This is indeed something I have noticed in your videos so thanks for this elaboration. I have started not worrying about fletching direction and it does work just as well.
Thank you for this clear and elaborate explanation. Informs my decision to add a rest to my grandson's bow and the nock/vane orientation for his birthday present.
Thanks very much for all of your info and knowledge mate, I'm in Geelong so I only have blokes like you on here to leaen from, so I appreciate the effort you put in. Cheers mate, thanks again for your brain date 🏹🎯
Excellent video... I wish you spent a few more seconds on off the shelf orientation like you did with arrow rest orientation. I assume it's exactly the same concept and the odd color feather should face out.
Love all of your videos, many of them helped me alot with choosing the right bow, arrows, equipment. I always watch them from start to finish, ton of knowledge. Keep up the good work of sharing your passion. My favs are bow reviews videos btw :D Regards from Poland.
I shoot with vanes and on a rest. But i find a that the vanes leaves marks on the shelf. Not scratches, it's like glue or something that can be rubbed away. Is that ok, and what causes that?
Holy moly thank you soooo much this has been driving me a little bonkers hahaha!!…what is your take on only having two fletching? Then there would always be a clear pass, no?
Nunu-Sensei ! Fletching Direction don't matter that much to me since i'll stick with my Simsek Turkish bow, plus the Barreled Wooden Arrow shafts from Sarmat Archery. and as the Ranch fairy says... "Feathers are for Flying" 😎👍
My friend ive been watching your videos and im impressed. I want to ask your opinion. Im wanting to buy a hunting recurve bow i want it to be a 66 inch bow so maybe a 21 inch riser with long limbs or 25 with medium to short limbs. I have a 25 to 26 inch draw and am looking for a 40 pound draw weight. I want to choose a bow. Or a set up that i will shoot for a while and that will be reliable. I want it to be cnc machined but i am so confused on which riser and which limbs i should get. Theres so many options that im overwhelmed. From your experience what do you think i should get with these specs or close to these specs. I only have about 350 to spend which isnt a lot i know. But please if you will take the time to help me real fast i would appreciate it greatly. Thank you my friend please get back with me a soon as you can
FWIW I've found that left hand or right hand spin vanes makes no difference if you have correct arrow selection for the bow-archer combination. 1250 shooter. Better to work on arrow selection and tuning your bow to the arrow than looking for reasons for something not working based on what someone else says... Just my two cents.
That's actually not surprising that you're not seeing a difference. Someone with straight, good quality arrows will experience very little deviation in flight if the arrow is fletched against its initial rotation. The arrow can spin up counter to fletching, slow, stop and spin up in the right direction with very little, or no accuracy degradation. If you have garbage shafts that are more than 4 thou out of straight, if they pause in rotation (fletched against their natural rotation)while in flight, they can be affected by asymmetrical aerodynamic loads and plane out of a straight path before they spin up again due to fletch lift. There are a LOT of (high performance archers, who by that definition, have good quality gear )that see no difference at all. Most of the directional spin adherents are the guys using crap arrows and need as much rotation as they can get to minimise any departure from a flightpath which is averaging out straight.
This is exactly what i was looking for. I recently bought a samick sage for my first bow to get into instinctive off the shelf shooting and I was noticing the cheap plastic weren't very consistent. Any recommendation on cheap practice arrows? (40#)_
My daughter introduced me to Archery about 3 months ago and I have enjoyed watching your videos. I do not have the physical strength to pull more than 25 pounds, so I have a youth bow. Today I discovered why my plastic veins keep coming off, as I have a shelf. I think I need to invest in feathers going forward. Thank you again for explaining things so well!
Trad vanes are a great alternative to feather fletching but you don't HAVE to go there either. You can change from shooting off the shelf to getting a flipper rest and use standard plastic vanes, they work very well on traditional bows. This way, you don't have to pick up new feather fletches (35$ for a pack of 50) and a fletching tool (30 to 80$) glue, fletching slips etc... If you are new to archery and don't want to invest in all that, a flipper rest is 10$, you are good to go.
If you Google image search ‘north sentinel island’ the ancient native uncontacted tribe on the island uses very long arrows with no fletching which is why I searched UA-cam for shooting with no fletching to see the difference. It’s fascinating how long their arrows are. It’s like shooting a spear.
Makes no difference when using Feathers as they collapse when passing, Vanes on the other hand are terrible when shot like this. I shoot right handed with a Thumbring off the left and can rotate arrows any way and they fly exactly the same.
I have a question, sensei. If I have an arrow (let's say, Arrow A) that is 9/32" diameter, and another arrow (Arrow B) 5/16" diameter, both are 500 spine, both have same gpi. Will smaller diameter arrow be stiffer for same spine in this case??
The *spine* is what defines the stiffness. If two shafts are of different sizes but are of the same spine rating, they will be equally stiff when measured at the standard arrow length. It may be different when you begin cutting the shaft, however. In general, thinner arrows are *softer* than thicker arrows.
Jesse broadwater has an excellent video on results of which way the fletchings are facing, it's on facebook. Even though it's compound and it's at 50 meters( some countries still have compounds shooting at 70 and 90 meters.), I think it can still apply to Recurves shooting 70 or 90 meters. Even though cock vanes on compounds are meant to face up, I personally think tue same results apply to recurve, which has the cock vane away from the riser.
I actually shoot vaned arrows with no problem off the shelf of my recurves ... You just need to set it up differently. I put some fur on the shelf (very short haired so as to pad the vane if it comes in contact, and greatly decreases and deflection.) I have found thru much trial and error that my odd colored vane works best pointing up as if shooting it on a compound bow. And lastly, I set my knocking point on the string about or a little short of half an inch higher than dead even with the shelf. I many times can shoot 10 arrows and get 5,6, even 7 arrows in the bullseye from about 15 yards out and I have only took up archery in March of this year 10 months ago ... So if I can do it, and really I suck at it, I find it hard to believe people that are great and have been doing it for several years can't shoot vaned! Sure you have to set up and tune the bow differently which takes some time, but it can be donen
@@NUSensei True, but just starting out ... Last 2 months I have been hospitalized ... So I really have only been shooting for about 6 1/2 months and really not going to shoot anymore than about 20 - 25 yards anyway ... When I'm able, I will let you know how I make out with it. My friend who showed me how to set my bow up hits bulleted with vanes from 25 - 30 yards out! Oh and I failed to mention it last time, but I love your videos, and have learned a lot from them ...
@@joedaniels4646 30 yards is still on the very short range side of things. A lot of things that aren't optimal will still work very well until you get to 50 yards.
I have a simple pro max 62 with Easton arrows that look like that (except purple lol) and man I am always way left and my arrows stick in the target at a serious angle (left). Even after I figured out I was knocking the arrow the wrong way (basically wasn’t paying attention). I got one of my arrows changed to feather fletching and the two fiberglass arrows that came with the arrow are feathered (those 2 arrows go WAY right and high) but the one Easton I got feathered I can’t really tell that big of a difference. It’s definitely better though. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. It’s really discouraging. I’m a stay at home mom and started target archery as part of my fitness journey and to actually have a hobby and I just can’t give up.
sensei there is a very silly question thats bothers me but it kinda do make alittle bit of sense in some situation if we somehow attached a pouch on the string will the bow be able to shoot other projectile than arrows for some scenarios like you dont want to waste arrows on some small game or you already have ran out of arrows but somehow somewhy have some rocks or lead balls or steel balls in your pocket and use the bow as an imrpovised slingshot
@@NUSensei thats true and wellaware of them but rubber are fragile pieces of cr@p lets be honest thats why i want the durability of the bow but with the versitality of a slingshot and the speed and shooting mechanism of both
@@mohamedshwesh221 I was thinking of something else when I said slingbow. A slingbow is a slingshot that shoots arrows. I was actually referring to something else I saw - a bow with a pouch that hurls shots. Or I could have been dreaming it up.
@@NUSensei that what i was thinking of it too but it need some testing of how effective that would be or even its possible or will the shots hit the limbs or worst case your hand
Thanks for this interesting topic! I was one of the people asking. I hunt deer with feathers off a rest and getting it wrong means a bad shot and bits of fletching raining down. I have lots of time to nock the arrow and I want to save my fletching. I see your point that it wouldn't matter much in fast recreational shooting off a shelf or hand.
@@TracyPicabia I have only ever shot one arrow at a deer with a bow. It was a double lung at 25 yards from a tree stand and thankfully the doe dropped immediately. I trained by stopping at a local outdoor archery range and taking 30 shots or more each morning on my commute to work for about a year. I practiced shooting from odd angles and even sitting cross-legged on the ground. That was 25 years ago. One of my friends once wounded a deer, and the thought of that sickens me. I hope that never happens to me! These days I don't have anywhere to hunt, so my first archery deer may also have been my last.
@@michaelgeiss741 that is very good to hear. Wish all hunters put that much effort into making a clean kill. I fear there's plenty adrenalin fuelled jack asses out there that don't. Happy shooting
Thanks Sensei, That makes sense. It will reduce accuracy but the magnitude depends on the bow and the arrow. And with the right bow/arrows deciding whether it's worth fussing over depends on the purpose of the practice. I picked up a couple horse bows from Alibow last year, I didn't get much time to practice and I have had no training but it's really fun. I can't wait to get back out and practice.
Exactly. Whatever contact the feathers make with the bow isn't going to be the reason why you miss. It might be the reason why your grouping is slightly larger, but it won't change your intended accuracy.
Khatra is good for Asiatic Bows, it's do able with western and Euro style bows if they don't have a shelf and you are shooting off your band. Basically what it does it help with arrow clearance and accuracy. If you're really interested in learning about it, Armin Hirmer on youtube has covered Khatra a lot on his channel.
@@UTxTheArchangel You can only do proper side khatra if you shoot with the arrow on the outside of the bow (that is, for a right hander, on the right side). Doing side khatra on the inside would cause the string to slap hard on your forearm. Thumb draw is almost always used on the outside, and three fingers draw almost always on the inside, but both can be done - and were done - from both sides.
Some shooters use 4 fletch, but with 4 fletch you still would want the stiff side of the arrow up so they react the same, that's the theory of spine indexing with 4 fletch. With 4 fletch, you cam get more drag which would slow your arrow quite a bit if you're using an arrow that has long fletchings, this is why fletchings that are longer aren't used for outdoor.
@@renatugaming5730 That makes sense, I did think that 4 fletches would make the arrow slower/heavier. Still, it seems like if your main goal is to get arrows out quickly, relatively accurately, 4 fletches still seem to make sense. Like maybe for horseback archery. Cool to know that it's definitely not a novel concept though.
@@Candesce usually 4 fletch is used on compound arrows but I guess recurve and traditional shooters can use it as well. Usually with 4 fletch you can get away with shorter and it will stabilize the arrow as well as a 3 fletch with 2 inch vanes.
Been binge watching your videos recently, infact just now actually, so a new upload is very welcome!
This is indeed something I have noticed in your videos so thanks for this elaboration. I have started not worrying about fletching direction and it does work just as well.
Thank you for this clear and elaborate explanation. Informs my decision to add a rest to my grandson's bow and the nock/vane orientation for his birthday present.
Thank you for this service, I find you are easy to understand (technically) and I always take positives away, thank you.
Thanks very much for all of your info and knowledge mate, I'm in Geelong so I only have blokes like you on here to leaen from, so I appreciate the effort you put in.
Cheers mate, thanks again for your brain date 🏹🎯
Seen a few of your vids before now, always very helpful. Today however.... YOU SAVED MY FLIPPIN DAYYYY
Excellent video... I wish you spent a few more seconds on off the shelf orientation like you did with arrow rest orientation. I assume it's exactly the same concept and the odd color feather should face out.
I shoot a horsebow. I wanted to do blind nocking and didn't want to deal which way the fletching faced, so, I got arrows with 4 feathers lol.
Me too
2 feathers would also work well & oriented with the nock slot would never be a problem hitting the bow.
Love all of your videos, many of them helped me alot with choosing the right bow, arrows, equipment. I always watch them from start to finish, ton of knowledge. Keep up the good work of sharing your passion. My favs are bow reviews videos btw :D Regards from Poland.
YAY!!!! I think he's addressing my comment lol
Something random: why are your windshield wipers up?
Good solid stuff. Well explained. feathers are also a lot lighter than plastic vanes.
I shoot with vanes and on a rest.
But i find a that the vanes leaves marks on the shelf. Not scratches, it's like glue or something that can be rubbed away.
Is that ok, and what causes that?
the arrows are probably leaving a bit of their material behind. You can "draw", so to speak, with a lot of plastics.
If you shoot on the arrow rest does your nock point have to be set differently?
Yes. Because the rest is elevated from the shelf, you'll need to set the nock point different.
@@NUSensei Thank you. Brand new to archery!
Holy moly thank you soooo much this has been driving me a little bonkers hahaha!!…what is your take on only having two fletching? Then there would always be a clear pass, no?
Nunu-Sensei ! Fletching Direction don't matter that much to me since i'll stick with my Simsek Turkish bow, plus the Barreled Wooden Arrow shafts from Sarmat Archery. and as the Ranch fairy says... "Feathers are for Flying" 😎👍
Can you do a video explaining how to become an Olympic archer? With steps?
I’m not sure if this is a joke, but if it isn’t you best join a club and go from there
Ok, but what IS that alignment for a shelved feathered arrow?
My friend ive been watching your videos and im impressed. I want to ask your opinion. Im wanting to buy a hunting recurve bow i want it to be a 66 inch bow so maybe a 21 inch riser with long limbs or 25 with medium to short limbs. I have a 25 to 26 inch draw and am looking for a 40 pound draw weight. I want to choose a bow. Or a set up that i will shoot for a while and that will be reliable. I want it to be cnc machined but i am so confused on which riser and which limbs i should get. Theres so many options that im overwhelmed. From your experience what do you think i should get with these specs or close to these specs. I only have about 350 to spend which isnt a lot i know. But please if you will take the time to help me real fast i would appreciate it greatly. Thank you my friend please get back with me a soon as you can
Best archery channel!
FWIW I've found that left hand or right hand spin vanes makes no difference if you have correct arrow selection for the bow-archer combination. 1250 shooter. Better to work on arrow selection and tuning your bow to the arrow than looking for reasons for something not working based on what someone else says... Just my two cents.
That's actually not surprising that you're not seeing a difference. Someone with straight, good quality arrows will experience very little deviation in flight if the arrow is fletched against its initial rotation. The arrow can spin up counter to fletching, slow, stop and spin up in the right direction with very little, or no accuracy degradation. If you have garbage shafts that are more than 4 thou out of straight, if they pause in rotation (fletched against their natural rotation)while in flight, they can be affected by asymmetrical aerodynamic loads and plane out of a straight path before they spin up again due to fletch lift.
There are a LOT of (high performance archers, who by that definition, have good quality gear )that see no difference at all. Most of the directional spin adherents are the guys using crap arrows and need as much rotation as they can get to minimise any departure from a flightpath which is averaging out straight.
@@admacdo agreed
Wow one wrong letter brings up a much different search
This is exactly what i was looking for. I recently bought a samick sage for my first bow to get into instinctive off the shelf shooting and I was noticing the cheap plastic weren't very consistent. Any recommendation on cheap practice arrows? (40#)_
Anything with feathers for shooting off the shelf
500 spine for 40 lb recurve should be good
My daughter introduced me to Archery about 3 months ago and I have enjoyed watching your videos. I do not have the physical strength to pull more than 25 pounds, so I have a youth bow. Today I discovered why my plastic veins keep coming off, as I have a shelf. I think I need to invest in feathers going forward. Thank you again for explaining things so well!
Trad vanes. Check em out.
Trad vanes are a great alternative to feather fletching but you don't HAVE to go there either. You can change from shooting off the shelf to getting a flipper rest and use standard plastic vanes, they work very well on traditional bows. This way, you don't have to pick up new feather fletches (35$ for a pack of 50) and a fletching tool (30 to 80$) glue, fletching slips etc... If you are new to archery and don't want to invest in all that, a flipper rest is 10$, you are good to go.
Thank you, very helpful!!!
If you Google image search ‘north sentinel island’ the ancient native uncontacted tribe on the island uses very long arrows with no fletching which is why I searched UA-cam for shooting with no fletching to see the difference. It’s fascinating how long their arrows are. It’s like shooting a spear.
Makes no difference when using Feathers as they collapse when passing, Vanes on the other hand are terrible when shot like this. I shoot right handed with a Thumbring off the left and can rotate arrows any way and they fly exactly the same.
Loved this thank you
I have a question, sensei. If I have an arrow (let's say, Arrow A) that is 9/32" diameter, and another arrow (Arrow B) 5/16" diameter, both are 500 spine, both have same gpi. Will smaller diameter arrow be stiffer for same spine in this case??
The *spine* is what defines the stiffness. If two shafts are of different sizes but are of the same spine rating, they will be equally stiff when measured at the standard arrow length. It may be different when you begin cutting the shaft, however. In general, thinner arrows are *softer* than thicker arrows.
Jesse broadwater has an excellent video on results of which way the fletchings are facing, it's on facebook. Even though it's compound and it's at 50 meters( some countries still have compounds shooting at 70 and 90 meters.), I think it can still apply to Recurves shooting 70 or 90 meters. Even though cock vanes on compounds are meant to face up, I personally think tue same results apply to recurve, which has the cock vane away from the riser.
I actually shoot vaned arrows with no problem off the shelf of my recurves ... You just need to set it up differently.
I put some fur on the shelf (very short haired so as to pad the vane if it comes in contact, and greatly decreases and deflection.)
I have found thru much trial and error that my odd colored vane works best pointing up as if shooting it on a compound bow.
And lastly, I set my knocking point on the string about or a little short of half an inch higher than dead even with the shelf.
I many times can shoot 10 arrows and get 5,6, even 7 arrows in the bullseye from about 15 yards out and I have only took up archery in March of this year 10 months ago ... So if I can do it, and really I suck at it, I find it hard to believe people that are great and have been doing it for several years can't shoot vaned!
Sure you have to set up and tune the bow differently which takes some time, but it can be donen
15 yards isn't a sufficient distance. This is closer than even standard indoor rounds. You will see significantly more issues at longer distance.
@@NUSensei True, but just starting out ... Last 2 months I have been hospitalized ... So I really have only been shooting for about 6 1/2 months and really not going to shoot anymore than about 20 - 25 yards anyway ... When I'm able, I will let you know how I make out with it.
My friend who showed me how to set my bow up hits bulleted with vanes from 25 - 30 yards out!
Oh and I failed to mention it last time, but I love your videos, and have learned a lot from them ...
@@joedaniels4646 30 yards is still on the very short range side of things. A lot of things that aren't optimal will still work very well until you get to 50 yards.
@@NUSensei oh okay, I myself will probably not shoot past 25 yrs ... Thanks you for the info ... I appreciate you, and your work!
@4:56 This demonstration might ruffle some feathers.
Does it matter with a compound bow ?
I've been shooting plastic vanes off the shelf. Wish I did better research when buying arrows.
It's second Christmas! Prepare for incoming response videos!
The fletching should never touch the bow with a properly tuned arrow. A plastic vane will shoot fine with the proper arrow spine
A good video as always and educational. Keep up good work Sensei. Btw I wish you get back to War thunder and make new videos 😭
The Wikipedia for Archery ^^
lololol
I can agree
In case of an 'arrow slap'...you don't only lose accuracy but also speed and energy....
Good video!
Thank you.
I have a simple pro max 62 with Easton arrows that look like that (except purple lol) and man I am always way left and my arrows stick in the target at a serious angle (left). Even after I figured out I was knocking the arrow the wrong way (basically wasn’t paying attention).
I got one of my arrows changed to feather fletching and the two fiberglass arrows that came with the arrow are feathered (those 2 arrows go WAY right and high) but the one Easton I got feathered I can’t really tell that big of a difference. It’s definitely better though.
I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. It’s really discouraging. I’m a stay at home mom and started target archery as part of my fitness journey and to actually have a hobby and I just can’t give up.
Incorrect arrow spine, talk to your archery shop 👍
Thanks xx
sensei there is a very silly question thats bothers me but it kinda do make alittle bit of sense in some situation
if we somehow attached a pouch on the string will the bow be able to shoot other projectile than arrows for some scenarios like you dont want to waste arrows on some small game or you already have ran out of arrows but somehow somewhy have some rocks or lead balls or steel balls in your pocket and use the bow as an imrpovised slingshot
Slingbows are a thing.
@@NUSensei thats true and wellaware of them but rubber are fragile pieces of cr@p lets be honest thats why i want the durability of the bow but with the versitality of a slingshot and the speed and shooting mechanism of both
@@mohamedshwesh221 I was thinking of something else when I said slingbow. A slingbow is a slingshot that shoots arrows. I was actually referring to something else I saw - a bow with a pouch that hurls shots. Or I could have been dreaming it up.
@@NUSensei that what i was thinking of it too but it need some testing of how effective that would be or even its possible or will the shots hit the limbs or worst case your hand
Thanks for this interesting topic! I was one of the people asking. I hunt deer with feathers off a rest and getting it wrong means a bad shot and bits of fletching raining down. I have lots of time to nock the arrow and I want to save my fletching. I see your point that it wouldn't matter much in fast recreational shooting off a shelf or hand.
bad shot with feathers off a rest, presumably you've often got a wounded deer wandering around the woods dying slowly.
@@TracyPicabia I have only ever shot one arrow at a deer with a bow. It was a double lung at 25 yards from a tree stand and thankfully the doe dropped immediately. I trained by stopping at a local outdoor archery range and taking 30 shots or more each morning on my commute to work for about a year. I practiced shooting from odd angles and even sitting cross-legged on the ground. That was 25 years ago. One of my friends once wounded a deer, and the thought of that sickens me. I hope that never happens to me! These days I don't have anywhere to hunt, so my first archery deer may also have been my last.
@@michaelgeiss741 that is very good to hear. Wish all hunters put that much effort into making a clean kill. I fear there's plenty adrenalin fuelled jack asses out there that don't. Happy shooting
🙏🏽
Went to 4 fletch decades ago... quick and simple....
Thanks Sensei, That makes sense. It will reduce accuracy but the magnitude depends on the bow and the arrow. And with the right bow/arrows deciding whether it's worth fussing over depends on the purpose of the practice.
I picked up a couple horse bows from Alibow last year, I didn't get much time to practice and I have had no training but it's really fun. I can't wait to get back out and practice.
Exactly. Whatever contact the feathers make with the bow isn't going to be the reason why you miss. It might be the reason why your grouping is slightly larger, but it won't change your intended accuracy.
You know you never actually said exactly what the right orientation is.
Yeah...it doesn't. Unless you shoot Olympic. Let's watch :D
What is the advantage of Katra?
Clearance. Straighter arrow flight. In short.
Khatra is good for Asiatic Bows, it's do able with western and Euro style bows if they don't have a shelf and you are shooting off your band. Basically what it does it help with arrow clearance and accuracy. If you're really interested in learning about it, Armin Hirmer on youtube has covered Khatra a lot on his channel.
Guys, thanks!
@@UTxTheArchangel You can only do proper side khatra if you shoot with the arrow on the outside of the bow (that is, for a right hander, on the right side). Doing side khatra on the inside would cause the string to slap hard on your forearm.
Thumb draw is almost always used on the outside, and three fingers draw almost always on the inside, but both can be done - and were done - from both sides.
This is the best video I know of about khatra: ua-cam.com/video/WNmNWRt8wQ0/v-deo.html
Why don't they make X fletching to make nock alignment a non issue?
Some shooters use 4 fletch, but with 4 fletch you still would want the stiff side of the arrow up so they react the same, that's the theory of spine indexing with 4 fletch. With 4 fletch, you cam get more drag which would slow your arrow quite a bit if you're using an arrow that has long fletchings, this is why fletchings that are longer aren't used for outdoor.
@@renatugaming5730 That makes sense, I did think that 4 fletches would make the arrow slower/heavier. Still, it seems like if your main goal is to get arrows out quickly, relatively accurately, 4 fletches still seem to make sense. Like maybe for horseback archery. Cool to know that it's definitely not a novel concept though.
@@Candesce usually 4 fletch is used on compound arrows but I guess recurve and traditional shooters can use it as well. Usually with 4 fletch you can get away with shorter and it will stabilize the arrow as well as a 3 fletch with 2 inch vanes.
I wish he would stop making video's