologian like a John Piper to dismiss him.
Leighton= blind leading the blind.
Is GOD *LOVE* first or sovereign first?
@@CosmicalChristYes. But how is “sovereign” defined?
@@AppalachiaTN
From Merriam-Webster:
"Sovereign has everything to do with power. It often describes a person who has supreme power or authority, such as a king or queen. God is described as "sovereign" in a number of Bible translations. In addition to describing ones who have power, the word sovereign also often describes power: to have sovereign power is to have absolute power-that is, power that cannot be checked by anyone or anything"
@@CosmicalChrist The point in my response was twofold:
1) God is both love and sovereign (among so many other of his attributes) simultaneously. His attributes don’t have a sequence nor ranking.
2) “Sovereign” encompasses both power and authority. However, nowhere in the definition does it equate it with meticulous determination.
@@AppalachiaTN
Calvinists definition of sovereign means "GOD controls everything".
I'm simply pointing out that's not the definition of sovereign.
My initial question "Is GOD sovereign or loving *FIRST* "
Doesn't denote a either or.
It's in relation to his relationship with man from the beginning.
Did GOD first show his love or his power to man?