There may be too much emphasis here on low dipoles radiating "only" straight up and getting them half a wavelength up (very few installations have that much height on the lower bands). I have been testing a 40 meter dipole at 4 feet off the ground recently (after a support failed - it was a sloper with both horizontal and vertical characteristics), and it reached Japan as well as all over the US, Mexico and Hawaii using a few watts of FT8 (with no sunspots). It works much better than was expected. A low dipole is often better than some small commercial antennas that have significant loss, and a great deal lower in cost. The most important thing about an antenna is that you have something. The antenna you have is better than the antenna you dream of but don't yet have. Avoid Analysis Paralysis. Start with something easy for your space and improve it later. Alan w6akb
Thanks, for the video! I just wanted to add that a reasonable compromise between a vertical and a horizontal dipole is the inverted V dipole! It requires only one tall center support, no radials, and provides a radiation pattern that is very omnidirectional. My favorite portable antenna is a five band inverted V dipole, with elements tuned for 40M, 20M, 17M, 15M, and 10M, using PVC spacers. I either use a portable military mast made up of green anodized aluminum pole sections with a tripod at the base that accepts the poles and guy wires to stabilize it (which provides a height of about 30ft), or I will use a sling shot to get a pull string over a branch in a tall tree that I can use to hoist the center of the antenna up higher in the air. Just feed it with coax! One of my favorite aspects of this antenna is that it requires no tuning! I can literally just select the desired band of operation and start calling CQ. It was also a relatively inexpensive and easy antenna to build! Another interesting characteristic of this antenna is that the proximity of the elements to each other tends to increase their bandwidth of operation.
Of like to hear about your sling shot .methodology... the branches in my trees are 45 ft off the ground, partially obstructed... and the first branches are at least 15 ft off the ground
Hi David! Time to say thank you! Yesterday I passed an exam for full HAM license, answering ALL questions! And this was possible in many ways because of your wonderful site and videos, for which I am very grateful. It is not only knowledge, but also the encouraging spirit of your lessons that really help. I hope we meet on the bands one day! And thank you so much! Alexei, Moscow, Russia (ex-RK3APF (novice), currently waiting for a new call sign).
I've been a Ham Radio Operator since 1960 trying out almost all of the popular antenna designs except the massive DX antennas used by the so called big boys. David is correct about which is best..Verticals or Dipoles. As he described it is not a simple answer. In my opinion more operators are using horizontal antennas and that may have some bearing on why, at say 1500 miles or less, dipoles to dipoles seem to work better than verticals to dipoles in general. Personally, I have always had better luck with the dipoles at a decent height above ground UNTIL I installed a HyGain HY-Tower Vertical with a massive ground system. 120 radials every 3 degrees amounting to over 4000 feet of wire under the ground. In addition I tied to two 150 foot copper water lines. Before I took down an 80 through 15 meter fan dipole at 70 feet I did some serious comparisons with the Hy-Tower. In a nut shell both antennas performed well for both DX and stateside contacts with the Vertical having an edge of about 1 to 2 db better on most signals but with an equal increase in noise of around 1.5 db. My noise limiters and DSP circuits usually removed most of the increased noise received on the vertical. For DX on 80 and 40 meters the Vertical was somewhat better than the dipole. On 20 meters my 4 element Yagi at 50 feet was usually 8 to 10 db better than both the dipole or vertical. Being in my 70's now the vertical at ground level is much easier and safe to manage than the high mounted dipoles. But the HyGain HyTower installed correctly with a very good ground system is very expensive and involves lots of time and labor to put it up. So again as David says: Which is better? Lots of factors to consider. No "simple" answer. 73...
Your very brave to take on such a controversial subject. All very good points and good pro/con of each. A co-worker once stated very accurately that "Antennas rival the Bible in misunderstanding in general..." Your videos go a long way towards removing the darkness. Keep up the good work! 73 de K4WRF....
Dave, I thought I would share a tidbit on vertical antennas I discovered. My home in a restricted HOA has foil backed roof decking which precluded me putting a dipole in the large attic. I mounted an exterior Diamond multi band vertical but getting a suitable ground plane was an issue until I discovered that I could use the foil backed roof decking as a ground plane. The 4’x8’ foil backed decking sections are connected using metal clips which creates a large ground plane with only one or two connections to the antenna. The antenna now works great. Another possible solution for getting on the air in a restricted HOA. Thanks a bunch for all your helpful videos.
Dave, I worked with various homebrew masts for years and they each had problems. Last summer I bought a 40 ft push up pole and it's made an amazing difference in my enjoyment of the hobby. It's sturdy, lite weight and easy to raise and lower.. Wish I'd done it years ago. My next purchase is a 50 ft push up. Thanks for all your videos. 73, Steve
I also have a Butternut antenna, a 6 band version. The 10 meter part is out of tune, but I can match up on 80,40,20,15,and 17. My antenna is on a 10 foot pole next to my moble home that is also 10 feet to the roof. I have the mast grounded and one wire 40 ft long that runs to my 2 meter tower and back into a woods behind the trailer.
Nice presentation Dave. I'm running a 1968 Mosley RV4-C, two trap, 4 band, ground mounted vertical with 4 ground radials at 90 degrees apart that are 3 inches underground. This antenna is a 10, 15, 20, and 40 meter antenna. It is 22 feet tall. It is fed with RG-8U Radio Shack coax. I've been running this antenna for over 10 years now. It tunes flat across the 4 bands with no antenna tuner.
Excellent video and explanation of both the horizontal dipole and the the vertical antenna. I'll direct new HAM's to this video for an answer to the very question. Thanks Dave!
How funny this recommended to me. I'm an Extra class amateur, licensed 45 years ago. But haven't used it since years of hang gliding in the 90's, my wife driving for myself and mates, herself licensed as technician, using 2 meters to communicate with us flying cross country. Still remember the long nights using at least 100 homemade antenna setups, mostly bottom of the band 40M CW running 4 watts talking with the world. A world away from now!
Thanks Dave, I face the same problem you do, no high trees and the tallest are Arborvitae so very soft and densely needled so a poor choice for support and even at their tallest they are about 25 feet. I have built a home made vertical at 20 meters and at least based on a first test I could hear folks as far west as Idaho and someone as far south as south Carolina. Appreciate all you do and was glad to see you're back on your feet again.
I have my vertical antenna up. No radials yet. Weather is not permitting me to run them. I took my MFJ 259C to see what the SWR was without the radials. >26:1. I need some good weather to lay out the radials. Thanks Dave for the video. KD4MAN 73s
Radials are down. 28 positions with multilength to each of them. All have at least one 62.5 feet. SWRs are improved to no more than 2.5:1 except for 10m & 6m. I have an external tuner. I am dealing with a lot of QRM. Not happy at all with the Alpha Antenna S9 vertical.
Very nice job. Thank you. Just earned my Extra. 2 months earlier earned my General, I had my tech since 92. I have taken a bit more interest in the Vertical vs Dipole after installing at least one of each. My first antenna was a vertical about 20ft in the air. It has been performing very well. I've made contacts 1/2 around the world with it @ 50w. I tried a 20m dipole in my attic, and the vertical easily out performed it. I finally put some fiberglass poles in the yard to hang at 20m dipole. I can do an inverted V, with the balun about 24ft in the air, the best I can do. End are about 12ft in the air. It performed well but not on lower bands, it's not resonating. I just don't hear traffic. I can hear traffic on the vertical that I do not hear on the 20m dipole on the lower bands. Both were equal on 20m. With pulleys on each pole, I can do swaps. I put an OCF up and now it competes with the vertical on all bands. My vertical is a simple 5/8w 10m sirio 2016. 73.
Found your channel and you really made me think. I do have a dipole and I'm lucky enough to get it over 66 feet.But you did answer my question about using a vertical. So I think I'll leave my dipole right where it's at and also put up a vertical. Thank you and 73. Ian, KN4TNT
I remember back in the 1960's and early 1970's, Hygain used to advertise that their vertically polarized CB antenna had greater gain that horizontal antennas. This was based on the 11 meter band and the then 20 foot antenna height limit. The theory was that horizontal antennas on that band, at that height, suffered greater ground loss than vertical antennas at the same height for the band. This made quad antennas and antennas with quad reflectors popular. The theory with those was, that when horizontally polarized, the quad acted as vertically stacked horizontal dipoles and while the bottom half suffered, SOME ground loss, but not all, the top half was shielded by the bottom half from ground loss. End fed half wave verticals are also said to suffer from ground loss at similar low heights, that quarter wave and 5/8 wave verticals with good counter poises do not. The theory is that end fed half wave antennas need similar height as horizontal dipoles to reduce ground loss and this may be as much as one full wave length above the ground.
The short answer is that “there’s no short answer”, are perfect words indeed 😅. I use this talking about a lot of things to my 13 year old son and he’s finally stopped to pause, contemplate, and then launch himself into all things radio and other stuff too. It’s saved his father a lot of money and frustration too!.
impecunious (meaning 'poor boy') hams should get what they can afford. radio club members usually have scraps of stuff to give or sell cheap- spare cable, ceramic insulators, etc. make a mono-band dipole. for $5 or less you can be on the air. i once got a used hy-gain multi-band vertical (av 14avq) for $20 and it worked for several years. most folks can't guess what antenna you are using. all that matters is getting a signal out, and getting one back. i love these videos! rodney kaØuse
I installed a Hustler 5BTV with (40) ground radials in my HOA neighborhood. Sometimes these wires were cut shorter than I cared to do, but put them down none-the-less. Used DX Engineering's version for the entire build (antenna purchased from, radial plate, tilt mount, etc). I've had a Cushcraft R7 & GAP Titan to compare it with. IMO, nothing compares to the Hustler. Yes, ground radials are work to install, but I get fantastic reports on this antenna, which I didn't get with the other two. I would highly recommend this product IF you are staying put a few years in your home.
scottym50 in addition to the ARRL manual and the awesome ke0og videos I'd also recommend the Android app called "ham test prep" my methodology was simply going through the entire test pool a few times and then looking at the study tab on the app. It will highlight where you're not getting it and then you can go back to those sections in the manual and in the videos. Also I recommend using the digital version of the manual. The nice thing about it is the question pool contains anchor links to the text and vice versa. So you can click the pool reference in the text and go right to the question or click the text reference next to the question and it instantly pans to the right page. Much faster than using bookmarks or tabs in a paper manual and flipping back and forth. A real time-saver.
Despite staring at radiation pattern graphs for a while now, I think this is the first video where I it finally clicked what the maximum radiation line meant. Thanks for posting! This was a helpful video. 73!
My brother when he was a Novice bought a Higain 18avt which he mounted on the roof of my mom's home, did good in DX he had radial wires for most of the bands but I later discovered there was none for the 80/75m band, when I became licensed at a General I used the same antenna and had many super dx contacts, I later bought a G5rv which was 102 ft in lenght and installed it on some montery pine trees. the hard part was climbing the tree as it was around 30ft tall
Vertical or dipole? Being torn apart by this dilemma I went for both in one! I have built myself a Carolina Windom and been using it for some 7 years in a row as my only HF antenna. It gave me thousands of QSO's and tons of fun! Thanks for the interesting presentation! 73! Linas LY2H
After hiatus. Getting back on line. At 67 trust me it was a chore.( Dipole) It was rewarding as I got Canadian s ,Columbians,new Yorkers and Californians. Haven't put a meter on it yet. However the home brew 80 meter receiver loves it. 73 de kv4li
This week I have spoken VK4 to East coast USA on 40m SSB using a centre fed half wave dipole inverted V at 7 meters height. Although inverted V with the ends at 3 meters, the antenna is facing NE / SW and worked a treat for making contact. I think a dipole is always better than a vertical but they both have their uses. NB : My point is that your dipole doesn't need to be up a half wave length to talk global DX.
Just a quick comment. A vertical can be a dipole. A dipole can be vertical. A dipole can be in any orientation you want it in. The real question to try and answer is the general question of whether a vertically polarized or a horizontally polarized antenna is better, and you pretty well discussed many of the pros and cons and variables between the 2. Which one is better in a given installation for a given purpose on a given band can only be answered by defining all of the variables in play, and there are a whole lot of them, which you pointed out quite well.
Thank you for a great and intuitive video. You got to the.point on most of it. You could have mentioned the hybrids between the dipole and vertical. 1. The vertical dipole. Very effective low angle radiation antenna, especially near the ocean where it just rocks. Does take some high supports for the low.bands though. Then we have the inverted V dipole. Only need the feed point up high as you can get. Gives a pattern.more similar to a vertical but require as much real estate area as no radials is needed. For vertical I would go with the Wet-Vertical. Probably the cheapest vs efficiency vertical antenna there is. But then, I am biased.
Nice video, however a few things to add: Even if you have only one moderately high support, such as one tall tree, you can make a nice vertical antenna. Actually, a vertical wire parallel to the tree trunk and supported by a pulley higher up in the tree works fine for the vertical element of a vertical antenna. For HF frequencies and moderate power levels, the wire does not even need to be spaced from the tree. (For one of my antennas, I use an insulated 43-foot vertical element, consisting of 16 gauge stranded, black insulated wire, from a few inches away from the tree trunk to touching the tree trunk.) A side benefit is that the antenna can be made virtually stealth by using black wire and black rope. Also, while up to a point, generally considered to be 32 radials, more radials at ground level (or slightly buried) tend to make a more effective antenna. Note, however, that with as few 4 ground level radials, the radial antenna can be quite effective. With 8 radials and 50 Watts CW output, 2 of my first 3 contacts on my new homemade ($0, as essentially all parts were from my junk box) vertical antenna were in France with a 579 on 20 meters and a 569 on 40 meters. This is with a 43 foot, non-resonant vertical, fed with 100 feet of junk-box RG6X, 75-Ohm coax, and an in-shack manual antenna tuner. With regard to the gauge of the wirefor radials, as you indicate, the current will be quite low. On the other hand, the wire should be thick enough to be physically robust and properly anchored along the path to the ground so that it can be walked on without tripping anyone or being severed. I believe 18-gauge black insulated wire works great,is very stealth and relatively inexpensive. In a grassy area, even moderately grassy, galvanized garden staples work great to fasten the radial wires to the ground, with spacing between 1 and 3 feet between staples 73, W0RCF
Inverted "v" is I all I can do with a small lot.and that is to say I found a piece of PVC pipe then draped the legs at the right angles and clipped to make the swr drop to it lowest number them trim to the frequency I play in 40 mtrs quick and dirty for my pixie 2 at 7.110 MHz you put in the work to get the max out of them: 468 divide frequency gives the ball park setting 73 my 2cent worth de kv4li keep up the good work om
I tend to go for a vertical dipole! Use the deliberate coax radiation technique for the lower half of the dipole by putting a sleeve-choke 1/4 wave down the coax. No radials required for it to work pretty well.
Thank you. Tall East coast pine trees shroud my home. Looking at a dipole at half or even a full wavelength up. Lightning is the one thing that scares me. I'm told Beverage antenna do not suffer from foliage as much. I'm hoping to use those for reception and a dipole for transmission. Yes that makes it difficult.
Hi David. Thanks for the overview. A couple of thoughts I've had: 1. Why not center-support a dipole,with traps even, and make it into an inverted-V? 2. Instead of radials, why not use a second vertical, to radiate the 2nd half of the wave? I'm guessing they should be some multiple of a wavelength apart. Hey, truckers do that. 3. For SWL only, wouldn't a long-wire do as well? Is length and tuning required, or just something to collect a lot of electrons (?) from the ether? I understand the latest thinking is that there is some medium in which radio and light travel. If so, why invent a new name for it? Is that a tip jar on your desk?
1. An inverted vee will perform about as well as a dipole, and will be a bit more omnidirectional. 2. I've never seen an antenna arrangement like that. It would be the equivalent of two phased verticals, would be directional, and would still require radials. 3. Yes, a long wire is fine for SWL. Some radios have an antenna tune control (consisting of a single capacitor) to tweak the impedance of the long wire a bit for the loudest signal 4. Yes, that's a tip jar. See ke0og.net/tip-jar.
@@davecasler: Thanks for the quick reply. One follow-up: What do truckers use for radials with their phased verticals? Do they just ground to the truck body as a sort of ground plane?
My own experience on the subject an Non-resonate vertical dipole fed with ladder line and a balanced tuner is my favorite it will cover 40m to 6m very cheap to build as well.
My first antenna was a homebrew 20m dipole hanging 13 high on a tree limb. I got Europe and Russia and a lot of the USA. I changed to an OCF at 30 feet high for years, until a tree killed it. I'm using a Par Quad EndFedz right now. I'm also going to make it a bit higher--40-45 feet.
My very first HF antenna was an Emcomm III set up in an inverted L configuration. Very first contact, from my QTH in OK, was California....my second? New York. I joked to my wife (who has her Tech license) that the new antenna was good for coast to coast 😁. Although it was pure coincidence, the two contacts were still amusing
If you need to assemble a higher pole for an antenna. you can weld steel fence posts or EMT tubing together. You just need to grind off the zinc (Galvanize) near the ends your are welding. You could probably weld 3 to 4 10 foot sections together. Alternatively, if you are machinist or have a friend machinist they can cut you some post inserts the fit inside the posts so you can joint multiple posts together.
I have a home-brew vert. for 40M. Mine is ground fed. 9 turns of 3mm wire, wound side/side as base loading coil. Then 4M as a vert. radiator. Two ground stakes and a load of wire under my paving slabs etc as radials. The 9turns gave me max sig. on RX, so I presumed it gives me max RF out on TX! It works well! Brian (Dover UK) M6 BAQ P.S. Rat tail back to ground co-ax (runs along ground) is about 12 inches. Made on stout poly water pipe and onto reinforced fence with car exhaust clamps!
I live on a small city lot. Therefore space is limited.. For years i used a multiband dipole with a center point up about 40 feet in a tree. The legs were sloped down in an inverted V configuration. It was a compromise but I worked people all over the world with it.
In my experience sloping the ends of a dipole acts like a modified vertical giving you a lower take off angle on transmit. Received signals were about the same. ymmv
I use a commercially built 5/8th wave center fed vertical Dipole which gets me over the air Worldwide with fantastic reports on 10/11 meters and a flat match almost across the entire band and the feedpoint is only 4'ft above ground. The antenna is made by Sirio in Italy. The antenna is a Gainmaster! Shipped, the antenna costs less than $200.
What many fail to remember a center fed dipole like the Sirio Gainmaster, obviously not for 40 meters. The antenna radiates mainly halfway up the antenna so you gain height that way. Verticals tend to radiate mainly neat the bottom. You can verify this by the patterns published online.
What about the discone or j-pole ? I just moved last summer and will be setting up a new antenna system. Being in a manafactured home in a senior park , no trees to use , limited ground space but , management seems lazzi fair about several issues however I don’t want to push my good fortune! I only run 2m/70cm through an old kenwood mobile rig which has two power settings 25 and 50 watts. A mast is doable but how high would it have to be to be effective ? Thanks Shane
Hi Dave, Over the years I have had a number of different antennas. I finally boiled it down to two and they are homebrewed. A vertical and a number of magnetic loops. My vertical is 31 feet tall and elevated five feet off the ground. It has one radial the same length and is fed with 450 ohm ladder line to a 4:1 balan. With an antenna tuner, I can work 80 through 10 meters. There are no traps of any kind, just 31 feet of aluminum tubing. It works great and I've been using it for years.
Dave, great video! I was faced with a small yard and a TV mast. I managed to get an 80m OCF sloper, with a 4:1 balun on it. The results were quite surprising. The 3905 net was good. I got all over the USA. I even got DX a time or two. Obviously, 1/2 w/l tall would be best.
David, I'm not a newcomer to amateur radio, having been licensed for 50+ years. I've applied myself diligently to antenna study and I see lots of myth and false info about antennas on UA-cam. I'll give you credit for the quality of your presentation in this video, and the almost totally factual info you present. However, you are plugging verticals that don't require radials and that isn't factually good, since they were dreamed up in the sales dept at the antenna manufacturers. If a person is content to ground mount a vertical and throw away half to 3/4 of the power they drive them with, then go the "no radial" route. Otherwise, at least put 16-24 radials under them. Some of us are willing to put more and I can personally tell you that 50-100 radials can really make a vertical perform. All in all, good job with this video.
The verticals that don't require radials are actual electrically end-fed half-wave vertical dipoles. I had an R5 for several years and had excellent results. Even so, they all have counterpoises to improve their results.
Uncle Dave I had the butternut antenna which is an amazing great antenna especially Iran about 200 radio would it and I put rock salt in Little Rock's around with a little trim around it in a circle and it performed flawlessly and I had the R8 cushcraft R8 and that antenna was amazing to it worked perfectly I think there's two antennas are exceptionally good I have not worked the vertical Hustler but I looked at 1 and I thought it was constructed real high-quality aircraft aluminum it was very strong and well made I gave Hustler a big hand on designing that antenna the only reason why I didn't buy it is because it didn't have 17m and I love 17 meter band so that's why I bought the butternut it took me over an hour and a half to put that Butternut together a little bit confusion but I finally did it but thank you for enlightening us on this subject of wire antennas and verticals thanks again my friend God bless from Atlanta Georgia
my 1st antenna was a Cushcraft AR-10 which I mounted one leg of a 20 ft tower (no top) 20 ft of antenna on 20 ft of tower I made my 1st 500 contacts on 10 meters as a tech. I got a ton of Europe. . FYI- I have a 20/40/80 rotatable dipole (MFJ 1785 ) at 45ft and it works great. This is probably another topic W9DLP
Dave, I just stumbled across your channel. The few I have watched are very well done. You remind me of my favorite science teacher. You are inspiring me to dig out my HF stuff from my shed and GOTA. 73 KI6GZK Don Dodson
great video, i agree that a dipole should be as high as possible but the center of my 20m dipole is 5m high and its ends are 1,6m high and i have made several contacts with stations up to 3.000km away and got good reports
This mainly pertains to 40 meters ! I think both can work practically equally well ! A efficiently coupled vertical or a dipole ! Personally I prefer horizontally polarized antennas ! But if I could not install a half wave dipole I would be looking at trying to build a efficient Vertical ! I bet if a man built a efficient vertical and and efficient Dipole in the same field , and had a switch to switch to switch between them ! He could spend a whole lot of time documenting the pros and cons of each and likely never come to a really strong conclusion ! Even that is not so easy ! To build a vertical and a dipole who both have equal chances at happiness in life :) My advice would be to get something up in the air ! Be it vertical or horizontal ! Study on getting it matched as best you can and get it as efficient as you can ! If you keep at it you are more likely than not to end up with a mighty fine antenna ! I recommend acquireing a copy of the ARRL antenna book I hardly care what year ! None of Theory actually goes stale ! I hold antenna modeling software , hurricane tracking software , global warming theory , and common core education just about the same place ! The Houston we have a problem ! sort of thing ! I would not bet the farm on either ! Ed Noll, W3FQJ Has a couple of really great books this one ! 73 VERTICAL/BEAMS/TRIANGLE ANTENNAS and this one ! 73 DIPOLE AND LONG-WIRE ANTENNAS You can buy either from the people who sell M ighty F ine J unk ! Some ops prefer Dipoles Some ops prefer Vertical Some ops prefer Coax Some ops prefer Balanced line Neither of these ops is any more wrong or ignorant than the other ! All these things have a purpose !
In my world, you put up what you can. And then despite any theory or planning/modeling software (I have used several over the years since computers entered my shack).....the best thing to do is to try it and see what happens. Trying it is Much More Meaningful than Math. An awful looking/poorly constructed antenna has proven me wrong more than once.
Once again, very well done Dave. I am quite interested in Beverage antennas for greater receiving abilities with much less noise. Do you plan to do an update on this antenna ?
I put up a 20M vertical dipole last week. It took me a while to get the SWR down to about 1.5:1 - That's about as good as it'll get, too. A dipole has a characteristic Z of 75 ohms in free space. Vertical approximates free space relative to a horizontal dipole pretty well (because of ground proximity on horizontal). I'm a purist and won't use a tuner (OK, I do - mainly as an antenna switch). I gotta be happy w/ 1.5:1 and above on 20M. My 80M and 40M NVIS's are fat dumb and happy at 1:1 center band).
Hi Dave: I recently got my tech and general ticket and have been following your explanations of antenna design and your lessons for taking the extra class exam. Question: my central reason for using HF is to communicate about 200 miles (or closer) and 1200 miles or more. It has been rough recently trying to get qso,s in NVIS on my 20/40 M dipole I can hear other station ( during gray-line) but never get a response..Any pointers? A dipole and a vertical? Long wire? Orientation? Thanks for your help and this amazing show you produce. Mark KJ7PVT
My first antenna was an old CB ground plane cut to 10 meter up a little better than 15 feet. With 12 Watts I worked Italy on 10 m. Good video 73. Jeff N9NJN
I haven't seen this addressed before: the area where my dipole antenna is installed is surrounded for the most part by close mountains and on a slope. My Q is: should I have the wire level to the ground or just level. I use my radio for mostly DX on HF (10-80). Keep up the excellent work!!
That's like asking what's better, an apple or an orange. Do what works. I'd start with level, but try both. A sloping dipole will have a pattern favoring the direction of the downward slope.
Hi Dave...Ever take a look at DX Commander Multi-Band Vertical antenna system here on youtube? You could brew one yourself as the concept is pretty easy. He does have all the length cuts available for such an endeavor. I have good luck with mine...80m-6m. West Coast to East Coast pretty easy. Thanks for your video.
Dave, As always with you, an excellent discussion, especially useful because it focuses on the compromises and “give-aways” of each type of antenna. I favor the non-radial vertical. Mine is a Comet CHA-250b, which actually a long wire end-fed antenna that looks and acts like a vertical but does not require radials. It also comes with a matching network built right on it, all part of the antenna you buy. Coiling the coax in six 12” loops about one foot from the feed point provides super control of reflection and some RFI noise, the kind you spoke about that is all too common with verticals. I have an advantage in my neighborhood. All utilities are underground - electrical, cable, street lighting, telephone, etc. One of the compromises of the Comet is its power handling capability. It tops out at 250W so if you’re a big amp power user, keep looking for another antenna!
I know this is an old video but... I've been away from HAM for a while. (No.. it wasn't prison ;-) ) I decided I was going to do the 13 colonies event this year, which led into thinking that I'd like to get back on the radio and get active again. I've got an Alpha-Delta DX-CC in the backyard suspended by two trees. In the last year or so, I swapped out my IC-7000 with the LGD 100 tuner and replaced it with the IC-7300 and internal tuner. Turns out, it's hard dialing in my antenna. (Sometimes, it even seems intermittent). I swapped out the 10 year old LMR-400 without a lot of luck. It was only ever maybe 20 ft off the ground in the middle. Over time, that's dropped to about 15 ft with the help of some branches growing on top of it, etc. I cut the branches off but they're still pretty close. The middle came back up to nearly 20 feet. Against my better judgement, I ordered a replacement DX-CC. I doubt it but maybe those coils are jacked up?? I did put the LDG back inline. It seems to tune better but I don't trust any of it at this point. Ultimately, I think I need to get some height and I'm going to revisit that. Not sure I can get 60 ft but.. I'll get it up as high as possible. Maybe I can. If I do, I need a way to raise and lower it. I am NOT prepared to take lightening. At it's current height, there are plenty of other ground rods in the area. But not at 60 ft. The other thing I'm a little concerned about is the directionality of the dipole. It runs almost exactly east/west which should give me good north/south. Generally, that's fine. But if I'm going to start talking more, I'm gonna wanna go west young man! I've been thinking about a vertical.. maybe as antenna 2. Man, looking at those though... even they're large. Really tall and big radials. Something to be said for VHF. How high to those verticals have to be off the ground? I mean.. obviously higher is better but I mean to work and tune up?
Nice, thanks for sharing the concept about antennas, what is the difference between Base Vertical Antenna and Ground Plane Antenna? i plan to use one of those for Low elevation angles passes of LEO Satellites. TnX 73!!
Great video and information. You mentioned what your mast is constructed for the dipole however you didn't mention what would be good mast material for the vertical. I'd assume that a metal mast would affect resonance and radiation. What would you recommend for a vertical antenna mast?
There may be too much emphasis here on low dipoles radiating "only" straight up and getting them half a wavelength up (very few installations have that much height on the lower bands). I have been testing a 40 meter dipole at 4 feet off the ground recently (after a support failed - it was a sloper with both horizontal and vertical characteristics), and it reached Japan as well as all over the US, Mexico and Hawaii using a few watts of FT8 (with no sunspots). It works much better than was expected. A low dipole is often better than some small commercial antennas that have significant loss, and a great deal lower in cost. The most important thing about an antenna is that you have something. The antenna you have is better than the antenna you dream of but don't yet have. Avoid Analysis Paralysis. Start with something easy for your space and improve it later.
Alan w6akb
Thanks, for the video!
I just wanted to add that a reasonable compromise between a vertical and a horizontal dipole is the inverted V dipole! It requires only one tall center support, no radials, and provides a radiation pattern that is very omnidirectional. My favorite portable antenna is a five band inverted V dipole, with elements tuned for 40M, 20M, 17M, 15M, and 10M, using PVC spacers. I either use a portable military mast made up of green anodized aluminum pole sections with a tripod at the base that accepts the poles and guy wires to stabilize it (which provides a height of about 30ft), or I will use a sling shot to get a pull string over a branch in a tall tree that I can use to hoist the center of the antenna up higher in the air. Just feed it with coax! One of my favorite aspects of this antenna is that it requires no tuning! I can literally just select the desired band of operation and start calling CQ. It was also a relatively inexpensive and easy antenna to build!
Another interesting characteristic of this antenna is that the proximity of the elements to each other tends to increase their bandwidth of operation.
Thanks for the info.
Thanks, helped me a lot!!! Just got in the ham radio so i am pretty new to the subject, thinking of building myself one now
Of like to hear about your sling shot .methodology... the branches in my trees are 45 ft off the ground, partially obstructed... and the first branches are at least 15 ft off the ground
Pp]
Hi David!
Time to say thank you! Yesterday I passed an exam for full HAM license, answering ALL questions! And this was possible in many ways because of your wonderful site and videos, for which I am very grateful. It is not only knowledge, but also the encouraging spirit of your lessons that really help. I hope we meet on the bands one day! And thank you so much!
Alexei, Moscow, Russia (ex-RK3APF (novice), currently waiting for a new call sign).
Alexei, congratulations on your upgrade. I'm delighted to hear my videos were of use to you.
"The short answer is... that there isn't a short answer." This is a great video. Thanks! You helped to answer my questions.
Short answer is long. lol
For someone so knowledgeable and experienced, you deserve a significant tower.
I've been a Ham Radio Operator since 1960 trying out almost all of the popular antenna designs except the massive DX antennas used by the so called big boys. David is correct about which is best..Verticals or Dipoles. As he described it is not a simple answer. In my opinion more operators are using horizontal antennas and that may have some bearing on why, at say 1500 miles or less, dipoles to dipoles seem to work better than verticals to dipoles in general. Personally, I have always had better luck with the dipoles at a decent height above ground UNTIL I installed a HyGain HY-Tower Vertical with a massive ground system. 120 radials every 3 degrees amounting to over 4000 feet of wire under the ground. In addition I tied to two 150 foot copper water lines. Before I took down an 80 through 15 meter fan dipole at 70 feet I did some serious comparisons with the Hy-Tower. In a nut shell both antennas performed well for both DX and stateside contacts with the Vertical having an edge of about 1 to 2 db better on most signals but with an equal increase in noise of around 1.5 db. My noise limiters and DSP circuits usually removed most of the increased noise received on the vertical. For DX on 80 and 40 meters the Vertical was somewhat better than the dipole. On 20 meters my 4 element Yagi at 50 feet was usually 8 to 10 db better than both the dipole or vertical. Being in my 70's now the vertical at ground level is much easier and safe to manage than the high mounted dipoles. But the HyGain HyTower installed correctly with a very good ground system is very expensive and involves lots of time and labor to put it up. So again as David says: Which is better? Lots of factors to consider. No "simple" answer. 73...
Interesting thanks :)
I appreciate that your videos for beginners are actually for beginners. So many intro videos assume a near engineering level of background. Thanks.
Antenna experiments - ALWAYS a fascinating subject of discussion. Thanks, Dave!
Your very brave to take on such a controversial subject. All very good points and good pro/con of each. A co-worker once stated very accurately that "Antennas rival the Bible in misunderstanding in general..." Your videos go a long way towards removing the darkness. Keep up the good work! 73 de K4WRF....
That's why I'm here, and I'm still not sure if it's me who misunderstands it or the other person.
Dave, I thought I would share a tidbit on vertical antennas I discovered. My home in a restricted HOA has foil backed roof decking which precluded me putting a dipole in the large attic. I mounted an exterior Diamond multi band vertical but getting a suitable ground plane was an issue until I discovered that I could use the foil backed roof decking as a ground plane. The 4’x8’ foil backed decking sections are connected using metal clips which creates a large ground plane with only one or two connections to the antenna. The antenna now works great. Another possible solution for getting on the air in a restricted HOA. Thanks a bunch for all your helpful videos.
Sounds like you've got a good solution for a difficult problem. Thanks for sharing your tip.
Dave, I worked with various homebrew masts for years and they each had problems. Last
summer I bought a 40 ft push up pole and it's made an amazing difference in my enjoyment
of the hobby. It's sturdy, lite weight and easy to raise and lower.. Wish I'd done it years ago.
My next purchase is a 50 ft push up. Thanks for all your videos. 73, Steve
Can you give me a link to where I can see the 40' pushup online? Where did you get it?
I know it's been 4 years - still could use that link!
I'm glad you did this Dave, thank you. 73!
I also have a Butternut antenna, a 6 band version. The 10 meter part is out of tune, but I can match up on 80,40,20,15,and 17. My antenna is on a 10 foot pole next to my moble home that is also 10 feet to the roof. I have the mast grounded and one wire 40 ft long that runs to my 2 meter tower and back into a woods behind the trailer.
Nice presentation Dave. I'm running a 1968 Mosley RV4-C, two trap, 4 band, ground mounted vertical with 4 ground radials at 90 degrees apart that are 3 inches underground. This antenna is a 10, 15, 20, and 40 meter antenna. It is 22 feet tall. It is fed with RG-8U Radio Shack coax. I've been running this antenna for over 10 years now. It tunes flat across the 4 bands with no antenna tuner.
Thanks Uncle David I as a new ham your videos are priceless
A very good presentation and no annoying background Muzak.
Excellent discussion and visual aids. Thanks Dave!
So how did this help you answer the question? He spend half an out to say neither is better, good luck with what ever one you use.....
@@stevemazz3121 If you know all the answers, why did you watch the video?
Excellent video and explanation of both the horizontal dipole and the the vertical antenna. I'll direct new HAM's to this video for an answer to the very question. Thanks Dave!
How funny this recommended to me. I'm an Extra class amateur, licensed 45 years ago. But haven't used it since years of hang gliding in the 90's, my wife driving for myself and mates, herself licensed as technician, using 2 meters to communicate with us flying cross country. Still remember the long nights using at least 100 homemade antenna setups, mostly bottom of the band 40M CW running 4 watts talking with the world. A world away from now!
I'm super stoked I found this channel..im a new subscriber...keep the good stuff coming God bless
Thanks Dave, I face the same problem you do, no high trees and the tallest are Arborvitae so very soft and densely needled so a poor choice for support and even at their tallest they are about 25 feet. I have built a home made vertical at 20 meters and at least based on a first test I could hear folks as far west as Idaho and someone as far south as south Carolina. Appreciate all you do and was glad to see you're back on your feet again.
Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪.
You just got yourself a new subscriber.
Great channel!
I have my vertical antenna up. No radials yet. Weather is not permitting me to run them. I took my MFJ 259C to see what the SWR was without the radials. >26:1. I need some good weather to lay out the radials. Thanks Dave for the video. KD4MAN 73s
Radials are down. 28 positions with multilength to each of them. All have at least one 62.5 feet. SWRs are improved to no more than 2.5:1 except for 10m & 6m. I have an external tuner. I am dealing with a lot of QRM. Not happy at all with the Alpha Antenna S9 vertical.
Very nice job. Thank you. Just earned my Extra. 2 months earlier earned my General, I had my tech since 92. I have taken a bit more interest in the Vertical vs Dipole after installing at least one of each. My first antenna was a vertical about 20ft in the air. It has been performing very well. I've made contacts 1/2 around the world with it @ 50w. I tried a 20m dipole in my attic, and the vertical easily out performed it. I finally put some fiberglass poles in the yard to hang at 20m dipole. I can do an inverted V, with the balun about 24ft in the air, the best I can do. End are about 12ft in the air. It performed well but not on lower bands, it's not resonating. I just don't hear traffic. I can hear traffic on the vertical that I do not hear on the 20m dipole on the lower bands. Both were equal on 20m. With pulleys on each pole, I can do swaps. I put an OCF up and now it competes with the vertical on all bands. My vertical is a simple 5/8w 10m sirio 2016. 73.
Good start! Now on to loops, rhombic, yagi, spiral wound and top hats, loading coils, and a few other more esoteric things! lol
J pole too
Dave the Great !
You sir are the best source of info iv come across
Wow, thanks!
Excellent! Very informative and well done. Thanks for taking the time to create and post this for us. Brum
great video......after getting my general...and learning the lingo...I actually understood your talk this time..
What about the HF 360 from Sigma Comm . In the UK, it’s a vertical!
Found your channel and you really made me think. I do have a dipole and I'm lucky enough to get it over 66 feet.But you did answer my question about using a vertical. So I think I'll leave my dipole right where it's at and also put up a vertical. Thank you and 73. Ian, KN4TNT
I remember back in the 1960's and early 1970's, Hygain used to advertise that their vertically polarized CB antenna had greater gain that horizontal antennas. This was based on the 11 meter band and the then 20 foot antenna height limit. The theory was that horizontal antennas on that band, at that height, suffered greater ground loss than vertical antennas at the same height for the band. This made quad antennas and antennas with quad reflectors popular. The theory with those was, that when horizontally polarized, the quad acted as vertically stacked horizontal dipoles and while the bottom half suffered, SOME ground loss, but not all, the top half was shielded by the bottom half from ground loss. End fed half wave verticals are also said to suffer from ground loss at similar low heights, that quarter wave and 5/8 wave verticals with good counter poises do not. The theory is that end fed half wave antennas need similar height as horizontal dipoles to reduce ground loss and this may be as much as one full wave length above the ground.
The short answer is that “there’s no short answer”, are perfect words indeed 😅. I use this talking about a lot of things to my 13 year old son and he’s finally stopped to pause, contemplate, and then launch himself into all things radio and other stuff too. It’s saved his father a lot of money and frustration too!.
Dave R8 cushcraft and butternut are my two favorite vertical antenna I had a lot of success with both those antenna 👍🌞👍
impecunious (meaning 'poor boy') hams should get what they can afford. radio club members usually have scraps of stuff to give or sell cheap- spare cable, ceramic insulators, etc. make a mono-band dipole. for $5 or less you can be on the air.
i once got a used hy-gain multi-band vertical (av 14avq) for $20 and it worked for several years.
most folks can't guess what antenna you are using. all that matters is getting a signal out, and getting one back.
i love these videos!
rodney kaØuse
When band conditions are good, just about anything works good for an antenna.
Great video - thanks. I'm making a 40 meter inverted v dipole this weekend using fence rail like yours. Wish me luck.
I installed a Hustler 5BTV with (40) ground radials in my HOA neighborhood. Sometimes these wires were cut shorter than I cared to do, but put them down none-the-less. Used DX Engineering's version for the entire build (antenna purchased from, radial plate, tilt mount, etc). I've had a Cushcraft R7 & GAP Titan to compare it with. IMO, nothing compares to the Hustler. Yes, ground radials are work to install, but I get fantastic reports on this antenna, which I didn't get with the other two. I would highly recommend this product IF you are staying put a few years in your home.
DE KG5LVK / AE just passed my extra exam thanks to you! Only missed 3 so a 94!
Lynwood Easterling. Good to hear that. I'm getting ready to take my Extra exam using his videos. I feel really good about passing with Dave's help.
scottym50 in addition to the ARRL manual and the awesome ke0og videos I'd also recommend the Android app called "ham test prep" my methodology was simply going through the entire test pool a few times and then looking at the study tab on the app. It will highlight where you're not getting it and then you can go back to those sections in the manual and in the videos. Also I recommend using the digital version of the manual. The nice thing about it is the question pool contains anchor links to the text and vice versa. So you can click the pool reference in the text and go right to the question or click the text reference next to the question and it instantly pans to the right page. Much faster than using bookmarks or tabs in a paper manual and flipping back and forth. A real time-saver.
Lynwood Easterling, thank you for that.
73
K5SFS
Dave you're a great teacher 🙂
Despite staring at radiation pattern graphs for a while now, I think this is the first video where I it finally clicked what the maximum radiation line meant. Thanks for posting! This was a helpful video. 73!
thanks for this video. I was toying with purchasing a dipole to add to my vertical (Hy-gain AV-640) and now I realize that I don't need it.
My brother when he was a Novice bought a Higain 18avt which he mounted on the roof of my mom's home, did good in DX he had radial wires for most of the bands but I later discovered there was none for the 80/75m band, when I became licensed at a General I used the same antenna and had many super dx contacts, I later bought a G5rv which was 102 ft in lenght and installed it on some montery pine trees. the hard part was climbing the tree as it was around 30ft tall
Vertical or dipole? Being torn apart by this dilemma I went for both in one! I have built myself a Carolina Windom and been using it for some 7 years in a row as my only HF antenna. It gave me thousands of QSO's and tons of fun! Thanks for the interesting presentation! 73! Linas LY2H
After hiatus. Getting back on line. At 67 trust me it was a chore.( Dipole) It was rewarding as I got Canadian s ,Columbians,new Yorkers and Californians. Haven't put a meter on it yet. However the home brew 80 meter receiver loves it. 73 de kv4li
This week I have spoken VK4 to East coast USA on 40m SSB using a centre fed half wave dipole inverted V at 7 meters height.
Although inverted V with the ends at 3 meters, the antenna is facing NE / SW and worked a treat for making contact.
I think a dipole is always better than a vertical but they both have their uses.
NB : My point is that your dipole doesn't need to be up a half wave length to talk global DX.
Absolutely true!
I like the HF mini-loop (yes.. I copped out )
Just a quick comment. A vertical can be a dipole. A dipole can be vertical. A dipole can be in any orientation you want it in. The real question to try and answer is the general question of whether a vertically polarized or a horizontally polarized antenna is better, and you pretty well discussed many of the pros and cons and variables between the 2. Which one is better in a given installation for a given purpose on a given band can only be answered by defining all of the variables in play, and there are a whole lot of them, which you pointed out quite well.
This is the best ask dave. and there are a lot of good ask daves.
Thank you for a great and intuitive video. You got to the.point on most of it.
You could have mentioned the hybrids between the dipole and vertical.
1. The vertical dipole. Very effective low angle radiation antenna, especially near the ocean where it just rocks. Does take some high supports for the low.bands though.
Then we have the inverted V dipole. Only need the feed point up high as you can get. Gives a pattern.more similar to a vertical but require as much real estate area as no radials is needed.
For vertical I would go with the Wet-Vertical. Probably the cheapest vs efficiency vertical antenna there is. But then, I am biased.
Just the info' I was looking for - thank you!
Nice video, however a few things to add:
Even if you have only one moderately high support, such as one tall tree, you can make a nice vertical antenna. Actually, a vertical wire parallel to the tree trunk and supported by a pulley higher up in the tree works fine for the vertical element of a vertical antenna. For HF frequencies and moderate power levels, the wire does not even need to be spaced from the tree. (For one of my antennas, I use an insulated 43-foot vertical element, consisting of 16 gauge stranded, black insulated wire, from a few inches away from the tree trunk to touching the tree trunk.) A side benefit is that the antenna can be made virtually stealth by using black wire and black rope. Also, while up to a point, generally considered to be 32 radials, more radials at ground level (or slightly buried) tend to make a more effective antenna. Note, however, that with as few 4 ground level radials, the radial antenna can be quite effective. With 8 radials and 50 Watts CW output, 2 of my first 3 contacts on my new homemade ($0, as essentially all parts were from my junk box) vertical antenna were in France with a 579 on 20 meters and a 569 on 40 meters. This is with a 43 foot, non-resonant vertical, fed with 100 feet of junk-box RG6X, 75-Ohm coax, and an in-shack manual antenna tuner. With regard to the gauge of the wirefor radials, as you indicate, the current will be quite low.
On the other hand, the wire should be thick enough to be physically robust and properly anchored
along the path to the ground so that it can be walked on without tripping anyone or being severed. I believe 18-gauge black insulated wire works great,is very stealth and relatively inexpensive. In a grassy area, even moderately grassy, galvanized garden staples work great to fasten the radial wires to the ground,
with spacing between 1 and 3 feet between staples
73,
W0RCF
As we get more mature, ground mounted verticals make much more sense :)
Thanks for this video, this explains a lot. I'm presently using an EFHW 40m - 10m and I have been debating putting up a OC Dipole or a vertical.
Inverted "v" is I all I can do with a small lot.and that is to say I found a piece of PVC pipe then draped the legs at the right angles and clipped to make the swr drop to it lowest number them trim to the frequency I play in 40 mtrs quick and dirty for my pixie 2 at 7.110 MHz you put in the work to get the max out of them: 468 divide frequency gives the ball park setting 73 my 2cent worth de kv4li keep up the good work om
Sir thank you for the excellent lecture. Hope to know the rule of thumb for the antenna feedpoints distance
I tend to go for a vertical dipole! Use the deliberate coax radiation technique for the lower half of the dipole by putting a sleeve-choke 1/4 wave down the coax. No radials required for it to work pretty well.
Thank you. Tall East coast pine trees shroud my home. Looking at a dipole at half or even a full wavelength up. Lightning is the one thing that scares me.
I'm told Beverage antenna do not suffer from foliage as much. I'm hoping to use those for reception and a dipole for transmission. Yes that makes it difficult.
Hi David. Thanks for the overview.
A couple of thoughts I've had:
1. Why not center-support a dipole,with traps even, and make it into an inverted-V?
2. Instead of radials, why not use a second vertical, to radiate the 2nd half of the wave? I'm guessing they should be some multiple of a wavelength apart. Hey, truckers do that.
3. For SWL only, wouldn't a long-wire do as well? Is length and tuning required, or just something to collect a lot of electrons (?) from the ether? I understand the latest thinking is that there is some medium in which radio and light travel. If so, why invent a new name for it?
Is that a tip jar on your desk?
1. An inverted vee will perform about as well as a dipole, and will be a bit more omnidirectional. 2. I've never seen an antenna arrangement like that. It would be the equivalent of two phased verticals, would be directional, and would still require radials. 3. Yes, a long wire is fine for SWL. Some radios have an antenna tune control (consisting of a single capacitor) to tweak the impedance of the long wire a bit for the loudest signal 4. Yes, that's a tip jar. See ke0og.net/tip-jar.
@@davecasler: Thanks for the quick reply.
One follow-up: What do truckers use for radials with their phased verticals? Do they just ground to the truck body as a sort of ground plane?
My own experience on the subject an Non-resonate vertical dipole fed with ladder line and a balanced tuner is my favorite it will cover 40m to 6m very cheap to build as well.
When combined with the feedline and tuner, the combination resonates nicely. That's the nice thing about ladder line and wide-range tuners.
My first antenna was a homebrew 20m dipole hanging 13 high on a tree limb. I got Europe and Russia and a lot of the USA. I changed to an OCF at 30 feet high for years, until a tree killed it. I'm using a Par Quad EndFedz right now. I'm also going to make it a bit higher--40-45 feet.
This gentleman is Steve Woz of Amateur Radio! 🙌🌸❤️
Dude! I couldn't remember who he reminded me of. Thank you!
My very first HF antenna was an Emcomm III set up in an inverted L configuration. Very first contact, from my QTH in OK, was California....my second? New York. I joked to my wife (who has her Tech license) that the new antenna was good for coast to coast 😁. Although it was pure coincidence, the two contacts were still amusing
If you need to assemble a higher pole for an antenna. you can weld steel fence posts or EMT tubing together. You just need to grind off the zinc (Galvanize) near the ends your are welding. You could probably weld 3 to 4 10 foot sections together.
Alternatively, if you are machinist or have a friend machinist they can cut you some post inserts the fit inside the posts so you can joint multiple posts together.
I have a home-brew vert. for 40M. Mine is ground fed. 9 turns of 3mm wire, wound side/side as base loading coil. Then 4M as a vert. radiator. Two ground stakes and a load of wire under my paving slabs etc as radials. The 9turns gave me max sig. on RX, so I presumed it gives me max RF out on TX! It works well!
Brian
(Dover UK)
M6 BAQ
P.S. Rat tail back to ground co-ax (runs along ground) is about 12 inches.
Made on stout poly water pipe and onto reinforced fence with car exhaust clamps!
Nice breakdown of the values of each. Thanks and 73
Great explanation. Thanks.
I live on a small city lot. Therefore space is limited.. For years i used a multiband dipole with a center point up about 40 feet in a tree. The legs were sloped down in an inverted V configuration. It was a compromise but I worked people all over the world with it.
In my experience sloping the ends of a dipole acts like a modified vertical giving you a lower take off angle on transmit. Received signals were about the same. ymmv
I use a commercially built 5/8th wave center fed vertical Dipole which gets me over the air Worldwide with fantastic reports on 10/11 meters and a flat match almost across the entire band and the feedpoint is only 4'ft above ground. The antenna is made by Sirio in Italy. The antenna is a Gainmaster! Shipped, the antenna costs less than $200.
Rumor has it Dave is a good singer if he comes out with a dvd ill buy one !! kg6mn
Thank you for the information
What many fail to remember a center fed dipole like the Sirio Gainmaster, obviously not for 40 meters.
The antenna radiates mainly halfway up the antenna so you gain height that way. Verticals tend to radiate mainly neat the bottom. You can verify this by the patterns published online.
Thank you, again Dave.
What about the discone or j-pole ? I just moved last summer and will be setting up a new antenna system. Being in a manafactured home in a senior park , no trees to use , limited ground space but , management seems lazzi fair about several issues however I don’t want to push my good fortune! I only run 2m/70cm through an old kenwood mobile rig which has two power settings 25 and 50 watts. A mast is doable but how high would it have to be to be effective ? Thanks Shane
The video is about HF. For VHF, the J pole or the discone are the way to go.
Hi Dave, Over the years I have had a number of different antennas. I finally boiled it down to two and they are homebrewed. A vertical and a number of magnetic loops. My vertical is 31 feet tall and elevated five feet off the ground. It has one radial the same length and is fed with 450 ohm ladder line to a 4:1 balan. With an antenna tuner, I can work 80 through 10 meters. There are no traps of any kind, just 31 feet of aluminum tubing. It works great and I've been using it for years.
Dave, great video! I was faced with a small yard and a TV mast. I managed to get an 80m OCF sloper, with a 4:1 balun on it. The results were quite surprising. The 3905 net was good. I got all over the USA. I even got DX a time or two. Obviously, 1/2 w/l tall would be best.
Good show. How about one on multiband inverted Vee?
David, I'm not a newcomer to amateur radio, having been licensed for 50+ years. I've applied myself diligently to antenna study and I see lots of myth and false info about antennas on UA-cam. I'll give you credit for the quality of your presentation in this video, and the almost totally factual info you present. However, you are plugging verticals that don't require radials and that isn't factually good, since they were dreamed up in the sales dept at the antenna manufacturers. If a person is content to ground mount a vertical and throw away half to 3/4 of the power they drive them with, then go the "no radial" route. Otherwise, at least put 16-24 radials under them. Some of us are willing to put more and I can personally tell you that 50-100 radials can really make a vertical perform. All in all, good job with this video.
The verticals that don't require radials are actual electrically end-fed half-wave vertical dipoles. I had an R5 for several years and had excellent results. Even so, they all have counterpoises to improve their results.
@@davecasler Excellent results, compared to what? Believe what you will. Verticals aren't as efficient without radials, even half wave verticals.
Uncle Dave I had the butternut antenna which is an amazing great antenna especially Iran about 200 radio would it and I put rock salt in Little Rock's around with a little trim around it in a circle and it performed flawlessly and I had the R8 cushcraft R8 and that antenna was amazing to it worked perfectly I think there's two antennas are exceptionally good I have not worked the vertical Hustler but I looked at 1 and I thought it was constructed real high-quality aircraft aluminum it was very strong and well made I gave Hustler a big hand on designing that antenna the only reason why I didn't buy it is because it didn't have 17m and I love 17 meter band so that's why I bought the butternut it took me over an hour and a half to put that Butternut together a little bit confusion but I finally did it but thank you for enlightening us on this subject of wire antennas and verticals thanks again my friend God bless from Atlanta Georgia
Thank you David for your help!😊
Needing out watching antenna videos nice work
my 1st antenna was a Cushcraft AR-10 which I mounted one leg of a 20 ft tower (no top)
20 ft of antenna on 20 ft of tower I made my 1st 500 contacts on 10 meters as a tech. I got a ton of Europe. . FYI- I have a 20/40/80 rotatable dipole (MFJ 1785 ) at 45ft and it works great. This is probably another topic
W9DLP
Dave,
I just stumbled across your channel. The few I have watched are very well done. You remind me of my favorite science teacher. You are inspiring me to dig out my HF stuff from my shed and GOTA. 73 KI6GZK Don Dodson
great video, i agree that a dipole should be as high as possible but the center of my 20m dipole is 5m high and its ends are 1,6m high and i have made several contacts with stations up to 3.000km away and got good reports
Sounds like you've got a good working installation there.
This mainly pertains to 40 meters !
I think both can work practically equally well ! A efficiently coupled vertical or a dipole ! Personally I prefer horizontally polarized antennas ! But if I could not install a half wave dipole I would be looking at trying to build a efficient Vertical ! I bet if a man built a efficient vertical and and efficient Dipole in the same field , and had a switch to switch to switch between them ! He could spend a whole lot of time documenting the pros and cons of each and likely never come to a really strong conclusion ! Even that is not so easy ! To build a vertical and a dipole who both have equal chances at happiness in life :) My advice would be to get something up in the air ! Be it vertical or horizontal ! Study on getting it matched as best you can and get it as efficient as you can ! If you keep at it you are more likely than not to end up with a mighty fine antenna ! I recommend acquireing a copy of the ARRL antenna book I hardly care what year ! None of Theory actually goes stale !
I hold antenna modeling software , hurricane tracking software , global warming theory , and common core education just about the same place ! The Houston we have a problem ! sort of thing ! I would not bet the farm on either !
Ed Noll, W3FQJ Has a couple of really great books this one ! 73 VERTICAL/BEAMS/TRIANGLE ANTENNAS
and this one ! 73 DIPOLE AND LONG-WIRE ANTENNAS You can buy either from the people who sell M ighty F ine J unk !
Some ops prefer Dipoles
Some ops prefer Vertical
Some ops prefer Coax
Some ops prefer Balanced line
Neither of these ops is any more wrong or ignorant than the other ! All these things have a purpose !
In my world, you put up what you can. And then despite any theory or planning/modeling software (I have used several over the years since computers entered my shack).....the best thing to do is to try it and see what happens. Trying it is Much More Meaningful than Math. An awful looking/poorly constructed antenna has proven me wrong more than once.
Once again, very well done Dave. I am quite interested in Beverage antennas for greater receiving abilities with much less noise. Do you plan to do an update on this antenna ?
I don't have room to put up a proper Beverage antenna. I have a buddy who has 40 acres--maybe he'll let me try there.
I put up a 20M vertical dipole last week. It took me a while to get the SWR down to about 1.5:1 - That's about as good as it'll get, too. A dipole has a characteristic Z of 75 ohms in free space. Vertical approximates free space relative to a horizontal dipole pretty well (because of ground proximity on horizontal). I'm a purist and won't use a tuner (OK, I do - mainly as an antenna switch). I gotta be happy w/ 1.5:1 and above on 20M. My 80M and 40M NVIS's are fat dumb and happy at 1:1 center band).
What about loop antennas? 😉👍
Thank you! Excellent video!
Hi Dave: I recently got my tech and general ticket and have been following your explanations of antenna design and your lessons for taking the extra class exam. Question: my central reason for using HF is to communicate about 200 miles (or closer) and 1200 miles or more. It has been rough recently trying to get qso,s in NVIS on my 20/40 M dipole I can hear other station ( during gray-line) but never get a response..Any pointers? A dipole and a vertical? Long wire? Orientation? Thanks for your help and this amazing show you produce. Mark KJ7PVT
Thank you David, this was very educational.
My first antenna was an old CB ground plane cut to 10 meter up a little better than 15 feet. With 12 Watts I worked Italy on 10 m.
Good video
73. Jeff N9NJN
Very interesting and thought provoking
I haven't seen this addressed before: the area where my dipole antenna is installed is surrounded for the most part by close mountains and on a slope. My Q is: should I have the wire level to the ground or just level. I use my radio for mostly DX on HF (10-80). Keep up the excellent work!!
That's like asking what's better, an apple or an orange. Do what works. I'd start with level, but try both. A sloping dipole will have a pattern favoring the direction of the downward slope.
Thanks for the wonderful content Dave!
Hi Dave...Ever take a look at DX Commander Multi-Band Vertical antenna system here on youtube? You could brew one yourself as the concept is pretty easy. He does have all the length cuts available for such an endeavor. I have good luck with mine...80m-6m. West Coast to East Coast pretty easy. Thanks for your video.
Dave, As always with you, an excellent discussion, especially useful because it focuses on the compromises and “give-aways” of each type of antenna. I favor the non-radial vertical. Mine is a Comet CHA-250b, which actually a long wire end-fed antenna that looks and acts like a vertical but does not require radials. It also comes with a matching network built right on it, all part of the antenna you buy. Coiling the coax in six 12” loops about one foot from the feed point provides super control of reflection and some RFI noise, the kind you spoke about that is all too common with verticals. I have an advantage in my neighborhood. All utilities are underground - electrical, cable, street lighting, telephone, etc. One of the compromises of the Comet is its power handling capability. It tops out at 250W so if you’re a big amp power user, keep looking for another antenna!
I know this is an old video but... I've been away from HAM for a while. (No.. it wasn't prison ;-) ) I decided I was going to do the 13 colonies event this year, which led into thinking that I'd like to get back on the radio and get active again. I've got an Alpha-Delta DX-CC in the backyard suspended by two trees. In the last year or so, I swapped out my IC-7000 with the LGD 100 tuner and replaced it with the IC-7300 and internal tuner. Turns out, it's hard dialing in my antenna. (Sometimes, it even seems intermittent). I swapped out the 10 year old LMR-400 without a lot of luck. It was only ever maybe 20 ft off the ground in the middle. Over time, that's dropped to about 15 ft with the help of some branches growing on top of it, etc. I cut the branches off but they're still pretty close. The middle came back up to nearly 20 feet. Against my better judgement, I ordered a replacement DX-CC. I doubt it but maybe those coils are jacked up??
I did put the LDG back inline. It seems to tune better but I don't trust any of it at this point.
Ultimately, I think I need to get some height and I'm going to revisit that. Not sure I can get 60 ft but.. I'll get it up as high as possible. Maybe I can. If I do, I need a way to raise and lower it. I am NOT prepared to take lightening. At it's current height, there are plenty of other ground rods in the area. But not at 60 ft.
The other thing I'm a little concerned about is the directionality of the dipole. It runs almost exactly east/west which should give me good north/south. Generally, that's fine. But if I'm going to start talking more, I'm gonna wanna go west young man! I've been thinking about a vertical.. maybe as antenna 2. Man, looking at those though... even they're large. Really tall and big radials. Something to be said for VHF. How high to those verticals have to be off the ground? I mean.. obviously higher is better but I mean to work and tune up?
Nice, thanks for sharing the concept about antennas, what is the difference between Base Vertical Antenna and Ground Plane Antenna? i plan to use one of those for Low elevation angles passes of LEO Satellites.
TnX 73!!
Great video and information. You mentioned what your mast is constructed for the dipole however you didn't mention what would be good mast material for the vertical. I'd assume that a metal mast would affect resonance and radiation. What would you recommend for a vertical antenna mast?
Usually verticals are made from aluminum tubing. If you have a high tree, you can hang a wire vertical from it.