Is it really necessary? I'm 115kg and I switched from my 19mm Axis 820mm aluminium mast to my own DIY carbon mast, medium low modulus, resin infused frum a 3-d printed core, 850mm long, tapering 17mm to 14mm and I love it. I don't think torsion needs high modulus, I did half and half 300gsm double bias Adhesive Technologies carbon with med/low modulus carbon uni 200gsm chinese carbon and a skin of 200gsm twill and I love it. The only significant torsional forces are in an impact and for the lengthways uni, it is for wingtip breaching that the carbon is really nice. On my Axis aluminium mast, a breach felt wrong, I'm too heavy and the stresses on mast, doodad, fuselage and baseplate create non returning amounts of deflection at their extremes. My carbon mast? Just springy, it feels great. I have considered the layup and I think that slightly angled unidirectional interleaving would be better than double bias. It seems like there is a competition, I think Armstrong even use army surplus utra high modulus carbon, or the high aviation grade in their premium offerings. But unless it's in wings, or you are thinning under 12mm near the bottom, is it really necessary on a mast which mostly has ballanced loadings? I make my own latest foil designs not too dissimilar to yours, also a bit like F-one SK8, similar plan view and my foils are dangerously thin at the ends with a thinning algorithm that takes acount of structural requirements, I do feel springiness in my 7.8 AR 1M span latest wing on med/low modulus carbon layup. There, I'd love to have a bit higher modulus. Anyway, respect to your foils, your designs are among the top foils that I rate design-wise to compare against my own, despite that I'm profoundly happy with my own recent designs 😉
It sounds like your DIY carbon mast setup is working really well for you, which is fantastic. Your approach to using a mix of medium-low modulus carbon and your construction technique seems to be hitting the mark in terms of performance and durability. Your observations about torsional forces and the role of high modulus carbon are insightful. Given that you've found good results with your current layup and that high modulus carbon is more commonly used in specific high-stress or thin designs, it seems like your approach is both practical and effective. The idea of using angled unidirectional fibers could indeed enhance the performance further, especially if it aligns with your specific needs. I appreciate the comparison and feedback on my designs-it's great to hear that you find them among the top in your evaluations. It’s clear that you’ve put a lot of thought into your designs and materials, and it’s always valuable to exchange ideas and experiences. Your recent designs sound impressive, and I'm glad to hear you’re happy with them.
@@peterwatkins-d9u I'm seeing a lot of manufacturers focus in on the same thing that you are, that I am. That planform with short tips and longer centre chord is awesome for winging in waves. There's a 2-d effect that stabilises at a cost of pumping efficiency in my opinion. And I discovered the Ludwig Prandtl end twisting to control tip vortices back in May 2021, published a link in kiteforums build thread back then of Albion Bowers youtube of bell curve lift theory, Bird's wing tips and the Horton Brother's delta trials of it. In 2024 most manufacturers have incorporated learnings from it. Took me until Feb 2022 to get around to coding for it and do my own trials but by then Triton and GoFoil had had a crack at it. Although my early 2022 Feb effort was quite slow, straight away I got the advantage of interpreting the real life behavior on top of the theory. Lower take off speed. Lower stall speed. Better, more centred stall characteristics. Most especially notable, higher stall angle. Since then I've made various other refinements and when I look at your wings I see a lot of the same shapes I put into mine, no doubt for the same reasons.
@@fluiditynz It’s exciting to see how our explorations are converging around similar concepts! The planform with short tips and a longer center chord is indeed proving to be very effective, especially for wave riding where stability and control are key. Your discovery of Ludwig Prandtl’s end twisting and its application to tip vortex control is fascinating. It’s impressive how you’ve taken those theoretical insights and translated them into practical design improvements. The real-world benefits you’ve observed-lower takeoff and stall speeds, better stall characteristics, and higher stall angles-are significant and clearly make a difference in performance. I appreciate the connection you’ve made between our designs and the shared goals we seem to have. It’s great to see that our approaches are aligning and that we’re both contributing to the evolution of foil design. If you have any new findings or refinements, I’d be keen to hear about them. Sharing these insights helps us all advance and innovate in our field.
Would be nice to know the cost and weight difference?
Is it really necessary? I'm 115kg and I switched from my 19mm Axis 820mm aluminium mast to my own DIY carbon mast, medium low modulus, resin infused frum a 3-d printed core, 850mm long, tapering 17mm to 14mm and I love it. I don't think torsion needs high modulus, I did half and half 300gsm double bias Adhesive Technologies carbon with med/low modulus carbon uni 200gsm chinese carbon and a skin of 200gsm twill and I love it. The only significant torsional forces are in an impact and for the lengthways uni, it is for wingtip breaching that the carbon is really nice. On my Axis aluminium mast, a breach felt wrong, I'm too heavy and the stresses on mast, doodad, fuselage and baseplate create non returning amounts of deflection at their extremes. My carbon mast? Just springy, it feels great. I have considered the layup and I think that slightly angled unidirectional interleaving would be better than double bias. It seems like there is a competition, I think Armstrong even use army surplus utra high modulus carbon, or the high aviation grade in their premium offerings. But unless it's in wings, or you are thinning under 12mm near the bottom, is it really necessary on a mast which mostly has ballanced loadings? I make my own latest foil designs not too dissimilar to yours, also a bit like F-one SK8, similar plan view and my foils are dangerously thin at the ends with a thinning algorithm that takes acount of structural requirements, I do feel springiness in my 7.8 AR 1M span latest wing on med/low modulus carbon layup. There, I'd love to have a bit higher modulus. Anyway, respect to your foils, your designs are among the top foils that I rate design-wise to compare against my own, despite that I'm profoundly happy with my own recent designs 😉
It sounds like your DIY carbon mast setup is working really well for you, which is fantastic. Your approach to using a mix of medium-low modulus carbon and your construction technique seems to be hitting the mark in terms of performance and durability. Your observations about torsional forces and the role of high modulus carbon are insightful.
Given that you've found good results with your current layup and that high modulus carbon is more commonly used in specific high-stress or thin designs, it seems like your approach is both practical and effective. The idea of using angled unidirectional fibers could indeed enhance the performance further, especially if it aligns with your specific needs.
I appreciate the comparison and feedback on my designs-it's great to hear that you find them among the top in your evaluations. It’s clear that you’ve put a lot of thought into your designs and materials, and it’s always valuable to exchange ideas and experiences. Your recent designs sound impressive, and I'm glad to hear you’re happy with them.
@@peterwatkins-d9u I'm seeing a lot of manufacturers focus in on the same thing that you are, that I am. That planform with short tips and longer centre chord is awesome for winging in waves. There's a 2-d effect that stabilises at a cost of pumping efficiency in my opinion. And I discovered the Ludwig Prandtl end twisting to control tip vortices back in May 2021, published a link in kiteforums build thread back then of Albion Bowers youtube of bell curve lift theory, Bird's wing tips and the Horton Brother's delta trials of it. In 2024 most manufacturers have incorporated learnings from it. Took me until Feb 2022 to get around to coding for it and do my own trials but by then Triton and GoFoil had had a crack at it. Although my early 2022 Feb effort was quite slow, straight away I got the advantage of interpreting the real life behavior on top of the theory. Lower take off speed. Lower stall speed. Better, more centred stall characteristics. Most especially notable, higher stall angle. Since then I've made various other refinements and when I look at your wings I see a lot of the same shapes I put into mine, no doubt for the same reasons.
@@fluiditynz It’s exciting to see how our explorations are converging around similar concepts! The planform with short tips and a longer center chord is indeed proving to be very effective, especially for wave riding where stability and control are key.
Your discovery of Ludwig Prandtl’s end twisting and its application to tip vortex control is fascinating. It’s impressive how you’ve taken those theoretical insights and translated them into practical design improvements. The real-world benefits you’ve observed-lower takeoff and stall speeds, better stall characteristics, and higher stall angles-are significant and clearly make a difference in performance.
I appreciate the connection you’ve made between our designs and the shared goals we seem to have. It’s great to see that our approaches are aligning and that we’re both contributing to the evolution of foil design. If you have any new findings or refinements, I’d be keen to hear about them. Sharing these insights helps us all advance and innovate in our field.