Interesting thoughts about steel lock inserts, John. I think one contributing factor, aside from material properties, is that because steel on steel interfaces don't require such severe tang angles due to their great wear characteristics, it requires less force to "slide up" that angle. But that shallow angle also prevents lock slip to the unlocked position. BTW, I would add Lionsteel to the list of steel on steel locks that don't have this characteristic. I've handled several -- all solid.
There are very many pratical uses that can result in compressive forces on a blade.. Just one I experience today - making feather sticks on a particularly hard piece of wood. Blade got stuck, and I attempted to pull the blade out, which took a surprising amount of force. Without a strong lock, there could have been some hurt fingers.
Not to any measurable degree. Their method of carburizing (not carbidizing, different method) only leaves a very thin hardened layer on top of the Ti. Below is still the same soft substrate. It may increase the sheer strength a tiny bit, but not enough to make a difference in a scenario like this. :)
An all steel lock bar normally doesn't exhibit the same behavior. Most of the play is coming from compression of the Ti lock bar. It flexes just enough to allow the lock bar to travel across the tang. An all steel lock bar is much more resistant to that flex. :)
Wow, ZT seems to be putting a LOT of money into making their knives look nice, and have expensive materials.. Yet not a lot of time on making sure their lock geometry is perfect like they should, and making sure their fit is up to par with knives even a 3rd of their cost.
Steel inserted lock face is just a fail innovation, will you trade the wearing issue with safety? Steel on steel has much less friction than steel on titanium and will much more prone to disengage when getting any impact force. I have seen many frame lock with steel inserted fail by just some lightly spine wrack.
In the late nineties, early 2000's there were complaints about liners/integrals suffering slop (vertical play) due to premature wear. To combat this makers/manufacturers started setting locks to just barely engage to give them the longest lifetime/wear. The downside is that if you just barely engage the strength is extremely low. Thus that was abandoned and other methods were used to slow down wear by directly modifying the lock face (application of carbide, inserts, etc.).
It is possible to get adhesive/galling on steel inserts, you just need to pick a steel which matches the blade. For example D2 will gall readily against stainless steels due to the matching very high chromium content. M2 for example would not. I am not sure relying on galling as lock security is a good thing though.
It isn't overly difficult, I have done it before by simple rotation. I cracked off a piece of the lock on the early Buck/Strider production folder for example. You just have to consider that as the blade contact gets much smaller the force required for shear is also reduced.
I was able to pushed as hard as I physically could on the lock bar on my Spyderco Tuff (which has a steel insert) and I could only get it to about 55%, and that is only 5% from the regular 50%. So I think Spyderco got the geometry right also. I am glad to hear that the Elmax is holding an edge. That was the only thing I found iffy about the 801. I may get one at some point, I really like the look of it, and I have yet to own a ZT or any Elmax.
If I may ask, then... what exactly do you attribute that failure to? Abuse/mishandling on your part? Flawed design on the part of Buck? Use of an inadequate material for a lockbar? What I mean to say is, if lock shearing is really this big of an issue, it seems to me that something aught to be to blame, and be addressed. I don't own, nor have ever owned, a ti framelock for a number of reasons, one being a doubt that it is the right material for the job... so this is a genuine curiosity to me.
I haven't the video of Kyley's that you have referenced here, so I may be wrong here, but it sounds like he had to take a step beyond abuse to make the shearing happen. I can't imagine you'd see the same amount of force when yanking the a knife out of some wood, improper techniques not withstanding. I'm sure there are some uses that I haven't fully considered that would apply undue force to the spine, but enough force to shear a lockface? That is something I just can't fathom outside of abuse.
(part 2) That isn't to say I've chosen to make myself well-informed on the subject. Maybe self defense is indeed the one and only concern here. If so, rock on! More to the point, though, if we are dealing purely in the hypothetical, I think we can come up with some juicier topics than this. Anti-zombie knives is always a fun one, as is keeping rust off an H1 blade. I'm not trying to poke fun or troll... I'm just sayin' that, to me, this concern is a bit of an odd one.
"It doesn't matter what is causing that load..." While I don't necessarily disagree with the overarching point here, I can't help but wonder what practical application anyone would have for a knife that would exhibit this kind of force on the blade. After factoring out everything that could simply be resolved by, "just don't abuse your knife" I am left with exactly one legitimate concern... self defense. That said, it is something I've never heard cited as the reason for these discussions.
I've got the new Domino, and it has the steel lockbar insert. I can't press the lock bar over at all. Good sign I'd say. Pick one up when you get the chance. They're fantastic. Haven't used it hard/long enough to comment on the steel performance but the build Quality/F&F are fantastic. Can't go wrong with Taichung Spydercos!
Great video! Well put together and well presented! I'm impressed enough to subscribe and watch some of your older videos. ....Wow, just when I though I had already found all the good knife channels....
You have something else going on there with your lock. I have a cheap old Kershaw OD1 framelock that will not budge a fraction when I push with all my force. I suspect a small movement in the blade stop .
Just tried it on my Southard, I could only move it a tiny bit and I felt the galling effect when I unlocked it. I couldn't get it to move nearly as far as John did with the ZT.
hmmm, a lot of people complain about the lock sticking, and then some actually WANT it to stick. Man, I'd hate to be the person that makes the decision on who to please.
Yep, the Microtechs I have, particularly the d.o.c, are almost impossible to move the lock over, I think it has to do with the size of the cutout on the lock bar.
I dont understand the obsession with early lock up. With the insert you should be able to have the lock bar all the way over for complete tang and lock bar interaction
Excellent video. You really need to come back to YT Knife community and make videos again. Very informative.
Interesting thoughts about steel lock inserts, John. I think one contributing factor, aside from material properties, is that because steel on steel interfaces don't require such severe tang angles due to their great wear characteristics, it requires less force to "slide up" that angle. But that shallow angle also prevents lock slip to the unlocked position. BTW, I would add Lionsteel to the list of steel on steel locks that don't have this characteristic. I've handled several -- all solid.
There are very many pratical uses that can result in compressive forces on a blade..
Just one I experience today - making feather sticks on a particularly hard piece of wood. Blade got stuck, and I attempted to pull the blade out, which took a surprising amount of force. Without a strong lock, there could have been some hurt fingers.
Not to any measurable degree. Their method of carburizing (not carbidizing, different method) only leaves a very thin hardened layer on top of the Ti. Below is still the same soft substrate.
It may increase the sheer strength a tiny bit, but not enough to make a difference in a scenario like this. :)
An all steel lock bar normally doesn't exhibit the same behavior. Most of the play is coming from compression of the Ti lock bar. It flexes just enough to allow the lock bar to travel across the tang. An all steel lock bar is much more resistant to that flex. :)
Wow, ZT seems to be putting a LOT of money into making their knives look nice, and have expensive materials.. Yet not a lot of time on making sure their lock geometry is perfect like they should, and making sure their fit is up to par with knives even a 3rd of their cost.
It is somewhat normal, if you consider normal as very common. I don't like it, but I do consider it somewhat normal also.
No. It is an all Ti lock bar, so it isn't really subject to this. But still the answer is no, I can't push mine over. :)
Steel inserted lock face is just a fail innovation, will you trade the wearing issue with safety? Steel on steel has much less friction than steel on titanium and will much more prone to disengage when getting any impact force. I have seen many frame lock with steel inserted fail by just some lightly spine wrack.
In the late nineties, early 2000's there were complaints about liners/integrals suffering slop (vertical play) due to premature wear. To combat this makers/manufacturers started setting locks to just barely engage to give them the longest lifetime/wear. The downside is that if you just barely engage the strength is extremely low. Thus that was abandoned and other methods were used to slow down wear by directly modifying the lock face (application of carbide, inserts, etc.).
It is possible to get adhesive/galling on steel inserts, you just need to pick a steel which matches the blade. For example D2 will gall readily against stainless steels due to the matching very high chromium content. M2 for example would not. I am not sure relying on galling as lock security is a good thing though.
It isn't overly difficult, I have done it before by simple rotation. I cracked off a piece of the lock on the early Buck/Strider production folder for example. You just have to consider that as the blade contact gets much smaller the force required for shear is also reduced.
I was able to pushed as hard as I physically could on the lock bar on my Spyderco Tuff (which has a steel insert) and I could only get it to about 55%, and that is only 5% from the regular 50%. So I think Spyderco got the geometry right also.
I am glad to hear that the Elmax is holding an edge. That was the only thing I found iffy about the 801. I may get one at some point, I really like the look of it, and I have yet to own a ZT or any Elmax.
If I may ask, then... what exactly do you attribute that failure to? Abuse/mishandling on your part? Flawed design on the part of Buck? Use of an inadequate material for a lockbar?
What I mean to say is, if lock shearing is really this big of an issue, it seems to me that something aught to be to blame, and be addressed.
I don't own, nor have ever owned, a ti framelock for a number of reasons, one being a doubt that it is the right material for the job... so this is a genuine curiosity to me.
I haven't the video of Kyley's that you have referenced here, so I may be wrong here, but it sounds like he had to take a step beyond abuse to make the shearing happen. I can't imagine you'd see the same amount of force when yanking the a knife out of some wood, improper techniques not withstanding.
I'm sure there are some uses that I haven't fully considered that would apply undue force to the spine, but enough force to shear a lockface? That is something I just can't fathom outside of abuse.
(part 2)
That isn't to say I've chosen to make myself well-informed on the subject. Maybe self defense is indeed the one and only concern here. If so, rock on!
More to the point, though, if we are dealing purely in the hypothetical, I think we can come up with some juicier topics than this. Anti-zombie knives is always a fun one, as is keeping rust off an H1 blade. I'm not trying to poke fun or troll... I'm just sayin' that, to me, this concern is a bit of an odd one.
"It doesn't matter what is causing that load..."
While I don't necessarily disagree with the overarching point here, I can't help but wonder what practical application anyone would have for a knife that would exhibit this kind of force on the blade. After factoring out everything that could simply be resolved by, "just don't abuse your knife" I am left with exactly one legitimate concern... self defense. That said, it is something I've never heard cited as the reason for these discussions.
I've got the new Domino, and it has the steel lockbar insert. I can't press the lock bar over at all. Good sign I'd say. Pick one up when you get the chance. They're fantastic. Haven't used it hard/long enough to comment on the steel performance but the build Quality/F&F are fantastic. Can't go wrong with Taichung Spydercos!
Great video! Well put together and well presented! I'm impressed enough to subscribe and watch some of your older videos. ....Wow, just when I though I had already found all the good knife channels....
You have something else going on there with your lock. I have a cheap old Kershaw OD1 framelock that will not budge a fraction when I push with all my force. I suspect a small movement in the blade stop .
Sure! My email server is all fixed up now. Email addy is in the description.
Just tried it on my Southard, I could only move it a tiny bit and I felt the galling effect when I unlocked it. I couldn't get it to move nearly as far as John did with the ZT.
hmmm, a lot of people complain about the lock sticking, and then some actually WANT it to stick. Man, I'd hate to be the person that makes the decision on who to please.
Yep, the Microtechs I have, particularly the d.o.c, are almost impossible to move the lock over, I think it has to do with the size of the cutout on the lock bar.
Eek, I can push the lockbars over in both my Whaleshark and Delta. I assumed this was normal due to the almost horizontal lockface.
I dont understand the obsession with early lock up. With the insert you should be able to have the lock bar all the way over for complete tang and lock bar interaction
John: What about hardening the Ti like CRK does, would that help to improve the sheer strength of the metal.?
I haven't heard anything but good things about this knife notwithstanding the potential issues this youtuber brought up.
Hey bro, haven't forgotten about you. Email inbound.
Thanks for the vid. I am edc'n mine now and will hopefully get a review up soon
Kind of off topic, but what are your thoughts on Axis Locking from BM?
FYI: metal atoms don't form molecules among themselves.
Informative. Thank you. Mine arrives any day.
Are you able to push over the lockbar on your Spyderco Southard?
mine came in S35vn and the lock works great.
How do you feel about CRK's ceramic ball interface?
Can having 100% lockup bend the lockbar over time?
I'd like to. :)
Same with my Tuff :) Yeah Taichung has it down.
Could I email you about knife making sometime?
Of course!
Everything is better with a montage.... lol
Thank you for your thoughts on this knife.
Thanks for the heads up, much appreciated.
I can't push my lockbar over on my 801...
i really like your reviews brother!!!!
steel lock bars stick as well
Good job john!
My mistake.
nice
offer to cut there lumber. really give that bad boy a test.
Great vid again John. Seems that ZT got their issues with ELMAX HT and grinding under control, at least from these Rexfords I have seen.