All the plumbing code books have a table that shows how many DFUs a pipe can handle at 1/8 1/4 1/2 slope. The higher the slope the more DFUs the pipe can handle. DFUs is drainage fixture units for anyone who doesn't know.
I have a kitchen sink that was installed with to many short pieces and 45's to grab trash. Then comes the grease and then the clogs after a couple of years. And I have a grease and soap clog. The construction plumbers didn't follow my placement of where I wanted a washing machine placed under the sink in the basement for THEIR ease and just common sense. I installed a cleanout under the trap under the sink. I also don't skimp on using water in the kitchen. I have not had to clean out the pipe since we started using more water in the kitchen. Run the water a little before needing it and a little after finishing a task.
agree and being from the upc code I hate hearing guys say you cant have more than 1/8 inch per foot we gotta have 1/4 min. but i think they knew what they were doing when the called for minimum fall there is no maximum fall and I think there is a reason and that reason is excess fall hardly ever causes issues . I still think 1/8 inch inferior to1/4 inch per foot unless youve got bigger pipe like 6 inch but also on super long runs it would be too deep
@@jeffreyplumber1975 While there's not a stated maximum, there's footnotes which note that excessive grade can cause the fluid to outflow the effluent and leave effluent behind to sit and create blockages over time. So while sometimes you have to do what you have to do, you generally want to keep from being ridiculous with it. As an installer, to nvrdwn's point, I've never seen a situation where I've had to have 1/2" of fall or more. Maybe once ever on a reno?
Same here. I’ve never come across a job that stopped up more often because of too much fall. People say it because there’s logic to it but never think it through. If it was a problem, then every rough I’ve done that had an offset with 22’s would have issues. Theres also lots of places where I’ve had to roll a 90 to some oddball angle to connect to something else. This would have issues. If it is an issue, where does it change back to being okay. Is it vertical (for non plumbers, in plumbing vertical means anything from 45 def to plumb). Not to get into too much detail but there’s definitely solids that would stick in a 45 degree pipe without water. Is it only limited to sewer? With how luch grease goes down a kitchen sink line, I want that thing to be moving as fast as possible. I don’t want to give it any more time to solidify. I’m long winded but point being if this were true we’d have a lot more problems than we do.
Commercial Plumber here I've been installing large(20 story)multifamily buildings over the past few years. One of the main reasons you don't want too much fall in a system is due to the venting needing to have the proper amount of air pressure so that the water in the ptraps are not sucked out, and there is still enough air flow to properly vent the system. If you think about a 200 foot run of eight inch pipe that is at a 1/2" vs 1/16" that would be a huge difference in not only the predicted amount of force at the next joint requiring a ridiculous amount of extra support to stop the potential force on that 90(that happens also happens on storm drains that use a short sweep to catch a vertical) or it will pop off. And of course now you have a crazy amount of air pressure going up pulling every p trap out for the next 4 floors(idk how many that would pull tbh but definitely that example would ruin a plumbing system if set at that kind of grade because of the venting.)
@@lionheart1126Any water in the line should suck from vent, if it doesnt it’s improperly vented. It sounds like you’re talking about right past the trap before it flattens out. Yes you don’t want that too sloped. As for the rest Water doesn’t fill the pipe as it moves so it only really pushes air in vertical pipes. A pipe graded at 1/2” wouldn’t push or pull air, it would flatten out. Also any vertical pipe would gather much more momentum than horizontal. So are you not allowed to install vertical pipe because it would be too hard on 90s. This is why you use long sweeps or preferably 45s. All that momentum moves on down the pipe. Do multistory buildings not use vertical piping?
always do about an 1/8 or a bit more of fall on it. The standard here is every 10’ of pipe we use is about 2-1/2 inches for fall but doing ground roughs it’s hard to keep it that way unless you want out of your ditch lol.
Good point on the trap arms. ICC codes lengths seem to be based on 1/4 "/ft. That would be the max pitch, unless maybe you decrease the trap arm lengths...
Something else to consider is that the amount of fall has an effect on your venting distance. Basically, a trap arm sloped at 1/2” per foot will result in no vent at the trap at half the distance of a trap arm sloped at 1/4” per foot. In every code I have read, all drains sized below 3” must have 1/4” per foot slope - not an 1/8” and not a 1/2”. Everything 3” and above can be sloped from 1/4” to 1/2”. However, if you are running a trap arm to a 3” or 4” trap, you need to stick with 1/8” to 1/4” to remain within the maximum venting distance from the vent to the trap.
Exactly. To add to this, the min/max grade codes are more for maintaining momentum. Just as in venting, too much flow can cause issues and too little flow can cause clogs. It's why we use long sweeps on verticals: maintaining momentum. While splatter stoppage and pitting, from too much fall, may not be as bad an issue with pvc and abs, it still is with cast iron, but the abrupt slowing can cause issues as well.
In cities that have combined sanitary and storm sewers, they often have the bottoms of the main lines sloping to the center with a pronounced dip in the center. That is to ensure that waste products are washed into the dip and that all the water produced by the sanitary system will flow through that dip so it can carry hundreds of blocks of sanitary sewage down the pipe to the treatment plant. If you see the sewer line they installed in centuries old city, you will see that the made them teardrop shaped with the small end down for the exact same reason, to ensure that human waste would properly flow down the pip with only the water used to flush human waste into the pipe. Of course, if they get a heavy rain, that combined system will ensure that they waste is washed down the pipe really good but can also overwhelm the sanitary treatment plants which will have to divert ALL of the water flow around the treatment plant to prevent the treatment plant from being damaged. That also means that all of the raw untreated human waste put into the system during the rain will be washed into a waterway for a downstream city's fresh water treatment system to deal with. I am glad that I live where all of the cities storm sewer and sanitary sewer systems are totally separate.
Always run at 1/4 per foot - it covers everything from toilet to kitchen drains with zero issues - and the trap to vent distance always passed every inspection I was ever part of.
I have my dad's old metal level with adjustable bubble and i forgot that it was a plumber's level, and it was for adjusting pipe slope he had a lot of interesting old tools
When installing a 4x4x3 wye horizontally how do i put the grade level on it to make sure the wye arm is pitched correctly? There doesn't appear to be any reference surfaces on the outside of the wye to allow this measurement. Do i just put a small length of pipe in and use that?
how do you calculate the city main sewer dept you need in order to have the proper fall lets say your master bed room is 80 feet from going into the main sewer line located in your front yard how deep do you need the city sewer line to be in order to achieve the 1/4/per foot? so basically if i reroute my sewer line how many feet in the front yard i need the city sewer line to be in order to have proper pitch.
@@patrickday4206all the plumbing code books have a table that shows how many DFUs a pipe can handle at 1/8 1/4 1/2 slope. The higher the slope the more DFUs the pipe can handle. DFUs is drainage fixture units for anyone who doesn't know.
Awesome video, But i really wish you would've done real life scenario with that clear pipe, and show when the water out runs it and leaves solids behind. hawk tuah = 😂😂😂😂😂😂
What’s up, Roger? Have you heard of NYC Hydro? He’s another UA-camr. I thought that would be cool if y’all did a collaboration. Also, I would like to know the most hated plumbing brand by you. Mine is Zurn.
Zurn?! That footage of the solids being flushed is from Zurn’s testing facility! That was one of the coolest places I’ve been..what don’t you like about them?
Been told if there’s a thing as too much fall explain more than one story perfect 90 degrees. Also pipe diameter is not to be forgotten, 6” can dang near level. I believe we use enough water throughout our castles to keep washing out leftover debris.
Does grade matter on vents? Air is just air right? Can't you just make the vents level? I always give them an 1/8 per foot because that's what I was told
As someone mentioned it depends on the vent but to add to it, most vents you want a bit of slope since most are just pipes without caps so water or condensate from city gases will enter and use your vent to help the main vent breath too. So you don't want water/ vapour pooling in an elbow, mid pipe, or san tee, etc, just because it was back graded 1/16, 1 /8, etc. By all accounts the Sanatary tee has a built in slope it's subtle when placed perfectly level, and that ensures in correct installs water won't pool up.
i measure based off how fast the bubble reaches full bubble. at a quarter the line should split the bubble. if it goes full bubble it needs to reach that point very slow. that tells me its a quarter plus.
Roger. right now I'm having trouble with a city inspector understanding what your talking about in this video. job site has sewer run about 400' to city main over a big hill. I'm wanting to do step down, city is say No, not code.
On a horizontal pipe you need to monitor the weir the lower end can't be to low or it will cause a problem the water will not flow it will surge. Pulling a vacuum and sucking the water out of the traps. Do it right or don't do it.
never ever ever after 38 years of being a plumber seen water out run solids. you are gonna take a shower eventually. you’re gonna drain a sink. if you did leave a turd behind you are gonna hit it with a solid wall of grey water at some point and it’s gone. Absolutely no way it’s gonna clog, never seen it never will and i exceeded 1/4 per ft in my own house never a problem.
Initially, I was taught that too much fall can cause an issue, but pretty much all of the old head/supervisors have told me it's not an issue. Pretty much been told "cant have too much pitch" In my head, this makes sense, because here we have houses built on huge hills with extremely steep driveways; wouldn't the main sewer line leaving the house just be soaring at that point? And it doesnt seem to cause problems. So Id be curious if anyone has additional input on this.
I would say that maybe that's true on old fixtures. But there's less water now with these water saving toilets. So too much fall and the water might run away from the shit
I think the more important consideration is that it's easier to add grade than remove it without botching a system or creating a headache for yourself. Staying closer to minimums allows for digging shallower trenches for less hassle with clay and hard ground, or allowing for higher ceiling if running under joists, or an ability to run in joists when more grade wouldn't give you enough room allowing for more efficient routing of pipes and avoidance of other trades like HVAC guys or preventing having to box out a section. While in theory fluids can outflow effluents with more grade, in practice this doesn't happen very often. However, there are countless arguments to be made for staying near or slightly more pitched than the minimum purely for a better designed system and better build for the client. Any plumber who just adds grade simply because he can add grade and it won't block up down the road is just an ignorant tradesman who's ignoring the multitude of other reasons for doing so. If you're adding grade there should be an actual reason for doing so beyond "I felt like it" because that's just a lazy attitude.
@@zeb5478I have zeb. It had tons of grease built up at the bottom but serviced an entire 3 floor apartment. You just haven’t done commercial plumbing and probably have no experience in vertical plumbing. Not saying it might not take longer but having vertical pipes doesn’t just cure all problems.
No such thing as too much fall. Max slope is a vertical pipe how the heck is that problematic maybe we should have no vertical pipes and run all stacks with a 1/4 fall horizontally inside of buildings. LOL
BS, you can not have too much fall. Velocity is our friend. Take your theory to the maximum extreme and go vertical. Never saw a soil stack with a stoppage.
I literally laughed out loud at the "hock toeey." Well played, my friend.
laughter out loud!!!!!!
I never knew they made a grade level. Thats awesome 👌
I just went and added it to my cart.
😊good video thanks man have a great safe day
Thanks, you too!
All the plumbing code books have a table that shows how many DFUs a pipe can handle at 1/8 1/4 1/2 slope. The higher the slope the more DFUs the pipe can handle. DFUs is drainage fixture units for anyone who doesn't know.
Thank you for this 👍🇺🇸
Raise your hand if you watched this while droppin deuce. ✋🏻
✋🏾
🙋🏻♂️
It's funny, this popped up in the feed as I'm sitting down making a deposit
Watched while fixing my pool plumbing!
I just sat down
I have a kitchen sink that was installed with to many short pieces and 45's to grab trash.
Then comes the grease and then the clogs after a couple of years.
And I have a grease and soap clog.
The construction plumbers didn't follow my placement of where I wanted a washing machine placed under the sink in the basement for THEIR ease and just common sense. I installed a cleanout under the trap under the sink. I also don't skimp on using water in the kitchen.
I have not had to clean out the pipe since we started using more water in the kitchen.
Run the water a little before needing it and a little after finishing a task.
My outhouse has 180° fall, it has NEVER clogged up, so that tells you too much isn't always bad!
I've heard that argument against that much fall however being a service plumber I've never seen 1/2 or more fall cause an issue.
agree and being from the upc code I hate hearing guys say you cant have more than 1/8 inch per foot we gotta have 1/4 min. but i think they knew what they were doing when the called for minimum fall there is no maximum fall and I think there is a reason and that reason is excess fall hardly ever causes issues . I still think 1/8 inch inferior to1/4 inch per foot unless youve got bigger pipe like 6 inch but also on super long runs it would be too deep
@@jeffreyplumber1975 While there's not a stated maximum, there's footnotes which note that excessive grade can cause the fluid to outflow the effluent and leave effluent behind to sit and create blockages over time. So while sometimes you have to do what you have to do, you generally want to keep from being ridiculous with it.
As an installer, to nvrdwn's point, I've never seen a situation where I've had to have 1/2" of fall or more. Maybe once ever on a reno?
Same here. I’ve never come across a job that stopped up more often because of too much fall. People say it because there’s logic to it but never think it through. If it was a problem, then every rough I’ve done that had an offset with 22’s would have issues. Theres also lots of places where I’ve had to roll a 90 to some oddball angle to connect to something else. This would have issues. If it is an issue, where does it change back to being okay. Is it vertical (for non plumbers, in plumbing vertical means anything from 45 def to plumb). Not to get into too much detail but there’s definitely solids that would stick in a 45 degree pipe without water. Is it only limited to sewer? With how luch grease goes down a kitchen sink line, I want that thing to be moving as fast as possible. I don’t want to give it any more time to solidify. I’m long winded but point being if this were true we’d have a lot more problems than we do.
Commercial Plumber here I've been installing large(20 story)multifamily buildings over the past few years. One of the main reasons you don't want too much fall in a system is due to the venting needing to have the proper amount of air pressure so that the water in the ptraps are not sucked out, and there is still enough air flow to properly vent the system.
If you think about a 200 foot run of eight inch pipe that is at a 1/2" vs 1/16" that would be a huge difference in not only the predicted amount of force at the next joint requiring a ridiculous amount of extra support to stop the potential force on that 90(that happens also happens on storm drains that use a short sweep to catch a vertical) or it will pop off. And of course now you have a crazy amount of air pressure going up pulling every p trap out for the next 4 floors(idk how many that would pull tbh but definitely that example would ruin a plumbing system if set at that kind of grade because of the venting.)
@@lionheart1126Any water in the line should suck from vent, if it doesnt it’s improperly vented. It sounds like you’re talking about right past the trap before it flattens out. Yes you don’t want that too sloped. As for the rest Water doesn’t fill the pipe as it moves so it only really pushes air in vertical pipes. A pipe graded at 1/2” wouldn’t push or pull air, it would flatten out. Also any vertical pipe would gather much more momentum than horizontal. So are you not allowed to install vertical pipe because it would be too hard on 90s. This is why you use long sweeps or preferably 45s. All that momentum moves on down the pipe. Do multistory buildings not use vertical piping?
always do about an 1/8 or a bit more of fall on it. The standard here is every 10’ of pipe we use is about 2-1/2 inches for fall but doing ground roughs it’s hard to keep it that way unless you want out of your ditch lol.
1/8” per 10’ is not 2.5” it’s more like 1.25” -1.378”
Good point on the trap arms. ICC codes lengths seem to be based on 1/4 "/ft. That would be the max pitch, unless maybe you decrease the trap arm lengths...
Something else to consider is that the amount of fall has an effect on your venting distance. Basically, a trap arm sloped at 1/2” per foot will result in no vent at the trap at half the distance of a trap arm sloped at 1/4” per foot. In every code I have read, all drains sized below 3” must have 1/4” per foot slope - not an 1/8” and not a 1/2”. Everything 3” and above can be sloped from 1/4” to 1/2”. However, if you are running a trap arm to a 3” or 4” trap, you need to stick with 1/8” to 1/4” to remain within the maximum venting distance from the vent to the trap.
Exactly. To add to this, the min/max grade codes are more for maintaining momentum. Just as in venting, too much flow can cause issues and too little flow can cause clogs. It's why we use long sweeps on verticals: maintaining momentum. While splatter stoppage and pitting, from too much fall, may not be as bad an issue with pvc and abs, it still is with cast iron, but the abrupt slowing can cause issues as well.
I watched this drinking beer in the garage, but I do have a sh%ter in here😂
In cities that have combined sanitary and storm sewers, they often have the bottoms of the main lines sloping to the center with a pronounced dip in the center. That is to ensure that waste products are washed into the dip and that all the water produced by the sanitary system will flow through that dip so it can carry hundreds of blocks of sanitary sewage down the pipe to the treatment plant.
If you see the sewer line they installed in centuries old city, you will see that the made them teardrop shaped with the small end down for the exact same reason, to ensure that human waste would properly flow down the pip with only the water used to flush human waste into the pipe.
Of course, if they get a heavy rain, that combined system will ensure that they waste is washed down the pipe really good but can also overwhelm the sanitary treatment plants which will have to divert ALL of the water flow around the treatment plant to prevent the treatment plant from being damaged. That also means that all of the raw untreated human waste put into the system during the rain will be washed into a waterway for a downstream city's fresh water treatment system to deal with. I am glad that I live where all of the cities storm sewer and sanitary sewer systems are totally separate.
Always run at 1/4 per foot - it covers everything from toilet to kitchen drains with zero issues - and the trap to vent distance always passed every inspection I was ever part of.
Great info. As a home owner I am always looking for a more complete understanding.
In nyc 2 1/2” or less 1/4 pitch 3”-6” 1/8 8” or larger 1/16 that’s the minimum
I have my dad's old metal level with adjustable bubble and i forgot that it was a plumber's level, and it was for adjusting pipe slope he had a lot of interesting old tools
How has the newer low flow standards affected slope?
Thanks for this knowledge, Rogger.
You bet
When installing a 4x4x3 wye horizontally how do i put the grade level on it to make sure the wye arm is pitched correctly? There doesn't appear to be any reference surfaces on the outside of the wye to allow this measurement. Do i just put a small length of pipe in and use that?
Scoped a line on a brand new 1.2+ million house the other day with a 7 foot long belly in it 🗿
how do you calculate the city main sewer dept you need in order to have the proper fall lets say your master bed room is 80 feet from going into the main sewer line located in your front yard how deep do you need the city sewer line to be in order to achieve the 1/4/per foot? so basically if i reroute my sewer line how many feet in the front yard i need the city sewer line to be in order to have proper pitch.
Also different pipe diameters will recommend different grade, you can’t go wrong with 1/4” per ft
That's a good rule of thumb
How do commercial buildings do this on a longer run? Say 80 feet?
1:13 hawk Tua girl... 👍🏻
don't they have the don't go too steep on downhill slope for smaller pipes so that you don't slope more than the pipe diameter and create a siphon?
Find Julius Ballanco's Plumbing & Mechanical article "it's the solids that run away". Out there on internet. Too much pitch?
Too much fall? I've worked around Aspen and seen some drains coming out at a 45 degree angle. The waste is nearly in free fall and they don't plug up.
The rule is 1/4 until a steep drop
@@patrickday4206all the plumbing code books have a table that shows how many DFUs a pipe can handle at 1/8 1/4 1/2 slope. The higher the slope the more DFUs the pipe can handle. DFUs is drainage fixture units for anyone who doesn't know.
Awesome video, But i really wish you would've done real life scenario with that clear pipe, and show when the water out runs it and leaves solids behind. hawk tuah = 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I remember someone told me to much drop could create a vacuum and suck the pee traps dry
cool
Having too much fall is better than not enough.
I do the bubble on my level end of story
Real plumbers know that 4/16” per foot is the best.
Real plumbers also know…. More
1:14 LMAO!!!!!!!!!! There she be.
What’s up, Roger? Have you heard of NYC Hydro? He’s another UA-camr. I thought that would be cool if y’all did a collaboration. Also, I would like to know the most hated plumbing brand by you. Mine is Zurn.
Zurn?! That footage of the solids being flushed is from Zurn’s testing facility! That was one of the coolest places I’ve been..what don’t you like about them?
@@RogerWakefield i need to send u pics
He dont know wht hes talking about 😂@RogerWakefield
Get NYC on here broskie 🎉
@@RogerWakefieldhelp us and post images for the level with markings, thank you very much
Been told if there’s a thing as too much fall explain more than one story perfect 90 degrees. Also pipe diameter is not to be forgotten, 6” can dang near level. I believe we use enough water throughout our castles to keep washing out leftover debris.
Does grade matter on vents? Air is just air right? Can't you just make the vents level? I always give them an 1/8 per foot because that's what I was told
Should be pitch towards the drain its serving could even get away with a 1/6 pitch
Dry vents, doesn't matter. Wet vents you have to make sure you have grade since water will be flowing through
As someone mentioned it depends on the vent but to add to it, most vents you want a bit of slope since most are just pipes without caps so water or condensate from city gases will enter and use your vent to help the main vent breath too. So you don't want water/ vapour pooling in an elbow, mid pipe, or san tee, etc, just because it was back graded 1/16, 1 /8, etc. By all accounts the Sanatary tee has a built in slope it's subtle when placed perfectly level, and that ensures in correct installs water won't pool up.
That pipe looks bowed which also shows the need for proper support.
✋
i measure based off how fast the bubble reaches full bubble. at a quarter the line should split the bubble. if it goes full bubble it needs to reach that point very slow. that tells me its a quarter plus.
✅
✅
@@RogerWakefield ✅
Hold on , I gotta go...
Roger. right now I'm having trouble with a city inspector understanding what your talking about in this video. job site has sewer run about 400' to city main over a big hill. I'm wanting to do step down, city is say No, not code.
On a horizontal pipe you need to monitor the weir the lower end can't be to low or it will cause a problem the water will not flow it will surge. Pulling a vacuum and sucking the water out of the traps. Do it right or don't do it.
never ever ever after 38 years of being a plumber seen water out run solids. you are gonna take a shower eventually. you’re gonna drain a sink. if you did leave a turd behind you are gonna hit it with a solid wall of grey water at some point and it’s gone. Absolutely no way it’s gonna clog, never seen it never will and i exceeded 1/4 per ft in my own house never a problem.
Initially, I was taught that too much fall can cause an issue, but pretty much all of the old head/supervisors have told me it's not an issue. Pretty much been told "cant have too much pitch" In my head, this makes sense, because here we have houses built on huge hills with extremely steep driveways; wouldn't the main sewer line leaving the house just be soaring at that point? And it doesnt seem to cause problems. So Id be curious if anyone has additional input on this.
I would say that maybe that's true on old fixtures. But there's less water now with these water saving toilets. So too much fall and the water might run away from the shit
I think the more important consideration is that it's easier to add grade than remove it without botching a system or creating a headache for yourself. Staying closer to minimums allows for digging shallower trenches for less hassle with clay and hard ground, or allowing for higher ceiling if running under joists, or an ability to run in joists when more grade wouldn't give you enough room allowing for more efficient routing of pipes and avoidance of other trades like HVAC guys or preventing having to box out a section.
While in theory fluids can outflow effluents with more grade, in practice this doesn't happen very often. However, there are countless arguments to be made for staying near or slightly more pitched than the minimum purely for a better designed system and better build for the client. Any plumber who just adds grade simply because he can add grade and it won't block up down the road is just an ignorant tradesman who's ignoring the multitude of other reasons for doing so. If you're adding grade there should be an actual reason for doing so beyond "I felt like it" because that's just a lazy attitude.
I’ve never had to unstop a vertical stack which is maximum fall.
@@zeb5478I have zeb. It had tons of grease built up at the bottom but serviced an entire 3 floor apartment. You just haven’t done commercial plumbing and probably have no experience in vertical plumbing. Not saying it might not take longer but having vertical pipes doesn’t just cure all problems.
@@MachineManiaOG Master Plumber, commercial repair for over 40 years. Own a jet truck. Velocity is our friend and fall develops velocity.
✋️
Did you really add the hauk tauh girl into your video?
no...🤔
My sewer gases exit with variable pitches. Sometimes high pitched and sometimes low pitched.
No such thing as too much fall. Max slope is a vertical pipe how the heck is that problematic maybe we should have no vertical pipes and run all stacks with a 1/4 fall horizontally inside of buildings. LOL
Too much fall is a problem with horizontal pipe.
Table 704.1 MINIMUM SLOPE. There is no maximum except in wives' tales.
Way to ruin the plumbing economy
How is this ruining the economy?
@@RogerWakefieldI really want to hear This response I’m puzzled
😂 He might actually have to be good at plumbing now
BS, you can not have too much fall. Velocity is our friend. Take your theory to the maximum extreme and go vertical. Never saw a soil stack with a stoppage.
You can to much fall and it will empty the p trap
This demo isn’t about a trap arm. The purpose of the vent is to protect the trap seal, no matter the velocity from the pitch.@. @chrisatc627
@@chrisatc627isnt that the purpose of a vented p-trap, to prevent any chance of siphoning?