SIFTING COFFEE - Does It Make A Better Brew?
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- Опубліковано 21 січ 2021
- Sifting coffee is creates a whole new level of coffee nerd, and I think it's time we take a bit of a closer look at the process and if it actually makes better coffee.
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Engineers: the less moving parts the better
Coffee enthusiasts: adds 50 other variables
We sure do love to complicate the most basic things.
@@Sprometheus The fun is just priceless haha
A (scientifically minded) coffee enthusiast _discovers_ new variables.
Love the video. The struggle is REAL! As a Niche and Kruve owner myself, I eventually found a solution that works to my taste (espresso, Chemex, 12 hour cold brew). For pour overs and cold brew, I use all the grounds above 800 microns. Keeps “waste” at close to ten percent. The rest goes into a mason jar to be used for the occasional mediocre espresso. I don’t bother regrinding the boulders, as the value and time proposition just seems too low.
The crucial thing is, are you upset by drinking a mediocre espresso when you know that another “better” one could be had?
An extremely wise man once quipped, “we are judged rich by what we can afford to live without.”
As for me, I’m glad I’m not this Prometheus guy.
Imagine using a laser machine to cut coffee beans down to the ideal size with no fines. Say good bye to coffee grinders 👋
And people say I take this coffee stuff too far...Haha
but wouldn't lasers heat the change the roast type, and thereby change the coffee quality? because lasers use create heat
lol, laser cutting your beans and roasting them at the same time
That would be insanely expensive and bad for your health actually. Lasers produce so much heat that harmful compounds may form in the process. Lasers are not designed for food purposes (yet)
We all know that using a HX-160 AI Neurolex CNC microblade cutter to individually cut each bean is the best way to cut your 2400ft High Elevation Masha Kiln Roasted Beans.
Thanks for all the work!
I first saw a Kruve sifter in one of Hoffmann´s videos a while ago. I thought: omg this tool will solve problems i`m facing when using my Hario Skerton. But then I started thinking (after I had a cup of delicious V60 filter coffee). I won´t need a Kruve if I invest into a decent grinder (No, i can´t afford a Niche Zero).
Now I see you sifting ground coffee coming out of the Niche Zero and i´m full of questions again.
Haha, okay I get you. So I should say the Niche, in its price range is as good as a grinder gets in terms of its grind quality. If I were to do this same experiment with a Baratza Encore the results would be drastically different.
The Kruve Sifter is a great tool, but it’s my no means required to make an amazing cup. Sifting is like next level coffee nerdism.
Also ive been told by Coffee Chronicler (on UA-cam) that a solid hand grinder (for example 1zpresso jx which is less than $200) is much more suited for filter coffee than a niche zero.
@@owenhu9465 that may be his take, but keep in mind that none of what he or I say is the final word. They may make different cups, but the final taste is a preference, not a fact.
I have had a similar experience. I was awakened to the amazing world of third wave specialty coffee about two years ago and I only had a (terrible!) blade type grinder at the time. I had no idea how important grind quality is. I watched Hoffman's video on making grinds from a blade grinder less terrible (shake, sift, regrind, and use paper towels) and I noticed a genuine improvement. Then, I bought a Baratza Virtuoso Plus grinder and was very happy (and continue to be) with the major improvement in taste compared to the nasty blade grinder. (This is all in the context of manual pourover brewing). And then just a few weeks ago, I got a Kinu M47 Phoenix hand grinder--and the pourover optimized burr. And it's been very interesting! With the special pourover burr, this Kinu hand grinder (which is in a similar price range to the Virtuoso when you add the additional burr) makes the best pourovers I have made yet. It's not a drastic difference, but, IMO, slightly better than the Virtuoso.
When I grind the same coffee for a V60 pourover with the Virtuoso and then the Kinu at a very similar grind particle setting, and then brew two pourovers, I can see after the drawdown (and the coffee bed) that there are fewer fines with the Kinu grinder. It produces a better quality grind than the Baratza. It's not a huge difference. The Baratza is still quite good and I am still happy to use it. But it's been fascinating to see that you can get a smaller portion of fines and overall more consistent grinds with a high quality hand grinder. And, at least to my palate, I think I do taste a small increase in what people call the clarity and focus of the flavor.
FWIW (which probably isn't much), going by my experience, I would recommend to anyone either the Baratza Virtuoso or the Kinu M47 for pourover brewing. If you really want to maximize your value for money in comparison to the grind quality, and you don't mind grinding by hand each day (a little less convenient), I would say go for a Kinu M47 Phoenix with the additional pourover burr. It's a great way to get what seems (to me, anyhow) a very good grind quality for considerably less cost than something like the Niche.
@@Sprometheus A very good point. It has to be the case that the impact of sifting will be very different depending on what grinder is being used.
The trick is probably not to eliminate all fines or all boulders but to experiment in ratios. My guess is that at certain percentage of fines and boulders you will gain richer spectrum of taste of that coffee and I'm pretty sure you will have completely different ratios for drip and for espresso.
I’ve come to the same conclusion! Glad to read it!
The mystery of the experience of taste! As always, love your straightforwardness and ability to be honest to your experience rather than go with what might be theoretically expected.
I built my own sifter. 300 micron mesh and a plastic sandwich box.
I realised that fines are the ones that make my V60 undrinkable. I experimented with different grind settings on my Wilfa Swart, but was no good. Muddy bed every time. I eventually stopped and bought a Clever dripper. That was much better but still muddy bed at the end.
Than I started to sift. Omg!
What a difference. Finally I could control times with grind setting. Don't forget, I have a cheap grinder.
Now recently I bought a really good hand grinder. I still have to sift out the fines, but I get waaay less boulders. And also less fines, but I don't always sift anymore. If I feel like it...
I also have to make about 0.7 litre of coffee every morning to bring to work. I have a filter coffee machine, a dripper if you will, and without sifting out the fines, I think the machine would overflow. The fines would just clog the filter, making a total mess in my kitchen.
I would like to have a Kruve complete set one day, but my modus operandi atm is what I'm happy with and recommend to every one with a cheap grinder.
And the waste is not too much. About 1g for every 16 that goes in the Wilfa.
Perhaps we need the sifters built into the grinder, separating each size into separate hoppers.
I use Jame's Clever method of pouring the beans on top of the water. But I use a tiny whisk and slowly and evenly whisk the grinds into the water. A lot of the ground coffee seems to separate from the fines and sink to the bottom and the fines float around and stick to the paper-over the grinds. I can get a pour-down of 40 seconds for 30 grams of beans on medium- fine setting. I don't taste any over extraction. Very clean and delicious. I am still amazed by how fast it flows at the end.
After all the research, in the end it really is a philosophical question of whether to sift or not to sift.
Thank you for experimenting with it!
That’s a fact! It’s one of those things you just have to want to do, haha.
What i do with my Kruve sifter is merely to use it to remove ultrafines, leaving me a better tasting cup of coffee. The micron level where u determine ultrafines is based on your brewing choice and grinder. Im a pour over and Comandante user. One needs to experiment. I leave in the boulders bec i found the cup 'too clean and bland' when i remove the suggested micron for boulders but i get marvelous results removing the small portion of ultrafines.
I use a fine kitchen strainer for fines and think it really helps to get a lot of flavor without getting too roasty/bitter. I haven't tried re-adding them mid brew yet, but feel like this could add a touch of flavor if done at the perfect time.
I had lots of fun experimenting with the kruve to find out what grind distributions my grinder had at different settings... But similarly didn't incorporate it into my usual work flow. Maybe just to remove the most egregious of boulders (for regrinding or other uses) and dust-like of fines (can be used to make Turkish coffee), but ideally you'd have a good enough grinder that there shouldn't be too much of those... In a frustrating sense, those who would benefit most from sifting, would also be wasting the most coffee, and would perhaps be better off replacing their grinder.
Definitely resonate with the breaking point idea. Also completely agree about the filters. Similar to roasting, the better you know the equipment you are using and how it effects things, the better result :)
Hi Sprometheus :) When using sifter, i regrind the coarse fraction same as you did, but I found better use for the fine fraction actually - to make ibrik coffee. Of cause it means I would have to drink both. I even experimented with sifting for espresso, using my coarse fraction for pour over and fine fraction for ibrik - but that needs larger amount of people to serve coffee to :) no waste though ..
Thanks for this info. Unrelated question, you mentioned your "everyday brews," as opposed to premium offerings, and I'm wondering if you could recommend some coffees to try or even what to look for. Typically I seek out single origin, direct trade, fresh roasted, etc., but I would consider those premium, based on the price ($19/12 oz in my area). Maybe going with a blend? Other thoughts?
Thanks for the video !
My spontaneous reaction is to come up with another kind of brewing for the fines and the boulders, and take advantage of the uniformity among the grounds that would otherwise not be obtained through normal grinding.
Are the bowlers for example ideal for a uniform French press? Cold brew? Are the fines suitable for an aeropress with the fellow prismo attachment or some other kind of high pressure technique?
If the fines of the boulders are usable right out of the sift maybe you can switch filters to something that doesn't yield the maximum amount of grounds in your middle compartment, but gives higher uniformity.
What a well thought out video, SUBSCRIBED. Love it. Also, could we not consider trying to tune into good espresso using the fines?? Then there's no waste!
you can use the fines for Turkish coffee assuming you do enough brews in a day or a brew large enough to generate >7g of fines
Honestly, the "coffee aficionado" part of me thinks that it's a great idea, even necessary, but practically I don't think it worth the hassle.
The only time I would consider sifting is for the French press actually. Even my somewhat premium hand grinder (Timemore C2) doesn't fair really well in the coarser end of the spectrum, leaving a ton of fines that muddy up the cup.
Yup. You're right. Timemore C2 is a decent grinder intended for pour over enthusiasts. But as with any grinder, as you move to the coarser settings it becomes more and more evident the lack of consistency and you'll get some fines as well. Higher end grinders produce much less fines but if you want ultimate clarity sifting is the way to go!
I like to think of my coffee sifter as another tool in my coffee brewing and not in such black and white terms of good or bad.
There are coffees, roast profiles, brew methods, etc. that lend themselves to sifting, others that do not, and some that benefit from a combination. Its fun to experiment and switch things up. If every coffee i made tasted the same it would get old, even if it was an objectively good coffee. Familiarity breeds contempt.
Hey, you could always use the fines in an aeropress! I had great cups using them with short brew times and you don't feel bad for wasting great beans!
I’ve definitely heard of folks doing that. I’m just more of a coarse grinds Aeropress fan. But next time I sift I may give it a go and see how it works.
Only consideration is if you drink two cups in the morning only , then the leftover ground coffee is starting to go off !
If you had a public cafe , you could do customised service .
@@Sprometheus maximizing the taste of Aeropress with fines and then comparing that taste and exaction % to a coarse aeropress method would be an interesting video.
What filters do you recommend / that are cost effective? I've been using the super cheap bulk coffee maker filters for everything.. should I use something else? I guess I never considered there would be a big difference.
The standard filters went to 2:35+ in extraction time with filtered fines out because they clog with fines faster than the cafec light filters. clogging makes the water flow uneven and you have channeling that that leads to bitterness. This is why you had a higher extraction with standard filter without fines compared to with fines. The standard filters are not so great with finer grind cause they clog, so they might work better with kasuya style of brewing, that not everybody enjoys. The bitterness and dryness in the taste comes not from the fines, but from clogging the paper filter and channeling. Why? because if you brew with tricolate or aeropress transformed to tricolate you can have 6-7 minutes brews with water being in contact with the coffee and a much finer grind than v60 here, and you have exactly 0 bitterness, because there is no bypass and less clogging. In the end there is big misconception in brewing that bitterness is due to fines, and all grinders that do fines suck. The grinder that do more fines, will clog your filter paper faster making more channeling resulting in more bitterness, so in the end it's a paper filter problem, not a grinder problem.
I'm pairing an m47p with the sifter max right now. I figured that would stretch the "life" of the grinder before I invest in something nice like an hg-1 and I'd still have the sifters here in a few years. Playing around with kinus or commandantes etc and sifters could make for an interesting video.
I’ve definitely been curious about hand grinders, personally I’ve tried a few but never really dug into them. I’ll put this on my idea list for sure.
Hi Spro. I'd suggest saving the fines in a vaccum (well, I use a straw) zip lock to regrind for espresso or more likely Turkish. Because I sometimes run into, or near to, running our of coffee beans. Not optimal experiences but in case it ever becomes a choice between filling my gas tank or my bean canister.
Finallly upgraded to a Comandante. Which papers would you suggest? Meanwhile I'm making Clever Dripper brews. Don't have a gooseneck, and since my PicoPresso not sure I like filter all that much by comparison...
Thanks
Watched this after your most recent video upload about the Fellow Shimmy.
Haven’t used my Kruve sifters yet. Only had them since the original Indiegogo campaign, lol! 😳🤣
Super informative. I would have tried this myself if I had the money 💰
it could be a cool experiment to layer the different grind ranges in a conical filter and use a low agitation brew method to limit the migration between the layers. Maybe layering them from coarse to fine (bottom to top) would yield a more even extraction as the grinds at the bottom of the filter receive a higher volume of water flowing through them. You should try this!
I like the general idea, but wouldn’t the finer parts be even more overextracted in this process? And if we were to put the boulders to the bottom and the fines on top, I imagine the different layers would already fall apart and mix with each other when pouring... there’s only one way to find out: someone’s gotta try that out!
This is an interesting idea. I may give it a shot!
I can see flat bottom filters holding the different sizes apart. Lots of paper though. If it only grew on trees!
I have seives and can experiment, I favour the ROK espresso hand operated process . Hand controlled using psi to extract various outputs . If you go quickly I find a very clean flavour , or slow for deeper extraction.
But the seives are for true believers only as not cheap .
My Classic Espresso machine , the solenoid is blocked .
Fun topic. I use the Kruve sifter for every day drinking, but, I discard only the fines and will brew the boulders with the rest of the ‘ideal’ grinds. I usually grind 15gm and end up with 1.5ish grams of discarded fines ~13.5gm brews. The taste in the cup is noticeable, the waste isn’t bad and the process isn’t too cumbersome :)
I use the 1000 and 400 sift plates.
Cheers
May I ask what grinder you are using to only waste 10% of the grind? I find even with my dialed-in hand grinder, I waste 40% of every grind (either too fine or too coarse)
I re-grind the boulders.
Hahahaha. There's no conclusion but I enjoyed watching this the most.
Haha, which is why I felt like it was a “failed” experiment. I guess that’s just how it goes sometimes. I was already 4 hours of filming and testing in, couldn’t just scrap it. Felt like the most real thing to do, and just be honest.
@@Sprometheus I also have a niche and appreciate knowing it’s not just me getting a tone of fines. Thanks for the video
@@Sprometheus I wouldn't call this a failure. The first thing that comes to mind when you tried to brew grounds that are of same sizes is packing efficiency. Assuming ground size is similar, the shape of individual ground determines packing efficiency. With lower packing efficiency, there are more spaces in between each coffee bits so water passes much much faster. I'd do more experiment with the sieve. Keep the 1000 and 500 micron mesh, compare grounds of conical burr and flat burr. That'd be interesting.
@@TimBlackwell typical with conical burrs. I find sifting provides a clearer cup. I'd do it if there was a practical way to do it everyday...
@@Sprometheus I really enjoyed this video, and the ideas presented within. Definitely very happed it wasn't scrapped!
Please forgive a second comment here. . . . I recently got a Kinu M47 Pheonix hand grinder (along with the additional burr designed for pourovers). I love this thing. It is fascinating how well this grinds for pourover brews. I noticed that there are (according to my limited experience) what seems to be very few fines in the grinds when using the Kinu with the pourover burr. There are still some. They aren't non-existent. But very few. It does indeed seem that fines become a problem only when they constitute a certain proportion (or more) of the total amount of grinds being used. That proportion seems to be fairly low for the best tasting cup. But, it's not zero.
interesting, but why wouldn't you use the different sized grinds for different extraction methods? like the larger granules for cold brews or a French press, while the finer ones for espresso, with the ones in the middle for an aero press?
Lol, that wasn't a disaster video at all. It was very helpful. Thanks for sharing your experience. That just saved me $100. 🤠
Hey Spro what's that La Loma Gesha like? I've recently bought 3 Columbian Gesha's (Rafael Amaya, ANDRÉS LONDOÑO & SEBASTIAN GOMEZ). Londono's was excellent, almost on par with the Panamanian Esmerelda. Didn't like Amaya's but the Gomez was good. If you can get the Londono, try it!
As a daily sifter, I would argue that the benefits of sifting really stem from being able to grind finer. To minimize waste what you can do is layer the coffee and for that you would have to start off dialing in your coffee as you normally would without sifting. Once you find the furthest or finest that you can grind you then sift and layer your coffee with the finest grinds at the top, you'll find that you're able to lessen the clogging and so in return you're able to grind just a little bit finer to get a little bit more out of your coffee. Fine migration still occurs however since you're starting from a point of order it takes a little bit more time and effort for them to affect drawdown, especially if you're using Tetsua's and current brew theory on bypass; no flat bed/osmotic flow (I hate this word).
Tl;dr: you can grind finer and target boulders
I use the filtered out fines to make turkish coffee or coffee on a moka pot 👀
Its a great excuse for me to drink more coffee
What about sifting for espresso? It seems like removing chaff would help avoid channeling and variation so you can dial in with certainty, rather than dialing the wrong way due to a rogue shot. I’d never bother for pour overs.
I’ve done it in the past but don’t clearly remember the outcome. I do remember it being trickier than it seems. I figured if this video drew enough interest I’d do another with espresso.
@@Sprometheus Given that this experiment didn’t have a clear result, an espresso video makes sense. Might it be conclusive or might it also vary? I’m curious to know.
@@JonFairhurst yeah, I mean it did and it didn’t. I think the result I wanted, or hoped for, didn’t materialize. I really wanted to find a way to use all the grinds in way that produces a great cup with clarity, balance, and no waste. From my perspective I don’t think that’s possible.
In terms of espresso it is something worth trying. I may see if the sifter filters I have on the fine side will work and then start to look into what angle the video may take.
I have a Wilfa Uniform and use a Talisman 200 micron sieve just to take away some fines. For a 30g V60 brew I take away about 2g and it makes a big difference in terms of consistency. I'm definitely not paying the money for the Kruve ones, I paid 20$ fot the Talisman lab sieve and that's enough :D
That said, I use the sieve for V6p brewing mostly. For my Clever Dripper I don't sift anything anymore.
Kruve was kind enough to send me the unit awhile back, but I do know that the cost can be an issue. But it’s a beautiful piece, and allows a lot of filter options, from grinds to bean size.
But yeah I’m with you. I use it sparingly, and I don’t know how much of a difference it would make in immersion brewing methods. If this video gets enough love I may do another using immersion and espresso.
There's no disasters in science.
Are you going to do any videos on home roasting?
how that grinder is called? i like its looks
What about using a unimodal burr set? Might lead to less waste?
Not at all a disaster of a video. I also indulge in the audiophile world at times. With any passionate hobby, there is a real chance to get lost in the details. It’s difficult find that balance sometimes, but that could be the fun in itself. It gives you the journey to perfection that we are after.
Absolutely! And even though we never find perfection, we learn a lot, and hopefully have a little fun along the way.
cant you use the dust and the fines for espresso or turkish or even mokapot?
cuz I had done the same sifting thing (minus the expesnive kruve sifter),
from 15gm of coffee, I got 10gm medium and 5gm fine.
the more I dwelled into being a coffee douche, the more I got turned off by being the coffee douche and went the fuck it route
Sifting or sieving could be of use if you have both paper filters and a good French press/plunger, like an Espro which has a super-fine stainless mesh filter, because plunger coffee is quicker & cheaper than paper filters. Use the coarse grinds in the plunger, and save the paper filters for the fine grinds.
I wish Kruve would make a bigger Brewler the ruler they make now. That to me is way more useful than their shifter. It is putting numbers to grind size at a much more affordable cost.
As for sifting coffee, it makes more sense for larger applications, where coffee companies that pre-ground sort out the different grounds and sell them for different applications. The fines for moka, the boulders for cold brew, the rest in the mid range for coffee machine etc.
The Brewler is definitely an interesting tool. I have one, but haven’t used it a ton. But it is definitely much more affordable than the sifter.
I don't know if this was asked, but did you try using the fines for making espressos or moka pots?
Are those find grounds no good for espresso??
I would love to see you put the sifter up against the "paper towel" method of putting ground on a paper towel to let them catch the superfines. My experience is that the paper-towel method makes a tiny difference, but not enough of one that it is worth wasting a paper towel on every day.
Interesting. I’ve heard of the paper towel method, haven’t tried it. I’ll check it out. Just off the top of my head would be you’re right, the sifter will likely be more effective, but it’s also far more expensive.
@@Sprometheus I presume you can grind finer overall with all these methods because you don't need to be as concerned with clogging but your median grind profile
@@potatotr33 you can indeed grind finer than usual because choking and clogging is much harder to do.
Can you us the coffee fines to make cold. Brew
Hey Asa! I enjoyed the video but I agree with the comments saying that you added too many variables. You fixed your particle size from 500-1000 um and mentioned that there were about 8 grams of waste out of that range. You could have tried different grind settings on the Niche and compared the results maybe. Also what about choosing that working range? maybe next time you could try several smaller ranges: 400-600, 600-800, 800-1000 um? I understand that those videos could be a little bit technical for most people but I'm sure some fellas would appreciate them (including me!). Keep up the good work!
Hey, thanks for watching! I actually did do a lot of toying around with different sizes and found these two sizes worked best for what I was doing and brewing. Finer on the bottom would mean less fines in the end, but more smaller particles still in the middle that decreased clarity. It’s all just a matter of your cup preference. I love all the clarity and brightness so losing as much fines as possible allows me to create a super clean cup.
Use the fine for espresso?
thanks ! sifting always seemed to me not necessary, i mean maybe we need those fines when we brew. but how about clever dripper ? have you tested it yet ?
From my experience sifting doesn't make much difference when you brew a Clever dripper. Sifting for V60 has a much bigger impact.
Personally I haven’t tested it in the Clever. Maybe I’ll give that a try and report back. My guess is when it comes to immersion brewing it would make less of a difference though.
Anyone know what those clear cups he’s using are called? Trying to find some info on why people use them other than for insulation and temperature. Thanks
I think they're Kruve propel cups
@@Metalhead121396 thanks
Instead of adding the fines later to your brew wouldn’t it be more useful to find a different brew method where you can use the fines, Aeropress for example?
That’s true, and I know people who use them in their Aeropress or other methods. I guess I’m just so stuck on the use of fresh grinds and dialing in for all my brews that it’s hard to imagine using them in something else.
But maybe I should start gardening, I hear coffee grounds are helpful in that.
What is that app you use with you TDS reader? It looks really helpful. Thanks
I use an app called Optimal Coffee Extraction. I know it’s on iOS, not sure about other OS’s.
@@Sprometheus thank you for your response. Not available on Android, but that's ok I've got an old iPhone around that I can use. So far the app is super clean and easy to use
You can avoid sifting completely if you do minimal agitation, by means of a dispersion screen like the Gabi Master B or melodrip. Fines migration can me minimized bringing a much clearer brew without the bad, bitter or astringent notes usually found in most pour overs
spot on ! 6:11 - 6:42 . instead of worrying about the grind size by sifting, invest in a good filter paper, which is not expensive. n focus on your pouring technique to extract the tastes that u like!
man!! what's going on!! each time I thought to buy a new coffee tool/accessory I found your videos pushing me back not to buy! thank you so much for saving my money :) :) :) at least I'm trusting you and it become more and more trust since you're not like others just marketing some ideas :)
I've been experimenting with the single pour on v60 (has no bloom) after hearing good things, but I cant seem to get it to work. Anyone have some tips?
What about it doesn’t seem to work exactly?
@@Sprometheus I was attempting to get the whole pour in 15 seconds like Tetsu from the brewers cup advised, but with my hario 01, it always took 35+ to get the total volume in. It's honestly still very good and super quick, but I'm just wondering if its possible to get a 15 second pour without making the dose incredibly small.
@@nasonwise2904 have you ever tried the single pour by Vincent from Tales of coffee? His method is one of the best and I get consistent results every time with very little effort. Kasuya's single pour is a bit tricky
From my experience, you should replace the 500um filter with a 250-300um
I did try quite a few different filter sizes, but found the finer sized did reduce the amount of fines, but also allowed some larger fines to stay in the middle section and increased the chance of choking, as well created a brew with less clarity. The sizes all depend on your preferences though. If you like more body and less clarity the finer filters would likely work best.
I feel a review of a whole range of different cone filters coming...
I'm so glad that I'm much more into what you might call "specialty" tea, than coffee.
Buy good quality leaves, a few relatively inexpensive accessories, add hot water... great tea! :)
I can offer a few suggestions for potential (admittedly high-tech, futuristic) solutions:
- engineer nanobots that slice up coffee beans into grinds of precise size, weight and shape
- genetically modify coffee beans to grow into shapes that are conducive to being sliced into even chunks (possibly by above nanobots), eg. flat 1mm discs.
Get some MIT postgrads on to it now!
In my opinion you should stick with one type of paper filter and focus on your experiments with the kruve sifter, it will came out a one big conclusion and the result will be more obvious.
The concept of the sifter is really cool, but you'd think that a really nice grinder would already give you consistent particle size. That being said, I usually like to grind finer and finer until I begin to taste some bitterness. Cheers!
Doesn’t matter how nice the grinder is, you’ll always have uneven particle sizes. It’s just how grinders work.
Yeah there is no perfect grinder, but the Niche is actually really good for its price point. And they method of grinding you explained is a great way of approaching it!
@@Sprometheus It's definitely worked out so far and has helped me not stress over about grind size.
I use a Encore for drip brews, hoping to grab a Niche once it gets released again!
After sifting I use the super fine (around 6-7 g) to make Turkish Coffee … add a stick of Cinnamon and what a bonus.
It’s worth for once in a while experience i guess 🤷♂️✌️
Just occurred to me that I first noticed problems with fines and clogged filters when I started grinding coffee at home...I never had this problem with commercially ground coffee. So perhaps large industrial grinders are better than domestic grinders? It’s definitely more of an issue with lighter roasted specialty coffee though...my rather speculative theory is that the surface oil in dark roast coffee lubricates the burrs and makes it easier to grind well.
Darker roasted coffee is also more brittle. So it it grinds with consistency with less effort.
i really like this video. Only thing i wish to see is a bit more time spent on comparing the cups and maybe a few screens showing stats comparisons.
Lol love it 😍
Thanks for the support my friend!
I can't afford an electric burr grinder so I sieve my coffee after grinding with the blade grinder and I'm able to get awesome fine grounds for my espresso
Although there is no conclusion I enjoyed the video a lot
Thanks! I think in the end, the conclusion is kind of up to the viewer.
I was really hoping to find a way to use all the grinds with zero waste and was just a bit disappointed. But felt like the informs was still worth sharing.
I would personally (if I could afford it) use the sifter as an analysis tool rather than a true part of the ritual, finding out the range of particles sizes different grinder give at different settings is an interesting thing yo do and can help transfer from one grinder or coffee to another.
Do premium grinders still produce fines/boulders?
Yeah, it’s just the way all grinders work. I’ve never heard of a grinder that doesn’t. It’s just a matter of how much. The Niche is actually pretty good in the grand scheme, especially for the price.
@@Sprometheus so then why do so many different grinders exist in the premium category? They all produce fines and ground coffee
@@azzarooni8532 Burrs geometry and burrs alignment will change the ratio of each other. Good grinders have exactly the right amount of fines and boulders so it should give you the best taste. This is why people pay so much for SSP burrs and this is why there are different burrs for espresso and for other brewing techniques.
what about using a sub par grinder and sifting to get a better outcome would it just be better to buy a better grinder?
I think that would be a pain in the butt to dial in the right grind size, plus the waste issue would be even worse.
@@SlimBarista that makes since ty and yeah after some thought it seems like a good investment to just get a grinder that has smaller steps or at least mod the brass selector to have twice as many steps
@@Moosehatchling Yeah I agree. Also, it goes without saying that grind evenness is the most critical thing, because even if the grinder has infinite adjustment and yields inconsistent grind it would still be useless ofc. If I were to give you my opinion, I've found that there are some hand grinders among the entry level premium range to be the best bang for the buck - wink wink Timemore C2 - unless you're going for espresso.
@@SlimBarista thats what i have and use it with a flair and i mean its really good but some times ill roast a batch and need to really play with the dose to try and match recipes granted its almost never a bad cup just feel like i could do better
@@Moosehatchling I know what you're saying, that's why we always can't help but feel insecure about our brewing and spend so much time fussing around these channels haha, it's definitely an inescapable rabbit hole, for all the good reasons :) Happy brewing.
did not understand the "use same grinder setting" approach for the sifted brew...
the reason to do so, as I can see it, is the ability to go finer on a grinder without choking the filter and increasing the brew time
smaller particles = higher and more even extraction overall
maybe over this years your opinion has changed, but still...
as for me, I prefer non-sifted v60 and sifted clever (using cheap option from Ali, get approx 5% of fines of ~espresso size particles in a minute sifting)
Can you use the fines to make espresso?
It’s possible, but you’ll have no control over the dial in.
@@Sprometheus I think maybe the fines are good enough for a moka pot as that thing are less fuzzy than an espresso.
Do we do it? Yes we do. I used a paper towels this morning to grab the fines.
I purchased one and I can’t honestly say I noticed a difference.
I wonder if this could be taken as confirmation that you have a good grinder? (or, at least that is a good quality in relationship to your palate?)
@@sdjohnston67 I have a Timemore C2 grinder...not the greatest but pretty good. I used the sifter when I used my Krupps electric grinder. With the Timemore I don’t taste enough difference to warrant using it.
I don't think of the ultrafines as a "loss." I'd rather have a tray of ultrafines in a dish than in my French press and, ultimately, my coffee cup.
Do you even sift? made me laugh... Would be a great t-shirt.
Just regrind the fines for turkish coffee 😅
Haha yes we are crazy, is it necessary? Not really 🤣 I am not a barista
I used to mess about making coffee every day but in The end, I bought a decent brew grinder and a good drip coffee machine.
I now just enjoy my coffee.
From a subjective viewpoint , the attraction for me is coffee comparison . Fine tuning comes later .
What would Kaldi's goats say about this?
The beans wouldn’t even leave the cherries if they had anything to say about it.
I could see myself using this for expensive or rare coffees. Like the new Yemenia, or a Bourbon variety. But, even then, it would feel almost worse to have that amount of waste from those specialty beans. Agh!
I personally only use it for more rare coffees, and regrinding the boulders is surprisingly good at minimizing most of the waste. It’s just a the fines that have to go bye bye.
Why even come up with the assumption that only medium sized grind bits are the 'good' ones...?🤔 In Espresso for instance, fines and boulders each play an important role, resulting in the complex body of the espresso shot.
I think the point of the sifter is that you are aiming for that specific mid-grind with your grinder settings, but because grinders aren’t perfect they produce the outliers of fines and boulders in addition to the setting you have. That’s why the Kruve comes with so many filters to sieve with - so you can get rid of things on both sides of what you’re aiming for.
The goal is a uniform grind to allow even extraction throughout the entire coffee bed/puck.
Answer your question, I think it's best to actually just focus on thinking that you're boulders, and this is just a situation term to describe a size too large to extract optimally for a certain kind of coffee. In other words you're bolder or boulders are going to change depending on your type of coffee, however the concept remains the same in that they will under extract. However the reason for wanting more even grinding, or in other words more grounds of the same size, is to be able to minimize complexity due to randomness (wide spectrum of grounds), and increase intentional complexity (narrow spectrum of grounds).
i tried adding the fines back in for the last 1:30 of the brew. Made me remember why I've been taking them out. Gross
Isn’t this kind of what makes a good grinder a good grinder. It’s the consistency of ground size.
True, but... at every cracking of a coffee bean or part of a coffee bean going through the burrs, a bunch of particles shoot away, some just the right size, but many larger and many smaller. The larger ones usually (but not always) get caught and cracked again, but the smaller ones slide through the gap in the grinder. So, if one is grinding fine, most of the particles are about right or large enough to get another chance. But for coarser grinding, more too-small particles get through. I don't know the mechanics of designing a burr to cut more than it shatters, but I think this is why it's harder to get consistent coarse grind.
@@ericpmoss makes sense why conical burrs with sharp edged might have an advantage over flat cuts as far as cutting them rather they fragmenting the bean. I’m thinking of getting the Rok grinder for this reason. Have a bit more control over the speed of the burrs and heat production. Any thoughts on the Rok grinder?
Ironically sifting doesn't mean takin out da skeen 😷
To be fair. We are a little bit crazy. 😂
This is as true as it gets my friend!
I sold my kruve
Makes sense, if you didn’t use it then better to move it on to someone who will.
Or just get a grinder that fits your needs
Ah yes. The mythical perfect grinder. Rumor has it that the Loch Ness Monster has it.
You mean a more expensive one
Neither more expensive nor mythical but simply one designed for filter brewing and one for espresso. Seeing the niche's grinds in this video is already a huge difference to what I'm used for filter (fine wise)
Sprometheus, spending money so you don't have to
By the end of this video I forgot why I was even watching it... 😴
So what you’re telling us is the niche isn’t as good as everyone says?
Bought it, tried it about 10 times and never use it again. A lot of coffee wastage, a lot time wasting and no real gain in good taste. Better put more effort on better grinding.
Make turkish coffee from fines