Hydraulic Handbrakes for Rally, Rallycross, and Drift Cars
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- A hydraulic handbrake is excellent addition to any rally car, drift car, off road race truck, or any other vehicle where rotating sideways into corners is an advantage. While hydraulic handbrakes might seem complex at first glance, they're actually very simple and can be installed by anyone with some basic mechanical skills. Join us as we take a look at hydraulic handbrake systems here at the Rally School in northern NH.
Fundamentally, a hydraulic handbrake is just a brake master cylinder with a handle attached to it instead of a foot pedal. This setup is typically installed in the middle of the normal rear brake circuit, so that the handbrake only operates on the rear wheels. For all of the details about hydraulic handbrake setup and installation, tune in to this quick video... and if you have any questions, suggestions, or just want to say hi, we look forward to hearing from you in the comment section!
How to do handbrake turns: • How to do Handbrake Turns
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You mentioned making a video about different brake biases, that would be great, please do
Just a word of advice. I feel like at least briefly mentioning that AWD cars need some kind of center dif release for this to work is important. Someone is gonna put this on an AWD car with no way to separate the rear drive terrain and it's not gonna end well.
Yes definitely should have been mentioned, there are a lot of AWD cars that you'd be OK in, but definitely some that it won't work at all and/or you'll grenade the center coupling. It's probably worth it's own little video at some point.
@@Teamoneilrally Yeah this is what my comment was about. Would be super handy to see how they're put together.
More tech stuff, Yes please!!!!
And how to set up a rally car (tarmac, gravel, snow) stuff
5:00 Ah so that's how the brake bias gets adjusted. Thanks!
Not really. Those valves are pressure limiters that for the most part activate near the top setting. Not the same thing as proper brake bias adjustment where you do still have more braking force available if you pull / press harder.
Please do a whole video on Brake Balance! something more technical.
The problem is that true brake balance adjustment requires pretty much real racing brakes and not just this pressure limiter.
I have hydro-e in my volvo 240. I went the easy route and just installed dual calipers and damn I love to have that when I'm drifting!
How did you do that on your rear axle, did you weld a bracket? Thinking about doing something similar for my volvo 240
@@fast.biking_freddy I bought brackets from klracing. You have to remove your original handbrake cables but other than that they are pretty much bolt on
I've always wondered about the specifics of how this is setup.
Go to chrisfix how to install a hydrolic brake
dope video, and great timing. I actually just bought one of these brakes on ebay to put in my racing sim rig.
don't forget about proportioning valve :D
I had an interesting experience today where I had to parallel park facing oncoming traffic with less that 2 feet of wiggle room to get behind a Transit (probably a luxury in places like New York but extremely rare in my part of Northern Ireland :) ). The amount of dry steering was painful. Anyway, I get home and this is in the recommend. I'll take it as a hint. One hydraulic handbrake in a standard 1.6 diesel Focus daily driver coming right up. Will need to swap the drums for discs first though. :)
Slide right into those narrow spaces, love it!
Very nice, thanks guys! Love you! and waiting for new videos. Keep it up!
Thanks again Wyatt and team. Great content.
In the 'bad first date' community we call it the "make her never want to get in my car again" lever
Wouldn't be better to put the proportioning valve ahead of the handbrake master cylinder so that you get the full benefit of the effort you put into the lever?
playitlouder I commented the same thing bias valve should be before the hydro not after as he said 🤦🏻♂️
Love the video. Love your brakes.
Great, short video. Thank you.
Wouldn't it be better if the proportioning valve is between the master and hand brake instead of after the hand brake. That way the hand brake isn't limited by the proportioning valve, only the foot brake is.
That made no sense.
@@bn880 It does to smert peeps
@@snek9353 I am smart peeps, and I am telling you this makes no sense. Before/after doesn't matter it's a single pressure line and the limiter works the same.
@@bn880 That kind of proportioning valve is a restriction. By placing it after the hand brake it makes pulling the lever harder. When using the hand brake fluid does not flow between the foot brake master and hand brake master so placing the proportioning valve there makes it not restrict the hand brake, but only the foot brake.
@@snek9353 Ahh, yeah sorry. I had a brain fart there. Having it before the HB definitely leaves the HB pumping without the limiter/restrictor. (most of these cheap valves do work like limiters just cutting the peak force more less)
thanks for that. I've always wondered about those. However piping it all through the standard brake system seems like you are potentially creating more problems. I'd rather get a stand alone one.
no
if you don't want to upset your regular road car features (aka ABS), than adding a set of calipers is where it's at.
@@miguidieu06 very informative, thanks :)
Wyatt, my man!
You want the bias valve between your pedal master and handbrake master to bias you pedal force but allow best sensitivity form your hydraulic handbrake, not the other way round as mentioned in this video
No mention of the changes needed to AWD/4WD vehicles to allow a handbrake to function properly? You can add the fanciest handbrake in the world, if you have a locked center diff it'll just make your car slow down
Nobody has a locked center diff, unless they are in a 4WD truck or SUV, old quattro from the 80s, or they've got a proper rally racing transmission that comes with the rear drive disconnect for the handbrake.
@@Teamoneilrally How about a Subaru with DCCD? Or a Lancer AWC with the center diff locked? I know they automatically unlock when you pull the stock cable handbrake, but if you don't connect that sensor into the system it won't work with the hydraulic one and you'll be handbraking a locked up diff.
I also assume any sort of limited slip center diff will not allow for this to work exactly as intended (non-DCCD Subarus, mitsubishi/dsm cars, etc) as they'll be trying to force some of that braking force through to the front as well? Just feel like it might be worth a mention!
Man 4k views and 0 thumbs down, good on you guys that says something
Nope... Now there's one... There's always one. Assholes... 😔
Is it ok to replace a normal parking brake & use a hydraulic e brake as a normal parking brake(to hold the car when parked?)
It's not great as a parking brake for a long time, I've seen cars roll away when parked in neutral with just the hydraulic handbrake holding them (did it myself once warming up a rally car, came back and it was across the road) I'm not sure why this happens but maybe you really need to pull it HARD then lock it in place? OR maybe some fluid slowly creeps past the seals inside the master cylinder and you lose pressure to the rear brakes over time? Maybe the little lock mechanisms on the ones I've used haven't been great? If you're parked in gear with the handbrake you're fine, it's just when the handbrake is the ONLY thing holding you on a hill it's not very trustworthy over time.
Great video by a nice guy, thanks!
Is it plausible that my stock parking/handbrake cable may have stretched? It seems less effective now than it used to be after some spirited use. If so, is that an easy fix?
Yes, usually you can tighten the cables up where they attach to the handle, the ends of the cables are often threaded and you just have to tighten the nuts. Hopefully it's that easy, if not then the adjustment is at the rear brakes.
In a rally car, how do you keep it from stationary without a parking brake . Does the hydraulic handbrake have a lock or something ?
Hydraulic handbrake won't stay on forever even if lever was some how locked. It can't be used as a parking brake. So you can leave the original parking brake on the car and use it or just leave it in gear.
Yes there's usually a lock so you can pull the handbrake and flip a little lever over that holds it. It's NOT great as a parking brake... If the car is off and in gear it's fine, but definitely don't trust just the handbrake for very long. This is why you always see rally cars parked with a rock wedged behind a tire when they have to park on hills.
Can you guys do a Post Office LLV Will It Rally? Asking for a friend. Come onnnnnnn! 😂
Do we need another caliper with this manual hydraulic lever, or just the existing one
Oooooo a e 36 BMW rally car tell me about it engine suspension brakes.... Do a vid on it please.... Queensland Australia
Rodney me too, Brisbane!
It's a 318ti with an M3 engine and transmission swap! We should do a little video with it for sure, it's mostly used for our drift schools but we just raised it up and put snow tires on it for some winter fun. VERY good times.
So in a rally car does it still have a park brake or could you lock the hydraulic brake . How does it stay stationary when not in drive?
Yes there's usually a lock so you can pull the handbrake and flip a little lever over that holds it. It's NOT great as a parking brake... If the car is off and in gear it's fine, but definitely don't trust just the handbrake for very long. This is why you always see rally cars parked with a rock wedged behind a tire when they have to park on hills.
HA ! Fiesta rally car , the truth be told driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car fast or something like that, HA ! Fiesta rally car
Fiesta! Yeah anyone that can't drive a slow car fast has no reason to buy a fast car anyway
Anything can be a rally car.
@@jackbeason8058 But not necessarily a good one!
Hi! I’m building a rally car, and your video shed some light on this matter to me, thanks for that! However, there is a question from what I’ve seen: when you apply the lever, how do you ensure that the brake fluid is not pressed against the central brake pump, along with the pressure to the rear wheels? That’s a question for which I’m still not able to get a clear answer. By the way, you mentioned the use of a “pedal box”. Even though I know slightly how it works, I’d like to suggest an idea for a video on that also! Thanks again and greetings from Portugal 🇵🇹
Bias valve should be before the hydro not after as that then reduces your hydro pressure and foot! Do it before hydro and it’s only reduces foot brake!
Questions,
how will this work on a AWD vehicle??
Love your guys videos , On the money with your Information 👍
Great video, can you use drums for this in the rear or only disc brakes?
Is it necessary to have a rear disc brakes for this kind of hydraulic handbrake to lock up effectively? If not what is the best way to make a hydraulic handbrake work on rear drum brakes?
It will definitely work with drum brakes!
Drum brakes are actually great brakes, they provide plenty of stopping power
Most racers don't like them because they build heat too fast and are a pain to service
But they're just fine for most situations
We run drums on the back of the lower-spec fiesta rally cars without any problems
@@Teamoneilrally Thanks for the info.. Will try the same.
I'm not proficient in tgat stuff at all but I have to ask, wouldn't it be better if you had the proportioning valve before the master cylinder? That way you should have full pressure when using the hand brake
Can you tell what brand of hydraulic brake are you using for Ford Fiesta?
So lets hear this for an AWD car I have an 2001 Audi Allroad and would love something like this to play with.
I saw something a while back regarding awd and a handbrake say you needed a twin master version with one used for the clutch to help save the center diff this was in specificly mentioned about Evo and DSM Mitsubishi cars. Any truth?
Yes, there are dual master handbrakes available, one application is to run the clutch and rear brake
Like you're saying that'll be easier on the center diff IF you don't have a rear drive disconnect or something that opens the center diff
BUT the EVO has the hydraulic diff pump as well...
Maybe the second master is going to that to open the center diff when handbrake is pulled???
That would be more beneficial than operating the clutch
We don't have a huge amount of experience with the Evos but my guess is it's opening the center diff
The real rally cars (race transmissions from Sadev or similar) have a rear drive disconnect at the front of the rear diff
Dual master handbrake disconnects rear drive completely
@@Teamoneilrally It was on an early I-III model similar to the Galant VR4 I am building and was curious because all the differentials are mechanical. In that type of set up you would run clutch master to the hand brake then the slave on one side and brake master hand brake to rear calipers on the other?
i missed 2 years of winter drifting full years of rally fun i am sad. i even worked all year utah sucks for me lol
Is this an okay mod for an AWD car? I know a lot of rally cars are AWD but I’m interested in how the center diff would handle rear wheel lockup. I’m guessing it would just experience much more wear?
What about hydro brakes that also open up the center diffs in awd/4wd applications?
For an STI or something that comes with a switch that opens the center diff, just mount that same switch to the hydraulic handbrake.
The open class rally cars with full racing transmissions sometimes have 2 master cylinders on the handbrake, the second one is for the rear drive disconnect. It's basically just a clutch pack between the rear driveshaft and the rear diff that releases when you pull the lever (disconnecting rear drive completely).
Can u lock the hydraulic brake for parking? And if not how do u secure
Many good hydraulic handbrakes have a latch to keep pressure on, though that will bleed through after time. As a rally driver I normally just leave it in gear, or get my co-driver to chock a wheel. In theory one can keep the original handbrake as well -- if space and wight permit.
How do you park with hydraulic handbrake? With gear instead?
Most of the commercially available hydraulic handbrakes have a little lock so that you can pull the handbrake then flip a little keeper that holds it in place. They work OK but definitely still park in gear when possible.
Hey Wyatt, could you guys please do a video on how using the handbrake in some 4wd rally cars also disconnects torque going to the rear wheels (or however it works) lol I can't even describe the system let alone find information on how their implemented. Cheers :)
So how do you use the handbrake for parking?
What are the best options for split-bias braking system cars that have two rear lines?
Most modern cars still have one front line and one rear line off the master
Those go into the ABS block and that's where the diagonal bias deal happens
So go straight to the master cylinder and bypass the ABS block
Most applications where a hydraulic HB is going in, ABS is coming out anyway
OR if you wanted to keep it, there are dual-master handbrakes you can buy
Run one line into each and job done
Hi Wyatt, Nice video up here!! I have a question as regarding the brake bias adjustable valve. In the video you told that it has to be connected after the handbrake. Personally i saw some applications that this valve was connected before the handbrake. I thought that this was the correct way to do it as after the handbrake it will limit the flow of the cylinder. What is your experience on this and does it really matter ? Best Regards, Stefan.
Basically, just think of the bias valve as an adjustable restriction in the line. You are free to put it before or after the handbrake, the only difference is that you might change the feel of the handbrake slightly. With the amount of leverage you have with a long handle, it's easy enough to pull either way... It's really just personal preference. Honestly you'd have to do a real A-B comparison to notice the difference. If you had a really short handle without much leverage, maybe commit to putting the bias valve first, or if you used the wrong master cylinder that's really hard to operate. The only other thought is that with the adjustable valve after the handbrake, it might be slightly harder to pull, but you might have more "feel" as you pull it? I'd really have to set a car up each way and try it out.
@@Teamoneilrally Thanks for the detailed explanation!! Cheers!!! :)
How do you get them to work with the Subaru STI dccd system??
You connect a switch to a handbrake, in such way that it makes contact to ground when handbrake is pulled. And connect this switch to DCCD ECU. This is already done in OEM wiring, so just copy that. For best results make switch so that it is pressed first, before brake pressure ir applied, so that you give DCCD a time open.
Just take the switch off the stock handbrake and mount it to the hydraulic one so that it clicks as soon as you pull the handbrake.
So with this setup, when I use my foot brake, all 4 brakes will work as normal? Or would only the fronts lock up? But then when I pull the handbrake only the rear locks up? If so that is simple compared to having two rear calipers
Yup! Your foot brake works normally on all four just like nothing happened, the handbrake only works on the rear
Nobody runs 2 rear calipers on rally cars, you'll only really see that on drift cars
@@Teamoneilrally hey thank you! I was trying to figure out how I'd make a dual caliper bracket for my car. But This video and your response drasciatlly helped me out and cleared the air. I appreciate the help!
Anytime Justin!
You indicated to take the rear brake line from the pedals master cylinder and plum it I to the handbrake, but then how do you get rear braking with the pedal. Wouldn't you need some kind of T fitting and have it connected to both?
No. Line to rear brakes just goes through hydraulic handbrake. If the handbrake is not on (or maybe even if it's on) and you press the brake pedal fluid will just go through handbrake cylinder and to the rear as normal.
Nope, when you press the brake pedal, the fluid goes right past the handbrake master to the rear brakes and they function as normal.
Cheers mates, so its in-line get it!
Would you suggest adding a second caliper or just tie into the rear brake line and using the current calipers?
Rally cars always tie into the existing rear brake line and use one rear caliper. I'm honestly not sure why the drift car rules make you do the second caliper, the only reason that the second caliper makes any sense is if you want to keep your ABS functioning maybe? It's not any safer, and why have 2 rear calipers if you don't need them?
Team O'Neil appreciate the information thanks
The centering line on the steering wheel, could you explain why it is important enough to put on all your cars?
The center line makes it easy to know exactly where straight is when you start sliding around, especially at night when you can't see dark colors inside the car well or when 99% of your concentration is focused ahead down the road, you still pick it up naturally with your peripheral vision. It's also a nice tool to have for instructing here at the school, or so you can critique your own driving. Usually when a driver gets understeer, they tend to turn the steering wheel more and more... making the understeer worse. Part of the process here is to hold the steering wheel turned a little and use the brakes and/or throttle to fix the understeer (depending on what kind of car FWD, AWD, or RWD). You see most good drivers keep that centerline between 9 oclock and 3 oclock, where rookie drivers are all over the place.
@@Teamoneilrally I see it in a lot of pro cars as well, always wondered. Thank you.
Sound a bit sick there Wyatt
Does this mean you no longer have rear brakes when using the peddle?
If you interrupt the system from the main master up under the hood then yes.. if you run from one master to the other no.
The rear brakes still function as normal
Can you turn a Land Rover sport to a lowrider
yes
6:36 You forgot to put that link in the desc
Holy smokes! Good catch, adding it now, but here it is: ua-cam.com/video/Dv_mdpEVOc8/v-deo.html
is it me or did he really change the channel name from Tim o neil rally School to tim o neil.
We're shifting to just Team O'Neil because of all of the different schools we run at this point, drifting, off road, winter driving safety... The rally school is a big part of our day-to-day business, but it doesn't accurately describe everything going on out here so we ditched it (pun intended).