One huge point in favor of belt drives for me is the way they hold up to winter riding in snow, road salt and road grit. I have a chain now and even though I do my best to de-ice, clean, dry and lube every time I get home, the road gunk eats through my mechanicals. When my bike is parked at the office or outside the grocery store, its drivetrain is rusting away.
@Larryr check out Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter Pro great internal geared hub with the Bafang ultra mid drive motor paired with an Archon X1 3000w controller. 60 amp burst capability on a light weight titanium frame.
Thanks Johnny. Super clear and precise. I was gonna go for belt but then saw the price and was disappointed. This is a great compromise. I ride in remote areas and my chain keeps breaking which is a real pain.
Great video, excellent points. It is hard to justify the huge cost difference between a reliable chain and a belt. I rented a priority with a Gates and an Enviolo and it was buttery smooth and quiet, so I can see why people are interested.
One of the biggest draw backs to converting an existing bike to a belt drive is that the frame must have a fusible link in the rear triangle. This modification would require way above average aluminum welding skills. Belts do not "open up" like chains. With the right tools, changing/replacing a bicycle chain is easy. Some chains now come with a quick link or power lock link that makes removing or installing even easier. My ebike has an Enviolo CVT with single speed quick link chain-works great. I carry a couple extra quick links, as you generally can't reuse after opening one.
Ideally you need a very rigid frame designed for use with a belt drive. If I was touring though the outback I would definitly have a belt drive, and carry a spare belt. Otherwise using a single speed chain is solid advice.
@@buixote Yep definitely a tensioner, also for the Gates belt you need the frame break to get the belt on and off, and then to have the the belt drive truely run at it's best, you need a very rigid frame.
@@rfwillett2424 I believe there are frame designs with elevated chainstay that accommodate both chain and belt system, so not all frames have to be belt-specific with break
As time marches on, yes I see belt drives eventually replacing chain drives. You can't argue with the fact that a belt driven system is so much stronger and more reliable. However there are lots of implications right now. Obviously the belt system has to come apart so you can get it on your frame. I know this is possible but expensive. Plus a bunch of other factors that come into play with parts you need. Once manufacturers adopt belt systems and integrated to price will come down. Until then I'm sticking to my KMC single speed chain. Built like a tank, tough as nails. It'll get me through until belt drives become a common affordable product.
" you can't argue with the fact that a belt drive is so much stringer and more reliable than a chain " 😳except that he DID make an excellent argument in favor of chains .
And...if I'm not mistaken...since belt drives don't "break" like chains (in the good sense, to be able to take them on and off the bike), don't you need a special type of frame that opens up along the chainstay to actually accommodate a belt drive setup? And as far as IGHs go...when you're putting them on an ebike does it really make that much of a difference whether it's the Rohloff's 500+ ratio or the Enviolo's 360+ ratio? I could see the advantage of the expensive Rohloff ratio on a non-ebike, but on an ebike...it doesn't really seem like it's worth that much money. Yeah, it's a great piece of engineering...but still.
Yes. The belt drive bikes are designed much like a single speed, to allow tensioning. Yes it makes a difference which IGH. Not so much because of the ratio but because most IGHs were designed for the torque of a human rider. The Enviolo is fine for Euro-spec e-bikes but try it at full power on a 750 watt or more mid-drive and it will wear quickly, if not break. The Rohloff can handle more torque but I'd still be uncomfortable using it on say a BBSHD.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 Thanks. It's good to know. I think for riders who do a lot of long distance touring the Rohloff makes a lot of sense, but for the average Ebike cyclist not so much. (Although maybe for commuters who don't want to get grease on their clothes I could see that as well.) I get a sense, though, that it's just another marketing scheme to get bicyclists to buy more stuff, or think that they need to buy the latest and greatest. I'm satisfied with chains and derailleurs, personally. I have an Ariel Rider "M" Class bike that has an IGH (Shimano Nexus 7 speed) and a single chain. One thing I noticed (and have read about) is that IGHs don't always respond all that well to shifting under heavy load. I had to learn to ease off before each shift or else I'd think I'd downshifted going up a hill, but nothing changed until at some point I'd hear a "CLANK" and realized that the bike hadn't shifted when I thought it had. Now that rarely happens because I modified how/when I shift.
@@skaybaltimore It works the same with an analog bike, any gear system or any motor, you let off on the torque before switching gears or you destroy mechanical parts. Except, perhaps, the CVT. I'm not too sure about those but assume it's still best practice to cut power a bit while "shifting".
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 I found it to be less responsive than my Yamaha Urban Rush (Tiagra, 2x10). But the Yamaha has a complex sensor system so maybe the gear sensor on the Yamaha does the work better/faster than the Ariel Rider.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 that might be true if the CVT is set up to mimic discrete shifts, but when they're running continuously, it's my understanding that they change during load. And if it's the go cart/scooter style CVT, I believe it changes in response to load, so slower speed input is geared for torque, and as rpms increase, it moves towards overdrive for greater speed on the output. The kind in cars are hydraulic though, so the controll system for those seems likely to be more complicated than the centrifugal CVTs on go-karts and scooters/mopeds
I've got a single speed chain on a Nexus 8 Speed hub, but I wish I had a belt drive (the replacement model for my bike had them). Not so much for the reduced maintenance, increased efficiency with higher power or the increased strength. The reduced noise is what I noticed most when riding one. Without a frame that was made for it though, I'm not going to bother.
OK, thank you. I suspect there is a middle ground, cost-wise, by using an Enviolo or Shimano hub. And cleanliness does count; would be nice to get rid of oily, dirty, chains forever. But I see your point about complexity and inability to tinker with gears without ordering a new custom-made belt. Regarding the rare broken belt, the obvious solution is to carry a spare. Of course, that doubles the cost any time you want to change one of your gears. I've fixed a broken chain on the road; just removed the broken link. Couldn't use the low gears, but could still ride home. I suppose that carrying a few spare links (and a tool) would make emergency repairs even easier.
I have a IGH Sturmey Archer 5 speed with a BBS02. I programmed it to 15 Amps so I can not go as fast, but It is less likely to destroy the hub. I’m using a chain and wax it instead of oil. This requires me to wax it about every 300-400 miles, but it is much cleaner and does not get as dirty. Good idea to carry an extra chain. That said I have never broken a chain. Probably I do not push it that hard. I do carry extra quick links, just in case (much lighter and smaller than an extra chain). Really like the IGH road 40 miles a few days ago and only used about 1/2 of my 12amp battery. It was mostly flat, no wind and I really road conservative to make sure I did not run out of juice. Love my IGH.
You didn't mention that to convert a bicycle to belt drive, you must cut the right seat stay of your frame and braze the bolt connector which let the belt go thrpugh the frame. That is one expensive job and I 'm not sure if it doesn't compromise the stiffness of the frame and the safety. Otherwise, along with the gear hub, the ridiculously expensive belt sprocket and chainring, you may have to buy a new frame designed to allow belts.
Thank you. Everyone is just hyping belts, but having a realistic view on the topic is great ESPECIALLY… I did not know that single speed chains are more durable then multi speed ones 🤔
Totally agree. I think broken chains are pretty rare... at least no one in my circle has ever broken one. Belt drives seem cool (quiet, no lube), but why they should cost so much (nevermind the cranksets)... I guess they last so long, the manufacturers want to ding you for max bux up front. It is amazing when you think such a "lowly" piece of gear as a chain, has remained the same for so long, and not really seen its basic design change (not that master-links are not a *great* enhancement!).
Very good review and straight to the point. I own 3 bikes and all of them are with single speed sprocket or internal gear hubs. I can't stand bikes with derailleurs for obvious reasons
Thanks heaps for the video man!! I was contemplating doing a belt drive conversion to my fat bike i rebuilt. I was gonna do it along with a Bafang motor and a geared hub, but you saved me a fair bit of hassle. I just subbed out of gratitude LoL.
Good info. Na, I'll stick to my carbon belt drive system though. Has to be the greatest invention of late to ebikes etc. It's quite, clean reliable and lasts.....forever.
Hey, if I had the dough, I think a Rohloff is my Survivalist bike. A lot of folks who takes a trans-continental bike rides go Rohloff, because you don't have to worry. But for a lot of riders, a single speed chain has merit. Thanks for the video.
I ride on the beach, salt , sand, salt water, what a mess. Lube a chain and it turns into sandpaper. So I’m looking into a belt, and something like an alfine to put on a quad bike or convert a trike to a quad.
>roll eyes< Gates parts are not that much more expensive then other premium bike components. And make no mistake, Gates drives are still considered premium parts at this point as no one can make a generic version. You know, patents and all that. I've had a Gates belt bike for several years now. Zero maintenance? No. Minimal maintenance? Yes. Cleaning the belt consists of hosing it off with water once in awhile. Like after a muddy ride or .... after riding on salt covered winter roads... that's about it. Regular maintenance is just checking the belt tension. If it's loose it takes all of five minutes and two Allen wrenches to adjust. Having a regular bike with a belt drive I can see why people would want a e-bike with one. Though I would not pair it with a Bafang mid-drive, maybe a TSDZ2 but not a Bafang.
We almost totally agree. Belts should be cleaned with a brush from time to time. Even tiny left over grit eats away at belt fibers.You read about this on touring cyclist sites.
Hard to upgrade to belt drive is dependent upon your frame! Rear drive side needs to have a section that allows you to get the belt inside the chainstay! No quick links on a belt.
Have you ever attempted a BBS02 conversation on a belt drive bike? I have a Cube travel bike that is factory installed with a gates carbon drive, any idea if it would be easy to fit a BBS02?
i bought a secondhand rolloff bike , to change the gears i have to cut the pressure on the pedals when cycling for the gear to change is this normal? thanks
Belts are awesome...if you ride a neutered Euro-spec e-bike. Haven't seen a belt on any high powered mid-drive motors. I'm with you on the IGH & a single speed chain. Only problem might be, if you live in a mountainous area, getting the right range of gearing in an IGH. I wanted to build my city bike with an IGH but you can't beat the price of a cheap derailleur with any IGH. Yeah, it takes more wear & tear but my chain and freewheel can be replaced for under $50 in about an hour. Hard to complain about that, especially when it's probably years between changes.
Check out Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter Pro, great internal geared hub with the Bafang Ultra mid drive motor paired with an Archon X1 3000w controller. 60 amp burst capability on a light weight titanium frame.
Already attempted a Gates belt drive with a Nexus internally geared hub. It works great in theory the problem I ran into is when mixed with mid drive motor such as a buffet BBS HD the gears are too weak inside and the hub is destroyed. Myself if I could afford it I'd like to experiment with the Schlumph Crankset and a 3000 Watt hub motor. It should give me some real time 40 plus mile per hour pedaling. I'll let you know how it works out if I ever go that route.
Nexus has never given me any problems but, I used to live in a reasonably flat country. Meanwhile, very aware of the intricate parts which need 'watch maker' level competence, the Nexus system was treated very gently, i.e. Anticipating uphill so I don't have to shift down while full throttle etc. And that was in the 90's, bike got stolen (of course), emigrated (not out of spite) and got the exact same system again. Still love it.
I had a IGH Sturmey Archer 3 speed belt drive connected to a Bafang Ultra Motor, destroyed the hub in less than 600k, couldn't handle the power of Ultra Motor. New single speed hub, chain ring and chain fitted now with over 2000k on it.
Ever heard of a Momentum UX -- which is about $700 -- it has belt and internal gears in hub. So how do they sell it at that price if it's priced so high?
If I already have a bike with geared hub and belt drive could I install a bafang mid drive motor? What would I need to do to change the motor to belt drive?
Thanks Johnny, I agree. I seen a video where the Carbon belt drive snapped. It was the guys fault, but the mist of the story is there is a few things you have to do all the time with the belt in order for all those things not to occur, slipping, snapping, Yes’ cleaning is necessary too, so it is anything but maintenance free. That “myth” needs to be dispelled as people do not know what they are getting themselves into when they either purchase, or are thinking I’ve found the Holy grail of more thing that will take care of them having to look after whatsoever forever. The truth is you will have to look after it more than a chain more times than not, and at the worst the same, but a chain again cost a fraction especially of what a Carbon belt drive cost. And you can’t add a belt drive to your current bike without a tube being sliced in half. And the integrity afterward would be seemingly questionable. Now you have to add in a new bike which can range in the hundreds to over a grand as there aren’t bikes sold the way a belt drive is simply for the reason of why would they have access to a point not necessary ever in the history of bicycles. And if all that works you have the “pleasure” of having to do even more maintenance than you’ve probably ever done with a chain. How is it worth it under 99.99% of every situation under the sun or moon?
We agree value wise. Cleanliness and ease, not so much less maintenance, as well as blessed silence is the goal. That said, 1/8" single speed, encased chain, on an IGH makes for an amazing commuter bike.
veer belt drives are made for any bike, they split to fit. Most full suspension bikes have a bearing point for entry of a gates belt. they are expensive still but i dont think these are as forsaken as it seems. i ordered a veer kit for my surly karate monkey and a gates kit for my full suspension mtb. two different bike and two very smooth silent rides. both igh hubs. Oiling and checking hubs is about it for upkeep. i think belt drives are amazing and well worth the money. my opinion here is all. ive had every chain arrangement and or derailleur and also rebuilt cassettes for better shifting on bafang mid drives but a belt drive is heaven in comparison. save up and treat yourself or get a credit card and splurge. life is too short to never know.
Belt drives are 3% less efficient than a chain (friction). For that matter IGH's are lots heavier and have friction than deraileur systems (they should be overhauled annually as well...super messy or expensive). Belts will foul. They don't like slush balls or sticks. They are harder to clean properly (most folks don't know you should never degrease a chain). They require a more complex, less efficient frame that often creaks. Like all single speed and IGH's, they need more adjustment than deraileur chains, so they are not the panacea they first seem. I'll still take one for my commuter. I also prefer IGH's because I like being able to shift at a stop. I'll take the trade-offs, but you are not settling for less just because you are using something else. Get a 1/8" single speed chain for best engagement. Bigger BMX riders prefer them because they are strongest. If you have a deraileur system and are really scared of chain breakage, run 8 speed or less. Everything under 9 speed uses the same chain; the thickest deraileur chain you can get.
There are cheap chain checker tools that will tell you how much the chain has stretched. The more the chain has stretched and the less maintenance and cleaning/lubing you do, the faster you will wear out your other components like the chainring and cassette. That's much more expensive than some lube and a new chain every 2-3k miles, you should consider replacing it now before you cause more wear or break a chain.
What if I have a single speed chain for a bike rental shop in the Caribbean? Would it be a good idea for me to go with that setup for bikes I want to rent to people(and have low maintenance)
@@JohnnyNerdOut I really appreciate your response. What's the biggest take away of having single speed bike? Can I still get good speeds on hills if I equip the bike with 1500w motor?
I own a Cube Editor belt driven (shimano alfine11) and I am thinking of converting it to electric with a kit. Is it recommended? Can it be done? I was thinking of a bafang conversion kit.
the trouble I found is that inevitably the ratios of the leg powered bike will be completely wrong post conversion. To remedy this requires new sprockets and belt..... crazy expensive.
Finally have enough money for motor.. can't find cyclone? Need for the micargi Seattle SS any advice? Checking your store today.. great video love how you protect our wallets 👊👊💪💪
@@JohnnyNerdOut What would be the best 7 or 8 speed freewheel to use for the BBSHD ? My chain has been slipping because of the high torque of the motor.
I would not convert a bike to belt. Way too complicated, lots of work involved. I own an ebike with a belt drive. Never had a problem with the belt. I love it. Your cogs will wear out faster than the belt.
They probably got sick of customers having problems installing them. They can be a pain. I still carry them though 👍 I actually just got a batch of the new single chainring version in. I need to test it and update my inventory soon.
@@JohnnyNerdOut good morning. im good at fixing things what i did for 55 years lol. im making my first e bike (micargi seattle ss) was going to put cyclone on? ya im crazy lol ill check your shop and my bank account lol thanks brother and enjoy the day! im all ears if any sugestions on motors?
Hi. have you done bike build with bafang m620 motor? I am thinking to order bike frame with motor and use internal gear hub shimano 5e or enviolo. Currently i am a bit concerned about lifespan of internal hubs when they are used with powerful motor.
9000 foolishly zero maintenance, year round, all weather miles on my Nexus seven speed. Took it apart. It shows no wear whatsoever. These really should be overhauled annually. Admittedly, I was only using a BBSO2 350 watt with 48 volt, but amps turned up to 20. It easily climbed very wicked river bluff hills.
@@Cobalt985 theoretical is correct. That is only near peak. You have to figure both the motor and the battery most likely allow spikes as high as 75 amps peak. Nominally, one could quite reasonably say 150 watts. I know that on my 500 watt nominal, 15 Amp peak (75 spike), torque sensing mid-drive, I average only a little over 100 watts in actual operation.
pull a bearing out the back of a full suspension bike to get a solid belt in the frame or buy a veer split belt which rivets together around any chainstays but you have to have a very straight chainline to start with. there is a guide and grid for measuring on their website. im doing both versions and also adding a alfine 8 speed IGH.
So he’s just against the 300$, seems like the review was skewed because of cost. I’d like to hear about the other issues because 300$is nothing its like milk money. If i can get a far more reliable system.
One huge point in favor of belt drives for me is the way they hold up to winter riding in snow, road salt and road grit. I have a chain now and even though I do my best to de-ice, clean, dry and lube every time I get home, the road gunk eats through my mechanicals. When my bike is parked at the office or outside the grocery store, its drivetrain is rusting away.
Please do a video on the internally geared hubs/brands/best value
Shimano Nexus/Alfine...proven tech reasonable price
@@unclepete100 You should include Sturmy Archer in there too.
@@MHH3180 I would love to see a video on these hubs behind a 2000 watt befang mid drive but I don't think I will see that anytime soon'
@Larryr check out Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter Pro great internal geared hub with the Bafang ultra mid drive motor paired with an Archon X1 3000w controller. 60 amp burst capability on a light weight titanium frame.
I got so tired of my chain jumping sprockets while riding. My next bike will have a belt drive.
Why is a chain better than a belt in a car, but a belt is better than a chain on a bike?
This bit of info and short video just saved me so much time and money. Thank you for being straight to the point.
most of commuting people want easy maintain. this is the main reason for them to use drive belt.
Thanks Johnny. Super clear and precise. I was gonna go for belt but then saw the price and was disappointed. This is a great compromise. I ride in remote areas and my chain keeps breaking which is a real pain.
Bingo! An absolutely crutial point completely omitted in the video.
So basically ... get a belt drive if you can afford it.
Great video, excellent points. It is hard to justify the huge cost difference between a reliable chain and a belt. I rented a priority with a Gates and an Enviolo and it was buttery smooth and quiet, so I can see why people are interested.
One of the biggest draw backs to converting an existing bike to a belt drive is that the frame must have a fusible link in the rear triangle. This modification would require way above average aluminum welding skills. Belts do not "open up" like chains. With the right tools, changing/replacing a bicycle chain is easy. Some chains now come with a quick link or power lock link that makes removing or installing even easier. My ebike has an Enviolo CVT with single speed quick link chain-works great. I carry a couple extra quick links, as you generally can't reuse after opening one.
Ideally you need a very rigid frame designed for use with a belt drive. If I was touring though the outback I would definitly have a belt drive, and carry a spare belt. Otherwise using a single speed chain is solid advice.
tensioner?
@@buixote Yep definitely a tensioner, also for the Gates belt you need the frame break to get the belt on and off, and then to have the the belt drive truely run at it's best, you need a very rigid frame.
@@buixote Any frame purposely built for a Gates belt should have tensioners built in (mine does, a Priority 600).
@@rfwillett2424 I believe there are frame designs with elevated chainstay that accommodate both chain and belt system, so not all frames have to be belt-specific with break
Over 50 years riding a bicycle most days and have broken a chain once......up to you
30 years of daily, year round commuting. Have only ever broken my mistakes...twice!
As time marches on, yes I see belt drives eventually replacing chain drives. You can't argue with the fact that a belt driven system is so much stronger and more reliable. However there are lots of implications right now. Obviously the belt system has to come apart so you can get it on your frame. I know this is possible but expensive. Plus a bunch of other factors that come into play with parts you need.
Once manufacturers adopt belt systems and integrated to price will come down. Until then I'm sticking to my KMC single speed chain. Built like a tank, tough as nails. It'll get me through until belt drives become a common affordable product.
Just remove the tire what is so hard about that
@@ChaosBW are you suggesting you can mount a gates belt on a standard bike frame?
I always carry a few spare links and a chain splitter. Job done!
" you can't argue with the fact that a belt drive is so much stringer and more reliable than a chain " 😳except that he DID make an excellent argument in favor of chains .
And...if I'm not mistaken...since belt drives don't "break" like chains (in the good sense, to be able to take them on and off the bike), don't you need a special type of frame that opens up along the chainstay to actually accommodate a belt drive setup?
And as far as IGHs go...when you're putting them on an ebike does it really make that much of a difference whether it's the Rohloff's 500+ ratio or the Enviolo's 360+ ratio? I could see the advantage of the expensive Rohloff ratio on a non-ebike, but on an ebike...it doesn't really seem like it's worth that much money. Yeah, it's a great piece of engineering...but still.
Yes. The belt drive bikes are designed much like a single speed, to allow tensioning.
Yes it makes a difference which IGH. Not so much because of the ratio but because most IGHs were designed for the torque of a human rider. The Enviolo is fine for Euro-spec e-bikes but try it at full power on a 750 watt or more mid-drive and it will wear quickly, if not break. The Rohloff can handle more torque but I'd still be uncomfortable using it on say a BBSHD.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 Thanks. It's good to know. I think for riders who do a lot of long distance touring the Rohloff makes a lot of sense, but for the average Ebike cyclist not so much. (Although maybe for commuters who don't want to get grease on their clothes I could see that as well.) I get a sense, though, that it's just another marketing scheme to get bicyclists to buy more stuff, or think that they need to buy the latest and greatest. I'm satisfied with chains and derailleurs, personally.
I have an Ariel Rider "M" Class bike that has an IGH (Shimano Nexus 7 speed) and a single chain. One thing I noticed (and have read about) is that IGHs don't always respond all that well to shifting under heavy load. I had to learn to ease off before each shift or else I'd think I'd downshifted going up a hill, but nothing changed until at some point I'd hear a "CLANK" and realized that the bike hadn't shifted when I thought it had. Now that rarely happens because I modified how/when I shift.
@@skaybaltimore It works the same with an analog bike, any gear system or any motor, you let off on the torque before switching gears or you destroy mechanical parts.
Except, perhaps, the CVT. I'm not too sure about those but assume it's still best practice to cut power a bit while "shifting".
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 I found it to be less responsive than my Yamaha Urban Rush (Tiagra, 2x10). But the Yamaha has a complex sensor system so maybe the gear sensor on the Yamaha does the work better/faster than the Ariel Rider.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 that might be true if the CVT is set up to mimic discrete shifts, but when they're running continuously, it's my understanding that they change during load. And if it's the go cart/scooter style CVT, I believe it changes in response to load, so slower speed input is geared for torque, and as rpms increase, it moves towards overdrive for greater speed on the output. The kind in cars are hydraulic though, so the controll system for those seems likely to be more complicated than the centrifugal CVTs on go-karts and scooters/mopeds
Carry an extra single speed chain that you have already prefit, and the few tools to change it if you are that worried.
I've got a single speed chain on a Nexus 8 Speed hub, but I wish I had a belt drive (the replacement model for my bike had them). Not so much for the reduced maintenance, increased efficiency with higher power or the increased strength. The reduced noise is what I noticed most when riding one. Without a frame that was made for it though, I'm not going to bother.
OK, thank you. I suspect there is a middle ground, cost-wise, by using an Enviolo or Shimano hub. And cleanliness does count; would be nice to get rid of oily, dirty, chains forever. But I see your point about complexity and inability to tinker with gears without ordering a new custom-made belt.
Regarding the rare broken belt, the obvious solution is to carry a spare. Of course, that doubles the cost any time you want to change one of your gears.
I've fixed a broken chain on the road; just removed the broken link. Couldn't use the low gears, but could still ride home. I suppose that carrying a few spare links (and a tool) would make emergency repairs even easier.
I have a IGH Sturmey Archer 5 speed with a BBS02. I programmed it to 15 Amps so I can not go as fast, but It is less likely to destroy the hub. I’m using a chain and wax it instead of oil. This requires me to wax it about every 300-400 miles, but it is much cleaner and does not get as dirty. Good idea to carry an extra chain. That said I have never broken a chain. Probably I do not push it that hard. I do carry extra quick links, just in case (much lighter and smaller than an extra chain).
Really like the IGH road 40 miles a few days ago and only used about 1/2 of my 12amp battery. It was mostly flat, no wind and I really road conservative to make sure I did not run out of juice. Love my IGH.
You didn't mention that to convert a bicycle to belt drive, you must cut the right seat stay of your frame and braze the bolt connector which let the belt go thrpugh the frame. That is one expensive job and I 'm not sure if it doesn't compromise the stiffness of the frame and the safety. Otherwise, along with the gear hub, the ridiculously expensive belt sprocket and chainring, you may have to buy a new frame designed to allow belts.
Thank you. Everyone is just hyping belts, but having a realistic view on the topic is great ESPECIALLY… I did not know that single speed chains are more durable then multi speed ones 🤔
That was a freaking perfect explanation! Thank you!
Totally agree. I think broken chains are pretty rare... at least no one in my circle has ever broken one. Belt drives seem cool (quiet, no lube), but why they should cost so much (nevermind the cranksets)... I guess they last so long, the manufacturers want to ding you for max bux up front. It is amazing when you think such a "lowly" piece of gear as a chain, has remained the same for so long, and not really seen its basic design change (not that master-links are not a *great* enhancement!).
I think I've watched every ebike video on UA-cam lol your awesome Johnny
Very good review and straight to the point. I own 3 bikes and all of them are with single speed sprocket or internal gear hubs. I can't stand bikes with derailleurs for obvious reasons
Lotta good advice on your channel. Thanks.
Great advice. Thanks!
Thanks heaps for the video man!! I was contemplating doing a belt drive conversion to my fat bike i rebuilt. I was gonna do it along with a Bafang motor and a geared hub, but you saved me a fair bit of hassle. I just subbed out of gratitude LoL.
Good info. Na, I'll stick to my carbon belt drive system though. Has to be the greatest invention of late to ebikes etc. It's quite, clean reliable and lasts.....forever.
Not to mention with a single speed chain you could carry a spare with you if you were heading out into a remote area. Problem solved!
You can carry multiple for kicks, and not notice you had anything on you.
What if I frequently cycle in the rain? I don't want to worry about my chain getting rusty. Would it be worth getting a belt drive then?
Hey, if I had the dough, I think a Rohloff is my Survivalist bike. A lot of folks who takes a trans-continental bike rides go Rohloff, because you don't have to worry. But for a lot of riders, a single speed chain has merit. Thanks for the video.
I ride on the beach, salt , sand, salt water, what a mess. Lube a chain and it turns into sandpaper. So I’m looking into a belt, and something like an alfine to put on a quad bike or convert a trike to a quad.
>roll eyes< Gates parts are not that much more expensive then other premium bike components. And make no mistake, Gates drives are still considered premium parts at this point as no one can make a generic version. You know, patents and all that.
I've had a Gates belt bike for several years now. Zero maintenance? No. Minimal maintenance? Yes.
Cleaning the belt consists of hosing it off with water once in awhile. Like after a muddy ride or .... after riding on salt covered winter roads... that's about it.
Regular maintenance is just checking the belt tension. If it's loose it takes all of five minutes and two Allen wrenches to adjust.
Having a regular bike with a belt drive I can see why people would want a e-bike with one. Though I would not pair it with a Bafang mid-drive, maybe a TSDZ2 but not a Bafang.
We almost totally agree. Belts should be cleaned with a brush from time to time. Even tiny left over grit eats away at belt fibers.You read about this on touring cyclist sites.
Hard to upgrade to belt drive is dependent upon your frame! Rear drive side needs to have a section that allows you to get the belt inside the chainstay! No quick links on a belt.
Veer belt drives take this part out of the equation. split and fit
Have you ever attempted a BBS02 conversation on a belt drive bike? I have a Cube travel bike that is factory installed with a gates carbon drive, any idea if it would be easy to fit a BBS02?
Well these are very good points! I am convinced. Cheers
Good point, why didn't I think of that?
Excellent advice. I will consider this approach for my new E moped design...kunk
Thoughts on the Lectric XP Lite with the Gates belt drive for about $1k?
i bought a secondhand rolloff bike , to change the gears i have to cut the pressure on the pedals when cycling for the gear to change is this normal?
thanks
yes this is normal with any internally geared hub bike you basically need to stop pedalling to let the hub shift
@@SimonBauer7 ahh ok thanks
@@SimonBauer7 Not true of all IGHs any more. It is still best practice not to change gears while applying torque though.
Belt drive last 50 times longer
Belts are awesome...if you ride a neutered Euro-spec e-bike. Haven't seen a belt on any high powered mid-drive motors.
I'm with you on the IGH & a single speed chain. Only problem might be, if you live in a mountainous area, getting the right range of gearing in an IGH.
I wanted to build my city bike with an IGH but you can't beat the price of a cheap derailleur with any IGH. Yeah, it takes more wear & tear but my chain and freewheel can be replaced for under $50 in about an hour. Hard to complain about that, especially when it's probably years between changes.
Agreed, that’s why I got rid of my IGH. Top gear was perfect but low gear was was way too tall.
Belts can absolutely handle the power of a strong e bike. They use belts in CVTs for gas go karts in excess of 10-20hp (7500w-15000w)
@@FerrariTeddy If the e-bike belts were built to the same tolerances, no problem. They are not, as of yet.
We don't care about the price just show us how to do it!!!
Check out Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter Pro, great internal geared hub with the Bafang Ultra mid drive motor paired with an Archon X1 3000w controller. 60 amp burst capability on a light weight titanium frame.
Really cool bike! But $7k?! That's just the starting price....almost $16k fully loaded. I don't get that part :(
Is it possible to convert a 2024 Wired Cruiser into a belt drive?
Already attempted a Gates belt drive with a Nexus internally geared hub. It works great in theory the problem I ran into is when mixed with mid drive motor such as a buffet BBS HD the gears are too weak inside and the hub is destroyed. Myself if I could afford it I'd like to experiment with the Schlumph Crankset and a 3000 Watt hub motor. It should give me some real time 40 plus mile per hour pedaling. I'll let you know how it works out if I ever go that route.
Nexus has never given me any problems but, I used to live in a reasonably flat country. Meanwhile, very aware of the intricate parts which need 'watch maker' level competence, the Nexus system was treated very gently, i.e. Anticipating uphill so I don't have to shift down while full throttle etc. And that was in the 90's, bike got stolen (of course), emigrated (not out of spite) and got the exact same system again. Still love it.
Go the BAFANG XC E bike 1400 watt mid drive !
I had a IGH Sturmey Archer 3 speed belt drive connected to a Bafang Ultra Motor, destroyed the hub in less than 600k, couldn't handle the power of Ultra Motor. New single speed hub, chain ring and chain fitted now with over 2000k on it.
But what about if you're doing the upgrade to an ebike which already has no space inside the rear hub
Ok, I was thinking about buying the Ace of clubs bike to convert to a mid drive electric bike.Is this doable
Ever heard of a Momentum UX -- which is about $700 -- it has belt and internal gears in hub. So how do they sell it at that price if it's priced so high?
Good advise. Thanks!
If I already have a bike with geared hub and belt drive could I install a bafang mid drive motor? What would I need to do to change the motor to belt drive?
Thanks Johnny, I agree. I seen a video where the Carbon belt drive snapped. It was the guys fault, but the mist of the story is there is a few things you have to do all the time with the belt in order for all those things not to occur, slipping, snapping, Yes’ cleaning is necessary too, so it is anything but maintenance free. That “myth” needs to be dispelled as people do not know what they are getting themselves into when they either purchase, or are thinking I’ve found the Holy grail of more thing that will take care of them having to look after whatsoever forever. The truth is you will have to look after it more than a chain more times than not, and at the worst the same, but a chain again cost a fraction especially of what a Carbon belt drive cost. And you can’t add a belt drive to your current bike without a tube being sliced in half. And the integrity afterward would be seemingly questionable. Now you have to add in a new bike which can range in the hundreds to over a grand as there aren’t bikes sold the way a belt drive is simply for the reason of why would they have access to a point not necessary ever in the history of bicycles. And if all that works you have the “pleasure” of having to do even more maintenance than you’ve probably ever done with a chain. How is it worth it under 99.99% of every situation under the sun or moon?
We agree value wise. Cleanliness and ease, not so much less maintenance, as well as blessed silence is the goal. That said, 1/8" single speed, encased chain, on an IGH makes for an amazing commuter bike.
veer belt drives are made for any bike, they split to fit. Most full suspension bikes have a bearing point for entry of a gates belt. they are expensive still but i dont think these are as forsaken as it seems. i ordered a veer kit for my surly karate monkey and a gates kit for my full suspension mtb. two different bike and two very smooth silent rides. both igh hubs. Oiling and checking hubs is about it for upkeep. i think belt drives are amazing and well worth the money. my opinion here is all. ive had every chain arrangement and or derailleur and also rebuilt cassettes for better shifting on bafang mid drives but a belt drive is heaven in comparison. save up and treat yourself or get a credit card and splurge. life is too short to never know.
I have a mid hub ebike and the belt drive makes more sense over a chain, cassette
Hey i just bought a 2021 Motobecane E-MTB Hal eBoost M600 mid drive. I want to convert to pinion hub drive. Can u rec something?
Belt drives are the future. My ebike shreds cassettes like paper.
single chain. sure you are pedaling like crazy or pushing it up hill with no gears thats good advice
Belt drives are 3% less efficient than a chain (friction). For that matter IGH's are lots heavier and have friction than deraileur systems (they should be overhauled annually as well...super messy or expensive).
Belts will foul. They don't like slush balls or sticks. They are harder to clean properly (most folks don't know you should never degrease a chain). They require a more complex, less efficient frame that often creaks.
Like all single speed and IGH's, they need more adjustment than deraileur chains, so they are not the panacea they first seem. I'll still take one for my commuter. I also prefer IGH's because I like being able to shift at a stop. I'll take the trade-offs, but you are not settling for less just because you are using something else.
Get a 1/8" single speed chain for best engagement. Bigger BMX riders prefer them because they are strongest. If you have a deraileur system and are really scared of chain breakage, run 8 speed or less. Everything under 9 speed uses the same chain; the thickest deraileur chain you can get.
My e-bike chain can pop? I’ve never lubed it. 3000 miles.
There are cheap chain checker tools that will tell you how much the chain has stretched. The more the chain has stretched and the less maintenance and cleaning/lubing you do, the faster you will wear out your other components like the chainring and cassette. That's much more expensive than some lube and a new chain every 2-3k miles, you should consider replacing it now before you cause more wear or break a chain.
What if I have a single speed chain for a bike rental shop in the Caribbean? Would it be a good idea for me to go with that setup for bikes I want to rent to people(and have low maintenance)
Short answer yes. I would gear it so that the motor is happy though (geared for low speed/torque)
@@JohnnyNerdOut I really appreciate your response. What's the biggest take away of having single speed bike? Can I still get good speeds on hills if I equip the bike with 1500w motor?
Trek District 4 $1.75K. Can beltdrive bicycle be converted to electric.
I own a Cube Editor belt driven (shimano alfine11) and I am thinking of converting it to electric with a kit. Is it recommended? Can it be done? I was thinking of a bafang conversion kit.
the trouble I found is that inevitably the ratios of the leg powered bike will be completely wrong post conversion. To remedy this requires new sprockets and belt..... crazy expensive.
Finally have enough money for motor.. can't find cyclone? Need for the micargi Seattle SS any advice? Checking your store today.. great video love how you protect our wallets 👊👊💪💪
Good point mate
Hey Johhny my BBSHD fat bike chain is slipping jumping on the smaller gears from time to time what is the best cassette of frewheel 8 speed ?
Can you rephrase the question?
@@JohnnyNerdOut What would be the best 7 or 8 speed freewheel to use for the BBSHD ? My chain has been slipping because of the high torque of the motor.
Valid points!! Thanks!
I would not convert a bike to belt. Way too complicated, lots of work involved. I own an ebike with a belt drive. Never had a problem with the belt. I love it. Your cogs will wear out faster than the belt.
I think the main problem is that you'll never find a belt drive ebike that also has a throttle, not yet anyways.
Hey brother.. just was informed that the cyclone motor is discontinued( Luna cycle).. this sucks.. you know why?
They probably got sick of customers having problems installing them. They can be a pain. I still carry them though 👍 I actually just got a batch of the new single chainring version in. I need to test it and update my inventory soon.
@@JohnnyNerdOut good morning. im good at fixing things what i did for 55 years lol. im making my first e bike (micargi seattle ss) was going to put cyclone on? ya im crazy lol ill check your shop and my bank account lol thanks brother and enjoy the day! im all ears if any sugestions on motors?
@@JohnnyNerdOut I just checked says out of stock;(
Hi. have you done bike build with bafang m620 motor?
I am thinking to order bike frame with motor and use internal gear hub shimano 5e or enviolo. Currently i am a bit concerned about lifespan of internal hubs when they are used with powerful motor.
9000 foolishly zero maintenance, year round, all weather miles on my Nexus seven speed. Took it apart. It shows no wear whatsoever. These really should be overhauled annually. Admittedly, I was only using a BBSO2 350 watt with 48 volt, but amps turned up to 20. It easily climbed very wicked river bluff hills.
@@MHH3180 48 volts * 20 amps = theoretically that motor was pushing 960w, right?
@@Cobalt985 theoretical is correct. That is only near peak. You have to figure both the motor and the battery most likely allow spikes as high as 75 amps peak. Nominally, one could quite reasonably say 150 watts. I know that on my 500 watt nominal, 15 Amp peak (75 spike), torque sensing mid-drive, I average only a little over 100 watts in actual operation.
I think you need to cut the frame to use a belt drive, otherwise I don't know how you'd get the belt on.
There are belts that have a “master link” equivalent.
pull a bearing out the back of a full suspension bike to get a solid belt in the frame or buy a veer split belt which rivets together around any chainstays but you have to have a very straight chainline to start with. there is a guide and grid for measuring on their website. im doing both versions and also adding a alfine 8 speed IGH.
Your criticism is the price, but you then recommend the same hub. The price is the same.
What's your favorite animal? It could be a bug, too. ( 🐛 )
Thinking about a bafang mid drive- belt driven fat bike from china 😂
Im not normal, i purchased a bike from Priority Bikes \m/ 🚲🚲🚲
Total BS
Belts don't brake ever
I just checked the internet. It says they can break 🤔🤷♂️
So he’s just against the 300$, seems like the review was skewed because of cost. I’d like to hear about the other issues because 300$is nothing its like milk money. If i can get a far more reliable system.
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