I joined the Church when I was 11 yo with my parents and sister. We were active from day one. There have been Many trials throughout the years. Some came from outside the Church and some came from within the church. Sometimes I have just wanted to walk away from it all. BUT there is this thing called a testimony inside my heart.head and soul, and no matter what I felt about the situation, that thing called a Testimony would not back down. I would always recall the first time I received a direct answer to a question that I had asked the Lord. And I would realize that to leave the Church I would be giving up so much more than I could ever gain. Along with that testimony I would have to lose knowledge that only comes from being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no way I would ever give up that knowledge. It was just too precious to me. Then I would have to learn to live without the Holy Ghost as my constant companion. NEVER!!! And I would lose that sense of Peace that comes from living the gospel. I would never be allowed in the House of the Lord again because,of course, I wouldn’t have a temple recommend. The list of all the things I would be giving away is far too long. And I decided that it definitely wasn’t worth it. I Love the Lord and his Church with all my heart. And when someone inevitably hurts my feelings, well, no one ever said that we had to be perfect to be members. I am certainly not perfect either. So here I am, a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints since 1962. And I will always be grateful for that.❤
This reminds me of a quote from Testaments: of one fold and one shepherd (Helam to his son): I am happy for you because you are happy, but I am sad because your happiness cannot last."
We pay enough tithing every month to afford our two dream cars and a vacation home in St George. Those things would bring me temporary happiness and my kids would enjoy it immensely. However, God has commanded I give 10% of my increase for His kingdom. It’s a pleasure each month to donate a small part of my blessings. Keep up the great work Jacob !!
Uh... I'm sorry to inform you, but while D&C 89 says "increase", the church adamantly teaches that tithing is on your income. There's a big difference.
@@thereluctantwatchmanyeah and the church is organized around a central authority. So the scriptures may say this or that but the church is a living church and subject to slight changes. I’m doubtful you can point to a doctrine change lol.
@@elijiahburgess5506 Oh, it certainly does hang on its "keys and authority." All manner of deviations can be justified through "living" prophets or a "living" church. Just because things change doesn't mean they are correct, especially when those changes sometimes directly contradict the scriptures or even the Savior's own teachings. You'd be surprised at how many "doctrines" have changed since the day Joseph was killed.
@@thereluctantwatchman yes but the authority is traced back to Christ himself. This authority among other things can be seen as delegated trust. Did Christ trust Peter? Did Peter trust Linus or Joseph or Oliver? Did Joseph trust Brigham and the 12? Once you break this line you run into trouble. Are you a blasphemer? Do you not trust Jesus Christ? Who are you to question this authority? You are just a guy with a subjective opinion.
@@elijiahburgess5506 As D&C states, "keys and authority" only remain when the people/person is righteous. It is a great fallacy that "keys and authority" pass simply through hands on heads. Were that that case, then King Noah would have had all the authority necessary to carry forth the work among his people, yet he was a wicked man. Alma was given authority from God, not because he was a priest among wicked King Noah's court. FWIW, the "transfiguration event" of Brigham was a farce. Joseph did not trust Brigham. Samuel Smith was supposed to be the high priest of the church after JS and he was poisoned. I trust Jesus more than I trust men. Go and study 3 Nephi 16:10-11, when the gentile church rejects the fullness of the gospel, then Lord removes it and give it to the House of Israel upon this land. Those people being the see of Lehi or the Native Americans... some of them still having been given the authority in our day. But I believe it to be the pride of the LDS church that keeps them from understanding how that could happen.
All that temporary happiness is so fragile and can disappear in an unfortunate moment. It always blows my mind how many people lie to themselves that “all is well” when your health can deteriorate, money can disappear, and we all die. Life is full of danger and problems. Telling yourself that you’re happy isn’t going to give you the same peace of mind a clean conscience and a connection to God and the Holy Spirit give you.
People sometimes misunderstand what the plan of happiness is. It maximizes joy both individually and collectively. People naturally look towards the brightest light they can bear (i.e. when it first shows up it will draw their attention). Both literally and spiritually this holds true. Put a screen in front of someone and they will be drawn to look at it as long as it is brighter than the ambient light. Darken it to the point that it is darker than the surroundings and they will easily ignore it. If the light is painful for them to bear they will seek a lesser light which they can handle. This is the Plan of Happiness (happiness meaning pleasantly apt) alluded to in the Book of Mormon. It is the varying degrees of glory. As people live in accordance to the dictates of their own conscience they are happiest. I think Satan would be even more angsty living in the celestial kingdom (and everyone else probably less happy). "Nowadays we think of happiness as meaning merriment or pleasure. But that’s not what it meant during the Age of Enlightenment. The word “happy” is the adjectival form of the noun “hap,” which meant an event or a situation. This definition provided the basis for an assortment of “hap” words: mishap (a bad event), hapless (without any favorable events), and haphazard and happenstance (chance events). Thus, in its original form, the adjective “happy” referred to something that fit a particular event. A “happy thought” was one that was perfectly suited for the conversation; a “happy garment” was one that was appropriate for a social event. Scottish Enlightenment philosopher David Hume spoke of a “happy theory” because it kept fitting new data; Hume also penned a line that could serve as the dark horse motto: “He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper.”" "Dark Horse: Achieving Success Through the Pursuit of Fulfillment" by Todd Rose, Ogi Ogas -
That's exactly what it is. Yes people can be happy outside of the gospel but it's only temporary. It isn't true joy and everlasting like what the gospel of christ offers.
Sure, but you're putting your faith in something that may not be real. That's good for you and you have the right to believe what you do. But the belief that this world is all we have, and that you are incorrect about what happens when we die, is just as valid of a belief as your own belief. What is absolutely real about your belief is what it does to you in this life. Meaning, the only life that is guaranteed is the life you're living right now and your belief system is dictating how you live that life today. The same can be said about those that believe something totally different from you. Nobody actually knows what happens when we die. They only have a belief about what happens.
@@brningman Agreed here. The culture of the church needs to be more accepting of those with differing views (regarding people who leave the church, and in general of course).
“Living for yourself” can be seen as the true definition of hell. (Dantes Inferno) This concept is absolutely profound; living for something bigger than yourself and sacrificing for the greater good brings happiness. Thank you for being such upstanding men.
It’s kind of insulting to suggest that people outside of the church are only living for themselves. Are nonmembers incapable of living for something bigger? Of living for the common good? Of helping others? Your way of thinking is not the only one.
This verse sums it up for me best... Matthew 16:25 (KJV): “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” And Matthew 6:19-21 (KJV): “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
Wow, didn't expect to hear Art Hannemann mentioned in a Thoughtful Faith video. I worked at 7 Bros Laie when he came home from being a mission president. I remember every time that man entered the room I would be blasted with The Spirit. One of the kindest, most humble people I have ever interacted with.
Even the wicked will have a "their season"... but all seasons come to an end. That season may be 25 years or 2 minutes but nonetheless its theirs. Everyone on the earth will have their season. Even people who leave the church may find happiness for a season and that happiness may last for a significant period of time even until death. BUT....that happiness will end at death when they are confronted with the consequences of their actions. People who break their covenants, indulge in sinful behavior, mock spiritual things and turn and rend and fight against truth will one day come face to face with those actions and a measure of joy and happiness will be taken from them. I find it very interesting when people say they have left the church and exclaim a great happiness and yet you see them all over LDS sights never really leaving the church. If you are CONSTANTLY looking back at the church after declaring you have left I will never personally believe you are truly independently happy....
I left it was hard but I was super angry at the church for 7 years. Now that I’m over the anger phase I’ve been attending recently. Love the community and our willingness to do service. It takes less effort for me to do good for my fellow man participating in church. I know and love our culture and I feel at home with the saints so despite not having an I know testimony I believe the church provides great structure for developing one selves to discipleship, even as an agnostic I hope for the world to have more disciples of Christ.
Good for you my friend. Soon you will have a witness of the truth completely from Dad just because of your willingness to serve and your great heart. I am so glad that you came back so glad. I pray often in my heart for all people to return.
At times in our earthly existence, some of us want to "taste" the other unknown; earthly pleasures are nothing but fleeting moments of unrestricted pleasures.
@@mariewheeler5626 or maybe the earthly pleasures have zero to do with why many people leave the church... I don't drink or sleep around or use drugs or even swear. I just don't judge people for doing it now.
@@cubic-h6041 because I don't believe it's true. That's it. Still have some positive feelings about it, and family and friends who still believe, but I don't. I also don't believe it's universally good either. It can be good, but it teaches, and has taught, things that I believe are harmful.
" The baseless notion that we should "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us" is one of the most absurd lies in the universe" - Russell M. Nelson, Oct. general conference 2023
@@jwright-n1v well, I'm not going to debate the merits of that statement, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to suggest that anything happens to us when we die other than our body stops functioning and we are no more.
@@brningmanlol, there is a ton of evidence. The real question is what kind of evidence would you believe? Eye witnesses? Data from medical providers? Would you even trust your own experience? It’s all out there, you just need to look.
@@cubic-h6041 you provided zero evidence in your answer. What evidence is there to tell us what happens after we're dead other than what we can observe?
@@brningman I didn’t provide the evidence because you probably wouldn’t believe it anyway as you never answered my question as to what kind of evidence you would accept. Answer that first, and then I will provide evidence.
@@cubic-h6041 well, I just said there's nothing observable. If we could test it somehow that would be nice. If people came back in spirit form and talked to us. If angels visited us. If there was ANYTHING that pointed to people still being alive that doesn't require subjective experiences. It needs to be a part of objective reality, not just a feeling.
This is a great topic! I left the church when I was 18 and immediately I felt like a burden was lifted. I was now free to party and do what I wanted. But 9 years later I hit rock bottom and found myself humbly returning to church. I knew without a doubt that my failure was due to lack of obedience to Gods commandments. I used to wonder why it seemed like other people would have success after leaving the church but I didn't. It felt like I was held to a higher standard. Which is a good thing 😅. But it just seems like some people could get away with it while I couldn't.
Honestly you have to define what the word HAPPY means. If instant gratification or living for the moment is your goal then many people seem happy on the surface. The question you have to ask with sincerity, "Are they truly happy or is it an illusion?" Many people portray an image when in public, but are very unhappy in real life. I would rather struggle through life knowing I have joy in Christ, than live one single day in what the world believes happiness is. Happiness in the world is fleeting, but true happiness is in Christ. The world is in turmoil and chaos, but I have faith in Christ. There lies true joy and happiness. A smile, a hug, a kind word, a helping hand, genuine laughter from pure joy, reading the scriptures, partaking of the sacrament, being in the temple, spending quiet time with God, spending time with family, and going to bed at night knowing God loves you is true happiness. Life is fleeting!!
You're right that it is good to live for something that is bigger than you in the service of your family and community. However, this video reflects personal biases. When you believe the church is true, it's much easier to stay even if you are suffering because you think it is for a higher purpose. The difference between the man who chose to take care of his wife and a person choosing to stay in the church is that the man's wife is a physical person in his life Now that he really loves, the church is an institution and the purpose is only for an intangible afterlife. Even now I know that there is no way you as believing members could understand and that is because you've never had to experience how earth-shaking it is to go through a faith deconstruction. In those moments you realize that things you thought were unchanging and set in stone actually aren't. I guess one benefit to experiencing that is having the ability to see both from the perspective of a believing member and a non-believing person. Once you understand that, you can start to allow room for people to believe what they believe without viewing them in a negative light. Regardless of religion, its more beneficial for all people to pursue ethical principles based on kindness, service, love, and doing good towards others instead of requiring that people have to subscribe to your same beliefs about the truthfulness of a church and its doctrines.
It's Telestial happiness! I lived here for so long. There is something sooo much better spiritually when you give yourself to a higher law. And I have so much confidence that my spiritual happiness now will last beyond this life.
There’s TONS of happiness out there. The Gospel helps you find happiness that’s independent, universal, memetic, and sustainable. And that’s what makes the Gospel approach unique and important
Yes you can find happiness outside of the church but it is only temporary happiness I know this I left the church when I was 18 years old and I got re-baptized July 6th 2024 and I am 68 years old would I perceive to be the rules are the key to freedom and happiness
@@kealohajohnson2691 what kind of freedom are you referring to? I kind of understand the church definition, but, as someone who wasn't in the church for so long, what is your definition of the freedom the gospel provides?
@@brningmanI would consider for example, obeying the commandments of God, freedom. The world's attitude is 'anything goes'. Sounds good on paper, but the reality is, there are consequences to every choice. Some are eternal consequences. Many people find spiritual safety in the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it steers them in the right direction.
@@jwright-n1v I swear your answer comes straight from a church manual for the youth. I probably heard that same thing a million times in Sunday school. The gospel steers people in a specific direction. Whether it's the right direction is subjective. There are very clear ways that it can be beneficial and other ways in which it's less beneficial.
@@brningmanliving the law of chastity has given me (and my wife) freedom. Freedom from STDs, from having to deal with the emotions from multiple sexual partners, from comparing partners, from having hard feelings about “my ex” and freedom from doubt knowing that all my kids are my own. The peace and loyalty cannot be bought. And that’s just one commandment. The church leads people in the RIGHT direction.
Living for happiness is a fool’s errand, no matter whether someone thinks it’s eternal. All happiness is fleeting, as much as pain, or sorrow. These things are situational because they are emotions. God isn’t happy all the time. Heaven isn’t happy all the time; That’s a children’s fiction. He weeps and feels anger like any person. Live for principles and for ideals, and you can’t be disappointed or shaken because you are fixed on a sure foundation.
This is a great question, but it's difficult for anyone who hasn’t left the church to answer honestly, as they may not fully understand the perspective of those who have. It's entirely possible to leave the church and still uphold values like not littering, caring for family, loving others, serving the community, maintaining a relationship with Christ, and being genuinely happy. These comparisons are not truly equivalent. Active members who follow the 'covenant path' may struggle to relate to former members who find greater happiness outside the church. The challenge is that many fully immersed in the Church believe theirs is the only path to eternal happiness, which is narrow-minded and short sighted. It reminds me of that joke where, after people pass on, God gives them a tour of heaven. They pass a room with a closed door, and when the new arrival asks why, God responds, 'That room is full of Mormons-they think they’re the only ones here.'
"Good, better, best." Elder oaks. God wants us to seek the best form of happiness, not just good or better happiness. That is way we are to seek exaltation, even the lower kingdoms of glory are still more glorious than mortal life, but God wants us to have the best.
Pity it's nearly impossible to reach on your own like why should I be forced to be with another when I'm content by myself let me labor for greatness by myself then waste my time with another and lose it all
I do often see people that leave the church and are happier after they leave, and I think that often it's genuine. We often are stressed and unhappy when we are making a tough decision, and usually facing a lot of cognitive dissonance. Resolving that conflict in our mind - whichever direction we go - will bring a significant amount of relief. Just like when you were in high school, and you had huge assignment due the next day and you are up late worrying about it, then finally you reach the moment of peace and relief when you "accept" that you just won't have it done on time. You feel happy, relieved, and suddenly you have more time. You'll have a lower grade for turning it in late, but you've accepted that fate already and you're happier with the lower outcome than you were struggling to reach a standard you didn't feel you could meet anyway. When people leave the church they often find relief and happiness, but so do people who let go of their sins and their pride and repent and turn to the Lord. Either way will find a resolution to the current state of misery. And often people may go years being unhappy, struggling in the state of indecision and unwillingness to let go of their pride and submit themselves to the Lord. So whether they humble themselves or they reject their old paradigm, they will find more happiness than they had during their time of indecision. It's also very easy to be "happy" for any snapshot in time. As you stretch your time horizon out further and further, it becomes more difficult to sustain happiness unless you are doing things Christ's way.
"I" agree with this video; I've got a lot of thoughts on this subject. I have good friends, and my spouse, who have left the church and they're happier. It's not a bad thing! I think church culture has made it "heart breaking" for when people leave. Sure, per our belief, it is, BUT we can't ignore agency, Article of Faith 11, and the fact that per our theology, there are kingdoms of glory for everyone. We literally preach 'you will go where you are most happy.' That's an incredibly loving gift from God. I'll also mention, I think church culture is often too close-minded. 1) The Lord is merciful, and of course will not be mocked. 2) Life is about progressing "from glory to glory". 3) Are people forgetting about the millennium??? Jesus will physically be here for 1,000 years. That's a LONG TIME! We'll all still have our agency, and 'both sides of the veil' will still be preached to. Frankly, I think for those who left the church, seeing prophecies fulfilled right in front of them and Jesus using the Temples we've built, uhhhh, I think that may be convincing for a lot of people and that's ok! John 20:29 with Jesus speaking to "doubting" Thomas. I'm not trying to preach a soothing doctrine that we don't have to repent right now, but we control ourselves and not others. We can't be forceful, so at the very least, we should hope and help all people turn to Christ. The last thing we should do is push people away, ruin friendships or family bonds, or cut ties. It's easy to have that perception given we do "sealings" for eternity. I feel like we as a people need to let things play out sometimes. Tons of examples of people leaving the church and come right on back and are better through that journey! Comeback Podcast showcases this. I'm really over society calling us a "cult" and a large part of that is because there's been instances where a son/daughter leave the church and the parents shun them. C'mon people! We've got Heavenly Father creating children who end up being 'murderers' and mocking Him yet we still preach that He loves the sinner and is capable of forgiving them! We can't still include and love our family members or friends who've got an issue with polygamy?? How can we be so hypocritical for a church of people who's trying to be like the Savior? It's not like they're committing crimes! The last shall be first, and the first shall be last. Let's help people on their 'journey' of mortality; faith crisis or not. I've always had this thought that the "weeping, mourning, and gnashing of teeth" may very well be us Latter Day Saints who see sinners enter into the Celestial Kingdom; those who lived a life of sin but truly did repent, enter in. I'm convinced that we've got to be so charitable and merciful ourselves to accept that the last shall be first and the first shall be last if we want what we preach being exaltation.
I have yet to experience a ward full of truly happy members inside the Church as well. Most members I know are too busy and stressed "enduring", they forget to experience happiness in living.
I’m torn on this. I grew up in the church and I recognize how much it has shaped my life in a positive way and in a lot of ways, has kept me safe. On the flip side, when I fell into a deep faith/trust crisis about ten years ago, the church has also caused me so much pain and anguish over that time and I’ve had days where I wish I was never part of it. I’m still an active member but I live with a lot of cognitive dissonance, and that can be mentally and spiritually exhausting. Many people have been put into this situation and I hope things continue to improve.
In my opinion, the greatest things about the church (faith and community) aren't really unique to the church. I really like some of the beliefs. But others are still hard to grapple with. I lost my faith a few years ago when I allowed for the possibility that the church might not be true. Just reading the gospel topics essays is enough to cast doubt on the validity of things like revelation from prophets. But I like to say that while the church is great for some people, it's not great for all people. That was an eye-opening realization to me. You either conform to what the church expects of you or you struggle your whole life feeling like you're not good enough. At least, that's how it was for me. This is the only life that we're guaranteed. I decided that I didn't want to live my one guaranteed life in that way anymore, feeling constantly unworthy, and feeling like, as an example, gay people are somehow wrong for being the way they are. I also grew up with strong racist ideologies because of the church. I wasn't necessarily overtly racist, but certain beliefs that I had definitely were. It's embarrassing, honestly. But not everyone is me, and people very close to me still believe. I hope that you continue to find strength in your beliefs and that the cognitive dissonance diminishes over time.
@@brningman Thank you for your kind comment, I really appreciate it. I used to be one that would see people leave and think, how could they ever walk away from this. Now I don’t blame people at all, I’ve studied a lot over the years and I try and help people work through doubts and struggles but at the end of the day, I never judge anyone for choosing their own path. You are right, it was the gospel topic essays and the Saints books that really led me down a spiral of doubt and confusion. I know enough to easily justify walking away but there is also enough to hold on to in my opinion, hence the cognitive dissonance:) I personally believe this is Christs church restored but that over a 200 year history, many false ideas and traditions have crept and some still exist today. It is embarrassing the way we’ve stood behind horrible ideas and have not always taken accountability or been forthright, I know that’s not the Lords way. I have hope for the future though.
@@LovelyMichelleScott I am not sure if you’ve ever been through a faith or trust crisis within the LDS church but bit can be incredibly painful. Over the past ten years, I’ve spent thousands of hours learning new things and trying to grapple with them and better understand them. It’s indisputable that the church whitewashes its history and that can be hard to cope with. History in many areas is messy and I’m okay with that, just be honest with me and own it when mistakes are made. In my opinion, we are still holding on to some horrible things today and blaming them on God, which I find disturbing. I love the church but they just can’t get out of their own way sometimes.
@@Commenter2121 I sincerely hope you continue to find strength in your beliefs and a welcoming community within the church. You seem open-minded and well aware of all the issues that exist, so I don't feel the need to say anything else. Life is hard and giving up your faith has the potential to make it even harder. Sending positive vibes your way, regardless of what path you continue down.
I find that there is a world of difference between happiness and joy, at least in the way we use the word “happiness” today. Joy is the kind of thing that you can still feel when things are extremely difficult, when you are deeply sorrowful, or when you are unsure about the future. Joy is like a buoy that lifts you up to ride atop the sea of life’s inevitable challenges. I have felt happiness outside of Jesus, but I have found joy only through covenant living. The difference, in my experience, could not be more stark.
I do wish we used the term 'joy' more than happiness. I've followed the Spirit at times in my life that lead to some really difficult and unpleasant circumstances that helped me grow. I wouldn't say I necessarily 'happier' during those difficult times. In fact they were extremely painful and full of grief and at times depression. But at the same time I did also have periods of relief, joy and hope that others don't get in quite the same way because it came from the Spirit. And going through these difficult times has helped me relate to others with more compassion. Another thought is that this is the great plan of happiness. But part of that plan was to go through difficult emotions like sadness, grief and anger so that we could feel and further enjoy happiness, love and joy. Sometimes feeling those difficult emotions may be more of what we need as part of our development on earth.
This is so true. It made me tear up. I really don't think we, as members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, are living for easy, carefree, eternal happiness. Like Jacob said, we are living from something that is bigger than us. Even if it doesn't mean Heaven is all sunshine and rainbows. I think that true eternal happiness comes with tribulation, refining, learning, growing, stretching - for eternity. Our celestial eternity will not be the Heaven that most Christians think Heaven should be (comfort and ease). It is helping God with his purposes (to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all men). It wont be easy, but we will be happy as well help others experience happiness. Thoughts?
I would also be happier if I slept in every day till 2, skipped work, dropped out of school, and spent my time eating and sleeping. But should I really? Would I really be better off? Would I progressing?
Without going into too much detail, I once watched someone do whatever they wanted, ALL DAY, for a full year! And, they were depressed and not happy. It didn't give them anything.
I'm wanting to push gently back on this... I don't think that you would be happy (or happier) if you lived this way... and for most people who have left the church, I don't think this is literally what they're doing, nor is it a helpful metaphor.
@@trainwreck656 I don’t think everyone outside the church is without God. But if you are inside the church and you leave. You are choosing to leave God on a certain level. And depending on your choices could lose Him from your life h less you repent.
@@Sissysue22 my only point is that we must avoid insular attitudes and stereotypes. Some who have left the church evidently felt the church to be the best hope for a faith home and are so let down that they at least on a surface level abandon faith in God. Others feel that it is the Church that has lost the path and they worship in a different place or way. Others just want an excuse to abandon faith but I think they are the minority. Regardless, if we want to help, we can not be seen to be labeling people and putting them into a group. Everyone has their own challenges.
@@trainwreck656 it seems like you’re fear of offending other people impedes your judgement of understanding that there are consequences when you break your covenants. My original comment said nothing about never members. I’m talking about people who decide to leave the church. I know a lot of them and of the group that I know. None of them believe in God anymore, very few are practicing religion elsewhere.
Care only for oneself = telestial; care for others because it’s the right thing to do = terrestrial; care for others because you don’t know how to do anything else, pure love = celestial, most of the world is in the middle, church or not
Correction for the last part it's not cause you don't know how to do anything else it's because that is all you care to do. God knows evil yet never acts upon it he only chooses to do good for that is all that matters to him regardless of what others think same with Jesus. We saw how he cleaned the temple and healed people on the Sabbath day not because it was simply the right thing to do or that is all he knew it was because that is only mattered to him. The opinions of others who did scorn him didn't matter all that mattered was doing good.
It's all about temporary happiness. Along the way, they will find out sooner or later that happiness outside living the gospel is not going to last forever! 😊
I hope for your sake you’re correct. It would be a shame if you dedicated your entire to life to something that requires you to sacrifice potential sources of happiness, only for there to be nothing after life. Meanwhile, I’m gonna live a life that not only makes me happy, but uplifts and helps my loved ones and fellow community members. I don’t want to waste any of it because it might be all we get.
I think the best way to answer this question is to talk to people who left the church (much the same as Austin Fife) and then came back. Ask them the difference in their personal happiness between being out of the church and in the church. From what I've seen during interviews online, the majority of people are happier in the church. I also think it depends on what your measure of happiness is. Is it pleasure in the moment, or is it long-term contentment? The second is harder to measure because you need time to see the difference. The second one is what I see from most of the people who have come back. They discovered that the fleeting nature of worldly happiness isn't sustainable and actually leaves an emptiness once it no longer satisfies.
@@branten123 I've tried watching some of his videos, and I personally think he looks miserable. I don't know him personally, so I can't say that for sure. Do you know him personally? It is one thing to keep saying "I'm happier. I'm happier." But the more you have to say that, the less true it is because it starts to come across as an attempt to convince yourself and others that it's true when it isn't.
I think it's absolutely the case that happiness can be idolized. I personally don't like the approach many take in church of focusing on the church as a clinic. The gospel is not a pathology alone and Christ is not only a physician. The gospel is a gospel of laws and ordinances and making the moral appeals of duty and responsibility have always resonated more with me. The happiness approach is likely why John Dehlin views the atonement as a deficit model. He is in a sense on to something, but came to the wrong conclusion. We make the distinction between the fallen world and celestial world. We tend to think we live in a fallen world, but I think this might not be the best explanation. The world isn't bad, after all, Christ said to consider the lilies for they toil not. The rich man was asked to pick up his cross and follow Christ. The rich man was not asked to pick up another burden, but was asked to drop the burden of the fallen world and do as President Nelson says "Think Celestial". I think a lot of members feel caught in this process thinking they constantly fail, have to feel bad and repent. This is just the fallen world way of looking at things. It's a cultural thing, you act it out because you know other people do it because that's the way you're supposed to do it. When you truly get it, you walk the covenant path without a mind towards worldly thinking and happiness is a byproduct.
Let us remember the counsel from President Joseph F. Smith (1905). He pointed out that the Prophet Joseph believed that “a religion which has not the power to save people temporally and make them prosperous and happy here, cannot be depended upon to save them spiritually, to exalt them in the life to come” (“The Truth About Mormonism,” Out West: A Magazine of the Old Pacific and the New, Sept. 1905, 242.)
The thing you guys compliantly “woosh” on: “Things like honor and truth and beauty and goodness were more important than their very lives.” This is exactly why I left. You think the church and its experience has a monopoly on this? Or that the church as a whole are even doing it well? No. I left for honor. I left for truth. I left because the goodness in my family IS MORE IMPORTANT than my very life. I know the feeling you’re promoting, i know how you feel being a member. I know you FEEL like you’re serving something greater than yourself. I know that feeling. You’re making it seem like universally all those who leave do NOT have that. I have that more than ever. Most all who have the courage to leave despite it being incredibly difficult also have that. Do people leave to sin and have pleasure only lives? Sure. But look around: you’d be crazy to say we’re even doing it “well” in the heart of Zion. We’re no closer to Enoch’s city than we were before Jospeh Smith. We just have better suits, better confrence centers. The arrogance of this “perspective” being presented in this video is so anti-Christ it is laughable to say its from the Christ of the New Testament.
Well said. The thing that these guys can’t understand is how badly most of us wanted to STAY in the church. But our INTEGRITY and Honor after learning about all the lies and deception, eventually demands that we leave to seek truth outside of the church. It can be so painful and lonely, and unless you’ve gone through a crisis of faith (crisis of truth actually ) you will never understand.
@@cubic-h6041 I see you've really broken down the fact that you might not need to go to a church to be Christlike. Crazy idea: be Christlike. Do you really think the plan was to be "inspired" by general conference to go out and love thy neighbor?
@@cubic-h6041 crazy idea, we do live in communities. I didn't say "become a hermit" i said be Christlike. Christ started a church, when there is one that acts like him, I'll join! 😃
The purpose of the church existence is prepare people for the next life. Do we want to be exalted for eternity or do we want a shack in the telestial kingdom. Eternity is a long time. The world will give us some happiness but the time is always ticking away until that happiness expires.
I don't begrudge former members their happiness outside of the Church. However, I have never once in my entire life met someone outside the Church with whom I would want to trade places.
I would add that it is an issue of what you value as a person. If you value the things of this world, then you probably would be happier outside of the Church. The genius of God's plan is that people inherit the degree of glory that they desire, be it celestial, terrestrial, or telestial.
Here's the bitter truth... Their happiness is temporary. As preachy and self-righteous as that sounds, the people who leave the church and then say they are "happier for it," won't be happy in the long run. It may take years, it may take decades even..... But eventually, that decision to leave the church will come back and haunt them.
@@brningmanTruth hurts buddy. You’ll realize that someday. Contrary to what you believe…many things ARE BLACK AND WHITE. No. There’s no legitimate reason to leave the church (even when many members conclude that there theoretically could be). Sometimes, someone’s decision is simply wrong and doesn’t need to be overanalyzed, kinda like you do in all the comments you leave on Thoughtful Faith videos. Your decision to walk away from the church is wrong and it will come back to haunt you. You will not be happy in the long run unless you return and start living the principles again. Sorry, not sorry.
@@aljeffs418 I know you're not sorry. Your self-righteousness is off the charts. The issue is that when someone dies that's it. We have no idea what happens at that point. It's your right to be confident. But you're not right and I'm not wrong. That's the issue with faith: it's not based on what you can see or touch. Beliefs based on faith are unprovable. They are strong opinions, that's it.
@@brningmanSo you've implemented the philosophy of Korihor as the foundation for your life and beliefs. It's become pretty obvious why you leave such condescending and sad responses on every one of Thoughtful Faith's videos. It's people like you that make me grateful that my self-righteousness is off the charts. P.s ... you are still wrong. You are wrong for leaving the church.
This all assumes the LDS church is the bastion of truth and beauty and generational happiness leading to Zion. “I’ll go wherever you want me to go, Lord” has legitimately led many people out of the LDS church into something bigger than themselves. Something to consider.
When most people who have left the Church use the phrase "I am happy!" they are typically talking about personal pleasure and convenience . . . The idea of living a selfless life or sacrificing for others (as the Savior taught) is not their central priority. They're about themselves and constantly taking their own temperature. Acting on their own and creating a God that conforms to their own logic and feelings is their gospel, and they do not want a God who is too inconvenient. They also like to constantly remind us who have stayed in the Church how happy they are.
Even though my heart goes out to those that leave and those that struggle to stay. I hope that they can find heaven through God’s plan, not through their own. And a scripture that comes to mind when people say that they are “happier” outside the church is when the Savior came to the Nephites and said in 3 Nephi 27:11 11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return. We can become happy outside the church, but it is an eternal happiness that we give up for a temporal one.
current happiness in the now is the only true barometer for alignment with god “You will not be restored to a different state” you are precisely in the “kingdom” appropriate to your state in any given moment. Your body is pretty quick to let you know if you ate the wrong food, same with your spirit. It doesn’t take till the other life to find out where your going, your always precisely there. I found personally that always writing off a sense of monotony or disgruntlement with, “well the rewards come in the next life, this ones the test” is like offloading your actual connection to the iron rod, which is an internal signal. Your barometer for alignment with god is actually so specific, that it cant fit into words or the pages of a book. Feelings are commandments, written ones are secondary.
I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I still go to church now because I am trying my best to CHANGE the bad behavior and false doctrine being taught there. However, at what point do you say admit that your attempts at helping are seen as apostate behavior by leaders and you are no longer even welcome. My leaders have actually told me to stop mentioning things like the family proclamation because it is too offensive. When the apple gets so rotten, are you now just supporting something wicked? Are you just Alma deciding to stay with King Noah instead of leaving to build something better? Jacob has even said he would leave if the church allowed temple sealing for LGBT. Well, we are actually getting pretty darn close right now.
Yea I would like to know what ward and stake you are in as well...and if they are complaining to you about sharing the Proclamation of the Family I'm sure the Brethren would like to know that as well. And please provide proof we are getting close to allowing sealing the LGQT community!?...
I'm not going to tell you my ward. I'm not going to dox myself. What is wrong with you asking me to disclose personal info like that? Suffice it to say, my stake is in the Midwest, in a very Conservative area. My ward is far more liberal than the general population here.
The PROOF is that we are moving closer and closer to it every year. Have you been living in a closet? They do photo ops with them doing temple tours. They allowed the gay men's choir sing at the temple. They are allowing openly trans people to be baptized. Pay attention.
@@fightingfortruth9806 a general area would have sufficed. Document the false teachings and discuss with stakeholders. It’s not unheard of having local leaders get off track. Doing so with tact and love goes a long way too.
I became more religious/spiritual after leaving the church. In fact, the BoM was a big factor in that. As D&C 84 states, the church is condemned for not following the commandments contained therein. As the church departed from the gospel, I had to leave the church to follow Christ and what He was teaching me. Am I happy? I'm actually heartbroken by what the leaders have done, but I do find solace in God's love.
@@hrv4908 We could go on down the list. Tithing changed. How authority or keys operated changed. How high priests are called changed. The law of common consent changed. The temple changed... again and again and again. Oh, and Joseph wasn't a polygamist and D&C 132 is a hacked revelation. The council of 50 disbanded. Blacks had the priesthood removed by Brigham. Then we could go into more modern times with all sorts of crazy stuff.
@@thereluctantwatchman Those are operational adjustments, not doctrinal. The Gospel remains the same. I love the excuses you anties come up with to try to justify your rebellion. Go on with the life you've chosen and enjoy where it takes you.
@@hrv4908 LOL... I love how nuanced you have to be to be a member today. "Anti" means anyone who doesn't agree with your flavor-of-the-day "living" leader. Joseph Smith would be considered "anti-Mormon" per the modern "doctrines." And yes, they are doctrines. The doctrine of "we can never lead you astray" is anti-Christian. Go read JST Mark 9 and tell me who the "eye" is and why the LDS leaders intentionally omitted the eye from their header description.
@thereluctantwatchman come back to church. You're living on false logic. Doctrine never changes, but commandments do. Give your leaders the same grace and charity Christ gives you.
The thing is that while someone may think they are happy having a good time out on the lake in their boat, what about when the boat sinks and they lose a child? What will they have then? This life is only the tip of the iceberg. Life in the terrestrial kingdom might be full of pleasurable pursuits like boating and sports, hiking and football, but there will be no family life.
Joy is the opposite of despair. The gospel of Jesus Christ brings joy. When we experience the hardships of life we can still have joy because we still have the gospel of Jesus Christ to sustain us. Those without the gospel are more likely to experience despair when life gets hard.
Most people can be happy outside of the Church because humans naturally follow the Golden Rule in order to mutually achieve happiness and pleasure. Where people will most likely suffer outside of the Church is at the level of forgiveness. Secular morality does not readily teach to be forgiving to your enemies or even those that just plain bother you. It also does not readily teach sobriety and moderation in all things. Without a mechanism (such as, say, the existence of a God that will ultimately judge you and give you either reward or punishment in the afterlife) for ensuring that people follow these norms and others, people will readily jettison them when convenient. It's these finer points where I think Latter-day Saints and Christians have the advantage over secularists.
I'm an active member, but I'm just going to be honest in saying that church makes me completely miserable every Sunday because I very rarely hear the true gospel being taught there anymore. Every Priesthood and Sunday School lesson is full of woke perspectives and commentary. Anyone who brings up more difficult things like the family proclamation or Alma 5 or (most of) Paul's teachings gets shot down and ridiculed in class. So yeah, I'm not enjoying church anymore because of this. It's a lot of phony niceness and soft acceptance of evil behaviors.
You should consider exploring a strong biblical Christian church. I would find a good reformed church. If there is one near you, a church that is part of the PCA (Presbyterian Churches in America) would be a great start. A lot of non-denominational and Southern Baptist churches are strong but will be more modern styles of worship which may not suit you. If you can find an SBC church that is more traditional that would be really good though. If you’re interested in help finding a good church to plug in to, let me know and I can do some research of churches in your area and recommend a few.
I feel you on this. So many members are just social members and take their doctrine and history spoon fed to them on Sundays but don’t put in the work to truly learn the gospel. It can be difficult when you feel the need for more and you feel like you aren’t getting it at church.
It is not the church that gives you or anyone else happiness. Happiness and joy comes by coming unto Christ, repenting of your sins, desiring goodness in your heart, living the higher law that Christ taught and living the law of love. Who cares what’s being taught in church or not, anyone who lives by these principles will live after the manner of happiness.
I have spoken to my bishop. I served as the ward clerk years ago, and one Sunday after we had left bishopric counsel, he pulled me aside and literally said, "you need to keep your mouth shut" about speaking against homosexual behavior. It was extremely harsh.
I still feel like it's as easy as asking what would the Savior do? If you truly feel the Savior would have suggested that a wife leave a marriage in a extremely bad situation. If it's really that bad, then I guess that's the right choice. But the Savior frequently chose a hard path for the benefit of his brothers and sisters. And in many ways his happiness did not come until after he was crucified and rose from the dead. What manner of men ought we to be?
Some people will be "happier" because they have always felt as though the church held them back from doing "fun/happy" things of the world. These people are inclined to need the affirmation of the great and spacious building rather than God. God's affirmation is an intrinsic affirmation while the world offers an extrinsic value. Until they are aligned to God instead of the world, they will likely perceive their life without the church as being much more appealing. As the scriptures say, those who pursue their affirmation from the world will not be able to abide God's presence and would rather be separted from God.
Well doubt they were ever happy in the church either. People are happy not because they belong to the church but because they live in harmony with the principles of the gospel. If you stop living those principles in or out of church , it doesn’t really matter you wont find the joy you seek. There are happy people at church and there are miserable people at church😅
Jacob, you guys are so close. Why do you feel there needs to be a qualifier to this happiness if you’re not a member of the church? You hit the nail on the head, those who live the higher law and strive to live a life of love and charity will live after the manner of happiness. There is never a “but” attached to someone outside of the church who truly lives a Christ like life. I say this a a life long active member of the church. The scriptures are very clear on this, ANYONE who comes unto Christ and repents of their sins and desires righteousness in their heart and lives the higher laws that Christ taught at the sermon on the mount, will be blessed with true happiness and joy. You don’t have to be a member of the church to live in this manner.
Is there room for faith in this discussion? If I left at one point, but later returned choosing to stay, I attribute that to my faith as well as gifts received that I keep privately.
A belief in a higher power without God requires a significant degree of self-regulation and compassion uncommon in the natural man. Conscientiousness development and personal sacrifice is necessary for happiness outside the restored gospel. Strive with all your heart and mind!
After I left the church I got married and had three kids and raised seven foster kids over about 15 years. I don't know many people who will even raise one foster kid. I'm an atheist and love my big unconventional family. How many foster kids do you have Jacob?
@@-tikla my dad is a smug LDS man like Jacob Hansen. He tells me I have inferior values because I left the church. I find it infuriating that members of the church believe they are superior to non members or have "true joy" or whatever they claim. There's nothing uniquely good or useful about Mormonism
What right does a person have in a secular world to “tell others what they should do?” Free speech and moral relativism. In our culture, “any” moral truth is tolerated and “celebrated.” If this is not honored by non-theists, you must remind them of their ultimate higher power: tolerance.
It would be a mistake to remain in the church because doing so makes you happy. If that is your reason for being in the church, then you are simply a mercenary that’s been hired for the cause of righteousness. As soon as something else comes along offering more happiness, then you’ll leave to go there, irrespective of whether doing so would be right or wrong. The only meaningful thing is to do what is right, and righteousness can only be proven by punishing it. If people are rewarded for righteousness every time, then how do we know they are righteous because it is right or because it’s convenient? If doing the right thing leads to pain, then we can actually prove we are righteous because it is right and not because we are rewarded or because it was easier. We ought to expect suffering and pain to come in greater abundance in the church than if we remain outside of the church. Spiritual rewards will always accompany righteousness, however, we must be willing to do what is right without expectation of reward to develop true virtue.
You can find deep fulfillment and joy, outside of the Mormon church. Experiencing world religions, and finding deep and abiding truth is a good thing outside of the LDS church. As a woman, the Mormon church offers literally nothing, and being a 3rd class citizen is appalling and unhelpful, and I found it extremely damaging. I would never go back, as my religion that I've reverted to (before my parents converted) I find much better, and spiritually nourishing. It's simply not true that everyone who leaves, just wants to have fun and sin.
7:00 this argument also validates predation imo. it also means you should have something to kill for. Life should serve a higher goal, should be sacrificed toward something, not just your own, but those lives of others, by individuals with the ability to channel the will. I believe thats what men like JS/BY did when they started this church. They definitely had some machiavellian traits (read devils gate) had they not, this church would have never gotten off the ground to begin with, we should accept them for their more nietzschean side present in the records we hold of their literal actions as well to get a full picture of them, not just what they spoke openly in conference halls. Mormonism is a product of its actions, even more so than its doctrine. When my grandfather who owned all of ogden entrusted its care to brigham young while he went on his mission, brigham young used the opportunity to take everything he owned and sign it under the name of the church. needless to say, he left the church with nothing but to have lost the family inheritance to brigham young and his lion house. Kinda brutal, but thats nature, had our founding leaders not been the machiavellians their actions prove them to be, we would never have the church we know today. It is an integral part of the mormon recipe that anti mo’s condemn and tbm’s deny. Why not revere them for it?
Were the people in the great and spacious building happy? They certainly acted happy. I think if we asked them they would say they were happy. But… We all know how that story ends. It ended badly. It ended with a great crash. The kind of happiness they were experiencing was transitory and fleeting. It was unsustainable. It was without a lasting foundation. All who seek happiness outside the gospel will eventually experience the same unfortunate end, no matter what they may say in the moment.
A crass but great comment by a recent convert who worked in black ops military operations all over the world. He said "ive drunk every kind of alcoholic product and injected, snorted, smoked or eaten every kind of drug, i've partied and banged women of every kind all across the world, but nothing, i mean nothing, ive ever done even compares to the peace and happiness I feel from experiencing the atonement of Christ and joining his Church"
Ironic thing is… The Savior was “a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief” I guess all those who leave the church and have more “happiness” have it right…🙄
They are happy because they want to get tattoos, drink coffee and alcohol, wear tank tops and cuss. And this is not me stereotyping. I literally see this in almost every ex member of the church I come across of.
You can ask anyone what makes someone happy then ask how long will that thing will last or what would happen if that was gone tomorrow. Most things to live for have a hard time passing the test of what are you living for and what is the evidence what you are living for is reliable besides Jesus Christ.
Terrestrial people living a celestial law will perhaps be less happy than they would be if they choose to live the law that matches who they are. Fortunately for those who can only live a lower law, there are kingdoms of glory for them. God forces nobody to go to hell or damnation. We get to choose where we live after we die and those with whom we will associate.
yes, I have met many many many happy people outside LDS Church. Can you define "Happy" ?..... Did you think the Lord Jesus lived happy life while on Earth ?
Don’t knock terrestrial people, of course they would be happier living a terrestrial life. The fullness of the gospel and exaltation isn’t for everyone. For some reason people find these statements arrogant, it’s not it’s just an acknowledgement of Christ’s many mansions.
The irony of your comment is that those teaching you quoted came from the same apostles and prophets who instituted polygamy, taught Adam God theory, banned black members from priesthood and temple ordinances and that we would govern our own worlds and blood atonement. All of which have been changed or denounced by subsequent leaders. Believing what leaders teach does not mean it is true. If those scriptures give you room to judge others and they tell you you are somehow better than others then go ahead and cherish them. I personally think that is sad.
@@ericredd5590 What percentage of Church teachings has been denounced? Picking and choosing a small number of things leaders got wrong doesn't mean much. Leaders are fallible - everyone knows that.
@@Mr-Thou what percentage do you feel you can rely on that you think will never change? As a youth did you think 1% or 5%. I had a testimony that prophets spoke the mind and will of God. You and many other have told me that is not the case. Based on that and many other observations. I choose not to look to them as a reliable source to understand God.
@@ericredd5590 My understanding of God as a youth is not a great way to judge reality. As a rule of thumb, I do what Nephi did in 1 Nephi 2 - when the prophet tells me I need to do something, I pray to know of myself if it's true. I understand the prophet has the authority to lead the Church and perform ordinances, but he's just as human as I am. That authority gives him an edge, though. I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm pretty sure they're more reliable than you and I. When your great-grandkids read your opinions on the Internet, I suspect they're going to find them less appealing than Russell M. Nelson's.
@@Mr-Thou how do you know they are reliable when, historically, they've been shown to give bad instructions? There were people who denounced church policies way before the prophets did and they lost their membership even though they were correct in their assessments. Praying is a great way to try to find guidance from God. Unfortunately, lots of prayers still kept the policy regarding black members of the church in place for 126 years. Can prayers even be trusted? And are you allowed to NOT follow the prophet? I guess you're allowed to as long as you don't talk about it. But the church will still follow what the prophet says, even if you disagree. So what happens then? Or are you confident that won't ever happen?
I have never ever been treated worse then by the church. I am a 64 year old life long member. Widow of 34 years. My girls were abused by a bishopric member. He was protected and I was called a liar and lost my recommend. My high priest member stole my house. I was renting a home from my bishop and his wife, they told me to get out because they were tearing the house down. It was a lie. They rented it out from under me for more money. I became homeless. My bishop wouldn’t talk to me but sent the relief society pres over with the number to the women’s homeless shelter in Provo. I slept in my car for 3 months in the middle of winter. Such Christlike people.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I was inactive for years. My life is so much better now that I'm active.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii good for you then.
Same
I joined the Church when I was 11 yo with my parents and sister. We were active from day one. There have been Many trials throughout the years. Some came from outside the Church and some came from within the church. Sometimes I have just wanted to walk away from it all. BUT there is this thing called a testimony inside my heart.head and soul, and no matter what I felt about the situation, that thing called a Testimony would not back down. I would always recall the first time I received a direct answer to a question that I had asked the Lord. And I would realize that to leave the Church I would be giving up so much more than I could ever gain.
Along with that testimony I would have to lose knowledge that only comes from being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no way I would ever give up that knowledge. It was just too precious to me. Then I would have to learn to live without the Holy Ghost as my constant companion. NEVER!!! And I would lose that sense of Peace that comes from living the gospel. I would never be allowed in the House of the Lord again because,of course, I wouldn’t have a temple recommend. The list of all the things I would be giving away is far too long. And I decided that it definitely wasn’t worth it. I Love the Lord and his Church with all my heart. And when someone inevitably hurts my feelings, well, no one ever said that we had to be perfect to be members. I am certainly not perfect either. So here I am, a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints since 1962. And I will always be grateful for that.❤
This reminds me of a quote from Testaments: of one fold and one shepherd (Helam to his son):
I am happy for you because you are happy, but I am sad because your happiness cannot last."
@@JackSonOfJohn such a good movie
That movie goes surprisingly hard.
We pay enough tithing every month to afford our two dream cars and a vacation home in St George. Those things would bring me temporary happiness and my kids would enjoy it immensely. However, God has commanded I give 10% of my increase for His kingdom. It’s a pleasure each month to donate a small part of my blessings. Keep up the great work Jacob !!
Uh... I'm sorry to inform you, but while D&C 89 says "increase", the church adamantly teaches that tithing is on your income. There's a big difference.
@@thereluctantwatchmanyeah and the church is organized around a central authority. So the scriptures may say this or that but the church is a living church and subject to slight changes. I’m doubtful you can point to a doctrine change lol.
@@elijiahburgess5506 Oh, it certainly does hang on its "keys and authority." All manner of deviations can be justified through "living" prophets or a "living" church. Just because things change doesn't mean they are correct, especially when those changes sometimes directly contradict the scriptures or even the Savior's own teachings. You'd be surprised at how many "doctrines" have changed since the day Joseph was killed.
@@thereluctantwatchman yes but the authority is traced back to Christ himself. This authority among other things can be seen as delegated trust. Did Christ trust Peter? Did Peter trust Linus or Joseph or Oliver? Did Joseph trust Brigham and the 12? Once you break this line you run into trouble. Are you a blasphemer? Do you not trust Jesus Christ? Who are you to question this authority? You are just a guy with a subjective opinion.
@@elijiahburgess5506 As D&C states, "keys and authority" only remain when the people/person is righteous. It is a great fallacy that "keys and authority" pass simply through hands on heads. Were that that case, then King Noah would have had all the authority necessary to carry forth the work among his people, yet he was a wicked man. Alma was given authority from God, not because he was a priest among wicked King Noah's court. FWIW, the "transfiguration event" of Brigham was a farce. Joseph did not trust Brigham. Samuel Smith was supposed to be the high priest of the church after JS and he was poisoned. I trust Jesus more than I trust men. Go and study 3 Nephi 16:10-11, when the gentile church rejects the fullness of the gospel, then Lord removes it and give it to the House of Israel upon this land. Those people being the see of Lehi or the Native Americans... some of them still having been given the authority in our day. But I believe it to be the pride of the LDS church that keeps them from understanding how that could happen.
I know several people, that have left the church, who tell everyone how happy they are. Happy people don't need to tell everyone how happy they are.
The Foolish Virgins happy? Umm. Nope. When they didn't get back to the door on time it did not end well.
Exactly . . .
To be fair, active members say the same thing to non members or inactive members.
But when they’re probably constantly attacked and told they’re miserable because they aren’t in the church, they probably do.
@@austinnajar’probably constantly’.
Making stuff up again?
Dang. They could be better off, but society and their family won't be. That hit hard. I love this insight. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
All that temporary happiness is so fragile and can disappear in an unfortunate moment. It always blows my mind how many people lie to themselves that “all is well” when your health can deteriorate, money can disappear, and we all die. Life is full of danger and problems. Telling yourself that you’re happy isn’t going to give you the same peace of mind a clean conscience and a connection to God and the Holy Spirit give you.
Depends on how you define happiness.. “wickedness never was happiness”
🎯
People sometimes misunderstand what the plan of happiness is. It maximizes joy both individually and collectively.
People naturally look towards the brightest light they can bear (i.e. when it first shows up it will draw their attention).
Both literally and spiritually this holds true. Put a screen in front of someone and they will be drawn to look at it as long as it is brighter than the ambient light. Darken it to the point that it is darker than the surroundings and they will easily ignore it.
If the light is painful for them to bear they will seek a lesser light which they can handle. This is the Plan of Happiness (happiness meaning pleasantly apt) alluded to in the Book of Mormon. It is the varying degrees of glory.
As people live in accordance to the dictates of their own conscience they are happiest. I think Satan would be even more angsty living in the celestial kingdom (and everyone else probably less happy).
"Nowadays we think of happiness as meaning merriment or pleasure. But that’s not what it meant during the Age of Enlightenment. The word “happy” is the adjectival form of the noun “hap,” which meant an event or a situation. This definition provided the basis for an assortment of “hap” words: mishap (a bad event), hapless (without any favorable events), and haphazard and happenstance (chance events). Thus, in its original form, the adjective “happy” referred to something that fit a particular event. A “happy thought” was one that was perfectly suited for the conversation; a “happy garment” was one that was appropriate for a social event. Scottish Enlightenment philosopher David Hume spoke of a “happy theory” because it kept fitting new data; Hume also penned a line that could serve as the dark horse motto: “He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper.”"
"Dark Horse: Achieving Success Through the Pursuit of Fulfillment" by Todd Rose, Ogi Ogas -
The world’s happiness will end eventually. The happiness you’ll find in the church is Eternal.
That's exactly what it is. Yes people can be happy outside of the gospel but it's only temporary. It isn't true joy and everlasting like what the gospel of christ offers.
Sure, but you're putting your faith in something that may not be real. That's good for you and you have the right to believe what you do. But the belief that this world is all we have, and that you are incorrect about what happens when we die, is just as valid of a belief as your own belief. What is absolutely real about your belief is what it does to you in this life. Meaning, the only life that is guaranteed is the life you're living right now and your belief system is dictating how you live that life today. The same can be said about those that believe something totally different from you. Nobody actually knows what happens when we die. They only have a belief about what happens.
@@brningman Agreed here. The culture of the church needs to be more accepting of those with differing views (regarding people who leave the church, and in general of course).
@@VICTOR7oh2By Gospel of Christ, do you mean the Church?
@@glazeandscumble the church is where his true gospel is and only there.
“Living for yourself” can be seen as the true definition of hell. (Dantes Inferno)
This concept is absolutely profound; living for something bigger than yourself and sacrificing for the greater good brings happiness. Thank you for being such upstanding men.
It’s kind of insulting to suggest that people outside of the church are only living for themselves. Are nonmembers incapable of living for something bigger? Of living for the common good? Of helping others? Your way of thinking is not the only one.
@jmut714 what is the common good? Who, other than God, defines good?
@@aliceduren6542 Who gets to decide what God said is good?
This verse sums it up for me best...
Matthew 16:25 (KJV):
“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”
And
Matthew 6:19-21 (KJV):
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
Wow, didn't expect to hear Art Hannemann mentioned in a Thoughtful Faith video. I worked at 7 Bros Laie when he came home from being a mission president. I remember every time that man entered the room I would be blasted with The Spirit. One of the kindest, most humble people I have ever interacted with.
Even the wicked will have a "their season"... but all seasons come to an end. That season may be 25 years or 2 minutes but nonetheless its theirs. Everyone on the earth will have their season. Even people who leave the church may find happiness for a season and that happiness may last for a significant period of time even until death. BUT....that happiness will end at death when they are confronted with the consequences of their actions. People who break their covenants, indulge in sinful behavior, mock spiritual things and turn and rend and fight against truth will one day come face to face with those actions and a measure of joy and happiness will be taken from them. I find it very interesting when people say they have left the church and exclaim a great happiness and yet you see them all over LDS sights never really leaving the church. If you are CONSTANTLY looking back at the church after declaring you have left I will never personally believe you are truly independently happy....
I left it was hard but I was super angry at the church for 7 years. Now that I’m over the anger phase I’ve been attending recently. Love the community and our willingness to do service. It takes less effort for me to do good for my fellow man participating in church. I know and love our culture and I feel at home with the saints so despite not having an I know testimony I believe the church provides great structure for developing one selves to discipleship, even as an agnostic I hope for the world to have more disciples of Christ.
Good for you my friend. Soon you will have a witness of the truth completely from Dad just because of your willingness to serve and your great heart. I am so glad that you came back so glad. I pray often in my heart for all people to return.
At times in our earthly existence, some of us want to "taste" the other unknown; earthly pleasures are nothing but fleeting moments of unrestricted pleasures.
@@mariewheeler5626 or maybe the earthly pleasures have zero to do with why many people leave the church... I don't drink or sleep around or use drugs or even swear. I just don't judge people for doing it now.
@@brningmanso why did you leave?
@@cubic-h6041 because I don't believe it's true. That's it. Still have some positive feelings about it, and family and friends who still believe, but I don't. I also don't believe it's universally good either. It can be good, but it teaches, and has taught, things that I believe are harmful.
" The baseless notion that we should "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us" is one of the most absurd lies in the universe" - Russell M. Nelson, Oct. general conference 2023
@@jwright-n1v well, I'm not going to debate the merits of that statement, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to suggest that anything happens to us when we die other than our body stops functioning and we are no more.
@@brningmanlol, there is a ton of evidence. The real question is what kind of evidence would you believe? Eye witnesses? Data from medical providers? Would you even trust your own experience? It’s all out there, you just need to look.
@@cubic-h6041 you provided zero evidence in your answer. What evidence is there to tell us what happens after we're dead other than what we can observe?
@@brningman I didn’t provide the evidence because you probably wouldn’t believe it anyway as you never answered my question as to what kind of evidence you would accept. Answer that first, and then I will provide evidence.
@@cubic-h6041 well, I just said there's nothing observable. If we could test it somehow that would be nice. If people came back in spirit form and talked to us. If angels visited us. If there was ANYTHING that pointed to people still being alive that doesn't require subjective experiences. It needs to be a part of objective reality, not just a feeling.
I learned from a missionary companion that damnation is blocking eternal progress the same way that a physical dam blocks the pprogress of a river.
This is a great topic! I left the church when I was 18 and immediately I felt like a burden was lifted. I was now free to party and do what I wanted. But 9 years later I hit rock bottom and found myself humbly returning to church. I knew without a doubt that my failure was due to lack of obedience to Gods commandments. I used to wonder why it seemed like other people would have success after leaving the church but I didn't. It felt like I was held to a higher standard. Which is a good thing 😅. But it just seems like some people could get away with it while I couldn't.
Honestly you have to define what the word HAPPY means. If instant gratification or living for the moment is your goal then many people seem happy on the surface. The question you have to ask with sincerity, "Are they truly happy or is it an illusion?" Many people portray an image when in public, but are very unhappy in real life. I would rather struggle through life knowing I have joy in Christ, than live one single day in what the world believes happiness is. Happiness in the world is fleeting, but true happiness is in Christ. The world is in turmoil and chaos, but I have faith in Christ. There lies true joy and happiness. A smile, a hug, a kind word, a helping hand, genuine laughter from pure joy, reading the scriptures, partaking of the sacrament, being in the temple, spending quiet time with God, spending time with family, and going to bed at night knowing God loves you is true happiness. Life is fleeting!!
You're right that it is good to live for something that is bigger than you in the service of your family and community. However, this video reflects personal biases. When you believe the church is true, it's much easier to stay even if you are suffering because you think it is for a higher purpose. The difference between the man who chose to take care of his wife and a person choosing to stay in the church is that the man's wife is a physical person in his life Now that he really loves, the church is an institution and the purpose is only for an intangible afterlife. Even now I know that there is no way you as believing members could understand and that is because you've never had to experience how earth-shaking it is to go through a faith deconstruction. In those moments you realize that things you thought were unchanging and set in stone actually aren't. I guess one benefit to experiencing that is having the ability to see both from the perspective of a believing member and a non-believing person. Once you understand that, you can start to allow room for people to believe what they believe without viewing them in a negative light. Regardless of religion, its more beneficial for all people to pursue ethical principles based on kindness, service, love, and doing good towards others instead of requiring that people have to subscribe to your same beliefs about the truthfulness of a church and its doctrines.
Your guest is right on point. Excellent examples.
Happiness is so relative and often fleeting. This life is about so much more.
I love this idea of removing the limits on true joy and happiness. Thanks for this interview, guys. ❤
It's Telestial happiness! I lived here for so long. There is something sooo much better spiritually when you give yourself to a higher law. And I have so much confidence that my spiritual happiness now will last beyond this life.
There’s TONS of happiness out there. The Gospel helps you find happiness that’s independent, universal, memetic, and sustainable. And that’s what makes the Gospel approach unique and important
Yes you can find happiness outside of the church but it is only temporary happiness I know this I left the church when I was 18 years old and I got re-baptized July 6th 2024 and I am 68 years old would I perceive to be the rules are the key to freedom and happiness
@@kealohajohnson2691 what kind of freedom are you referring to? I kind of understand the church definition, but, as someone who wasn't in the church for so long, what is your definition of the freedom the gospel provides?
@@brningmanI would consider for example, obeying the commandments of God, freedom. The world's attitude is 'anything goes'. Sounds good on paper, but the reality is, there are consequences to every choice. Some are eternal consequences. Many people find spiritual safety in the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it steers them in the right direction.
@@jwright-n1v I swear your answer comes straight from a church manual for the youth. I probably heard that same thing a million times in Sunday school. The gospel steers people in a specific direction. Whether it's the right direction is subjective. There are very clear ways that it can be beneficial and other ways in which it's less beneficial.
@@brningmanliving the law of chastity has given me (and my wife) freedom. Freedom from STDs, from having to deal with the emotions from multiple sexual partners, from comparing partners, from having hard feelings about “my ex” and freedom from doubt knowing that all my kids are my own. The peace and loyalty cannot be bought. And that’s just one commandment. The church leads people in the RIGHT direction.
Living for happiness is a fool’s errand, no matter whether someone thinks it’s eternal. All happiness is fleeting, as much as pain, or sorrow. These things are situational because they are emotions.
God isn’t happy all the time. Heaven isn’t happy all the time; That’s a children’s fiction. He weeps and feels anger like any person.
Live for principles and for ideals, and you can’t be disappointed or shaken because you are fixed on a sure foundation.
Thank you
You nailed it
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." So if your going to go, just leave it alone and go.
This is a great question, but it's difficult for anyone who hasn’t left the church to answer honestly, as they may not fully understand the perspective of those who have. It's entirely possible to leave the church and still uphold values like not littering, caring for family, loving others, serving the community, maintaining a relationship with Christ, and being genuinely happy. These comparisons are not truly equivalent. Active members who follow the 'covenant path' may struggle to relate to former members who find greater happiness outside the church. The challenge is that many fully immersed in the Church believe theirs is the only path to eternal happiness, which is narrow-minded and short sighted. It reminds me of that joke where, after people pass on, God gives them a tour of heaven. They pass a room with a closed door, and when the new arrival asks why, God responds, 'That room is full of Mormons-they think they’re the only ones here.'
You should watch their whole interview. They clarify that part.
"Good, better, best." Elder oaks. God wants us to seek the best form of happiness, not just good or better happiness. That is way we are to seek exaltation, even the lower kingdoms of glory are still more glorious than mortal life, but God wants us to have the best.
Yes, the Celestial Order is the ultimate goal and the highest in us.
Pity it's nearly impossible to reach on your own like why should I be forced to be with another when I'm content by myself let me labor for greatness by myself then waste my time with another and lose it all
I do often see people that leave the church and are happier after they leave, and I think that often it's genuine.
We often are stressed and unhappy when we are making a tough decision, and usually facing a lot of cognitive dissonance. Resolving that conflict in our mind - whichever direction we go - will bring a significant amount of relief. Just like when you were in high school, and you had huge assignment due the next day and you are up late worrying about it, then finally you reach the moment of peace and relief when you "accept" that you just won't have it done on time. You feel happy, relieved, and suddenly you have more time. You'll have a lower grade for turning it in late, but you've accepted that fate already and you're happier with the lower outcome than you were struggling to reach a standard you didn't feel you could meet anyway.
When people leave the church they often find relief and happiness, but so do people who let go of their sins and their pride and repent and turn to the Lord. Either way will find a resolution to the current state of misery. And often people may go years being unhappy, struggling in the state of indecision and unwillingness to let go of their pride and submit themselves to the Lord. So whether they humble themselves or they reject their old paradigm, they will find more happiness than they had during their time of indecision.
It's also very easy to be "happy" for any snapshot in time. As you stretch your time horizon out further and further, it becomes more difficult to sustain happiness unless you are doing things Christ's way.
This lends words to something I have been thinking about a lot. Thanks.
"I" agree with this video; I've got a lot of thoughts on this subject. I have good friends, and my spouse, who have left the church and they're happier. It's not a bad thing! I think church culture has made it "heart breaking" for when people leave. Sure, per our belief, it is, BUT we can't ignore agency, Article of Faith 11, and the fact that per our theology, there are kingdoms of glory for everyone. We literally preach 'you will go where you are most happy.' That's an incredibly loving gift from God.
I'll also mention, I think church culture is often too close-minded. 1) The Lord is merciful, and of course will not be mocked. 2) Life is about progressing "from glory to glory". 3) Are people forgetting about the millennium??? Jesus will physically be here for 1,000 years. That's a LONG TIME! We'll all still have our agency, and 'both sides of the veil' will still be preached to. Frankly, I think for those who left the church, seeing prophecies fulfilled right in front of them and Jesus using the Temples we've built, uhhhh, I think that may be convincing for a lot of people and that's ok! John 20:29 with Jesus speaking to "doubting" Thomas.
I'm not trying to preach a soothing doctrine that we don't have to repent right now, but we control ourselves and not others. We can't be forceful, so at the very least, we should hope and help all people turn to Christ. The last thing we should do is push people away, ruin friendships or family bonds, or cut ties. It's easy to have that perception given we do "sealings" for eternity. I feel like we as a people need to let things play out sometimes. Tons of examples of people leaving the church and come right on back and are better through that journey! Comeback Podcast showcases this. I'm really over society calling us a "cult" and a large part of that is because there's been instances where a son/daughter leave the church and the parents shun them. C'mon people! We've got Heavenly Father creating children who end up being 'murderers' and mocking Him yet we still preach that He loves the sinner and is capable of forgiving them! We can't still include and love our family members or friends who've got an issue with polygamy?? How can we be so hypocritical for a church of people who's trying to be like the Savior? It's not like they're committing crimes!
The last shall be first, and the first shall be last. Let's help people on their 'journey' of mortality; faith crisis or not. I've always had this thought that the "weeping, mourning, and gnashing of teeth" may very well be us Latter Day Saints who see sinners enter into the Celestial Kingdom; those who lived a life of sin but truly did repent, enter in. I'm convinced that we've got to be so charitable and merciful ourselves to accept that the last shall be first and the first shall be last if we want what we preach being exaltation.
When you seek happiness now, you forget to think eternally.
I have yet to experience a ward full of truly happy members inside the Church as well. Most members I know are too busy and stressed "enduring", they forget to experience happiness in living.
Dumbest comment I’ve read…
I’m torn on this. I grew up in the church and I recognize how much it has shaped my life in a positive way and in a lot of ways, has kept me safe. On the flip side, when I fell into a deep faith/trust crisis about ten years ago, the church has also caused me so much pain and anguish over that time and I’ve had days where I wish I was never part of it. I’m still an active member but I live with a lot of cognitive dissonance, and that can be mentally and spiritually exhausting. Many people have been put into this situation and I hope things continue to improve.
In my opinion, the greatest things about the church (faith and community) aren't really unique to the church. I really like some of the beliefs. But others are still hard to grapple with. I lost my faith a few years ago when I allowed for the possibility that the church might not be true. Just reading the gospel topics essays is enough to cast doubt on the validity of things like revelation from prophets. But I like to say that while the church is great for some people, it's not great for all people. That was an eye-opening realization to me. You either conform to what the church expects of you or you struggle your whole life feeling like you're not good enough. At least, that's how it was for me. This is the only life that we're guaranteed. I decided that I didn't want to live my one guaranteed life in that way anymore, feeling constantly unworthy, and feeling like, as an example, gay people are somehow wrong for being the way they are. I also grew up with strong racist ideologies because of the church. I wasn't necessarily overtly racist, but certain beliefs that I had definitely were. It's embarrassing, honestly. But not everyone is me, and people very close to me still believe. I hope that you continue to find strength in your beliefs and that the cognitive dissonance diminishes over time.
How would you say that the church caused you pain and anguish during these last 10 years?
@@brningman Thank you for your kind comment, I really appreciate it. I used to be one that would see people leave and think, how could they ever walk away from this. Now I don’t blame people at all, I’ve studied a lot over the years and I try and help people work through doubts and struggles but at the end of the day, I never judge anyone for choosing their own path. You are right, it was the gospel topic essays and the Saints books that really led me down a spiral of doubt and confusion. I know enough to easily justify walking away but there is also enough to hold on to in my opinion, hence the cognitive dissonance:) I personally believe this is Christs church restored but that over a 200 year history, many false ideas and traditions have crept and some still exist today. It is embarrassing the way we’ve stood behind horrible ideas and have not always taken accountability or been forthright, I know that’s not the Lords way. I have hope for the future though.
@@LovelyMichelleScott I am not sure if you’ve ever been through a faith or trust crisis within the LDS church but bit can be incredibly painful. Over the past ten years, I’ve spent thousands of hours learning new things and trying to grapple with them and better understand them. It’s indisputable that the church whitewashes its history and that can be hard to cope with. History in many areas is messy and I’m okay with that, just be honest with me and own it when mistakes are made. In my opinion, we are still holding on to some horrible things today and blaming them on God, which I find disturbing. I love the church but they just can’t get out of their own way sometimes.
@@Commenter2121 I sincerely hope you continue to find strength in your beliefs and a welcoming community within the church. You seem open-minded and well aware of all the issues that exist, so I don't feel the need to say anything else. Life is hard and giving up your faith has the potential to make it even harder. Sending positive vibes your way, regardless of what path you continue down.
Great analogies !!
Great video! Thanks.
Thanks guys. I needed that today.
I find that there is a world of difference between happiness and joy, at least in the way we use the word “happiness” today. Joy is the kind of thing that you can still feel when things are extremely difficult, when you are deeply sorrowful, or when you are unsure about the future. Joy is like a buoy that lifts you up to ride atop the sea of life’s inevitable challenges. I have felt happiness outside of Jesus, but I have found joy only through covenant living. The difference, in my experience, could not be more stark.
I do wish we used the term 'joy' more than happiness. I've followed the Spirit at times in my life that lead to some really difficult and unpleasant circumstances that helped me grow. I wouldn't say I necessarily 'happier' during those difficult times. In fact they were extremely painful and full of grief and at times depression. But at the same time I did also have periods of relief, joy and hope that others don't get in quite the same way because it came from the Spirit. And going through these difficult times has helped me relate to others with more compassion.
Another thought is that this is the great plan of happiness. But part of that plan was to go through difficult emotions like sadness, grief and anger so that we could feel and further enjoy happiness, love and joy. Sometimes feeling those difficult emotions may be more of what we need as part of our development on earth.
This is so true. It made me tear up. I really don't think we, as members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, are living for easy, carefree, eternal happiness. Like Jacob said, we are living from something that is bigger than us. Even if it doesn't mean Heaven is all sunshine and rainbows. I think that true eternal happiness comes with tribulation, refining, learning, growing, stretching - for eternity. Our celestial eternity will not be the Heaven that most Christians think Heaven should be (comfort and ease). It is helping God with his purposes (to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all men). It wont be easy, but we will be happy as well help others experience happiness. Thoughts?
People that are truly happy - don’t need to tell everyone how happy they are…
I would also be happier if I slept in every day till 2, skipped work, dropped out of school, and spent my time eating and sleeping. But should I really? Would I really be better off? Would I progressing?
Without going into too much detail, I once watched someone do whatever they wanted, ALL DAY, for a full year! And, they were depressed and not happy. It didn't give them anything.
I'm wanting to push gently back on this... I don't think that you would be happy (or happier) if you lived this way... and for most people who have left the church, I don't think this is literally what they're doing, nor is it a helpful metaphor.
@@tarabates7088yeah, it's not helpful at all.
Of course you can. It's simple, really: those who remain faithful to the Lord's Church have different goals both for now and in the hereafter.
Loved this. So true. They may be happy for the first little while but over time their disconnection with God will start to leave them empty
Why do you assume that anyone leaving or outside the church is without god? The church is a tool, not a weapon.
@@trainwreck656 I don’t think everyone outside the church is without God. But if you are inside the church and you leave. You are choosing to leave God on a certain level. And depending on your choices could lose Him from your life h less you repent.
@@Sissysue22 my only point is that we must avoid insular attitudes and stereotypes. Some who have left the church evidently felt the church to be the best hope for a faith home and are so let down that they at least on a surface level abandon faith in God. Others feel that it is the Church that has lost the path and they worship in a different place or way. Others just want an excuse to abandon faith but I think they are the minority. Regardless, if we want to help, we can not be seen to be labeling people and putting them into a group. Everyone has their own challenges.
@@trainwreck656 it seems like you’re fear of offending other people impedes your judgement of understanding that there are consequences when you break your covenants. My original comment said nothing about never members. I’m talking about people who decide to leave the church. I know a lot of them and of the group that I know. None of them believe in God anymore, very few are practicing religion elsewhere.
Care only for oneself = telestial; care for others because it’s the right thing to do = terrestrial; care for others because you don’t know how to do anything else, pure love = celestial, most of the world is in the middle, church or not
Correction for the last part it's not cause you don't know how to do anything else it's because that is all you care to do.
God knows evil yet never acts upon it he only chooses to do good for that is all that matters to him regardless of what others think same with Jesus.
We saw how he cleaned the temple and healed people on the Sabbath day not because it was simply the right thing to do or that is all he knew it was because that is only mattered to him.
The opinions of others who did scorn him didn't matter all that mattered was doing good.
It's all about temporary happiness. Along the way, they will find out sooner or later that happiness outside living the gospel is not going to last forever! 😊
I hope for your sake you’re correct. It would be a shame if you dedicated your entire to life to something that requires you to sacrifice potential sources of happiness, only for there to be nothing after life. Meanwhile, I’m gonna live a life that not only makes me happy, but uplifts and helps my loved ones and fellow community members. I don’t want to waste any of it because it might be all we get.
@@jmut714 you should then define yourself as an atheist!
@@Celestian329 Why?
I think the best way to answer this question is to talk to people who left the church (much the same as Austin Fife) and then came back. Ask them the difference in their personal happiness between being out of the church and in the church. From what I've seen during interviews online, the majority of people are happier in the church. I also think it depends on what your measure of happiness is. Is it pleasure in the moment, or is it long-term contentment? The second is harder to measure because you need time to see the difference. The second one is what I see from most of the people who have come back. They discovered that the fleeting nature of worldly happiness isn't sustainable and actually leaves an emptiness once it no longer satisfies.
They should ask John dehlin if he is happier since he left the church
@@branten123 I've tried watching some of his videos, and I personally think he looks miserable. I don't know him personally, so I can't say that for sure. Do you know him personally? It is one thing to keep saying "I'm happier. I'm happier." But the more you have to say that, the less true it is because it starts to come across as an attempt to convince yourself and others that it's true when it isn't.
I think it's absolutely the case that happiness can be idolized. I personally don't like the approach many take in church of focusing on the church as a clinic. The gospel is not a pathology alone and Christ is not only a physician. The gospel is a gospel of laws and ordinances and making the moral appeals of duty and responsibility have always resonated more with me. The happiness approach is likely why John Dehlin views the atonement as a deficit model. He is in a sense on to something, but came to the wrong conclusion. We make the distinction between the fallen world and celestial world. We tend to think we live in a fallen world, but I think this might not be the best explanation. The world isn't bad, after all, Christ said to consider the lilies for they toil not. The rich man was asked to pick up his cross and follow Christ. The rich man was not asked to pick up another burden, but was asked to drop the burden of the fallen world and do as President Nelson says "Think Celestial". I think a lot of members feel caught in this process thinking they constantly fail, have to feel bad and repent. This is just the fallen world way of looking at things. It's a cultural thing, you act it out because you know other people do it because that's the way you're supposed to do it. When you truly get it, you walk the covenant path without a mind towards worldly thinking and happiness is a byproduct.
I feel like those who leave and say they are happier, weren't quite understanding or living the gospel correctly in the first place.
Let us remember the counsel from President Joseph F. Smith (1905). He pointed out that the Prophet Joseph believed that “a religion which has not the power to save people temporally and make them prosperous and happy here, cannot be depended upon to save them spiritually, to exalt them in the life to come” (“The Truth About Mormonism,” Out West: A Magazine of the Old Pacific and the New, Sept. 1905, 242.)
It's not about us. It's about those who benefit from our service.
The thing you guys compliantly “woosh” on:
“Things like honor and truth and beauty and goodness were more important than their very lives.”
This is exactly why I left. You think the church and its experience has a monopoly on this? Or that the church as a whole are even doing it well?
No. I left for honor. I left for truth. I left because the goodness in my family IS MORE IMPORTANT than my very life.
I know the feeling you’re promoting, i know how you feel being a member. I know you FEEL like you’re serving something greater than yourself. I know that feeling.
You’re making it seem like universally all those who leave do NOT have that.
I have that more than ever. Most all who have the courage to leave despite it being incredibly difficult also have that.
Do people leave to sin and have pleasure only lives? Sure.
But look around: you’d be crazy to say we’re even doing it “well” in the heart of Zion. We’re no closer to Enoch’s city than we were before Jospeh Smith.
We just have better suits, better confrence centers. The arrogance of this “perspective” being presented in this video is so anti-Christ it is laughable to say its from the Christ of the New Testament.
Well said. The thing that these guys can’t understand is how badly most of us wanted to STAY in the church.
But our INTEGRITY and Honor after learning about all the lies and deception, eventually demands that we leave to seek truth outside of the church. It can be so painful and lonely, and unless you’ve gone through a crisis of faith (crisis of truth actually ) you will never understand.
Cool, so which church do you go to to get inspired to act more Christ-like?
@@cubic-h6041 I see you've really broken down the fact that you might not need to go to a church to be Christlike. Crazy idea: be Christlike. Do you really think the plan was to be "inspired" by general conference to go out and love thy neighbor?
@@TheSandyStone crazy idea…we live in a community, not isolated. Jesus built a church.
@@cubic-h6041 crazy idea, we do live in communities. I didn't say "become a hermit" i said be Christlike. Christ started a church, when there is one that acts like him, I'll join! 😃
The purpose of the church existence is prepare people for the next life. Do we want to be exalted for eternity or do we want a shack in the telestial kingdom. Eternity is a long time. The world will give us some happiness but the time is always ticking away until that happiness expires.
I hear it all the time with friends that leave.
I don't begrudge former members their happiness outside of the Church. However, I have never once in my entire life met someone outside the Church with whom I would want to trade places.
I would add that it is an issue of what you value as a person. If you value the things of this world, then you probably would be happier outside of the Church. The genius of God's plan is that people inherit the degree of glory that they desire, be it celestial, terrestrial, or telestial.
you guys are so smart
Are they?? lol.
Here's the bitter truth... Their happiness is temporary. As preachy and self-righteous as that sounds, the people who leave the church and then say they are "happier for it," won't be happy in the long run. It may take years, it may take decades even..... But eventually, that decision to leave the church will come back and haunt them.
@@aljeffs418 yes, it is preachy and self-righteous. Thanks for pointing that out.
@@brningmanTruth hurts buddy. You’ll realize that someday. Contrary to what you believe…many things ARE BLACK AND WHITE. No. There’s no legitimate reason to leave the church (even when many members conclude that there theoretically could be). Sometimes, someone’s decision is simply wrong and doesn’t need to be overanalyzed, kinda like you do in all the comments you leave on Thoughtful Faith videos. Your decision to walk away from the church is wrong and it will come back to haunt you. You will not be happy in the long run unless you return and start living the principles again. Sorry, not sorry.
@@aljeffs418 I know you're not sorry. Your self-righteousness is off the charts. The issue is that when someone dies that's it. We have no idea what happens at that point. It's your right to be confident. But you're not right and I'm not wrong. That's the issue with faith: it's not based on what you can see or touch. Beliefs based on faith are unprovable. They are strong opinions, that's it.
@@brningmanSo you've implemented the philosophy of Korihor as the foundation for your life and beliefs. It's become pretty obvious why you leave such condescending and sad responses on every one of Thoughtful Faith's videos. It's people like you that make me grateful that my self-righteousness is off the charts. P.s ... you are still wrong. You are wrong for leaving the church.
@@aljeffs418 um, okay. My comments aren't any more condescending than yours. So good luck finding that moral high ground you think you speak from.
Amen 🙏
This all assumes the LDS church is the bastion of truth and beauty and generational happiness leading to Zion.
“I’ll go wherever you want me to go, Lord” has legitimately led many people out of the LDS church into something bigger than themselves.
Something to consider.
Happiness is relative to personal circumstances. Sometimes we cannot choose where or how we find happiness.
When most people who have left the Church use the phrase "I am happy!" they are typically talking about personal pleasure and convenience . . . The idea of living a selfless life or sacrificing for others (as the Savior taught) is not their central priority. They're about themselves and constantly taking their own temperature. Acting on their own and creating a God that conforms to their own logic and feelings is their gospel, and they do not want a God who is too inconvenient. They also like to constantly remind us who have stayed in the Church how happy they are.
Even though my heart goes out to those that leave and those that struggle to stay. I hope that they can find heaven through God’s plan, not through their own. And a scripture that comes to mind when people say that they are “happier” outside the church is when the Savior came to the Nephites and said in 3 Nephi 27:11
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
We can become happy outside the church, but it is an eternal happiness that we give up for a temporal one.
current happiness in the now is the only true barometer for alignment with god “You will not be restored to a different state”
you are precisely in the “kingdom” appropriate to your state in any given moment. Your body is pretty quick to let you know if you ate the wrong food, same with your spirit. It doesn’t take till the other life to find out where your going, your always precisely there.
I found personally that always writing off a sense of monotony or disgruntlement with, “well the rewards come in the next life, this ones the test” is like offloading your actual connection to the iron rod, which is an internal signal. Your barometer for alignment with god is actually so specific, that it cant fit into words or the pages of a book. Feelings are commandments, written ones are secondary.
I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I still go to church now because I am trying my best to CHANGE the bad behavior and false doctrine being taught there.
However, at what point do you say admit that your attempts at helping are seen as apostate behavior by leaders and you are no longer even welcome.
My leaders have actually told me to stop mentioning things like the family proclamation because it is too offensive.
When the apple gets so rotten, are you now just supporting something wicked? Are you just Alma deciding to stay with King Noah instead of leaving to build something better?
Jacob has even said he would leave if the church allowed temple sealing for LGBT. Well, we are actually getting pretty darn close right now.
Where is your ward ?
Yea I would like to know what ward and stake you are in as well...and if they are complaining to you about sharing the Proclamation of the Family I'm sure the Brethren would like to know that as well. And please provide proof we are getting close to allowing sealing the LGQT community!?...
I'm not going to tell you my ward. I'm not going to dox myself. What is wrong with you asking me to disclose personal info like that?
Suffice it to say, my stake is in the Midwest, in a very Conservative area. My ward is far more liberal than the general population here.
The PROOF is that we are moving closer and closer to it every year. Have you been living in a closet? They do photo ops with them doing temple tours. They allowed the gay men's choir sing at the temple. They are allowing openly trans people to be baptized.
Pay attention.
@@fightingfortruth9806 a general area would have sufficed.
Document the false teachings and discuss with stakeholders. It’s not unheard of having local leaders get off track. Doing so with tact and love goes a long way too.
I became more religious/spiritual after leaving the church. In fact, the BoM was a big factor in that. As D&C 84 states, the church is condemned for not following the commandments contained therein. As the church departed from the gospel, I had to leave the church to follow Christ and what He was teaching me. Am I happy? I'm actually heartbroken by what the leaders have done, but I do find solace in God's love.
The Church didn't leave, you just made it an excuse to do so.
@@hrv4908 We could go on down the list. Tithing changed. How authority or keys operated changed. How high priests are called changed. The law of common consent changed. The temple changed... again and again and again. Oh, and Joseph wasn't a polygamist and D&C 132 is a hacked revelation. The council of 50 disbanded. Blacks had the priesthood removed by Brigham. Then we could go into more modern times with all sorts of crazy stuff.
@@thereluctantwatchman Those are operational adjustments, not doctrinal. The Gospel remains the same. I love the excuses you anties come up with to try to justify your rebellion. Go on with the life you've chosen and enjoy where it takes you.
@@hrv4908 LOL... I love how nuanced you have to be to be a member today. "Anti" means anyone who doesn't agree with your flavor-of-the-day "living" leader. Joseph Smith would be considered "anti-Mormon" per the modern "doctrines." And yes, they are doctrines. The doctrine of "we can never lead you astray" is anti-Christian. Go read JST Mark 9 and tell me who the "eye" is and why the LDS leaders intentionally omitted the eye from their header description.
@thereluctantwatchman come back to church. You're living on false logic. Doctrine never changes, but commandments do.
Give your leaders the same grace and charity Christ gives you.
The thing is that while someone may think they are happy having a good time out on the lake in their boat, what about when the boat sinks and they lose a child? What will they have then? This life is only the tip of the iceberg. Life in the terrestrial kingdom might be full of pleasurable pursuits like boating and sports, hiking and football, but there will be no family life.
Joy is the opposite of despair. The gospel of Jesus Christ brings joy. When we experience the hardships of life we can still have joy because we still have the gospel of Jesus Christ to sustain us. Those without the gospel are more likely to experience despair when life gets hard.
Happiness is at the bottom of one of these bottles I swear!!! I just have to keep looking 😎
Most people can be happy outside of the Church because humans naturally follow the Golden Rule in order to mutually achieve happiness and pleasure. Where people will most likely suffer outside of the Church is at the level of forgiveness. Secular morality does not readily teach to be forgiving to your enemies or even those that just plain bother you. It also does not readily teach sobriety and moderation in all things. Without a mechanism (such as, say, the existence of a God that will ultimately judge you and give you either reward or punishment in the afterlife) for ensuring that people follow these norms and others, people will readily jettison them when convenient. It's these finer points where I think Latter-day Saints and Christians have the advantage over secularists.
I'm an active member, but I'm just going to be honest in saying that church makes me completely miserable every Sunday because I very rarely hear the true gospel being taught there anymore. Every Priesthood and Sunday School lesson is full of woke perspectives and commentary. Anyone who brings up more difficult things like the family proclamation or Alma 5 or (most of) Paul's teachings gets shot down and ridiculed in class.
So yeah, I'm not enjoying church anymore because of this. It's a lot of phony niceness and soft acceptance of evil behaviors.
You should consider exploring a strong biblical Christian church. I would find a good reformed church. If there is one near you, a church that is part of the PCA (Presbyterian Churches in America) would be a great start. A lot of non-denominational and Southern Baptist churches are strong but will be more modern styles of worship which may not suit you. If you can find an SBC church that is more traditional that would be really good though.
If you’re interested in help finding a good church to plug in to, let me know and I can do some research of churches in your area and recommend a few.
I feel you on this. So many members are just social members and take their doctrine and history spoon fed to them on Sundays but don’t put in the work to truly learn the gospel. It can be difficult when you feel the need for more and you feel like you aren’t getting it at church.
It is not the church that gives you or anyone else happiness. Happiness and joy comes by coming unto Christ, repenting of your sins, desiring goodness in your heart, living the higher law that Christ taught and living the law of love. Who cares what’s being taught in church or not, anyone who lives by these principles will live after the manner of happiness.
Speak to your Bishop. Make sure you are studying alone, and then add to the class what you can. Eventually, your ward will come around.
I have spoken to my bishop. I served as the ward clerk years ago, and one Sunday after we had left bishopric counsel, he pulled me aside and literally said, "you need to keep your mouth shut" about speaking against homosexual behavior. It was extremely harsh.
I still feel like it's as easy as asking what would the Savior do? If you truly feel the Savior would have suggested that a wife leave a marriage in a extremely bad situation. If it's really that bad, then I guess that's the right choice. But the Savior frequently chose a hard path for the benefit of his brothers and sisters. And in many ways his happiness did not come until after he was crucified and rose from the dead. What manner of men ought we to be?
Some people will be "happier" because they have always felt as though the church held them back from doing "fun/happy" things of the world. These people are inclined to need the affirmation of the great and spacious building rather than God. God's affirmation is an intrinsic affirmation while the world offers an extrinsic value. Until they are aligned to God instead of the world, they will likely perceive their life without the church as being much more appealing. As the scriptures say, those who pursue their affirmation from the world will not be able to abide God's presence and would rather be separted from God.
Well doubt they were ever happy in the church either. People are happy not because they belong to the church but because they live in harmony with the principles of the gospel. If you stop living those principles in or out of church , it doesn’t really matter you wont find the joy you seek. There are happy people at church and there are miserable people at church😅
Jacob, you guys are so close. Why do you feel there needs to be a qualifier to this happiness if you’re not a member of the church? You hit the nail on the head, those who live the higher law and strive to live a life of love and charity will live after the manner of happiness. There is never a “but” attached to someone outside of the church who truly lives a Christ like life. I say this a a life long active member of the church. The scriptures are very clear on this, ANYONE who comes unto Christ and repents of their sins and desires righteousness in their heart and lives the higher laws that Christ taught at the sermon on the mount, will be blessed with true happiness and joy. You don’t have to be a member of the church to live in this manner.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can help you afford the kind of misery you're most comfortable with. 😊
Is there room for faith in this discussion? If I left at one point, but later returned choosing to stay, I attribute that to my faith as well as gifts received that I keep privately.
A belief in a higher power without God requires a significant degree of self-regulation and compassion uncommon in the natural man. Conscientiousness development and personal sacrifice is necessary for happiness outside the restored gospel. Strive with all your heart and mind!
Superficial and incomplete happiness. It's making your goal the terrestrial kingdom, rather than the celestial. We will get the level we strive for.
The church isn’t even about happiness, it’s a rock tumbler and we are the rocks getting polished.
After I left the church I got married and had three kids and raised seven foster kids over about 15 years.
I don't know many people who will even raise one foster kid. I'm an atheist and love my big unconventional family.
How many foster kids do you have Jacob?
That's incredible!! What a meaningful life you are leading! Thank you. It sounds like you are a blessing to your family and community ❤️
@@-tikla my dad is a smug LDS man like Jacob Hansen. He tells me I have inferior values because I left the church. I find it infuriating that members of the church believe they are superior to non members or have "true joy" or whatever they claim. There's nothing uniquely good or useful about Mormonism
What right does a person have in a secular world to “tell others what they should do?” Free speech and moral relativism. In our culture, “any” moral truth is tolerated and “celebrated.” If this is not honored by non-theists, you must remind them of their ultimate higher power: tolerance.
It would be a mistake to remain in the church because doing so makes you happy. If that is your reason for being in the church, then you are simply a mercenary that’s been hired for the cause of righteousness. As soon as something else comes along offering more happiness, then you’ll leave to go there, irrespective of whether doing so would be right or wrong.
The only meaningful thing is to do what is right, and righteousness can only be proven by punishing it. If people are rewarded for righteousness every time, then how do we know they are righteous because it is right or because it’s convenient?
If doing the right thing leads to pain, then we can actually prove we are righteous because it is right and not because we are rewarded or because it was easier.
We ought to expect suffering and pain to come in greater abundance in the church than if we remain outside of the church.
Spiritual rewards will always accompany righteousness, however, we must be willing to do what is right without expectation of reward to develop true virtue.
Outstanding echo chamber presentation. Great job justifying and pushing the narrative.
You can find deep fulfillment and joy, outside of the Mormon church. Experiencing world religions, and finding deep and abiding truth is a good thing outside of the LDS church. As a woman, the Mormon church offers literally nothing, and being a 3rd class citizen is appalling and unhelpful, and I found it extremely damaging. I would never go back, as my religion that I've reverted to (before my parents converted) I find much better, and spiritually nourishing. It's simply not true that everyone who leaves, just wants to have fun and sin.
7:00 this argument also validates predation imo. it also means you should have something to kill for. Life should serve a higher goal, should be sacrificed toward something, not just your own, but those lives of others, by individuals with the ability to channel the will. I believe thats what men like JS/BY did when they started this church. They definitely had some machiavellian traits (read devils gate) had they not, this church would have never gotten off the ground to begin with, we should accept them for their more nietzschean side present in the records we hold of their literal actions as well to get a full picture of them, not just what they spoke openly in conference halls. Mormonism is a product of its actions, even more so than its doctrine.
When my grandfather who owned all of ogden entrusted its care to brigham young while he went on his mission, brigham young used the opportunity to take everything he owned and sign it under the name of the church. needless to say, he left the church with nothing but to have lost the family inheritance to brigham young and his lion house.
Kinda brutal, but thats nature, had our founding leaders not been the machiavellians their actions prove them to be, we would never have the church we know today. It is an integral part of the mormon recipe that anti mo’s condemn and tbm’s deny. Why not revere them for it?
Were the people in the great and spacious building happy? They certainly acted happy. I think if we asked them they would say they were happy. But…
We all know how that story ends. It ended badly. It ended with a great crash. The kind of happiness they were experiencing was transitory and fleeting. It was unsustainable. It was without a lasting foundation.
All who seek happiness outside the gospel will eventually experience the same unfortunate end, no matter what they may say in the moment.
Good points. We don’t have all answers. But I do see people much lighter and happier after. Leaving ?😊
A crass but great comment by a recent convert who worked in black ops military operations all over the world. He said "ive drunk every kind of alcoholic product and injected, snorted, smoked or eaten every kind of drug, i've partied and banged women of every kind all across the world, but nothing, i mean nothing, ive ever done even compares to the peace and happiness I feel from experiencing the atonement of Christ and joining his Church"
Ironic thing is…
The Savior was “a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief”
I guess all those who leave the church and have more “happiness” have it right…🙄
Happiness happens when you realize you dont have to live your life motivated by fear obligation or guilt
They are happy because they want to get tattoos, drink coffee and alcohol, wear tank tops and cuss. And this is not me stereotyping. I literally see this in almost every ex member of the church I come across of.
You can ask anyone what makes someone happy then ask how long will that thing will last or what would happen if that was gone tomorrow. Most things to live for have a hard time passing the test of what are you living for and what is the evidence what you are living for is reliable besides Jesus Christ.
Terrestrial people living a celestial law will perhaps be less happy than they would be if they choose to live the law that matches who they are. Fortunately for those who can only live a lower law, there are kingdoms of glory for them. God forces nobody to go to hell or damnation. We get to choose where we live after we die and those with whom we will associate.
Where are you headed? I want to know so I can avoid it.
I know people who start drinking and doing drugs and are extremely happy for a season…..
yes, I have met many many many happy people outside LDS Church. Can you define "Happy" ?..... Did you think the Lord Jesus lived happy life while on Earth ?
"Man of sorrows, acquainted with grief"
Don’t knock terrestrial people, of course they would be happier living a terrestrial life. The fullness of the gospel and exaltation isn’t for everyone. For some reason people find these statements arrogant, it’s not it’s just an acknowledgement of Christ’s many mansions.
The irony of your comment is that those teaching you quoted came from the same apostles and prophets who instituted polygamy, taught Adam God theory, banned black members from priesthood and temple ordinances and that we would govern our own worlds and blood atonement.
All of which have been changed or denounced by subsequent leaders.
Believing what leaders teach does not mean it is true.
If those scriptures give you room to judge others and they tell you you are somehow better than others then go ahead and cherish them. I personally think that is sad.
@@ericredd5590 What percentage of Church teachings has been denounced? Picking and choosing a small number of things leaders got wrong doesn't mean much. Leaders are fallible - everyone knows that.
@@Mr-Thou what percentage do you feel you can rely on that you think will never change?
As a youth did you think 1% or 5%.
I had a testimony that prophets spoke the mind and will of God. You and many other have told me that is not the case.
Based on that and many other observations. I choose not to look to them as a reliable source to understand God.
@@ericredd5590 My understanding of God as a youth is not a great way to judge reality.
As a rule of thumb, I do what Nephi did in 1 Nephi 2 - when the prophet tells me I need to do something, I pray to know of myself if it's true. I understand the prophet has the authority to lead the Church and perform ordinances, but he's just as human as I am. That authority gives him an edge, though.
I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm pretty sure they're more reliable than you and I. When your great-grandkids read your opinions on the Internet, I suspect they're going to find them less appealing than Russell M. Nelson's.
@@Mr-Thou how do you know they are reliable when, historically, they've been shown to give bad instructions? There were people who denounced church policies way before the prophets did and they lost their membership even though they were correct in their assessments. Praying is a great way to try to find guidance from God. Unfortunately, lots of prayers still kept the policy regarding black members of the church in place for 126 years. Can prayers even be trusted? And are you allowed to NOT follow the prophet? I guess you're allowed to as long as you don't talk about it. But the church will still follow what the prophet says, even if you disagree. So what happens then? Or are you confident that won't ever happen?
Why do you judge life’s struggles. Caring for those with needs, addiction, and any illnesses is life.
People who worship other gods while in the church will not be happy in the church
I have never ever been treated worse then by the church. I am a 64 year old life long member. Widow of 34 years. My girls were abused by a bishopric member. He was protected and I was called a liar and lost my recommend. My high priest member stole my house. I was renting a home from my bishop and his wife, they told me to get out because they were tearing the house down. It was a lie. They rented it out from under me for more money. I became homeless. My bishop wouldn’t talk to me but sent the relief society pres over with the number to the women’s homeless shelter in Provo. I slept in my car for 3 months in the middle of winter. Such Christlike people.
That's not the church that's people there's a difference.
The story of the cross is not happiness.