I achieved 2500+ with my Paladin tank in S3 using your guides and now I am even more excited for tanking in S4. Thank you for the awesome pre-season video, Tactyks!
Great video and thank you for taking the time to put this together. I’ve tanked since vanilla and always find myself going back to my Paladin. Just sturdy and group utility is unparalleled imo. I’ve tried every tank and the I feel the most confident on my Paladin!!
No problem at all! I've definitely been a big paladin enjoyer these past couple seasons, the external utility and offhealing feel really nice and unique to Ppal.
Prot war was unkillable before the ignore pain nerf, guardian was unkillable before the rage nerf with talents (cap of thrash) - they've shown they dont like tanks being good. Except DH. Super annoying.
let me fix that for you* prot warrior was and is okay in keys up to +15 but died in any real keys and did no damage, shit tank and boring design too, guardian druid damage is and was dogshit but it just healed the rest of the group as much as a healer because of the tier set prot paladin dps sucks but does okay with offhealing and utility, still below B tier tank Vengeance DH is good but needs brain to do well BMmonk is the same as vengeance DH but higher skill ceiling for better results for pugging Blood DK is indoubtably the strongest tank when it comes to raw damage in most pulls and single target dps, also unkillable, needs some brain to survive but can't really die at all after the person playing understands how death strike healing works
@@coomercommander2554 at some Point keys become about helping your group survive more than yourself that’s why BDK is it not meta and won’t be meta. Love BDK but it’s a selfish tank it brings close to nothing to help your group survive in a higher key like the ones @tactyks does
The sad thing, is that any tanks that come last in a race do to much later improvements to their class, well they well eventually, over time, lack usefulness or interest within the player base. I really hope that BrM can truly be a brew master and get far more sturdy and get to a point they no longer need extra external healing to stay alive.
Brew used to be an absolute glass cannon. I remember outdps'ing dps and it felt so rewarding to perfectly time CDs, kiting, and trinket defensives to stay alive. If they aren't going to buff their defensive or self-heals, at least give them back that sick dps!
As you were saying about protwarri, similar things can be said about DK (Gorefiends being the frontrunner here) and monk (button bloat). It’s baffling to me that i could have said those exact same things 1 or 2 seasons ago, depending on the specc. Why is blizz so hesitant to implement such obvious changes. And you could see the problem with utility sigils coming a mile away in S3 PTR. It means they are either incredibly lazy, which alienates half their playerbase or simply unaware of the problems. I don’t know which is worse.
A big reason is that Blizz considers high level pushing its own game. Once you’re starting on doing dungeons past 3k io they expect weird degenerate actions and play styles. So as long as every tank is good to get to roughly that 3k rating/portals Blizz balance is done. For beyond that if you really care, you’re going to reroll. Although I agree about monk button bloat. That feels like a talent tree rework needed but never done.
That Sense tweet perfectly shows how I feel about class balance in DF. I love DK but I quit playing it because it feels like Blizzard doesn't care for the class and if they don't why should I?
Definitely hurts to see as someone who has really enjoyed playing both Blood and Pwar in the past, really hoping to see them get some attention in The War Within.
Ive been waiting for this video for ages! tytyty lets gooooo as a dps warr main im now shifting all my alt attention to tanks to hopefully main tank for TWW
S1 and S2 I was BrM monk had no issues doing high keys (above 20) coming back after a break to enjoy S4 and will continue to tank as Brew and on my prot warrior alt. I've found that people who chase the meta tend to fall into 2 categories: The super high skilled players who will be doing keys that are beyond me regardless of what tank I choose and people who are looking to get somewhat carried by a meta group choice but don't necessarily have a high skill ceiling themselves. I found that in S1/2 it was a blessing to avoid these players as my friends on meta tanks failed far more keys than me yet we ran roughly the same amount. TLDR: Play what you want unless you're chasing the title.
Playing what you like has always been my motto. Our group is Bear, Ret, Monk, Hunter, & Priest, which definitely isnt the meta, but we did get lucky this past season having a lot of our specs being "Just out of the meta."
I would find it interesting to get your take on which tanks work with which comps. If you want to tank on something other than vdh, what would you look for when you post your own keys?
It's most likely not too different, Paladins are pretty similar, but something like Guardian wouldn't want to group overlap with an Rdruid or Boomkin since they already bring druid utility and mark of the wild. My guess is they'd want either a priest or monk healer to get coverage on disease dispels (if the dungeon requires it), then you could play the same specs as the VDH comp as DPS, or you could play a more phys based comp if you wanted with MW, DPS War, and 2x Rogue. Phys comp isn't looking as good as casters right now, but it gives you a lot more kicks and stuns that the caster comp doesn't have which could be nice for non-VDH tanks.
Still running brew. Equinox is a beast and has great takes and I feel like the “button bloat” is only real if you try to run it as an alt and come from a 2 button tank
I mained Bear Season 2 & Vengance season 3. I'm going back to Bear season 4. The battle rez & verse helps my comp better than magic buff and honestly threat feels so much better on my Bear. Our comp is Bear, Ret Pally, Monk, BM Hunter, and a priest who can roll Holy or Disc.
Big phys comp gaming! Definitely noticed threat being a bit annoying on the VDH for sure, can't just run into a back thrashing and razing to instantly get everything haha.
My plan for Season 4, as most seasons, is to prioritze what my raid needs me on for tank (so prot pally + brew as main alt) and then pug/play with friends up to some point between Portals and Title until it becomes clear it won't be fun to push title and I'm done getting rewards so I go do something else. Probably level different alts on Panda Remix. :)
I am very excited to try out Panda Remix, it looks super cool especially as someone who didn't play until the very end of MoP so I missed out on most of the content!
Holding strong on prot warrior. This is my first season playing wow and obviously my first season tanking. I am up to 2750 io mostly solo queue and can consistently 1-2 key 20-21's. I just really like the playstyle and don't care if it isn't meta from a power standpoint. Less future nerfs (hopefully)! I am going to keep playing it since it is the most fun to me. End of story, right? No. One thing that really sucks about playing Prot Warrior is that I feel like there is a gatekeeper with anything higher than like +22. I have tried on many different occasions to get into 22-23's and consistently get insta-declined within 15 seconds. I also see many listings just straight up say DH tank only. I hope there is some balancing in the future that doesn't make DPS or healers at that level think that it would just be the wrong choice to not go DH with how overwhelmingly more popular/better it is than other tanks.
@@liamdavies2823 Yeah, I agree, my point was more related to being left out due to the spec and not necessarily that I couldn't do that content or that the spec isn't capable of doing that content.
While me and my group understand is the player not the spec 98% of pugs don’t see it that way and it’s the sad reality other tanks bring so much more to the table than a prot warrior. I know prot warrior is fun but if you want to do content and get your $15 worth of monthly sub play something that will get invited into groups.
It's definitely unfortunate how sticking strictly to the "meta" has trickled down into keys where it not only doesn't matter, but also where personally I'd much prefer someone who has stuck to their main character than rerolled to something meta and doesn't have experience playing it. Hoping you have better luck this season friend!
@@Tactyks thank you and thank you for your indepth dungeon videos. I would not have started tanking in the first place without this guidance. I can't wait for your s4 content
I think tanks having more CC would be a very smart move for everyone except the top 5%. I've taken multiple tanks to 3k, and once I get to 25s having to rely so heavily on pugs to all play their role exceptionally well is not realistic, and really limits the fun trying to progress past higher keys as a pug player.
I'm actually totally here for tanks having more control across the board, I just think putting every tank up to VDH level is probably a bit too much. Giving specs a bit more and taking VDH down a little I think is a happy medium!
@@Tactyks I agree. I mained Vengeance this past season. It did feel good being able to solo a ton of CC without worrying about the pugs messing up. With that being said, in my humble opinion the dungeons need interrupts instead of buffing classes to kick said interrupts. On top of that, if you miss an interrupt you wipe. That's a problem. Make interrupts less punishing so classes can off heal to help heals top you back up from a missed interrupt.
With the Follower dungeons I've taken the liberty to relearn tanking (I retired from tanking in MoP was a tank sense TBC) and atm I'm learning and practicing to hope choose which tank class to play next expansion. I'm not concerned with s4 sense I'd like to keep learning the tank classes in till I have what I need down and memorized.
I've been playing VDH since season 1 of Shadowlands and its always been such a fun tank for me. Havoc feels awesome too. I'm too old to heal as an off spec now so my druid has taken a back seat.
As someone who basically comains vdh and guardian druid, I can say guardian druid is just tankier than vdh if played right. Though vdh can definitely make up for that with it’s superior kiting.
They're definitely pretty close durability wise, you could argue for either in different situations. Damage-wise and control capabilities is where VDH is hard outshining every other tank spec atm though.
If they remove double sigil from utility it has repercussions to the other sigil cooldown thing as well so if the utility sigils lose 2 they should reduce the cd of the damage ones slightly to compensate. As I hear what you’re saying your only issue is the utility but nerfing those will double up on nerfing damage sigils effectively.
Yeah, you could potentially buff that specific talent as well to help compensate as well, definitely would like to keep the playstyle intact as I know a lot of people (myself included) enjoy how the spec plays currently!
@@Tactyks eh if you simply buffed the talent it would make the nerf to double utility less impactful as it affects all sigils. There’s probably a number that would work as a happy medium though.
The way you fix BDK is just give it Soul Gorge artifact ability from Legion, the one that would increase your max HP if you over healed with Death Strike. For some reason they gave them Umbelicis which was just like.... I guarantee they did that on purpose. I run Mark of Blood in M+ instead of Tombstone and just use that when I pull a pack. Put it on anything that attacks fast. It's been pretty serviceable.
I run in the 2-2.5k rating range. All these tanks do just fine. I mained vdh all expac. This season I got my first 2.5k rating on him. But I also got 2k on prot warrior and pally. Pally feels like the most complete tank to me, but vdh control is insane. I've been messing with guardian here late in the season. Not sure yet which one I'll run. I have bdk and bmm but way undergeared and underplayed.
I’m torne between all tanks. The only tank I don’t play is Brew Master but every other tank is so fun and engaging in its own way. I’ve been able to get 3k on all of them (except brew) but to push higher VDH feels super tanky once I have everything rolling and I can lock down packs it’s hard to beat that (the only downside at the beginning of big pulls it’s super hard to keep aggro) but like I said all tanks are super fun at least to me.
I would like to see more tanks using big shields and big weapons. Still edging more towards Ret Pala since our guild already has main tanks for raiding etc
Prot Paladin and Bear Druid wants to talk. I do agree to an extent; but that's not the case. They are mixed meta with Prot Pal and VDH this season. Season 1 was majority Prot Pal and same w/ S2 until Bear got reworked. Once bear got their rework in 10.1.5 was just nothing but only Bear. Then S3 was Prot and VDH. Prot Warrior/Brewmaster and Blood are the only ones who have yet to be genuinely "meta." Prot Warrior was meta barely at the beginning of Season 1 till they got nerfed. Then Prot Pal became the only meta. Hell, it was the only one in and above A tier. Nothing was at A tier and the only thing near it was Prot Paladin at S tier.
@@popopiidzdsq9079 That moment when the highest IO was in Season 2 with Bear :O gaspers.... Funny thing is as seasons go on we become stronger and yet Season 2 had the highest vs season 3. Season 1: 3634 Season 2: 4071 Season 3: 4033 Season 4: NA but people are already at 3140 but it is a good mix between classes. Every class has their best tier set and it has been buffed too..... Also if that was the case then in Season 3 we'd have no mix of other tanks. Season 2 was so emphasized on Bear and needing to hit 4k io that the next tank class was VDH that hit 3.8k... In season 3 Prot pally hit 3.9k...... right along w/ vdh. If VDH was as strong as Bear was emphasized w/ other classes then S3 would be even higher than S2. But that is not the case, sorry but S2 Bear was the strongest it has ever been. raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-2/world/all/tank Charts says otherwise. I think we can all agree that VDH is busted utility wise. But nothing compares to the things bear was able to do at their peak.
Still gonna be playing prot warrior, didn’t really push this season too much but was able to get 27-2800. Might dabble with pally though now that the tier set is changing
I want to play a tank, that is the most tanky in the game. Like tanky even without some CD being used. Would prot warrior be a good pick? Seems if you put up sheild block, and ignore pain up that's...pretty much all you need lol . outside of using DEM shout.
I think in terms of being as tanky as possible with the least effort prot warrior is definitely the pick. You can easily get 100% shield block uptime, permanently sit in defensive stance, and dump your excess rage into ignore pain and be solid against all types of damage thanks to the big DR from your tier set. On top of that you have a bunch of excess tools as well with demo shout like you mentioned, as well as spell block and shield wall.
I think the lack of a Cheat Trinket in Season 4 will also further push VDH to the top, as they can swap back to a talent at least if they want. No other tank will be able to get a cheat beyond getting the trinket from M0 Dawn will be pretty low level for anyone pushing higher keys.
Being able to get the cheat trinket on champion track (and potentially hero track via hardmode) will be more than enough for anyone pushing, especially for VDH has they have to take a pretty significant throughput hit to actually spec into their own cheat death talent. All you're missing out on is a little bit of primary stat as the cheat effect scaling doesn't matter at all!
I'll be maining Guardian and alting as Brewmaster as always and will be mostly pugging as usual, I recently tried playing Resto Druid & Mistweaker Monk as a bit of a change but I've realised I will always tank as I'm far to use to dictating routes, pulls, pace etc to do anything else, as such I'm gonna try and find the time to play a 3rd tank, probably a blood DK as it seems to be the most different from bear/brew?
I will always be a die hard BDK player. But realistically I can’t play that to reach my io goals. I don’t run with a team so I’m thinking being able to get into keys. So I typically run something better and have fun on my BDK. Leaning towards VDH again but would love if some changes made bear more viable. As bear is infinitely more fun. I hate demon spike mechanics.
I just recently made a BDK and it’s the most fun I have had in a long time. It’s super unique, like no other tank that’s for sure. I haven’t hit my wall yet, what key levels is that happening for you?
@@Turdfergesun so it totally depends on the skill of the player as well as if you run with a group vs. pugging. So this isn’t easy to answer. BDK vs VDH, bear or pally requires a lot more coordination with group and you need to work harder for you keys as they get higher. I did a few 10s before reset and I may just be spoiled with VDH I wasn’t having the most fun. But with that being said if you go to raider io there are players that are cranking out super high keys this season with them…but again they are in coordinated groups. If you exclusively play it and learn to tank keys based on what you got you can easily get 3.3k or higher full pug. I am just so use to VDH I was doing VDH pulls and was like daaaaaang hahaha
I have been a Vengeance DH/ Havoc main since Legion with a patch here or there as Warlock just to try dps from a Ranged perspective. I don't think the dominance of VDH is the double sigils talent it's self but a teir set issue we have a Talent called Cycle of Bindings which gives 3 seconds of CDR when we hit a enemy with a Sigil which that would normally be fine. The issue is how often these stop sigils are available due to our season 3 tier set. The part of the teir set that super charges Cycle of Bindings and Illuminated Sigils is 1 second off Sigil of Flame every 40 Fury which gives us more Sigil of Flame cast causing alot more CDR on the stop Sigils plus other stop sigils CDRing the stop sigils as well and CDRing more on Sigil of Flame. Illuminated Sigils has given Vengeance DH a identity and needs to stay. This is the first time VDH had felt complete in Dungeon content. When S3 tier set goes away in War Within the frequency of stops will go down. If it needs nerfed a little after that they could make it when Illuminated Sigils is selected these stopsigils CDs could go up buy 30 seconds. For example picking this talent wouldn't effect the CD of Sigil of Flame, Elysian Decree, but would increase the CD on Sigil of Silence from 1 minute to 1.5 minutes, and Sigil of Misery from 1.5 minutes to 2 minutes and Sigil of Chains from 1 Minute to 1.5 minutes. That would bring it more in line in War Within but still preserve Vengeance DH Strengths. Taking that talent away would destroy the Sigil build and put Vengeance back to where it haz been for years always over Shadowed by every other Tank Spec. Also as for S4 it shouldn't be changed they need to let Vengeance DH have its time like Blood DK did in S3 and S4 of Shadowlands. It's a throw away season that doesn't really matter. Blood DK dominance in Shadowlands S3 and S4 was worse then Vengeance DH in Dragon Flight. In the final 2 seasons of Shadowlands Blood was top tank in Raids and M+, Vengeance is only top in M+. Thats my take Vengeance had been in a unfinished state since Legion and finally fills like a complete spec destroying what makes it unique and cool is the wrong move.
I feel like having access to 5 AoE stops and 2 AoE silences is not feeling like a complete spec, rather just being overloaded with utility. VDH has had multiple periods since Legion where people have enjoyed the playstyle AND it's been strong, hell people loved the fiery brand stuff just last patch even, so to say Illuminated Sigils is the only reason VDH feels complete is a bit hyperbolic to me. The sigil playstyle is definitely cool, but a lot of that revolves more around Sigil of Flame usage, so keeping that and potentially adjusting it to compensate would literally keep the exact same playstyle intact, without having the oppressive amount of CC and control they currently have.
For new tanks I always recommend playing the spec that sounds the coolest or has the playstyle that is the most fun to you, as if you enjoy playing your spec there's a higher chance you'll enjoy tanking itself! While VDH is clearly the best tank for high level play right now, but no tank is going to struggle in weekly +10 keys. On top of that, new expansion always shake things up so it's impossible to tell what's going to be strong in TWW until we're way close to the launch.
Emphasis on the caster meta. If you group with Spriest, boomkin and warlocks every day you will be starved for interrupt... and this is a big part of why VDH and Ppal are meta.
Prot warrior Ignore Pain should be rolled back to what made it great in S1. It should be the tankiest class in the game given it's limited self heals and utility. DH is just beyond broken in comparison.
I feel sad for the way DK is now. Once a hero class only to be on par with warrior tanks. My dk's greatest strength is soloing bosses, that's about it. I pushed to 3k with it with much effort and I really hate to be putting effort into a spec that isn't great compared to Veng DHs. I want to know what tank has the greatest survivability vs large pulls or fortified pulls. Everyone says DH but I feel like there are some gaps in DH like improper timing and whatnot vs tanks that cant do the damage but are very tanky.
and if you want to do dmg spec you lose the defensive benefits and choosing between one and another is easy but on fort week I can't do the dmg build because they just fall over too easily.
If you want just the tankiest tank available, I actually think that in a vacuum it's Prot Warrior. The control of DH can help stop important casts, but as you said there is a significant difference in the tankiness of good demon hunters and bad ones due to them not overlapping CDs or executing their rotation correctly. At the same time, being tanky as a warrior is extremely easy, just sit in defensive stance, maintain shield block and dump excess rage into ignore pain and you're most of the way there. Their only real weakness in terms of damage intake is against sustained bleed or magic damage that can't be blocked, but even then with the S4 tier bonus and ignore pain spam you can actually still feel quite tanky in those situations.
I kinda hope that Blood DK will get either a rework or just give them some more utility and maybe some damage because it feels like it's just nonexistent.
While I understand why Demon Hunters might need a nerf in terms of utility I gotta say that I hope they don't nerf them too much. VDH have never been this fun to play, and taking away most (if not all) that utility will leave us feeling just as weak as we've been in previous expansions. I'd rather see longer CD's on utility spells with 2 charges than a complete removal of 2 charges for all of them. It just feels great to have those two charges, and I'd be pretty bummed if I would loose them completely.
It's definitely something Blizzard hasn't handled great in the past, nerfing either the wrong thing on some specs or taking a sledgehammer to them, hoping they get it right with VDH though cause as you said it is a ton of fun to play right now!
Preach :) Except, dont screw with out CC's.... This season i pugged to 3.2K quick before quitting the season, mainly pugging, could not have been done without carrying with the CCs...
That just kind of turns it into a 2nd raid buff no? Unless maybe I'm misunderstanding. Unrelated but I forgot to mention in the video, but personally I'd love to see warriors get Bloodlust, it makes sense thematically and currently no tank can bring it.
Got 3,5k with every tank spec last season… Bdk was draining me Brewmaster (my sweetheart) was giving me a difficult time Pala just confuses me to play to this day Prot was prot Druid just had this ass tier set, really felt the nerfs there And vdh was just dumb at some point
Why does blizz wait MONTHS to buff mediocre tanks (or any spec for that matter). Like why do I have to put up with an entire expansion of prot warrior being dogshit?
Warriors are the best tank! I’m totally not biased or anything though! For real though VDH utility just can’t be topped. So, even though warrior is my favorite I’ve been playing DH as my main for the last couple seasons.
Great video as always. Poor BDK main here , have been playing for 3 seasons pushing until i get rejected in every single party(usually around 28-29 key level). And every season i look forward for some changes , coping really hard and nothing happens to the spec. Gorefiend grasp as baseline, small buffs to single target damage, am i asking too much? Hopefully there will be some tuning before the 10.2.6 .
That's definitely always the goal, but sometimes there are things outside of raw throughput that are the problem, which in the case of VDH is all the control they provide from sigils. If you buffed every tank to have that level of control then either dungeons would feel like they do nothing or they'd have to try and add a bunch more abilities in to challenge groups which I think is the opposite of what they want. Hoping in War Within they peel back on VDH control and also generally reduce the amount of stuff going on in M+, but we'll have to wait and see!
@@Tactyks i mean, the tank population is so low and is also going down. So If everyone is op, then no one is,so I think all the tanks should be strong and accessible. People don't want to tank because it's stressful and the pressure his high. And they make only 1-2 tank playable, making the role highly gatekeeping and inaccessible. I don't think all tanks should have sigil type of strength, but in general, I think all tanks must be very strong in their niche and identity. If don't know how to buff them, just add damage to them, raw numbers. I hate how I play prot war and there's vengeance who does exactly the same, but better. What's the point. Especially with a role that desperately needs population increase.
@@patrickstar1164 Definitely right there with ya, some tanks like prot warrior are completely lacking on the utility front and definitely need a boost. I've made lists in plenty of videos but they just have so many abilities that are held back in some way where other tank specs aren't. Raw throughput wise I think Pwar is pretty good right now, but they just do nothing for your group compared to Druid/Pally/DH which is a problem that definitely needs to be addressed.
@@Tactyks yeah but like if he doesn't have utility, it's his identity. Prot war style is to be a brick wall and do good damage. But now prot war is lacking utility and losing in damage as well. So I think tanks should be designed in a way that even if they lack in something, something else can highly compensate it. But blizz lets tanks be completely bad at everything, makes no sense to me.
That's what people decided to vote on. Defensive-wise I do agree the consecration set was likely better, but I don't think S1 is too far behind, it's easier to play around (you can just perma maintain it), and damage-wise its likely better since you'll be giving vers to another player, so I'm not upset about getting it back.
Lets all be honest here. (im veng main since s1). VDH is so masivly better then ALL the other tanks so that there will be no choices anyway. i play 5 tank specs semi high and nothing can compare. Its like s4 shadowlands dk lvl of strengh. Just boring and shows that they do not fkn care about it
At the very least, I want them to delete illuminated sigils. I don't mind tank strength changing each season, but the fact that they left VDH super broken all season and so far have not announced any changes to it, is disappointing. It has made me not want to tank anymore because it is so demotivating to play other tanks when the gap is so wide. I think they also need to add another tank spec to the game or just convert one of the 26(?) dps specs to tank. I think Survival could make a good tank with some rework of their defensives and a couple offensive changes.
If you take away venge's control then they're a dead tank effectively. Why would you ever take a VDH over a prot paladin or a guardian druid? Vdh needs that niche for relevance. Prot paladins and guardian druids bring so much other group utility with healing, an additional cleanse and battle ress that they would totally dominate if vdh didn't have what it has and in some situations both of those tanks are arguably better. In a pug life world especially at lower IO both of tanks I'd say are much stronger because you can effect your group all by yourself. A prot paladin can lock dangerous mobs down solo, take care of both incorporeal and afflicted by themselves and help cover for a weaker healer. I'd argue that for the vast majority of m+ content played right now not just the very tip top where the meta comes into play prot paladins are the strongest tank in the game and guardian is right there after them. Leave vhd alone and reduce the insane number of caster mobs in dungeons and you'll probably see prot paladins be the top tank again by far.
I feel like there has to be a middle ground here though, you can keep sigil utility without letting the spec have 5 AoE stops and 2 AoE silences. On top of that, I 100% disagree that they're a dead tank without double sigils, you could remove double sigils going into S4 and I'm pretty sure VDH would still be the meta tank just because of their throughput. I'd also disagree and say that with the level of control they have right now, VDH is definitely the best PUG tank atm, soloing 1 mob is nice and all but you can literally solo the stops for an entire dungeon, which just seems like way too much to me. I am 100% with you though, reducing casts and increasing spell CDs in dungeons is something I'd like to see more of, and to Blizzards credit that's exactly what they've been doing on the PTR so that's a positive.
DO NOT recommend removing utility from a class especially a tank. This is legitimately the wrong message to send to blizzard. They need to INCREASE and IMPROVE other classes to get them out of the lazy habit of ruining classes.
I talked about this a bit in the video, but there can actually be big problems with giving too much utility out to specs across the board, the big one being ability creep in trash packs which we've seen a lot this expansion. If you give every tank this level of control, so much that they can literally almost solo the stop requirements in entire dungeons, that's not only not healthy for the game, but it also means they need to add EVEN MORE abilities to trash mobs so that other roles actually get involved. People already think that trash has too many abilities, and I think Blizzard is actually moving in the right direction atm on the PTR where they are removing abilities, adding cooldowns to some, and increasing the cooldown of others. If that happens alongside bringing a clear outlier back in line I don't see any issue, because while yes having unique utility is good, having the level of control that current VDH has is just absurd and not good for the game.
@DavidBoggs-pk8nr 0 seconds ago I've always found while playing a tank, that I'm doing most the hard work and thought to enable a group of other people to have fun.
I achieved 2500+ with my Paladin tank in S3 using your guides and now I am even more excited for tanking in S4. Thank you for the awesome pre-season video, Tactyks!
Don’t forget that the dungeons are gonna be much harder this season. Don’t get discouraged if you jump into a 10 and get deleted. Stay strong!
That's awesome, congrats friend! Happy to hear you enjoy the content :)
So 2500 is something big? :o
@@ejsiy
Yes for someone new to tanking
@@Talj_wow if u think 🤣🤣
I really appreciate the overview and the commentary on prot warrior is so deadly accurate. Great vid my friend!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video and thank you for taking the time to put this together. I’ve tanked since vanilla and always find myself going back to my Paladin. Just sturdy and group utility is unparalleled imo. I’ve tried every tank and the I feel the most confident on my Paladin!!
No problem at all! I've definitely been a big paladin enjoyer these past couple seasons, the external utility and offhealing feel really nice and unique to Ppal.
Prot war was unkillable before the ignore pain nerf, guardian was unkillable before the rage nerf with talents (cap of thrash) - they've shown they dont like tanks being good. Except DH. Super annoying.
VDH will soon get a nerf and fall into that bracket again. Just shows that any spec that gets reworked will rule the patch.
@@candulimataoo2852 VDH has been allowed to remain broken for an entire season without getting nerfed. Other classes were nerfed weeks in.
let me fix that for you*
prot warrior was and is okay in keys up to +15 but died in any real keys and did no damage, shit tank and boring design too,
guardian druid damage is and was dogshit but it just healed the rest of the group as much as a healer because of the tier set
prot paladin dps sucks but does okay with offhealing and utility, still below B tier tank
Vengeance DH is good but needs brain to do well
BMmonk is the same as vengeance DH but higher skill ceiling for better results for pugging
Blood DK is indoubtably the strongest tank when it comes to raw damage in most pulls and single target dps, also unkillable, needs some brain to survive but can't really die at all after the person playing understands how death strike healing works
@@coomercommander2554 only part I disagree with is BDK. I main one around 3500. You get one shot on fort weeks since you have the lowest mitigation
@@coomercommander2554 at some
Point keys become about helping your group survive more than yourself that’s why BDK is it not meta and won’t be meta. Love BDK but it’s a selfish tank it brings close to nothing to help your group survive in a higher key like the ones @tactyks does
The sad thing, is that any tanks that come last in a race do to much later improvements to their class, well they well eventually, over time, lack usefulness or interest within the player base. I really hope that BrM can truly be a brew master and get far more sturdy and get to a point they no longer need extra external healing to stay alive.
Brew used to be an absolute glass cannon. I remember outdps'ing dps and it felt so rewarding to perfectly time CDs, kiting, and trinket defensives to stay alive. If they aren't going to buff their defensive or self-heals, at least give them back that sick dps!
real players always reroll to the worst spec/class each season
Gotta play the game on hard mode!
Awesome insight into the state of tanks for season 4. I'm glad bears got a good tier set again! Thumbs up.
Definitely excited to mess around on my bear again in S4. Glad you enjoy the content!
This coming season 4 is my first full season since not playing the game since MoP. Also my first full season as a VDH, I can not wait!
Welcome back, good luck in S4!
As you were saying about protwarri, similar things can be said about DK (Gorefiends being the frontrunner here) and monk (button bloat). It’s baffling to me that i could have said those exact same things 1 or 2 seasons ago, depending on the specc. Why is blizz so hesitant to implement such obvious changes. And you could see the problem with utility sigils coming a mile away in S3 PTR. It means they are either incredibly lazy, which alienates half their playerbase or simply unaware of the problems. I don’t know which is worse.
A big reason is that Blizz considers high level pushing its own game.
Once you’re starting on doing dungeons past 3k io they expect weird degenerate actions and play styles.
So as long as every tank is good to get to roughly that 3k rating/portals Blizz balance is done.
For beyond that if you really care, you’re going to reroll.
Although I agree about monk button bloat. That feels like a talent tree rework needed but never done.
That Sense tweet perfectly shows how I feel about class balance in DF. I love DK but I quit playing it because it feels like Blizzard doesn't care for the class and if they don't why should I?
Definitely hurts to see as someone who has really enjoyed playing both Blood and Pwar in the past, really hoping to see them get some attention in The War Within.
Ive been waiting for this video for ages! tytyty lets gooooo as a dps warr main im now shifting all my alt attention to tanks to hopefully main tank for TWW
ONE OF US, ONE OF US, ONE OF US!
S1 and S2 I was BrM monk had no issues doing high keys (above 20) coming back after a break to enjoy S4 and will continue to tank as Brew and on my prot warrior alt. I've found that people who chase the meta tend to fall into 2 categories: The super high skilled players who will be doing keys that are beyond me regardless of what tank I choose and people who are looking to get somewhat carried by a meta group choice but don't necessarily have a high skill ceiling themselves. I found that in S1/2 it was a blessing to avoid these players as my friends on meta tanks failed far more keys than me yet we ran roughly the same amount.
TLDR: Play what you want unless you're chasing the title.
unless ur playing holy paladin (more nerfs not even gonna be good)
Playing what you like has always been my motto. Our group is Bear, Ret, Monk, Hunter, & Priest, which definitely isnt the meta, but we did get lucky this past season having a lot of our specs being "Just out of the meta."
@@SouthernDrinkSlingerwindwalker monk is so underrated! Crazy damage and some nice utility
@@davidgreenberg8456 we like it, buffs our physical team
I would find it interesting to get your take on which tanks work with which comps. If you want to tank on something other than vdh, what would you look for when you post your own keys?
It's most likely not too different, Paladins are pretty similar, but something like Guardian wouldn't want to group overlap with an Rdruid or Boomkin since they already bring druid utility and mark of the wild. My guess is they'd want either a priest or monk healer to get coverage on disease dispels (if the dungeon requires it), then you could play the same specs as the VDH comp as DPS, or you could play a more phys based comp if you wanted with MW, DPS War, and 2x Rogue. Phys comp isn't looking as good as casters right now, but it gives you a lot more kicks and stuns that the caster comp doesn't have which could be nice for non-VDH tanks.
Still running brew. Equinox is a beast and has great takes and I feel like the “button bloat” is only real if you try to run it as an alt and come from a 2 button tank
Equinox is definitely a legend, man always makes Brew look INSANE
I mained Bear Season 2 & Vengance season 3. I'm going back to Bear season 4. The battle rez & verse helps my comp better than magic buff and honestly threat feels so much better on my Bear. Our comp is Bear, Ret Pally, Monk, BM Hunter, and a priest who can roll Holy or Disc.
Big phys comp gaming! Definitely noticed threat being a bit annoying on the VDH for sure, can't just run into a back thrashing and razing to instantly get everything haha.
My plan for Season 4, as most seasons, is to prioritze what my raid needs me on for tank (so prot pally + brew as main alt) and then pug/play with friends up to some point between Portals and Title until it becomes clear it won't be fun to push title and I'm done getting rewards so I go do something else. Probably level different alts on Panda Remix. :)
I am very excited to try out Panda Remix, it looks super cool especially as someone who didn't play until the very end of MoP so I missed out on most of the content!
your m+ routes helped a lot :) hope you will do for S4 too
That's awesome to hear! They are currently being worked on and should be coming out over the next couple weeks ahead of the new season :)
Holding strong on Brewmaster !
Holding strong on prot warrior. This is my first season playing wow and obviously my first season tanking. I am up to 2750 io mostly solo queue and can consistently 1-2 key 20-21's. I just really like the playstyle and don't care if it isn't meta from a power standpoint. Less future nerfs (hopefully)! I am going to keep playing it since it is the most fun to me.
End of story, right? No. One thing that really sucks about playing Prot Warrior is that I feel like there is a gatekeeper with anything higher than like +22. I have tried on many different occasions to get into 22-23's and consistently get insta-declined within 15 seconds. I also see many listings just straight up say DH tank only. I hope there is some balancing in the future that doesn't make DPS or healers at that level think that it would just be the wrong choice to not go DH with how overwhelmingly more popular/better it is than other tanks.
i don't think the "meta" starts to really kick in until +24. everything before that can feel great in any spec imo
@@liamdavies2823 Yeah, I agree, my point was more related to being left out due to the spec and not necessarily that I couldn't do that content or that the spec isn't capable of doing that content.
While me and my group understand is the player not the spec 98% of pugs don’t see it that way and it’s the sad reality other tanks bring so much more to the table than a prot warrior. I know prot warrior is fun but if you want to do content and get your $15 worth of monthly sub play something that will get invited into groups.
It's definitely unfortunate how sticking strictly to the "meta" has trickled down into keys where it not only doesn't matter, but also where personally I'd much prefer someone who has stuck to their main character than rerolled to something meta and doesn't have experience playing it. Hoping you have better luck this season friend!
@@Tactyks thank you and thank you for your indepth dungeon videos. I would not have started tanking in the first place without this guidance. I can't wait for your s4 content
I think tanks having more CC would be a very smart move for everyone except the top 5%. I've taken multiple tanks to 3k, and once I get to 25s having to rely so heavily on pugs to all play their role exceptionally well is not realistic, and really limits the fun trying to progress past higher keys as a pug player.
I'm actually totally here for tanks having more control across the board, I just think putting every tank up to VDH level is probably a bit too much. Giving specs a bit more and taking VDH down a little I think is a happy medium!
@@Tactyks I agree. I mained Vengeance this past season. It did feel good being able to solo a ton of CC without worrying about the pugs messing up. With that being said, in my humble opinion the dungeons need interrupts instead of buffing classes to kick said interrupts. On top of that, if you miss an interrupt you wipe. That's a problem. Make interrupts less punishing so classes can off heal to help heals top you back up from a missed interrupt.
With the Follower dungeons I've taken the liberty to relearn tanking (I retired from tanking in MoP was a tank sense TBC) and atm I'm learning and practicing to hope choose which tank class to play next expansion. I'm not concerned with s4 sense I'd like to keep learning the tank classes in till I have what I need down and memorized.
I've been playing VDH since season 1 of Shadowlands and its always been such a fun tank for me. Havoc feels awesome too. I'm too old to heal as an off spec now so my druid has taken a back seat.
VDH definitely feels great right now, hoping that if it does get nerfed they don't take away the fun aspect it has at the moment!
@@TactyksVdh is feeling the same since S1 of bfa where i started tanking it is jzst more powerful with cc now 2 sigils is just way to broken rn
TLDR: If you just want your ksm and keystone hero portal, any class/spec can do it provided you have the gear and experience
Amen
As someone who basically comains vdh and guardian druid, I can say guardian druid is just tankier than vdh if played right. Though vdh can definitely make up for that with it’s superior kiting.
They're definitely pretty close durability wise, you could argue for either in different situations. Damage-wise and control capabilities is where VDH is hard outshining every other tank spec atm though.
If they remove double sigil from utility it has repercussions to the other sigil cooldown thing as well so if the utility sigils lose 2 they should reduce the cd of the damage ones slightly to compensate. As I hear what you’re saying your only issue is the utility but nerfing those will double up on nerfing damage sigils effectively.
Yeah, you could potentially buff that specific talent as well to help compensate as well, definitely would like to keep the playstyle intact as I know a lot of people (myself included) enjoy how the spec plays currently!
@@Tactyks eh if you simply buffed the talent it would make the nerf to double utility less impactful as it affects all sigils. There’s probably a number that would work as a happy medium though.
The way you fix BDK is just give it Soul Gorge artifact ability from Legion, the one that would increase your max HP if you over healed with Death Strike. For some reason they gave them Umbelicis which was just like.... I guarantee they did that on purpose. I run Mark of Blood in M+ instead of Tombstone and just use that when I pull a pack. Put it on anything that attacks fast. It's been pretty serviceable.
I run in the 2-2.5k rating range. All these tanks do just fine. I mained vdh all expac. This season I got my first 2.5k rating on him. But I also got 2k on prot warrior and pally. Pally feels like the most complete tank to me, but vdh control is insane. I've been messing with guardian here late in the season. Not sure yet which one I'll run. I have bdk and bmm but way undergeared and underplayed.
Yeah I really do believe every tank is going to feel the best they have all expansion in Season 4 which is great to see!
I’m torne between all tanks. The only tank I don’t play is Brew Master but every other tank is so fun and engaging in its own way. I’ve been able to get 3k on all of them (except brew) but to push higher VDH feels super tanky once I have everything rolling and I can lock down packs it’s hard to beat that (the only downside at the beginning of big pulls it’s super hard to keep aggro) but like I said all tanks are super fun at least to me.
Yeah I really do believe all tanks feel very good to play in S4 which is always nice to see!
I would like to see more tanks using big shields and big weapons. Still edging more towards Ret Pala since our guild already has main tanks for raiding etc
Im looking to play guardian and prot warrior next season depending how biased ppl are towards vengeance
Always been a fan of the rage tanks, good luck with them in S4!
Its kinda sad how VDH can just be insane all around the season. But other Tanks get nerfed pretty quick. Will still stay on my pwarr tho
Prot Paladin and Bear Druid wants to talk.
I do agree to an extent; but that's not the case. They are mixed meta with Prot Pal and VDH this season. Season 1 was majority Prot Pal and same w/ S2 until Bear got reworked. Once bear got their rework in 10.1.5 was just nothing but only Bear. Then S3 was Prot and VDH.
Prot Warrior/Brewmaster and Blood are the only ones who have yet to be genuinely "meta." Prot Warrior was meta barely at the beginning of Season 1 till they got nerfed. Then Prot Pal became the only meta. Hell, it was the only one in and above A tier. Nothing was at A tier and the only thing near it was Prot Paladin at S tier.
@@eleesium8407
Sorry, but Prot Paladin and Bear never got even close to how much vdh is strong right now
@@popopiidzdsq9079 That moment when the highest IO was in Season 2 with Bear :O gaspers.... Funny thing is as seasons go on we become stronger and yet Season 2 had the highest vs season 3.
Season 1: 3634
Season 2: 4071
Season 3: 4033
Season 4: NA but people are already at
3140 but it is a good mix between classes. Every class has their best tier set and it has been buffed too.....
Also if that was the case then in Season 3 we'd have no mix of other tanks. Season 2 was so emphasized on Bear and needing to hit 4k io that the next tank class was VDH that hit 3.8k... In season 3 Prot pally hit 3.9k...... right along w/ vdh.
If VDH was as strong as Bear was emphasized w/ other classes then S3 would be even higher than S2. But that is not the case, sorry but S2 Bear was the strongest it has ever been.
raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-2/world/all/tank
Charts says otherwise. I think we can all agree that VDH is busted utility wise. But nothing compares to the things bear was able to do at their peak.
Still gonna be playing prot warrior, didn’t really push this season too much but was able to get 27-2800. Might dabble with pally though now that the tier set is changing
Challenging Shout, or w.e is the name, should have aoe interrupt as baseline.
That would definitely be a nice addition instead of having to spend a talent point for it!
I wish it always was season 4. Love how big the loot pool is this season.
It is kinda cool to have so many of the very rare items to choose from!
I want to play a tank, that is the most tanky in the game. Like tanky even without some CD being used.
Would prot warrior be a good pick? Seems if you put up sheild block, and ignore pain up that's...pretty much all you need lol .
outside of using DEM shout.
I think in terms of being as tanky as possible with the least effort prot warrior is definitely the pick. You can easily get 100% shield block uptime, permanently sit in defensive stance, and dump your excess rage into ignore pain and be solid against all types of damage thanks to the big DR from your tier set. On top of that you have a bunch of excess tools as well with demo shout like you mentioned, as well as spell block and shield wall.
I think the lack of a Cheat Trinket in Season 4 will also further push VDH to the top, as they can swap back to a talent at least if they want. No other tank will be able to get a cheat beyond getting the trinket from M0 Dawn will be pretty low level for anyone pushing higher keys.
Being able to get the cheat trinket on champion track (and potentially hero track via hardmode) will be more than enough for anyone pushing, especially for VDH has they have to take a pretty significant throughput hit to actually spec into their own cheat death talent. All you're missing out on is a little bit of primary stat as the cheat effect scaling doesn't matter at all!
@@Tactyks oh I forgot about challenge mode Dawn being revamped, glad I posted and you replied thank you!
@@johnwarner4178 Of course!
Im probably gonna gear out my paladin. Since I got to the expansion last month. I think it’s the best choice for me. Dh as my alt.
I'll be maining Guardian and alting as Brewmaster as always and will be mostly pugging as usual, I recently tried playing Resto Druid & Mistweaker Monk as a bit of a change but I've realised I will always tank as I'm far to use to dictating routes, pulls, pace etc to do anything else, as such I'm gonna try and find the time to play a 3rd tank, probably a blood DK as it seems to be the most different from bear/brew?
As someone who healed a lot in the past before getting deep into tanking, it really is so hard to go back to it haha. Good luck in Season 4!
I will always be a die hard BDK player. But realistically I can’t play that to reach my io goals. I don’t run with a team so I’m thinking being able to get into keys. So I typically run something better and have fun on my BDK. Leaning towards VDH again but would love if some changes made bear more viable. As bear is infinitely more fun. I hate demon spike mechanics.
I just recently made a BDK and it’s the most fun I have had in a long time. It’s super unique, like no other tank that’s for sure. I haven’t hit my wall yet, what key levels is that happening for you?
@@Turdfergesun so it totally depends on the skill of the player as well as if you run with a group vs. pugging. So this isn’t easy to answer. BDK vs VDH, bear or pally requires a lot more coordination with group and you need to work harder for you keys as they get higher. I did a few 10s before reset and I may just be spoiled with VDH I wasn’t having the most fun. But with that being said if you go to raider io there are players that are cranking out super high keys this season with them…but again they are in coordinated groups. If you exclusively play it and learn to tank keys based on what you got you can easily get 3.3k or higher full pug. I am just so use to VDH I was doing VDH pulls and was like daaaaaang hahaha
I have been a Vengeance DH/ Havoc main since Legion with a patch here or there as Warlock just to try dps from a Ranged perspective.
I don't think the dominance of VDH is the double sigils talent it's self but a teir set issue we have a Talent called Cycle of Bindings which gives 3 seconds of CDR when we hit a enemy with a Sigil which that would normally be fine.
The issue is how often these stop sigils are available due to our season 3 tier set. The part of the teir set that super charges Cycle of Bindings and Illuminated Sigils is 1 second off Sigil of Flame every 40 Fury which gives us more Sigil of Flame cast causing alot more CDR on the stop Sigils plus other stop sigils CDRing the stop sigils as well and CDRing more on Sigil of Flame.
Illuminated Sigils has given Vengeance DH a identity and needs to stay. This is the first time VDH had felt complete in Dungeon content.
When S3 tier set goes away in War Within the frequency of stops will go down. If it needs nerfed a little after that they could make it when Illuminated Sigils is selected these stopsigils CDs could go up buy 30 seconds.
For example picking this talent wouldn't effect the CD of Sigil of Flame, Elysian Decree, but would increase the CD on Sigil of Silence from 1 minute to 1.5 minutes, and Sigil of Misery from 1.5 minutes to 2 minutes and Sigil of Chains from 1 Minute to 1.5 minutes.
That would bring it more in line in War Within but still preserve Vengeance DH Strengths. Taking that talent away would destroy the Sigil build and put Vengeance back to where it haz been for years always over Shadowed by every other Tank Spec.
Also as for S4 it shouldn't be changed they need to let Vengeance DH have its time like Blood DK did in S3 and S4 of Shadowlands. It's a throw away season that doesn't really matter. Blood DK dominance in Shadowlands S3 and S4 was worse then Vengeance DH in Dragon Flight. In the final 2 seasons of Shadowlands Blood was top tank in Raids and M+, Vengeance is only top in M+.
Thats my take Vengeance had been in a unfinished state since Legion and finally fills like a complete spec destroying what makes it unique and cool is the wrong move.
I feel like having access to 5 AoE stops and 2 AoE silences is not feeling like a complete spec, rather just being overloaded with utility. VDH has had multiple periods since Legion where people have enjoyed the playstyle AND it's been strong, hell people loved the fiery brand stuff just last patch even, so to say Illuminated Sigils is the only reason VDH feels complete is a bit hyperbolic to me. The sigil playstyle is definitely cool, but a lot of that revolves more around Sigil of Flame usage, so keeping that and potentially adjusting it to compensate would literally keep the exact same playstyle intact, without having the oppressive amount of CC and control they currently have.
I’ve been playing paladin since TBC… it’s not going to be a skinny demonic frog to change my mind. 😅
LMAO never heard that description for demon hunters before.
TLDR: play vengeance only vengeance and nothing else than vengeance
If you wanted to switch it up I think VDH is also looking strong!
@@Tactyks didnt think about vdh thanks will try
Thinking about trying Dragonflight for the first time and bear tanking.
What tank do you recommend for the MOP Remix?
Brewmaster monk for maximum immersion
What would you recommend for someone new to tanking for S4 going into TWW?
For new tanks I always recommend playing the spec that sounds the coolest or has the playstyle that is the most fun to you, as if you enjoy playing your spec there's a higher chance you'll enjoy tanking itself! While VDH is clearly the best tank for high level play right now, but no tank is going to struggle in weekly +10 keys. On top of that, new expansion always shake things up so it's impossible to tell what's going to be strong in TWW until we're way close to the launch.
Been palatanking since BFA, don't intend to stop now. Got 2700 this season without focusing on it.
Got my 2.8k Rio in season 3 on B tier guardian Druid. Looking forward to Season 4. All hail the Bear tank!
Sammmme i got 2750 as a Bear in a month lol didnt even realize It was b tier till someone told me
@@kevinberlanga111 Gj dude. Keep up the good tanking!
Emphasis on the caster meta.
If you group with Spriest, boomkin and warlocks every day you will be starved for interrupt... and this is a big part of why VDH and Ppal are meta.
Very true, if casters stay as strong as they are it would be tough to move off either of those 2 tanks even if they got significant nerfs.
Caster meta? Do others not just invite the first 3 dps that apply?
For weekly keys 100%! For push keys not so much haha
VDH does seem to be way over-tuned compared to the other specs - feels like we're back in the Legion xpac
Prot warrior Ignore Pain should be rolled back to what made it great in S1. It should be the tankiest class in the game given it's limited self heals and utility. DH is just beyond broken in comparison.
hey. How do you make your frames to look green when you have agro on the adds?
That's one of the settings in the Plater profile I use, you can grab it here if you want: wago.io/NaAT_LAIh
@@Tactyks thanks. Do you know if it works with threat plates ?
@@edwinfernandez3253 I've never used Threat Plates so not sure unfortunately.
Prot pal is more than lacking "a bit" in stops lol.
im sticking with brewmaster monk, you can play anything up to +20 and I never push past that so will be good for me :) fook the meta
Keeping brewmaster alive
I feel sad for the way DK is now. Once a hero class only to be on par with warrior tanks. My dk's greatest strength is soloing bosses, that's about it. I pushed to 3k with it with much effort and I really hate to be putting effort into a spec that isn't great compared to Veng DHs. I want to know what tank has the greatest survivability vs large pulls or fortified pulls. Everyone says DH but I feel like there are some gaps in DH like improper timing and whatnot vs tanks that cant do the damage but are very tanky.
and if you want to do dmg spec you lose the defensive benefits and choosing between one and another is easy but on fort week I can't do the dmg build because they just fall over too easily.
my friend said DK's need to chain pull in order to keep up their mitigation plus the coagulopathy to keep up threat. Its just too much effort.
If you want just the tankiest tank available, I actually think that in a vacuum it's Prot Warrior. The control of DH can help stop important casts, but as you said there is a significant difference in the tankiness of good demon hunters and bad ones due to them not overlapping CDs or executing their rotation correctly. At the same time, being tanky as a warrior is extremely easy, just sit in defensive stance, maintain shield block and dump excess rage into ignore pain and you're most of the way there. Their only real weakness in terms of damage intake is against sustained bleed or magic damage that can't be blocked, but even then with the S4 tier bonus and ignore pain spam you can actually still feel quite tanky in those situations.
I kinda hope that Blood DK will get either a rework or just give them some more utility and maybe some damage because it feels like it's just nonexistent.
While I understand why Demon Hunters might need a nerf in terms of utility I gotta say that I hope they don't nerf them too much. VDH have never been this fun to play, and taking away most (if not all) that utility will leave us feeling just as weak as we've been in previous expansions.
I'd rather see longer CD's on utility spells with 2 charges than a complete removal of 2 charges for all of them. It just feels great to have those two charges, and I'd be pretty bummed if I would loose them completely.
It's definitely something Blizzard hasn't handled great in the past, nerfing either the wrong thing on some specs or taking a sledgehammer to them, hoping they get it right with VDH though cause as you said it is a ton of fun to play right now!
Preach :)
Except, dont screw with out CC's....
This season i pugged to 3.2K quick before quitting the season, mainly pugging, could not have been done without carrying with the CCs...
Turn rallying cry into a constant always-on aura instead of a short/brief burst of health (for all war specs, not just prot).
That just kind of turns it into a 2nd raid buff no? Unless maybe I'm misunderstanding. Unrelated but I forgot to mention in the video, but personally I'd love to see warriors get Bloodlust, it makes sense thematically and currently no tank can bring it.
Struggling to get invited to 27's and 28's as blood. Such a shame
Got 3,5k with every tank spec last season…
Bdk was draining me
Brewmaster (my sweetheart) was giving me a difficult time
Pala just confuses me to play to this day
Prot was prot
Druid just had this ass tier set, really felt the nerfs there
And vdh was just dumb at some point
Why does blizz wait MONTHS to buff mediocre tanks (or any spec for that matter). Like why do I have to put up with an entire expansion of prot warrior being dogshit?
Warriors are the best tank! I’m totally not biased or anything though! For real though VDH utility just can’t be topped. So, even though warrior is my favorite I’ve been playing DH as my main for the last couple seasons.
Warrior should be. Plate and big ass shield!
Will you be sticking with paladin in S4?
Unless there are significant tuning changes I'll most likely be giving in to the VDH hype.
@@Tactyksnoooo we've lost him!
Great video as always. Poor BDK main here , have been playing for 3 seasons pushing until i get rejected in every single party(usually around 28-29 key level). And every season i look forward for some changes , coping really hard and nothing happens to the spec. Gorefiend grasp as baseline, small buffs to single target damage, am i asking too much? Hopefully there will be some tuning before the 10.2.6 .
Would really love to see Gorefiends baseline, really hoping BDK gets love in TWW because they've been a bit left out this expansion for sure.
Started in m+ s1 and have worked my way to 3.1k as prot warr this season, I need to give you money or something
Hahaha no money required, your support is enough! Glad to hear you've been making good progress :)
Now BLZ made a perfect tank (DH), I need a reason to continue with my BDK😢
holding onto my bear for s4
BEAR GANG!
@@Tactyks yesssir in the ups and downs!!
Bear!!!
Why all tanks can't be buffed and be good, I don't understand
That's definitely always the goal, but sometimes there are things outside of raw throughput that are the problem, which in the case of VDH is all the control they provide from sigils. If you buffed every tank to have that level of control then either dungeons would feel like they do nothing or they'd have to try and add a bunch more abilities in to challenge groups which I think is the opposite of what they want. Hoping in War Within they peel back on VDH control and also generally reduce the amount of stuff going on in M+, but we'll have to wait and see!
@@Tactyks i mean, the tank population is so low and is also going down. So If everyone is op, then no one is,so I think all the tanks should be strong and accessible.
People don't want to tank because it's stressful and the pressure his high. And they make only 1-2 tank playable, making the role highly gatekeeping and inaccessible.
I don't think all tanks should have sigil type of strength, but in general, I think all tanks must be very strong in their niche and identity. If don't know how to buff them, just add damage to them, raw numbers. I hate how I play prot war and there's vengeance who does exactly the same, but better. What's the point. Especially with a role that desperately needs population increase.
@@patrickstar1164 Definitely right there with ya, some tanks like prot warrior are completely lacking on the utility front and definitely need a boost. I've made lists in plenty of videos but they just have so many abilities that are held back in some way where other tank specs aren't. Raw throughput wise I think Pwar is pretty good right now, but they just do nothing for your group compared to Druid/Pally/DH which is a problem that definitely needs to be addressed.
@@Tactyks yeah but like if he doesn't have utility, it's his identity. Prot war style is to be a brick wall and do good damage. But now prot war is lacking utility and losing in damage as well. So I think tanks should be designed in a way that even if they lack in something, something else can highly compensate it. But blizz lets tanks be completely bad at everything, makes no sense to me.
This is so depressing. This and the recent news about the "MoP Remix" piece of crap is bringing me down HARD. Maybe it's time for a WoW break?? :(
I don’t get it . Why prot pala tier set wasnt the same as the one from s3? Even with consecration pain it was deffo the best from all 3 seasons!!!
That's what people decided to vote on. Defensive-wise I do agree the consecration set was likely better, but I don't think S1 is too far behind, it's easier to play around (you can just perma maintain it), and damage-wise its likely better since you'll be giving vers to another player, so I'm not upset about getting it back.
Love my druid tank
Bear. Sick of BDK. Going back to bear.
Nothing quite like mauling your enemies!
we have support specs....give the utility sigils to those specs. as tank feels terrible to press those globals and it doesnt feel right too.
I have definitely had those moments where I'm just pressing utility sigils early in a pull and forget to press damage buttons to get aggro hahaha
its actually always the same: awesome: vdh maybe pala shit: Brew
VDH for major nerf their sigil is back in line now and BDK is going to be meta I. TWW I. s1
Lets all be honest here. (im veng main since s1). VDH is so masivly better then ALL the other tanks so that there will be no choices anyway. i play 5 tank specs semi high and nothing can compare. Its like s4 shadowlands dk lvl of strengh. Just boring and shows that they do not fkn care about it
Die hard VDH here.
Did I miss the ranking?
It's in order from best to worst
Prot warrior woo
Bear gang
At the very least, I want them to delete illuminated sigils. I don't mind tank strength changing each season, but the fact that they left VDH super broken all season and so far have not announced any changes to it, is disappointing. It has made me not want to tank anymore because it is so demotivating to play other tanks when the gap is so wide. I think they also need to add another tank spec to the game or just convert one of the 26(?) dps specs to tank. I think Survival could make a good tank with some rework of their defensives and a couple offensive changes.
You talk about nerfing vdh one more time and i unsub :D
Finally my only char is not dogwater :D
Buff VDH
@@Tactyks Hahahahahaha, lookin forward to S4 gametime and S4 content, also you are right... i only got 2 charge per sigil wth... definitely need 3 :D
I hope they nerf VDH, I would like to play something different this season!
Will live and die by my blood dk (and my group will die with me).
Im maining bear once again Im not maining it because it was meta no thats just a bonus #GuardianDruid4Life
If you take away venge's control then they're a dead tank effectively. Why would you ever take a VDH over a prot paladin or a guardian druid? Vdh needs that niche for relevance. Prot paladins and guardian druids bring so much other group utility with healing, an additional cleanse and battle ress that they would totally dominate if vdh didn't have what it has and in some situations both of those tanks are arguably better. In a pug life world especially at lower IO both of tanks I'd say are much stronger because you can effect your group all by yourself. A prot paladin can lock dangerous mobs down solo, take care of both incorporeal and afflicted by themselves and help cover for a weaker healer. I'd argue that for the vast majority of m+ content played right now not just the very tip top where the meta comes into play prot paladins are the strongest tank in the game and guardian is right there after them. Leave vhd alone and reduce the insane number of caster mobs in dungeons and you'll probably see prot paladins be the top tank again by far.
I feel like there has to be a middle ground here though, you can keep sigil utility without letting the spec have 5 AoE stops and 2 AoE silences. On top of that, I 100% disagree that they're a dead tank without double sigils, you could remove double sigils going into S4 and I'm pretty sure VDH would still be the meta tank just because of their throughput. I'd also disagree and say that with the level of control they have right now, VDH is definitely the best PUG tank atm, soloing 1 mob is nice and all but you can literally solo the stops for an entire dungeon, which just seems like way too much to me. I am 100% with you though, reducing casts and increasing spell CDs in dungeons is something I'd like to see more of, and to Blizzards credit that's exactly what they've been doing on the PTR so that's a positive.
Unless your doing bleeding sweaty end game content all tanks are just fine.
100% true!
can't wait to sa VDH nerfed
DO NOT recommend removing utility from a class especially a tank. This is legitimately the wrong message to send to blizzard.
They need to INCREASE and IMPROVE other classes to get them out of the lazy habit of ruining classes.
I talked about this a bit in the video, but there can actually be big problems with giving too much utility out to specs across the board, the big one being ability creep in trash packs which we've seen a lot this expansion. If you give every tank this level of control, so much that they can literally almost solo the stop requirements in entire dungeons, that's not only not healthy for the game, but it also means they need to add EVEN MORE abilities to trash mobs so that other roles actually get involved. People already think that trash has too many abilities, and I think Blizzard is actually moving in the right direction atm on the PTR where they are removing abilities, adding cooldowns to some, and increasing the cooldown of others. If that happens alongside bringing a clear outlier back in line I don't see any issue, because while yes having unique utility is good, having the level of control that current VDH has is just absurd and not good for the game.
I am so glad i never watched your videos ever. toxic opinions and toxic words.
Me too, ignore the fact that I'm in the comments of one of those videos now providing engagement.
First?
🍪
@DavidBoggs-pk8nr
0 seconds ago
I've always found while playing a tank, that I'm doing most the hard work and thought
to enable a group of other people to have fun.