Curious what the results would be with a typical street cammed 302 and these 4 heads. I’ve a.ways wondered if they would respond like LS engines, using short duration, high lift cams.
170 is really large for a stock b/s 302 cid and street cam. For street cars I have better driveability with 144-150 intakes AND a 110* cam. How much time do you spend above 5,000 rpm???
@@richardholdener1727 Have you done a test on how much compression affects power output? If not that would be a very interesting test. It would also be interesting to see how much compression affects boosted power output. I know more compression equals more power but how much more and is it linear? Thanks
Honestly try finding Pontiac or cad 500 or BBF. The SBF gets more attention, not dogging just letting you know some of us are just left out. He did cover the 400m which was super cool. If you want sbf content I recommend the Aussies and Boss 302 stuff because the Windsor pattern head is the biggest downside to the sbf.
You have by far the most informative channel ive came across so far, thank you for all the hard work testing and all the info. ive been binge watching your videos for the past week. The info is awesome.
You do a great job showing, what many get wrong but most importantly. You show just how important the combination, application, rpm range, etc is. Many never learn this for years and in many cases never learn period. They get stuck believing they know everything already. Which is the quickest way to become the least intelligent person in the room. Smart people never stop learning. Now that said here's my 2 favorite heads. First the original TFS street heat heads for a mild 302-351 build. Which I still have a set that I got new in the 90s. Then for full out race. The M2 race systems Neal202's heads. Had them on a 428 sbf nitrous combination which made 840+hp N/A this was back in early 2000's with 500+ single stage of nitrous that put the car well into the 7s back then. They also worked great will a single 100mm turbo. Fun times back then.
Would love to see a compari$on of cheape$t heads cams intakes for us low buck guys in tough times. Even Elgin Mellings Pioneer etc scrape the bottom please. Thanks for all you do.
Wise choice to use the Parker Funnel Web intake. I used this on a similar sized SBF but with a set of AFR 185 heads. The intake is terrific, making great top end power with almost no loss down low. A great intake for the small block Ford's. These engines are surprisingly good in the larger sizes like the 363's.
Thank you Richard I have watched many of your vids, but this is the first time commenting. I really appreciate how you get to the point. And show the data. Ty again Mark D
I wish these videos were around back in early 90s, would have served me well and saved me money. I built my stock 302ci first with ported E7 head 1.94x1.6 vlvs and B303 cam along with all other bolton, high flow cat H and flowmaster catback, 3.73. Car was a blast much quicker/powerful than stock, this car was my daily driver and back then everyone saying you need high port velocity for street manners…blah blah blah. Kept everything the same then swapped out just heads for TW170 and WOW! Blown away at the gains I saw everywhere, traction was a serious issue now and this thing pulled fantastic from idle to new higher redline. With the “high velocity” hogged E7 i felt like power really kicked in @2200 with the B303 surprisingly that dropped to about 1800 when i installed the larger lower port velocity 170s. Learned my lesson a larger head (within reason) doesn’t affect down low or street manners and moving forward i will always install the best head that i can erring on larger side. Right before i sold the car i built a budget 302 that had stock cam and slapped on TWs, still shocked at the gains everywhere over the stock small high velocity port heads.
I love your head comparison vids. Im getting the info together for a 460 build for our 65 mustang. Ill watch any ford motor build you put out!! Keep up the good work.
That is next to impossible on a water brake dyno. Also the Dyno is not like a car with how the load is applied. It's probably more like a jet boat if I had to guess.
I seen the comments a lot on these videos, this is because as an experience engine builder myself, I am very impressed. The intro to this could not have been better said, this very misunderstood subject of personal preference. What is great for one may not be for another. Especially considering when everyone always says get this do that when someone asks what they should do, not to mention to the person asking. Before asking, try to get different ideas & experiences if possible. Maybe go to some car shows or performance shops, etc etc, & see if someone will give you different experiences, whether a 4 Cylinder twin turbo, 6 cylinder supercharged, small displacement high revving high hp V8, or a torqued stroker, or something im between, etc etc etc. Form opinions of where you like your power to be made, & then after this, the reality of where your engine will mostly be making power. Such as an engine that makes 750hp at 7k rpm, may not be better than an engine that makes 575 hp but by 2k makes 300 ft lbs of torque & climbs up to 500 or more ft lbs at peak of 4,500 to 5,000 rpm, when your car or truck barely goes over 5,500 rpm for instance.
Richard, Thanks for all the sbf info, I have been watching all your stuff. You do some great work. I have the Pro -1 195 as cast on my stock block 347 with a .543 intake/.563 exhaust 112 lsa, and 231/235@.050 (howards hydraulic roller) Rpm air gap and a quickfuel 680 carb in a 2800 pound car with 5 speed and 3.55's love driving it. Do not see a lot of Dart head tests as most ford guys go with the trick flow or afr. THANK YOU
Thank you Richard for all your hard work and putting these videos together.im a huge fan of fords ( mostly 385 series and fe stuff ) but currently own a 2006 4.8 crewcab Chevy . I’m wanted to single turbo that truck for a sleeper family wagon just to mess with some college kids. I’m learning a bunch of stuff from these tests and getting ideas for what to build when I can grab a project car ... love what you do ..thanks again .
What I take from this video is: Although heads are an important part of the equation, they have so much less effect on power production than most people think. And the "as cast" AFR 185 Enforcers I plan to use on my stock 94 5.0 will be more than enough and definitely not too much. I'd like to see this same series of tests on the same 363" smallblock with "ideal" camshafts for each pair of heads.
Richard, awesome videos and thanks for your work. I have that exact 363 shortblock but I use a custom ground Crane hydraulic roller, .629/.629 @ 226°/236° .050" I also use AFR 195cc Renegade heads. I've tested Air Gap and Victor in my application. My engine makes as much top end power, at a slightly lower RPM but more torque across the curve. My pulls are loaded at lower starting speeds. I wish your tests pulls started off idle and make more accurate "low speed" torque comparisons. With that testing, I think the smaller heads would perform as good or better and on a street application, be more responsive. Thanks for your work!
I drove a 60 over 302 with boss crank, 289 block, 289 rods, chevy pistons, file fit, world product heads, 351 cam , and slightly illegal carb at East Alabama Motor Speedway and got 7th place money. I had never sat my ass in a dirtcar before.
Outstanding stuff Richard!. Really appreciate the education. You guys helped me dyno tune my 347 a year and a half ago - and I truly appreciate the knowledge and skill it takes to do this, and do it right. Still loving my motor, (347, TF Twisted Wedge 195 heads, 444HP/436 TQ - a "square motor" ...your words...!) One thought on each of these head options - do you think there's a "sweet spot" for each head, given a matched cam combination? I'm wondering if you can get to a max combination for each. Keep the videos coming - I know it takes tons of time, but I'll devour every single one!
T Web I started with what I wanted the result to be. I wanted a flat torque curve low that lasted through the rpm range for drive ability. From there, just research and some of my own experience. The result isn’t the biggest overall HP number, but amazing torque and drive ability. I can share the recipe if you like.
I hit the like button at 19 seconds into the video. Was the compression ratio the same for all 4? Did all 4 heads have the same combustion chamber volume? The CR could be a variable that affected power. I would like to see this test on a bigger motor, say 400 inches, to see if the 220s are more appropriate for that size engine. And I would like to see a test of different compression ratios.
I'm 61, been hopping up these motors since I was 15. Went thru several die grinder doin backyard porting. Two things, cylinder heads have gotten so cheap buy a set. The only reason you'd use an 8.2 deck block is a 9.5 deck won't fit without surgery!! You're gonna get the heads anyway!! Just build a cheap 357 and have some fun!
Shouldn't that be 8.5 deck? I remember in the late 70s early 80s people saying I have 289 hipo heads. I have a 82 mustang GT bought it in 88. First thing I did bought a junkyard 351w, dart senior iron heads, comp roller cam, Edelbrock intake and Holley 750. That 4 speed lasted about a week. Put in a junkyard t5 , junkyard 373s out of a Ford ranger for the 7.5 rear end. Switch to ranger rotors and axles for 5 lug. That car was a blast never took it to the track, but it beat it's a lot of low 12 second cars on the street.
With a cam choice I didn't even need to see the video to know the outcome. That particular cam is for a lot of RPM and massive air flow. For the track this is a great build. But for drivability not much fun. The smaller head with the right cam intake carburetor matched, would make a fine little driver-friendly toy to play with
Love the information, but there is a fan in the background. Love your channel, I have learned so much! Still trying to understand centrifugal super chargers vs. Turbo. How do they compare on small displacement vs large displacement.
If it's possible to change the display settings so that when you add a new dyno result it doesn't change the colors of all the previous results that would make it easier/quicker to digest the new information. If it's not something that's easy to change,, no biggie.
R.H. ………….almost a herculean task ??? but I still have the MM&FF with the 3 groups of 10 , still killing it 17 years later !!!!! thanks lots bad MAN !!!!!!!
Hello Richard like say thanks for the video. Wow that's a lot of cam lift.The piston must have a lot of valve relief to take that much lift . What was the heads flowing at ? Because why would you need that much valve lift in the cam if the heads doesn't flow that high. And you would of thought the RPMs would have been higher with that duration. But second thought if it's a solid roller the valve gap would change the rpm
Great video. I have the 195's on my 408, not nearly as much cam, but it make just north of 510hp at 5600 rpm. Thinking I should go to either the 210 or 220 heads, but my engine builder thought the 220 would be too much. I will have to show him the video. Keep on making these videos, hopefully one with a 408 and cyl head comp.
Was that power at the crank or at the wheels? I also have a 408 with the 195 heads and a .600 lift cam and 10.5:1 compression. Was wondering about how much power my set up was making. Never had my motor dyno’d
Have you ever run a test with the CLEVOR setup? It looks like Edelbrock is making the manifolds for it these days. Just curious, ought to be some good data there. Cheers!
Maybe you should do the same test on a bigger stroker, maybe a 427. Then I believe you would see the changes in the power curves you were talking about. I have the 210cc CNC Pro1s on my 417" Windsor stroker with quite a bit bigger solid roller cam. Never had it on a dyno, but it is pretty stout in my 79 Mercury Zephyr pro street car.
Port volume seems like a strange metric to me, useful to compare otherwise identical heads, but meaningless in absolute terms. Thanks again for sharing so much.
I have a 351 Cleveland. After watching this I’m leaning more towards trickflow 225 heads vs the 195 heads. What do you guys think? Obviously this video is fantastic and answers a lot of questions . I can use some input. What would u guys do?
Low RPM power may be similar among the different heads at WOT but I'll bet throttle response of the smaller heads at lower/mid RPMs is better than the larger heads. This is important to street driven machines..
What about these heads ran on something with a more streetable camshaft, for something that the everyday guy would have in his hot rod, I feel like those are the guys who tend to put larger heads on a more mild set-ups, as always, another awesome video!!
Would love to see that head test on a 4.125 bore , 4 inch stroke 9.5 deck. Either way, thank you. Nice to see ford stuff in a world inundated with ls tests.
Edaward Tripp I imagine you could achieve a very similar power/ci number with a cam change. I'd love to see it done with a production 9.5 deck using an off the shelf rotating assembly. I bet the same top end would make 600+ and more low end, while saving a ton of $ on the short block versus the 363
Nice tests Richard, would like to see more head port changes and it's effect - one you hear is throat % to valve 90-91% is best go to 93% "now you've just ruined the head " can't see it myself Also would the drip in TQ in the midrange be function of the camshaft specs ? I see alot of tests of older engines using tight lsa like your test but most LS tests are more in 112-114 lsa range - why is that ? - cam grinders stuck in 80's for the older engines ?
Would love to see a similar test on a 302. This test showed that you didn’t put “too much” head on the engine. How much is too much on a 302? Is there such thing?
It’s been done several times with MM&FF. It depends on what you are doing. If it’s just a mild NA street build a 170cc head is plenty adequate. If you planning an all out NA race engine with solid lifters, big cam and 9000 plus rpms then a CNC machined 205s would be better choice. Cam heads and intake must work together. So many guys out there that miss match parts. Several years ago I street raced a guy that put roller rockers valve springs and a aftermarket cam in his foxbody. My foxbody was bone stock other than I bumped up the timing to 14 degrees and took the air silencer out. I blew his doors off in the 1/4. His car lost a lot of torque down low. Car sounded good with the choppy idle. But it was a pig till 3500rpms. Good example of miss matched parts. Even with the cam power would fall sharply after 5500 rpms. The reason? Stock heads and stock long runner intake was not designed to provide adequate air beyond 5500 rpms when the cam shaft was designed to make power all the way to 6500rpms. After riding in his car I could feel how much torque the car lost compared to mine down low. The guy was pretty bummed out that he lost to a basically stock car. But we both learned a lesson from it.
Liked the video! Soon I'm going to assemble my 357 Windsor for my 94 flairside F150. I have a set of professionally ported 289 hypo heads with big valves, but I also have a set of new budget aluminum heads! I going with the aluminum just for the detonation issue. The heads are 60cc if I remember! The high energy 274 seems to work really well on your videos, but in your opinion will it be to much for that pig with 3.55s and my TCI c4?? I just got all this stuff lying round! I don't want to go steeper than 3.73's, I'm not buying an AOD! It's just a Sunday afternoon ride on country roads and remembered the old man! I'm 62!
@@richardholdener1727 thanks, 351 Windsors have fallen outta favor lately! Got that tall 9.5" deck, nearly 6" connecting rod for a good rod/stroke ratio, bell housing is the same! If only they had used the same crank as the Cleveland and put a good head on it!
@Richard What do you think of a fresh rebuilt 306 10:1 compression, x303 cam, Holley hi-ram intake with sequential EFI system, AFR 185cc heads with 61cc chambers, roller rockers and Mallory ignition? Also threw in a main girdle and windage tray at it. Wondering what this combination would make... The X-cam is all I had, I hear there are better cams? not sure though, any recommendations?
Interesting. 🤔. I wonder if these heads would perform the same if the vehicle in question was used primarily in low gear at part throttle? (Rock crawler).
It would be interesting to score the power output over the entire curve and be able to compare those results from test to test to test and engine to engine. Something like Engine Masters does.
I think the big lift cam is killing the smaller heads. I also think a lift in the .5?? Lift area would be more practical to all 4 heads with the exception of all out drag racing
@richard holdener did you ever do the dr.j ported speed master A3 heads on a small motor? That is a ton of head on no cubes. Is it a total turd below 4k and a monster out to 8500? I know you ran them on the 400m but that's alot more motor to soak up those lazy sewer size heads. I have a set sitting here ported and flowed over 400 cfm. But the mind wonders what if.
@@richardholdener1727 Did you see that Engine masters 32v 5.4 based stroker that had 32 exhaust pipes, 2 for every cylinder? It produced some crazy power and hotrod wrote some about it
Could you take the time to also do part throttle runs, say 1/3 and 2/3. That ought to give some indication on tip-in driveability of these combinations
Are you not seeing much a difference between the 210 and the 220 CNC heads because you are approaching the max efficiency for a NA pump gas engine? Or at least for the compression ratio that you are using? What is the CR by the way. If you could please include that information in your builds it would be much appreciated. Looking up the Dart Pro 1 20 degree series the flow numbers are 261 CFM at 0.600 (170cc). 285 CFM at 0.600/288 CFM at 0.700(190cc), 305 CFM at 0.600 (210cc CNC), 325 CFM at 0.700 (225cc CNC).
Great work Richard! A few questions; fuel run, engine CR, step headers and primary lengths, and why the output power drop/nosing over at the top end-more intake/carb? Any future TR intake planned? Thank you.
OK when you do the 351 turbo late model engine you had to notch the Pistons with aluminum heads and cam what head and cam combination would you recommend for that that you wouldn’t have to notch pistons and still achieve 1000 with a turbo.
I’d be interested to see this comparison on the 302. Or a 350 for that matter. I would assume the large solid cam has a lot to do with the bigger heads not losing power down low but like you said you don’t know till you test it
Can the diffrense be because of ascast vs cnc? Is there any chans to compere 2 cylinderheads with same specs, 1 ascast and 1 cnc-ported? Keep up the good dynoing!
Be neat to see how the old school stuff stacks up to the new stuff. Old high ports, twisted wedge, Canfields 192cc ( the ones everyone says crack... which mine are holding up fine on my street car), gt40X, etc..
Would like to see this test with daily driver intake and cam. Might show the point where a head is too big. Also why don't we see number below 3000rpm? Im interested in seeing off the line power, for street driving or mid range for towing. Love the NOS!!!OMG!!!!
Definitely seems like there isn’t much of a need for monster heads unless you are going to run past 6000 or 6500. Very interesting. I love these tests. I think engine power did a similar test with a 410 but with afr 165 185 and 205 all Cnc. Very similar results but they had a very small cam shaft. I think about it like the 170 plus two pounds is like the 220 lol. Thanks
Good heads on a 302 that eventually would go on a stroker seems like the most common way people would do it. Budget builders usually just start improving what they already have.
Building a Sbf Svo 351 408ci might go larger ci.. I found a set of tf high ports, 225 CNC used. I was thinking about using a valley Girdle and main girdle? What's you take wanna build a nice 351 Windsor Base motor. Any tips? What lift springs should I run?
Richard, with a 331, 10:1, Chinese knock off dart pro 1 195cc clone, XE270HR, GT40 tubular manifold, shorty headers. Engine made 315whp, 360-370 crank. Is the gt40 intake holding me back?
Thumbs up for the same test on a 302.👍
Agree
Can you test it with different heads though. How about the AFR heads
Yeah I’d love to see the same head test done on a 302 to see how the smaller airflow requirement effects how the heads work!
I did that
@@richardholdener1727 Upload!!! 🤪
Curious what the results would be with a typical street cammed 302 and these 4 heads. I’ve a.ways wondered if they would respond like LS engines, using short duration, high lift cams.
170 is really large for a stock b/s 302 cid and street cam. For street cars I have better driveability with 144-150 intakes AND a 110* cam.
How much time do you spend above 5,000 rpm???
@@richardholdener1727 Have you done a test on how much compression affects power output? If not that would be a very interesting test. It would also be interesting to see how much compression affects boosted power output. I know more compression equals more power but how much more and is it linear? Thanks
Not enough SBF stuff on youtube. Thank you for this! More head shoot-outs!! Somebody should test a bunch of the ebay cheapos just for yucks.
I ran Speedmaster heads
Honestly try finding Pontiac or cad 500 or BBF. The SBF gets more attention, not dogging just letting you know some of us are just left out. He did cover the 400m which was super cool. If you want sbf content I recommend the Aussies and Boss 302 stuff because the Windsor pattern head is the biggest downside to the sbf.
@@compted10 I will agree that the canted valve stuff is much better however it is just not as common. I have to think that's due to cost.
@@compted10 If you're interested, Richard dynoed a BBF less than a week ago.
@@richardholdener1727 I missed it did they perform good
You are doing Hotrod Gods work. Keep it up, Rich. The subs are coming and you deserve so many more.
The Gods of Internal Combustion certainly do smile upon Richard.
Comparing two heads from the same manufacturer? Ok boomer.
@@DeliriumTremensTWU
Man...you really missed the point on this video bud.
Your killing it with the sbf videos by far the best channel on UA-cam
Thank you for the ford content, interesting results.
You have by far the most informative channel ive came across so far, thank you for all the hard work testing and all the info. ive been binge watching your videos for the past week. The info is awesome.
Your videos are awesome! You are helping the community immensely! I'm glad to see all engines represented.
Richard, you are easily the HARDEST WORKING guy on youtube, or on the planet.. wow thanks for all your hard work to teach me !!
I absolutely love these videos, please don't ever stop what you are doing.
You do a great job showing, what many get wrong but most importantly. You show just how important the combination, application, rpm range, etc is. Many never learn this for years and in many cases never learn period. They get stuck believing they know everything already. Which is the quickest way to become the least intelligent person in the room. Smart people never stop learning.
Now that said here's my 2 favorite heads. First the original TFS street heat heads for a mild 302-351 build. Which I still have a set that I got new in the 90s. Then for full out race. The M2 race systems Neal202's heads. Had them on a 428 sbf nitrous combination which made 840+hp N/A this was back in early 2000's with 500+ single stage of nitrous that put the car well into the 7s back then. They also worked great will a single 100mm turbo. Fun times back then.
Would love to see a compari$on of cheape$t heads cams intakes for us low buck guys in tough times. Even Elgin Mellings Pioneer etc scrape the bottom please. Thanks for all you do.
Let's go crazy and see if you can actually bolt an LS head to a 302 and make it work? You wanna see some views lol?
This was an awesome test. Let’s see it on the 302!!!! And a intake test on both, the 363 and the 302!!!! Thanks Richard, love these videos!
Wise choice to use the Parker Funnel Web intake. I used this on a similar sized SBF but with a set of AFR 185 heads. The intake is terrific, making great top end power with almost no loss down low. A great intake for the small block Ford's. These engines are surprisingly good in the larger sizes like the 363's.
Killing me with these high information uploads. I have to watch these videos a couple times to completely absorb everything.
Thanks for doing the videos Richard. I try to watch them all. I have learned a lot from them.
Cool! Did not see that coming. Should be some interesting Non cookie-cutter builds coming out this summer🏎 Thanks for sharing Richard!👊
Thank you Richard
I have watched many of your vids, but this is the first time commenting.
I really appreciate how you get to the point.
And show the data.
Ty again
Mark D
You are very welcome
I wish these videos were around back in early 90s, would have served me well and saved me money. I built my stock 302ci first with ported E7 head 1.94x1.6 vlvs and B303 cam along with all other bolton, high flow cat H and flowmaster catback, 3.73. Car was a blast much quicker/powerful than stock, this car was my daily driver and back then everyone saying you need high port velocity for street manners…blah blah blah. Kept everything the same then swapped out just heads for TW170 and WOW! Blown away at the gains I saw everywhere, traction was a serious issue now and this thing pulled fantastic from idle to new higher redline. With the “high velocity” hogged E7 i felt like power really kicked in @2200 with the B303 surprisingly that dropped to about 1800 when i installed the larger lower port velocity 170s. Learned my lesson a larger head (within reason) doesn’t affect down low or street manners and moving forward i will always install the best head that i can erring on larger side. Right before i sold the car i built a budget 302 that had stock cam and slapped on TWs, still shocked at the gains everywhere over the stock small high velocity port heads.
I love your head comparison vids. Im getting the info together for a 460 build for our 65 mustang. Ill watch any ford motor build you put out!! Keep up the good work.
Good data right there that can be applied to any engine. Thanks for the tests.
Would be interesting to see some part-throttle and tip-in performance between some of these head and intake combos.
That is next to impossible on a water brake dyno. Also the Dyno is not like a car with how the load is applied. It's probably more like a jet boat if I had to guess.
tip in doesn't happen on the engine dyno
Part throttle?? Naah none.
NO PREP
👍👍👍👍
Exactly.
We dontbrace nor drive dynos !!!😁😁😁
That's possible on a chassis dyno , but it's no fun wrenching a bunch of heads on and off an engine in a car usually.
I seen the comments a lot on these videos, this is because as an experience engine builder myself, I am very impressed. The intro to this could not have been better said, this very misunderstood subject of personal preference. What is great for one may not be for another. Especially considering when everyone always says get this do that when someone asks what they should do, not to mention to the person asking. Before asking, try to get different ideas & experiences if possible. Maybe go to some car shows or performance shops, etc etc, & see if someone will give you different experiences, whether a 4 Cylinder twin turbo, 6 cylinder supercharged, small displacement high revving high hp V8, or a torqued stroker, or something im between, etc etc etc. Form opinions of where you like your power to be made, & then after this, the reality of where your engine will mostly be making power. Such as an engine that makes 750hp at 7k rpm, may not be better than an engine that makes 575 hp but by 2k makes 300 ft lbs of torque & climbs up to 500 or more ft lbs at peak of 4,500 to 5,000 rpm, when your car or truck barely goes over 5,500 rpm for instance.
Richard, Thanks for all the sbf info, I have been watching all your stuff. You do some great work. I have the Pro -1 195 as cast on my stock block 347 with a .543 intake/.563 exhaust 112 lsa, and 231/235@.050 (howards hydraulic roller) Rpm air gap and a quickfuel 680 carb in a 2800 pound car with 5 speed and 3.55's love driving it. Do not see a lot of Dart head tests as most ford guys go with the trick flow or afr. THANK YOU
Thank you Richard for all your hard work and putting these videos together.im a huge fan of fords ( mostly 385 series and fe stuff ) but currently own a 2006 4.8 crewcab Chevy . I’m wanted to single turbo that truck for a sleeper family wagon just to mess with some college kids. I’m learning a bunch of stuff from these tests and getting ideas for what to build when I can grab a project car ... love what you do ..thanks again .
This information helps the do it yourself car guy out a lot. Thanks man!
Very cool. I've been waiting for this video
What I take from this video is: Although heads are an important part of the equation, they have so much less effect on power production than most people think. And the "as cast" AFR 185 Enforcers I plan to use on my stock 94 5.0 will be more than enough and definitely not too much.
I'd like to see this same series of tests on the same 363" smallblock with "ideal" camshafts for each pair of heads.
Always teasing me talking about those combos you've done but might do a video on later
54k subscribers! Were getting that exponential growth now!
Choo choo for the hype train
Richard, awesome videos and thanks for your work.
I have that exact 363 shortblock but I use a custom ground Crane hydraulic roller,
.629/.629 @ 226°/236° .050"
I also use AFR 195cc Renegade heads.
I've tested Air Gap and Victor in my application.
My engine makes as much top end power, at a slightly lower RPM but more torque across the curve.
My pulls are loaded at lower starting speeds. I wish your tests pulls started off idle and make more accurate "low speed" torque comparisons.
With that testing, I think the smaller heads would perform as good or better and on a street application, be more responsive.
Thanks for your work!
What a great comparison. On a street driven rpm car you couldn't go wrong with any head you picked.
Man, I appreciate your work. This info would be so expensive to gather by trial and error
Always great content from holdener!
I drove a 60 over 302 with boss crank, 289 block, 289 rods, chevy pistons, file fit, world product heads, 351 cam , and slightly illegal carb at East Alabama Motor Speedway and got 7th place money. I had never sat my ass in a dirtcar before.
Outstanding stuff Richard!. Really appreciate the education. You guys helped me dyno tune my 347 a year and a half ago - and I truly appreciate the knowledge and skill it takes to do this, and do it right. Still loving my motor, (347, TF Twisted Wedge 195 heads, 444HP/436 TQ - a "square motor" ...your words...!) One thought on each of these head options - do you think there's a "sweet spot" for each head, given a matched cam combination? I'm wondering if you can get to a max combination for each.
Keep the videos coming - I know it takes tons of time, but I'll devour every single one!
T Web I started with what I wanted the result to be. I wanted a flat torque curve low that lasted through the rpm range for drive ability. From there, just research and some of my own experience. The result isn’t the biggest overall HP number, but amazing torque and drive ability. I can share the recipe if you like.
Amazing. Going into this I had pinned the 195s to be best overall under the curve. Wrong answer Johnny!
Love this channel!!! Pure gearhead porn.
Cool test. Can’t wait to see the 302 video.
I hit the like button at 19 seconds into the video. Was the compression ratio the same for all 4? Did all 4 heads have the same combustion chamber volume? The CR could be a variable that affected power. I would like to see this test on a bigger motor, say 400 inches, to see if the 220s are more appropriate for that size engine. And I would like to see a test of different compression ratios.
I'm 61, been hopping up these motors since I was 15. Went thru several die grinder doin backyard porting. Two things, cylinder heads have gotten so cheap buy a set. The only reason you'd use an 8.2 deck block is a 9.5 deck won't fit without surgery!! You're gonna get the heads anyway!! Just build a cheap 357 and have some fun!
Shouldn't that be 8.5 deck? I remember in the late 70s early 80s people saying I have 289 hipo heads. I have a 82 mustang GT bought it in 88. First thing I did bought a junkyard 351w, dart senior iron heads, comp roller cam, Edelbrock intake and Holley 750. That 4 speed lasted about a week. Put in a junkyard t5 , junkyard 373s out of a Ford ranger for the 7.5 rear end. Switch to ranger rotors and axles for 5 lug. That car was a blast never took it to the track, but it beat it's a lot of low 12 second cars on the street.
good test! sbf always has a special place in my heart, I have a 366ci in my ol 89 coupe as a matter of fact!
With a cam choice I didn't even need to see the video to know the outcome. That particular cam is for a lot of RPM and massive air flow. For the track this is a great build. But for drivability not much fun. The smaller head with the right cam intake carburetor matched, would make a fine little driver-friendly toy to play with
Love the information, but there is a fan in the background. Love your channel, I have learned so much! Still trying to understand centrifugal super chargers vs. Turbo. How do they compare on small displacement vs large displacement.
If it's possible to change the display settings so that when you add a new dyno result it doesn't change the colors of all the previous results that would make it easier/quicker to digest the new information. If it's not something that's easy to change,, no biggie.
R.H. ………….almost a herculean task ??? but I still have the MM&FF with the 3 groups of 10 , still killing it 17 years later !!!!! thanks lots bad MAN !!!!!!!
I'm going to do that Ultimate Guide in video for too
This is great, real world information. Thanks Richard
Glad you enjoyed it
Hello Richard like say thanks for the video. Wow that's a lot of cam lift.The piston must have a lot of valve relief to take that much lift . What was the heads flowing at ? Because why would you need that much valve lift in the cam if the heads doesn't flow that high. And you would of thought the RPMs would have been higher with that duration. But second thought if it's a solid roller the valve gap would change the rpm
Good video, pretty much found the diminishing return on the heads.
Great video. I have the 195's on my 408, not nearly as much cam, but it make just north of 510hp at 5600 rpm. Thinking I should go to either the 210 or 220 heads, but my engine builder thought the 220 would be too much. I will have to show him the video. Keep on making these videos, hopefully one with a 408 and cyl head comp.
Was that power at the crank or at the wheels? I also have a 408 with the 195 heads and a .600 lift cam and 10.5:1 compression. Was wondering about how much power my set up was making. Never had my motor dyno’d
Have you ever run a test with the CLEVOR setup? It looks like Edelbrock is making the manifolds for it these days. Just curious, ought to be some good data there.
Cheers!
Love the Ford stuff! Bring on the 302
Maybe you should do the same test on a bigger stroker, maybe a 427. Then I believe you would see the changes in the power curves you were talking about. I have the 210cc CNC Pro1s on my 417" Windsor stroker with quite a bit bigger solid roller cam. Never had it on a dyno, but it is pretty stout in my 79 Mercury Zephyr pro street car.
Port volume seems like a strange metric to me, useful to compare otherwise identical heads, but meaningless in absolute terms. Thanks again for sharing so much.
the heads are advertised by manufacturers as such
I have a 351 Cleveland. After watching this I’m leaning more towards trickflow 225 heads vs the 195 heads. What do you guys think? Obviously this video is fantastic and answers a lot of questions . I can use some input. What would u guys do?
Low RPM power may be similar among the different heads at WOT but I'll bet throttle response of the smaller heads at lower/mid RPMs is better than the larger heads. This is important to street driven machines..
This is one hellava awesome channel!!! New subscriber here. Thanks for all you do. 🇺🇸👍🏼😃
Thank you great test. Thank you for the SB Ford tests.
Awesome info! Could you tell me what the Compression ratio was on the 220 head when you tested?
Great video,really enjoy these myth buster style videos. Would definitely like to see the same test on the 302.
What about these heads ran on something with a more streetable camshaft, for something that the everyday guy would have in his hot rod, I feel like those are the guys who tend to put larger heads on a more mild set-ups, as always, another awesome video!!
look at the humble LS3-race head on a stock motor
Would love to see that head test on a 4.125 bore , 4 inch stroke 9.5 deck. Either way, thank you. Nice to see ford stuff in a world inundated with ls tests.
Edaward Tripp I imagine you could achieve a very similar power/ci number with a cam change. I'd love to see it done with a production 9.5 deck using an off the shelf rotating assembly. I bet the same top end would make 600+ and more low end, while saving a ton of $ on the short block versus the 363
Nice tests Richard, would like to see more head port changes and it's effect - one you hear is throat % to valve 90-91% is best go to 93% "now you've just ruined the head " can't see it myself
Also would the drip in TQ in the midrange be function of the camshaft specs ? I see alot of tests of older engines using tight lsa like your test but most LS tests are more in 112-114 lsa range - why is that ? - cam grinders stuck in 80's for the older engines ?
tighter lsa can add power-but hurt drivability and idle
I love the Ford stuff. Keep it coming!
Would love to see a similar test on a 302. This test showed that you didn’t put “too much” head on the engine. How much is too much on a 302? Is there such thing?
It’s been done several times with MM&FF. It depends on what you are doing. If it’s just a mild NA street build a 170cc head is plenty adequate. If you planning an all out NA race engine with solid lifters, big cam and 9000 plus rpms then a CNC machined 205s would be better choice. Cam heads and intake must work together. So many guys out there that miss match parts. Several years ago I street raced a guy that put roller rockers valve springs and a aftermarket cam in his foxbody. My foxbody was bone stock other than I bumped up the timing to 14 degrees and took the air silencer out. I blew his doors off in the 1/4. His car lost a lot of torque down low. Car sounded good with the choppy idle. But it was a pig till 3500rpms. Good example of miss matched parts. Even with the cam power would fall sharply after 5500 rpms. The reason? Stock heads and stock long runner intake was not designed to provide adequate air beyond 5500 rpms when the cam shaft was designed to make power all the way to 6500rpms. After riding in his car I could feel how much torque the car lost compared to mine down low. The guy was pretty bummed out that he lost to a basically stock car. But we both learned a lesson from it.
The Goldilocks mystery...Flow style.
I’m just here learning, pay me no mind.
Liked the video! Soon I'm going to assemble my 357 Windsor for my 94 flairside F150. I have a set of professionally ported 289 hypo heads with big valves, but I also have a set of new budget aluminum heads! I going with the aluminum just for the detonation issue. The heads are 60cc if I remember! The high energy 274 seems to work really well on your videos, but in your opinion will it be to much for that pig with 3.55s and my TCI c4?? I just got all this stuff lying round! I don't want to go steeper than 3.73's, I'm not buying an AOD! It's just a Sunday afternoon ride on country roads and remembered the old man! I'm 62!
IT WILL WORK
@@richardholdener1727 thanks, 351 Windsors have fallen outta favor lately! Got that tall 9.5" deck, nearly 6" connecting rod for a good rod/stroke ratio, bell housing is the same! If only they had used the same crank as the Cleveland and put a good head on it!
Put the biggest head on it and shoot gas on it till it can catch its breath!! It'll kick the training wheels off from there!
Yeah, the same test on a 302 would be sweet. Could you get power #s at lower rpm too? For the people into off-roading, cruising, and towing.
We need to know
@Richard What do you think of a fresh rebuilt 306 10:1 compression, x303 cam, Holley hi-ram intake with sequential EFI system, AFR 185cc heads with 61cc chambers, roller rockers and Mallory ignition? Also threw in a main girdle and windage tray at it. Wondering what this combination would make... The X-cam is all I had, I hear there are better cams? not sure though, any recommendations?
Awesome content! Love this channel!
Interesting. 🤔. I wonder if these heads would perform the same if the vehicle in question was used primarily in low gear at part throttle? (Rock crawler).
It would be interesting to score the power output over the entire curve and be able to compare those results from test to test to test and engine to engine. Something like Engine Masters does.
not sure I understand what you are asking for
I think the big lift cam is killing the smaller heads. I also think a lift in the .5?? Lift area would be more practical to all 4 heads with the exception of all out drag racing
Could you do a boss 302 and 351 clevor build? But test them with the windsor/ stock heads first?
Thanks for Doing more ford stuff!!!!
@richard holdener did you ever do the dr.j ported speed master A3 heads on a small motor? That is a ton of head on no cubes. Is it a total turd below 4k and a monster out to 8500? I know you ran them on the 400m but that's alot more motor to soak up those lazy sewer size heads. I have a set sitting here ported and flowed over 400 cfm. But the mind wonders what if.
I have not-but look at LS3 heads-they work
Now i know what heads i will be buying to put on my 347 .. thanks for the info...
That 363 is a sweet little setup. How did the ports of the intake match up as you go up in size of the heads?
would love to see this test but measuring up the dart heads vs. AFR heads :)
Honest just find some third party flow bench data, then use this as a base line. It will get you a rough idea since no 2 engines will dyno the same.
the AFR heads are impressive
Fords B 4v heads have a combined intake port volume that exceeds any other production 4.6 4v heads. I believe its a combined 214cc of intake port!
individual ports don't act the same
@@richardholdener1727 Did you see that Engine masters 32v 5.4 based stroker that had 32 exhaust pipes, 2 for every cylinder? It produced some crazy power and hotrod wrote some about it
Thanks for the work and interesting results.
Could you take the time to also do part throttle runs, say 1/3 and 2/3. That ought to give some indication on tip-in driveability of these combinations
Are you not seeing much a difference between the 210 and the 220 CNC heads because you are approaching the max efficiency for a NA pump gas engine? Or at least for the compression ratio that you are using? What is the CR by the way. If you could please include that information in your builds it would be much appreciated. Looking up the Dart Pro 1 20 degree series the flow numbers are 261 CFM at 0.600 (170cc). 285 CFM at 0.600/288 CFM at 0.700(190cc), 305 CFM at 0.600 (210cc CNC), 325 CFM at 0.700 (225cc CNC).
Great work once again Richard. Would you have the cam specs for this test? Thanks in advance and keep that dyno rolling!
Great work Richard! A few questions; fuel run, engine CR, step headers and primary lengths, and why the output power drop/nosing over at the top end-more intake/carb? Any future TR intake planned? Thank you.
Very handy info, great clip.
OK when you do the 351 turbo late model engine you had to notch the Pistons with aluminum heads and cam what head and cam combination would you recommend for that that you wouldn’t have to notch pistons and still achieve 1000 with a turbo.
Great video how much compression has his engine got
Another great comparison. What was the compression on it? How much do you think a high port would pick up over the dart head?
not sure it would over the 220
I’d be interested to see this comparison on the 302. Or a 350 for that matter. I would assume the large solid cam has a lot to do with the bigger heads not losing power down low but like you said you don’t know till you test it
Can the diffrense be because of ascast vs cnc? Is there any chans to compere 2 cylinderheads with same specs, 1 ascast and 1 cnc-ported? Keep up the good dynoing!
Be neat to see how the old school stuff stacks up to the new stuff. Old high ports, twisted wedge, Canfields 192cc ( the ones everyone says crack... which mine are holding up fine on my street car), gt40X, etc..
With the 363 the 210 heads are about perfect. With a 408-427 obviously the 220 heads would make more without a loss of torque with the added cubes.
Would like to see this test with daily driver intake and cam. Might show the point where a head is too big. Also why don't we see number below 3000rpm? Im interested in seeing off the line power, for street driving or mid range for towing.
Love the NOS!!!OMG!!!!
Engine dyno wont load much under 3000 rpm. A chassis dyno will.
Really curious about the 302 test now.
Definitely seems like there isn’t much of a need for monster heads unless you are going to run past 6000 or 6500. Very interesting. I love these tests. I think engine power did a similar test with a 410 but with afr 165 185 and 205 all Cnc. Very similar results but they had a very small cam shaft. I think about it like the 170 plus two pounds is like the 220 lol. Thanks
Good heads on a 302 that eventually would go on a stroker seems like the most common way people would do it. Budget builders usually just start improving what they already have.
Building a Sbf Svo 351 408ci might go larger ci.. I found a set of tf high ports, 225 CNC used. I was thinking about using a valley Girdle and main girdle? What's you take wanna build a nice 351 Windsor Base motor. Any tips? What lift springs should I run?
please see the 408 video
Nice very nice. Rich was that stroker originally a 351W ? Or a 351C or ??
It is 302-based, but with a Dart block that has a 4.125 bore
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you sir.
Seems like you ran out of camshaft by the time you put on the 225cc heads which might explain the limited power gains over the 210cc heads.
Richard, with a 331, 10:1, Chinese knock off dart pro 1 195cc clone, XE270HR, GT40 tubular manifold, shorty headers. Engine made 315whp, 360-370 crank.
Is the gt40 intake holding me back?
yes
@@richardholdener1727 what’s a good option for this combo?