My very first rpg character was a 1st edition Bard. Worked him all the way to 23rd level.We used the Greyhawk campaign, he eventually retired after taking control of the Sea Thieves kingdom and sired my future characters until we left AD&D for Rolemaster and then on to my own game. Good memories. I remember reading that article as well!
That is quite a feat considering the requirements of the class! You are part of an elite club that played one! I created a Bard once for 1E but only as an NPC so I didn't have to roll for the stats and go through the process of leveling through two other classes. Thank you for watching the video and sharing your history with the class! It's always fun for me to read about other peoples' experiences with stuff like this. Cheers!
The Bard's Handbook in 2nd edition had kits that were very different from the other books. They did not tweak the existing class to match a theme. They were different classes, with different class features, combat abilities, thieving skills and spellcasting. In that, they resembled the specialty priests from the Complete Priest's Handbook. That's why they put there the true bard kit. It was the template for all those variant classes, with the basic array of bonus proficiencies and class features, for reference and comparison, but also to explain how to create your own bard kits. Besides, I think there was a generic kit for all classes that was published in one of the first of those booklets: the adventurer kit. It basically represented the standard classes without any change.
Barbarian bard hybrid: lore of the wilderness and one small tribe. Strength dance. Herbalism. Bongos and bow and bone flute. Garrote wire. Intimidation skill. A curse hanging over him/her.
In some Celtic stories/mythologies the bard was the role someone had before they became a Druid. The first step of being a Druid was to learn all the oral histories and tales. The bard focused on that, since telling these tales was practice and a valuable skill. Then the bard would learn the priestly responsibilities and become a Druid. Becoming a bard in itself took many years of study so apprentice bard was an occupation in itself.
IRL, the bardic level names in 1st edition were Irish filidh level names, which described exactly what year of filidh school you had finished, and hence what you had memorized in the way of information, tales, and poems. They exactly paralleled the schooling level names of Irish monks who went to the university-like schools for Scripture study. Irish filidh were poets with a side order of Christian prophecy, and almost always were of poet family. (Same thing with historians, genealogists, etc.) They were always free, had the legal status of "man of art" along with smiths and physicians, had a retinue (horse, harper, and reciter/singer), and could memorize huge amounts of material. Irish bards were "normal" musicians/singers/composers, without the ritual requirements of a filidh, but with lower legal status and pay. They could be slave or free. They had a different level list, which basically described their legal status.
In Ireland, the filidh had a special relationship with the lord or king that he served. He was the voice of the law and the people, or even of the land itself. (Because filidh had to memorize the names of every topographical feature in the entire area, plus their legends, myths, and historical associations.) The king's filidh had the right to sleep in the king's own bed, and to keep his eye on the king, and give all sorts of unasked advice. OTOH, the filidh also had the job of keeping the king's most important guests and family entertained with conversation, as well as telling tales verbatim and composing poems of praise, or making prophecies on occasion. And that's in a literate Christian society, mind you. Filidh composed poetry without writing it down, although they were very literate and did write down whole books of poetry. Memorization was kind of wound up with their mystical abilities, although all scholarly people in the Middle Ages did a ton of memorization. (The Ars Memoriae, which came down from Greco-Roman times, were a big thing. Illuminated manuscripts are actually memory aids, which is why you have funny pun-filled drawings in the margins.) The satirist was a special kind of filidh that didn't serve any one lord, but who had such a savage form of poetry that it was supposed to be deployed only on really bad people. (A really good satirist could kill animals like rats by insulting them.) He had special protection from the laws that regulated insults and reputation. But even though people would treat a satirist with respect, out of fear of the consequences, he wasn't really liked much. People from filidh families would often become priests, monks, or nuns, as well as following their traditional professions. Filidh were some of the first Christian converts of high status in Ireland, and thus this was a well-established career path. (And they already knew the art of memory from childhood, which made monk schools a lot easier.)
Irish monastic schools originally didn't teach the monks every day; they sent the student monks off every other day, to walk around and ask for dinner from charitable people in the neighborhood. Well, the same was true for filidh schools. One day, they'd be taught various stuff about composition or would memorize a tale or poem; and the teachers would feed the students. The next day, the students would scatter out to the neighborhood, and perform the duties of a visiting filidh for their kind and well-to-do hosts, who would feed them. Filidh schools were not grouped close to the monastic schools, though, because obviously there's only so much charity in a neighborhood, even if you provide entertainment and conversation.
My first dnd character ended up able to qualify for bard. I played that character for years. Jethro Tull retired at 13th or 14th level. I had that dragon mag with the new bard "not so hard" class. It was cool. I wanted to play one of those but it never happened
You sort of answered your own question as to why bards are seen as amorous, but there's some more historical context, too. There's a significant difference between bards in pre-literate societies and those in post literate societies. In societies that are still reliant on oral tradition, I can see a bard being a member of the priest class. First edition had that right in many ways. They would be responsible for things like genealogy and the pedigree of important families. In many cases they would also be recorders of traditions and sometimes law. These are critical tasks--bards are one of the guardians of what binds people together in civil society. Episode 3 of Michael Wood's documentary In Search of the Trojan War is titled "The Singer of Tales," and it explores the oral tradition in a very interesting way. In literate civilizations, the bard losses much of it's priestly influences. While they could still be critical to things like PR, they are not the protectors of civil norms like they would be in civilizations that are dependent on oral traditions. Long charts and family trees of royalty and nobility are written down and kept in temples or churches. Histories are kept on scrolls and in books and not dependent on the bard for his retelling of epic tales. This is when you have the troubadour poets who spread romances in the 11th and 12th centuries to consider, who were quite popular among noble women in the high middle ages because of the tales of courtly love they were famous for. "They would come to town and charm your wives and daughters." You also have to consider that these were people who were dependent on noble patronage, and that position of power could be taken advantage of. Just consider that in later years, opera divas were often mistresses to nobles. Actresses of given troupes would use their charms to secure patronage. Remember, acting for instance was considered an unclean profession, alongside prostitutes. HBO's Rome drove this point home. So there's that. And then there's the point you also touched on. These were the rock stars of their age, and they lived up to the hilt. Just like Rock stars in our day and age. You see this in the pulp fiction magazines that inspired D&D, like Conan and the Lankhmar stories. Fafrhd used music to charm women. He and the Mouser were living a short and merry lives. That's where the trope comes from. It depends on how adult the game your running is. Is it Willow, or is it 13th Warrior, or is it Game of Thrones? Everyone at my table is over 50, so we like imaging we are still in our 20s when we play, where we are all young and still sexy---because that never lasts in the real world.
@@YouTellemFrosk Thanks. This is something I've given some amount of thought to. While my main setting is a literate renaissance society, where 2nd edition bards would be the norm---on the very fringes of settled lands, I have tribes that are more Norse/Anglo-Saxon in character, who are dependent on oral tradition. This is where I make bards a sub-class of priest--more in line with the flavor of the 1st Ed. bards. While there were a lot of very cool concepts within it, the 1st edition bard was a character class that was too much of a pain to play--plus when the rest of your party is 9th and 10th level and near ready to retire, your bard is only 1st or 2nd, and yet has the hit points of an 8th level fighter...??? What level adventuring party does he/she need to run with? As game designers, Gary Gygax and Dave Arenson were authentic geniuses, but not everything they did worked flawlessly. And some of Gary's rules in particular could lack nuance.
@@andrewlustfield6079I’m not so sure about your second paragraph. An old friend of mine is going to join our campaign for a few sessions so I gave him 60,001xp to make a character with, thinking he’d want to play a 7th level MU. Instead, he went for 5/5/6 bard. We run btb 1e, so with the weakness of the Identity spell, the Legend Lore ability alone will be pretty powerful. Plus Charm. 5d10 plus 5d6 hp isn’t bad either. Granted, a 5/6 MU/illusionist would be pretty strong too!
Dang your story towards the end was hilarious. A Bard taking advantage of a person who no one understands and acts as their interpreter is a great story beat
I've been wanting to make a bard as warrior-skald like Snorri ver Snaggasson for a while: gets along well with anyone, tells stories that immerse everyone, make impassioned speeches that inspire the best from allies, and dramatically capable in melee combat. And all without guile or manipulation. They make it hard, though.
I really appreciate the deep dives you do for this game. The Bard in particular was my first class and I have always enjoyed the fascinating history of its origin, inclusion, and evolution in D&D.
The cool thing about the Meistersinger was it allowed you to multiclass with Ranger. So you could have 6/8 of the Rogue skills without being a Rouge, cast both Arcane and Divine spells without being a Priest or Mage, and fight pretty good without being a Warrior. It was the ultimate Jack of all Trades option. With my old 2E Meistersinger/Ranger I could fill in for any other class as an understudy. Which was much more noteworthy and harder to do in that edition.
First of all, please allow me to express my deep appreciation for you and your channel! I'm an avid gaming historian, and have looked in the past for people doing more about it with little success, so was delighted to find my way here! I started playing in '83, when I was 11, with Red Box Basic (though like you, we mistakenly mixed it with AD&D in the beginning!), and have been primarily a GM, running a variety of systems and genres over the years. I must say however, in response to this video in particular, that while you may have been fortunate enough to have not encountered it, the "lascivious bard " trope FAR predates 3e. I'm my experience, it sprang from the fact that there were many players who were hormonal teenage boys, and the bard was a Cha high character, with a charm ability. Let your imagination run wild. They certainly did. 😜 Not that it's something that ever played long in my games, even back in the day. I always took things too seriously for that. Gaming is a big part of my life, and my identity. I'm glad I have players who look for the same kind of narratives and degree of character development I am in the games I run!
The bard really occupies such a weird space in D&D. It's always been seen as that sort of jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. My favorite version of a bard I ever played was in 4e I played a bard with a wand as a conductor with a baton, and I took a lot of powers that moved people around. So I was this little gnome with big Beethoven hair conducting the battlefield with an extremely severe and serious look on his face. Everyone thought it was a riot because it went against that lascivious bard stereotype, which even in 4e was starting to become heavily entrenched.
It's very telling that bards used to have tendencies for lawful alignment "since they depend on custom and culture to make their living" and in 3rd edition they can't be lawful to the point when "a bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard". From nature-loving, truthful, scholarly divine-spellcasters to city-loving, deceitful, scoundrelly arcane-spellcasters. It's interesting like bards is the only d&d class that throughout editions have changed 180. Even barbarian haven't changed that drastically.
I love the videos about the old classes. I used the Judges Guild and they used all of the old classes that appeared in Dragon and White Dwarf magazine. The Bard and Houri, Alchemist and Sage and others were used because that was what we had back then. But in order to use them you had to have a copy of those magazines with the character class in it.
Really appreciated your deep dive into the history of the bard across all D&D editions. Your point about the modern portrayal of bards as promiscuous and aloof characters, rather than the knowledgeable historians, warrior poets, and performers they're rooted in, really struck a chord with me. It's crucial to remember that in times when literacy was rare, history was often preserved and passed on through stories and songs, with information spreading through the travels of such individuals. A prime example that embodies what bards could truly represent is Tom Merrilin from Wheel of Time-a master of courtly intrigue, a well-traveled keeper of lore, a performer, and even a spy. This multifaceted approach is exactly how I love portraying my bards; it's a class that offers so much depth and versatility. Your video has sparked further appreciation for what bards can bring to the table, beyond the stereotypes.
That's a huge compliment, and I'm really glad you got something out of it. That was really my intent for this video, to help folks see bards in a different way, as I think they sometimes have a bad reputation due to the stereotypes.
YESSSSS!!!! I was just thinking about Bards yesterday, and recently was searching and re-reading the Bard's Handbook (which is amazing IMO) and started enjoying the class more and more
The 2nd edition books were my main form of D&D growing up (after starting with mentzer red box). I've always loved the art of the PHB and DMG and found it really evocative of the kinda fantasy I associate with dnd. That picture on the bard page has always made me think of strange, romantic legends. The sleeping / cursed warrior woman seems like a much cooler Sleeping Beauty. And it suggested to me that bard aren't just grubbing in treasure chests or fighting monsters, they're exploring mysteries and dealing with history and legends. I never knew it was from a previous module! Thanks for another great video b
I really appreciate you watching and commenting! Thank you so much! Yes! That illustration by Easley is Drelzna, Iggwilv's (aka Tasha's) daughter, and is a Fighter Vampire!
Good one Dad! The bard was always an enigma, and no I never played one. Chainmail has a troop type in it called the Superhero, and I have to wonder if maybe that is where the Bard comes from. AD&D's answer to the Superhero.
Ha! I'd never thought of that! I just recently did a video in which I talked about level titles and how Chainmail had troop types of "Hero" (the equivalent of "four figures") and "Superhero" (twice as strong as a Hero), and then how in D&D, you see that the Level Title for a 4th Level Fighter is "Hero" and for an 8th Level Fighter is "Superhero." Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 I've never fully figured out Chainmail. Does that mean a hero takes four hits, when the standard for normal humanoids is one? Can a hero wallop four humanoid enemies?
A quirk we noticed with the 2e bard is their xp. AD&D 2e started giving class-specific xp (more or less optionally), fighters got more xp for defeating foes, wizards and clerics got xp for spells and scrolls, thieves were the only ones who still got xp for pure gold. As they were good at a bit of everything (half thief skills, decent THAC0, could use a few weapons) they also got a bit of xp for everything. With the xp progression of a rogue, they shot far ahead. Our level 5 bard was easily overtake the level 3 wizard in spell power. The bard could Enlarge people bigger than the wizard, more times per day and survive a bar fight or a stray dog much better.
I can see that! It's actually by Terry Dyksra. Terry and Valerie Valusek did all the interior art for the book (at least, the pieces that hadn't been previously published in other supplements).
Looking at Dykstra's art now and I can see a lot of Cockrum in his art, between the thick lines, the hard shadows, the facial hair and the fondness for chonky monsters.
I remember when A Bard's Tale came out in 2004 for the Xbox and PS2. That's my reference point in time when the amorous bard was cemented as the baseline. I thought that was a weird take at the time. Reviewers also pointed that out, probably more because the original game's humor didn't skew so lasciviously.
A few people have mentioned that game, but I never played it (my video game knowledge is woefully lacking) so it never occurred to me to check that out as a possible source of the stereotype. Thanks for sharing!
Great video. One of my (few) claims to fame from my teen years in AD&D was that I had a Bard rise from lvl 1(for) to Bard 23. As far as the horny bard thing, I know this wasn't the first time it happened, but I think the preponderance of that stereotype in the last 5 years or so is largely because of the popularity of Critical Role. In their first campaign, Sam Reigel played the bard Scanlan who was absolutely this stereotype, and since Sam is a great improv actor and player, he was at that time the most popular player on the show.
Another great video! The bard is an interesting class that most newer players don’t really understand. The 1st Ed Bards were for higher level play. From my experience, very few players were interested in playing them. I mainly encountered them as NPCs. I did have one friend who liked to play them, but it took so long to build one we didn’t play those characters long after he hit a couple levels on bard. I was not impressed with the 2E bard. The complete Bards Handbook made them interesting. I had a friend who created his own kit using that book. He called it the condottiere. It was sort of a combination of the Blade and the Skald. He did a great job with roll playing it. He played the PC like Erol Flynn, kind of an over the top flashy swordsman with a quip for every situation. Reminded me of the old Zorro movies. That’s how I’ve pictured bards ever since. To me 3.5E Bards came closest to that build my friend created. They were fun to play and had enough unique abilities to play their own role in a party. I have not played a 4E Bard or played with one in a game. It might be because I didn’t play 4E much. I’d like to see someone play one. If you know of a UA-cam or Twitch channel which has one let me know. Not a big fan of 4E but it does have some interesting mechanics. I’ve played a couple of 5e bards and most parties I’ve DMed for has had a bard PC.i do think the 5E bard is a good class. I’m particularly fond of the Valor bard. I think it captures that style I like. Although the Whisper College bard from Xanathar’s has a good spy vibe. I have enjoyed playing a Glamour bard though too. I played one in a Ravenloft campaign, he was mainly comic relief and support for my Daughters character. She played a Fighter Battle Master built as a Body Guard theme. She was kind of my straight man to my Self-centered legend in my own mind Musician. Loved your anecdotes on the barbarian. That’s sounds like it was a lot of fun. I would have loved that game. It took me a bit to come back and comment on this one. I really enjoyed it. Looking forward to your next video!
The best bard I had at a table was a skald in EZd6. He was just so happy to be included with the party on the adventure…and tried to chronicle events afterward.
Surprised there was no mention of my namesake in the DnD rules. Taliesin could turn around armies with a clever quip. Not into any whisky that isn't Scotch but love Marvin Gaye. Keep doing what you're doing mate!
I can't believe I never thought of the rockstars of that time being some of the original inspiration for the first D&D bards. I always assumed they were purely historical and literary inspirations, but in the case of the modern lecherous bard trope, it makes sense. They do make great inspirations for player characters or NPCs. But personally, I'd go more with a whimsical folk singer like Donovan or Nick Drake if I were to play a bard based off a popular musician. While Jim Morrison would make a good bard, I see him more as a shaman/druid type character leading a cult of Lizardmen! Lastly, fantastic "listening to" record at the end! What's Going On is definitely one of those albums you can listen to from start to finish without skipping a single track. Every song flows beautifully into the next, working best when listened to as a complete work. Another wonderful video!
Wow, I didn't think there was this much history. thank you for the in-depth video. I'm not exactly sitting here watching it minute by minute but I have it on in the background as I'm doing stuff.
Yes, indeed! I had forgotten about that one. Thanks for the reminder! And, thank you for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel. Cheers!
I'm most familiar with the 2nd edition Bard and the way I justified it in-world was to say that they were a network of agents (hence the thief skills) masquerading as minstrels (who are welcome in any setting) that would use entertainment to pass on both moral content to the populace and coded messages to each other. They eventually managed to cast some arcade spells by using the mnemonics of sung storytelling. Their political objective was maintaining a balance-of-power in which all nations stayed small. I gave a nod to their 1st edition connection with Druids by saying they shared in both that objective and a common cultural origin (even if they now were worldwide). A friend played a bard in my last campaign with an interesting twist on the current trend. She was surprisingly reserved, seeing herself as a match-maker more than a bed-hopper. :) Incidentally, someone like Marvin Gaye exemplifies both the political and seductive aspects of a Bard - such a character can both move a crowd to feel a common cause _and_ seduce a particular member of that crowd. To reduce that role to a one-note lothario is rather limiting.
I loved Order of the Stick back in the day. I used to read it all the time during my lunch hour at my office, as I didn't have a computer at home back then. Great stuff!
I play either 5e or BECMI. I wanted a bard in BECMI and I only have the RC so I used the non-combat skills and added them to the classes that do exist. The magic-user, thief, and elf I think would make a good bard in this way. I change their spell casting ability from intelligence to charisma. Change Read Magic to Read Music. And change the spell book to a song book. While I was listening to this video I was drinking an Old Fashioned that I made using 1 oz J Riegers Bourbon and 1 oz Gran Marnier. Sweetened with blue agave and some bitters.
Thanks for the video, this was super interesting. I love that DCC convention story! What a fun game that must've been. P.S. Beekeeper is the best background. I'm not a huge fan of 5e, but I love how competent bards are there. They were almost a bit of a laughing stock in 3.PF, to the point where most comics and such make them out to be useless, but in 5e they're powerhouses. Really lets you lean into the idea of the warrior-poet or musician.
I like both... it just depends on my mood and whether I'm sipping it neat or having a cocktail. For a Manhattan, I prefer Rye. For an Old Fashioned Whiskey Cocktail, a Paper Plane, or a Whiskey Sour, I usually default to Bourbon.
So many things to comment on in this one... 1. The lascivious minstrel has been a stock trope in western lit quite a long time. Generally from the European medieval era forward traveling performers and other nomadic types (the Romani and the Travelers in particular) were treated with a high degree of suspicion due to being outsiders in the local social hierarchy with no ready means of accountability if they engaged in that type of frivolous behavior with a local girl. Because of the cursory similarities from within a modern perspective, bards and other similar professions have been painted with the same broad brush including in plenty of fantasy literature the last hundred years or so. 2. I always quite liked the Bard class ending up with Druid spells, considering the period when AD&D was being published also saw a fairly significant rise in OBOD members and renewed interest in Druidism among the general public. 3. Funny aside here since Roger E Moore got mentioned, he and I used to run in the same fandom circles online around 15 years ago. Really solid guy from what few direct interactions I ever had with him, though by that point wanted nothing to do with the role playing hobby due to burnout. 4. My personal theory for the Complete Bard having all the redundant info like it did is that TSR created the book leaving it open for players/GMs to engage in syncretic incorporation as had long been the habit, which would also sell more copies of the book. 5. I was watching this with my friend who surprisingly had no idea about DCC and had to try and explain to him on the fly how the funnel format works. 6. I feel with you on loving a good rye whiskey. As much a bourbon has been the in thing for whiskey lately, I've always found it a bit too sweet for my palate. Rye and Irish are my go-tos, and Scotch for rare special occasions. 7. Marvin Gaye si an exceptional choice for listening to while contemplating the Bard class I'd say.
In Birthright, bards are the class least suited to run a realm. The bardic colleges don't like their members to be tied too hard to the rulers, and becoming one is an automatic resignation from a bard career. Bards have the power to sweep in at any damn moment across the region, join rulers on their adventures and then spread the word. They're the ones who will probably visit the most different courts.
That Marvin Gaye album is a stone cold classic! Regarding bards I had very little interest in them until I watched this video. Now I want to play as one! Please keep up the long form videos. I love all the info. (Regarding horny bards proliferating… I blame critical roll…)
This is a huge compliment! I am always thrilled when someone says I inspired them to look at the game or a particular concept in a new light. Thanks! And yes, thanks for watching through to the album portion! It's such a great album! I completely forgot about Critical Roll, as I've never watched it, but a few folks mentioned that connection and I think you're probably right that it at least cemented the concept in peoples' minds. Thanks again!
@@daddyrolleda1 I watched the first few episodes of the cartoon and it's very clear how the bard in that show is. I didn't find it worth finishing, and I've never watched the web series the cartoon was based on.
Complete Bard was one of the most used and well loved book back in our 2e days. It was a popular class. And I have to say I'm shocked at how much stuff actually does get rehashed for filler.
Wish I had found out about dragon 56 back in the day. I allowed the bard as the exception to humans multiclassing, treating A BARD as a multi class fighter/thief/druid but at 5000+xp per level (and restrictions), it was not a popular choice. I also played I.C.E middle earth role playing game in the 80's- 90's, one of its prime character class was a bard; who was a jack of all trades and the only one specialising in languages. Great to play because you got so many options. Then we come to ORKY McORKFACE, my halforc bard whose specialist instrument was the Highland Bagpipes, (my only pathfinder character) very entertaining (for me). Also you may remember or have access to the old (1984) TV series "Robin the hooded man", one of the stories in one of the series featured Alan A Dale, which was great because (I copy and paste here)- "Alan a Dale is a lovesick and a rather daft minstrel who is on his way to Nottingham to kill the Sheriff. An incredulous Robin wants to know why". A very different twist on the romancer theme. Going on again;... because of the interesting and thought provoking content; as usual.
MERP is a game closer to Tolkien's Bilbo. Every PC we had knew at least 2-3 languages and bards knew even more. I remember that MERP bards could do some light spellcasting as well. Ours shot a bow and managed a few spells a day.
King David ben Jessi of the tribe of Judah - historical Bard. He did make mistakes of the amorous kind, which led to such tragedies as bretrayal and murder and eventual civil war against his son Absalom, whom David refused to kill, as the figurehead of the opposing force. Great source for a campaign around a bard taken seriously instead of for innuendo jokes.
Bard was always my favourite Class. Trouble was, because I spent so much time DM'ing I could never play one, because every time I played it would be with a new character that started out at first level, and the game would only last a few weeks, meaning I struggled to even get to the Thief stage. One of my favourite changes in 2E was Bard being a class in its own right and starting at level 1! In my current 2E game, I keep dropping in Bard NPCs just in case the party decide to recruit one of them, so I can at least pretend to play one. I have to say that I had no problem with the Complete Book of Bards covering the basic Bard rules from the PHB. The the Complete Books always annoyed me a bit because for the most part they DIDN'T include the PHB archetype. "The Complete Book..." should have the basic class to qualify as being "Complete". It allows the player to have THAT book at the table, rather than that book AND The PHB, and the PHB can just be a general refernece guide for spells etc. I think the modern Bard portrayed as Horny Serial Shagger is just a flat, generic (and a llittle bit lazy) way to use Charisma without needing to be particularly creative.
Summon and dispel rats / dispel children should be a natural ability 😂 I never once got to use the bard in 1e. I think I will fix this one day soon, this will be a great class to play I’m sure
You'd better use some of those alternative ability score generation tables from Unearthed Arcana and then set aside a few years to play as a Fighter and then Thief before you can be a Bard! Good luck! 😄
You are the only one so far who has commented on that poem I mentioned! Thank you! I think it sounds like a fun character idea and if you do play one, make sure to come back and chat about it in the comments. Cheers!
One thing I've always kind of wondered about that 1st edition AD&D bard - in normal dual-classing rules you can use all the skills and abilities of your first class once your second class exceeds the level of the first, which includes weapons and armor. So, can bards also then use their fighter and thief weapon skills once their bard level gets high enough? I know bard isn't a normal dual-class scenario, and the list of usable weapons would tend to suggest no, but there's definitely an argument to say yes. They do get to retain their fighter THAC0 and thiefly skills, after all, but they get to use those starting right away and don't have to wait to level up their bard level, so it's clearly an exception to dual-classing rules. The rules for bard in 1st edition are such a mess. As DM, should you ever have a player qualify for it and want to play it, you'll have to come up with a ton of house-rules for the class given how many question marks still surround it.
I've always read it as though normal dual class rules still apply to the Bard, so once his thief abilities exceed his fighter abilities, he gains the ability to use both freely, even though it's probably at that moment they actually revert back to first level and begin as a bard. The problem is that at that point who do they go adventuring with? Let's say, for argument sake, that the player advances their character to an 8th level fighter to start with. Equally, lets say they have a 16 con, which isn't unreasonable. If you figure 5.5 rolls on every level, you have 60 HP first level thief. Then the character needs to advance to 9th level thief, which following dual class rules, would add another 48 HP on straight average rolls. You now have a 108 HP 1st level bard. Now, once they are a first level bard, the writing is very clear, they may use their fighter and thief skills freely as a first level bard. So now does the character stay with their adventuring party? Because the rest of the party isn't going to want to take breaks in mid-adventure for the bard character to return to town to train so he or she can advance a level. The rest of the party is needing 100,000-200,000+ experience to advance in level. Staying with their comrades of many levels will mean the bard essentially sacrifices the experience points that exceed the maximum experience points for their next level. Or do you wave the training rules and give the bard the ability to essentially skip levels? If you go this route, what's the point of having all those intervening levels? In a 1st-3rd level dungeon the bard will completely over power their opponents because, yes, they are are a first level bard, but they are also fighting as an 8th level fighter and preforming thief checks at 9th level ability. The way it is written is one of those cases, like the cavalier and barbarian, where Gary started with a really cool concept, but the implementation is just unworkable. In my own campaign, I make the bard from pre-literate cultures a subclass of priests. They have limited access to some thieving skills---basically everything except pick pockets and read languages because they are from a pre literate society--reading languages would be foreign to them. I also don't allow bards to back stab--that just doesn't seem to fit with the warrior poet. I use the fighter combat tables, but they are not allowed to weapon specialize, because of the dedicated focus that actually takes. At 7th level, they are able to start making multiple attacks a round as per the fighter in the PHB--7-12 attacking 3/2, and at 13+ 2/1. But they do not get exceptional strength. I give them a priest's D:8 hit die. Charm percentages and legend lore abilities are as written in the PHB. Bards from pre literate cultures also have profound social importance in their home cultures and would be treated as specialist priests. They do get additional languages--spoken only though. (And when you really think about it--they would be lawful in regards to their home laws and customs--for example, paying wergild without being asked when it's appropriate.)
Thank you so much! I always forget about buying alcohol at Costco! I *think* we have a membership but we never go as it is quite far from us and the parking is horrendous. Glad you enjoyed the video, and thank you for watching and commenting!
The bard is a performer, has a high Charisma, wanders from town to town, I think these all lend themselves toward the lascivious lifestyle trope. Then it gets reinforced by the Scanlan and Dandelion characters of (what i guess is now) pop culture.
Thank you for watching through to the end! I really appreciate it. And I'm glad you enjoyed that story. It's one of my favorite gaming stories. Cheers!
I've loved the idea of the bard since 1st edition because of Alan-a-dale from Robin Hood. I also really dislike the "horny bard" stereotype. My bard in Pathfinder was based on Jem and the Holograms; she used illusion magic for special effects and costume changes while inspiring the party.
I’m a Utahn and I am definitely proud that High West is out there and they are great. But I favorite offering from our state is the Triple oaked bourbon from Alpine distillery. They are from the same city and definitely suggest you give it a try.
Hear hear! I totally agree. I hate the modern take on bards. I am making a reworked edition of D&D 3.5/Pathfinder inspired by classic D&D/AD&D 2nd ed. My take on the bard is a mix of AD&D and the old bard’s tale computer games (the 80’s game not the modern consol game) 😊
I have a severe lack of knowledge about video games so I never even thought of checking out Bard's Tale, but a few people have mentioned it in the comments. A 3.5/PF1E bard with elements/inspiration from 2E sounds great!
@@daddyrolleda1 I am doing YT videos on my whole D&D Rework on a channel called @TheGrandfathersCave . This week I oploaded the Cleric and the Scoundrel classes, next week it will be Warriors & Wizards, and the week after that I will have the Barbarian and the Bard. I had been stuck for a while on the barbarian, but your video on the history of the barbarian was really good at bringing me back on track. Thanks! 😉
Oh, geez, I'd forgot how impossible it was to make out the writing in 3rd Edition, because there was all that extraneous marking on the pages. Not as bad as Shadowrun, but pretty bad.
Yeah, I hadn't really noticed it at the time, but as I look back on them now, it is a little difficult to read, and also the page layout in 3E was much more "sparse" than even in 3.5. Thank you for watching and commenting!
I totally agree with your opinion of the "bards are always horny" trope. But as you say, if everyone at the table enjoys it, do whatever you want. It's just not to my taste. This is partly what session zeros are for. Do we want a dark and gritty game or one filled with silly jokes?
Exactly! It is important to discuss that stuff up front so everyone is aligned as to the type of game being played. Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
Have you considered speaking or working with game designed David J Propoketz? He's done a ton of posts on the history of DnD, might be a boon to your research. Can't wait for the next video on realm management?
There were cases of marching band members. That would accompany soldiers in the field. The stories of bards blaring their songs in a dungeon for a magical benefit. Which, in turn lets all the residence in said dungeon know of their whereabouts. Music from the underground automatically starts a mosh pit. Its no different here.
Ah, the Bard, perhaps the least understood class by both newbs and experienced players. A bard can be very fun, it just helps if one sees the possibilities.
I think they can be quite a fun class, but I've been utterly mystified over the past few years at their description as "horny" and seeing memes on social media saying, "If your PC isn't horny, are they even a Bard?" kind of thing, which I just don't get. That's one way to play a Bard, sure. But it's one of like more than a hundred ways to approach it!
@@daddyrolleda1 I think part of the problem with people's perception of the Bard class is based on what they think a bard would be in our current world. 50% of the time a new player will immediately think rock star, instead of the old trubladoors (spelling?) and travelling story tellers. I once played a bard in a barbarian adventuring company and justified doing so by claiming my character is a wannabe lore master (storyteller) for the tribe.
I had been thinking of asking for this: the history of the bard class is a weird one and I wanted to understand it better. Historical bards were kind of replaced by clerics and it seems like in the game they morphed from oral clerics into troubadours with stage magic come real. Several Order of the Stick characters were written against type (especially the fighter) and I don't see how the bard being written as not having two brain cells to rub together led into the amorous bard trope of today...
One type of definitely not fantasy "bard" is the rockerboy from Cyberpunk 2013/2020. With the newfangled computer game being out, I think people are more familiar with Johnny Silverhand. Rockerboys are street poets and iconoclasts and stylemakers. From crappy little garage bands to the people playing on major stations and performing for entire stadiums. All jobs in that game are defined by a handful of skills, and one class-unique skill. Rockerboys get to pick skills relevant to music production, performance, style and smooth-talking people. Their unique skill Charismatic Leadership swayed crowds. Specifically crowds, not specific individuals. A rockerboy can stand up and speak to a crowd to calm it, rile it up, direct it that moment. "Eurotour" was a campaign in the European Economic Community where you babysit a rockerboy on a tour through the eurotheater. You are security goons, roadies, comp musicians, PR shills and others.
I think the reason why bards can get saddled with being the seducer in the party is because roleplaying games have social interactions and charming or seducing can be a viable solution. The bard is social, has powers that affect emotions and feelings towards them. They have the highest Charisma in the party. They have the skills of a spy type character too. So often, the bard is the social engineer and thus is the one with the tools to do the social charms and seduction to get through a social obstacle. When handled with maturity it works. The immature groups the bard turns into the horny player type you are tired of. I don't think all groups are doing that.
Best bard I ever played with was about as far away from amorous as can be-- his musical specialization was "flatulist." Not flautist, no. Flatulist. Look it up and imagine what his jigs and reels sounded like.
Historically, this was a real thing in Ireland and some other places (like Greece). Same thing with people who make armpit noises. There is a famous Old Irish or Middle Irish battlefield story, where there's a professional harper with fairly supernatural powers, and then a parallel comedy plot with a professional farter. I can't remember the name right now, but it's got some funny bits.
The Irish word for a professional farter was "braigetoir." They show up in the Tech Midchuarta list of professions. The sad thing is that this was actually lower class than a bard, and bards (as opposed to filidh, poets) could be either slave or free.
@@thesonofdormammu5475 Nope. We had no idea about that meme. Just random events leading up to stuff. I think we had a drunk lutheran cleric serenading an insect-princess under a window, all earth-people in that game were constantly a little drunk. We had a wizard with a magic carpet take a grizzled shopkeeper for a romantic ride.
I played some of the early Bards. The Strategic Review version was quite unbalanced (though not as bad as the Ninja). It was a little too good of a Thief, and the Charm/Lore abilities too effective. The 1E version is almost God-like, with a very broken hit dice progression; at least the character was very unlikely to have a high Constitution. I loved the Bard Handbook; the Kits are almost like new classes. I converted a White Dwarf Artificer to 2E using a custom Bard kit.
Yeah, Castles & Crusades in general is just a fun game. My friend gave me a copy of the Player's Handbook years (more than a decade, I think?) ago, and I immediately took a liking to it, as I was heavily involved in a few 3.X games at the time and C&C looked like a much easier, simpler, stripped-down 3E (no skills, no feats, etc.) but with a sensibility that was closer to the game I grew up with.
@@daddyrolleda1 it’s 1e with a 3e style mechanic, without all the blubber. It’s the game system Gary Gygax was using when he died and had even said that it was what he viewed as a “2nd Edition” in his mind.
Gygax had some bad ideas, and in my opnion, his Bard was one of them. As for the "amorous" stereotype, while there might be some basis to it in history, I think the main reason is just the growing influence of superficial meme culture in general as the demographics skew younger.
My explanation? Teenagers and young adults are horny, and Bards are exceptionally charming. I don't think there NEEDS to beat deeper explanation than that. We could dip a little deeper and suggest that the types of folks playing d&d might not have the best luck with the ladies, and that the charming bard could give them the sort of class fantasy of being a suave charmer that they can't achieve in real life. Maybe one or more particularly noteworthy individuals became legendary memes that spread among the community.
It's a very different take for sure. Gary was seeming to fall into a combination of wanting them to be warrior-poets (hence the Fighter abilities) and also old Welsh tales that referred to Bards as criminals (due to rivalries between different cultures, etc.).
It's hilarious that they'd say that a class was not official unless Gary wrote it, because otherwise it wouldn't balanced. But we all know from watching the videos that he borrowed and copied liberally from other creators!
He did indeed! I think it probably had more to do with trying to limit what could be considered "official" for playing at conventions/tournaments, but in his language, Gary indicates that much of the stuff he didn't create is "unbalanced" or plain unnecessary. He was very vocal in his dislike for the Anti-Paladin, for example.
Going into 5e people were surprised I flipped to liking Bards and Wizards. Bards are good, Wizards aren't a tedious choice with vancian casting anymore.
Tunnels & Trolls used mana points. In early editions it was based on the Con-equivalent of wizards, and later on a special magic attribute. We found that it still constrained wizards from constantly using magic while allowing them to be more reactive with magic. The magic points also replenish by the hour, so just by walking around the dungeon you can muster one more little zap.
I think it's kinda bullcrap that they're full casters with expertise and a subclass with extra attack. That's not master of none, that's master of all.
One quirk we found with 2e bards was that they gain xp from everything and have the xp progression of a thief. A wizard at the start, and level for level will have more magic but bards could race ahead in level fast. We had a level 5 bard easily overtake the poor level 3 wizard.
All the complete books repeat stuff from the PHB. They have to do that because otherwise, the book would not be complete. Yes, it's a waste of space and essentially filler but they all did that.
I just didn't remember the Fighter and Thief books doing that as much, but I might have missed it. I still liked them, though. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Complete (race) books repeated and defined racial abilities from other books, and collected all racial variants from settings up to then. In case you wanted to play a gully dwarf or a gold dwarf but didn't want to get that campaign book. They had a lot more space for culture and small sundries.
Your concern with the more amorous, critter interpretation of bards kinda comes off as old man yells at dnd edition. Opinions are like onions, mine stink too
I guess I can see that, and I didn't intend for it to. I did specifically say that if you enjoy playing a bard that way and your group is cool with it, then by all means have fun with it. It's not for me, but I'd never tell someone else *not* to play that, or that they were making a mistake by doing so. In this particular case, it was more about me being perplexed as to *why* and when that particular stereotype arose, as it seems ubiquitous now but it's not something I grew up with. I've been told that the Bard's Tale video games and Critical Roll (which I've not watched, so I wasn't aware) are potentially the catalysts for that kind of interpretation. Anyway, I'll try to adjust my language in the future so I don't come across as someone who is trying to tell others how to play the game.
You can have your preferences, everyone does! I sure wouldnt include adultish activities in a youth group game. I find horny bard stereotypes annoying, myself. Depends on the players, and table.
The first time I recall hearing of the horny bard stereotype is in the computer game “A Bard’s Tale”.
My very first rpg character was a 1st edition Bard. Worked him all the way to 23rd level.We used the Greyhawk campaign, he eventually retired after taking control of the Sea Thieves kingdom and sired my future characters until we left AD&D for Rolemaster and then on to my own game. Good memories. I remember reading that article as well!
That is quite a feat considering the requirements of the class! You are part of an elite club that played one! I created a Bard once for 1E but only as an NPC so I didn't have to roll for the stats and go through the process of leveling through two other classes.
Thank you for watching the video and sharing your history with the class! It's always fun for me to read about other peoples' experiences with stuff like this. Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1 Yeah, my DM had a very generous creation system. He had us roll up 6 sets of stats and take the best.
The Bard's Handbook in 2nd edition had kits that were very different from the other books. They did not tweak the existing class to match a theme. They were different classes, with different class features, combat abilities, thieving skills and spellcasting.
In that, they resembled the specialty priests from the Complete Priest's Handbook.
That's why they put there the true bard kit. It was the template for all those variant classes, with the basic array of bonus proficiencies and class features, for reference and comparison, but also to explain how to create your own bard kits.
Besides, I think there was a generic kit for all classes that was published in one of the first of those booklets: the adventurer kit. It basically represented the standard classes without any change.
Barbarian bard hybrid: lore of the wilderness and one small tribe. Strength dance. Herbalism. Bongos and bow and bone flute. Garrote wire. Intimidation skill. A curse hanging over him/her.
"use tuba while charming" or "use lute while charming" or "use piccolo flute while charming"...
In some Celtic stories/mythologies the bard was the role someone had before they became a Druid. The first step of being a Druid was to learn all the oral histories and tales. The bard focused on that, since telling these tales was practice and a valuable skill. Then the bard would learn the priestly responsibilities and become a Druid. Becoming a bard in itself took many years of study so apprentice bard was an occupation in itself.
IRL, the bardic level names in 1st edition were Irish filidh level names, which described exactly what year of filidh school you had finished, and hence what you had memorized in the way of information, tales, and poems. They exactly paralleled the schooling level names of Irish monks who went to the university-like schools for Scripture study.
Irish filidh were poets with a side order of Christian prophecy, and almost always were of poet family. (Same thing with historians, genealogists, etc.) They were always free, had the legal status of "man of art" along with smiths and physicians, had a retinue (horse, harper, and reciter/singer), and could memorize huge amounts of material.
Irish bards were "normal" musicians/singers/composers, without the ritual requirements of a filidh, but with lower legal status and pay. They could be slave or free. They had a different level list, which basically described their legal status.
In Ireland, the filidh had a special relationship with the lord or king that he served. He was the voice of the law and the people, or even of the land itself. (Because filidh had to memorize the names of every topographical feature in the entire area, plus their legends, myths, and historical associations.) The king's filidh had the right to sleep in the king's own bed, and to keep his eye on the king, and give all sorts of unasked advice. OTOH, the filidh also had the job of keeping the king's most important guests and family entertained with conversation, as well as telling tales verbatim and composing poems of praise, or making prophecies on occasion.
And that's in a literate Christian society, mind you.
Filidh composed poetry without writing it down, although they were very literate and did write down whole books of poetry. Memorization was kind of wound up with their mystical abilities, although all scholarly people in the Middle Ages did a ton of memorization. (The Ars Memoriae, which came down from Greco-Roman times, were a big thing. Illuminated manuscripts are actually memory aids, which is why you have funny pun-filled drawings in the margins.)
The satirist was a special kind of filidh that didn't serve any one lord, but who had such a savage form of poetry that it was supposed to be deployed only on really bad people. (A really good satirist could kill animals like rats by insulting them.) He had special protection from the laws that regulated insults and reputation. But even though people would treat a satirist with respect, out of fear of the consequences, he wasn't really liked much.
People from filidh families would often become priests, monks, or nuns, as well as following their traditional professions. Filidh were some of the first Christian converts of high status in Ireland, and thus this was a well-established career path. (And they already knew the art of memory from childhood, which made monk schools a lot easier.)
Irish monastic schools originally didn't teach the monks every day; they sent the student monks off every other day, to walk around and ask for dinner from charitable people in the neighborhood. Well, the same was true for filidh schools. One day, they'd be taught various stuff about composition or would memorize a tale or poem; and the teachers would feed the students. The next day, the students would scatter out to the neighborhood, and perform the duties of a visiting filidh for their kind and well-to-do hosts, who would feed them.
Filidh schools were not grouped close to the monastic schools, though, because obviously there's only so much charity in a neighborhood, even if you provide entertainment and conversation.
Anyway... the thief thing is anti-filidh, because Irish and Welsh poets were guardians of the law. (And used lawyer-like arguments sometimes.)
My first dnd character ended up able to qualify for bard. I played that character for years. Jethro Tull retired at 13th or 14th level.
I had that dragon mag with the new bard "not so hard" class. It was cool. I wanted to play one of those but it never happened
You sort of answered your own question as to why bards are seen as amorous, but there's some more historical context, too. There's a significant difference between bards in pre-literate societies and those in post literate societies. In societies that are still reliant on oral tradition, I can see a bard being a member of the priest class. First edition had that right in many ways. They would be responsible for things like genealogy and the pedigree of important families. In many cases they would also be recorders of traditions and sometimes law. These are critical tasks--bards are one of the guardians of what binds people together in civil society. Episode 3 of Michael Wood's documentary In Search of the Trojan War is titled "The Singer of Tales," and it explores the oral tradition in a very interesting way.
In literate civilizations, the bard losses much of it's priestly influences. While they could still be critical to things like PR, they are not the protectors of civil norms like they would be in civilizations that are dependent on oral traditions. Long charts and family trees of royalty and nobility are written down and kept in temples or churches. Histories are kept on scrolls and in books and not dependent on the bard for his retelling of epic tales.
This is when you have the troubadour poets who spread romances in the 11th and 12th centuries to consider, who were quite popular among noble women in the high middle ages because of the tales of courtly love they were famous for. "They would come to town and charm your wives and daughters." You also have to consider that these were people who were dependent on noble patronage, and that position of power could be taken advantage of. Just consider that in later years, opera divas were often mistresses to nobles. Actresses of given troupes would use their charms to secure patronage. Remember, acting for instance was considered an unclean profession, alongside prostitutes. HBO's Rome drove this point home. So there's that.
And then there's the point you also touched on. These were the rock stars of their age, and they lived up to the hilt. Just like Rock stars in our day and age. You see this in the pulp fiction magazines that inspired D&D, like Conan and the Lankhmar stories. Fafrhd used music to charm women. He and the Mouser were living a short and merry lives.
That's where the trope comes from. It depends on how adult the game your running is. Is it Willow, or is it 13th Warrior, or is it Game of Thrones? Everyone at my table is over 50, so we like imaging we are still in our 20s when we play, where we are all young and still sexy---because that never lasts in the real world.
Nicely said
@@YouTellemFrosk Thanks. This is something I've given some amount of thought to. While my main setting is a literate renaissance society, where 2nd edition bards would be the norm---on the very fringes of settled lands, I have tribes that are more Norse/Anglo-Saxon in character, who are dependent on oral tradition. This is where I make bards a sub-class of priest--more in line with the flavor of the 1st Ed. bards.
While there were a lot of very cool concepts within it, the 1st edition bard was a character class that was too much of a pain to play--plus when the rest of your party is 9th and 10th level and near ready to retire, your bard is only 1st or 2nd, and yet has the hit points of an 8th level fighter...??? What level adventuring party does he/she need to run with?
As game designers, Gary Gygax and Dave Arenson were authentic geniuses, but not everything they did worked flawlessly. And some of Gary's rules in particular could lack nuance.
I want drunken student-monks picking fights on the road too. You can play that sort of people in Aquelarre.
Speak for yourself- I’m 53 and still sexy. Well fitting clothes and the gym. ;)
@@andrewlustfield6079I’m not so sure about your second paragraph. An old friend of mine is going to join our campaign for a few sessions so I gave him 60,001xp to make a character with, thinking he’d want to play a 7th level MU. Instead, he went for 5/5/6 bard. We run btb 1e, so with the weakness of the Identity spell, the Legend Lore ability alone will be pretty powerful. Plus Charm. 5d10 plus 5d6 hp isn’t bad either.
Granted, a 5/6 MU/illusionist would be pretty strong too!
Dang your story towards the end was hilarious. A Bard taking advantage of a person who no one understands and acts as their interpreter is a great story beat
I've been wanting to make a bard as warrior-skald like Snorri ver Snaggasson for a while: gets along well with anyone, tells stories that immerse everyone, make impassioned speeches that inspire the best from allies, and dramatically capable in melee combat. And all without guile or manipulation.
They make it hard, though.
High charisma Dexterity warrior with one level in sage or bard?
I really appreciate the deep dives you do for this game. The Bard in particular was my first class and I have always enjoyed the fascinating history of its origin, inclusion, and evolution in D&D.
The cool thing about the Meistersinger was it allowed you to multiclass with Ranger. So you could have 6/8 of the Rogue skills without being a Rouge, cast both Arcane and Divine spells without being a Priest or Mage, and fight pretty good without being a Warrior. It was the ultimate Jack of all Trades option. With my old 2E Meistersinger/Ranger I could fill in for any other class as an understudy. Which was much more noteworthy and harder to do in that edition.
First of all, please allow me to express my deep appreciation for you and your channel! I'm an avid gaming historian, and have looked in the past for people doing more about it with little success, so was delighted to find my way here!
I started playing in '83, when I was 11, with Red Box Basic (though like you, we mistakenly mixed it with AD&D in the beginning!), and have been primarily a GM, running a variety of systems and genres over the years.
I must say however, in response to this video in particular, that while you may have been fortunate enough to have not encountered it, the "lascivious bard " trope FAR predates 3e. I'm my experience, it sprang from the fact that there were many players who were hormonal teenage boys, and the bard was a Cha high character, with a charm ability. Let your imagination run wild. They certainly did. 😜
Not that it's something that ever played long in my games, even back in the day. I always took things too seriously for that. Gaming is a big part of my life, and my identity. I'm glad I have players who look for the same kind of narratives and degree of character development I am in the games I run!
The bard really occupies such a weird space in D&D. It's always been seen as that sort of jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. My favorite version of a bard I ever played was in 4e I played a bard with a wand as a conductor with a baton, and I took a lot of powers that moved people around. So I was this little gnome with big Beethoven hair conducting the battlefield with an extremely severe and serious look on his face. Everyone thought it was a riot because it went against that lascivious bard stereotype, which even in 4e was starting to become heavily entrenched.
What a fun concept that is! I can totally picture your PC in my head! That does sound like it would've been a lot of fun.
It's very telling that bards used to have tendencies for lawful alignment "since they depend on custom and culture to make their living" and in 3rd edition they can't be lawful to the point when "a bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard".
From nature-loving, truthful, scholarly divine-spellcasters to city-loving, deceitful, scoundrelly arcane-spellcasters.
It's interesting like bards is the only d&d class that throughout editions have changed 180. Even barbarian haven't changed that drastically.
Don't forget the Appalachia based literary hero John the Balladeer/ Silver John who was more or less a bard but without the "Amorousness".
The original Bard was a proud warrior poet. The later Bard was a sad fighting knock off thief with some spells. Let them have being flirty.
I love the videos about the old classes.
I used the Judges Guild and they used all of the old classes that appeared in Dragon and White Dwarf magazine. The Bard and Houri, Alchemist and Sage and others were used because that was what we had back then. But in order to use them you had to have a copy of those magazines with the character class in it.
Really appreciated your deep dive into the history of the bard across all D&D editions. Your point about the modern portrayal of bards as promiscuous and aloof characters, rather than the knowledgeable historians, warrior poets, and performers they're rooted in, really struck a chord with me. It's crucial to remember that in times when literacy was rare, history was often preserved and passed on through stories and songs, with information spreading through the travels of such individuals. A prime example that embodies what bards could truly represent is Tom Merrilin from Wheel of Time-a master of courtly intrigue, a well-traveled keeper of lore, a performer, and even a spy. This multifaceted approach is exactly how I love portraying my bards; it's a class that offers so much depth and versatility. Your video has sparked further appreciation for what bards can bring to the table, beyond the stereotypes.
That's a huge compliment, and I'm really glad you got something out of it. That was really my intent for this video, to help folks see bards in a different way, as I think they sometimes have a bad reputation due to the stereotypes.
YESSSSS!!!! I was just thinking about Bards yesterday, and recently was searching and re-reading the Bard's Handbook (which is amazing IMO) and started enjoying the class more and more
The 2nd edition books were my main form of D&D growing up (after starting with mentzer red box). I've always loved the art of the PHB and DMG and found it really evocative of the kinda fantasy I associate with dnd. That picture on the bard page has always made me think of strange, romantic legends. The sleeping / cursed warrior woman seems like a much cooler Sleeping Beauty. And it suggested to me that bard aren't just grubbing in treasure chests or fighting monsters, they're exploring mysteries and dealing with history and legends.
I never knew it was from a previous module! Thanks for another great video b
I really appreciate you watching and commenting! Thank you so much!
Yes! That illustration by Easley is Drelzna, Iggwilv's (aka Tasha's) daughter, and is a Fighter Vampire!
Good one Dad!
The bard was always an enigma, and no I never played one. Chainmail has a troop type in it called the Superhero, and I have to wonder if maybe that is where the Bard comes from. AD&D's answer to the Superhero.
Ha! I'd never thought of that! I just recently did a video in which I talked about level titles and how Chainmail had troop types of "Hero" (the equivalent of "four figures") and "Superhero" (twice as strong as a Hero), and then how in D&D, you see that the Level Title for a 4th Level Fighter is "Hero" and for an 8th Level Fighter is "Superhero."
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 I've never fully figured out Chainmail. Does that mean a hero takes four hits, when the standard for normal humanoids is one? Can a hero wallop four humanoid enemies?
A quirk we noticed with the 2e bard is their xp. AD&D 2e started giving class-specific xp (more or less optionally), fighters got more xp for defeating foes, wizards and clerics got xp for spells and scrolls, thieves were the only ones who still got xp for pure gold. As they were good at a bit of everything (half thief skills, decent THAC0, could use a few weapons) they also got a bit of xp for everything.
With the xp progression of a rogue, they shot far ahead. Our level 5 bard was easily overtake the level 3 wizard in spell power. The bard could Enlarge people bigger than the wizard, more times per day and survive a bar fight or a stray dog much better.
28:05 the art here kind of looks like Dave Cockrum.
I can see that! It's actually by Terry Dyksra. Terry and Valerie Valusek did all the interior art for the book (at least, the pieces that hadn't been previously published in other supplements).
Looking at Dykstra's art now and I can see a lot of Cockrum in his art, between the thick lines, the hard shadows, the facial hair and the fondness for chonky monsters.
I remember when A Bard's Tale came out in 2004 for the Xbox and PS2. That's my reference point in time when the amorous bard was cemented as the baseline. I thought that was a weird take at the time. Reviewers also pointed that out, probably more because the original game's humor didn't skew so lasciviously.
A few people have mentioned that game, but I never played it (my video game knowledge is woefully lacking) so it never occurred to me to check that out as a possible source of the stereotype. Thanks for sharing!
Great video. One of my (few) claims to fame from my teen years in AD&D was that I had a Bard rise from lvl 1(for) to Bard 23.
As far as the horny bard thing, I know this wasn't the first time it happened, but I think the preponderance of that stereotype in the last 5 years or so is largely because of the popularity of Critical Role. In their first campaign, Sam Reigel played the bard Scanlan who was absolutely this stereotype, and since Sam is a great improv actor and player, he was at that time the most popular player on the show.
Another great video! The bard is an interesting class that most newer players don’t really understand. The 1st Ed Bards were for higher level play. From my experience, very few players were interested in playing them. I mainly encountered them as NPCs. I did have one friend who liked to play them, but it took so long to build one we didn’t play those characters long after he hit a couple levels on bard.
I was not impressed with the 2E bard. The complete Bards Handbook made them interesting. I had a friend who created his own kit using that book. He called it the condottiere. It was sort of a combination of the Blade and the Skald. He did a great job with roll playing it. He played the PC like Erol Flynn, kind of an over the top flashy swordsman with a quip for every situation. Reminded me of the old Zorro movies. That’s how I’ve pictured bards ever since.
To me 3.5E Bards came closest to that build my friend created. They were fun to play and had enough unique abilities to play their own role in a party.
I have not played a 4E Bard or played with one in a game. It might be because I didn’t play 4E much. I’d like to see someone play one. If you know of a UA-cam or Twitch channel which has one let me know. Not a big fan of 4E but it does have some interesting mechanics.
I’ve played a couple of 5e bards and most parties I’ve DMed for has had a bard PC.i do think the 5E bard is a good class. I’m particularly fond of the Valor bard. I think it captures that style I like. Although the Whisper College bard from Xanathar’s has a good spy vibe. I have enjoyed playing a Glamour bard though too. I played one in a Ravenloft campaign, he was mainly comic relief and support for my Daughters character. She played a Fighter Battle Master built as a Body Guard theme. She was kind of my straight man to my Self-centered legend in my own mind Musician.
Loved your anecdotes on the barbarian. That’s sounds like it was a lot of fun. I would have loved that game.
It took me a bit to come back and comment on this one. I really enjoyed it. Looking forward to your next video!
The best bard I had at a table was a skald in EZd6. He was just so happy to be included with the party on the adventure…and tried to chronicle events afterward.
Surprised there was no mention of my namesake in the DnD rules. Taliesin could turn around armies with a clever quip. Not into any whisky that isn't Scotch but love Marvin Gaye. Keep doing what you're doing mate!
I can't believe I never thought of the rockstars of that time being some of the original inspiration for the first D&D bards. I always assumed they were purely historical and literary inspirations, but in the case of the modern lecherous bard trope, it makes sense. They do make great inspirations for player characters or NPCs. But personally, I'd go more with a whimsical folk singer like Donovan or Nick Drake if I were to play a bard based off a popular musician. While Jim Morrison would make a good bard, I see him more as a shaman/druid type character leading a cult of Lizardmen!
Lastly, fantastic "listening to" record at the end! What's Going On is definitely one of those albums you can listen to from start to finish without skipping a single track. Every song flows beautifully into the next, working best when listened to as a complete work.
Another wonderful video!
Wow, I didn't think there was this much history. thank you for the in-depth video. I'm not exactly sitting here watching it minute by minute but I have it on in the background as I'm doing stuff.
There's also the bard in the green Celts book, where it's a Priest class instead of Rogue, no armor, no thief skills, limited priest sphere access...
Yes, indeed! I had forgotten about that one. Thanks for the reminder!
And, thank you for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel. Cheers!
The bard is one of my favorite classes. This should be a great video.
I'm most familiar with the 2nd edition Bard and the way I justified it in-world was to say that they were a network of agents (hence the thief skills) masquerading as minstrels (who are welcome in any setting) that would use entertainment to pass on both moral content to the populace and coded messages to each other. They eventually managed to cast some arcade spells by using the mnemonics of sung storytelling. Their political objective was maintaining a balance-of-power in which all nations stayed small. I gave a nod to their 1st edition connection with Druids by saying they shared in both that objective and a common cultural origin (even if they now were worldwide).
A friend played a bard in my last campaign with an interesting twist on the current trend. She was surprisingly reserved, seeing herself as a match-maker more than a bed-hopper. :)
Incidentally, someone like Marvin Gaye exemplifies both the political and seductive aspects of a Bard - such a character can both move a crowd to feel a common cause _and_ seduce a particular member of that crowd. To reduce that role to a one-note lothario is rather limiting.
Goelz iteration was my preference, it was simple, had decent balance, and was more in line with regular AD&D classes.
Enjoy the series extremely.
Please cover the Conan 3.5 RPG as a supplement for the Barbarian Class video.
45:45~Bards in Comics
· Order of the Stick
· Webcomic by Fredrick Andersen
I loved Order of the Stick back in the day. I used to read it all the time during my lunch hour at my office, as I didn't have a computer at home back then. Great stuff!
I play either 5e or BECMI. I wanted a bard in BECMI and I only have the RC so I used the non-combat skills and added them to the classes that do exist. The magic-user, thief, and elf I think would make a good bard in this way. I change their spell casting ability from intelligence to charisma. Change Read Magic to Read Music. And change the spell book to a song book.
While I was listening to this video I was drinking an Old Fashioned that I made using 1 oz J Riegers Bourbon and 1 oz Gran Marnier. Sweetened with blue agave and some bitters.
Outstanding Content once again. Thank You for the great content and research into the history of the game.
I really appreciate that compliment! Thank you so much!
Thanks for the video, this was super interesting. I love that DCC convention story! What a fun game that must've been.
P.S. Beekeeper is the best background.
I'm not a huge fan of 5e, but I love how competent bards are there. They were almost a bit of a laughing stock in 3.PF, to the point where most comics and such make them out to be useless, but in 5e they're powerhouses. Really lets you lean into the idea of the warrior-poet or musician.
That Rye sounds nice. I drink more bourbon but I do prefer a nice rye from time to time.
I like both... it just depends on my mood and whether I'm sipping it neat or having a cocktail. For a Manhattan, I prefer Rye. For an Old Fashioned Whiskey Cocktail, a Paper Plane, or a Whiskey Sour, I usually default to Bourbon.
So many things to comment on in this one...
1. The lascivious minstrel has been a stock trope in western lit quite a long time. Generally from the European medieval era forward traveling performers and other nomadic types (the Romani and the Travelers in particular) were treated with a high degree of suspicion due to being outsiders in the local social hierarchy with no ready means of accountability if they engaged in that type of frivolous behavior with a local girl. Because of the cursory similarities from within a modern perspective, bards and other similar professions have been painted with the same broad brush including in plenty of fantasy literature the last hundred years or so.
2. I always quite liked the Bard class ending up with Druid spells, considering the period when AD&D was being published also saw a fairly significant rise in OBOD members and renewed interest in Druidism among the general public.
3. Funny aside here since Roger E Moore got mentioned, he and I used to run in the same fandom circles online around 15 years ago. Really solid guy from what few direct interactions I ever had with him, though by that point wanted nothing to do with the role playing hobby due to burnout.
4. My personal theory for the Complete Bard having all the redundant info like it did is that TSR created the book leaving it open for players/GMs to engage in syncretic incorporation as had long been the habit, which would also sell more copies of the book.
5. I was watching this with my friend who surprisingly had no idea about DCC and had to try and explain to him on the fly how the funnel format works.
6. I feel with you on loving a good rye whiskey. As much a bourbon has been the in thing for whiskey lately, I've always found it a bit too sweet for my palate. Rye and Irish are my go-tos, and Scotch for rare special occasions.
7. Marvin Gaye si an exceptional choice for listening to while contemplating the Bard class I'd say.
In Birthright, bards are the class least suited to run a realm. The bardic colleges don't like their members to be tied too hard to the rulers, and becoming one is an automatic resignation from a bard career.
Bards have the power to sweep in at any damn moment across the region, join rulers on their adventures and then spread the word. They're the ones who will probably visit the most different courts.
That Marvin Gaye album is a stone cold classic! Regarding bards I had very little interest in them until I watched this video. Now I want to play as one! Please keep up the long form videos. I love all the info. (Regarding horny bards proliferating… I blame critical roll…)
This is a huge compliment! I am always thrilled when someone says I inspired them to look at the game or a particular concept in a new light. Thanks! And yes, thanks for watching through to the album portion! It's such a great album!
I completely forgot about Critical Roll, as I've never watched it, but a few folks mentioned that connection and I think you're probably right that it at least cemented the concept in peoples' minds.
Thanks again!
@@daddyrolleda1 I watched the first few episodes of the cartoon and it's very clear how the bard in that show is. I didn't find it worth finishing, and I've never watched the web series the cartoon was based on.
Complete Bard was one of the most used and well loved book back in our 2e days. It was a popular class. And I have to say I'm shocked at how much stuff actually does get rehashed for filler.
Wish I had found out about dragon 56 back in the day. I allowed the bard as the exception to humans multiclassing, treating A BARD as a multi class fighter/thief/druid but at 5000+xp per level (and restrictions), it was not a popular choice. I also played I.C.E middle earth role playing game in the 80's- 90's, one of its prime character class was a bard; who was a jack of all trades and the only one specialising in languages. Great to play because you got so many options. Then we come to ORKY McORKFACE, my halforc bard whose specialist instrument was the Highland Bagpipes, (my only pathfinder character) very entertaining (for me). Also you may remember or have access to the old (1984) TV series "Robin the hooded man", one of the stories in one of the series featured Alan A Dale, which was great because (I copy and paste here)- "Alan a Dale is a lovesick and a rather daft minstrel who is on his way to Nottingham to kill the Sheriff. An incredulous Robin wants to know why". A very different twist on the romancer theme.
Going on again;... because of the interesting and thought provoking content; as usual.
MERP is a game closer to Tolkien's Bilbo. Every PC we had knew at least 2-3 languages and bards knew even more. I remember that MERP bards could do some light spellcasting as well. Ours shot a bow and managed a few spells a day.
King David ben Jessi of the tribe of Judah - historical Bard. He did make mistakes of the amorous kind, which led to such tragedies as bretrayal and murder and eventual civil war against his son Absalom, whom David refused to kill, as the figurehead of the opposing force.
Great source for a campaign around a bard taken seriously instead of for innuendo jokes.
Bard was always my favourite Class. Trouble was, because I spent so much time DM'ing I could never play one, because every time I played it would be with a new character that started out at first level, and the game would only last a few weeks, meaning I struggled to even get to the Thief stage.
One of my favourite changes in 2E was Bard being a class in its own right and starting at level 1!
In my current 2E game, I keep dropping in Bard NPCs just in case the party decide to recruit one of them, so I can at least pretend to play one.
I have to say that I had no problem with the Complete Book of Bards covering the basic Bard rules from the PHB. The the Complete Books always annoyed me a bit because for the most part they DIDN'T include the PHB archetype. "The Complete Book..." should have the basic class to qualify as being "Complete".
It allows the player to have THAT book at the table, rather than that book AND The PHB, and the PHB can just be a general refernece guide for spells etc.
I think the modern Bard portrayed as Horny Serial Shagger is just a flat, generic (and a llittle bit lazy) way to use Charisma without needing to be particularly creative.
Summon and dispel rats / dispel children should be a natural ability 😂
I never once got to use the bard in 1e. I think I will fix this one day soon, this will be a great class to play I’m sure
You'd better use some of those alternative ability score generation tables from Unearthed Arcana and then set aside a few years to play as a Fighter and then Thief before you can be a Bard! Good luck! 😄
In 5e I had a Bard inspired by the French opera singer and duelist Julie D'Aubigny, but unfortunately the game fizzled out after a few sessions.
That sounds like a lot of fun!
I would love a video on the history of gnomes!
Oh, interesting! I will add it to the list of potential future video topics. Thanks!
Me too! In particular I'd be interested to hear about pre-D&D influences leading to D&D's gnome.
yes! I've been wanting to play a bard inspired by The Minstrel Boy for a long time
You are the only one so far who has commented on that poem I mentioned! Thank you! I think it sounds like a fun character idea and if you do play one, make sure to come back and chat about it in the comments. Cheers!
One thing I've always kind of wondered about that 1st edition AD&D bard - in normal dual-classing rules you can use all the skills and abilities of your first class once your second class exceeds the level of the first, which includes weapons and armor. So, can bards also then use their fighter and thief weapon skills once their bard level gets high enough? I know bard isn't a normal dual-class scenario, and the list of usable weapons would tend to suggest no, but there's definitely an argument to say yes. They do get to retain their fighter THAC0 and thiefly skills, after all, but they get to use those starting right away and don't have to wait to level up their bard level, so it's clearly an exception to dual-classing rules. The rules for bard in 1st edition are such a mess. As DM, should you ever have a player qualify for it and want to play it, you'll have to come up with a ton of house-rules for the class given how many question marks still surround it.
I've always read it as though normal dual class rules still apply to the Bard, so once his thief abilities exceed his fighter abilities, he gains the ability to use both freely, even though it's probably at that moment they actually revert back to first level and begin as a bard. The problem is that at that point who do they go adventuring with? Let's say, for argument sake, that the player advances their character to an 8th level fighter to start with. Equally, lets say they have a 16 con, which isn't unreasonable. If you figure 5.5 rolls on every level, you have 60 HP first level thief. Then the character needs to advance to 9th level thief, which following dual class rules, would add another 48 HP on straight average rolls. You now have a 108 HP 1st level bard. Now, once they are a first level bard, the writing is very clear, they may use their fighter and thief skills freely as a first level bard.
So now does the character stay with their adventuring party? Because the rest of the party isn't going to want to take breaks in mid-adventure for the bard character to return to town to train so he or she can advance a level. The rest of the party is needing 100,000-200,000+ experience to advance in level. Staying with their comrades of many levels will mean the bard essentially sacrifices the experience points that exceed the maximum experience points for their next level. Or do you wave the training rules and give the bard the ability to essentially skip levels? If you go this route, what's the point of having all those intervening levels? In a 1st-3rd level dungeon the bard will completely over power their opponents because, yes, they are are a first level bard, but they are also fighting as an 8th level fighter and preforming thief checks at 9th level ability. The way it is written is one of those cases, like the cavalier and barbarian, where Gary started with a really cool concept, but the implementation is just unworkable.
In my own campaign, I make the bard from pre-literate cultures a subclass of priests. They have limited access to some thieving skills---basically everything except pick pockets and read languages because they are from a pre literate society--reading languages would be foreign to them. I also don't allow bards to back stab--that just doesn't seem to fit with the warrior poet. I use the fighter combat tables, but they are not allowed to weapon specialize, because of the dedicated focus that actually takes. At 7th level, they are able to start making multiple attacks a round as per the fighter in the PHB--7-12 attacking 3/2, and at 13+ 2/1. But they do not get exceptional strength. I give them a priest's D:8 hit die. Charm percentages and legend lore abilities are as written in the PHB. Bards from pre literate cultures also have profound social importance in their home cultures and would be treated as specialist priests. They do get additional languages--spoken only though. (And when you really think about it--they would be lawful in regards to their home laws and customs--for example, paying wergild without being asked when it's appropriate.)
Super interesting as always
Loved the stories in the end too! More of those!
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that!
Love this history! The Kronog thing, I think I had to be there
Did I like the video? CRONOG.
"You spoony bard!"
Great video, BTW Costco has a really good deal on High West whiskey.
Thank you so much! I always forget about buying alcohol at Costco! I *think* we have a membership but we never go as it is quite far from us and the parking is horrendous. Glad you enjoyed the video, and thank you for watching and commenting!
The bard is a performer, has a high Charisma, wanders from town to town, I think these all lend themselves toward the lascivious lifestyle trope. Then it gets reinforced by the Scanlan and Dandelion characters of (what i guess is now) pop culture.
Great story at the end
Thank you for watching through to the end! I really appreciate it. And I'm glad you enjoyed that story. It's one of my favorite gaming stories. Cheers!
I've loved the idea of the bard since 1st edition because of Alan-a-dale from Robin Hood. I also really dislike the "horny bard" stereotype. My bard in Pathfinder was based on Jem and the Holograms; she used illusion magic for special effects and costume changes while inspiring the party.
That's a really fun bard concept (Jem and the Holograms)! Very cool! Thank you for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it.
"so I'm not just a bunch of hands showing a bunch of books." Oh no, daddy's a Merilith
I’m a Utahn and I am definitely proud that High West is out there and they are great. But I favorite offering from our state is the Triple oaked bourbon from Alpine distillery. They are from the same city and definitely suggest you give it a try.
Nice, a Thomas Moore quote!
Hear hear! I totally agree. I hate the modern take on bards.
I am making a reworked edition of D&D 3.5/Pathfinder inspired by classic D&D/AD&D 2nd ed.
My take on the bard is a mix of AD&D and the old bard’s tale computer games (the 80’s game not the modern consol game) 😊
I have a severe lack of knowledge about video games so I never even thought of checking out Bard's Tale, but a few people have mentioned it in the comments. A 3.5/PF1E bard with elements/inspiration from 2E sounds great!
@@daddyrolleda1 I am doing YT videos on my whole D&D Rework on a channel called @TheGrandfathersCave . This week I oploaded the Cleric and the Scoundrel classes, next week it will be Warriors & Wizards, and the week after that I will have the Barbarian and the Bard. I had been stuck for a while on the barbarian, but your video on the history of the barbarian was really good at bringing me back on track. Thanks! 😉
Oh, geez, I'd forgot how impossible it was to make out the writing in 3rd Edition, because there was all that extraneous marking on the pages. Not as bad as Shadowrun, but pretty bad.
Yeah, I hadn't really noticed it at the time, but as I look back on them now, it is a little difficult to read, and also the page layout in 3E was much more "sparse" than even in 3.5.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
I totally agree with your opinion of the "bards are always horny" trope. But as you say, if everyone at the table enjoys it, do whatever you want. It's just not to my taste. This is partly what session zeros are for. Do we want a dark and gritty game or one filled with silly jokes?
Exactly! It is important to discuss that stuff up front so everyone is aligned as to the type of game being played.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
Have you considered speaking or working with game designed David J Propoketz? He's done a ton of posts on the history of DnD, might be a boon to your research.
Can't wait for the next video on realm management?
There were cases of marching band members. That would accompany soldiers in the field. The stories of bards blaring their songs in a dungeon for a magical benefit. Which, in turn lets all the residence in said dungeon know of their whereabouts. Music from the underground automatically starts a mosh pit. Its no different here.
Ah, the Bard, perhaps the least understood class by both newbs and experienced players. A bard can be very fun, it just helps if one sees the possibilities.
I think they can be quite a fun class, but I've been utterly mystified over the past few years at their description as "horny" and seeing memes on social media saying, "If your PC isn't horny, are they even a Bard?" kind of thing, which I just don't get. That's one way to play a Bard, sure. But it's one of like more than a hundred ways to approach it!
@@daddyrolleda1 I think part of the problem with people's perception of the Bard class is based on what they think a bard would be in our current world. 50% of the time a new player will immediately think rock star, instead of the old trubladoors (spelling?) and travelling story tellers. I once played a bard in a barbarian adventuring company and justified doing so by claiming my character is a wannabe lore master (storyteller) for the tribe.
I had been thinking of asking for this: the history of the bard class is a weird one and I wanted to understand it better. Historical bards were kind of replaced by clerics and it seems like in the game they morphed from oral clerics into troubadours with stage magic come real.
Several Order of the Stick characters were written against type (especially the fighter) and I don't see how the bard being written as not having two brain cells to rub together led into the amorous bard trope of today...
One type of definitely not fantasy "bard" is the rockerboy from Cyberpunk 2013/2020. With the newfangled computer game being out, I think people are more familiar with Johnny Silverhand. Rockerboys are street poets and iconoclasts and stylemakers. From crappy little garage bands to the people playing on major stations and performing for entire stadiums.
All jobs in that game are defined by a handful of skills, and one class-unique skill. Rockerboys get to pick skills relevant to music production, performance, style and smooth-talking people. Their unique skill Charismatic Leadership swayed crowds. Specifically crowds, not specific individuals. A rockerboy can stand up and speak to a crowd to calm it, rile it up, direct it that moment.
"Eurotour" was a campaign in the European Economic Community where you babysit a rockerboy on a tour through the eurotheater. You are security goons, roadies, comp musicians, PR shills and others.
Kronog
I cannot stop laughing!
Thank you very much for watching that far in the video. I really appreciate it.
Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1Kronog
😄
@@daddyrolleda1 Kronog says he approves of whiskey and Inner City Blues.
Any proper knight needs a bard henchman.
I think the reason why bards can get saddled with being the seducer in the party is because roleplaying games have social interactions and charming or seducing can be a viable solution. The bard is social, has powers that affect emotions and feelings towards them. They have the highest Charisma in the party. They have the skills of a spy type character too. So often, the bard is the social engineer and thus is the one with the tools to do the social charms and seduction to get through a social obstacle. When handled with maturity it works. The immature groups the bard turns into the horny player type you are tired of. I don't think all groups are doing that.
Best bard I ever played with was about as far away from amorous as can be-- his musical specialization was "flatulist." Not flautist, no. Flatulist. Look it up and imagine what his jigs and reels sounded like.
Historically, this was a real thing in Ireland and some other places (like Greece). Same thing with people who make armpit noises.
There is a famous Old Irish or Middle Irish battlefield story, where there's a professional harper with fairly supernatural powers, and then a parallel comedy plot with a professional farter. I can't remember the name right now, but it's got some funny bits.
The Irish word for a professional farter was "braigetoir." They show up in the Tech Midchuarta list of professions. The sad thing is that this was actually lower class than a bard, and bards (as opposed to filidh, poets) could be either slave or free.
The most "amorous" classes over our games have been clerics and magic-users for some reason. It is not a class ability.
Is your group big on Russian history? Maybe Rasputin has influenced your games 🙂
@@thesonofdormammu5475Ah yes, Russia's greatest love machine.
@@Syndicate_01😂
@@thesonofdormammu5475 Nope. We had no idea about that meme. Just random events leading up to stuff. I think we had a drunk lutheran cleric serenading an insect-princess under a window, all earth-people in that game were constantly a little drunk. We had a wizard with a magic carpet take a grizzled shopkeeper for a romantic ride.
@@SusCalvin Random stuff like that during game sessions make the best experiences 🙂
I played some of the early Bards. The Strategic Review version was quite unbalanced (though not as bad as the Ninja). It was a little too good of a Thief, and the Charm/Lore abilities too effective. The 1E version is almost God-like, with a very broken hit dice progression; at least the character was very unlikely to have a high Constitution. I loved the Bard Handbook; the Kits are almost like new classes. I converted a White Dwarf Artificer to 2E using a custom Bard kit.
The best version of the Bard is in Castles & Crusades.
Yeah, Castles & Crusades in general is just a fun game. My friend gave me a copy of the Player's Handbook years (more than a decade, I think?) ago, and I immediately took a liking to it, as I was heavily involved in a few 3.X games at the time and C&C looked like a much easier, simpler, stripped-down 3E (no skills, no feats, etc.) but with a sensibility that was closer to the game I grew up with.
@@daddyrolleda1 it’s 1e with a 3e style mechanic, without all the blubber. It’s the game system Gary Gygax was using when he died and had even said that it was what he viewed as a “2nd Edition” in his mind.
there are jester hombrew claasses
Gygax had some bad ideas, and in my opnion, his Bard was one of them. As for the "amorous" stereotype, while there might be some basis to it in history, I think the main reason is just the growing influence of superficial meme culture in general as the demographics skew younger.
The concept had a lot of merit. The implementation was unworkable.
My explanation? Teenagers and young adults are horny, and Bards are exceptionally charming. I don't think there NEEDS to beat deeper explanation than that.
We could dip a little deeper and suggest that the types of folks playing d&d might not have the best luck with the ladies, and that the charming bard could give them the sort of class fantasy of being a suave charmer that they can't achieve in real life. Maybe one or more particularly noteworthy individuals became legendary memes that spread among the community.
Sooo... basically Rod Stewart 🎉
Mmm. Nogchron.
Kronog!
@@daddyrolleda1 Nogkro? ;p
The AD&D bard made no sense to me, as the bards I imagined from literature and legends didn't spend years preparing as fighters and thieves.
It's a very different take for sure. Gary was seeming to fall into a combination of wanting them to be warrior-poets (hence the Fighter abilities) and also old Welsh tales that referred to Bards as criminals (due to rivalries between different cultures, etc.).
It's hilarious that they'd say that a class was not official unless Gary wrote it, because otherwise it wouldn't balanced. But we all know from watching the videos that he borrowed and copied liberally from other creators!
He did indeed! I think it probably had more to do with trying to limit what could be considered "official" for playing at conventions/tournaments, but in his language, Gary indicates that much of the stuff he didn't create is "unbalanced" or plain unnecessary. He was very vocal in his dislike for the Anti-Paladin, for example.
Going into 5e people were surprised I flipped to liking Bards and Wizards. Bards are good, Wizards aren't a tedious choice with vancian casting anymore.
Tunnels & Trolls used mana points. In early editions it was based on the Con-equivalent of wizards, and later on a special magic attribute. We found that it still constrained wizards from constantly using magic while allowing them to be more reactive with magic. The magic points also replenish by the hour, so just by walking around the dungeon you can muster one more little zap.
I think it's kinda bullcrap that they're full casters with expertise and a subclass with extra attack. That's not master of none, that's master of all.
One quirk we found with 2e bards was that they gain xp from everything and have the xp progression of a thief. A wizard at the start, and level for level will have more magic but bards could race ahead in level fast. We had a level 5 bard easily overtake the poor level 3 wizard.
All the complete books repeat stuff from the PHB. They have to do that because otherwise, the book would not be complete. Yes, it's a waste of space and essentially filler but they all did that.
I just didn't remember the Fighter and Thief books doing that as much, but I might have missed it. I still liked them, though. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Complete (race) books repeated and defined racial abilities from other books, and collected all racial variants from settings up to then. In case you wanted to play a gully dwarf or a gold dwarf but didn't want to get that campaign book. They had a lot more space for culture and small sundries.
Your concern with the more amorous, critter interpretation of bards kinda comes off as old man yells at dnd edition. Opinions are like onions, mine stink too
I guess I can see that, and I didn't intend for it to. I did specifically say that if you enjoy playing a bard that way and your group is cool with it, then by all means have fun with it. It's not for me, but I'd never tell someone else *not* to play that, or that they were making a mistake by doing so.
In this particular case, it was more about me being perplexed as to *why* and when that particular stereotype arose, as it seems ubiquitous now but it's not something I grew up with. I've been told that the Bard's Tale video games and Critical Roll (which I've not watched, so I wasn't aware) are potentially the catalysts for that kind of interpretation.
Anyway, I'll try to adjust my language in the future so I don't come across as someone who is trying to tell others how to play the game.
You can have your preferences, everyone does! I sure wouldnt include adultish activities in a youth group game. I find horny bard stereotypes annoying, myself. Depends on the players, and table.
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