Its a necessary evil. Nothing wrong with proven front drivetrain but loss of AWD and acceleration is a factor for those like me looking at Aptera as an affordable all season sports car. EMR4 would have been better and likely will be used when Aptera has scaled production enough to source them - fortunately its a fairly easy swap vs the change of technology.
To be honest, the possibility that not yet mass production experiences company Elaphe might not be able to deliver at the production rate Aptera wants to get to very quickly, has been my greatest concern. Now Aptera is in the quite comfortable position to have a platform that can receive the readily available Vitesco drive and later without great changes and further engineering can be used with a more slowly ramping up Elaphe drives..
Great analysis thought I would have compared both FWD and AWD with the EMR3 setup. Once Aptera gets some capital from sales & future investors, they might make their own IWM in the States. There are lots of reasons why they would want to do that but at this time, the EMR3 is the best path to production. A concern some friends had with the IWM was the high voltage wiring going to the front motors. They were concerned that in an accident that those wires might have 400V with lots of current behind it. I explained that it would be very likely that Aptera would have shutoffs at the battery that in the event of a collision the power to those cables would stop at the battery. The BMS could also be programmed to disconnect the pack from the unit and even the cell strings from the pack though I think that might be a challenge with their cell connectors. In any case, the high voltage wires would not have power except for a millisecond after impact.
Well done vid, thanks. Then there's the 6 cooling lines full of coolant to hubs and 12 sealed connections along with the 6 power cables as mentioned plus the mounting and routing hardware for all of it over active suspension components. A lot more electrical connections to 3 inverters also. Connections have the highest failure rate of most anything. Maybe all that coolant needs a bigger pump, manifold, and reservoir too? I fixed things for a living and look forward to the EMR3 because much less to go wrong and a better ride as well.
yup chris anthony said connectors have the biggest failure rate in a recent video, I dont agree, most connectors these days are really reliable. Which ones you think fail?
@@namenotshown9277Good question. That's true, connectors are generally better now. I don't know what type or quality of electrical and plumbing connectors Aptera was going to use for production or what materials they are made from. So I won't guess about that. When I used to do failure analysis for various tech products it was based on a very thick book of every component you can imagine. Think it came from the military. Yes, connections had by far the highest failure rate by magnitudes. They can fail in a lot of ways as you probably know depending on type, quality, environment, use, dis similar metals, crimps, flexing, seals, temp, fatigue, etc. The sheer number of them in a hub motor setup mostly goes away with the emr3. In the winter here, salt is used and about the only thing that holds up is stainless steel. Those type connectors would be very expensive and there would be a lot of them. The many fewer emr3 connections being in a protected enviro is a lot less to go wrong. That's kind of where I'm coming from regardless of connector quality.
@@ronfarnsworth7074 There are some issues with connectors, if they get wet there are problems. Designs are pretty good these days, you wouldn't be expecting too many problems would be my thinking. If you have different experience I take note, but going from my personel experiences very few issues. Connectors generally are there for a reason, taking them out will cause maintainence issues. Imagine you had to decrimp or desolder mutliple wires to replace a small circuit board. What I pain, when a simple connector would suffice. Cost savings yes, but a headache for owners down the track, if they ever make any that is.
@@namenotshown9277 You are right, environment is a key factor for connector dependability. Spent most of my life fixing things, sounds like you did too. I was involved with tech, field engineering, product support and development, did a tech startup, etc. I think in Aptera's case, new product and all, less complexity and points of failure, and less cost and labor and parts and ease of repair sort of over ride our sort of narrow discussion about connector dependability as there's a bigger picture. But yes, I agree connectors have their place, no getting away from them. I'll be pretty happy with minimizing the chance of fixing a messy coolant leak though. That stuff goes everywhere. Cable and coolant line chafing is another thing that would worry me long term. I would have bought an Aptera either way. Be well!
And those cables and conectors are out in the open in an often wet and sometimes salty environment. A small crack in the insulation can get you in serious truble! Not an unsolvable problem, but it might take longer as we wish and it might add aditional cost, too. Since FWD is good enough for me and I drove an Opel Corsa-e for three years and had no problem getting the wheels spinning until ESP kicked in, I'm fine with this decission and hope we'll see the Aptera soon in Germany. June 2025 would be nice when my company car will be replaced 😄
Really nice, educational video. I also really like your delivery. So much better to see you talking (and if you are reading, it doesn't show) than (like so many others) to hear the narration with (usually) unrelated b-roll footage for video. Kudos. For the weight comparison, it's a bit of apples and oranges, isn't it, because the Vitesco calculation is FWD and your Elaphe calculation is AWD? But this comparision is valid anyway, since these are the new and old LE configurations, respectively. For the Elaphe motors, you estimate 3 feet between the motor and the inverter, 3 cables per motor, and 3 motors. Wouldn't that be 27 feet of cable? (You state "9 feet of 4/0 cabling for the whole system."). But your 17 lbs for the cable sounds like you did use 27 lbs, not 9 lbs (using Google's 0.646 lb/ft for 4/0 cable). The hub motor configuration will also have coolant lines and fluid -- probably more of each than for the Vitesco motor, but maybe this isn't a huge contribution to the weight. Nonetheless, it does make the weight advantage of the Vitesco motor even more attractive.
Great analysis! I’m still on the fence about waiting for all-wheel drive. I was hoping for this vehicle to be a bit of a sports car. Hopefully we’ll see some encouraging track videos soon.
Nice analysis! I think that Elaphe was a victim of the investor drought that we have seen in the last 3 years, especially with so many EV startups struggling and failing. Elaphe had been planning on the EV market growing wildly after the success of Tesla. But Lordstown had unknown but significant drivetrain issues rumored, and Lightyear also ran out of money, plus I think that a big deal from Mercdes and others fell through. At the fully charged show in San Diego, next to the Gamma unveiling, their engineers talked about Elaphe opening up a new factory to scale up the production of a bespoke motor for the Aptera. The new motor was smaller and lighter than the M700. But the M700 was really designed for crossovers and pickup trucks that were MUCH heavier than the Aptera, and more targeted on high performance, torque, and precise control, rather than on superior range and efficiency. It is a good point that the Aptera customized Elaphe motor was down on HP and torque, and had a lower 101MPH top speed rather than the M700s 110MPH. And it was a little lighter than the M700. Even though the EMR3 can't freewheel and have a tiny rear motor run by itself at freeway speeds for super efficiency, Tesla was able to have a front permanent magnet motor combined with a rear induction motor to provide extra power and control, but using just a little (not double) the power of the front motor alone. I am still hoping that Aptera will still use the custom Elaphe motor in back for the AWD model. But they have left the option open for a 6-10kW hub motor commonly used for years in small Chinese EVs. And proven reliable. For me, I'm not waiting for AWD. Even though I want it for the added power and wheel control. Maybe in the 2nd gen Aptera in 2027.
Well done. I find little information regarding the technical differences in systems. You filled my void admirably. Maybe digging deeper into the power differences of the two would be next?
Thank you for this well done vid! For city driving, I would like the regen feature of all EV's. But for open highway use, I would like some sort of a clutch to allow the Aptera to freewheel coast without the magnetic drag of the motor. I am glad that the current approach is reducing un-sprung weight. We only hear about harsh ride, and handling issues when there is high un-sprung weight. But there is an even more important issue, especially as pertains to the Aptera: the negative effect of un-sprung weight upon rolling efficiency and range. Unless you are on the open highway, normal driving roads (especially in the city limits) are not glassy smooth. The energy needed to lift a heavy wheel up and over a bump in the road will be coming from the forward motion energy of the Aptera.
Good analysis on motors and weight. Well done. Would have been useful to have on screen graphics. I think the Protean in wheel motors would be a better bet. The inverters are built into the hub. If I wanted anything for my Launch Edition it would be heated seats and a wheel instead of a yolk. Your production quality could be enhanced by a lavalier microphone and better lighting to keep shadows out of your face. (I started making UA-cam videos in 2019 and it’s always a continual improvement process)
Appreciate your research, breakdown and comparison of the two systems! I am not yet convinced that the drivetrain switch has been done due to a supply or demand issue. Rather, I feel it has been done to reduce Aptera's software workload prior to production. Going from three independent systems which need to be software coordinated depending on many various conditions and situations, down to one drive unit which requires little to none of the same, is a huge reduction in software needing to be written prior to production. I could easily be wrong, but Steve Fambro hinted at this in the first Podcast episode also. Your thoughts??
They don't have the software they need right now They show of all their progress, but i never once saw a interview with someone working hard on the software There is no software That's why i kniw aptera has become a scam
Hub motors may be the future but they are not yet mature technology. The different size batteries are more of a weight change than switching from hub motors to a central motor. Get the car on the road and make changes/improvements in future models. If they can't make a profit, it won't matter which motor they use.
Please work on audio levels. It is pretty messed up to get blasted by the bumper music at the beginning and ending of the video, and then have to suffer from poor voice audio for the content. Get a mic on any speaking individuals in the video to stop the bad room echo that happens. Turn the music way down because there is no value added with that.
Thank you for the feed back, the audio is one issue we are working on. we have been trying different mics and just using what is on the phone. Thank you for watching!
Considering that the EMR3 has been in production longer I would think its would be a lower cost. Also the ERM3 is a smaller package compared to the ERM4. Thank you for watching!
Seems that nobody reads the SEC filings. If they did, they would have known long ago that Elaphe wanted a commitment of 20K motors. I can see why. Aptera has been taking a long time and Elaphe was tired of all of these targeted production dates. They can't plan on anything if Aptera can plan on anything either. Instead, Aptera went with an off the shelf unit where they can buy as needed. There's even a better unit but that's one you got to commit to and Aptera doesn't have that kind of money sitting around. Just buy the older unit and go from there. It had nothing to do with what is better, it's just about what they can afford.
That would only be 7,000 cars... is there any evidence that Elaphe could have easily produced... say.... ten times that many... twenty times that many in short order? We don't know. This is all speculation based on insufficient information. As engineers trying to produce tens of thousands of reliable vehicles in a timely manner, I'm sure they had good reasons for the change.
@@GullWingInnMoclips - The 20K was for commitment. At the pace that Aptera does things, just to get to 7K vehicles is going to take a while. Remember, this is a company that has never produced a product, let alone a functioning prototype for what they intend to build. I suspect that it'll be a real slow ramp up to these big numbers that people are expecting.
@@gr8dvd - No. That will not happen. Reason is, Aptera must stop re-engineering the vehicle. Stick with something, freeze the design and build pre production prototypes. They only did wholesale changes to the body, chassis (twice), suspension, cooling and propulsion system. I doubt they even have a complete battery ready to go. It would be great if the company would be transparent but yet they are not. They just keep telling us they are but their track record says else wise. I just hope they stop with these big changes, build the pre production prototypes and start testing them. Time is running out as production starts before July, 4, 2025.
Great analysis. I think the EMR3 is going to drop the range by ~4-5% and will reduce the winter driving capability and acceleration but it is a necessary step to get to market. This translates to a 16-20 mile range loss for the LE which is substantial but not likely to be a deal breaker for anyone. I suspect the relationship with Elaphe has been soured. I still think the AWD will be a combination of a small vitesco(Schaeffler) hub motor and an EMR4 (induction); this combination should be more power, simpler and easier to source than the modified m700 motors from elaphe and is a natural evolution of the supply agreements and technical base of the initial launch version. Since the EMR4 is induction it can be shut off to cruise and Schaeffler should be in a better position than Elaphe to actually scale production of their hub motor. This also makes business sense because why abandon a supplier which has given you the parts to ship vehicles and has a clear path to improve and return to an old partner that couldnt produce at the price or scale Aptera needed the first time. Weight definitely impacts range but in terms of the physics calculations at a constant speed of 55mph the addition of 30lb to a 2200lb aptera is not that bad. Apart from just generally selling that reducing weight is good i can find no reasonable combination of constants on road which would cause 1% for only 30lb. Offroad on gravel sure since the rolling drag is way higher but not on a paved road with road friction almost certainly in the 0.008-0.01 range.
I like your idea of an EMR4 together with a Schaeffler hub motor in the back to facilitate all-wheel-drive. And agree this would make sense now that Schaeffler and Vitesco have merged. I’m still going to buy my launch edition accelerator Aptera as soon as I can get my hands on it - but maybe that’s what will be powering my next Aptera.
@@kevinscott8642 early Aptera owners will probably do well on referrals towards their 2nd one. I'm torn if I'll deal with the import myself or wait until localized for Canada and potentially has awd option
You sound like an engineer! I LIKE your detailed list of components in your comparison. I think you left some out. There were changes other than the inclusion of a drive shaft for the new motor. Much more complex with more pieces in the suspension.
I have played with electric bike. converted one to hubmotor then to mid drive but after a year of use, I went back to hubmotor. Mid drive ride quality was not better enough on the road to compensate for efficiency loss and simplicity.
Which does not necessarily translate to an EV. But if you want to go there... I had a 1500W hub motor on the front of a trike I built... the hall effect sensors wiring failed twice... I believe it was at least partly due to excess vibration and shock loads of the extra unsprung weight. Who knows?
You are comparing 3 wheel drive to 2 wheel drive. But if we use 2 wheels the weigh difference is a wash. Where the heat will be shedded ? Did Aptera come with the new electric consumption from this change ? Are they adding or removing battery capacity ? That would tell about the new motor efficiency.
Hub motors are a horrendously bad idea. I hope Sandy talked them out of it. At least they are on the right track now. Heavy sprung weight, insane cable runs, damaging motion of the motor through pot holes. Better late change than no change though.
My guess is 3 to 5% range hit with the same battery. Departing from the Aptera motto of having every aspect of the car about afficiency. Doing that had a compond effect. More efficient then less battery, then lighter car then better range.
And no belly cooling, so there goes another few procent efficiency And they never proved their numbers anyway My guesstimate : 5 solar charge miles per day 6 miles per kwh So the launch edition will not have 400 miles range but 240 miles
A hub motor has magnets and windings, vitesco motor has magnet and windings. Hub motor has magnets on outer rotor , vitesco has magnets on inner rotor. You can freehweel both when wires are not connected, there is an effect called cogging that can cause a tiny bit of loss of energy, but not worth worrying about. Why are you saying you cant freeweel vitesco motor? Its same as hub motor except you have rotor in the middle and windings on the outside. I could be wrong bit it doesn't make sense to me.
The Beta vehicle was in Italy for several months doing suspension checks. My guess is the Beta has been modified to have the new suspension and motor so they could test it. To build a PI set of vehicles without testing on the track would be foolish when they have Beta and could modify it. Being in Italy, prying eyes can be kept at a distance.
There are certain rules that should be followed to build a proper and safe handling 3 Wheeled car that I will talk about in a upcoming video. Thank you for watching!
The issue is efficiency will be down, driving dynamics will be reduced. With the hub motors they could control speed at each wheel but not with the EMR3 some stated they were told it was an open differential design which will be interesting to say the least. However the real cost here is the fully separate ABS integration required which will raises cost and complexity. They have never built a mule/vehicle with powered brakes yet so let us see what PI2 actually uses. The real problem for Aptera is at $40k it is not competitive with anything and given battery price is not the driving cost in one even the 25 kWh will only be two thousand dollars less. Aptera needs to retail for $25k, not $40k as you give up two seats, all the safety expected out of vehicles that cost as much or far less, and insurance will not be inexpensive
I reserved one and this change reduce the appeal for this car. It will be less efficient and traction control will be dumbed. Light car on snow here need better tires and better traction control that big ones. The Honda Insignt was simply dangerous in the winter here.
While I am trying to teach logic, do you see the air flow over Gamma at 9 minutes in? Notice it doesn't go down into the opening where the wiper sits? This is supposed to be the main source of cooling, and it gets none. Where they put radiators are internal, where heat can only build up until everything cooks in its own rising heat. No matter what the motor or the battery type, this silly trike will continue to fry like it has done plenty of times already. One day, a person might fry.
Wow! Great catch. I'm sure they never considered this. You were right all along! They should just scrap the whole thing to please you bleating trolls at this point. Scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to whinge about is tough work, but you can alwys be relied on to fabricate the really scary stuff!
@@GullWingInnMoclips I have experience with knowing how you think, and it's far from rational. Here is the deeper thinking - try to refute it: "Wow! Great catch." Nothing wrong with that thinking, so far, but it quickly takes a nose-dive from here. "I'm sure they never considered this." Nothing to be sure of. The years since 2005 has given them ages to consider it. My claim has never been that it was an oversight - I have always said that they knew they were scamming as soon as they came up with an enclosed front and skin cooling nonsense; they just never intended to sell one. "You were right all along!" If you weren't being sarcastic I would say your thinking has begun to improve, but there are so many examples of you saying I am wrong, and they are "all along". Hence, I see through your sarcasm and recognize you are the d1m-w1t you really are. But I have an example of being right along the way, and it is on the matter of cooling: I said the skin cooling wouldn't work, and about three months ago Steve Fambro announced the skin cooling had been dropped from the LE, with a maybe later when the technology improves enough. Me right - them wrong all along, lol. I will remain right on most of my calls. Start to realize that. "They should just scrap the whole thing to please you bleating trolls at this point." They are still making money, which is what they have wanted to make 'all along'. They continue to please themselves while fooling their fanboys. If anything, I (and other astute knockers) am just irrelevant to their real plans. I am sure they don't care how pleased we are. However, making suggestions about what they should do next is not for you or I to say. Nor does it alter the great catch. "Scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to whinge about is tough work," But easier than you finding something to praise. I have the advantage of natural intelligence. The picture of the wind flow I used; the NBC overheating episode; the Nikki overheating after the fake 6 trips up a hill were all not found in the bottom of any barrel, and were absolutely real. Even the overheating at the X-Prize didn't occur in some barrel. And me having a whinge is about as real as that barrel you mention, lol. I'm just sticking to facts, which are devoid of emotions, unlike your "wow!". "but you can alwys be relied on to fabricate the really scary stuff!" So - what's the relationship between complaining from the bottom of barrels and fabricating scary stuff? Better still - what's the relationship between complaining and great catches? Nothing; only to self-display your scatterbrained thinking. Believe me; you have nothing to be scared about. They will never put you in one they have sold to you. The best you can do is sit in one for a few minutes and your chances of frying are less than winning the lottery. I'm trusting you're not one of the 29 employees, of course.
@@aussieideasman8498 Tvvat did you say? Nice word salad crap flood troll action on your part. Almost seems reasonable. Good job! Most of you hacks make so little effort as to be laughable. At least you give a good try. You are a top-notch whinge master... not at all a cvnt. I commend you.
@@aussieideasman8498 Well my reply to you got censored by someone making the world-of-words safe for five year olds, so not going to that effort with you again... except to say great effort! Most trolls don't work at it much.
@@GullWingInnMoclips We all suffer the foibles of YT, but it's no excuse not to refute me. Your real excuse is because you can't. I am neither wrong, nor are you capable if I happened to be. Because of the first reason, I open it up to every intelligent person, bar none.
It does not really matter anymore anyway The money for the pi builds is not there yet and will not come Just like the further 200 million for production will not come It's too little too late, their window of opportunity has come and gone Hopefully a Chinese company will make it The Aptera is really nice, the company sucks big time
Thank you for taking the time to do the comparison! Very interesting! :-)
Thanks for your analysis - very interesting! Switching to the EMR3 motor makes sense.
Its a necessary evil. Nothing wrong with proven front drivetrain but loss of AWD and acceleration is a factor for those like me looking at Aptera as an affordable all season sports car. EMR4 would have been better and likely will be used when Aptera has scaled production enough to source them - fortunately its a fairly easy swap vs the change of technology.
@@ccibinel EMR4 would be better and hopefully will follow the EMR3 in a future updated version when they’re more readily available.
Great analysis, thank you
To be honest, the possibility that not yet mass production experiences company Elaphe might not be able to deliver at the production rate Aptera wants to get to very quickly, has been my greatest concern. Now Aptera is in the quite comfortable position to have a platform that can receive the readily available Vitesco drive and later without great changes and further engineering can be used with a more slowly ramping up Elaphe drives..
Great analysis thought I would have compared both FWD and AWD with the EMR3 setup. Once Aptera gets some capital from sales & future investors, they might make their own IWM in the States. There are lots of reasons why they would want to do that but at this time, the EMR3 is the best path to production.
A concern some friends had with the IWM was the high voltage wiring going to the front motors. They were concerned that in an accident that those wires might have 400V with lots of current behind it. I explained that it would be very likely that Aptera would have shutoffs at the battery that in the event of a collision the power to those cables would stop at the battery. The BMS could also be programmed to disconnect the pack from the unit and even the cell strings from the pack though I think that might be a challenge with their cell connectors. In any case, the high voltage wires would not have power except for a millisecond after impact.
Well done vid, thanks.
Then there's the 6 cooling lines full of coolant to hubs and 12 sealed connections along with the 6 power cables as mentioned plus the mounting and routing hardware for all of it over active suspension components. A lot more electrical connections to 3 inverters also. Connections have the highest failure rate of most anything. Maybe all that coolant needs a bigger pump, manifold, and reservoir too? I fixed things for a living and look forward to the EMR3 because much less to go wrong and a better ride as well.
yup chris anthony said connectors have the biggest failure rate in a recent video,
I dont agree, most connectors these days are really reliable. Which ones you think fail?
@@namenotshown9277Good question. That's true, connectors are generally better now. I don't know what type or quality of electrical and plumbing connectors Aptera was going to use for production or what materials they are made from. So I won't guess about that.
When I used to do failure analysis for various tech products it was based on a very thick book of every component you can imagine. Think it came from the military. Yes, connections had by far the highest failure rate by magnitudes. They can fail in a lot of ways as you probably know depending on type, quality, environment, use, dis similar metals, crimps, flexing, seals, temp, fatigue, etc. The sheer number of them in a hub motor setup mostly goes away with the emr3. In the winter here, salt is used and about the only thing that holds up is stainless steel. Those type connectors would be very expensive and there would be a lot of them. The many fewer emr3 connections being in a protected enviro is a lot less to go wrong. That's kind of where I'm coming from regardless of connector quality.
@@ronfarnsworth7074 There are some issues with connectors, if they get wet there are problems. Designs are pretty good these days, you wouldn't be expecting too many problems would be my thinking.
If you have different experience I take note,
but going from my personel experiences very few issues. Connectors generally are there for a reason, taking them out will cause maintainence issues. Imagine you had to decrimp or desolder mutliple wires to replace a small circuit board. What I pain, when a simple connector would suffice.
Cost savings yes, but a headache for owners down the track, if they ever make any that is.
@@namenotshown9277 You are right, environment is a key factor for connector dependability.
Spent most of my life fixing things, sounds like you did too. I was involved with tech, field engineering, product support and development, did a tech startup, etc.
I think in Aptera's case, new product and all, less complexity and points of failure, and less cost and labor and parts and ease of repair sort of over ride our sort of narrow discussion about connector dependability as there's a bigger picture.
But yes, I agree connectors have their place, no getting away from them.
I'll be pretty happy with minimizing the chance of fixing a messy coolant leak though. That stuff goes everywhere.
Cable and coolant line chafing is another thing that would worry me long term.
I would have bought an Aptera either way. Be well!
And those cables and conectors are out in the open in an often wet and sometimes salty environment. A small crack in the insulation can get you in serious truble!
Not an unsolvable problem, but it might take longer as we wish and it might add aditional cost, too.
Since FWD is good enough for me and I drove an Opel Corsa-e for three years and had no problem getting the wheels spinning until ESP kicked in, I'm fine with this decission and hope we'll see the Aptera soon in Germany. June 2025 would be nice when my company car will be replaced 😄
Really nice, educational video. I also really like your delivery. So much better to see you talking (and if you are reading, it doesn't show) than (like so many others) to hear the narration with (usually) unrelated b-roll footage for video. Kudos.
For the weight comparison, it's a bit of apples and oranges, isn't it, because the Vitesco calculation is FWD and your Elaphe calculation is AWD? But this comparision is valid anyway, since these are the new and old LE configurations, respectively. For the Elaphe motors, you estimate 3 feet between the motor and the inverter, 3 cables per motor, and 3 motors. Wouldn't that be 27 feet of cable? (You state "9 feet of 4/0 cabling for the whole system."). But your 17 lbs for the cable sounds like you did use 27 lbs, not 9 lbs (using Google's 0.646 lb/ft for 4/0 cable). The hub motor configuration will also have coolant lines and fluid -- probably more of each than for the Vitesco motor, but maybe this isn't a huge contribution to the weight. Nonetheless, it does make the weight advantage of the Vitesco motor even more attractive.
Great analysis! I’m still on the fence about waiting for all-wheel drive. I was hoping for this vehicle to be a bit of a sports car. Hopefully we’ll see some encouraging track videos soon.
Nice analysis! I think that Elaphe was a victim of the investor drought that we have seen in the last 3 years, especially with so many EV startups struggling and failing. Elaphe had been planning on the EV market growing wildly after the success of Tesla. But Lordstown had unknown but significant drivetrain issues rumored, and Lightyear also ran out of money, plus I think that a big deal from Mercdes and others fell through. At the fully charged show in San Diego, next to the Gamma unveiling, their engineers talked about Elaphe opening up a new factory to scale up the production of a bespoke motor for the Aptera. The new motor was smaller and lighter than the M700. But the M700 was really designed for crossovers and pickup trucks that were MUCH heavier than the Aptera, and more targeted on high performance, torque, and precise control, rather than on superior range and efficiency. It is a good point that the Aptera customized Elaphe motor was down on HP and torque, and had a lower 101MPH top speed rather than the M700s 110MPH. And it was a little lighter than the M700. Even though the EMR3 can't freewheel and have a tiny rear motor run by itself at freeway speeds for super efficiency, Tesla was able to have a front permanent magnet motor combined with a rear induction motor to provide extra power and control, but using just a little (not double) the power of the front motor alone. I am still hoping that Aptera will still use the custom Elaphe motor in back for the AWD model. But they have left the option open for a 6-10kW hub motor commonly used for years in small Chinese EVs. And proven reliable. For me, I'm not waiting for AWD. Even though I want it for the added power and wheel control. Maybe in the 2nd gen Aptera in 2027.
Aptera seems like a nice little hobby!
I am enjoying it. Thank you for watching!
Well done. I find little information regarding the technical differences in systems. You filled my void admirably. Maybe digging deeper into the power differences of the two would be next?
Thank you for this well done vid! For city driving, I would like the regen feature of all EV's. But for open highway use, I would like some sort of a clutch to allow the Aptera to freewheel coast without the magnetic drag of the motor.
I am glad that the current approach is reducing un-sprung weight.
We only hear about harsh ride, and handling issues when there is high un-sprung weight. But there is an even more important issue, especially as pertains to the Aptera: the negative effect of un-sprung weight upon rolling efficiency and range. Unless you are on the open highway, normal driving roads (especially in the city limits) are not glassy smooth. The energy needed to lift a heavy wheel up and over a bump in the road will be coming from the forward motion energy of the Aptera.
Wow!! Really good point! Never thought of that
Good analysis on motors and weight. Well done. Would have been useful to have on screen graphics.
I think the Protean in wheel motors would be a better bet. The inverters are built into the hub.
If I wanted anything for my Launch Edition it would be heated seats and a wheel instead of a yolk.
Your production quality could be enhanced by a lavalier microphone and better lighting to keep shadows out of your face.
(I started making UA-cam videos in 2019 and it’s always a continual improvement process)
This writer understands that the Kia Niro BEV, has the EMR3 motor & I own one of these
Appreciate your research, breakdown and comparison of the two systems! I am not yet convinced that the drivetrain switch has been done due to a supply or demand issue. Rather, I feel it has been done to reduce Aptera's software workload prior to production. Going from three independent systems which need to be software coordinated depending on many various conditions and situations, down to one drive unit which requires little to none of the same, is a huge reduction in software needing to be written prior to production. I could easily be wrong, but Steve Fambro hinted at this in the first Podcast episode also. Your thoughts??
They don't have the software they need right now
They show of all their progress, but i never once saw a interview with someone working hard on the software
There is no software
That's why i kniw aptera has become a scam
@@shrimptopian3392 You know nothing!!
That's more than you
And that's more than Aptera know itself, or they are just not telling the truth 🤔
@@shrimptopian3392 u kniw notathing
@@shrimptopian3392 No, you really don’t follow Aptera closely enough to engage in any useful discussion.
For the weight calculation you did not include the weight of brake parts, that would be more than 30 lbs
Hub motors may be the future but they are not yet mature technology. The different size batteries are more of a weight change than switching from hub motors to a central motor. Get the car on the road and make changes/improvements in future models. If they can't make a profit, it won't matter which motor they use.
Audio is extremely quiet. I almost thought there was no sound after the intro.
I would say that there is a mismatch between the volume of the intro and ending music and the volume in between.
Please work on audio levels. It is pretty messed up to get blasted by the bumper music at the beginning and ending of the video, and then have to suffer from poor voice audio for the content. Get a mic on any speaking individuals in the video to stop the bad room echo that happens. Turn the music way down because there is no value added with that.
Thank you for the feed back, the audio is one issue we are working on. we have been trying different mics and just using what is on the phone. Thank you for watching!
I would imagine that the motor upgrade to #4 the #3 will be discounted in price.
Considering that the EMR3 has been in production longer I would think its would be a lower cost. Also the ERM3 is a smaller package compared to the ERM4. Thank you for watching!
So, what’s the zero to sixty supposed to be now after this change?
Seems that nobody reads the SEC filings. If they did, they would have known long ago that Elaphe wanted a commitment of 20K motors. I can see why. Aptera has been taking a long time and Elaphe was tired of all of these targeted production dates. They can't plan on anything if Aptera can plan on anything either.
Instead, Aptera went with an off the shelf unit where they can buy as needed. There's even a better unit but that's one you got to commit to and Aptera doesn't have that kind of money sitting around. Just buy the older unit and go from there. It had nothing to do with what is better, it's just about what they can afford.
That would only be 7,000 cars... is there any evidence that Elaphe could have easily produced... say.... ten times that many... twenty times that many in short order? We don't know. This is all speculation based on insufficient information. As engineers trying to produce tens of thousands of reliable vehicles in a timely manner, I'm sure they had good reasons for the change.
Any idea if the EMR3 & 4 are interchangeable if ample funds become available?
@@GullWingInnMoclips - The 20K was for commitment. At the pace that Aptera does things, just to get to 7K vehicles is going to take a while. Remember, this is a company that has never produced a product, let alone a functioning prototype for what they intend to build. I suspect that it'll be a real slow ramp up to these big numbers that people are expecting.
@@gr8dvd - No. That will not happen. Reason is, Aptera must stop re-engineering the vehicle. Stick with something, freeze the design and build pre production prototypes. They only did wholesale changes to the body, chassis (twice), suspension, cooling and propulsion system. I doubt they even have a complete battery ready to go. It would be great if the company would be transparent but yet they are not. They just keep telling us they are but their track record says else wise. I just hope they stop with these big changes, build the pre production prototypes and start testing them. Time is running out as production starts before July, 4, 2025.
@@billsmith5960 how is the committee going?
While converting the motor inboard bring the brakes in for less unspeung weight?😊
Great analysis. I think the EMR3 is going to drop the range by ~4-5% and will reduce the winter driving capability and acceleration but it is a necessary step to get to market. This translates to a 16-20 mile range loss for the LE which is substantial but not likely to be a deal breaker for anyone. I suspect the relationship with Elaphe has been soured.
I still think the AWD will be a combination of a small vitesco(Schaeffler) hub motor and an EMR4 (induction); this combination should be more power, simpler and easier to source than the modified m700 motors from elaphe and is a natural evolution of the supply agreements and technical base of the initial launch version. Since the EMR4 is induction it can be shut off to cruise and Schaeffler should be in a better position than Elaphe to actually scale production of their hub motor. This also makes business sense because why abandon a supplier which has given you the parts to ship vehicles and has a clear path to improve and return to an old partner that couldnt produce at the price or scale Aptera needed the first time.
Weight definitely impacts range but in terms of the physics calculations at a constant speed of 55mph the addition of 30lb to a 2200lb aptera is not that bad. Apart from just generally selling that reducing weight is good i can find no reasonable combination of constants on road which would cause 1% for only 30lb. Offroad on gravel sure since the rolling drag is way higher but not on a paved road with road friction almost certainly in the 0.008-0.01 range.
I like your idea of an EMR4 together with a Schaeffler hub motor in the back to facilitate all-wheel-drive.
And agree this would make sense now that Schaeffler and Vitesco have merged.
I’m still going to buy my launch edition accelerator Aptera as soon as I can get my hands on it - but maybe that’s what will be powering my next Aptera.
@@kevinscott8642 early Aptera owners will probably do well on referrals towards their 2nd one. I'm torn if I'll deal with the import myself or wait until localized for Canada and potentially has awd option
OK, OK, OK, I will begin a workout and diet to lose 30lbs! This is a good motivation. Thank you! 😆
You sound like an engineer! I LIKE your detailed list of components in your comparison. I think you left some out. There were changes other than the inclusion of a drive shaft for the new motor. Much more complex with more pieces in the suspension.
I have played with electric bike. converted one to hubmotor then to mid drive but after a year of use, I went back to hubmotor. Mid drive ride quality was not better enough on the road to compensate for efficiency loss and simplicity.
Which does not necessarily translate to an EV. But if you want to go there... I had a 1500W hub motor on the front of a trike I built... the hall effect sensors wiring failed twice... I believe it was at least partly due to excess vibration and shock loads of the extra unsprung weight. Who knows?
sound is very quiet i.e. low volume
FWD is the best option if you have no other choice.
You are comparing 3 wheel drive to 2 wheel drive. But if we use 2 wheels the weigh difference is a wash.
Where the heat will be shedded ? Did Aptera come with the new electric consumption from this change ? Are they adding or removing battery capacity ? That would tell about the new motor efficiency.
Hub motors are a horrendously bad idea. I hope Sandy talked them out of it. At least they are on the right track now. Heavy sprung weight, insane cable runs, damaging motion of the motor through pot holes. Better late change than no change though.
My guess is 3 to 5% range hit with the same battery. Departing from the Aptera motto of having every aspect of the car about afficiency. Doing that had a compond effect. More efficient then less battery, then lighter car then better range.
And no belly cooling, so there goes another few procent efficiency
And they never proved their numbers anyway
My guesstimate :
5 solar charge miles per day
6 miles per kwh
So the launch edition will not have 400 miles range but 240 miles
@@shrimptopian3392 Waaahh!
You can scream aaaaah, or you could ask aptera to finally prove 1 claim they have been making since 2019
A hub motor has magnets and windings, vitesco motor has magnet and windings.
Hub motor has magnets on outer rotor , vitesco has magnets on inner rotor.
You can freehweel both when wires are not connected, there is an effect called cogging that can cause a tiny bit of loss of energy, but not worth worrying about.
Why are you saying you cant freeweel vitesco motor? Its same as hub motor except you have rotor in the middle and windings on the outside. I could be wrong bit it doesn't make sense to me.
you think the vitesco motor isn't capable of coasting when the car goes downhill?
The aptera will ultimately prove to be the car with the longest production development without ever being built.
Trollish court jester bleats what?
Wanna bet, clown?
No one has spoken to the weight balance differences since we’re losing the hub motor in the rear. This will effect the handling.
The initial vehicle was designed as either a front wheel drive or an all wheel drive... so, there's that concern addressed.
The Beta vehicle was in Italy for several months doing suspension checks. My guess is the Beta has been modified to have the new suspension and motor so they could test it. To build a PI set of vehicles without testing on the track would be foolish when they have Beta and could modify it. Being in Italy, prying eyes can be kept at a distance.
There are certain rules that should be followed to build a proper and safe handling 3 Wheeled car that I will talk about in a upcoming video. Thank you for watching!
@@ddessert6in Italy 🇮🇹 there are ways to prevent 🧿👁️🗨️malocchio. 🤣
The issue is efficiency will be down, driving dynamics will be reduced. With the hub motors they could control speed at each wheel but not with the EMR3 some stated they were told it was an open differential design which will be interesting to say the least. However the real cost here is the fully separate ABS integration required which will raises cost and complexity. They have never built a mule/vehicle with powered brakes yet so let us see what PI2 actually uses.
The real problem for Aptera is at $40k it is not competitive with anything and given battery price is not the driving cost in one even the 25 kWh will only be two thousand dollars less. Aptera needs to retail for $25k, not $40k as you give up two seats, all the safety expected out of vehicles that cost as much or far less, and insurance will not be inexpensive
I expect price of 50k for the first years, 40k will not be enough to survive
I reserved one and this change reduce the appeal for this car. It will be less efficient and traction control will be dumbed. Light car on snow here need better tires and better traction control that big ones. The Honda Insignt was simply dangerous in the winter here.
While I am trying to teach logic, do you see the air flow over Gamma at 9 minutes in? Notice it doesn't go down into the opening where the wiper sits? This is supposed to be the main source of cooling, and it gets none. Where they put radiators are internal, where heat can only build up until everything cooks in its own rising heat. No matter what the motor or the battery type, this silly trike will continue to fry like it has done plenty of times already. One day, a person might fry.
Wow! Great catch. I'm sure they never considered this. You were right all along! They should just scrap the whole thing to please you bleating trolls at this point. Scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to whinge about is tough work, but you can alwys be relied on to fabricate the really scary stuff!
@@GullWingInnMoclips I have experience with knowing how you think, and it's far from rational. Here is the deeper thinking - try to refute it:
"Wow! Great catch." Nothing wrong with that thinking, so far, but it quickly takes a nose-dive from here.
"I'm sure they never considered this." Nothing to be sure of. The years since 2005 has given them ages to consider it. My claim has never been that it was an oversight - I have always said that they knew they were scamming as soon as they came up with an enclosed front and skin cooling nonsense; they just never intended to sell one.
"You were right all along!" If you weren't being sarcastic I would say your thinking has begun to improve, but there are so many examples of you saying I am wrong, and they are "all along". Hence, I see through your sarcasm and recognize you are the d1m-w1t you really are. But I have an example of being right along the way, and it is on the matter of cooling: I said the skin cooling wouldn't work, and about three months ago Steve Fambro announced the skin cooling had been dropped from the LE, with a maybe later when the technology improves enough. Me right - them wrong all along, lol. I will remain right on most of my calls. Start to realize that.
"They should just scrap the whole thing to please you bleating trolls at this point." They are still making money, which is what they have wanted to make 'all along'. They continue to please themselves while fooling their fanboys. If anything, I (and other astute knockers) am just irrelevant to their real plans. I am sure they don't care how pleased we are. However, making suggestions about what they should do next is not for you or I to say. Nor does it alter the great catch.
"Scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to whinge about is tough work," But easier than you finding something to praise. I have the advantage of natural intelligence. The picture of the wind flow I used; the NBC overheating episode; the Nikki overheating after the fake 6 trips up a hill were all not found in the bottom of any barrel, and were absolutely real. Even the overheating at the X-Prize didn't occur in some barrel. And me having a whinge is about as real as that barrel you mention, lol. I'm just sticking to facts, which are devoid of emotions, unlike your "wow!".
"but you can alwys be relied on to fabricate the really scary stuff!" So - what's the relationship between complaining from the bottom of barrels and fabricating scary stuff? Better still - what's the relationship between complaining and great catches? Nothing; only to self-display your scatterbrained thinking. Believe me; you have nothing to be scared about. They will never put you in one they have sold to you. The best you can do is sit in one for a few minutes and your chances of frying are less than winning the lottery. I'm trusting you're not one of the 29 employees, of course.
@@aussieideasman8498 Tvvat did you say? Nice word salad crap flood troll action on your part. Almost seems reasonable. Good job! Most of you hacks make so little effort as to be laughable. At least you give a good try. You are a top-notch whinge master... not at all a cvnt. I commend you.
@@aussieideasman8498 Well my reply to you got censored by someone making the world-of-words safe for five year olds, so not going to that effort with you again... except to say great effort! Most trolls don't work at it much.
@@GullWingInnMoclips We all suffer the foibles of YT, but it's no excuse not to refute me. Your real excuse is because you can't. I am neither wrong, nor are you capable if I happened to be. Because of the first reason, I open it up to every intelligent person, bar none.
It does not really matter anymore anyway
The money for the pi builds is not there yet and will not come
Just like the further 200 million for production will not come
It's too little too late, their window of opportunity has come and gone
Hopefully a Chinese company will make it
The Aptera is really nice, the company sucks big time
I agree, its wasting time and money is their forte.
@@namenotshown9277 Two-Transparently-Tedious-Tag-Team-Trolls
You mean people who are honest in contrast to Aptera
You obviously HAVE NOT been paying attention. They’ve already stated TWICE that they HAVE the money for first 50 pi builds.
You obviously are gullible