4680 Battery Pack: What We Found Under the Foam!
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2022
- Sandy and Cory give an update on the 4680 Battery Pack from our Austin-Built Tesla Model Y.
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Outro:
Music from UA-cam Audio Library [Aka YAL]
Music provided by RFM: • Video
#Tesla #4680 #GigaTexas - Розваги
Limited Edition Pink Foam of Death Tee! Buy Now: munro-live-store.creator-spring.com/listing/pink-foam-of-death-band-tee
ua-cam.com/video/_Chif5XdNlc/v-deo.html
I just love your videos, and I'm not an engineer. I'm just a 77 year-old grandmother waiting for my Tesla 3 RWD to be delivered this September. I'm so impressed with the Tesla technology. Can't wait for the next video!
Hi Marguerite! thanks for watching.
Smart lady!
I camp in my tesla from time to time at great viewpoints then sketch/paint the views! It’s awesome 😎
@@cathyjones4702 That's not exactly true
Once you go EV, you will never go back. Especially a Tesla with it's easy, reliable, and fast charging.
Thanks for explaining how recycling works. A bunch of “engineers” in the comments thought you pick apart the battery piece by piece. It’s much easier than that.
Those engineers work for the railroad.
It's still a reduction in recycling, there are a lot of people that want to reuse the cells (reduce, REUSE, recycle), when the car has 300k on it and the pack is at 60% capacity you want to reuse the cells, they would still be good for a while as grid/home energy storage. Essentially, this foam seems like it makes reuse of the cells impossible.
I was just about to thank them for doing this. I didnt know it was that easy to recycle. My first though When i saw All the pink stuff was also that it Will be a nightmare to recycle. I really learned something important here ☺️
@@edman007x
If you ever looked at the first patents for the structural pack you would already know the foam was going to be there.
This clearly eliminates the most important part: Repairing and Refurbishing and then Reusing in other applications and lastly comes Recycling.
And that bullshit about recycling with liquid nitrogen and all that, it does not work like that. It is not viable to do because of cost and complexity.
Following along with the tear down, very interesting. I will note that liquid nitrogen is no where near absolute zero, it's −196 °C (− 320 °F, 77 K). That may be cold enough for this recycling process but if you really want closer to absolute zero you need liquid helium which is -269 °C (−452 °F, 4 K).
No one will be wasting helium to cool down batteries for recycling.
ya, the details were off - the low temperature isn't so that the materials can shatter, the low temperature stops or greatly slows down the chemical reactions - so that crushing it doesn't just short everything out and cause a thermal runaway from the residual charges in the batteries.
Every drop in temp by 10 degrees C, halves the chemical reaction rate.
@@KenLord Actually, the low temperature of a liquid nitrogen bath is used to make composite materials brittle order to crush them. The cold temperature serves two main functions in order to brake complex artifacts apart: First the different expansion coefficients of each material breaks them apart at their contact surfaces because of different rates of contraction. Secondly, the cold temperature makes most amorphous polymers very brittle when a certain threshold temperature is reached, called the glas transition temperature tg. Most rubbery materials will become so brittle that a slight hammer stroke will pulverize them. So in the end, when you expose something like this battery pack to liquid nitrogen and than start hammering it I guess that pink polymer stuff will just pulverize immediately and the metallic components will fall apart into pieces that are made of aluminum, coper, steel aso
@@ParameterGrenze ok cool ... BUT LITERALLY NO. It's about not causing a thermal runaway from shorting out the residual charges in the batteries. After that it's just a freaking jaw crusher, or multiple stages of commonplace crushing equipment chewing away at it all.
You learn about how temperature affects reaction rates (Every 10 deg C cooler halves the rate) in high school chemistry, or at the latest in 100 level university chemistry.
There's nothing inherently difficult about pulverizing the materials that would require that it be so cold to enable it to shatter. This stuff isn't Vibranium.
The prototype liquid nitrogen system made by a startup company was shown off in a Now You Know episode a year or two ago, with the purpose of it all being exactly what I've described. I'd provide the link if I had it.
@@ParameterGrenze My understanding is that recycling tires involves freezing the tire with liquid nitrogen and crushing it to separate the metal belts from the rubber.
This is a time when someone took Munro’s advise and pushed it so far that even Munro is feeling the shock
There must be thousands of engineers like me really enjoying these videos. Thank you Cory & Sandy!
Well, I'm not an engineer but I sure enjoyed their seeming amazement at what they're trying to take apart. And hats off to Elon! He's upended the need for a patent. I mean, if someone can't break down your contraption to figure out how it works, why get a patent?
And even more engineers (like me) who wince at the clueless statements such as the claim that liquid nitrogen is "just a little bit above absolute zero".
Well, I am not a professional engineer, although I played one in Transportation and Environmental Protection for state government. I have been taking things apart to see how they worked since I was a child. Sometimes I had to get my very smart father to help me get it back together again, but I was learning. I get the feeling that these guys (and many who watch them) had a similar background before they went to college in engineering.
Shoutout to Cory looking FIT! Also thank you as always gentlemen for your hard work!
Thanks Farzad! Cory is down 40lbs.
@@MunroLive The key is reducing refined carbohydrate intake.
@@MunroLive good for him! Nebraska might need his help this year to get to 12-0.
Sandy's fat jokes finally got to him. :(
He's reduced his consumption of threaded fatteners 😅
You guys are awesome! Its amazing to see the 4680 pack like that. Cant wait for more MUNRO LIVE!
Excellent !!! I really enjoy the way that you all tell us EVERYTHING, not just the recap. Keep it up. Super product that you're producing !!!
Hahaha the total miss of Talladega Knights reference is peak Sandy. Don't ever start feeling lucky btw Sandy, glad you guys always play it safe!
Nights
Actually Knights makes more sense with that movie honestly
You’ve now made me want a medieval version of Talladega Nights but instead of NASCAR it’s jousting.
@@snazzy Alabama Jousting with a gay Frenchman 🤣
@@KCJbomberFTW oh my goodness, no kidding you have informed me that it's Nights lol and yeah! That's exactly why I thought it was Knights, two courageous Knights lol
Bloody fascinating!! Thank you for sharing the knowledge, you are an awesome group of experts and your videos are groundbreaking!
Thank you for these informative tear down videos. Learn something new every time.
Glad you like them!
Liquid Nitrogen is -196C. 80 degrees higher than absolute zero. And ... atoms don't "fall apart" if they get too cold. I know chilling the packs for grinding is a useful tactic; but that hurt to hear.
I cringed a bit. also, don't they have an FTIR for plastic ID??
Maybe discharge to zero and grind them down in a normal crusher plant?
Cooling it down makes I brittle therefore better for grinding to a powder.
Surprised at this knowledge gap. Very cringy indeed.
@@RotorWorks Batteries coming in for recycling stand a good chance of being damaged, so discharging might not be possible. Freezing does greatly limit the potential discharge rate, so avoids the thermal event with visual indications.
Woohoo, great job guys!
We all thank you!
Its good to see Cory growing into his own and taking the lead more and more, especially highlighted when Sandy was away and he was the main driver of these video reports.
Side note: The structural pack sure is intense.
And now he’s Chief Engineer at Lucid
Big thanks to the team at Munro for delivering these high quality and educational videos. I do not understand most of it but still find these comparisons incredibly fascinating
Awesome, thanks for showing us what's going on in the battery pack. You guys rock!
Sounds like Sandy needs a Talladega night! Movie night at Munro! Lol
You guys are amazing. Thank you for all this information which you put out there, truly appreciate it.
Our pleasure!
Munro rock, no one ever could imagination what is inside without You guys, Big thanks for sharing !
Another great video. I enjoy watching you and your team break things down and explain the working parts. Thank you, Glen.
Thanks Glen
Another great episode of “Engineering Archeology”. Dig it.
Or "what the heck does that do?"
@@JBoy340a “it sucks in air”…..”that’s definitely suck’n
0:10 Blasted away with dry ice, like I suggested.👍 You're welcome.😁
Greetings from Stefan in Germany. 🇩🇪🤝🇺🇲
Thanks from the great video again! 👌
Thanks for the tip!
@@MunroLiveI can feel the hard "archealogical" work you are going through. I'm glad my tiny hint helped you a bit. Keep going Munro team! 👍👍
I really do love this gentleman's explanation on how to recycle this battery once its dead, learn something new everyday. Thumbs up!!
Incredible work guys, despite the hard work sweat and tears this is a huge world first and you are uncovering all this engineering for amateurs and professionals alike
Great content guys. Appreciate you doing these tear downs, always learn something. What do I do with my hands!
Thanks for watching Beau!
Thank you for sharing the insights you glean from your hard work with your audience for free!
LOL! Love the Rocky Bobby reference at the end!
Rocky Bobby? Is that the boxing brother of Ricky Bobby?
@@skipondowntheroad5833 LOL meant to type Ricky.
So happy sandy explained the recycling process.
Great job guys!
Thanks for these tear downs. Always fascinating seeing things that the normal folks never would see. The engineering involved is 🤯!
Love the series , like the objective talk and love how your business is no pivoting to this vehicles and hope it’s thriving !
Thanks guys! Keeping tearing this puppy apart!!! Love your videos!
It's really interesting to see how they put it together!
You guys rock hard. Keep picking at the pack and sharing.
Yes I'm rock hard from this.
Another fantastic, and informative video! Thank you, guys!
Cool walk through once again. Thanks guys!!
You should make a dedicated video explaining the recycling process. Would be great to have an easily shareable video to address the huge misconceptions going around. Sandy’s explanation was fantastic
How would they know? They are not recycling specialists. We have only the Elon's twit about it so far
Oh they just bury the pack in the ground that’s it
Here’s how VW does it.
ua-cam.com/video/LABwwX960mk/v-deo.html
Shredder instead of grinder, no LN, cyclotron instead of floating separation the rest is the same.
@@Jushwa yeah let’s just burry a few grand worth of raw materials in the ground.
A small startup prototyped the liquid nitrogen system a few years ago. The temperature isn't dropped to make the materials shatter more easily ... it's dropped to stop or greatly reduce the chemical reaction rate, so that crushing and tearing apart the battery doesn't cause a thermal runaway from the residual charges.
Every 10 degrees C drop in temperature halves the chemical reaction rate.
So it simply won't be necessary to manually disassemble each pack and module bolt by bolt, the way some are doing right now.
Floatation cells have been used in the mills at base metal mines for probably a hundred years. Crushed ore goes in, high grade concentrate comes out. Chemicals in the slurry control how different materials float to the top in the floatation cells at each stage of the circuit, to separate different materials.
Shake and Bake!!! Great work @Munrolive keep the videos coming... As a MYP owner, my only gripe besides QC and Service is the amount of plastics in the interior. I get that threaded fasteners should be eliminated when possible but I've had quite a few plastic fasteners break with normal usage. I can't imagine long term durability. Car is a joy to own though and on the plus side the plastic parts are easy to replace. No car is perfect and I'm sure durability will continue to increase as more data comes in.
Apparently , TESLA is Launching F1 race style Service PITTS .
to shorten wait times.
Thanks for answering the recycling question! Super fascinating
Wonderful as always. Glad the cells are intact(payoff from lots of patience and persistence with lots of restraint. Kudos to the Munro team). Now Munro gets to baptize the term for bricking the unbrickable into the English vocabulary.
Suspect there are reserve cells and also
some kind of one time fuse technology to add them later. Seems like a good mitigation technique to address premature loss of capacity in the first generation 4680 cells.
So exiting to see what you found
The incremental teardown over the last few weeks is suspense intense. I'm loving and hate the pace here lol
Great content as usual, Sandy and team. Can’t wait to know more.
Thanks Sandy and Cory for this battery pack update. Looking forward to the next video.
More to come!
Thanks for all your hard work, it is very educational.
Thanks for addressing recycling!
I like the liquid nitrogen hypothesis. It seems to conform to Elon's approach for simplicity.
ua-cam.com/video/_Chif5XdNlc/v-deo.html
HAHAHA The Ricky Bobby reference at the end and Sandy's reaction were gold. Great video, super excited for the future of this teardown!
Thanks gentlemen- fabulous stuff, as usual!
The “bee’s nest” looks like the collector output for the individual abs base caps for each of the cells. The gas from an over charged cell needs to go somewhere.
I am sure Tesla Engineers are watching this and having a very satisfying chuckle as the the pride wells up in them for having stumped Sandy and co.
Fabulous inervies Sandy and Cory. Can't wait for your next episode.
Thank all of you for that report (so far). I never expected my assumption of recycling strategy to be even nearly correct. Back to the show!
thank you for addressing the recycling concerns! I found it very annoying how much people were confusing service-ability with recycling-ability. Keep up the fascinating work!
It's still a concern because it's Reduce> Reuse > Recycle and Tesla is straight up deleting the Reuse possibility, you can't scavenge good modules to put in another car that needs it, if a few cells fail this whole thing needs to be replaced for a stupid amount of money.
@@TheFPSPower the whole point of having so many cells is that some can fail while the rest of the pack can carry on. by the time the battery pack is unfit for use, there is nothing of interest that can be reused, and the sheer amount of nickel within these packs means that it is more productive to recycle than reuse.
keep in mind, it takes some seriously good engineering to design something that is used so thoroughly that by the time it is at the end of its lifespan, there is nothing to reuse.
@@TheFPSPower yeah only exchanging one module in a Tesla battery isn’t a viable solution anyway as the BMS is unable to balance new and old leading to another module biting the dust quickly.
And it can still be used in stationary energy storage if the pack works.
Great work guys!
Thanks, Martin!
Just received my Tesla 3 RWD . It’s a total thrill to drive. The acceleration is next to none. It feels amazing to be part of the transformation to clean and sustainable energy. Im as happy as a kid at Christmas 🎄
Where was the electricity which you use, generated? Most Tesla's drive on coal or nuclear energy...
Ace presentation, makes me smile and interested further. Great work!
Really appreciate the the step by step break down of how you would recycle this battery pack.
Munro, always treasure trove of solid information! Who knew?-threaded fasteners?
the FUD Muck-e has brackets holding up more Brackets.
Muck-e is litterally SCREWED and HOSED.
Great report! Seeing vehicles being dissembled is very educational, especially the electric genre!
SUPER COOL Video! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! -FASCINATING!!!!
This is an early structural pack, the four modules have been shown in the Tesla promo videos so no surprise there. Tesla said that this is essentially a generation-1 pack that just gets the job done. There is a ton of space for the product to evolve; and evolve it will. I look forward to the pack teardown in a year and two. :)
TESLA innovates at LIGHTSPEED.
@@markplott4820 how many fanboys here ...
@@WarezCommentary Regardless of fanboy status, it's the objective truth. Every other manufacturer is still using pouch cells 😂
Someone block 90 minutes on Sandy’s calendar for him to watch Talladega Nights lol
We share your excitement of discovery and I look forward to every one of these videos.
Thanks for the Hard Work. Keep Posting Videos Like these. Love to hear it from the GOAT himself
Finally another episode on the 4680! Keep it up!
The foam part reminds me of boator surfboard composite construction techniques.
Thanks guys 👍👏
I love what you do. Thanks for sharing.
Can you guys at Munro find the vendor for the foam and ask what their take on this is? I'm guessing they have a specialty solvent that will ignore the other plastics. Reuse > Recycle > Waste
Or you just use the whole damned thing and plug it into a new battery storage system.
@@Barskor1 yep, after a car then it's house storage, milk whatever is left that way. Only need to grind it up when it's totally gone.
@@stevenson720 No. It is into the grinder for recycling. Recycling the minerals reduces the cost of new packs. "reuse" in the slogan "reduce, reuse, and recycle" is there just because most things cannot be recycled to make it seem like you are helping when you aren't. The low volume of people reusing EV packs is absolutely meaningless. Recycling 100% of packs is the real deal. This is what we need to close the loop. Once peak minerals are reached in the recycling loop, new mining is greatly reduced. Reuse for silly one off projects prevents recycling. Tesla will eventually hit people with a massive core charge if they keep their old packs because recycling is necessary to keep costs down and reduce pollution.
@@stevenson720 Indeed simple and practical.
@@_PatrickO That is end-of-life processing till then there is plenty of capacity in a EV battery.
Have you tested the thermal dissipation qualities of the pink foam?
Great reveal!! It will be interesting to see how other manufacturers make their battery packs.
Great to see Sandy!
Cory, Sandy and team Great video. Interesting comment from Sandy, 'Telsa does not have a limit on their capacity to invent' This permanent foam approach, a person can never do maintenance on this type of battery pack, means Telsa has lots of faith it will have extremely low failure rate.
Not to mention (to all the "but service" commenters) but if it's under warranty and fails, you get a complete new pack, *WINNER*
If it hasn't failed by then, it's likely to last much longer.
It also means ultium is a joke. It is designed for serviceability because GM has zero faith in their batteries. The companies that cut corners to reduce warranty risks will have less efficient cars that cannot compete. Tesla can probably recycle an entire pack to base minerals for less cost than a single in warranty cell replacement on an ultium pack.
@@rogerstarkey5390 yeah, this makes sense. Also, if you remember from the earlier videos from when they dropped the structural pack, it was among the simplest to remove from the rest of the car Munroe has torn down, iirc anyway. Meaning that once these are manufactured at scale, this is going to be a relatively simple procedure, decades from now when you finally do want to replace your battery because the rest of your car held up for 400K miles. And it will probably be cheaper and more energy dense by then as well.
Capacity to correct their errors and restart the learning curve for manufacturing.
@@rogerstarkey5390 What do you say to people buying a used vehicle outside of warranty? Too bad, go buy a new battery?
Sandy & Cory at the Tesla event you could see the exploded version of the battery pack with the inter cell side cooling channels. At such bigger volume for individual cells, it makes sense to cool the biggest surface and that is the side of it for sure. I bet the foam is thermal insulator, sound proofing against the road noise, structural rigidity improvement and fire retardant. It is a genius design and amassing innovation of what a structural battery pack, never attempted before, should be.
Yep. But there were many people who doubted that would actually go into the product. Bottom plate cooling was reiterated again and again by just about every Tesla channel after Battery Day so that it became the common consensus. Interesting, Lucid IS doing it, but Tesla isnt.
It'll be very interesting to see how the cooling channels are arranged and why Tesla is sticking with side-cooling. Cylindrical don't heat up evenly--they generate heat from the inside out, bottom to top, which is why pack designs like Lucid's, use end-cooling. Tesla might be using side-cooling due to manufacturing considerations or due to them building one big battery pack rather than a series of modules inside a pack
You mean a battery pack that is essentially just something to throw away after the use in the car right!? Because there is absolutely no way that thing can be reused for other applications after the car life! That’s a disaster
@@carholic-sz3qv Yes it absolutely can and will. Stable storage is a MUCH more pressing demand than overpriced conversions.
thanks Munro team!
Thanks!
First of all, great video breaking apart the different components! One thing I am wondering is the composition of the pinkish foam. Is it fire proof? How it’s helping cooling the battery? It must be some kind of high efficiency thermal-conducting material right?
YES, fire retardent foam , extingushes fire , creates protective barrier so adjacent cells dont catch fire also acts as a Insualtor .
does not help cool the battery , acts as Insulation , like a ice chest.
the Active cooling come from the Ribbons filled w/ non flamable Coolant.
Looks like the 800 dollar price tag for one cell might turn into a money losing proposition for Munro! This pack is going to take hundreds of hours to take apart.
1 Cell maybe 10$
This is all very interesting. Its amazing what Tesla is doing. And to think its all completely recyclable. Very cool. Thank you.
Thanks for the informative video.
Guy's its always great to see you all digging into the weeds to figure this stuff out!! Love it and subscribed. Also shows how well designed the Tesla is compared to everyone else. You guys have taken apart the cars and now the batteries to show just how well designed these machines just are. Good luck everyone else. The media makes it sound so easy that others are going to be competing with Tesla. Yeah, they can have an electric car, but is it worth a sh!t?
I love Teslas, but don't discount the other guys. Loads of intelligent engineers working all over, all collectively learning from each others' designs and past failures.
Just hold off on the first or possibly second generation of anything.
I recall when working with LN2 in a lab in my youth we froze bananas, balloons and other foodstuffs and regularly played "catch" - oops, dropped it! - breaks into a thousand pieces. Great fun. (Not quite "molecules falling apart" as Sandy thinks though.) Notably, left to unfreeze, everything turns to a yucky mush, particularly bananas.
I think Sandy might be on the right track but also hope Tesla will have thought carefully about how they will make the recycle process work, "at the end of the day". That battery pack is clearly designed to deter anyone from being nosey too. Regarding Elon's comment (8:11) I have said for decades that folk should buy shares in landfill sites - there's a rich materials resource just waiting to be used.
Thanks Sandy and co. The 4860s are cells. All connected together they constitute a battery, in this case 204S4P 800V (nominal) traction battery
Great insights. Thanks a lot!!!
That top layer of insulating material looks like G10 Glastic material. Used in electrical applications like switchgear and motors.
Looks more like natural nylon to me (no dye added). The dry ice blasting has given it a bit of a matt texture but still not as matt as g10. Also g10 is an order more expensive than nylon, it cant be injection moulded and has to be machined for shapes like the one we see, which would further increase the cost and slow down production (injection moulding=good for high volume production). Not to mention its weight penalty over nylon.
The future looks awesome ! Thanks Monro & Team !
With this battery packaging not at all!
Cool video. Thanks for explaining the recycling process, really interesting 👌
You believe it?
Great video, thank you!
Flat wire is sometimes used to reduce inductance. Not sure if it applies here.
It's also often used for high current connections by ultrasonic wedge bonding.
I wouldn't expect inductance to be an issue for DC, but perhaps the inverter draws current from the battery pack in high frequency pulses. I would think that a flat wire also has superior heatsinking potential.
@@mattgraham4340
They are fusable links and flat ribbon wire is used rather than traditional round wire since it provides a better wire to substrate bond. The flat wide surface of the wire works well with the wedge tool bonding 'head'.
Another example, internal welder connections. I would guess also easy to spot weld flat wire. Looks like from what can be seen none of the battery cases are inverted as a way to series the 4680 voltages. Excited to see when they get the rest of the top cover off as to how everything is connected
@@danlewis243 The batteries have positive and negative on one end, so no need to invert any. This is fairly common in the industry for exactly that reason. The entire bottom, sides, and part of the top are all anode.
This battery feels like a slap in the face to the DIY recycling community. Every Tesla that has crashed after 2-10 years so far has had the batteries removed and re-used in another vehicle. But now it's not possible for a regular shop to remove the batteries.
Dissolve the polyurethane & they can maybe rip the cells out but yeah you’re kinda right
Yes, Tesla has eliminated the "reuse" from the mantra, reduce, reuse, recycle. That isn't a step forward, except for Tesla.
The pack also seems to have parts that could go bad and could be replaced but now you gotta replace the whole pack. It's wasteful overall and more money on the consumer.
@@JJayzX, so you engineer the failure rates to near zero.
@@kylenolan2710 lol, that isn't realistic. Just not how things work in the real world.
Gold! gold! Such good info.
As a mechanical engineer and Tesla investor these videos are like Christmas for me. Keep up the great work guys!
As a Tesla fan and investor I can’t wait to see the technology that will come out with the Cybertruck which I’m a reservation holder. I’m hanging on Elon’s words indicating that it might just be Tesla’s best product.
Maybe you should sell your stock because this design sucks!
LOL, stop rubbing your dick mate.
I think that the thickness of the cans and the amount of adhesion was just a precaution for 4680. Once they are more confident I can see them optimizing the structure and gaining density.
Also they might be compensating for the material used for the canister. Using a different formula for the canister now that the batteries are structural might save money and weight. This is me just guessing, I’m not an expert by any stretch.
Glad to hear about the recyclability of these packs and of course is essential for sustainability of the technology going forward into the new and strange modern world we live in
Great video, thank you.
The dry-ice blaster is badass.
so is a thermal FOAM hot Knife.
with this amount of foam, this battery pack should insulate noise and vibration coming from underside something like rolls royce level.
But it's a small piece of floor only. And bolted to the chassis.
Great picture of the recycling process
REALLY COOL!!! love your expertise!
Very informative battery unit autopsy, thanks! The process improvements methodology at Tesla must be amazing. They are so agile with seamless design change integration it is truly impressive. Sandy, your team is most innovative! Carry on.