As a country boy, the pub for me consists of a lot of wooden furniture, a lot of dogs, an open fire, shotguns propped in a corner, maybe horses tied up outside and tractors parked on the approach almost blocking the road. Oh and having to walk about bent over because the roof beams are so low. I once visited a pub in South Lincolnshire that was so antiquated it didn't have beer pumps, you asked the landlady for your beer of choice "three pints of Bateman's xxxb" for instance and she would scuttle off down into the cellar and return with a jug of beer, give you each a pint glass and pour it out for you. It had absolutely no food or music and the entertainment was wooden skittles. It was renowned for being a time warp and quite popular. It was literally a public house as in the building was her house with a bar in the front room, a cellar and begrudgingly two ground floor toilets. Alas it died when she died.
Sounds great! ...and sorry to hear it is no longer in business. Reminds me a bit of the Cherry Tree in Tintern, which similarly didn't have any hand pumps, just a barrel or two down a flight of steps behind the bar. They only served one beer: Hancocks HB - which was always at best average whenever I had it anywhere else, but at the Cherry Tree it tasted incredible. I remember it as almost always being nearly empty in there. Tiny bar room with a bar billiards table in one corner and a fireplace in the other. Sadly now closed and converted to a private house.
For me the definition is: 1. A working Winchester rifle above the bar 2. Skittles, Shove Ha'Penny, Cribbage 3. Busty barmaids 4. Pork scratchings 5. Alcohol 6. One punter who is a permanent fixture who pretends to be an expert on every subject 7. Landlord's wife who flirts with everyone 8. Pub Quiz 9. Chess board that never gets used 10. Knows your beer by the second visit. You'll notice that a place like Wetherspoons fails every category apart from number 5, and even that one is debatable.
Another lovely entertaining and educational video. I have to admit that I burst into laughter when I saw your “Gastropub nightmare” meter! You should it with all your reviews. I look forward to the day you share your list of faves with us all. As always, a wonderful video, it went well with my morning coffee! Thank you…CHEERS!!!🍻
Thanks Ed! The gastropub-o-meter was a last minute addition while I was editing the video, I was struggling a bit to strike the right balance. I had never been to the Eagle before, and didn't know what to expect - I almost hoped for the sake of the video I would show up and ask if it was ok to just have a drink and I'd be rudely turned away, then I could have launched into a big rant about how gastropubs are ruining pubs etc etc... but the reality was the lady behind the bar was very polite and welcoming, and it would have felt very churlish to then sit outside the place being critical. Hopefully if nothing else that shows there's a lot of grey area here and it's hard to pin these definitions down!
Really enjoyable videos. I’ve been in the Seven Stars and that’s certainly my kind of boozer. For me it’s about character, friendly vibes and decent booze. My local is only 14 years old, but it’s in a building that’s probably at least late Victorian and the pub feels like it’s been there all that time. Equally I was in a taproom in Bristol a couple of weeks ago. It’s only a couple of years old, not what you’d call a pub, but somehow due to the criteria I’ve highlighted above, I would most certainly call it a pub. I was made to feel very welcome, it had a quirky interior, friendly had regulars and the beer was excellent. Keep up the good work. 🙂👍🍻
The Harp is a great pub. The Seven Stars is an awesome pub, great atmosphere and the food rocks. Great episode and topic Sir Tweedy. You showed Gordon’s in the intro, I might even consider it a pub. It is a great experience.
Hi Tweedy. I think your friends answer ….. “ you know when you are in one” ….. is the definitive answer. A bar which pretends to be a pub doesn’t have the atmosphere of a pub. Likewise a former pub that has been gastrofied no longer has the atmosphere of a pub. I would though add to your friends answer that to be a “real pub” the “atmospheric pub” MUST serve cask ale. 👍🍺 An excellent edition sir, very thought provoking. Keep up the good work and 10k subscribers beckon. 👏👏👍😀🍺🥖🧀🧅
Thanks Andrew! Yes initially "you know when you're in one" sounded like a lazy cop out but the more I think about it the more I find it hard to better. I agree about the importance of cask ale but I have occasionally still experienced that sense of "pub magic" even in pubs without it. I could be wrong but I get the sense many pubs in Ireland, for example, only have keg taps... and although I've only really explored Dublin to date, I did find a couple of gems there. Plus of course Sam Smith's pubs here - often beautiful interiors, have at most one hand pump (Old Brewery Bitter), and increasingly many of the London locations seem to only have keg taps.
@@TweedyPubs I guess I am showing my age having experienced the near death knell of cask beer in the 1970’s and the importance of the fledgling CAMRA. In West London, where I was brought up, it became a real hunt to find pubs with cask ale. Yes, there were plenty of pubs with keg which had the atmosphere of a proper pub. Yet to me, a pub without cask remains a pub which has lost its appeal, the one ingredient you enter a pub for, proper, real ale. To my shame I’ve yet to visit Ireland. I guess I can forgive them for serving keg given that they will offer stout as opposed to citrusy keg. 👍😀🍺
What a challenging question and I tend to agree with your friend. You just know. I’ve tried to think about pubs I knew that were definitely pubs, then closed and reopened, and were no longer pubs. Thinking about such examples I’ve known, the “refurbished” pub has typically seen all the creaky corners swept away, and yet paradoxically, they then try to create some sense of antiquity. Rather than the evolved sense of cosy chaos, it becomes like something you’d find in Disney World. For me, a pub is not a designed space. It’s something that has grown into whatever building it finds itself in, or, it was designed as a pub a long time ago, and has slowly adapted over the subsequent decades. The exceptions to this are the examples you’ve shown a few times, where a pub has been established in an old building in recent decades, but that has been done without the building being gutted. I probably need to give this more thought and this is certainly a thought provoking question, excellently presented here. I don’t blame you for not going in All Bar One!
Thank you Mr WC21! "Refurbished" is a word which has started to take on almost terrifying dimensions for me now. It's practically never good, is it? I think you're right, you can't just create a pub overnight. That hard-to-define atmosphere includes the echoes of all those who have made merry in that space before. Every visitor makes a small contribution to that patina. This video is certainly no Ploughman's Lunch-esque blockbuster but I'm glad I made it. When I tell people I make videos about pubs I quickly qualify it by saying that I'm only interested in pubs with a bit of history behind them. After making this video I've realised, in my opinion at least, if it doesn't have that bit of history it isn't really a pub!
@@TweedyPubs you are right - a terrifying word that almost inevitably means the removal of all charm! I liked the boat, but the fact it’s a boat makes it a bar to me. I can’t really explain why!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd As another commenter said, pub is of course short for "public house" and a boat is not a house! Errr.... apart from those house boats.
Good morning, Tweedy A question indeed : What is a Pub ? I think you could ask 100 people that and get 100 different answers. I know many younger people have a much different idea of what a pub is compared to my own. I personally like a "basic no frills" pub that looks "lived in" and keeps good "traditional" daught beers (not all citrusy !!) and offers simple "pubby" snacks and basic simple meals. I am not a fan of overly decorated / redesigned pubs, pubs with loud music, or intrusive TVs, and definitely, like yourself, not gastropubs !!! A pub is something different to all of us. Your friend was very much on the mark with the observation that "you know when you are in one." This is very true, and I know exactly what he meant - I sometimes can not pinpoint a reason when I go into a new pub, but I just know it feels right 😁👍 Have a great day.
Very interesting, thank you. As a foreigner, I sometimes wonder if it's still relevant what the sign on the door says. Is there a difference between a tavern, an inn, a saloon bar and so on, or is it just of historical interest?
Thanks Martin! I think the original meanings have been lost and many of these terms are used interchangeably now! At some point in history a tavern would have been a more upmarket pub, likely specialising in wine rather than beer. Whereas at a similar point in history the alehouse would have been your more basic beer focused pub. An inn would have offered accommodation as well as functioning as a pub. A saloon bar would have been part of a pub rather than a whole pub (the part made to appeal to slightly more upmarket clientele) - but yes I have seen whole establishments described as a saloon bar as well, which I assume it an attempt to make a place seem a bit posher...
What is a Pub to you?! For me, a pub is a place without playing music, having any sort of entertainment like TVs, no Farrow and Ball paint kinda Gastro Establishment. For me a pub is a place where they have a good selection of ale, rustic interior and a local community. For example like the Southampton arms. Great Video with a lot of information and food for thoughts. As usual Tweedy, keep up the good work. What a lovely content and channel.
When I worked at the MOD we used that boat, the Tattershall Castle, after work a lot because it's just across the road from the Main Building. It was nicknamed the Belgrano.
i grew up in the 90s so by the time of the smoking ban in 2007, and the shift towards every pub offering some kind of food i wasn’t even old enough to legally drink in pubs nonetheless, i kind of miss when pubs smelled of stale beer and cigarette smoke, rather than smelling of chips and vinegar. i definitely prefer a pub to be a drinks only venue, no music, no kids, no food, but i appreciate most have to offer food and became more family friendly out of financial necessity. it feels like a rarity to find an old school ‘wet led’ pub these days
Another excellent video, informative as ever but this one almost delving into the psyche of the pubgoer and the bar flitter thoroughly enjoyed it and a fabulous quote for us all. "You know when you are in one”. Quality content and yet again thank you.
What a great channel. Subscribed. I'm not even interested in pubs, per se, but this brings the whole idea of pub culture alive. I'd be interested in your response to the novels of Patrick Hamilton, who was the true poet of London pubs in the 1940s and 1950s...
That was something a bit different, enjoyed it, some good research undertaken. I must make a point of visiting the Holy Tavern, next time I'm in London.
Aaaah! The pub!! Isn’t it great that there are pubs for all tastes. For me, when I walk into a pub my spirit lifts!! It depends what’s in your soul I believe. As your mate said, “you’ll know when you’re in one “ I go to a pub every day and have done since I was 17! (68 now 🤦♂️) I love beer but I love pubs more!!! Can I recommend a film/documentary to you and all your viewers, The Irish pub. Currently back on UA-cam. To me, they are proper pubs, and the type that I like. But I go in all sorts, town pubs, country pubs all sorts. Nothing like them!❤ As always, keep up the good work mate! I hope our paths cross someday 🍺🍺🍺cheers!
Thanks for recommending the film "The Irish Pub". Very sensitively made and brilliant camera work. (The comment section of this channel starts to feel a little pubby - you know)
I like the way you phrase your conclusion, definitions can be hard to articulate but still very meaningful. I’m reminded of something an American judge said, on the subject of defining obscenity: “I could never intelligibly do so, but I know it when I see it.” Regardless, excellent video.
Today I learned we have very very few pubs in America. I need to visit England, sigh. I'm obsessed with Cask ale. And thanks for defining what a Gastro-pub is, we don't really use that term in my area.
Very interesting topic. A friend of mine and I are trying to plan a tour of all the pubs in our town (Skipton in North Yorkshire) - and we are trying to decide what actually constitutes a 'pub'. We definitely need to come up with a definition.
A wonderful thought provoking video. We all think we know a pub is when we walk into or past one but the definitions cause some reconsideration. Love your channel, cheers!
Great video, Tweedy. Really informative analysis. It's complicated! I think it should appear on one of those American reaction videos, as the poor dears struggle with the concept. I was so pleased to see an appearance of Brolly. Made my day. 👍
Thanks Peter! Whilst* I'm often first in line to gently poke fun at our cousins across the pond I think it would be fair to say that even here in the UK we can't quite pin down a lot of these definitions! Always delighted to hear people like spotting the brolly - on this occasion it turned out to be unnecessary despite the forecasts - so hard to predict the weather recently! * As an aside, I believe the word "whilst" doesn't really exist in American English.
Delightful video John!! Even better are the amount of views in such a small time since upload (1,300 and climbing fast!) The Holy Tavern was my personal favourite. I had never heard of Roxy Beaujolais until now but what a fantastic name?!! I’m guessing she married a guy from Essex called Mickey Shiraz? 😊
That was fascinating. It would be interesting to see your views on micropubs. I find that they often embody many of the qualities that Orwell looked for better than many more conventional pubs.
Thank you! I would love to do a video on micropubs - there aren't really any in (central) London but I hope to have more time to get out of town this summer. I think Kent might be a good place to head for...?
I shall look forward to that. Kent is such an interesting county, but I'm afraid I don't know its micropubs. I have yet to find a bad micropub - they are never what I would refer to as 'gastricisised'.
Thank you, Tweedy, for explaining the basics and illustrating them in a fun, charming way, as usual! As it seems, there are some "non-negotiables" for what constitutes a real, traditional pub, but then there's also room for unique traits, which makes it interesting.
Thanks Kathi, and I think you make a very good point there - the fact it is so hard to define what a pub is may actually be a strength, rather than a weakness - it allows for all sort of quirky / eccentric deviation!
Really interesting video Tweedy! It does seem to be a case of "you know it when you see it". I think changing CAMRA's requirement #2 from "draught beer of cider" to "cask beer or cider" would help better define the pub. Under the current definition, a lot of American (or American-style) "bars" could be classified as pubs...and they are not 😀. I realize that wouldn't be a perfect definition, but as an outsider from the states, I really associate the handpump with the pub! I'd also like CAMRA to add a 5th requirement--that an appropriate carpet must be present--but that's probably going too far 😆.
When I was working in the US I went into a bar in West Des Moines that had the attributes of a pub, including the traditional British sticky carpet which squelched when you walked across it😂 I actually prefer wooden floorboards.
@@Lemmi99 Yeah, I can see why pubs have been going away from the carpet--it must be impossible to keep clean. But it does have a nice traditional look.
Cheers Tweedy for tackling this subject. I've often wondered myself where the line is when trying to decide which establishment is a legit example of a pub or not. Also thanks for that explanation of the 3 draught scenarios and the difference between kegs and casks. Have you done a video tour of Clapham pubs? I was wondering about the Windmill on Clapham Common, to me it seems very well situated in the gastro camp or restaurant but it often gets pub of the year awards in that general area. Any thoughts?
For those of us who like pubs and beer a question like this, which seems so simple, can actually be quite hard to define. You may need to start with defining what is a bar and what is a pub and how the two differ. I think your friend has a point though, if the place you walk into isn't a full on restaurant which, I think is an obvious difference to a pub or a bar then it just sort of comes down to aesthetics and subjective taste or opinion which, is probably based on the atmosphere of the place. A place I've always found hard to define is The Euston Tap. I've always considered it a bar rather than a pub and I think that mainly comes down to the interior and atmosphere inside. However, others may not think twice than to call it a pub. What do you think Tweedy?
Thanks TKP - yes I agree it does have a lot to do with aesthetics. If I was asked the question about whether the Euston Tap was a bar or a pub I too would call it a bar... but I suspect if I go and re-watch the video on Euston / King's Cross / St. Pancras where I covered it, then I'm fairly sure I would have slipped at least once and referred to it as a pub.
I think having locals is a big part of it! As someone said elsewhere in the comments here, it's hard to imagine anyone calling a branch of All Bar One their local...
Love your videos, keep them coming. I'm more or less retired now but have chosen to work in pubs for the last few years because i love the proper traditional environment of pubs. Should pubs have music or not in this regard? My gaffer allows it where i work but not in others he owns. Personally i do like music, i like to get hold of the i player first thing before the youngsters get hold of it😂
Thank you! Personally my preference is always for quiet pubs, without any music, perhaps just the murmur of conversation, the chinking of glasses, maybe the crackle of the fire...? ...but I think music can work in some settings. As you allude to, it's a question of who is choosing the songs!
@@TweedyPubsI go to pubs to wind down, and for a bit of conversation. The music can be an annoyance but that depends on the volume at which it is set. I would prefer that an establishment played music than have TV screens up. The flickering images ruin the atmosphere.
I feel like I'm either old or just grumpy, but I prefer no TVs and no music. Sometimes I will turn and walk if the music is loud or there are 5 panel TVs flashing. I want to relax and enjoy the surroundings and voices. There are very few environments where we are not being hit over the head with screens or thumping music.
That was a fascinating cultural tour. To be fair to All Bar One they don't pretend to be anything else. I live in the countryside and I think that most pubs here tend to remain "pubs" because they have to attract the widest demographic to survive. Perhaps that is a criterion - you can walk into a real pub wearing anything from jeans to a DJ and no-one will care. Thank you
Thanks Chris! Perhaps I was slightly unfair on All Bar One, as you say, they absolutely aren't trying to cash in on the "Ye Olde Pubbe" trade - quite the opposite in fact... I was just trying to find an extreme example of somewhere that would fit that CAMRA definition but absolutely doesn't feel like a pub! Obviously the sort of pubs I like (woody interiors / real ale / one time watering holes of Samuel Pepys and Dr Johnson / etc etc) aren't everyone's cup of tea, and it's better for everyone involved to provide alternatives for that other crowd rather than force them to sit in a corner of my sort of pub being grumpy and miserable!
Number 4 in the definition given by CAMRA is key for me. Often when abroad you'll find places that call themselves "pubs" (very often "Irish" pubs), but one of the key elements that stops them feeling like a pub is table service. Service at the bar forces punters to interact with others and thus acts a social lubricant (in addition to the consumption of alcohol). If you sit at a table and are served there, then people are far less like to interact with strangers.
I agree Martin, ordering from the bar rather than at your table is a really vital part of creating the atmosphere. With table service you're then tied to that table. What if you change your mind half way through and want to sit somewhere else? Or want to wander around and inspect the pictures on the walls? How could busy city pubs with standing room only and people spilling out onto the pavement work with a table service model? Table service, as you say, also pretty much kills the likelihood of having a conversation with a stranger. It even makes it hard if you spot an old friend at another table and want to go join them or vice verse. I also really like the sense of freedom of being able to get up and walk out at any moment! With table service you've always got to settle up before you leave, and my experience of bars and cafes on the continent is that that can be maddeningly slow sometimes!
Hi John, I think for me it's the social element, going down to your local with your mates sometimes everyone's there sometimes not. Bumping in to old friends. Often they are the focus of the community, quiz night, darts, the football team. Your one, was it the hat competition?, was a good example. If it's not marked with a PH on an OS map then perhaps it doesn't qualify, Is it a question of licensing what was the difference to a beer house? Tastes change and pubs constantly evolve the worst is seeing them closed and converted to other uses, far too many in my old town Portsmouth. I quite like the Wetherspoons chains as they are a reliable place for a drink and somewhere to get something to eat. This week I pointed some work colleagues who were in the UK in the direction of The Sir Alec Rose in Port Solent, I was impressed they had chosen mushy peas I will find out next week if they tried the beer. I often find the Spanish don't like cask ale because it's not as cold as they like 😮😮 One thing I like about the pubs in the UK is that they are often imposing, interesting buildings with lots of stories to tell as you frequently regale us. I've not really found anything similar down here. Now, what would Keith Floyd say? A very thought provoking video, well done!!
Thanks David! It's interesting you mention the public house / beer house distinction (mostly a 19th century thing) as I get the sense it was actually the beer houses which would have felt more like "pubby pubs" to me. They were unlikely to serve any food and I don't think they would have had any airs and graces. They certainly wouldn't have served fancy cocktails!
My differentiation of a pub/tavern vs a bar is that a bar is a place where you go to drink, and perhaps conversation may ensue. A pub or tavern (I use them interchangeably) is where you go to talk & meet friends (perhaps new ones) and where the drinking merely aids the conversation. You may need quite a lot of assistance to your conversation, to be sure, but the focus is still on personal interaction rather than drinking.
Thank you - it was one of those happy accidents! I just happened to have done that bit of talking to camera with the London Eye behind me - it wasn't planned. When I came to editing it I thought it might be nice to put the CAMRA logo on screen during that bit, for a moment had it on the other side of the screen, but then the obvious location was staring me in the face!
@@TweedyPubs You should check out the Marisco Tavern on Lundy Island. Not a huge selection of beers but that would make for an incredible Tweedy adventure!
From the rumours on the grapevine, the Houses Of Parliament is a private members pub with many MPs and staffers sozzled until late at night. Would be great if an insider invited you to make a video of the bars inside Parliament.
A real essence of a true pub is a place where people can go for a few hours to escape from ‘“this mortal coil”. I find the best pub atmosphere is always at the end of the working day or week when people are free to enjoy drinking beer as a way of escaping the daily grind of work life. If ever you are in Sydney go to Australia square just after working hours on a Friday to experience the of exuberance of alcohol/freedom and of course no work tomorrow.
Interesting dissertation on this one Tweedy. I prefer a pub to be primarily for quaffing with perhaps a ham and cheese toasty on offer but not much more and a restaurant to be for dining without a large bar. Perhaps I'm a Luddite and this preference is harder to find these days, I don't quite understand the business model of gastropubs as the profit margin on food is minimal and drink sales is where the markup is highest. American bar science dictates that every seat of an establishment should generate X amount of revenue per year...I don't see how a gastropub does that efficiently.
Thanks Al! A thing I am perpetually confused about is when you talk to people in the pub trade they tell you they make all their money on food, and when you talk to people in the restaurant trade they tell you they make all their money on the drinks!
@@TweedyPubs Indeed, that is very quare although in the US the average profit on a pint of beer is near 65 percent and a cocktail profit comes in at 85 percent. I would have my doubts the profit on food is anywhere near that given all of the associated costs.
Slightly off topic. You visited the Eagle and the Seven Stars. Today I discovered listening to an In Our Time podcast that Elephant and Castle can refer to the inscription of an elephant and castle on gold coins minted using African gold. I suspect Eagle and Seven Stars also originate from coinage. The Eagle obviously referring to the eagle on an American gold coin that would have been used for Trans Atlantic trade. As for Seven Stars, there are several Roman coins from the 1st and 2nd century AD that have seven stars on their face. And pubs called The Antelope could refer to the antelope inscribed on the back of a South African gold Krugerrand. I believe pubs near ports often served a secondary purpose as banks for sailors. The pub would store the coins in their safety box and issue the sailor a paper letter of ownership. This could also be why pubs had snugs. So that business could be done in private, such as purchase of indentured servants, but in a place that both parties trusted. Over in Ireland it is common to find pubs inside hardware stores, pharmacies and funeral director parlours. I visited a pub in Dingle where you could buy a pint of stout and a pair of farmer's boots at the same time.
The derivation I've usually heard for this particular Seven Stars is that apparently some Dutch sailors had settled in the area, and it refers to the seven provinces of the Netherlands at that time... but I think that is partly conjecture, because there are some old references which some people attribute to the pub as "Leg and Seven Stars" which is believed to be a corruption of "League of Seven Stars". I think your suggestion is equally plausible! In a previous video I briefly covered the era in the 17th century when pubs were issuing their own tokens, because the government of the day couldn't (or wouldn't) manufacture enough small value coins to go around. Another potential link between pub (names) and coinage there.
Is recalcitrance a factor in the definition of a pub I wonder? I went into a pub here in Southend some years ago, (I won't give the name). I was off alcohol at the time so I asked for a coffee. "Don't do coffee" "Ok. I'll have a coke then. Can I pay by card?" "Don't take card". "Do you do sandwiches?" "No". I couldn't help a wry smile. I might add that I'd met the bloke behind the bar about twenty years previously in another pub in town and He was still wearing the same pinstripe suit. I say all this without rancour, as I share a traditionalist leaning myself. Someone needs to dig their heels in.
I think that definitely is a factor! There's something about a public house which is just as the name suggests - a house made open to the public, but in good pubs you do still get a sense you're being invited into the home of the landlord/landlady. Therefore you have to follow their rules and accept their hospitality on their terms!
New York City, the late, lamented Grassroots Tavern. A party of California, like, girls, y'know, came in and ordered a flurry of foo-foo drinks. The bartender, Eric (!), looked at the 'leader' and told her "Lady, this is an old-fashioned bar. Do you want your whiskey in your beer or next to it?" I never knew I could pass a beer through my nose! 🤣🤣🤣
@@bruceknights8330 This was a good few years ago and one of the pubs I mention has disappeared but used to be in Southend Victoria station. Not a bad pub actually, quite pleasant. I used to sit in there getting pissed as a fart before going to college classes. The one that didn't do coffee or take card was in Southchurch road and has had so many name changes I can't remember what the hell it was called at the time but I'm sure it's a very, very nice pub now!
@robertgraves8843 The Sutton. Bloody awful pub now reborn under a new name and much improved. The pub in Victoria Station was also pretty dire. The decent pubs were the Railway Hotel, the Cricketers, The Spread Eagle, and the Cork and Cheese. None were spectacular. You had to go to Leigh or Rochford to find better pubs. Southend is much better served these days.
Yes I tried to go into this one relatively open minded and hoping it might encourage discussion! I completely agree about atmosphere in particular - so important, but also so hard to define.
Having being raised in Ireland and lived in Britain, I had a very clear idea of what a real pub is like. Now retired in Canada I have to tolerate restaurants with bars that call themselves 'pubs'. Everyone is seated, it's more about food than drink, table service is mandatory (customers are not allowed to carry their drink from one area to another), you can only order one drink per person at once so forget the pint and accompanying large Scotch. The conversation dwindles once hunting and hockey have been dealt with, unlike in the poorest UK areas where evolution and the gold standard often crop up randomly. There is one decent pub though, The Crow and Gate at Naniamo BC. It was built by an English gentleman in the early 70s and the beamed ceilings and open fireplaces with leaded light windows would pass muster in any English town. Still table service though. To solve all these problems I built my own pub in the basement.
I have a question, if I may. What’s the origin (and, sometimes ongoing ‘tenancy’ arrangements) of City of London ‘pubs’ underground? eg. ‘The Red Lion’ Watling St (no longer there) or, ‘The Dandy Roll’ just round the corner (no longer there). ‘The Three Crowns’ just off Gresham St. too. I recall a few major changes of occupancy (above ground) & even the entire building itself in one case but, the pubs themselves stayed (for a while, at least).
When does a pub become an "Inn"? We stayed in Ambleside in the Lake District recently. Across the road was the Wateredge Inn. It qualifies as a pub, I think, on all the Camra criteria but has paying guests staying.
There needs to be a separate category for things that are clearly not pubs but not exactly restaurants. In the case of, say, Boston Tea Party, they close at 5pm or thereabouts, so it's a licensed cafe. Cafe Rouge is a cafe-restaurant with really odd opening hours (closes at 7.30 pm? Are you a restaurant or not, make your mind up!). AB1 opens normal pub hours but the website makes much of 'booking a table.' If you have to book it isn't a pub. On the other hand CAMRA allows 'pub' to describe places that to me are clearly music venues or nightclubs. My quick and dirty definition before watching the video was: A self-contained establishment (i.e. not a hotel* or sports club bar) that sells draught beer for consumption on site, doesn't require the purchase of food (i.e. not a restaurant), is generally open to the public without a charge (i.e. not a club). And I'll add two: doesn't require advanced booking and is open regular pub hours at least some days of the week. *this doesn't exclude pubs that also function as hotels.
What makes a pub is the people. The people behind the bar are very important. The people on the your side of the bar are equally important. A pub should serve beer. A pub should not serve food. A pub should not have background music. A pub should not have television sets. A pub should be a place where philosophers can meet and talk rubbish. A pub should be a second home. I have found such a place and I and my fellow old fogeys are happy there.
Consider following Orwell to Wigan and the pubs thereabouts. I cannot guarantee the quality of the establishments but I think it will make good content and the locals are "special".
Have you ever thought of taking groups of like minded folk on a tour of your favoured hostelries? Or does the stringent business of making a living get in the way?
I don't think I'd be very good as a real time tour guide! The good thing about making the videos is that I can pause filming and look things up on my phone, and then (hopefully) edit all the boring bits out after the fact. I also like the freedom of flying solo like this! Two of the pubs I visited when out making this video were spontaneous additions on the day, and other times I get a few pubs in and realise I'm not really in the mood and just give up and go home!
As I recall, the All Bar One concept was designed to attract the trade of the female post-work commuter who was put-off by the traditional male dominated city pub, and going home (perhaps to drink in suburbia) rather than meeting friends in the city for a drink, before travelling home Hence such feature such as large clear windows that made the interior visible from the street and the emphasis on the wine offering. Are they pubs? Well the clue is in the name……..
They're the sort of place you end up going to for work do's because the boring women don't want to go to a pub, they're too noisy, beery etc etc. I don't think any normal man would go into one of these places out of choice.
I enjoy your videos - maybe when utilizing the CAMRA definition of a pub, it's not so much "is it a pub?" BUT "is it a GOOD pub?" I do cringe a bit when I see the G word in a pub's description LOL!
Yes I think you're right - there are plenty of places which completely fit the criteria of being a pub... but that still doesn't necessarily mean you'd actually want to go there!
I think CAMRA’s definition is pretty good, though as you point out not 100%. Post Covid, many people go into pubs and ask if there’s a table free, but if pubs can fill their premises with diners why not? One issue is, that with so many seats ostensibly reserved for diners, the only place for drinkers is the bar. This, usually central location, allows a few determined drinkers to dominate the whole pub, I won’t repeat their limited vocabulary! That said, the 🇺🇸 bar is often much more reflective (think Cheers). Plus, no food (nuts), dogs or kids 😁
I’m thinking that pub fans often wonder if pubs exist in Germany, Czech Republic, etc. A Kneipe in Germany seems close. Many Kneipen are small boozers where you stand to order your draught beer. The places in Germany that call themselves “Irish pubs” are for tourists. They are bars that serve beer and wine along with food.
As a German, but not an expert I'd say though that Kneipen traditionally have been/still are a male domain (and that's fine, men need spaces for themselves), so they were not really intended to be "open to the general public", as pubs are. But there may be regional differences like the Altbier-/Kölsch-Kneipen in Düsseldorf and Cologne that attract a mixed crowd or village Kneipen which sometimes offer good food, so families go there on Sundays to have lunch.
I’d concur regarding Mr. Fogg’s Tavern that it’s not really a pub. I have had a few good Thursday nights in the place for the cockney signaling with Tom Carradine, still, not really a pub. The gin bar upstairs is also a fun time but the presence of a craft gin bar upstairs does nothing to help the argument that the place is a pub. Nor does the fact that Mr. Fogg’s is part of a chain of similarly themed establishments. So agreed…not a pub, but instead the manufactured facsimile of one.
Styles of pubs change over the years...id call that Tattershall Castle a pub, seems worthy of it..Harp is defo a pub...i struggle with ex shops pretending to be a pub where there's no atmosphere, just selling rubbish craft stuff...Save our Pubs John...thats what it is all about🍺👊👊
Thanks Dave! Atmosphere is a tricky one isn't it? You can't really manufacture a good pub atmosphere (although you certainly can manufacture a bad one!). As mentioned in another comment I'm keen to do an "investigation" into micropubs, hopefully at some point this summer, to find out whether newly created pubs like that can still feel "pubby".
What is a boat? I'd describe the former passenger ferry Tattershall Castle as a ship? Obviously you had no interest but it does have a interesting history. Nice and interesting debate about a definition of a pub though
If Mr. Fogg's is just a contemporary bar with a Victorian theme, then is Cittie of Yorke in Holborn just an Edwardian bar with a Tudor theme? The oft cited, and subjective, "atmosphere" requirement seems to only be an expectation of natural patina. So if Mr. Fogg's had 100 years of wear, would it not be a pub then? To exclude it as a pub simply because it's new seems arbitrary. If it lacks patina, when Victorian pubs were new they also lacked patina.
@@CheeseBae These are excellent philosophical points from a clearly sharp mind (I still think you might be my old friend Ben on that basis). The ultimate judgement that a given drinking establishment is a pub is clearly subjective and not necessarily consistent or even rational!
It's a great question Barry - and I'm sure there will be people on both sides of the fence! On the one hand many Wetherspoons are conversions (the buildings often had some other prior use, not originally as pubs) but on the other hand Tim Martin was inspired by Orwell's Moon Under Water, and even named some of the pubs after it. Personally I would always rather be in an independent pub, where the character of the landlord or landlady is very evident, but then again the real ale selection in a Spoons is often better than any of its nearby rivals, and prices are of course unbeatable.
What is a pub For me the definition is: 1. Sky Sports shown here banner outside 2. No real ale 3. Foreign lagers brewed in the UK 4. At least 3 or 4 televisions 5. Guinness served out of cans on one of those shaky machines. 6. St George's Cross flag at one of the upstairs windows 7. For sale sign outside 8. Cash only 🙄
Pub is short for “public house”, so if it’s a boat, it’s a bar. I like to think I know the difference between a pub and a bar, from several decades of experience though, even if it’s not so easy to put into words. But what I think I can say without contradiction is that no one ever referred to an All Bar One as their “local”.
@@TweedyPubs A curious one is The Robin, near Crouch Hill station. It’s only been a pub since the 1980s, I believe. I think it was a very early Wetherspoons. It’s gone through several names in the meantime. But though it’s obviously not a pub of great age, it has the right atmosphere, it’s definitely a local for many people, and it always has five very well kept cask ales on the bar. Might be an area worth exploring for you. There’s also the Old Dairy, The White Lion, and The Faltering Fullback. I’d probably veer over to the north west of the Robin and add The Shaftesbury as well. Although that could be added to a tour of Crouch End pubs too.
@@dirtywaterpj_dj Thanks - yes I was considering doing a Crouch End / Crouch Hill video some time soon, and the Robin is on my radar. I believe it's ran by Nick, who used to be at the Southampton Arms in Kentish Town, a pub I know well. I used to enjoy our chats while Nick was still at the Southampton and it would be nice to go and see his new place.
Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations, 610: 😮 'Describe the aroma of coffee. - Why can’t it be done? Do we lack the words? And for what are words lacking? - But how do we get the idea that such a description must after all be possible? Have you ever felt the lack of such a description? Have you tried to describe the aroma and not succeeded?'
Surely a pup is a place where a landlord and his / her family live, and where, at certain times, some of the rooms are open to the public for the sale and drinking of alcohol? Anything else is a bar, or an inn, or a restaurant. As an example I consider Wetherspoons to be a bar chain rather than a pub chain.
I think your definition makes a lot of sense, but it's often not the case for city pubs in particular nowadays. Or even some in the past: I spend a lot of time digging about in newspaper clippings about pubs from the Victorian era, and there are often references to pubs at which the landlord/landlady does not reside... but yes I think what you suggest is the essence of it, if you go back far enough.
Sadly, so many pubs are dying these days ...Asda is killing them out in the UK bigger towns on price, not quality, but price. In the countryside pubs will survive ....For now.
Twas ever thus - for centuries pubs have been considered by the authorities as hotbeds of sedition. Part of what I was trying to get at when I was talking about pubs turning into gastropubs (i.e. effectively restaurants) is that restaurants aren't actually very sociable places. People generally go in a pair or a group, sit at a table, and are very unlikely to talk to anyone not at their table. Whereas in a (good) pub, a conversation with a stranger is quite likely, particularly if you're waiting at the bar to be served. In my local I sometimes talk to ten different people while I'm there, and I didn't go there with any of them, and quite possibly one or two of them are people I had never met before.
@@TweedyPubs This is the big issue with bars in Canada, or Vancouver at least. Almost all of them are table service. You can sit at the bar at most of them, but then you risk getting stuck beside some unbearable bore like me. I miss the impromptu chats while waiting for the round to be poured. Worse still is the North American obsession with citrusy hops, but that's another story...
Everyone from Toronto that I know of, has gone to the Maple Leaf. Full of sterotypical Canadian nonsense. Canoes, lumberjack shirts, totem poles and hockey. I had high hopes that there woudl be a good Canadian beer on cask, but no. Strictly draught. Vist once, that's enough. By the way, I've never seen The Harp so empty!
As a country boy, the pub for me consists of a lot of wooden furniture, a lot of dogs, an open fire, shotguns propped in a corner, maybe horses tied up outside and tractors parked on the approach almost blocking the road. Oh and having to walk about bent over because the roof beams are so low. I once visited a pub in South Lincolnshire that was so antiquated it didn't have beer pumps, you asked the landlady for your beer of choice "three pints of Bateman's xxxb" for instance and she would scuttle off down into the cellar and return with a jug of beer, give you each a pint glass and pour it out for you. It had absolutely no food or music and the entertainment was wooden skittles. It was renowned for being a time warp and quite popular. It was literally a public house as in the building was her house with a bar in the front room, a cellar and begrudgingly two ground floor toilets. Alas it died when she died.
Sounds great! ...and sorry to hear it is no longer in business. Reminds me a bit of the Cherry Tree in Tintern, which similarly didn't have any hand pumps, just a barrel or two down a flight of steps behind the bar. They only served one beer: Hancocks HB - which was always at best average whenever I had it anywhere else, but at the Cherry Tree it tasted incredible.
I remember it as almost always being nearly empty in there. Tiny bar room with a bar billiards table in one corner and a fireplace in the other. Sadly now closed and converted to a private house.
For me the definition is:
1. A working Winchester rifle above the bar
2. Skittles, Shove Ha'Penny, Cribbage
3. Busty barmaids
4. Pork scratchings
5. Alcohol
6. One punter who is a permanent fixture who pretends to be an expert on every subject
7. Landlord's wife who flirts with everyone
8. Pub Quiz
9. Chess board that never gets used
10. Knows your beer by the second visit.
You'll notice that a place like Wetherspoons fails every category apart from number 5, and even that one is debatable.
#2 good luck finds those anywhere…🤷♂️
I would suggest adding "cute" as an and/or to "Busty". But otherwise, well done.
Another lovely entertaining and educational video. I have to admit that I burst into laughter when I saw your “Gastropub nightmare” meter! You should it with all your reviews. I look forward to the day you share your list of faves with us all. As always, a wonderful video, it went well with my morning coffee! Thank you…CHEERS!!!🍻
Thanks Ed! The gastropub-o-meter was a last minute addition while I was editing the video, I was struggling a bit to strike the right balance. I had never been to the Eagle before, and didn't know what to expect - I almost hoped for the sake of the video I would show up and ask if it was ok to just have a drink and I'd be rudely turned away, then I could have launched into a big rant about how gastropubs are ruining pubs etc etc... but the reality was the lady behind the bar was very polite and welcoming, and it would have felt very churlish to then sit outside the place being critical. Hopefully if nothing else that shows there's a lot of grey area here and it's hard to pin these definitions down!
The pub feel, IMHO, is more informal. A bar goes further (dining, ents, and range of drinks). Great content!
Really enjoyable videos. I’ve been in the Seven Stars and that’s certainly my kind of boozer. For me it’s about character, friendly vibes and decent booze.
My local is only 14 years old, but it’s in a building that’s probably at least late Victorian and the pub feels like it’s been there all that time.
Equally I was in a taproom in Bristol a couple of weeks ago. It’s only a couple of years old, not what you’d call a pub, but somehow due to the criteria I’ve highlighted above, I would most certainly call it a pub. I was made to feel very welcome, it had a quirky interior, friendly had regulars and the beer was excellent.
Keep up the good work. 🙂👍🍻
The Harp is a great pub. The Seven Stars is an awesome pub, great atmosphere and the food rocks. Great episode and topic Sir Tweedy. You showed Gordon’s in the intro, I might even consider it a pub. It is a great experience.
Hi Tweedy. I think your friends answer ….. “ you know when you are in one” ….. is the definitive answer. A bar which pretends to be a pub doesn’t have the atmosphere of a pub. Likewise a former pub that has been gastrofied no longer has the atmosphere of a pub.
I would though add to your friends answer that to be a “real pub” the “atmospheric pub” MUST serve cask ale. 👍🍺
An excellent edition sir, very thought provoking. Keep up the good work and 10k subscribers beckon. 👏👏👍😀🍺🥖🧀🧅
Thanks Andrew! Yes initially "you know when you're in one" sounded like a lazy cop out but the more I think about it the more I find it hard to better.
I agree about the importance of cask ale but I have occasionally still experienced that sense of "pub magic" even in pubs without it. I could be wrong but I get the sense many pubs in Ireland, for example, only have keg taps... and although I've only really explored Dublin to date, I did find a couple of gems there. Plus of course Sam Smith's pubs here - often beautiful interiors, have at most one hand pump (Old Brewery Bitter), and increasingly many of the London locations seem to only have keg taps.
@@TweedyPubs I guess I am showing my age having experienced the near death knell of cask beer in the 1970’s and the importance of the fledgling CAMRA. In West London, where I was brought up, it became a real hunt to find pubs with cask ale. Yes, there were plenty of pubs with keg which had the atmosphere of a proper pub. Yet to me, a pub without cask remains a pub which has lost its appeal, the one ingredient you enter a pub for, proper, real ale.
To my shame I’ve yet to visit Ireland. I guess I can forgive them for serving keg given that they will offer stout as opposed to citrusy keg. 👍😀🍺
What a challenging question and I tend to agree with your friend. You just know.
I’ve tried to think about pubs I knew that were definitely pubs, then closed and reopened, and were no longer pubs.
Thinking about such examples I’ve known, the “refurbished” pub has typically seen all the creaky corners swept away, and yet paradoxically, they then try to create some sense of antiquity. Rather than the evolved sense of cosy chaos, it becomes like something you’d find in Disney World.
For me, a pub is not a designed space. It’s something that has grown into whatever building it finds itself in, or, it was designed as a pub a long time ago, and has slowly adapted over the subsequent decades.
The exceptions to this are the examples you’ve shown a few times, where a pub has been established in an old building in recent decades, but that has been done without the building being gutted.
I probably need to give this more thought and this is certainly a thought provoking question, excellently presented here. I don’t blame you for not going in All Bar One!
Thank you Mr WC21!
"Refurbished" is a word which has started to take on almost terrifying dimensions for me now. It's practically never good, is it?
I think you're right, you can't just create a pub overnight. That hard-to-define atmosphere includes the echoes of all those who have made merry in that space before. Every visitor makes a small contribution to that patina.
This video is certainly no Ploughman's Lunch-esque blockbuster but I'm glad I made it. When I tell people I make videos about pubs I quickly qualify it by saying that I'm only interested in pubs with a bit of history behind them. After making this video I've realised, in my opinion at least, if it doesn't have that bit of history it isn't really a pub!
@@TweedyPubs you are right - a terrifying word that almost inevitably means the removal of all charm!
I liked the boat, but the fact it’s a boat makes it a bar to me. I can’t really explain why!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd As another commenter said, pub is of course short for "public house" and a boat is not a house!
Errr.... apart from those house boats.
Good morning, Tweedy
A question indeed : What is a Pub ?
I think you could ask 100 people that and get 100 different answers. I know many younger people have a much different idea of what a pub is compared to my own.
I personally like a "basic no frills" pub that looks "lived in" and keeps good "traditional" daught beers (not all citrusy !!) and offers simple "pubby" snacks and basic simple meals.
I am not a fan of overly decorated / redesigned pubs, pubs with loud music, or intrusive TVs, and definitely, like yourself, not gastropubs !!!
A pub is something different to all of us.
Your friend was very much on the mark with the observation that "you know when you are in one." This is very true, and I know exactly what he meant - I sometimes can not pinpoint a reason when I go into a new pub, but I just know it feels right 😁👍
Have a great day.
Thanks Lee! Sounds like you and I are of a very similar mind on this one!
😁👍
Very interesting, thank you. As a foreigner, I sometimes wonder if it's still relevant what the sign on the door says. Is there a difference between a tavern, an inn, a saloon bar and so on, or is it just of historical interest?
Thanks Martin! I think the original meanings have been lost and many of these terms are used interchangeably now! At some point in history a tavern would have been a more upmarket pub, likely specialising in wine rather than beer. Whereas at a similar point in history the alehouse would have been your more basic beer focused pub. An inn would have offered accommodation as well as functioning as a pub. A saloon bar would have been part of a pub rather than a whole pub (the part made to appeal to slightly more upmarket clientele) - but yes I have seen whole establishments described as a saloon bar as well, which I assume it an attempt to make a place seem a bit posher...
Great video love the tattersall
Reading "Chicken in a Basket" almost induced time travel, to a period when scampi was considered exotic...
Somehow the running joke of "soup in a basket" never grew old for me.
@@TweedyPubs Came here to say the same.😁😁
Came here to crack that one. It first appeared in a book from the mid 80s. "How to be a complete Wally"
Scampi is exotic ..blasphemer! 🤣
What is a Pub to you?!
For me, a pub is a place without playing music, having any sort of entertainment like TVs, no Farrow and Ball paint kinda Gastro Establishment.
For me a pub is a place where they have a good selection of ale, rustic interior and a local community.
For example like the Southampton arms.
Great Video with a lot of information and food for thoughts.
As usual Tweedy, keep up the good work. What a lovely content and channel.
Excellent video thanks 👏👏👏
When I worked at the MOD we used that boat, the Tattershall Castle, after work a lot because it's just across the road from the Main Building. It was nicknamed the Belgrano.
Yep, I'm a bit fond of the Tatty Castle myself
i grew up in the 90s so by the time of the smoking ban in 2007, and the shift towards every pub offering some kind of food i wasn’t even old enough to legally drink in pubs
nonetheless, i kind of miss when pubs smelled of stale beer and cigarette smoke, rather than smelling of chips and vinegar.
i definitely prefer a pub to be a drinks only venue, no music, no kids, no food, but i appreciate most have to offer food and became more family friendly out of financial necessity. it feels like a rarity to find an old school ‘wet led’ pub these days
Fantastic video again.Your friend is correct. You know when you are in a pub
Another excellent video, informative as ever but this one almost delving into the psyche of the pubgoer and the bar flitter thoroughly enjoyed it and a fabulous quote for us all. "You know when you are in one”. Quality content and yet again thank you.
What a great channel. Subscribed. I'm not even interested in pubs, per se, but this brings the whole idea of pub culture alive.
I'd be interested in your response to the novels of Patrick Hamilton, who was the true poet of London pubs in the 1940s and 1950s...
That was something a bit different, enjoyed it, some good research undertaken. I must make a point of visiting the Holy Tavern, next time I'm in London.
Aaaah! The pub!! Isn’t it great that there are pubs for all tastes. For me, when I walk into a pub my spirit lifts!! It depends what’s in your soul I believe. As your mate said, “you’ll know when you’re in one “
I go to a pub every day and have done since I was 17! (68 now 🤦♂️)
I love beer but I love pubs more!!!
Can I recommend a film/documentary to you and all your viewers, The Irish pub. Currently back on UA-cam. To me, they are proper pubs, and the type that I like. But I go in all sorts, town pubs, country pubs all sorts. Nothing like them!❤
As always, keep up the good work mate! I hope our paths cross someday 🍺🍺🍺cheers!
Thanks Paul! I'll take a look for the film you mentioned.
Thanks for recommending the film "The Irish Pub". Very sensitively made and brilliant camera work. (The comment section of this channel starts to feel a little pubby - you know)
I like the way you phrase your conclusion, definitions can be hard to articulate but still very meaningful. I’m reminded of something an American judge said, on the subject of defining obscenity: “I could never intelligibly do so, but I know it when I see it.”
Regardless, excellent video.
Today I learned we have very very few pubs in America. I need to visit England, sigh. I'm obsessed with Cask ale. And thanks for defining what a Gastro-pub is, we don't really use that term in my area.
Very interesting topic. A friend of mine and I are trying to plan a tour of all the pubs in our town (Skipton in North Yorkshire) - and we are trying to decide what actually constitutes a 'pub'. We definitely need to come up with a definition.
Good luck on that important fact finding mission! Definitely a study best conducted out in the field, as it were.
We need Tweedy merch: a t-shirt with Tweedy's face grimacing and the "Full on gastro nightmare" slogan.
Now there's an image!
A wonderful thought provoking video. We all think we know a pub is when we walk into or past one but the definitions cause some reconsideration. Love your channel, cheers!
What a great video!!
Great video, Tweedy. Really informative analysis. It's complicated! I think it should appear on one of those American reaction videos, as the poor dears struggle with the concept. I was so pleased to see an appearance of Brolly. Made my day. 👍
Thanks Peter! Whilst* I'm often first in line to gently poke fun at our cousins across the pond I think it would be fair to say that even here in the UK we can't quite pin down a lot of these definitions!
Always delighted to hear people like spotting the brolly - on this occasion it turned out to be unnecessary despite the forecasts - so hard to predict the weather recently!
* As an aside, I believe the word "whilst" doesn't really exist in American English.
Delightful video John!! Even better are the amount of views in such a small time since upload (1,300 and climbing fast!) The Holy Tavern was my personal favourite. I had never heard of Roxy Beaujolais until now but what a fantastic name?!! I’m guessing she married a guy from Essex called Mickey Shiraz? 😊
That was fascinating. It would be interesting to see your views on micropubs. I find that they often embody many of the qualities that Orwell looked for better than many more conventional pubs.
Thank you! I would love to do a video on micropubs - there aren't really any in (central) London but I hope to have more time to get out of town this summer. I think Kent might be a good place to head for...?
@@TweedyPubs Kent is very good for micropubs. I know a few!
I shall look forward to that. Kent is such an interesting county, but I'm afraid I don't know its micropubs. I have yet to find a bad micropub - they are never what I would refer to as 'gastricisised'.
Hi Tweedy great video When do you think is the golden era of the real pub
I’d love a pint with Tweedy 🍻
@@sixer6er Thanks, but I'm a lot more boring without the luxury of video editing!
I doubt that.@@TweedyPubs
Thank you, Tweedy, for explaining the basics and illustrating them in a fun, charming way, as usual! As it seems, there are some "non-negotiables" for what constitutes a real, traditional pub, but then there's also room for unique traits, which makes it interesting.
Thanks Kathi, and I think you make a very good point there - the fact it is so hard to define what a pub is may actually be a strength, rather than a weakness - it allows for all sort of quirky / eccentric deviation!
Nice video chap 🍺🍺 I’m happy in any watering hole lol…..pubs inns bars tavern 👍👍😎
Really interesting video Tweedy! It does seem to be a case of "you know it when you see it". I think changing CAMRA's requirement #2 from "draught beer of cider" to "cask beer or cider" would help better define the pub. Under the current definition, a lot of American (or American-style) "bars" could be classified as pubs...and they are not 😀. I realize that wouldn't be a perfect definition, but as an outsider from the states, I really associate the handpump with the pub! I'd also like CAMRA to add a 5th requirement--that an appropriate carpet must be present--but that's probably going too far 😆.
When I was working in the US I went into a bar in West Des Moines that had the attributes of a pub, including the traditional British sticky carpet which squelched when you walked across it😂 I actually prefer wooden floorboards.
@@Lemmi99 Yeah, I can see why pubs have been going away from the carpet--it must be impossible to keep clean. But it does have a nice traditional look.
Cheers Tweedy for tackling this subject. I've often wondered myself where the line is when trying to decide which establishment is a legit example of a pub or not. Also thanks for that explanation of the 3 draught scenarios and the difference between kegs and casks. Have you done a video tour of Clapham pubs? I was wondering about the Windmill on Clapham Common, to me it seems very well situated in the gastro camp or restaurant but it often gets pub of the year awards in that general area. Any thoughts?
For those of us who like pubs and beer a question like this, which seems so simple, can actually be quite hard to define. You may need to start with defining what is a bar and what is a pub and how the two differ. I think your friend has a point though, if the place you walk into isn't a full on restaurant which, I think is an obvious difference to a pub or a bar then it just sort of comes down to aesthetics and subjective taste or opinion which, is probably based on the atmosphere of the place. A place I've always found hard to define is The Euston Tap. I've always considered it a bar rather than a pub and I think that mainly comes down to the interior and atmosphere inside. However, others may not think twice than to call it a pub. What do you think Tweedy?
Thanks TKP - yes I agree it does have a lot to do with aesthetics. If I was asked the question about whether the Euston Tap was a bar or a pub I too would call it a bar... but I suspect if I go and re-watch the video on Euston / King's Cross / St. Pancras where I covered it, then I'm fairly sure I would have slipped at least once and referred to it as a pub.
Thanks for this one, it was a great video. Maybe a real pub is one where all the locals turn around to look at you when you enter. 👍
I think having locals is a big part of it! As someone said elsewhere in the comments here, it's hard to imagine anyone calling a branch of All Bar One their local...
Love your videos, keep them coming. I'm more or less retired now but have chosen to work in pubs for the last few years because i love the proper traditional environment of pubs. Should pubs have music or not in this regard? My gaffer allows it where i work but not in others he owns.
Personally i do like music, i like to get hold of the i player first thing before the youngsters get hold of it😂
Thank you! Personally my preference is always for quiet pubs, without any music, perhaps just the murmur of conversation, the chinking of glasses, maybe the crackle of the fire...? ...but I think music can work in some settings. As you allude to, it's a question of who is choosing the songs!
@@TweedyPubsI go to pubs to wind down, and for a bit of conversation. The music can be an annoyance but that depends on the volume at which it is set. I would prefer that an establishment played music than have TV screens up. The flickering images ruin the atmosphere.
I feel like I'm either old or just grumpy, but I prefer no TVs and no music. Sometimes I will turn and walk if the music is loud or there are 5 panel TVs flashing. I want to relax and enjoy the surroundings and voices. There are very few environments where we are not being hit over the head with screens or thumping music.
@eduardo7309 If I could "like" your comment ten times I would
That was a fascinating cultural tour. To be fair to All Bar One they don't pretend to be anything else. I live in the countryside and I think that most pubs here tend to remain "pubs" because they have to attract the widest demographic to survive. Perhaps that is a criterion - you can walk into a real pub wearing anything from jeans to a DJ and no-one will care. Thank you
Thanks Chris! Perhaps I was slightly unfair on All Bar One, as you say, they absolutely aren't trying to cash in on the "Ye Olde Pubbe" trade - quite the opposite in fact... I was just trying to find an extreme example of somewhere that would fit that CAMRA definition but absolutely doesn't feel like a pub!
Obviously the sort of pubs I like (woody interiors / real ale / one time watering holes of Samuel Pepys and Dr Johnson / etc etc) aren't everyone's cup of tea, and it's better for everyone involved to provide alternatives for that other crowd rather than force them to sit in a corner of my sort of pub being grumpy and miserable!
Number 4 in the definition given by CAMRA is key for me. Often when abroad you'll find places that call themselves "pubs" (very often "Irish" pubs), but one of the key elements that stops them feeling like a pub is table service. Service at the bar forces punters to interact with others and thus acts a social lubricant (in addition to the consumption of alcohol). If you sit at a table and are served there, then people are far less like to interact with strangers.
I agree Martin, ordering from the bar rather than at your table is a really vital part of creating the atmosphere. With table service you're then tied to that table. What if you change your mind half way through and want to sit somewhere else? Or want to wander around and inspect the pictures on the walls? How could busy city pubs with standing room only and people spilling out onto the pavement work with a table service model? Table service, as you say, also pretty much kills the likelihood of having a conversation with a stranger. It even makes it hard if you spot an old friend at another table and want to go join them or vice verse.
I also really like the sense of freedom of being able to get up and walk out at any moment! With table service you've always got to settle up before you leave, and my experience of bars and cafes on the continent is that that can be maddeningly slow sometimes!
I like the sound of a beer engine...
"A beer engine" sounds like the Americans just invented something really cool,
Really powerful,
Really inefficient,
But probably quite fun.
Hi John, I think for me it's the social element, going down to your local with your mates sometimes everyone's there sometimes not. Bumping in to old friends. Often they are the focus of the community, quiz night, darts, the football team. Your one, was it the hat competition?, was a good example.
If it's not marked with a PH on an OS map then perhaps it doesn't qualify,
Is it a question of licensing what was the difference to a beer house?
Tastes change and pubs constantly evolve the worst is seeing them closed and converted to other uses, far too many in my old town Portsmouth.
I quite like the Wetherspoons chains as they are a reliable place for a drink and somewhere to get something to eat. This week I pointed some work colleagues who were in the UK in the direction of The Sir Alec Rose in Port Solent, I was impressed they had chosen mushy peas I will find out next week if they tried the beer. I often find the Spanish don't like cask ale because it's not as cold as they like 😮😮
One thing I like about the pubs in the UK is that they are often imposing, interesting buildings with lots of stories to tell as you frequently regale us. I've not really found anything similar down here.
Now, what would Keith Floyd say? A very thought provoking video, well done!!
Thanks David!
It's interesting you mention the public house / beer house distinction (mostly a 19th century thing) as I get the sense it was actually the beer houses which would have felt more like "pubby pubs" to me. They were unlikely to serve any food and I don't think they would have had any airs and graces. They certainly wouldn't have served fancy cocktails!
My differentiation of a pub/tavern vs a bar is that a bar is a place where you go to drink, and perhaps conversation may ensue. A pub or tavern (I use them interchangeably) is where you go to talk & meet friends (perhaps new ones) and where the drinking merely aids the conversation. You may need quite a lot of assistance to your conversation, to be sure, but the focus is still on personal interaction rather than drinking.
Great editing with Camra Logo!
Thank you - it was one of those happy accidents! I just happened to have done that bit of talking to camera with the London Eye behind me - it wasn't planned. When I came to editing it I thought it might be nice to put the CAMRA logo on screen during that bit, for a moment had it on the other side of the screen, but then the obvious location was staring me in the face!
Cask vs Keg is something that every beer drinker should understand.
Agreed - I was surprised there aren't better videos already out there explaining this!
@@TweedyPubs You should check out the Marisco Tavern on Lundy Island. Not a huge selection of beers but that would make for an incredible Tweedy adventure!
From the rumours on the grapevine, the Houses Of Parliament is a private members pub with many MPs and staffers sozzled until late at night. Would be great if an insider invited you to make a video of the bars inside Parliament.
I've had a pint at staff bar in Buckingham Palace and Balmoral Castle so I believe that rumor indeed..
A real essence of a true pub is a place where people can go for a few hours to escape from ‘“this mortal coil”. I find the best pub atmosphere is always at the end of the working day or week when people are free to enjoy drinking beer as a way of escaping the daily grind of work life. If ever you are in Sydney go to Australia square just after working hours on a Friday to experience the of exuberance of alcohol/freedom and of course no work tomorrow.
Interesting dissertation on this one Tweedy. I prefer a pub to be primarily for quaffing with perhaps a ham and cheese toasty on offer but not much more and a restaurant to be for dining without a large bar. Perhaps I'm a Luddite and this preference is harder to find these days, I don't quite understand the business model of gastropubs as the profit margin on food is minimal and drink sales is where the markup is highest. American bar science dictates that every seat of an establishment should generate X amount of revenue per year...I don't see how a gastropub does that efficiently.
Thanks Al! A thing I am perpetually confused about is when you talk to people in the pub trade they tell you they make all their money on food, and when you talk to people in the restaurant trade they tell you they make all their money on the drinks!
@@TweedyPubs Indeed, that is very quare although in the US the average profit on a pint of beer is near 65 percent and a cocktail profit comes in at 85 percent. I would have my doubts the profit on food is anywhere near that given all of the associated costs.
Slightly off topic. You visited the Eagle and the Seven Stars. Today I discovered listening to an In Our Time podcast that Elephant and Castle can refer to the inscription of an elephant and castle on gold coins minted using African gold. I suspect Eagle and Seven Stars also originate from coinage. The Eagle obviously referring to the eagle on an American gold coin that would have been used for Trans Atlantic trade. As for Seven Stars, there are several Roman coins from the 1st and 2nd century AD that have seven stars on their face. And pubs called The Antelope could refer to the antelope inscribed on the back of a South African gold Krugerrand.
I believe pubs near ports often served a secondary purpose as banks for sailors. The pub would store the coins in their safety box and issue the sailor a paper letter of ownership. This could also be why pubs had snugs. So that business could be done in private, such as purchase of indentured servants, but in a place that both parties trusted. Over in Ireland it is common to find pubs inside hardware stores, pharmacies and funeral director parlours. I visited a pub in Dingle where you could buy a pint of stout and a pair of farmer's boots at the same time.
The derivation I've usually heard for this particular Seven Stars is that apparently some Dutch sailors had settled in the area, and it refers to the seven provinces of the Netherlands at that time... but I think that is partly conjecture, because there are some old references which some people attribute to the pub as "Leg and Seven Stars" which is believed to be a corruption of "League of Seven Stars".
I think your suggestion is equally plausible! In a previous video I briefly covered the era in the 17th century when pubs were issuing their own tokens, because the government of the day couldn't (or wouldn't) manufacture enough small value coins to go around. Another potential link between pub (names) and coinage there.
The Seven stars I know of, has the constellation of the plough ( or Ursa Major, the Great Bear) on its sign
Is recalcitrance a factor in the definition of a pub I wonder? I went into a pub here in Southend some years ago, (I won't give the name). I was off alcohol at the time so I asked for a coffee.
"Don't do coffee"
"Ok. I'll have a coke then. Can I pay by card?"
"Don't take card".
"Do you do sandwiches?"
"No".
I couldn't help a wry smile.
I might add that I'd met the bloke behind the bar about twenty years previously in another pub in town and He was still wearing the same pinstripe suit. I say all this without rancour, as I share a traditionalist leaning myself. Someone needs to dig their heels in.
I think that definitely is a factor! There's something about a public house which is just as the name suggests - a house made open to the public, but in good pubs you do still get a sense you're being invited into the home of the landlord/landlady. Therefore you have to follow their rules and accept their hospitality on their terms!
New York City, the late, lamented Grassroots Tavern. A party of California, like, girls, y'know, came in and ordered a flurry of foo-foo drinks. The bartender, Eric (!), looked at the 'leader' and told her "Lady, this is an old-fashioned bar. Do you want your whiskey in your beer or next to it?" I never knew I could pass a beer through my nose! 🤣🤣🤣
Please spill the beans. I grew up in Southend and knew the pubs well. If you cant say its full name, then initials will do!
@@bruceknights8330 This was a good few years ago and one of the pubs I mention has disappeared but used to be in Southend Victoria station. Not a bad pub actually, quite pleasant. I used to sit in there getting pissed as a fart before going to college classes. The one that didn't do coffee or take card was in Southchurch road and has had so many name changes I can't remember what the hell it was called at the time but I'm sure it's a very, very nice pub now!
@robertgraves8843 The Sutton. Bloody awful pub now reborn under a new name and much improved. The pub in Victoria Station was also pretty dire.
The decent pubs were the Railway Hotel, the Cricketers, The Spread Eagle, and the Cork and Cheese. None were spectacular. You had to go to Leigh or Rochford to find better pubs. Southend is much better served these days.
i agree with the Camra criteria for a pub i have to agree about so called gastro pubs they are resteraunts not pubs interesting vlog again 🍻
A interesting question to which there are many answers though I do not 😁😁cheers have a nice afternoon 😂
Oooooooooooo this will spark some debate Mr Tweed, For me its got to have good beer and a comfortable homily atmosphere, but that's just me.
Yes I tried to go into this one relatively open minded and hoping it might encourage discussion! I completely agree about atmosphere in particular - so important, but also so hard to define.
@@TweedyPubs Just one more thing the Gastro meter should be on all your casts with the possibility of T shirt mech.
Having being raised in Ireland and lived in Britain, I had a very clear idea of what a real pub is like. Now retired in Canada I have to tolerate restaurants with bars that call themselves 'pubs'. Everyone is seated, it's more about food than drink, table service is mandatory (customers are not allowed to carry their drink from one area to another), you can only order one drink per person at once so forget the pint and accompanying large Scotch. The conversation dwindles once hunting and hockey have been dealt with, unlike in the poorest UK areas where evolution and the gold standard often crop up randomly. There is one decent pub though, The Crow and Gate at Naniamo BC. It was built by an English gentleman in the early 70s and the beamed ceilings and open fireplaces with leaded light windows would pass muster in any English town. Still table service though. To solve all these problems I built my own pub in the basement.
You belong drinking alone in your basement.
I have a question, if I may. What’s the origin (and, sometimes ongoing ‘tenancy’ arrangements) of City of London ‘pubs’ underground?
eg. ‘The Red Lion’ Watling St (no longer there) or, ‘The Dandy Roll’ just round the corner (no longer there). ‘The Three Crowns’ just off Gresham St. too. I recall a few major changes of occupancy (above ground) & even the entire building itself in one case but, the pubs themselves stayed (for a while, at least).
When does a pub become an "Inn"? We stayed in Ambleside in the Lake District recently. Across the road was the Wateredge Inn. It qualifies as a pub, I think, on all the Camra criteria but has paying guests staying.
@@johnthresher259 I've always assumed "inn" implies a pub which offers accomodation, but over the years it probably has lost some of its meaning.
There needs to be a separate category for things that are clearly not pubs but not exactly restaurants. In the case of, say, Boston Tea Party, they close at 5pm or thereabouts, so it's a licensed cafe. Cafe Rouge is a cafe-restaurant with really odd opening hours (closes at 7.30 pm? Are you a restaurant or not, make your mind up!). AB1 opens normal pub hours but the website makes much of 'booking a table.' If you have to book it isn't a pub.
On the other hand CAMRA allows 'pub' to describe places that to me are clearly music venues or nightclubs.
My quick and dirty definition before watching the video was:
A self-contained establishment (i.e. not a hotel* or sports club bar) that sells draught beer for consumption on site, doesn't require the purchase of food (i.e. not a restaurant), is generally open to the public without a charge (i.e. not a club). And I'll add two: doesn't require advanced booking and is open regular pub hours at least some days of the week.
*this doesn't exclude pubs that also function as hotels.
What makes a pub is the people. The people behind the bar are very important. The people on the your side of the bar are equally important.
A pub should serve beer.
A pub should not serve food.
A pub should not have background music.
A pub should not have television sets.
A pub should be a place where philosophers can meet and talk rubbish.
A pub should be a second home.
I have found such a place and I and my fellow old fogeys are happy there.
A lot of modern keg beers are not pasteurised.
Hope you vist Liverpool and Chester soon.
Consider following Orwell to Wigan and the pubs thereabouts. I cannot guarantee the quality of the establishments but I think it will make good content and the locals are "special".
Have you ever thought of taking groups of like minded folk on a tour of your favoured hostelries?
Or does the stringent business of making a living get in the way?
I don't think I'd be very good as a real time tour guide! The good thing about making the videos is that I can pause filming and look things up on my phone, and then (hopefully) edit all the boring bits out after the fact. I also like the freedom of flying solo like this! Two of the pubs I visited when out making this video were spontaneous additions on the day, and other times I get a few pubs in and realise I'm not really in the mood and just give up and go home!
As I recall, the All Bar One concept was designed to attract the trade of the female post-work commuter who was put-off by the traditional male dominated city pub, and going home (perhaps to drink in suburbia) rather than meeting friends in the city for a drink, before travelling home Hence such feature such as large clear windows that made the interior visible from the street and the emphasis on the wine offering.
Are they pubs? Well the clue is in the name……..
They're the sort of place you end up going to for work do's because the boring women don't want to go to a pub, they're too noisy, beery etc etc. I don't think any normal man would go into one of these places out of choice.
@@BigJoeChrisLewis unless you want a great opportunity to meet women....
There's a bar,or maybe more than one,in Parliament although not available to the general public so I'd guess licenced as a private members club?
not open to the public so not a 'public house'!
I enjoy your videos - maybe when utilizing the CAMRA definition of a pub, it's not so much "is it a pub?" BUT "is it a GOOD pub?" I do cringe a bit when I see the G word in a pub's description LOL!
Yes I think you're right - there are plenty of places which completely fit the criteria of being a pub... but that still doesn't necessarily mean you'd actually want to go there!
I think CAMRA’s definition is pretty good, though as you point out not 100%. Post Covid, many people go into pubs and ask if there’s a table free, but if pubs can fill their premises with diners why not? One issue is, that with so many seats ostensibly reserved for diners, the only place for drinkers is the bar. This, usually central location, allows a few determined drinkers to dominate the whole pub, I won’t repeat their limited vocabulary! That said, the 🇺🇸 bar is often much more reflective (think Cheers). Plus, no food (nuts), dogs or kids 😁
Dogs, well behaved ones at least, should be welcome. Kids are different 😊
Me again, I have been in the Cheers "bar" in Boston, and it is not a pleasant place.
@@oml81mm perhaps that’s the actual Cheers bar. My experience was bars in California…
@@apuldram It was "the actual" and was full of tourists. I did not stay very long.
For me, a pub cannot have large open spaces on the main floor. Space should be broken up to give the air of semi-private booths.
I’m thinking that pub fans often wonder if pubs exist in Germany, Czech Republic, etc. A Kneipe in Germany seems close. Many Kneipen are small boozers where you stand to order your draught beer. The places in Germany that call themselves “Irish pubs” are for tourists. They are bars that serve beer and wine along with food.
As a German, but not an expert I'd say though that Kneipen traditionally have been/still are a male domain (and that's fine, men need spaces for themselves), so they were not really intended to be "open to the general public", as pubs are. But there may be regional differences like the Altbier-/Kölsch-Kneipen in Düsseldorf and Cologne that attract a mixed crowd or village Kneipen which sometimes offer good food, so families go there on Sundays to have lunch.
Many pubs charge an entrance fee to see a good quality band. By CAMRA's definition that would sometimes disqualify them as pubs.
Have you visited one of the few surviving pubs without a bar? I wonder if that's affected the definition in the past
3:26 "Afternoon ladies..."
That's the other channel! 😂
I’d concur regarding Mr. Fogg’s Tavern that it’s not really a pub. I have had a few good Thursday nights in the place for the cockney signaling with Tom Carradine, still, not really a pub. The gin bar upstairs is also a fun time but the presence of a craft gin bar upstairs does nothing to help the argument that the place is a pub. Nor does the fact that Mr. Fogg’s is part of a chain of similarly themed establishments. So agreed…not a pub, but instead the manufactured facsimile of one.
I went to Tattersall Castle in the 1980's and avoided it since.
It's possible I was wrong.
Styles of pubs change over the years...id call that Tattershall Castle a pub, seems worthy of it..Harp is defo a pub...i struggle with ex shops pretending to be a pub where there's no atmosphere, just selling rubbish craft stuff...Save our Pubs John...thats what it is all about🍺👊👊
Thanks Dave! Atmosphere is a tricky one isn't it? You can't really manufacture a good pub atmosphere (although you certainly can manufacture a bad one!). As mentioned in another comment I'm keen to do an "investigation" into micropubs, hopefully at some point this summer, to find out whether newly created pubs like that can still feel "pubby".
@@TweedyPubs all I can day John is good luck with yours Strawberry chocolate Caramel Peanut Butter Popcorn Sours & IPAs🥴🥴🥴😁🍺
0:24 pub from "Crying Game"??? Plus, to me, in the USA, a pub is a bar (but maybe a tad more classy). Then again, what do I know..........
What is a boat? I'd describe the former passenger ferry Tattershall Castle as a ship? Obviously you had no interest but it does have a interesting history.
Nice and interesting debate about a definition of a pub though
For somewhere to be a pub, I feel like you need to be able to walk in, sit down , and be no more 'on ceremony' than you would be in your own home.
To me the boat with a bar is not a pub. Interesting I always wondered what the definition of a pub is.
I think someone has to live there. The CAMRA definition is fine but, if it's a lock-up, however nice it is, it's a bar.
A public house!
How can you not start by saying Public House?
If Mr. Fogg's is just a contemporary bar with a Victorian theme, then is Cittie of Yorke in Holborn just an Edwardian bar with a Tudor theme? The oft cited, and subjective, "atmosphere" requirement seems to only be an expectation of natural patina. So if Mr. Fogg's had 100 years of wear, would it not be a pub then? To exclude it as a pub simply because it's new seems arbitrary. If it lacks patina, when Victorian pubs were new they also lacked patina.
@@CheeseBae These are excellent philosophical points from a clearly sharp mind (I still think you might be my old friend Ben on that basis). The ultimate judgement that a given drinking establishment is a pub is clearly subjective and not necessarily consistent or even rational!
Dare I ask about JD Wetherspoons?
Are they have pubs? Wine Bars? Cocktail bars? Restaurants?
It's a great question Barry - and I'm sure there will be people on both sides of the fence! On the one hand many Wetherspoons are conversions (the buildings often had some other prior use, not originally as pubs) but on the other hand Tim Martin was inspired by Orwell's Moon Under Water, and even named some of the pubs after it. Personally I would always rather be in an independent pub, where the character of the landlord or landlady is very evident, but then again the real ale selection in a Spoons is often better than any of its nearby rivals, and prices are of course unbeatable.
What is a pub For me the definition is:
1. Sky Sports shown here banner outside
2. No real ale
3. Foreign lagers brewed in the UK
4. At least 3 or 4 televisions
5. Guinness served out of cans on one of those shaky machines.
6. St George's Cross flag at one of the upstairs windows
7. For sale sign outside
8. Cash only
🙄
Pub is short for “public house”, so if it’s a boat, it’s a bar. I like to think I know the difference between a pub and a bar, from several decades of experience though, even if it’s not so easy to put into words. But what I think I can say without contradiction is that no one ever referred to an All Bar One as their “local”.
Good point!
@@TweedyPubs A curious one is The Robin, near Crouch Hill station. It’s only been a pub since the 1980s, I believe. I think it was a very early Wetherspoons. It’s gone through several names in the meantime. But though it’s obviously not a pub of great age, it has the right atmosphere, it’s definitely a local for many people, and it always has five very well kept cask ales on the bar. Might be an area worth exploring for you. There’s also the Old Dairy, The White Lion, and The Faltering Fullback. I’d probably veer over to the north west of the Robin and add The Shaftesbury as well. Although that could be added to a tour of Crouch End pubs too.
@@dirtywaterpj_dj Thanks - yes I was considering doing a Crouch End / Crouch Hill video some time soon, and the Robin is on my radar. I believe it's ran by Nick, who used to be at the Southampton Arms in Kentish Town, a pub I know well. I used to enjoy our chats while Nick was still at the Southampton and it would be nice to go and see his new place.
Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations, 610: 😮
'Describe the aroma of coffee. - Why can’t it be done? Do we lack the words? And for what are words lacking? - But how do we get the idea that such a description must after all be possible? Have you ever felt the lack of such a description? Have you tried to describe the aroma and not succeeded?'
It's not a pub if you walk inside and feel space. Pub should feel cosy and tight.
For some reason my comment got deleted. Not sure why. Had this happen three times now. Perhaps the YT Gods are angry with me!!
It may have to do with automatic YT word filters. Maybe completely rephrasing your comment helps.
Surely a pup is a place where a landlord and his / her family live, and where, at certain times, some of the rooms are open to the public for the sale and drinking of alcohol? Anything else is a bar, or an inn, or a restaurant. As an example I consider Wetherspoons to be a bar chain rather than a pub chain.
I think your definition makes a lot of sense, but it's often not the case for city pubs in particular nowadays. Or even some in the past: I spend a lot of time digging about in newspaper clippings about pubs from the Victorian era, and there are often references to pubs at which the landlord/landlady does not reside... but yes I think what you suggest is the essence of it, if you go back far enough.
Hey Tweedy
Just paid $9.00 USD or £7.00 for a 16 oz pour of London’s Pride
Los Angeles CA, USA
Sadly, so many pubs are dying these days ...Asda is killing them out in the UK bigger towns on price, not quality, but price. In the countryside pubs will survive ....For now.
Get rid of the pubs. Get rid of restaurants, get rid of hotels. Get rid of shops, Get rid of people meeting. Get rid of people talking.....😲
Twas ever thus - for centuries pubs have been considered by the authorities as hotbeds of sedition. Part of what I was trying to get at when I was talking about pubs turning into gastropubs (i.e. effectively restaurants) is that restaurants aren't actually very sociable places. People generally go in a pair or a group, sit at a table, and are very unlikely to talk to anyone not at their table. Whereas in a (good) pub, a conversation with a stranger is quite likely, particularly if you're waiting at the bar to be served. In my local I sometimes talk to ten different people while I'm there, and I didn't go there with any of them, and quite possibly one or two of them are people I had never met before.
@@TweedyPubs This is the big issue with bars in Canada, or Vancouver at least. Almost all of them are table service. You can sit at the bar at most of them, but then you risk getting stuck beside some unbearable bore like me. I miss the impromptu chats while waiting for the round to be poured. Worse still is the North American obsession with citrusy hops, but that's another story...
Everyone from Toronto that I know of, has gone to the Maple Leaf. Full of sterotypical Canadian nonsense. Canoes, lumberjack shirts, totem poles and hockey. I had high hopes that there woudl be a good Canadian beer on cask, but no. Strictly draught. Vist once, that's enough. By the way, I've never seen The Harp so empty!