Don Sadoway | Innovation in Stationary Electricity Storage: The Liquid Metal Battery
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- Опубліковано 6 лис 2016
- "Innovation in Stationary Electricity Storage: The Liquid Metal Battery"
Donald R. Sadoway, Professor, Materials Science and Engineering, MIT
Energy Seminar - October 31, 2016 - Наука та технологія
Wow!!! A man who understands both science/technology AND economics. You don't see that very often in academia. :-)
And style.
Don Sadoway is in for a treat! Fuel Free Magnet Motors, have been around since 1710, when Gottfried Leibniz was examining old Mathematical Texts from India, and noticed they already had figured out "The Calculus". Today we call the Johann Bessler "Orffyreus Engine" a Switch Release, Halbach array, Permanent Magnet Motor. Andrew Carnegie got Nikola Tesla to install them at his Steel Works, though we suspect Electromagnets were deplored, as permanent magnets were not as strong back then. Today these Switch Release Halbach array Gantry Crane Hoist Magnets safely lift two tonnes, and are remarkably compact.
Read The Andrew Carnegie Official Biography (Google Books) and learn how he was filibustered out of delivering his keynote speech, at the Steelmaker's Federation Annual Meeting. Andrew did manage to shock the entire audience by saying he could pay his workers three times the scab labour wages of his two main competitors, who were losing money hand over fist selling steel at $14 a ton (Gold was $20 a Troy oz.) and Andrew declared that at the next General Meeting he would explain how Fuel Free Energy allowed him to make a good profit selling the very best quality steel at only $9 a ton....
He never made that speech, because J.P. Morgan on instruction from his Rothschild Bank backers, bought Andrew's Steel Empire out for 4,500 metric tonnes of Gold. In fact only Paper Certificates at 5% Interest payable in Gold Bullion were delivered. "Sue Me for breach of contract, Andrew and you get nothing, your big mistake was going 50-50 with your workforce. they get nothing as well if I declare bankruptcy." In just over a week, it is the Centenary of Andrew Carnegie's departure, from a broken heart! The Bloody World War ended with a new World War looming, and FREE ENERGY buried! 1919.
These Halbach Array Switch Release Engines have gigantic torque. As testified in all the contemporary literature.and eyewitness accounts. The Diamertic polarised cylinder magnets had to be wrapped in cloth to hide the magnetising hammer blows, and were then deceptively referred to as 'Weights" (about four pounds eact) China have all the details now, so as they say "Denial is not a river in Egypt! " and even better China have access to the minerals like Lanthanum, and Neodymium. These motors can also be 3D Printed The NITTO DENKO cold sintering powder is stronger that top grade N-52's. No more phone battery charging very soon.
Successful people practice uneconomical concepts to get rich as plucky off the gullible suckers en masse!
"I'll give them to you for free, but you gotta wire them." Love it. This guy is awesome.
Thankful for sharing this video. He is great chemistry and also engineer that I thought when seeing this presentation.
At 28 minutes he states that magnesium doesn’t burn. Can somebody please explain. Magnesium is highly flammable in their pure form. I’m sure I’m missing a chemistry lesson here however I know Magnesium burns in molten or in powder or ribbon form.
Could you convert New Zealand's Tiwai Point Aluminium smelter about to be decommissioned by NZAS into cheap battery storage? Or better into a Carbon free Steel smelter using Taranaki iron sands?
2020 is there one operational?
You should’ve name it T-1000 after the Terminator 2 liquid metal Robot 🤖
These could be placed in huge sand containers to contain extra heat🎉
"I forbid to my students to work with this part of the periodic system"!
Still my favorite lecturer. Thanks Professor Sadoway.
Definitely admire this guys thinking process. Interesting how he looks at the development of the metals before the electrolyte.
Correct, as always. Our group is, and has been for 10 years, or more advocates of Dr. Sadoway. His development is needed for decentralization / re-build of the grid. Great Physicist.
Maybe an adequate physicist but is a failed businessman, entrepreneur, and inventor.
I love it when I see technology leaps like this that actually EXIST. So much of the time we see breakthroughs announced that never make it out of the lab. This one, I'm expecting good things from. Well done, Dr. Sadoway!
I was also hoping for a momentum.. unfortunatly the green climate neutral activists wont allow its scaling..
“To make something dirt cheap, make it out of dirt” Keeping that one in the bank.
You are my hero
I wonder...what if he had UNLIMITED funding...
Local dirt.
Sand battery is possible just use salt and water carbon plates
We could have it @@henrygustav7948 , only if we set our minds in the right way and stop with all this bullshit called wars, politic and economic tricks that are played now... Humanity has an enormous potential, almost endless...
50 years ago I was working for a small electronics manufacturer that did something amazing. They hired bright young people and threw them into a lab where they could sink or swim and he wasn't concerned with what letters came after their names. The result was a small company that beat the pants off large competitors because we never worried about trying something new. the company fo;ded 25 years ago when the founder retired and sold it to a consortium that didn't understand how the place worked.
All the technical people scattered to the winds and while nobody got rich, they all used the training they got at that small company to grow in their fields and hopefully show the incoming talent how to think outside the box.
@@bobc3895 What was the name of this company?
Hyperion Industries, Watertown, MA i was lucky because it was a small company I got to do EVERYTHING, big companies tend to keep you in a very tightly strictured cubby hole. i started as a jr technician and worked my way up to engineering and management with nothing more than a high school education in electronics and a willingness to learn.
Zero fade after loads and loads of full cycles is awesome! A lot of this is great stuff.
He is brilliant. I love his style and use of clever humor. VERY dense info, natural professor. Reminds me of my own top teacher Douglas Raymond.
Outstanding. That really was excellent.
Never had a prof like this when I was in school. Quite a dissertation!
Absolutely fabulous lecture. I can not recall when I recently or ever listen/read to quarter an hour speech that so comprehends and logical. Something so spectacular that even Me with nature to find defects or improve cannot find a fault or better. Congratulation Professor.
Thank you and congratulation for the lecture on the Philosophy we should have when we are involved in the fields of science and technology: to mantain a free mind.
Acadian changes earth , proud of you Don. Thank-you brother and stay safe many greed brokers must be watching this intently
Great Show....Heck of the development. Reason it Out...
Wow....just...I'm speechless Wowed. This changes everything. I am so glad for the internet and what it has done for the human race to spread these idea's so others like myself so we can add and better life not just for people but for all life on the planet.
there are many concepts of large batteries now the nanoflow is one too
my worries is the patent system buries them to make extra money
Absolutely awesome! What an inspiration.
Electricity is reinvented I thank you for your wonderful work and open mind.
First class interesting lecture.Brilliant.
This works because it doesn't have to be portable.
It's stationary, so the weight and the bulk won't matter.
I can imagine a multiple story building size battery for the community use.
Other way of saying it is it's a step above lead-acid battery.
For the portable devices and transportation, they still have to come up with something else other than Li-Ion.
I think.
We'll need many more battery technologies for different uses.
There probably won't be one dominant technology.
Assembly is almost impossible since no one has figured out the bus work on top of the cells (make a bus work that all you have to do is bolt together).
this competing for large storage backup on an industrial scale against gas/oil backup generators and pumping water up a hill, it's not about mobility.
if Li-Polymer batteries can be improved they would be the next step past Li-Ion for mobility - some variations of Li-Ion are expected to be out commercially in the next few years, but none of these are capable on large scales of liquid metal.
think of all the buildings amazon is putting on the market for availability like old K-Marts or old Blockbusters centralized and dirt cheap
One area of transportation which may be suitable for this battery is shipping where weight is less a concern.
I just watched this in August, 2019. Can anybody out there tell me how this project has progressed since October, 2016?
there you go to
ua-cam.com/video/qRpQL1vFWLg/v-deo.html
They report that they won't finish the first major commercial deployment until 2023, which is a bit surprising given that they had photos of numerous apparently-working cells in 2016. ambri.com/business/
Fascinating! I solder electronics under a microscope for a living, solder is made of tin and lead, and solder's melting point is BELOW that of tin or lead. This lecture reminded me of that.
Alloys are funky things, aren’t they?
I checked out Ambri's website. Like this video it's all promotion of the concept, but nothing about testing, or more specifically, commercial testing. I'm not saying this idea won't work or he's a fraud. However, I want to see specific steps that will be taken by Ambri to bring this concept to fruition and a timeline to do so. I might excuse Dr Sadoway's lecture for not giving us a demonstration of mundane business planning , but Ambri's website needs to do exactly that to show that this company and its product is for real.
www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ambri-is-still-alive-and-chasing-its-liquid-metal-battery-dreams#gs.s9JbZBSK
But he gives the answer to this in the lecture. The first and main investor was TotalFinaElf. The oil and gas company. They bought in, to squash this project, the O&G companies do this all the time. I worked for Chevron and you wouldn't believe how many alternative energy patents they own - all bought from original inventors. Just to make sure they never make it out into the world.
You are dreaming if you think this will come to market before 2050
@@karlp8484 Sir, IMO, the only problem with this "theory" is that patents only last from 14 to 20 years. After the patent expires, the technology is public and can be used by anyone so, if the technology is viable/valid, why haven't private investors taken this to market?
If there really was a 150 mpg carburetor out there (like I heard back in the 70's), one would think some car company, like Chrysler back then, GM or a independent, when it was going broke would market it?
This is the Most Important Invention of the Century.
The more I see about this man, the more I like him (Battle-hardened! Tenured means never having to say you're sorry!). He has a sense of humor, as well. I wish him all success! P.S. I subscribed! Great stuff!
Really great presentation! Don could do stand up if he gets bored with chemistry!
I liked the Excitement, But where are they NOW!!!!
probably bought out by oil cos and retired
Can the thermal losses be captured and used for space heating, e.g. like co-generation?
I can't see why not. Though it depends on how well the thermal management and insulation works. Ideally there shouldn't be too much heat external, or that would need be replenished in some way, costing energy, as would taking energy out from inside the insulation boundary.
It is swings and roundabouts. However on larger installations it way be feasible, certainly for a heating source.
It is always fun to talk to people who understand!
I love this concept. Hope it comes to fruition at commercial scale. Will work fine for transport applications too, of course. An issue for longer term storage in these liquid metal cells could be keeping a battery pack at its operating temperature. I guess you could play self-charge/discharge games by having a couple of cells at a low state of charge, then by grouping up pairs of batteries in series you get higher voltage than a single cell, then the pair can 'charge' the low cells (which are connected in parallel with a lower voltage), keeping both warm, then the now-discharged cells can be the sink for the next pair. The BMS can run this game on any cell whose temperature is getting too low. There will be some losses, but it is a method to keep the pack temperatures where required.
love what your doing Professor Sadoway. may God speed. Perhaps some sort of tubing exchanger could be incorporated as a cooking and space heating benefit. Also I currently use about 10 KWHr per day and probably half of that is for the refrigerator, if you could give some thought to cold with your chemical wizardry it might also prove fruitful for the world. You remind me of that song "WE ARE THE WORLD" good luck.
Fascinating, Thank you
Fascinating, Thank you
I am not a rocket scientist but every thing I heard maid seance I am watching this for the second time but Dr Sadoway makes a lot of seance to me.The science is complicated but that don't mean it don't make seance good luck
The best kind of Professor, expects better results from the uncluttered minds of the Students who still rely on his long-term knowledgeable delegation to begin acquisition of practical experience, but with a different and current perspective.
Is the Grid Customer/consumer always right? The Henry Ford is attributed to the idea that if he'd asked the public what they wanted, they would have said "faster horses".
And to Steve Jobs can be attributed the great popularization of 'people want you to tell them the technology they should want'. I suspect the great majority of 'Grid Customers' mostly care that the Electricity Fairy provide ample reasonably consistent electricity at the lowest possible "deregulated" cost, and consideration of storage of "charge/current buffering" as in these large distributed-meighborhood projects (the GURL system of space conditioning is another example in a different field) requires more careful education to prioritize.
Fantastic lecture!
"No computational materials science, no rapid throughput screening doo dah doo dah, I sat and I looked at this thing and figured it out by raw intellect."
Brilliant man!
All very good but all we need to know really is: the duration of the battery, the efficiency of the battery, the energy density per kg and volume of the battery and the cost of storing 1kWh. Simple.
He's a fraud. He doesn't have the technology yet. He admits that pumped hydro is cheaper and it's just water in a damn Dan.
On this cell, once charged how do you keep the liquid metal melted with no current flow as in simple storage? In the storage is there going to need a constant current flow , and would there be losses involved to maintain the charge ?
Yes but the question is how long can they stay hot and melted salts be viable if they were static with no charge or drain current ?
the issue of whether the unit generates energy on it's own or not determines if it is a battery, or a giant capacitor. The description seems to indicate capacitor.
Ummmm you do know a capacitor IS a battery right?
@@BracaPhoto you do know the difference between a capacitor and a battery, right?
They are superficially the same in that they can charge and discharge, but there are other issues that make them different.
Instant empathy with that (scientific) guy.
So this was in 2016 and China has not grown an industry from this mans work, astounding.
Great video, fully watched.
Only thing which was irritating is Amp hours rather than Watt hours :|
Thought he said in video that voltage = 1V, so it's same as Watt hour, in the presentation they could had used more scientific Wh (watt hour) notation.
ampere-hours are a pretty standard measure of battery performance, so perhaps think of this as the same 'legacy' as American preference to express engine power in hp instead of kW.
I LIKE this dude. Love his "style"...
The note regarding surface tension, together with the sketches, seem to imply much larger cells - did I miss the reason why they are small?
Are these actually deployed anywhere? And so like the Tesla grid battery in South Australia, how much would a similarly sized one of yours cost?
The numbers I've heard indicate that Tesla lost tons of money on the Australian battery. Given some of the numbers he presented (and by the way he DOES have prototypes running at this point...) -- The smaller cells with on-going stress tests showing the lack of degradation over cycles... I'd put the batteries in a shed in my back yard. The battery in Australia also doesn't really have the problem of cold temperature, where the LI batteries fail if you try to charge them below about 0 C. The solution there is electric heating. But that will take many watts of power.
@@Billblom Probably a better solution is a 'ground source heat pump' style loop combined with good superinsulation in the shed structure. For the running cost of a very small circulating pump with a fan on it, this produces reasonably consistent 55-56 degree at the inside heat exchanger; you could always use some of this as 'source' for a dedicated refrigerator-compressor-sized heat pump running as a "heater" only (no reversing valves and few potential failure points) if you need a higher rate of heat transfer to air.
@@wizlish The ground water is not very far down... Having a 5 to 7 ohm ground reading here (done with a megger) means the water is close by for heating and cooling. Keeping the system "happy" would be easy when the shed is well insulated. I had been looking at a vid where the guy that put together his battery system simply put the batteries in a well insulated box, and lined the box with some heating blankets that drew about 20 watts... The temp was set for 50 on them, so there would be no overheating because of the heat. (Along with a couple of thermocouples tied to a small computer that would turn off the power to the heating system). I need to look into a ground source for the house here.. the installation would be ugly, lawn wise, but would cut the costs of heating and cooling dramatically.
this reminds me of the introduction of the ice machines that was disruptive to the 'natural ice' industry :-)
Nice work
Little known fact: poorly maintained ice makers can incubate and spread disease.
@@NibsNiven Interesting... any supporting links would be appreciated
every single time I've seen an oil company invest in some kind of new energy technology, that tech has NEVER come to fruition. A company in TX was developing jet fuel producing microbes. they made a test flight from TX to CA using microbe generated fuel. it was working great. once the oil company bought them, though, they put out a press release saying that hopefully in 20 years, they would finally have some fuel to show.
the shell eco marathon has been an ongoing joke since the 1940's, when the winner got 150MPG... the current record there is some crazy number like 26,000 MPG... so where is any of the tech?
Stanford Ovshinsky was just building 3 manufacturing plants to be able to make enough asphalt based solar shingles to roof the world. once cheveron got a hold of the company the first thing they did was shut all that down.
so why do you expect that taking money from an oil company will do anything whatsoever except completely thwart your efforts, while keeping you in a constant state of anticipation of some kind of pending release of your technology?
Doesnt make sense that capitalist don't capitalize on new things
@@Pernection Counter Intuitive
maybe because it's not the only investidor
Bill Gates is funding it as well, and I don't think he has any plans to preserve oil status quo.
Ya don't wanna ruin the economy, lol.... Whoever said the "economy" was supposed to be "economical"? Not a capitalist I tell ya.
Riot4Peace the best economy happens when we innovate so much it puts the old economy out of business over and over again.
Brilliant
Wonderful talk
But smoke and mirrors
Very nice presentation thank you
Could you mix water with the salt ? And use metals that melt at low temperature as long as its melting point is under the boiling point of water if not water a liquid will work
This man is a true professor! He is not only confident in his research but he pushed passed the Nay Sayers... He is now an authority in his field but sounds very humble (I doubt his grad students feel that way - I'm sure he's a slave driver) - no one got anywhere worth anything without working hard though. He clearly has studied philosophy and the art of learning and first hand learned how to sell a used car to a masarati driver. Sweated out that lecture in a full suit... boss. I wouldn't shake his hand, I'd give him a high 5.
Can you put this thing on a ship, as in a small cargo ship, or explorer ship?
The *PowerWall* may be expensive, but the first time the neighborhood lost power and I didn’t notice?
*_Priceless._*
Doesnt the Powerwall need an active internet connection to work?
@@pjpa305 ??? Why would it need ANY connection to ANYTHING? With a Powerwall battery of sufficient size, you can be completely off-grid. That is actually how millions of homes today already are.
@@billdale1 That is why I asked. I watched a review on it recently. And that was a major complaint. That because it needed connection to Tesla's servers to operate, that if the grid goes down, your "off the grid" power also goes down. It would be a major draw back of the power wall for me. Hence my question to someone who owns one...
. PJ Pa No. Internet connectivity is only needed to read the battery's state and change parameters. It can charge and discharge independently.
@@tomswiftTTT Thanks Mike!
How many of those 8'' battery canisters would be needed to power a Tesla for 4 or 5 hundred miles?
...and the aluminum plant emits how much CO2??
Great presentation.
Cost per kilowatt hour assembled and on site about the same as stored hydro, and much, much cheaper than lithium, SO WHERE IS IT? Follow up please?
They had it at $500 per kWh in the chart for the whole system. That's what current LiFeOP4 battery systems are already selling for. With Lithium batteries still having a chance of a 2x improvement in the next years. They probably have to go back to the drawing board to get them cheaper.
I was wondering if it is suitable for off grid solar power? I guess it would have to be used with hybro or wind turbines also. To keep it from cooling. If there is no sun for a while. And is there a minimum operating current? I'd like to have about 30 large cells , my off grid lithium ion bank is 29.4v, so I guess 28-29 cells @1v each? And at what cost?
how would this pair up with a home solar system. cost and efficiency
Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for semi trucks would be large untapped market... noisy, troublesome, fuel consuming, environmentally dangerous. Would be awesome to see in trucking industry if size permitted. Thanks
Tesla effort in Australia provided proof of concept with lithium battery less expensive than old coal and natural gas peaker plants!
Now Ca, South Korea, and Australia lining up larger battery projects.
So, the issues of how to use batteries should be sorted out by the time, if ever, this guy, or someone else, makes a demonstration level plant-and demonstrates much lower costs. There are multiple professors out there with fantastic sounding battery concepts. Not to be discouraged-but many try and few are successful
What do they have for bateries to store solar for home use?
I think this would be good for cyclone/hurricane areas where each house could have an onsite battery charged by solar and hooked into a local grid. In the case of storm damage to the grid, each house would be able to stay powered and the grid of batteries could supply an area even if some houses do not have solar panels until that grid can be repaired. This means that neighbourhoods can keep running, food supplies can be kept fresh, local stores and fuel stations can draw from the local neighbourhood batteries to keep operating until utilities can be reconnected. Command electronics over the grid (similar to current technology where internet can be transmitted over the household electrical wiring) can be used to ensure batteries can cycle from the local solar panels while the household draws from the grid.
It would probable speed up community recovery.
Game changer
Not for existing private homes but for existing bulk energy monopolies.
Thank you
Transparent Aluminum (Aluminum Oxynitride) could it be used to make a transparent battery?
Paul Andrews: what advantage or application do you see in using transparent aluminum?
I understand the superior potential of his batteries for grid purposes, but I would like to know if this kind of battery is compatible with eletric cars.
As nobody made this question, i'd apreciate if someone could answer.
Think about it geometrically: the volume grows by the law of cubes, but surface by the law of squares.
There is heat to maintain in these batteries for them to keep functioning and putting out power, whether they’re actively being used or not. Perhaps a different type of battery can be used to do the initial heating. But, what is unclear to me is how much of the potential output requires heat as input.
If used in electric cars, oddly, it’d make the most sense in always-rolling vehicles that keep getting charged many times per day due to being used heavily. For your typical family car, I believe it’d have too much heat loss to make a lot of sense, which would also require a lot of power for recharging them. However, on the bright side, no battery fade in the lifespan of the electric car driver, especially of a family car!
And, as explained in the video, it’d be even safer in an accident or puncture: no thermal runaway, it’d just seal itself as it cooled. The biggest risk in my assessment would be how much insulation got damaged, and the latent heat setting off flammable things such as dried grass and leaves.
Current electric car battery round trip efficiencies are around 95% according to a web search, and thermal management is required for them as well, but to keep them from degrading, so they also discharge over time when not actively being used. As long as the charging costs are lower than gasoline, it’s still a win for the charge/refuel equation. What I don’t have numbers on are the weights of the various liquid metal battery chemistries for their energy storage: I suspect they're notably heavier, so that may not work in their favor for cars and efficiency,
Running small-scale laboratory prototypes is fine, but for this technology to get off the ground, Ambri needs to partner with a public utility to build a pilot plant where the technology can be exercised and demonstrated in a real-world situation. This could be done even if the first batteries are inefficiently hand-built, without the automation envisioned for a full-scale factory.
Yes. I'm wondering in scaling to the extent of using concrete enclosures, with suitable refractory and steel linings. As he said the larger the more efficient and he also reported relatively low pressures.
It is a very interesting idea.
I'm sure that given some experimentation with Bismuth and some other similar metals they will find lower temp metals that will make the cells more efficient.
I'm thinking in particular of the many different low melting point Bismuth alloys, such a fields metal, etc. There are also quite a number of different Lead alloys with different melting points. I'm sure there will be a few recopies that could yield some improvements.
instead of using salt can you use quartz i meant to say
There are multiple references to Ah - but without specification of the voltage. The voltage is not always the same. So there is something really important missing, right?
No, there isn't. Much electrochemistry is only concerned with the charge that is moved, which is directly measurable in amps (i.e. cumulative coulomb transfer) and not the rate. Hence you commonly see battery ratings in amp/hr and not "watt-hour". At least part of this is that the output voltage observed in many practical battery chemistries is dependent on the state of 'charge' and may vary substantially depending on the rate or state of discharge. Be careful when comparing primary electrochemical battery design to reversible storage batteries, too.
This is an awesome presentation and he seems like a genius, BUT THEY REALLY NEED TO SIMPLIFY THEIR MESSAGE AND HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM, A LOT OF THESE TECH SCIENCE GUYS FORGET TO HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM
I love that quick discussion on flow Batteries at the very end. I believe in flow batteries but they certainly appear to be passing through the valley of death.
Ich dont think so. I mean Vanadium is an example of non abundant element and is expensive.
In this case I could envision something like pumping the Mg and the Sb and solidify/freeze dry them (respective the MgSb alloy into solid) for storage. And later you can remelt them when needed
Anyway flow batteries are a technology as batteries with certain pros and cons. You could also be tempted ot say that batteries are not going to make it because capacities are too small or materials too expensive. Also, cell voltage versus iR drop in the electrolyte I think is important for the overall efficiency.
Molten salt doesnt have a high reisistance, plus as he said reaction velocities are much increased at higher temperatures and I really do think that a molten metal flow battery could eventually be one of many possible solutions
Great discovery... but why its not in use yet.?
How long will it take to charge and how fast can we discharge it?
A Lithium ion Tesla battery can go from 10-80 in 20 minits and to a 100 in 2 hours, how about your battery?
Also, is it possible to put this battery in a car? Or is the temperature thing a problem?
It's not for cars!!! It's for the Grid.
weight
He stated that it is capable of very high current density. In other words, power can come out quickly. Unlike the Lithium Ion Batteries in the Tesla, you can increase the capacity of the Aluminum/Antimony battery by making a bigger pool of Aluminum and a bigger pool of Antimony. And if you make the capacity very large, then it will take you a long time to discharge it. So how quickly you can discharge it depends on how big those "pools" are.
@@jwestney2859 Keep in mind that in a circulating battery, charge density can be independent of discharge rate. So 'how much charge is in the battery system" is very different from "how much" or "how quickly" can I get charge out of the battery as circuit electricity. 'Current density' here refers to the part of the structure that does the latter, and it's important for charge rate, but part of the idea here is that the 'charged' liquid can be continuously circulated out of the actual 'electrochemical' structure, at which point it has become a 'carrier fuel' as much as, say, syndiesel or liquid products of hydrogenation, and theoretically stored and pumped much as liquid fuels are.
This video was a "recommended for you" on my youtube page, and I had just watched the CBS video talking about this man and his "revolutionary technology." What struck me is that there was not one bit of real information about HOW this battery was supposed to work, why it was inexpensive, and how it could last into a long cycle of use. I wonder if anyone else thought of that as being just a tiny bit too vague......? At least in this presentation, we have some specificity about the theory. Clearly, this can fit in with the current (sic) grid technology, since the battery can be charged overnight by the grid in summer, and discharge during the day during the high air conditioning load to help prevent brownouts.
No information on how it works?!? Did you actually WATCH it???
@@billdale1 Good question. I am an EE not a chemistry expert and I found this presentation to be very understandable and quite in depth as to how this battery will function. Unfortunately it seems energy has become a highly fractured religion.
Because the CBC audience is not the same as the Stanford audience.
Art Houston - OK, but in this video Prof. Sadoway DID discuss the huge economic benefits of what I call "peak shaving" (the highways analogy). We also need grid and neighbourhood level storage to support the intermittent-power producing renewables. Now, if the 'powers that be' could revise the regulatory framework and remove assorted roadblocks we could get somewhere in making civilization more efficient and sustainable.
Ok. So, where is it? Having said that. . . Very interesting talk, on many levels
what is the weight per amp hour ratio?
Interesting. How is the battery initialized? Once manufactured the working elements have to be melted for it to function. Does it use a built in heating element or a more clever method of some sort. I take it that it's the charge and discharge heating that keeps the internal parts molten but even with the best insulation it wouldn't take long to solidify. Apparently it's best application would be something like solar which would need a back up power source each night. Or did I miss the point somewhere? Out of the box thinking like this is sorely needed. Hope you and the company are successful!
Part of the reason it's designed to be stationary is the high temperature -- see the history of sodium/sulfur batteries for a parallel. (PS: modern nanoinsulation either with multiple shields or aerogel has made sodium/sulfur an attractive chemistry for many portable applications again) An assumption for 'grid' power is that you use the storage to even out the cyclical supply from many kinds of renewable, so you don't 'cycle' the battery temperature once it is brought to operation. Means to heat a cold battery up to operating temperature might be considered as transient as full blackstart at conventional primary generation plants
An intellectual TOUR-DE-FORCE. Maybe he IS the next Volta. He IS quite inspiring. I would NOT bet against him!! LOVE the idea of a small solar FARM, with neighborhood (or village) capacity. BRILLIANT!!! Whatta MIND!!
So can i get the stuff to make one of these at Home Depot or Nah?
So! Where do I get one to power my home.
You're drawings look like a tank sized unit, but your product is 10x10 cm. Would municipal systems be on the scale of meters or are there problems with making large liquid metal batteries?
thanks
What is the current status of the project? Have they killed it already? And if not, will the batteries be available in all sizes for anyone to buy?
This and ITER fusion will change the world. Shalom
There is plenty of non-refrigeration long distance food distribution. Salting, drying, and canning.
How hard is it to restart completely frozen batteries? How much energy does it take? Are they built for that? Where are the heating electrodes for cold start? ...
Missing chart for comparison flowbatteries energy density ecologic impact ...
There was that flow battery with a drinkable liquid (water and iron...) those units ship in shipping containers?
Battery Fueled by Iron and Water Could Transform the Power Grid (ESS Inc. Wilsonville OR):
ua-cam.com/video/HmtI8Wat7rY/v-deo.html
02:41 50kW/400kWh one shipping container probably 40feet
Used containers ^^:
www.mrbox.co.uk/shipping-containers/
you just charge them and they get hot.
You don't have to 'restart' a frozen battery, you just have to thaw it to where the charge carriers in the electrolyte can actually move (this being at a lower temperature than the nominal phase change of water around 32 degrees F)
Part of the 'historical' problem with frozen batteries is that water expands when it freezes, and this can damage the internal structure. Another part of the problem is that 'charging' a frozen battery doesn't automatically "melt the freezing" first and then proceed to fill up the capacity. One of the 'paradigm changes' with these circulated-electrolyte batteries (where so much of the "charge" is in the distributed reservoir and not in the 'battery' section that actually moves electrons in circuits) is that you can relatively easily drain them (into an insulated and/or heated 'tank') if they are not being used, or subject to freezing, and then refilled at need, so the issues with trying to charge ice don't ever practically arise...
Because it relies on heat retention to keep it liquid is it safe to say this isn't very viable for long term energy storage, but amazing for grid balancing and daily balancing for renewables?
That’s was my take.
There’s a lot of solar being added ad hoc. ie, without benefiting master planning, or any planning. So rapid absorption and return is key.
Almost like a capacitor. And he pointed out that a design goal is diurnal, not like continually storing power for winter.
So I think that there may be an environmental condition of warmer climes, or underground.
Either way, this a 3 yr old presentation. So it’s something to catch up on.
look up Oliver Heavyside.. and a book,"the dielectric field".
Parking lots use to be sized for Christmas shopping. That is why they are so massive. I don't understand this technology but there has to be other ways. Considering this is 3 years old I guess it is operational now but I'm still using a Trojan T105.