I don't know how many will make it to your comment, but I thank you for sharing it. There was a steep learning curve in the Civil War, and I'm not sure it couldn't be avoided.
Tellittothe Democrat snowflakeswhio are cryingthemselvesto sleepover losing Kennedy's seatonthe Supreme Court!Allthose seats belong the American people. Whoever gets to sit-in them are only borrowing public property!
@@cedricgist7614 Meade was reprimanded but not demoted; he kept the Army of the Potomac and instead Grant was elevated over him to top commander of the armed forces. The generals before Meade were not so lucky. Lincoln also knew Grant was aggressive enough to rip the South apart and shorten the war, unlike more conservative generals who went battle by battle, Napoleon style.
Meade was regarded by Grant as a fine officer (he kept the command of the Army of the Potomac) but Grant was just like Ike in WWII - he had an overall strategic and politic view of the war, could earn the respect of his men, officers and politicians alike, and sorrounded himself with the best oficers he had to get to do the things needed done. That does count as being a great general.
Grant also fought and won important battles such as Ft's Henry and Donelson and Vicksburg, so I do not agree with you, he was also a great field commander.
"Wants to know what kind of Whiskey you drink, so he can buy the other Generals the same kind", talk about a compliment, it doesn't get any better than that! Thanks for sharing. Best Wishes & Blessings. Keith Noneya
@@bulow453 there is enough evidence that he sure did like a drink so it is very possible but we will never know how pervasive or not it was. Although we can all agree winning the war drunk would be quite something!
There were no cigarette "packs' in those old days. You rolled your own. 5 packs x 20 cigs = 100 cigs. D'ya think Lincoln rolled a hundo tobaccy refers a day? He had a country to run, man.
Grant would never have said of Lee that "He's the best soldier on either side." He didn't have a high opinion of Lee. This is what he actually had to say about him: "I never ranked Lee as highly as some others of the army -- that is to say, I never had as much anxiety when he was in my front as when Joe Johnston was in my front." Look it up if you don't believe me.
Yes you are correct. I was going to state the same thing if you had not. What they do in these retellings is continue the myth of Lee's Generalship created by the "Lost Cause" historians who dominated those who wrote on the Civil war. They also helped to perpetuate the perspective that Grant was a drunk.
@@codyking4848 Joe Johnston was also one of the few Confederate generals who thought as Grant did in strategic terms. While Lee, Forrest, Hood and Jackson were obsessed with defending lines on a map, Johnston understood that when you're in an unfair fight you sometimes have to give ground and pick your fights carefully. Compare that with Lee's obsession with holding on to Richmond at all costs, and you understand why Johnston was scathing in his criticism of Lee. No wonder Grant respected Johnston, they were two men cut from the same cloth.
The entire scene here with Grant is total cringe to anyone who reads Civil War history in any detail. Grant was shy, diffident, and considerate of the feelings of others to a fault. And under no circumstances would he have treated orders from Lincoln as a request that he could deign to fulfill if he felt like it. And the acting was almost as bad as the fake beard.
@@icecoldpolitics8890 McClellan was the anti-Grant. An egomanic who thought wishful thinking won battles. If Grant had been in charge when that copy of Lee's orders was found prior to Antietam, the Army of Northern Virginia would most probably have been destroyed.
@@icecoldpolitics8890 Indeed. It's pretty amusing that Grant in 61 went to see McClellan to ask for a commission and he didn't bother to even interview him! Even funnier that Grant's victories caused the totally undeserving Halleck to be promoted above McClellan in 62!
Neil Pemberton I feel like Halleck wasn’t the perfect guy for the job but McClellan was the absolute worst being so cautious that he would let the enemy reinforce while his over whelmingly stronger army sat there doing nothing.
The Army of the Potomac WAS exhausted. Every one of its corps had engaged. All of its lead divisions were shot out. The artillery was just about out of ammunition until resupply came up and the infantry nearly so. Even the cavalry reported their horses as nearly played out and requiring rest. And I say this as a historian who has read the unit returns that were reported to Meade. I understand Lincoln's frustration with his generals in July '63. None of the parade of them had particularly distinguished themselves in two solid years of war. But in all fairness, this was a case of an officer accurately reporting the state of his forces to political masters who didn't want to hear it. Meade could be stodgy, that's very true, but he didn't falsify reports or 'take the counsel of his fears' the way MacClellan did.
Also this is totally inaccurate in the mini series. Lincoln did not replace Meade with Grant. At the time, Grant became overall commander of all troops west of the Appalachian Mountains. He put his focus on Chattanooga and won that siege, after which he was summoned to DC to replace Henry Halleck is old boss of the western theater. He then had several orders go out, one to the army he just left in Chattanooga to drive to Atlanta, Nathan Banks army in Louisiana to drive Atlanta as well, he told Meade to drive to go south and attack Lee but only when Lee has not fortified otherwise to envelope his left flank, he also had the Army of the James to raid North Carolina under Butler, along with Siegel attacking the Shenandoah. Needless to say Siegel sucked as a general in that regard, and Banks was instead ordered to hit Texas, and well Butler had the slows and was unable to move to cut off Virginia from the rest of the South.
@@mdhofstee OTOH, Grant located his headquarters with the A o/t Potomac to apply a spur to Meade. While Meade wasn't as bad about it as Sykes, he was called 'Tardy George' for a reason. He always took too long to make decisions and, unlike Grant, wasn't willing to take the casualties necessary to secure victory. None of that makes Grant a saint though. Grant made far more than his share of mistakes, as the entire Wilderness Campaign showed.
@@carlhicksjr8401 I still think back to a photograph of the Grant with the Army of the Potomac leadership. Grant is leaning against a tree while the rest of the generals are 25 feet away looking at maps and making decisions. I feel that picture makes it seem like Grant just told Meade, attack Lee and then Meade and his corp commanders decide how to do so. I also think some battles like Cold Harbor should have been avoided given the fortifications Lee's army built but then again it might have been one of the first times Meade and company came across trench lines of that strength. I think the Wilderness campaign was not a failure but rather a success. It put Lee on the defensive ended up taking out a few of his generals, and in the end put Lee in fortifications in Richmond and Vicksburg that deprived Lee his ability to maneuver which he was able to surprise previous Union Generals.
It doesn't matter if you're tired, if the mission requires you to keep pushing, you keep pushing. I say this as a former infantryman who lost 1/3 of his already understrength platoon in a single night in Ramadi, back in 2007. We had been running nonstop for a week straight at that point, getting 3-4 hours of sleep a day if we were lucky. Our vehicles were shot up, we were low on men, the only thing we did have plenty of was ammunition and food- not that we had much time to consume the latter. But if we stopped then, we would have lost everything we had accomplished. So the order came from higher to push on. And we pushed on. It fucking sucked. Our bodies were aching, our minds were exhausted, our emotions were a mess. But we did it, because we were ordered, and we understood it was necessary. And when haji saw us back in sector less than twelve hours after completing our previous mission, and this time establishing permanent outposts in the sector we were fighting to secure, the civilians saw that we weren't going to give up as previous units had, and they turned on al Queda. Some even turned in their own children. Meade should have pushed forward, and his men should have gone. I understand it would not have been easy, but it was necessary.
@@able34bravo37 Firstly, my respects on your service. I did a combat tour in the Central America in the mid-80s. I won't say 'I know how you feel' because I wasn't at Ramadi, but I have smelled the smoke. There is a factor in your assessment of Meade's decision on 04July63 that I want to bring to your attention, that of logistics. The last time Meade's Army reprovisioned was 4 days before, during the Ao/tP's blocking maneuvers to keep Lee away from Washington. His men's ration bags and cartridge boxes were empty, as was his artillery caissons. Meanwhile, the ANV had stripped the area for miles around of anything edible and had intercepted several QM wagon trains full of supplies [including ammo]. And Meade's wagon trains were still 10 miles back at the end of Day Three of G'burg. Had Meade demanded that his Army pursue Lee, he had nothing to fight the ANV with! I completely agree with you that if it was possible for Meade to block Lee's return to Virginia, he should have done so. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think it was possible given the information that Meade had on the morning of 04July.
Half to correct the record here. George G. Meade was never replaced as commander of the Army of the Potomac. Ulysses S. Grant replaced Henry W. Halleck who was general in chief of the Union Armies. Grant didn't want to remain behind in Washington as the new general in chief but accompanied the Army of the Potomac. He was never the army's immediate commander. That job remained with Meade through the end of the war. This video then has a misleading title.
Technically he was still in command, but in reality he was under Grant and with Grant being with the Army of the Potomac he could direct Mead and call the shots. That was the whole point of making him Supreme commander.
In other words, while I doubt he ever said so to Lincoln, Grant fully agreed with Meade that the army needed to reorganize before it had any more adventures against Bobby Lee.
Lincoln is played, here, by Hal Holbrook, and Grant by Anthony Zerbe. This video is from the mini-series “North and South.” It is not from the movie “Lincoln.”
Meade wasn't fired-Grant retained Meade as commander of the Army of the Potomac and Grant earned Meade's respect for doing so. To be fair to Meade, Gettysburg had bled the Army of the Potomac white-never during the war was it as weak as it was during and even more so after Gettysburg. Meade had accomplished what he had been ordered to do-defend Washington and turn back the Army of Northern Virginia, all while having been in command for less than a week. The Army desperately needed re-organizing and refitting for an effective offensive to be possible. Meade was afraid he could easily lose what had been gained trying an offensive after the hammering he took.
Meade still outnumbered and was in better shape than Lee in this situation...had Grant been there, he would have pursued and caught the Confederates and crushed the Army of Northern Virginia
Hard to tell, knowing what a Fox Robert E. Lee was, I wouldnt have been suprised if he would have turned the whole thing around again. Afterall numbers alone or rather outnumbering your enemy means little if they either have a very poor morale or can not be used properly. Besides, a larger army in pursuit can and often does mean a slower army aswell. So who knows? Meade did indeed what he had been told to do and people nowadays and history agrees that the Battle of Gettysburg was a turning point in the war, forcing the South into a more defensive position.
And most importantly with Grant being appointed that next spring he did what no other Union commander had done-took the initiative away from Lee for the rest of the war. Grant probably would have attacked Lee, I agree following Gettysburg. However Lee was so sure of an attack he had immediately set out building defensive lines-those same ones nearly impossible to crack because of the advantage the rifle gave to defenders. Harder to attack with badly depleted units that are mixed up, disorganized and basically licking it's wounds from the severe pounding it had undergone. Add to this the initiative paralysis that plagued this army the whole war, which in my opinion was due to it's proximity to Washington and the number of incompetent political hacks posing as generals.
Liky423 Grant also misunderstood defensive trenches-he took it as a sign the enemy was badly demoralized and near the breaking point. Cold Harbor expensively taught Grant that this was not so. Had Grant been at Gettysburg he definitely would have attacked, as seeing a chance for a decisive blow definitely outweighed the risks. Had Lee done anything fancy and perhaps turned a flank-Grant simply would have coolly reacted to it and struck a counter blow. Grant would have probably also used whatever forces available to cut off any type of retreat route Lee would have used. These two excellent generals of vastly different backgrounds would have ground each other to powder-as neither would have been able to gain an advantage over the other. Lee's army would have simply vanished to attrition or surrendered. Knowing Grant's expertise at supply and quartermaster logistics I bet he would have made been able to make good combat losses with local militia or shifted units with one of the North's many great assets-their military railroad system.
You're a relative youngster. My generation bought into the deep-voiced portrayals of Lincoln by distinguished actors such as Henry Fonda, Raymond Massey, Gregory Peck, and even Sam Watterston. We wanted Lincoln portrayed with gravity and dignity. It's only in recent decades that deeper research has been incorporated into screen depictions. I'm sure Daniel Day-Lewis has given the most accurate portrayal to date - but it took generations to get to this point.
@Leo Peridot Great analysis, sir. Longstreet was way ahead of others in terms of warfare. He bloodied the Yankees at every turn and wasn't glorified like Jackson. Longstreet was a real soldier and simply the best.
@Leo Peridot I think Longstreet has to get a pass for Day 2 and 3 at Gettysburg, since he was known to be opposed to both assaults. Now, on the other hand, he has greater responsibility for the desultory Knoxville campaign, and his fumbling at Seven Pines (though that was, admittedly, his first action at that level of command - he had a learning curve like everyone else). But as a corps commander, you can make a very good argument he was the best on either side in the entire war.
@Leo Peridot You can ding Longstreet on execution, not conception, which was entirely Lee's. But there was never ANY chance that Pickett's Charge was going to succeed, not even on Longstreet's best day. It was doomed to failure. DOOMED.
Grant knew that Meade was a fine officer. Meade was a victim of a lot of vicious in-fighting. Meade did rather well at Gettysburg. The Army of the Potomac was in no condition to attack Lee after Gettysburg. Grant knew it and retained Meade and Meade served as commander of the Army of the Potomac until the end of the war.
I think here is where Grant's genius is under-appreciated. Grant had a way of not having his army wasting time reorganizing after a battle as Meade and even Lee did. Grant had uncanny skills at keeping his army in the field, reorganizing it on the fly, no small feat in those days with units organized by state and ammunition only semi-standardized. You can read about it (for instance) at Shiloh. We can't know, but Grant probably would have figured out a way to safely pursue Lee after Gettysburg when nobody else on either side had the skill to figure out the nuts and bolts of that. Grant certainly kept pressing on once he took command in the east without substantial respite that I ever heard about. He gave Lee no breathing room once the two of them were engaged. This despite some major defeats that we all talk about. But the army stayed organized and engaged with Lee despite these setbacks. As far as I can make out, that alone was very uncommon in Civil War campaigns.
To be accurate General Meade had only just taken control of the Army Of The Potomac. Days before , Gettysburg. With the circumstances, logistics as they were. The decision's Lincoln had to make were extremely difficult. Thanks: Excellent researching.
I was simply blown away by this video. I had low expectations but this was quality at the highest degree. The screenplay, acting & cinematography were excellent.
You reckon? I thought the guy playing Lincoln absolutely sucked - a real ham. If you want to see a great acting performance as Lincoln try Daniel Day-Lewis in the film of the same name.
@@kenoliver8913 I think that your evaluation of the actor portraying Lincoln is harsh. But I accept your opinion. I think that Raymond Massey did the best film depiction of Lincoln in "Abe Lincoln in Illinois." But probably Massey's voice was more magnificent than Lincoln's. I think that Sam Waterston did a fine job of playing Lincoln in the film adaptation of Gore Vidal's novel, "Lincoln."
I saw a little of Chris Matthews on President Carter last night. One story I had not heard before was that, at a point where it looked like the Camp David talks were breaking up, Carter took both sides to Gettysburg, which isabout 25 miles away. It turned out that the military advisers on both sides had studied Gettysburg very thoroughly in the military school. Menachem Begin spontaneously recited the Gettysburg Address when they reached the Cemetery. A little more prodding and the sides made concessions they had strongly resisted before, and he got the agreement. The Battle of Gettysburg somehow continues to have an impact.
How fascinating. Thanks for that bit of information. It's a good example of how the past isn't always just 'the past' but can play a constructive role in the present (as it was then).
After Lee's defeat at Gettysburg, General Meade wrote to President Lincoln saying: "We have successfully driven the enemy off of our soil." President Lincoln, furiously, responded: "Why is it difficult for you to understand that it is ALL our soil?"
Grant's plan was simple, where ever Lee went he went, his style of warfare was simple, brutal. Lee was the better tactician but Grant kept after him till he wore him down. After previous battles other Generals withdrew and "recovered", this allowed Lee to recover also and prolonged the war. You hit someone enough times with a sledgehammer they will feel it.
You make a good point. However, I think the Grant that stalked Lee was not the Grant that nearly lost Shiloh. I think U. S. Grant grew as a commander (not that Lee didn't) and accepted a reality that was rejected early on : it would be a long, bloody war. You remember old Winfield Scott and his "Anaconda Plan." I read a little about Scott, and I like him no better than when I first saw a picture of "Old Fuss and Feathers" in a pictorial history my sister gave me in the 60's. But Scott was right : the North was going to have to strangle the South. I'd almost say this was an exception to the adage, "Generals always fight the last war, " only, Winfield Scott was retiring and George McClellan in effect became Chief of Staff. He undertook to fight "the last war. " It's funny. Allen Pinkerton, I understand, fed McClellan consistent overestimates of enemy strength contributing to Union paralysis. I saw a video that suggested Pinkerton was associated with communists, the Illuminati, or both and intent on conducting a civil war that would result in the alteration of American society. We love conspiracy theories. I agree now that Grant was brutal - with Lincoln's approval. Grant was a better commander than he's been credited for being. Current assessments show him to have gained a better grasp of the situation he was faced with and to be uncannily calm under fire.
@@cedricgist7614 the one thing that Grant is also not given credit for is his almost detached manner in battle. Even though he "learned a lesson" at Shilo he didn't 0anic like those around him were doing, his steadiness calmed the others and they were able to scratch something out of nothing, to say the army didn't crumble in to a catastrophe like at Bullrun. Though he cared for his men he knew a price would be high to win the war but unlike others who retreated or just sat after a battle he moved forward even after suffering severe casualties after the 2nd battle of the wilderness and shortly after cold harbor. Grant's reasoning was that even though he suffered losses so did Lee, the difference he could replace his, Lee could not!
It's the jobofa general to engineer the most lop-sided,unfairdisasterfor America'senremies possible-andthe quickerthe better. A generally officer raised worship Napoleon Bonapartehad this odd idea that he-and they-would win wars by cute and cqlevertactical moves, leading glorious battles full-dress uniforms with colors flying and bands playing!Against Lee,thatwas suicidakandwastedthe Unions potential superiority numbers,artillery,logisticsand communications!The lincoln found-or rather workedhisway down the listto a general who knew you win by ripping into theenemyandmurderingthem wholesaleuntilthey giveupin despair!
Yet Lee consistently lost 5% more men per engagement when facing Grant, even while fighting on the defensive and frequently behind fortifications. The relentless engagement did wear Lee's army, but that is a tactic the other Generals did not use. At the end Grant used the media who posted his order to Sheridan to move South and join Sherman. Thus Lee was surprised to find Sheridan behind him at Appomattox. Lee could never find a way to defeat Grant, not once. So, was he really the better General?
BlueBoy0316 Advisor- sir get rid of Grant he’s a slaughterer! Lincoln- didn’t he win? Advisor- yes sir BUT! He’s a drunk! Lincoln- well what does he like to drink? Advisor- I believe whiskey sir Lincoln- then send him MORE!
Oh and Meade was never fired... He remained commander of the Army of the Potomac until the end of the War... Grant was commander of all Union forces only the second Lt. General in American history after Washington.... The more you know.
Still...this was better than "The Blue and the Gray"...that mini-series where the war's most massive battles were recreated...with TENS of re-enactors. :-)
@@pameladrews6448 It was not Blue and Gray but North and South that had Geeore Hazerd as a character in it. But its no wonder he got confused about how many years Grant was ahead of him. If I remember correctly he was having problems with mathemantics.
Love how the old title of this was “Meade Fired, Grant Hired” and do to some aggressive complaints pointing the historical inaccuracies, the uploader came back years later and changed the title.
@@WILTALK I know, I just find it a funny image to think that the channel uploaded this video 10 years ago and probably thought nothing of it, then gets a flood of messages in his inbox and goes back to a video he probably forgot he uploaded because people on the UA-cam comment section got mad lmao
Yes, but he wasn't afraid to throw men at Lee. Other generals tried to pull fancy tricks with lee and wanted decisive victories, Grant, on the other hand, understood that he needed to wear down the rebels which is what he did.
@@michaeloc14 He also reportedly had a violent temper towards anyone that abused animals. I heard a story where he beat one of his men for beating a horse
This movie, like most, don't make clear the timeframe for selecting Grant, nor what happened to Meade. Gettysburg was in July of 1863. Grant was not made commander of all the Union armies until March of 1864. Meade remained commander of the Army of the Potomac for the duration of the war, and retained complete command of the army for 9 months after Gettysburg. After March 1864 Grant kept him on a short leash but still allowed him some latitude for operational control. By the end of 1864, however, Grant was micromanaging Meade and was the de facto commander of the AOP. Meade remained commander until June of 1865. He continued military service until 1872. And a bit of trivia. There are busts of five civil war generals in the crypt of Grant's Tomb. Meade is not one of them. Grant's tomb is not a highly visited memorial, which is unfortunate because it really is impressive, and shows the esteem in which he was held. If you have been to Les Invalides in Paris the influence of Napoleon's tomb on the design of Grant's tomb is obvious as soon as you walk into the building.
You know what's just down right funny? The actor playing Lincoln in this series was also in Steven Spielberg's Lincoln playing right alongside Mr. Lewis.
The problem is that Meade was right. He had just fought for three days, some 30% of his men were dead, wounded, or missing, the units required resupply and reorganization. Officers were dead or incapacitated. Sure, Meade had won, but that doesn't mean he could attack Lee.
@@yoyyoy6357 except there wasn't a decisive battle in the Eastern Theatre until 1864, when Grant arrives. Lee's army was always able to make an ordered withdrawal if conditions were unfavorable, as were defeated Union armies. The armies remained mostly intact. At no point did either side achieve a decisive victory until basically the end of the war.
and on top of that Lee had fortified while he prepared to cross the river, all in all Meade made the right call which is why even though Lincoln disagreed with his action, he never publicly reprimanded him, he only wrote a letter which he then never sent.
Meade was the first Union general who was not outsmarted by Lee. When he arrived in Gettysburg, he understood the terrain, the positions, the situation of the battle thus far and successfully PREDICTED Lee's next move...a change against the Union centre. He didn't move forces from the centre, to reinforce the battered flanks, he let them there. Lee was anticipating the Union commanders to move forces away from the centre to the flanks. He also overestimated the effect of his artillery bombardment. This resulted into the massacre of the Picket's brigade.
@@IMAN7THRYLOS yes. Meade's cautious but measured approach is what made him one of the better Union commanders. He was had a good head on his shoulders and did not allow himself to be drawn into unfavourable circumstances by politicians at home or the enemy on the field.
Hell yes Lincoln was disappointed that Lee escaped, and following the great victory at Vicksburg a chance for the war to be over in 1863, but in August he sent a message to Meade congratulating and thanking him for the victory as fought with regard for what he didn't do. But he was more disappointed in Meade's lack of aggression after the AoP had addressed its post-Gettysburg problems and the lackadaisical actions August-October. He even pulled Hooker's corp away from VA and sent it to Tennessee (along with Sherman and Grant.) But unlike this movie, Grant wasn't appointed general of the armies for several months following Gettysburg.
Maybe the scene doesn't make it clear that the colonel had to travel some distance to reach Grant. This segment also doesn't hint that Meade wasn't replaced, but months later Grant would become Chief of Staff and retain Meade as head of the Army of the Potomac.
First of all. The battle of Gettysburg did not end on July 4th. For the next ten days Mead's army fought a running battle with Lee until it reached the Potomac. Once it crossed the Potomac the battle continued for another two weeks. Lee's wagon train of wounded stretched for almost 17 miles and was harassed and continuously engaged. The weather had a great deal to do with how the battle unfolded See One continuous fight by Wittenberg
This was part of "North & South: Book Two", They were great movies!! All 3 of them! 2:54)Hiram U. Grant was promoted to General(O-10) after his death. The stars indicate the rank of Major General(O-8) in command of 1 division. 3:44)The colonel(O-6) is wearing a General Officers' coat.
At the time, major general was about the highest a man could expect to rise in charge of volunteers (don’t even get me started on brevets or regular army ranks). Here, it’s accurate that Grant is still a major general, as he had yet to officially be appointed Lt General, of which on,y two other men held such rank: Winfield Scott and Washington himself
People trying to defend Meade, for all the reasons noted in this clip and elsewhere, are pretty clueless IMO. Oh, Lee was **retreating.** As in, he wasn't in position to form a static defense if Meade had pursued. Meade actually convened a council of war after July 2, wondering whether to stay at Gettysburg or withdraw. I've always seen that as him hoping his corps and division commanders would vote for withdrawal.
As tacticians, both men were workmanlike at best -- a slight edge to Lee b/c Chancellorsville being taken back b/c Pickett's Charge. An operational genius (provided Jackson was around to execute his plans), Lee's strategic prowess was middling at best. He ignored the very nature of the war -- as a contest of population numbers and of industrial resources, and of the application of new commercial technologies to war; one featuring *regional* and even *inter-regional* mobility. In both his campaigns into Pennsylvania (1862, 1863), he suffered Rebel casualties he could ill afford, and emboldened his enemy -- incld. into putting some 175 regiments of Black soldiers into uniform against him! Lee underestimated the North's will to see things through, and failed to adapt his army's style of war-fighting and its objectives to the progressively debilitating effects of the naval blockade of Southern ports ahd the disruption of Southern infrastructure. Lee's "golden period" as a general lasted only about 11 months -- from the end of the Peninsular Campaign to the Battle of Chancellorsville. Grant (with Sherman and Sheridan to execute his plans) commanded and coordinated ALL the Northern armies -- not just one, as Lee did. He knew his enemy better than did Lee. Brilliantly, he loosed Sherman on a giant raid (Atlanta to the sea, late 1864) that showed he had a superior understanding of the components of enemy morale and of the importance of a stable home front in supporting armies in the field. Lee and the confederates were fighting the Civil War; Grant was fighting the next one.
My great grandfather was at fort Donleson . Was wounded two bullets in one leg and one in the other one and his second joint of his middle finger shot off . One bullet remain until his death in 1906. 11th Illinois volunteers infantry regiment company B
So many things are overlooked by arm chair generals. It started to rain heavily after the battle. Lee pulled out under cover of rain and darkness. He knew he wasn't going to be followed. The roads were a mess. He made sure of that with his wagons and cannon. It would have been almost impossible to keep powder dry in a rain storm while trying to attack. An army in defense could keep powder dry a lot easier. Under those conditions any smart commander knew he would be at a huge disadvantage attacking a defensive position regardless of the numbers. Grant would have done the same thing. Both Meade and Lee knew it was just a battle. Lee knew he couldn't win the war. Meade knew the North could win and would in time.
As has been pointed out again and again Lee's army was just as tired. And they had taken very heavy casualties. They KNEW they had lost the battle. Meade could have pressured Lee the entire way back south. Bottom line is that Meade could have done more but was too timid. Now in his defense his corps commanders were like a batch of cats; try herding cats to go in the same place at the same time and he had lost arguably his best corps commander in Hancock. But in the end he could have done more and did not
@@johnhallett5846 Meade didn't want to reward Lee with a victory after the defeat at Gettysburg. If he had tried to follow Lee - Lee would have turned on him and kicked his ass. .
Grant never had that kind of beard. His was shorter and covered his entire face. Just look at the pictures. I suppose making it look like Grants beard would have required him to actually grow one rather than glueing one on.
“What Grant had, and what almost any great general needs, was a deep, natural, and impossible-to-quantify instinct for war.” 💀 -from “How To Fight Presidents”, by Daniel O’Brien
First off, they start this scene by saying it's July 4th, the day after Gettysburg. Lee held his lines on Seminary Ridge on the 4th, and did not commence his retreat until that night. Meade did not attack on the 4th because he was a good enough general to realize that after three days of battle, what he possessed was position power and not striking power. Meade did make an immediate pursuit and the cavalry harassed the retreat. Lee was moving on interior lines and Meade on exterior lines. When the AoP finally caught up with the ANV and was fully concentrated, Lee had his army entrenched in a strong position. Given the experience at Gettysburg of the futility of frontal assaults (where the forces were not entrenched), Meade was loathe to order frontal assaults on Lee's field fortifications. We could have expected about the same result as Grant experienced at Cold Harbor a year later. A defeat at that time would have negated the effects of victory at Gettysburg. Somehow, historians have tried to portray Lincoln as having more military sense than his generals, but closer to the truth is that Lincoln's interference with his generals, including Grant, helped prolong the war.
Meade was not exactly a shrinking violet. He and Reynolds had reputations as being among the hardest fighting division commanders in the army. His division actually penetrated the Confederate right wing at Fredericksburg but could not get any suport. One general he asked for help refused to move without orders, a response that would have doomed the Union at Gettysburg. My great great grandmother's uncle led the southern division which managed to cork the hole, at the cost of his own life. At the end of Gettysburg, Meade had lost his two best corps commanders, his friend Reynolds dead and Hancock badly wounded. One can argue that the loss of Dan Sickles was a plus, but that was another Corps commander down.In addition, Gibbon, the original commander of the Iron Brigade, was Hancock's succssor as commander of the II Corps was also wounded and the Iron Brigade, one of the elite units of the Army of the Potomac, was little more than a large company at the end of the battle. I Corps and III Corps were so badly cut up that at the end of the year they were broken up and their units transferred to other Corps. The Union cavalry, which would lead the pursuit had been heavily engage on the first day (the remnants of Buford's brigade were sent to guard Frederick MD so the fresh cavalry unit could move north.) at the Battle of Hanover on the first day of Gettysburg, in the defense of the East Cavalry Field on the third day, and in an attack on the Confederater left at the end of the third day. In addition, they, like Stuart, had fought a hard action at Brandy Station and then been constantly on the move thereafter. The Union VI Corps arrived during a particularly hard period on the second day and was committed piecemeal across the battlefield, and though on paper it had not fought, its units were scattered all over the place and had to be located and reassembled before the corps could move. Meanwhile Lincoln et al could get more up to date information from Vicksburg via telegraph than they could get from Gettysburg, because Early and later Stuart had cut most of the lines in Adams and York Counties before and during the Battle.
Thanks for your extensive comment : you're a student of the war. Good point about Meade as a fighter. Does your outlook change as you advance to higher command? Or do you face unique situations that you must adapt to in order to continue succeeding? The "Peter Principle" comes into play here: you know, the theory that we rise to our level of incompetence. Many have commented as you have, that Meade was a fine commander and continued to be so. The more I examine the causes of the war and the conduct of the war, the more I'm tempted to believe that America was fated to this grueling, bloody conflict. I know this flies in the face of reason. What do you think?
You do have a wider area of responsibility with more factors to take into account. Some can handle it, some, like Custer, should never have an independent command. In the case of Meade after Gettysburg, He still had to maintain a position between the Confederates and DC, so he had to guarrd the South Mountain Gaps. He also had responsibility for the Confederate POWs, which, as a Division Commander, he just turned over to a higher authority. He also had to balance out the whle army, not just his division. He had to get casualty reports from his lower commanders (which at each step up, takes longer to get); as said elsewhere, Several of his Corps would need major restructuring just too give tham a command structure which would allow him to issue orders effectively. Sometimes an inexperienced or mediocre officer was the sole senior officer surviving for a major formation, and he would have to transfer someone else in from another unit to take command (without substantially weakening the donating unit). And some Corps had subordinate units scattered around the battlefield which had to be located and brought back together. The same applies to invividuals separated from their units in the fighting - the number of men available usualy climbed several days after the battle as men relocated their Division, brigade, regiment, down to their platoon (which might be down to a few men). Remember that he knew Lee was hurt, but he did not know exactly how badly. For all that, Meade was not all that far behind Lee. The one thing I might have done, was ask for troops from Harpers Ferry and some of the Washington garrison to cross the Potomac and move upstream to force Lee to make an opposed crossing of the Potomac, but those troops were not under his control.
That'swhatinfuriated Lincoln! Somehow, Leegot ALlthe breaks!napoleon was particularlyfondofanalyzinghis opponents-andcarried estimatesoftheirskillandfightingsttitudesaroundwith him on campaign. But ultimately,heask his staff:"yes-BUTIE LUCKY?
Grant did not think Lee was the best soldier. Grant shades Lee as a commander because not only did he destroy the South in the west, in the last year of the Civil War he managed all of the Union armies. That included Sherman in the South and Sheridan in the Shenendoah Valley. Grant served in the field, supervising Meade, who was still commander of the Army of the Potomac, but he had his eye on the entirety of the Union campaign.
Good god the acting here is as good as it gets. I feel privileged and honored to have had the opportunity to sit in silent amazement as these golden geese of the screen actors gild put on a clinic.
Grant knew how to defeat Lee, Lee, by then, knew how to fight on the defensive. Grant won the war, but the price was absolutely horrendous. It's something every single American needs to know about.......
The north fought the entire war one handed. Look at everything else the government was engaged with during the conflict, from western expansion to scientific endeavors, to industrial growth, to continuing conflicts with native Americans; Had they truly brought everything to the table against the south, the war might have been over two years earlier. Even with the hope of foreign intervention, the south never had a chance!
@@williamanthony9090 Yeah, I'm not sure what he's getting at....Grant was on the offensive in the South the entire time ---of course his casualties were going to be higher. He had to win the war before the election could oust Lincoln, and he did. Lee on the other hand, butchered men that he couldn't spare--instead of fighting a guerrila campaign which would likely have drawn out the war until a cease fire could be signed. Even Lee said that Grant had managed the Virginia campaign remarkably well. Please stop @Darth Belal with the Lost Cause apologist rhetoric nonsense. The country has woken up to it.
@@williamanthony9090 Too many of the Union Generals bought their ocmmissions and were in the war purely to advance thair political careers. They was constant rivalries and back stabbing of each other. Too much politics involved.
So wrong; first, Grant was not 'brutal. He was a brilliant tactician far superior to Lee (through Grants generals sometimes failed him). Most his battles and certainly all his campaigns were extremely well thought out and some brilliant (battles to defeat the defenders of Vicksburg) - his military skills were far beyond Lee's. For example, both of Lee's ventures into the North were crude and had no real strategic plan that anyone could discern - they were doomed because he had no supply system nor real objective. Don't forget in the beginning of the war Lee was kicked out of and lost "western" Virginia in a series of battles - loosing one after another; ditto in the peninsular campaign - McClellan won all the battles and then, due to false intelligence, fled while on the cusp of victory. Lee even lost more men over the war than Grant! Continuing false narratives created by bad southern historians does not make it true.
With respect to both generals I think that Grant's experience in the West gave him a greater understanding of the continental perspectives involved, the strategy, movements and economics to control half a continent, where as Meade was more familiar with protecting the area around the Capitol's and trying to defeat Lee, Grant seen the problem in front of him and attacked it. Just my opinion. Love the history.Thx.
Greg-Good points. Let me add one other. In late July 1864, Lincoln and Grant meet at City Point. There is no record of what said, but from that point on, Washington DC was bypassed and Grant would run the war from City Point.
I consider Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain one of the colonels in the Union Army of the Potomacat Gettysburg. His regiment's defense of Little Round Top was an improvisational masterpiece that kept the AOP from losing at Gettysburg on the second day of the battle!
While Hal Holbrook isn't as tall as the real-life Lincoln was, he DOES look like him physically, so kudos to the makeup department; plus, Hal Holbrook isn't bad as Lincoln, IMO...
Lee knew he could not battle indefinitely. Time was an advantage of the north due to greater numbers of men and materials and factories and infrastructure. Lee's frontal assault on day three was not a result of his grandiose ego and his sadistic or psychopathic indifference to the inevitable suffering it would cause, rather it was a result of his generals being too passive and restrained on the first 24 hours of the battle and not taking full advantage of the available terrain positions, and following up with their advantage of rolling momentum. Lee was not left with any other options than a final full measure attack. He needed to destroy the Northern Army completely, and this was never going to be done by sitting behind defensive positions. A full route and the bounty of fresh horses, cannons, food and provisions would allow him to continue the attack and possibly win the war. Grant was the perfect general for the situation, because he used the numbing effects of alcohol to withstand the horrific emotional and psychological trauma of war. He routinely ordered his men to advance into certain slaughter, as it was the only option available, just as Lee had determined on day 3 at Gettysburg. And, if one studies Grants attacks upon Lee starting with the Wilderness through Petersburg, we can see that this war could only have been won with overwhelming numerical superiority in men and material, and with an unflinching will to order thousands of men into certain death and mutilation.
"War is hell." Gave you a "like" despite your brutal conclusion. Was it inevitable? The more I learn about the Civil War, its causes and how it was conducted, the more it seems that this nation was fated to a grueling, bloody conflict. That flies in the face of reason, I know. Lee could have used a Buford. Lincoln could have used a Lee. Lincoln got a Grant after years of painful experience. At the outset, Winfield Scott, the bloated, departing Chief of Staff, speculated the "Anaconda Plan" - a war of attrition. McClellan rejected the plan - and as much as I dislike McClellan - I probably would have agreed with him. No one wanted a protracted, bloody war. But the elder Scott was right, and Grant, Sherman, and other Union commanders learned the hard way. Warfare had changed : there weren't going to be any more Agincourts and Waterloos. You didn't use the word "inevitable"; I did. But it's almost as if America had to pay a price for its hypocrisy and hubris. Beyond the issue of slavery - which was huge - was our assertion that a form of government and a nation like ours could continue. I understand Lincoln didn't scribble his "Gettysburg Address" on a napkin on the train to Pennsylvania. And I recently saw a video suggesting that communists engineered the Civil War, that the Illuminati and like-minded folk supported the carnage to further their ends. I don't know. I do know that we still have a propensity for "solving" our problems through violence. So how "enlightened" and "sophisticated" are we really?
You are almost entirely wrong. What Lee had to do is keep the war going long enough for the Peace candidates to win the next election. Had Lee not attacked at Gettysburg the North would not have had that victory. Gettysburg and the capture of Vickburg helped Lincoln ot win his second term. If lincoln doesnlt win the North would have sued for peace. The aggression of Grants pressure on lee was necessitate by the growing peace movement in the North. Had lee escaped he could have kept the war going and the north would have sued for a compromise peace. This war was faught as much politically as it was militarily.
Lincoln, like most civilians, had little or no comprehension of combat; its effects on the combatants or of the logistics of conducting a campaign. His frustration is understandable but the reality of what remained of Meade's army was beyond his understanding.
Meade wasn't fired though. He was remained the commanding officer of the Army of the Potomac, so Lincoln had make the rank of a 4 star General so Grant could be the General in Chief of Union Forces.
Lincoln's tirade against Meade was written, filed in a desk drawer, and never delivered. Meade was commander of the Army of the Potomac for the rest of the war. Grant didn't become commander of the United States Army for another eight months, another argument that Lincoln got over his tantrum fairly quickly.
Sorry, this is Hal Holbrook in the role of Lincoln, not Daniel Day Lewis, who had the lead role in the 2012 movie Lincoln...(Holbrook did appear as Senator F. Preston Blair in that same movie). Holbrook played Lincoln at least twice, in the 1970s TV miniseries "Carl Sandbergs' Lincoln", and again in the 1980s miniseries North and the South, & the North & South ll. Nothing against Mr. Holbrook, but I've always been sold on Gregory Peck to have played the best Lincoln.
I have to go and correct this: Meade was never fired from his command. Grant was to assume command of all federal forces which he did. Meade has the commanding general for the Army of the Potomac. As for Grant's drinking well whatever the case may be he did pound the CSA into submission although he did it in a barbaric manner. But that is a discussion for another day.
Anthony Ingersoll nobody cares okay far as I'm concerned General Grant enforced Title 18 USC 8 treason however he did not enforce all of it at means hanging for all the commanding General's including Lee and of course he did not enact the military uniform code of justice do UCMJ aiding and abetting the enemy and many other sections covering f****** traders who resigned that commissioned to attack their country so I give General Lee in a for effort and that's all everything else he fell that shipping a massive trial and then shipping a massive hanging go see the movie Josey will and which all the Confederate soldiers that Serenity arm and got executed go see that scene in that movie you can find on UA-cam that's what should have been done for petranek country and for firing the first shot to attack their government you don't have to be loyal to the government but damn it if you are an officer in the armed forces and you resigned to go fight with Al-Qaeda against your country your a f****** God damn traitor similar situation same way right here General Lee resigned his Commission so he can put on the flag and the lapel of another country in a different uniform against the country he was born in I'm sick of people trying to defend the Confederacy
Thebasicstrategywasny barbaric, just ruthless and practical. Granthimself regretted the casualtieshetookin frontal attacksondug-in rebs!Butthen, the Union won some frontal attacks dug-in rebs(at Lookout Mountain,forexample(which brolethe Armyofh mississippi)so suppose grant COULDhaveclaimedhe took a calculated riskbecausrthe benefitsofsuccessoutweighedthe potentialvostofa loss. Weveryonewho witnessedthe union assault the fesrfullysteep Lookout Mountain thoughtitwas madness-untilyhe blue troops keptgoingupthe steep hilsuntil they crested the tip anddrovethereb rmyallthewayto Alabama!So Granthad resin to believe couldbedone-andeventuallyhebrokethrough Lee's WW1 style lines Petersburg,which ledtothr ?confederate government's great Skedaddlethrough countryseeminglyfullof CSA zroopsin garrisonsanf guard detachments. to read accounts Jeff Davis' flight through Southern virginia, yo'd think the confederatescouldstillhaveraised a dangerous force from the bitsand pieces that continued operate until Jeff Davisandhis entouragebroughtnewsofthe confederate dissolution!Bythe time Davis gaveitup anddismissedhisescort, head whole brigadeofcavalryandtheschool battalionsofthe CSAmilitaryandnaval academies with him!Fully mobilized countriesdon'y just evaporate when theirsrmiesaare destroyedinbattle-as withRometherewerestukkalotof rebel soldiers formed bodieslongafter Lee beat feetoutofyhey Petersburg linesand Jeff Davis bolted for Mexico!Alotofthe CSAcontinuedto operate,businessas usual-until Davisbroughtthr newsofthe fallof Richmonf with him!
Hey Abe, Meade just fought a brutal 3 day battle and suffered 21,000 casualties followed by a driving rain storm that would have made a counter attack difficult at best. Meade held on to command of the Army of the Potomac until the end of the war, Grant was made commander of all Union armies and he and Meade had a good working relationship.
Because everyone else is already discussing the big stuff: To those not familiar with American apple cider, we make ours alcohol free, whether that makes it better or worse to those kinds brewed with it I will leave you to decide.
multi-great uncle Johnny (appleseed)made fortune out of applejack in tgearlt nineteenth century. He'd buy likely patchofground, plantain applrorchard,anf mkeadeal witha local to look afterthetreesan collective apples' he mightfinancean all press with another lacalto pressoutthe juiceanf barrelthe juicentilitreachedfullpotency. Then you could sellthestufffora healthy pile per barrel-wjichwaseasierto ship east than mostofthefrontier'sother products!
From a scene detail observation, as this was in July in Washington D.C., when Lincoln was tasking the colonel to go talk to Grant, why was there a fire in the corner stove and the lamps lit during daylight hours?
While Lincoln‘s frustration is understandable after two years of McClellan, Burnside and Hooker, what he‘s asking simply isn‘t practical for an Army in the American Civil War. After a full-on engagement, never mind three days of it, not only are your men physically exhausted and the entire army out of ammunition, you‘re also more than likely looking at having to reorganize all your units and basically put them back together after the chaos of battle. People think all of that just happened automatically, but no, it takes time. That also involves replacing your dead and wounded officers, which in the Civil War became casualties at alarming rates and at Gettysburg Meade had lost several of his Corps Commanders alone. Demanding that Meade immediately pursue Lee after the battle is just as impractical of say, demanding the same thing of Grant after Shiloh (which has also been done). It‘s not a coincidence that battles during the Civil War, even decisive ones, rarely led to the wholesale destruction of the entire losing army, and logistics are a major reason for that. It‘s easy to ignore logistics after the fact and demand that General X should have moved faster, but the reality is usually different. There were exceptions of course, like McClellan sitting on the Antietam battlefield for Months. But Meade was no McClellan. He moved very quickly when it came to pursuing Lee into Pennsylvania and made very good use of his armies‘ resources to gain an advantage and force Lee into battle on his terms-much more than any Previous General of the AOP had done. But continuing the pursuit after a battle where you lost a third of your forces is a very different matter. Lincoln quickly realized this, which is why Meade kept his command for the rest of the war. I will add that the Army of the Potomac had spent the last 6 days pursuing Lee by the time they got to Gettysburg. They were in Virgina on June 25, in Frederick, MD on June 27 and around Emmitsburg/Taneytown by June 30. On July 1, they converged on Gettysburg with the I & XI Corps going into battle directly from the march, in some cases not even getting time to load their weapons. The rest of the Army, arriving later, had marched a longer distance that day and moved directly into defensive positions on arrival.
Akashi record picture of Abraham Lincoln, maybe real life he looks like not much so they use Akashi picture 😇 ok hopefully he can understand even actor picture copycat of Akashi record picture 😇 ok
One of Grant’s advantages in the West was that he had the best army of the war-the Army of the Tennessee and at Vicksburg his corps commanders were Sherman, Ord and McPherson. Why even McClernand was a better corps commander than Howard, Sickles, Sedgewick, Slocum, Newton and Sykes were. And at Chattanooga Grant had the other great Midwestern army as well, the Army of the Cumberland. But when Grant went east his instruments were the poorly functioning armies of the Potomac and James. Though by the end of the war with help from Westerners Sheridan and Ord, and with new energetic corps commanders (Wright, Humphreys, Parke, Griffin, Gibbon and Weitzel) Grant had those armies tuned up and and very efficient.
Howard wasn't a bad general, he just had the shittiest Corp in the AoP. He did well in the west; in fact when Sherman took the best of his generals and soldiers to Savannah, Howard was one of them. (Thomas, probably his second best commander, took the AoC to Nashville.)
How could you forget Hancock? He was arguably the best general of the entire war. It was his ability that saved the Federal army from destruction on July 2 thanks to Sickles' bonehead move
No one gets to be an Admiral or A General alone . It takes being a special person to surround themselves with people who may be smarter than you. The organization of such people and the implementation of policy is what takes skill .
This is from the series North and South, based upon the books of John Jakes, starring patrick swayze, made in the 1980s, in which halbrook reprises his role as Lincoln. You might also recognize the Grant actor as Anthony Zerbe who also played the villainous General on Star Trek Insurrection. Halbrook played Lincoln earlier int he 70s in a series called Lincoln.
Yet it feels rather amusing now how people assumed what Lincoln's voice sounded like when we know now that Daniel Day Lewis captured the true high pitch of that President's voice.
I wonder why Grant and George Hazard didn't reminisce about their West Point days or make that connection? Early on in this miniseries they interacted at West Point.
Butthe union cavalry had scoredoneofitsfirst victories over Jeb stuartandhad taken only light losses and meade was ablate spare wholedivisionto pickup the deadened woundedangenerallyscavengethe battlefield!I'dsuggest lincoln was thinking that all those expensive troopers-including Rush's Pennsylvania lanversand New Jrersey'sAmericsn hussars could and shouldhsvrebeen ablate stop Lee'sweary walkersasthey sloggedthroughthe mudtothe nearest safe fordbackto Virginia!mostofwhat stopped Picket'schargewasstillintact-perhaps Meadewas worriedbiutreplacingthe senior officers atto restorethearmy's chain of command. Hewas still newton commandhimselfandhad some ideaofhowlongit wouldtakrfornewly promoted Brigadiersabd Major generalist reallyunderstandwhatthey noecommanded!He'd just eon the first great victoryofthewaroverLeein stand-uo fightandperhapsdodn'ywntto risk areversebypressingafter Leeto destructon, as Lincoln wanted t. The Union, after all, hadcanother whole army group out Westandthrerailroadsneededto get it back east pronto, if needed!If meadewantedto restore the Army, Lincoln wanted restore the Union-bydrivinga stakethroughthe heartofthecSA's principle fightingforcewhilritoff bsalanceandweighed down with meson wagon train caryingits wounded!
Mark Weaver Yes....very dangerous. Had Meade followed up and pushed on through a fourth day, the two armies would only bloodied each other to a stalemate. Lincoln should’ve realized by that stage of the contest that Lee, Longstreet, Stuart could not be so easily corralled.
@@casualobserver3145 Meade's VI Corps (his largest, mind you), that of Sedgwick, had been entirely unengaged at Gettysburg. Furthermore, a large force of militia under Union Maj. Gen. Darius Couch was in the area. All I think Meade had to do was link up with Couch, detach all of his least bloody brigades into a separate (say, IV) Corps, and he would suddenly have had more than enough men to mount an effective pursuit of Lee. Heck, after East Cavalry Field, Meade should have detached Pleasonton to seize all viable crossings on the Potomac and delay any crossing until the AotP (marching with the three Corps I described above in the lead) arrived to force Lee into the river.
Very true. The prime opportunity at the Potomac was certainly there. But how many times before were there both opportunity and man power yet at the moment of truth (Hooker just before Chancellorsville) did things turn in Lee’s favor. Had he been in charge then, Grant might’ve doggedly chewed him but I don’t believe Meade, etal had what it took. It may have turned into what happened so many times before....another squandered opportunity.
@@casualobserver3145 I do not recall another time where there was (at once) opportunity, manpower, and an enemy on the back foot with no fresh reserve.
What's funny is they accused Grant of being a drunkard, yet the Army of the Potomac was chalk full of half-wit major generals (like French for example) who were completely sodden most of the time. Officers could obtain 'medicinal whiskey' from the commissary while enlisted could be punished for having it. Many times an NCO would obtain whiskey charging it to so and so officer without their knowledge. Some ingenious Confederates kept their hooch stashed in a hollowed out watermelon that they buried underneath their tent to which they would stick straws in when they felt like imbibing some.
Also, these seems to lend belief that Grant also deified Lee, when the contrary is more true. Although he respected Lee he believed his success was more due to the incompetency of Grants predecessors.
well that doesn't discount the previous commanders mind you, remember Grant kept quite a few commanders on like Meade. And fired those who had little on the way of merit, Grant and Sherman are the first modern generals with Grants administrative skill and Sherman's tenacious offensives.
Meade was actually horribly under rated, and Lincoln really did him poorly after Gettysburg. Meade did in fact move pretty quickly but Lee's army had an inside line on the march.
I think we all agree it was a missed opportunity. To me the question is, "Was it unreasonable, even inexcusable, that Meade didn't press harder to wreck Lee's forces?" Lee's reputation was not undeserved, and Gettysburg exposed a desperate man. Suppose Meade had pressed and been caught in a trap? Today we can talk about Lee being trapped by the swollen Potomac and a retreating column that stretched for miles. Still, if you're tired and you corner a tired, desperate foe, can you guarantee that your willpower will overcome his willpower? You mention two relatively fresh Union corps. Gettysburg was a devastating clash that drained everyone involved. I was referring to Meade's mind-weariness, not the availability of two fresh corps. It must have been something to behold "Pickett's Charge" after two days of desperate fighting. I'd bet Union commanders felt fortunate to avoid being routed despite superior numbers and better field position.
@@cedricgist7614 Meade should have gone on to a Day 4. Lee didn't move out until July 5. He was in situ 24 additional hours. Meade thought (erroneously) that by repulsing Pickett's Charge he had crippled the ANV and that was enough. But as you said, Lee was a wounded dog. He should have been put out of his misery.
AgreeMahonewasa scrapper,whosedivision heldtogetherrven onthe marchto A[ppomsttox. Eye witnessessaidthey still looked likea fighting force,even in the downpoursofrain andthe deep mud Lee's peoplestruggledthrough, trying to get homrto Virginia!
While Lee only had to worry about leading the Army of Northern Virginia against Grant, Grant had to worry about leading the entire Union army plus fight against Lee. Grant understood better than Lee the use of modern weaponry and how they changed the tactics of war. Lee was fighting a largely defensive war yet had more casualties than Grand did fighting an offensive war, the opposite of what would be expected. Grant was the finer general.
don't know if its true or not but apparently when Lincoln was told that Grant was not fit for command cause he drinks Lincoln said " find out what whisky that man drinks and send a barrel to each of my generals" (After watching video) I stand corrected😅
Lee was brilliant in the way he was able to slip away from Gettysburg and back to Virginia almost unnoticed in the aftermath of the battle. However, while it was a successful retreat, too many good men had been lost there for the Army of Northern Virginia to ever recover from. Losing Stonewall Jackson the year before was already the first in a series of signs that the end was coming for the Confederacy.
If Lee had listened to Longstreet and taken the defensive, sooner or later Meade would have had to attack or retreat. An attack might have proved as ruinous to Meade as Pickett's charge was to Lee. The death of Stonewall Jackson took away Lee's alter ego and Lee could never accept Longstreet's cautious counsel, which he should have done at Gettysburg.
@@parsnip82 Lee did not intend to fight a battle at Gettysburg but both armies were drawn into a meeting engagement. If the Union Troops had won on the first day - then it would have been Lee on the defensive - but the Confederates won the first day and drove the Union Troops into defensive positions up on the ridge. This put Lee into an offensive mode. The Army was attacking the Union and thought they were winning. So - he didn't want to call them off. Yes - he should have - but that is why he didn't. He thought he was winning right up until Pickett's Charge. Here - he was thinking to do like Napoleon had done - when he drew off the Austrians reserves first to one flank and then to the other - leaving them vulnerable in the center. The thing is - Napoleon did all that in one day - Lee had done it over two days - and the North had had troops coming in the whole time. The South was like the Germans fighting the Russians in WWII. One side had a better army but the other had vastly more men. The side with the better army could keep on winning time after time - but - they could never afford to suffer a major defeat. The Side with the larger army could suffer defeat after defeat after defeat - and still not lose because they could always replace their losses and provide reinforcements as well. There were 600,000 dead in the Civil War. 400,000 Union losses and 200,000 Confederate losses. The South with the better army inflicted twice the casualties on the Union - but it didn't matter. They never really stood a chance. It was just the superior nature of their Generals and Soldiers that let them win - but they couldn't keep it up - and the North could. .
"too many good men had been lost there for the Army of Northern Virginia to ever recover" Good men? Traitors you mean, who did more harm to the United States than all our other enemies in all other wars combined. These slobs would have been first in line cheering on the swine in MAGA caps attacking OUR capitol. Marse Robert should rot in hell with Benedict Arnold, Jeff Davis and eventually that lard ass Orange Boy.
Lincoln's surviving son once said that Raymond Massey had his father's voice and mannerisms (Massey played a starring role in a movie about Lincoln). Imitate Massey, and you've got a good Lincoln...
Thanks for that tidbit. You see, long before Daniel Day-Lewis' portrayal, I'd heard or read that Lincoln's voice was higher pitched than the popular portrayals prior - including Massey's. So, you found a source that says Lincoln's youngest favored Massey's portrayal down to the voice. I think I saw the Massey version once, decades ago. Thanks for sharing this.
Realize that as George Washington has been called “the saver” of our country (by Noah Webster), so Grant could and should be recognized as “the saver” of our country in his conflict. This is significant; for Lincoln, in spite of historians’ sentiment for him, was not the saver of our Union, since he would have lost the 1864 election had it not been for the victories earlier in September of Sherman and Sheridan, subordinates of Grant carrying out his orders. Furthermore, would you wish that there would be another Grant in another war on American soil? There will be. He will be the third and last saver of our Union in the upcoming war of succession. To those of you still alive at that time: Would you give him moral support all along, which neither Washington nor Grant received until toward the end of the wars? See that you do! Read more about this in the article: “What Events will occur prior to the coming War?” Gene Urtel -The Rivertown Press
James Read is the actor playing Lincoln's military aide and messenger. He was the "North" to Swayze's "South". This was actually from the follow up miniseries to "North and South" I believe.
One of my favorite "tall tales" about Lincoln (I have no sources to confirm its accuracy) is that when Lincoln was told that Grant drank whiskey before battle, Lincoln is said to have asked, "Do you know what brand he drinks?" The person replied, "No, Mr. President, I do not." Lincoln responded, "Well, if you find out, let me know. I want to send a barrel of it to all my other generals."
Grant won because he was a realist. He knew he couldn't out think Lee, so he decided to just go toe to toe and slug it out. He and Lee both knew how that was going to end.
Stop with this Lee was a superior general trope. Most modern historians and military generals acknowledge Grant as on of the greatest generals the USA ever produced. They still study his Vicksburg campaign. He was the first modern general.
Meade-"I'm satisfied to see Lee depart our soil."
Lincoln-"When will these Generals learn, it's ALL our soil!"
I don't know how many will make it to your comment, but I thank you for sharing it. There was a steep learning curve in the Civil War, and I'm not sure it couldn't be avoided.
Tellittothe Democrat snowflakeswhio are cryingthemselvesto sleepover losing Kennedy's seatonthe Supreme Court!Allthose seats belong the American people. Whoever gets to sit-in them are only borrowing public property!
Yes, the peoples'. Not Mitch McConnells. Refusing to even hear Obama's nominee should have had him removed.
@@cedricgist7614 Meade was reprimanded but not demoted; he kept the Army of the Potomac and instead Grant was elevated over him to top commander of the armed forces. The generals before Meade were not so lucky.
Lincoln also knew Grant was aggressive enough to rip the South apart and shorten the war, unlike more conservative generals who went battle by battle, Napoleon style.
@Lats Niebling Interesting analysis.
Lincoln said " find out what Grant drinks and give every general a case of it."
I heard barrel.
He called it a 'hogshead' and for each of them.
Meade was regarded by Grant as a fine officer (he kept the command of the Army of the Potomac) but Grant was just like Ike in WWII - he had an overall strategic and politic view of the war, could earn the respect of his men, officers and politicians alike, and sorrounded himself with the best oficers he had to get to do the things needed done. That does count as being a great general.
Yep, Ike had generals like Patton and Bradley he could depend upon, although Patton was certainly difficult at times.
@@trwent o9
Grant also fought and won important battles such as Ft's Henry and Donelson and Vicksburg, so I do not agree with you, he was also a great field commander.
@@emintey I did not say Grant was not a great field commander as well. But as a Great Marshall (of sorts) he was even better.
What kind of men you put in charge of leading and commanding the subordinates is one of the greatest skills a leader can posess.
"Wants to know what kind of Whiskey you drink, so he can buy the other Generals the same kind", talk about a compliment, it doesn't get any better than that! Thanks for sharing. Best Wishes & Blessings. Keith Noneya
Which is weird as I understood Grant drank Apple cider...
@@christoduplessis8177 There is some convincing evidence that he was on 'a bender' during the Yazoo campaign.
@@bulow453 there is enough evidence that he sure did like a drink so it is very possible but we will never know how pervasive or not it was. Although we can all agree winning the war drunk would be quite something!
It's a great line. But Lincoln did not say it.
@@DennisMSulliva If you could maybe say that clearer?
I'm 60 and still learning about the battle of Gettysburg. Thank you.
Did you visit the site?
The North won.
Never quit learning.
Most haunted location in the US!
Damn Abe... Think you need to consider cutting down to 5 packs a day.
LOL, thanks for the laugh man
pissedoffdude1 happy to serve sir
That's Hal holbrook he had a gravelly voice.
There were no cigarette "packs' in those old days. You rolled your own. 5 packs x 20 cigs = 100 cigs. D'ya think Lincoln rolled a hundo tobaccy refers a day? He had a country to run, man.
No I’m suggesting he cut down to that many....
Grant would never have said of Lee that "He's the best soldier on either side." He didn't have a high opinion of Lee. This is what he actually had to say about him: "I never ranked Lee as highly as some others of the army -- that is to say, I never had as much anxiety when he was in my front as when Joe Johnston was in my front." Look it up if you don't believe me.
Facts. Joe Johnston was a terrible foe to have across from you. A brilliant tactician, well respected commander, and wily as a fox.
Yes you are correct. I was going to state the same thing if you had not. What they do in these retellings is continue the myth of Lee's Generalship created by the "Lost Cause" historians who dominated those who wrote on the Civil war. They also helped to perpetuate the perspective that Grant was a drunk.
@@codyking4848 Joe Johnston was also one of the few Confederate generals who thought as Grant did in strategic terms. While Lee, Forrest, Hood and Jackson were obsessed with defending lines on a map, Johnston understood that when you're in an unfair fight you sometimes have to give ground and pick your fights carefully. Compare that with Lee's obsession with holding on to Richmond at all costs, and you understand why Johnston was scathing in his criticism of Lee.
No wonder Grant respected Johnston, they were two men cut from the same cloth.
The entire scene here with Grant is total cringe to anyone who reads Civil War history in any detail. Grant was shy, diffident, and considerate of the feelings of others to a fault. And under no circumstances would he have treated orders from Lincoln as a request that he could deign to fulfill if he felt like it. And the acting was almost as bad as the fake beard.
Thank you
"I can't spare this man, he fights"
a quote in response to McLellan ordering Grants firing
@@icecoldpolitics8890 McClellan was the anti-Grant. An egomanic who thought wishful thinking won battles. If Grant had been in charge when that copy of Lee's orders was found prior to Antietam, the Army of Northern Virginia would most probably have been destroyed.
@@neilpemberton5523 not disagreeing he was indeed a poor general
@@icecoldpolitics8890 Indeed. It's pretty amusing that Grant in 61 went to see McClellan to ask for a commission and he didn't bother to even interview him! Even funnier that Grant's victories caused the totally undeserving Halleck to be promoted above McClellan in 62!
Neil Pemberton I feel like Halleck wasn’t the perfect guy for the job but McClellan was the absolute worst being so cautious that he would let the enemy reinforce while his over whelmingly stronger army sat there doing nothing.
The Army of the Potomac WAS exhausted.
Every one of its corps had engaged. All of its lead divisions were shot out. The artillery was just about out of ammunition until resupply came up and the infantry nearly so. Even the cavalry reported their horses as nearly played out and requiring rest.
And I say this as a historian who has read the unit returns that were reported to Meade.
I understand Lincoln's frustration with his generals in July '63. None of the parade of them had particularly distinguished themselves in two solid years of war. But in all fairness, this was a case of an officer accurately reporting the state of his forces to political masters who didn't want to hear it.
Meade could be stodgy, that's very true, but he didn't falsify reports or 'take the counsel of his fears' the way MacClellan did.
Also this is totally inaccurate in the mini series. Lincoln did not replace Meade with Grant. At the time, Grant became overall commander of all troops west of the Appalachian Mountains. He put his focus on Chattanooga and won that siege, after which he was summoned to DC to replace Henry Halleck is old boss of the western theater. He then had several orders go out, one to the army he just left in Chattanooga to drive to Atlanta, Nathan Banks army in Louisiana to drive Atlanta as well, he told Meade to drive to go south and attack Lee but only when Lee has not fortified otherwise to envelope his left flank, he also had the Army of the James to raid North Carolina under Butler, along with Siegel attacking the Shenandoah. Needless to say Siegel sucked as a general in that regard, and Banks was instead ordered to hit Texas, and well Butler had the slows and was unable to move to cut off Virginia from the rest of the South.
@@mdhofstee OTOH, Grant located his headquarters with the A o/t Potomac to apply a spur to Meade. While Meade wasn't as bad about it as Sykes, he was called 'Tardy George' for a reason. He always took too long to make decisions and, unlike Grant, wasn't willing to take the casualties necessary to secure victory.
None of that makes Grant a saint though. Grant made far more than his share of mistakes, as the entire Wilderness Campaign showed.
@@carlhicksjr8401 I still think back to a photograph of the Grant with the Army of the Potomac leadership. Grant is leaning against a tree while the rest of the generals are 25 feet away looking at maps and making decisions. I feel that picture makes it seem like Grant just told Meade, attack Lee and then Meade and his corp commanders decide how to do so. I also think some battles like Cold Harbor should have been avoided given the fortifications Lee's army built but then again it might have been one of the first times Meade and company came across trench lines of that strength. I think the Wilderness campaign was not a failure but rather a success. It put Lee on the defensive ended up taking out a few of his generals, and in the end put Lee in fortifications in Richmond and Vicksburg that deprived Lee his ability to maneuver which he was able to surprise previous Union Generals.
It doesn't matter if you're tired, if the mission requires you to keep pushing, you keep pushing.
I say this as a former infantryman who lost 1/3 of his already understrength platoon in a single night in Ramadi, back in 2007. We had been running nonstop for a week straight at that point, getting 3-4 hours of sleep a day if we were lucky. Our vehicles were shot up, we were low on men, the only thing we did have plenty of was ammunition and food- not that we had much time to consume the latter.
But if we stopped then, we would have lost everything we had accomplished. So the order came from higher to push on. And we pushed on. It fucking sucked. Our bodies were aching, our minds were exhausted, our emotions were a mess. But we did it, because we were ordered, and we understood it was necessary. And when haji saw us back in sector less than twelve hours after completing our previous mission, and this time establishing permanent outposts in the sector we were fighting to secure, the civilians saw that we weren't going to give up as previous units had, and they turned on al Queda. Some even turned in their own children.
Meade should have pushed forward, and his men should have gone. I understand it would not have been easy, but it was necessary.
@@able34bravo37 Firstly, my respects on your service. I did a combat tour in the Central America in the mid-80s. I won't say 'I know how you feel' because I wasn't at Ramadi, but I have smelled the smoke.
There is a factor in your assessment of Meade's decision on 04July63 that I want to bring to your attention, that of logistics.
The last time Meade's Army reprovisioned was 4 days before, during the Ao/tP's blocking maneuvers to keep Lee away from Washington. His men's ration bags and cartridge boxes were empty, as was his artillery caissons. Meanwhile, the ANV had stripped the area for miles around of anything edible and had intercepted several QM wagon trains full of supplies [including ammo]. And Meade's wagon trains were still 10 miles back at the end of Day Three of G'burg. Had Meade demanded that his Army pursue Lee, he had nothing to fight the ANV with!
I completely agree with you that if it was possible for Meade to block Lee's return to Virginia, he should have done so. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think it was possible given the information that Meade had on the morning of 04July.
Half to correct the record here. George G. Meade was never replaced as commander of the Army of the Potomac. Ulysses S. Grant replaced Henry W. Halleck who was general in chief of the Union Armies. Grant didn't want to remain behind in Washington as the new general in chief but accompanied the Army of the Potomac. He was never the army's immediate commander. That job remained with Meade through the end of the war. This video then has a misleading title.
Technically he was still in command, but in reality he was under Grant and with Grant being with the Army of the Potomac he could direct Mead and call the shots. That was the whole point of making him Supreme commander.
He was under Hallack's command before Gettysburg. But it's true that Grant led in the field.
In other words, while I doubt he ever said so to Lincoln, Grant fully agreed with Meade that the army needed to reorganize before it had any more adventures against Bobby Lee.
Two different battles. Wilderness was fought at the beginning of the campaign, Cold Harbor was fought just before they siege of Petersburg.
+TheGsxtage Wilderness and Cold Harbour were planned by Grant, as was the Siege of Petersburg as a whole. These were distinct events.
Makes me appreciate Daniel Day Lewis’s performance even more.
Skull Vader Same here. Sam Waterston did an admirable job as well in Gore Vidal’s “Lincoln” (1988)
Not only was Abraham Lincoln assassinated, 'Lincoln' got ROBBED! That film should have won Best Picture that year.
Daniel day Lewis is a remarkable actor
That is Hal Holbrook as Lincoln.
WELL NAH SHIT PATRICK 😂😂😂 jk jk
Lincoln is played, here, by Hal Holbrook, and Grant by Anthony Zerbe. This video is from the mini-series “North and South.” It is not from the movie “Lincoln.”
Thank you. For the life of me I could not recall the name of this but I knew Lincoln sounded like the excellent actor Hal Holbrook.
Meade wasn't fired-Grant retained Meade as commander of the Army of the Potomac and Grant earned Meade's respect for doing so. To be fair to Meade, Gettysburg had bled the Army of the Potomac white-never during the war was it as weak as it was during and even more so after Gettysburg. Meade had accomplished what he had been ordered to do-defend Washington and turn back the Army of Northern Virginia, all while having been in command for less than a week. The Army desperately needed re-organizing and refitting for an effective offensive to be possible. Meade was afraid he could easily lose what had been gained trying an offensive after the hammering he took.
Meade still outnumbered and was in better shape than Lee in this situation...had Grant been there, he would have pursued and caught the Confederates and crushed the Army of Northern Virginia
Hard to tell, knowing what a Fox Robert E. Lee was, I wouldnt have been suprised if he would have turned the whole thing around again. Afterall numbers alone or rather outnumbering your enemy means little if they either have a very poor morale or can not be used properly. Besides, a larger army in pursuit can and often does mean a slower army aswell. So who knows?
Meade did indeed what he had been told to do and people nowadays and history agrees that the Battle of Gettysburg was a turning point in the war, forcing the South into a more defensive position.
And most importantly with Grant being appointed that next spring he did what no other Union commander had done-took the initiative away from Lee for the rest of the war. Grant probably would have attacked Lee, I agree following Gettysburg. However Lee was so sure of an attack he had immediately set out building defensive lines-those same ones nearly impossible to crack because of the advantage the rifle gave to defenders. Harder to attack with badly depleted units that are mixed up, disorganized and basically licking it's wounds from the severe pounding it had undergone. Add to this the initiative paralysis that plagued this army the whole war, which in my opinion was due to it's proximity to Washington and the number of incompetent political hacks posing as generals.
Damn you beat me to it!
Liky423 Grant also misunderstood defensive trenches-he took it as a sign the enemy was badly demoralized and near the breaking point. Cold Harbor expensively taught Grant that this was not so. Had Grant been at Gettysburg he definitely would have attacked, as seeing a chance for a decisive blow definitely outweighed the risks. Had Lee done anything fancy and perhaps turned a flank-Grant simply would have coolly reacted to it and struck a counter blow. Grant would have probably also used whatever forces available to cut off any type of retreat route Lee would have used.
These two excellent generals of vastly different backgrounds would have ground each other to powder-as neither would have been able to gain an advantage over the other. Lee's army would have simply vanished to attrition or surrendered. Knowing Grant's expertise at supply and quartermaster logistics I bet he would have made been able to make good combat losses with local militia or shifted units with one of the North's many great assets-their military railroad system.
Isnt lincoln supposed to have a high pitched drawl?
This guy sounds like a chain smoker.
You're a relative youngster. My generation bought into the deep-voiced portrayals of Lincoln by distinguished actors such as Henry Fonda, Raymond Massey, Gregory Peck, and even Sam Watterston. We wanted Lincoln portrayed with gravity and dignity.
It's only in recent decades that deeper research has been incorporated into screen depictions. I'm sure Daniel Day-Lewis has given the most accurate portrayal to date - but it took generations to get to this point.
@Leo Peridot Great analysis, sir. Longstreet was way ahead of others in terms of warfare. He bloodied the Yankees at every turn and wasn't glorified like Jackson. Longstreet was a real soldier and simply the best.
@Leo Peridot I think Longstreet has to get a pass for Day 2 and 3 at Gettysburg, since he was known to be opposed to both assaults. Now, on the other hand, he has greater responsibility for the desultory Knoxville campaign, and his fumbling at Seven Pines (though that was, admittedly, his first action at that level of command - he had a learning curve like everyone else). But as a corps commander, you can make a very good argument he was the best on either side in the entire war.
Before Daniel Day Lewis my Lincoln came from _Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure._
@Leo Peridot You can ding Longstreet on execution, not conception, which was entirely Lee's. But there was never ANY chance that Pickett's Charge was going to succeed, not even on Longstreet's best day. It was doomed to failure. DOOMED.
"I can't spare that man, he fights!" A. Lincoln about Gen. US Grant.
Grant knew that Meade was a fine officer. Meade was a victim of a lot of vicious in-fighting. Meade did rather well at Gettysburg. The Army of the Potomac was
in no condition to attack Lee after Gettysburg. Grant knew it and retained Meade and Meade served as commander of the Army of the Potomac until the end of the war.
Yes! Furthermore Lincoln had told Meade not to attack Lee. He knew the advantage of a strong defensive position.
I think here is where Grant's genius is under-appreciated.
Grant had a way of not having his army wasting time reorganizing after a battle as Meade and even Lee did.
Grant had uncanny skills at keeping his army in the field, reorganizing it on the fly, no small feat in those days with units organized by state and ammunition only semi-standardized. You can read about it (for instance) at Shiloh. We can't know, but Grant probably would have figured out a way to safely pursue Lee after Gettysburg when nobody else on either side had the skill to figure out the nuts and bolts of that.
Grant certainly kept pressing on once he took command in the east without substantial respite that I ever heard about. He gave Lee no breathing room once the two of them were engaged. This despite some major defeats that we all talk about. But the army stayed organized and engaged with Lee despite these setbacks.
As far as I can make out, that alone was very uncommon in Civil War campaigns.
Lincoln also got over his frustration with Meade quickly. He just wanted the war OVER.
To be accurate General Meade had only just taken control of the Army Of The Potomac. Days before , Gettysburg. With the circumstances, logistics as they were. The decision's Lincoln had to make were extremely difficult. Thanks: Excellent researching.
I was simply blown away by this video. I had low expectations but this was quality at the highest degree. The screenplay, acting & cinematography were excellent.
You reckon? I thought the guy playing Lincoln absolutely sucked - a real ham. If you want to see a great acting performance as Lincoln try Daniel Day-Lewis in the film of the same name.
@@kenoliver8913 I think that your evaluation of the actor portraying Lincoln is harsh. But I accept your opinion.
I think that Raymond Massey did the best film depiction of Lincoln in "Abe Lincoln in Illinois." But probably Massey's voice was more magnificent than Lincoln's.
I think that Sam Waterston did a fine job of playing Lincoln in the film adaptation of Gore Vidal's novel, "Lincoln."
you need to get out more. this is ludicrous
Is you high?
Really?
Officer: "I know him well"
Grant: "I hear you're from Washington, Colonel."
As I understand it, Lincoln had a high-pitched, reedy voice, not the growl this actor is doing.
Hal Holbrook.
Elmo
Not easy to find a (good) actor who can match Lincoln's physicality and that high timber of voice. Honestly, Daniel Day Lewis really was the first.
Think it's like George c Scott as general patton adds to myth and mystic of the man
Lincoln was a suspicious character. What did he do that drove his wife insane ? What disgusting personal habits did this ambitious neo Marxist hide ?
I saw a little of Chris Matthews on President Carter last night. One story I had not heard before was that, at a point where it looked like the Camp David talks were breaking up, Carter took both sides to Gettysburg, which isabout 25 miles away. It turned out that the military advisers on both sides had studied Gettysburg very thoroughly in the military school. Menachem Begin spontaneously recited the Gettysburg Address when they reached the Cemetery. A little more prodding and the sides made concessions they had strongly resisted before, and he got the agreement.
The Battle of Gettysburg somehow continues to have an impact.
How fascinating. Thanks for that bit of information. It's a good example of how the past isn't always just 'the past' but can play a constructive role in the present (as it was then).
After Lee's defeat at Gettysburg, General Meade wrote to President Lincoln saying: "We have successfully driven the enemy off of our soil."
President Lincoln, furiously, responded: "Why is it difficult for you to understand that it is ALL our soil?"
Because - at the moment - it wasn't.
.
Yes, it was.
@@BobSmith-dk8nw Yes it was. Declarations from traitors do not change that.
Remember Lincoln was a politician, Meade was soldier.
@@adrianchannelle8651 King George III ... Is that you ?
Grant's plan was simple, where ever Lee went he went, his style of warfare was simple, brutal. Lee was the better tactician but Grant kept after him till he wore him down. After previous battles other Generals withdrew and "recovered", this allowed Lee to recover also and prolonged the war. You hit someone enough times with a sledgehammer they will feel it.
You make a good point. However, I think the Grant that stalked Lee was not the Grant that nearly lost Shiloh. I think U. S. Grant grew as a commander (not that Lee didn't) and accepted a reality that was rejected early on : it would be a long, bloody war.
You remember old Winfield Scott and his "Anaconda Plan." I read a little about Scott, and I like him no better than when I first saw a picture of "Old Fuss and Feathers" in a pictorial history my sister gave me in the 60's. But Scott was right : the North was going to have to strangle the South.
I'd almost say this was an exception to the adage, "Generals always fight the last war, " only, Winfield Scott was retiring and George McClellan in effect became Chief of Staff. He undertook to fight "the last war. "
It's funny. Allen Pinkerton, I understand, fed McClellan consistent overestimates of enemy strength contributing to Union paralysis. I saw a video that suggested Pinkerton was associated with communists, the Illuminati, or both and intent on conducting a civil war that would result in the alteration of American society. We love conspiracy theories.
I agree now that Grant was brutal - with Lincoln's approval. Grant was a better commander than he's been credited for being. Current assessments show him to have gained a better grasp of the situation he was faced with and to be uncannily calm under fire.
@@cedricgist7614 the one thing that Grant is also not given credit for is his almost detached manner in battle. Even though he "learned a lesson" at Shilo he didn't 0anic like those around him were doing, his steadiness calmed the others and they were able to scratch something out of nothing, to say the army didn't crumble in to a catastrophe like at Bullrun. Though he cared for his men he knew a price would be high to win the war but unlike others who retreated or just sat after a battle he moved forward even after suffering severe casualties after the 2nd battle of the wilderness and shortly after cold harbor. Grant's reasoning was that even though he suffered losses so did Lee, the difference he could replace his, Lee could not!
It's the jobofa general to engineer the most lop-sided,unfairdisasterfor America'senremies possible-andthe quickerthe better. A generally officer raised worship Napoleon Bonapartehad this odd idea that he-and they-would win wars by cute and cqlevertactical moves, leading glorious battles full-dress uniforms with colors flying and bands playing!Against Lee,thatwas suicidakandwastedthe Unions potential superiority numbers,artillery,logisticsand communications!The lincoln found-or rather workedhisway down the listto a general who knew you win by ripping into theenemyandmurderingthem wholesaleuntilthey giveupin despair!
Yet Lee consistently lost 5% more men per engagement when facing Grant, even while fighting on the defensive and frequently behind fortifications. The relentless engagement did wear Lee's army, but that is a tactic the other Generals did not use. At the end Grant used the media who posted his order to Sheridan to move South and join Sherman. Thus Lee was surprised to find Sheridan behind him at Appomattox. Lee could never find a way to defeat Grant, not once. So, was he really the better General?
I don't get it, isn't hitting someone once with a sledge hammer enough to make him feel? If you hit him more he'll probably die
I heard he was drunk at Shiloh
He carried the day though...
BlueBoy0316
Advisor- sir get rid of Grant he’s a slaughterer!
Lincoln- didn’t he win?
Advisor- yes sir BUT! He’s a drunk!
Lincoln- well what does he like to drink?
Advisor- I believe whiskey sir
Lincoln- then send him MORE!
@@V1nce_man ..Lincoln did not say that.. he said:
- ask what kind of whiskey he drinks so I can send a barrell to my other generals..
Humberto Flores
I know I’m just making jokes
Humberto Flores
I actually didn’t know he sent him any
He spent a lot of time drunk uwhen he was up the Yazoo in early '63, too.
2:11 If it is July in D.C. I doubt there would have been a fire burning in the heater.
LOL ... so very true. The things people pick up on.
Oh and Meade was never fired... He remained commander of the Army of the Potomac until the end of the War... Grant was commander of all Union forces only the second Lt. General in American history after Washington.... The more you know.
It's like they decided, "Let's make an accurate Civil War movie, but let's not try too hard."
Still...this was better than "The Blue and the Gray"...that mini-series where the war's most massive battles were recreated...with TENS of re-enactors. :-)
@@gheilers True! haha I'd forgotten just how cheesy Blue and Gray battles were
BD Yes, even George Hazard couldn't get his facts right: Grant was three years ahead of him at West Point, not two.
@UThink UCan I bet you're fun at parties
@@pameladrews6448 It was not Blue and Gray but North and South that had Geeore Hazerd as a character in it. But its no wonder he got confused about how many years Grant was ahead of him. If I remember correctly he was having problems with mathemantics.
The makeup department should have been sent to Andersonville.
civilwar ng1 well... they say tragedy plus time equals humor...it was kind of funny
too soon.
Funny! What about Lincoln, he looks pretting good to me.
That made me laugh out loud. Thank you.
Lol hilarious
Love how the old title of this was “Meade Fired, Grant Hired” and do to some aggressive complaints pointing the historical inaccuracies, the uploader came back years later and changed the title.
This entire video is filled with inaccuracies. The just keep repeating the same stories that were created and repeated in movies .
@@WILTALK I know, I just find it a funny image to think that the channel uploaded this video 10 years ago and probably thought nothing of it, then gets a flood of messages in his inbox and goes back to a video he probably forgot he uploaded because people on the UA-cam comment section got mad lmao
1) Abraham Lincoln had a high pitched shrill voice
2) I've heard grant was actually very quiet and shy.
Yes, but he wasn't afraid to throw men at Lee.
Other generals tried to pull fancy tricks with lee and wanted decisive victories, Grant, on the other hand, understood that he needed to wear down the rebels which is what he did.
Yep, he was a bit awkward in social situations like banquets. But when it came to battle, the man had as much confidence as anyone.
@@michaeloc14 He also reportedly had a violent temper towards anyone that abused animals. I heard a story where he beat one of his men for beating a horse
@@megabladechronicles962 It wasn't one of his men, but a teamster.
This movie, like most, don't make clear the timeframe for selecting Grant, nor what happened to Meade. Gettysburg was in July of 1863. Grant was not made commander of all the Union armies until March of 1864. Meade remained commander of the Army of the Potomac for the duration of the war, and retained complete command of the army for 9 months after Gettysburg. After March 1864 Grant kept him on a short leash but still allowed him some latitude for operational control. By the end of 1864, however, Grant was micromanaging Meade and was the de facto commander of the AOP. Meade remained commander until June of 1865. He continued military service until 1872. And a bit of trivia. There are busts of five civil war generals in the crypt of Grant's Tomb. Meade is not one of them. Grant's tomb is not a highly visited memorial, which is unfortunate because it really is impressive, and shows the esteem in which he was held. If you have been to Les Invalides in Paris the influence of Napoleon's tomb on the design of Grant's tomb is obvious as soon as you walk into the building.
Nice! Thanks for the history!
There was an old question asked in School back in the day. Who's buried in Grant's Tomb. Many couldn't answer 😂
You know what's just down right funny?
The actor playing Lincoln in this series was also in Steven Spielberg's Lincoln playing right alongside Mr. Lewis.
Which role?
Hal Holbrook
Ha ha.
The problem is that Meade was right. He had just fought for three days, some 30% of his men were dead, wounded, or missing, the units required resupply and reorganization. Officers were dead or incapacitated. Sure, Meade had won, but that doesn't mean he could attack Lee.
Lee was worse off, could have ended the war in 63 with another decisive battle
@@yoyyoy6357 except there wasn't a decisive battle in the Eastern Theatre until 1864, when Grant arrives. Lee's army was always able to make an ordered withdrawal if conditions were unfavorable, as were defeated Union armies. The armies remained mostly intact. At no point did either side achieve a decisive victory until basically the end of the war.
and on top of that Lee had fortified while he prepared to cross the river, all in all Meade made the right call which is why even though Lincoln disagreed with his action, he never publicly reprimanded him, he only wrote a letter which he then never sent.
Meade was the first Union general who was not outsmarted by Lee. When he arrived in Gettysburg, he understood the terrain, the positions, the situation of the battle thus far and successfully PREDICTED Lee's next move...a change against the Union centre. He didn't move forces from the centre, to reinforce the battered flanks, he let them there.
Lee was anticipating the Union commanders to move forces away from the centre to the flanks. He also overestimated the effect of his artillery bombardment. This resulted into the massacre of the Picket's brigade.
@@IMAN7THRYLOS yes. Meade's cautious but measured approach is what made him one of the better Union commanders. He was had a good head on his shoulders and did not allow himself to be drawn into unfavourable circumstances by politicians at home or the enemy on the field.
Hell yes Lincoln was disappointed that Lee escaped, and following the great victory at Vicksburg a chance for the war to be over in 1863, but in August he sent a message to Meade congratulating and thanking him for the victory as fought with regard for what he didn't do. But he was more disappointed in Meade's lack of aggression after the AoP had addressed its post-Gettysburg problems and the lackadaisical actions August-October. He even pulled Hooker's corp away from VA and sent it to Tennessee (along with Sherman and Grant.) But unlike this movie, Grant wasn't appointed general of the armies for several months following Gettysburg.
After Gettysburg, Grant was still in Vicksburg.
Maybe the scene doesn't make it clear that the colonel had to travel some distance to reach Grant. This segment also doesn't hint that Meade wasn't replaced, but months later Grant would become Chief of Staff and retain Meade as head of the Army of the Potomac.
First of all. The battle of Gettysburg did not end on July 4th. For the next ten days Mead's army fought a running battle with Lee until it reached the Potomac. Once it crossed the Potomac the battle continued for another two weeks. Lee's wagon train of wounded stretched for almost 17 miles and was harassed and continuously engaged. The weather had a great deal to do with how the battle unfolded See One continuous fight by Wittenberg
*Meade's army
"I can't spare him, he fights"
This was part of "North & South: Book Two", They were great movies!! All 3 of them!
2:54)Hiram U. Grant was promoted to General(O-10) after his death. The stars indicate the rank of Major General(O-8) in command of 1 division.
3:44)The colonel(O-6) is wearing a General Officers' coat.
At the time, major general was about the highest a man could expect to rise in charge of volunteers (don’t even get me started on brevets or regular army ranks). Here, it’s accurate that Grant is still a major general, as he had yet to officially be appointed Lt General, of which on,y two other men held such rank: Winfield Scott and Washington himself
Fun fact: 2 weeks earlier on June 20 1863 West Virginia was admitted as the 35th state in the union
People trying to defend Meade, for all the reasons noted in this clip and elsewhere, are pretty clueless IMO. Oh, Lee was **retreating.** As in, he wasn't in position to form a static defense if Meade had pursued. Meade actually convened a council of war after July 2, wondering whether to stay at Gettysburg or withdraw. I've always seen that as him hoping his corps and division commanders would vote for withdrawal.
Grant held Lee in high regard and one time when someone said some derogatory things about Lee in front of Grant he gave the man a dressing down.
Lee was good, but not the best; that was Grant.
As tacticians, both men were workmanlike at best -- a slight edge to Lee b/c Chancellorsville being taken back b/c Pickett's Charge.
An operational genius (provided Jackson was around to execute his plans), Lee's strategic prowess was middling at best. He ignored the very nature of the war -- as a contest of population numbers and of industrial resources, and of the application of new commercial technologies to war; one featuring *regional* and even *inter-regional* mobility. In both his campaigns into Pennsylvania (1862, 1863), he suffered Rebel casualties he could ill afford, and emboldened his enemy -- incld. into putting some 175 regiments of Black soldiers into uniform against him! Lee underestimated the North's will to see things through, and failed to adapt his army's style of war-fighting and its objectives to the progressively debilitating effects of the naval blockade of Southern ports ahd the disruption of Southern infrastructure. Lee's "golden period" as a general lasted only about 11 months -- from the end of the Peninsular Campaign to the Battle of Chancellorsville.
Grant (with Sherman and Sheridan to execute his plans) commanded and coordinated ALL the Northern armies -- not just one, as Lee did. He knew his enemy better than did Lee. Brilliantly, he loosed Sherman on a giant raid (Atlanta to the sea, late 1864) that showed he had a superior understanding of the components of enemy morale and of the importance of a stable home front in supporting armies in the field.
Lee and the confederates were fighting the Civil War; Grant was fighting the next one.
My great grandfather was at fort Donleson . Was wounded two bullets in one leg and one in the other one and his second joint of his middle finger shot off . One bullet remain until his death in 1906. 11th Illinois volunteers infantry regiment company B
So what. Union War Pig.
My great grandfather (my Dad’s grandfather) was with the 11th Illinois & US Grant at Fort Donelson too , surviving until wounded outside Vicksburg!
So many things are overlooked by arm chair generals. It started to rain heavily after the battle. Lee pulled out under cover of rain and darkness. He knew he wasn't going to be followed. The roads were a mess. He made sure of that with his wagons and cannon. It would have been almost impossible to keep powder dry in a rain storm while trying to attack. An army in defense could keep powder dry a lot easier. Under those conditions any smart commander knew he would be at a huge disadvantage attacking a defensive position regardless of the numbers. Grant would have done the same thing. Both Meade and Lee knew it was just a battle. Lee knew he couldn't win the war. Meade knew the North could win and would in time.
Custer and the Cavalry fought with the rear. Funny West Virginian unionist fought with rebels from Maryland there.
And Lincoln actually understood that. While he was pissed that Lee got away, he didn't berate Meade's decision not to pursue
As has been pointed out again and again Lee's army was just as tired. And they had taken very heavy casualties. They KNEW they had lost the battle.
Meade could have pressured Lee the entire way back south. Bottom line is that Meade could have done more but was too timid.
Now in his defense his corps commanders were like a batch of cats; try herding cats to go in the same place at the same time
and he had lost arguably his best corps commander in Hancock.
But in the end he could have done more and did not
@@johnhallett5846 Meade didn't want to reward Lee with a victory after the defeat at Gettysburg. If he had tried to follow Lee - Lee would have turned on him and kicked his ass.
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@@aaroncabatingan5238 Wrong. Lincoln DID berate Lee. He just didn't do it publicly.
Great acting and Lincoln & Grant look like the origninal photos of these great men!
Grant never had that kind of beard. His was shorter and covered his entire face. Just look at the pictures. I suppose making it look like Grants beard would have required him to actually grow one rather than glueing one on.
“What Grant had, and what almost any great general needs, was a deep, natural, and impossible-to-quantify instinct for war.” 💀
-from “How To Fight Presidents”, by Daniel O’Brien
Incredibly funny and surprisingly educational book.
First off, they start this scene by saying it's July 4th, the day after Gettysburg. Lee held his lines on Seminary Ridge on the 4th, and did not commence his retreat until that night. Meade did not attack on the 4th because he was a good enough general to realize that after three days of battle, what he possessed was position power and not striking power. Meade did make an immediate pursuit and the cavalry harassed the retreat. Lee was moving on interior lines and Meade on exterior lines. When the AoP finally caught up with the ANV and was fully concentrated, Lee had his army entrenched in a strong position. Given the experience at Gettysburg of the futility of frontal assaults (where the forces were not entrenched), Meade was loathe to order frontal assaults on Lee's field fortifications. We could have expected about the same result as Grant experienced at Cold Harbor a year later. A defeat at that time would have negated the effects of victory at Gettysburg. Somehow, historians have tried to portray Lincoln as having more military sense than his generals, but closer to the truth is that Lincoln's interference with his generals, including Grant, helped prolong the war.
Meade was not exactly a shrinking violet. He and Reynolds had reputations as being among the hardest fighting division commanders in the army. His division actually penetrated the Confederate right wing at Fredericksburg but could not get any suport. One general he asked for help refused to move without orders, a response that would have doomed the Union at Gettysburg. My great great grandmother's uncle led the southern division which managed to cork the hole, at the cost of his own life.
At the end of Gettysburg, Meade had lost his two best corps commanders, his friend Reynolds dead and Hancock badly wounded. One can argue that the loss of Dan Sickles was a plus, but that was another Corps commander down.In addition, Gibbon, the original commander of the Iron Brigade, was Hancock's succssor as commander of the II Corps was also wounded and the Iron Brigade, one of the elite units of the Army of the Potomac, was little more than a large company at the end of the battle. I Corps and III Corps were so badly cut up that at the end of the year they were broken up and their units transferred to other Corps. The Union cavalry, which would lead the pursuit had been heavily engage on the first day (the remnants of Buford's brigade were sent to guard Frederick MD so the fresh cavalry unit could move north.) at the Battle of Hanover on the first day of Gettysburg, in the defense of the East Cavalry Field on the third day, and in an attack on the Confederater left at the end of the third day. In addition, they, like Stuart, had fought a hard action at Brandy Station and then been constantly on the move thereafter. The Union VI Corps arrived during a particularly hard period on the second day and was committed piecemeal across the battlefield, and though on paper it had not fought, its units were scattered all over the place and had to be located and reassembled before the corps could move.
Meanwhile Lincoln et al could get more up to date information from Vicksburg via telegraph than they could get from Gettysburg, because Early and later Stuart had cut most of the lines in Adams and York Counties before and during the Battle.
Thanks for your extensive comment : you're a student of the war.
Good point about Meade as a fighter. Does your outlook change as you advance to higher command? Or do you face unique situations that you must adapt to in order to continue succeeding?
The "Peter Principle" comes into play here: you know, the theory that we rise to our level of incompetence. Many have commented as you have, that Meade was a fine commander and continued to be so.
The more I examine the causes of the war and the conduct of the war, the more I'm tempted to believe that America was fated to this grueling, bloody conflict. I know this flies in the face of reason. What do you think?
You do have a wider area of responsibility with more factors to take into account. Some can handle it, some, like Custer, should never have an independent command. In the case of Meade after Gettysburg, He still had to maintain a position between the Confederates and DC, so he had to guarrd the South Mountain Gaps. He also had responsibility for the Confederate POWs, which, as a Division Commander, he just turned over to a higher authority. He also had to balance out the whle army, not just his division. He had to get casualty reports from his lower commanders (which at each step up, takes longer to get); as said elsewhere, Several of his Corps would need major restructuring just too give tham a command structure which would allow him to issue orders effectively. Sometimes an inexperienced or mediocre officer was the sole senior officer surviving for a major formation, and he would have to transfer someone else in from another unit to take command (without substantially weakening the donating unit). And some Corps had subordinate units scattered around the battlefield which had to be located and brought back together. The same applies to invividuals separated from their units in the fighting - the number of men available usualy climbed several days after the battle as men relocated their Division, brigade, regiment, down to their platoon (which might be down to a few men).
Remember that he knew Lee was hurt, but he did not know exactly how badly. For all that, Meade was not all that far behind Lee. The one thing I might have done, was ask for troops from Harpers Ferry and some of the Washington garrison to cross the Potomac and move upstream to force Lee to make an opposed crossing of the Potomac, but those troops were not under his control.
That'swhatinfuriated Lincoln! Somehow, Leegot ALlthe breaks!napoleon was particularlyfondofanalyzinghis opponents-andcarried estimatesoftheirskillandfightingsttitudesaroundwith him on campaign. But ultimately,heask his staff:"yes-BUTIE LUCKY?
Grant did not think Lee was the best soldier. Grant shades Lee as a commander because not only did he destroy the South in the west, in the last year of the Civil War he managed all of the Union armies. That included Sherman in the South and Sheridan in the Shenendoah Valley. Grant served in the field, supervising Meade, who was still commander of the Army of the Potomac, but he had his eye on the entirety of the Union campaign.
Good god the acting here is as good as it gets. I feel privileged and honored to have had the opportunity to sit in silent amazement as these golden geese of the screen actors gild put on a clinic.
Grant knew how to defeat Lee, Lee, by then, knew how to fight on the defensive. Grant won the war, but the price was absolutely horrendous. It's something every single American needs to know about.......
The north fought the entire war one handed. Look at everything else the government was engaged with during the conflict, from western expansion to scientific endeavors, to industrial growth, to continuing conflicts with native Americans; Had they truly brought everything to the table against the south, the war might have been over two years earlier. Even with the hope of foreign intervention, the south never had a chance!
@@williamanthony9090 Yeah, I'm not sure what he's getting at....Grant was on the offensive in the South the entire time ---of course his casualties were going to be higher. He had to win the war before the election could oust Lincoln, and he did. Lee on the other hand, butchered men that he couldn't spare--instead of fighting a guerrila campaign which would likely have drawn out the war until a cease fire could be signed. Even Lee said that Grant had managed the Virginia campaign remarkably well. Please stop @Darth Belal with the Lost Cause apologist rhetoric nonsense. The country has woken up to it.
@@williamanthony9090 Too many of the Union Generals bought their ocmmissions and were in the war purely to advance thair political careers. They was constant rivalries and back stabbing of each other. Too much politics involved.
So wrong; first, Grant was not 'brutal. He was a brilliant tactician far superior to Lee (through Grants generals sometimes failed him). Most his battles and certainly all his campaigns were extremely well thought out and some brilliant (battles to defeat the defenders of Vicksburg) - his military skills were far beyond Lee's. For example, both of Lee's ventures into the North were crude and had no real strategic plan that anyone could discern - they were doomed because he had no supply system nor real objective. Don't forget in the beginning of the war Lee was kicked out of and lost "western" Virginia in a series of battles - loosing one after another; ditto in the peninsular campaign - McClellan won all the battles and then, due to false intelligence, fled while on the cusp of victory. Lee even lost more men over the war than Grant! Continuing false narratives created by bad southern historians does not make it true.
@@kmccary Actually, over the entire war, Lee lost more men under his command then Grant did. That old false idea was created by southern historians.
I remember watching this on TV in the 80s when it was aired. Hal Holbrook did such a good job as President Lincoln.
hahahahaha He is absolutely horrible in this
With respect to both generals I think that Grant's experience in the West gave him a greater understanding of the continental perspectives involved, the strategy, movements and economics to control half a continent, where as Meade was more familiar with protecting the area around the Capitol's and trying to defeat Lee, Grant seen the problem in front of him and attacked it. Just my opinion. Love the history.Thx.
Greg-Good points. Let me add one other. In late July 1864, Lincoln and Grant meet at City Point. There is no record of what said, but from that point on, Washington DC was bypassed and Grant would run the war from City Point.
Lincoln had every right to be furious.
Ikr. Why the hell are the 19th century generals trash
Yes and now
Meades order where Stopp Lee from move to North
Not to invade the South
Meade was right
I consider Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain one of the colonels in the Union Army of the Potomacat Gettysburg. His regiment's defense of Little Round Top was an improvisational masterpiece that kept the AOP from losing at Gettysburg on the second day of the battle!
While Hal Holbrook isn't as tall as the real-life Lincoln was, he DOES look like him physically, so kudos to the makeup department; plus, Hal Holbrook isn't bad as Lincoln, IMO...
It’s hot as hell in D.C. in July. Why’s the stove going except to keep the coffee hot?
Lee knew he could not battle indefinitely. Time was an advantage of the north due to greater numbers of men and materials and factories and infrastructure. Lee's frontal assault on day three was not a result of his grandiose ego and his sadistic or psychopathic indifference to the inevitable suffering it would cause, rather it was a result of his generals being too passive and restrained on the first 24 hours of the battle and not taking full advantage of the available terrain positions, and following up with their advantage of rolling momentum. Lee was not left with any other options than a final full measure attack. He needed to destroy the Northern Army completely, and this was never going to be done by sitting behind defensive positions. A full route and the bounty of fresh horses, cannons, food and provisions would allow him to continue the attack and possibly win the war. Grant was the perfect general for the situation, because he used the numbing effects of alcohol to withstand the horrific emotional and psychological trauma of war. He routinely ordered his men to advance into certain slaughter, as it was the only option available, just as Lee had determined on day 3 at Gettysburg. And, if one studies Grants attacks upon Lee starting with the Wilderness through Petersburg, we can see that this war could only have been won with overwhelming numerical superiority in men and material, and with an unflinching will to order thousands of men into certain death and mutilation.
"War is hell." Gave you a "like" despite your brutal conclusion. Was it inevitable?
The more I learn about the Civil War, its causes and how it was conducted, the more it seems that this nation was fated to a grueling, bloody conflict. That flies in the face of reason, I know.
Lee could have used a Buford. Lincoln could have used a Lee. Lincoln got a Grant after years of painful experience. At the outset, Winfield Scott, the bloated, departing Chief of Staff, speculated the "Anaconda Plan" - a war of attrition. McClellan rejected the plan - and as much as I dislike McClellan - I probably would have agreed with him. No one wanted a protracted, bloody war.
But the elder Scott was right, and Grant, Sherman, and other Union commanders learned the hard way. Warfare had changed : there weren't going to be any more Agincourts and Waterloos.
You didn't use the word "inevitable"; I did. But it's almost as if America had to pay a price for its hypocrisy and hubris. Beyond the issue of slavery - which was huge - was our assertion that a form of government and a nation like ours could continue. I understand Lincoln didn't scribble his "Gettysburg Address" on a napkin on the train to Pennsylvania. And I recently saw a video suggesting that communists engineered the Civil War, that the Illuminati and like-minded folk supported the carnage to further their ends.
I don't know. I do know that we still have a propensity for "solving" our problems through violence. So how "enlightened" and "sophisticated" are we really?
You are almost entirely wrong. What Lee had to do is keep the war going long enough for the Peace candidates to win the next election. Had Lee not attacked at Gettysburg the North would not have had that victory. Gettysburg and the capture of Vickburg helped Lincoln ot win his second term. If lincoln doesnlt win the North would have sued for peace. The aggression of Grants pressure on lee was necessitate by the growing peace movement in the North. Had lee escaped he could have kept the war going and the north would have sued for a compromise peace. This war was faught as much politically as it was militarily.
Lincoln, like most civilians, had little or no comprehension of combat; its effects on the combatants or of the logistics of conducting a campaign.
His frustration is understandable but the reality of what remained of Meade's army was beyond his understanding.
Meade wasn't fired though. He was remained the commanding officer of the Army of the Potomac, so Lincoln had make the rank of a 4 star General so Grant could be the General in Chief of Union Forces.
Congress made Grant a three star general. The first three star since Washington. It was after the war was over that Grant got his fourth star.
@@WILTALK And at the end of 2022, he was promoted to General of the Armies.
Meade was promoted sideways which is a military insult.
Did he also get a pay raise?
Lincoln's tirade against Meade was written, filed in a desk drawer, and never delivered. Meade was commander of the Army of the Potomac for the rest of the war. Grant didn't become commander of the United States Army for another eight months, another argument that Lincoln got over his tantrum fairly quickly.
Actor playing Lincoln ...excellent portrayal 🎭🖼
I agree! Hal Holbrook is his name, and I'd say he's by far the best Lincoln portrayer
@@georgiapatriot13097 could be friend
@@georgiapatriot13097 Daniel Day-Lewis
Sorry, this is Hal Holbrook in the role of Lincoln, not Daniel Day Lewis, who had the lead role in the 2012 movie Lincoln...(Holbrook did appear as Senator F. Preston Blair in that same movie). Holbrook played Lincoln at least twice, in the 1970s TV miniseries "Carl Sandbergs' Lincoln", and again in the 1980s miniseries North and the South, & the North & South ll. Nothing against Mr. Holbrook, but I've always been sold on Gregory Peck to have played the best Lincoln.
@@waistgunner3930 Thanks ...wouldn't mind driving 🚗 a new Lincoln 😁
I have to go and correct this: Meade was never fired from his command. Grant was to assume command of all federal forces which he did. Meade has the commanding general for the Army of the Potomac. As for Grant's drinking well whatever the case may be he did pound the CSA into submission although he did it in a barbaric manner. But that is a discussion for another day.
Anthony Ingersoll nobody cares okay far as I'm concerned General Grant enforced Title 18 USC 8 treason however he did not enforce all of it at means hanging for all the commanding General's including Lee and of course he did not enact the military uniform code of justice do UCMJ aiding and abetting the enemy and many other sections covering f****** traders who resigned that commissioned to attack their country so I give General Lee in a for effort and that's all everything else he fell that shipping a massive trial and then shipping a massive hanging go see the movie Josey will and which all the Confederate soldiers that Serenity arm and got executed go see that scene in that movie you can find on UA-cam that's what should have been done for petranek country and for firing the first shot to attack their government you don't have to be loyal to the government but damn it if you are an officer in the armed forces and you resigned to go fight with Al-Qaeda against your country your a f****** God damn traitor similar situation same way right here General Lee resigned his Commission so he can put on the flag and the lapel of another country in a different uniform against the country he was born in I'm sick of people trying to defend the Confederacy
Thebasicstrategywasny barbaric, just ruthless and practical. Granthimself regretted the casualtieshetookin frontal attacksondug-in rebs!Butthen, the Union won some frontal attacks dug-in rebs(at Lookout Mountain,forexample(which brolethe Armyofh mississippi)so suppose grant COULDhaveclaimedhe took a calculated riskbecausrthe benefitsofsuccessoutweighedthe potentialvostofa loss. Weveryonewho witnessedthe union assault the fesrfullysteep Lookout Mountain thoughtitwas madness-untilyhe blue troops keptgoingupthe steep hilsuntil they crested the tip anddrovethereb rmyallthewayto Alabama!So Granthad resin to believe couldbedone-andeventuallyhebrokethrough Lee's WW1 style lines Petersburg,which ledtothr ?confederate government's great Skedaddlethrough countryseeminglyfullof CSA zroopsin garrisonsanf guard detachments. to read accounts Jeff Davis' flight through Southern virginia, yo'd think the confederatescouldstillhaveraised a dangerous force from the bitsand pieces that continued operate until Jeff Davisandhis entouragebroughtnewsofthe confederate dissolution!Bythe time Davis gaveitup anddismissedhisescort, head whole brigadeofcavalryandtheschool battalionsofthe CSAmilitaryandnaval academies with him!Fully mobilized countriesdon'y just evaporate when theirsrmiesaare destroyedinbattle-as withRometherewerestukkalotof rebel soldiers formed bodieslongafter Lee beat feetoutofyhey Petersburg linesand Jeff Davis bolted for Mexico!Alotofthe CSAcontinuedto operate,businessas usual-until Davisbroughtthr newsofthe fallof Richmonf with him!
Hey Abe, Meade just fought a brutal 3 day battle and suffered 21,000 casualties followed by a driving rain storm that would have made a counter attack difficult at best. Meade held on to command of the Army of the Potomac until the end of the war, Grant was made commander of all Union armies and he and Meade had a good working relationship.
Because everyone else is already discussing the big stuff: To those not familiar with American apple cider, we make ours alcohol free, whether that makes it better or worse to those kinds brewed with it I will leave you to decide.
multi-great uncle Johnny (appleseed)made fortune out of applejack in tgearlt nineteenth century. He'd buy likely patchofground, plantain applrorchard,anf mkeadeal witha local to look afterthetreesan collective apples' he mightfinancean all press with another lacalto pressoutthe juiceanf barrelthe juicentilitreachedfullpotency. Then you could sellthestufffora healthy pile per barrel-wjichwaseasierto ship east than mostofthefrontier'sother products!
From a scene detail observation, as this was in July in Washington D.C., when Lincoln was tasking the colonel to go talk to Grant, why was there a fire in the corner stove and the lamps lit during daylight hours?
0:46 the guy in the background to the right, his eyebrows make him look so angry LMAO
While Lincoln‘s frustration is understandable after two years of McClellan, Burnside and Hooker, what he‘s asking simply isn‘t practical for an Army in the American Civil War. After a full-on engagement, never mind three days of it, not only are your men physically exhausted and the entire army out of ammunition, you‘re also more than likely looking at having to reorganize all your units and basically put them back together after the chaos of battle. People think all of that just happened automatically, but no, it takes time. That also involves replacing your dead and wounded officers, which in the Civil War became casualties at alarming rates and at Gettysburg Meade had lost several of his Corps Commanders alone.
Demanding that Meade immediately pursue Lee after the battle is just as impractical of say, demanding the same thing of Grant after Shiloh (which has also been done). It‘s not a coincidence that battles during the Civil War, even decisive ones, rarely led to the wholesale destruction of the entire losing army, and logistics are a major reason for that.
It‘s easy to ignore logistics after the fact and demand that General X should have moved faster, but the reality is usually different. There were exceptions of course, like McClellan sitting on the Antietam battlefield for Months. But Meade was no McClellan. He moved very quickly when it came to pursuing Lee into Pennsylvania and made very good use of his armies‘ resources to gain an advantage and force Lee into battle on his terms-much more than any Previous General of the AOP had done. But continuing the pursuit after a battle where you lost a third of your forces is a very different matter. Lincoln quickly realized this, which is why Meade kept his command for the rest of the war.
I will add that the Army of the Potomac had spent the last 6 days pursuing Lee by the time they got to Gettysburg. They were in Virgina on June 25, in Frederick, MD on June 27 and around Emmitsburg/Taneytown by June 30. On July 1, they converged on Gettysburg with the I & XI Corps going into battle directly from the march, in some cases not even getting time to load their weapons. The rest of the Army, arriving later, had marched a longer distance that day and moved directly into defensive positions on arrival.
Wow that's the most realistic looking Lincoln I've ever seen actually looks like the real Lincoln
Akashi record picture of Abraham Lincoln, maybe real life he looks like not much so they use Akashi picture 😇 ok hopefully he can understand even actor picture copycat of Akashi record picture 😇 ok
Too bad it doesn't sound like him. By all accounts he was soft-spoken
from what I have read; grant stated Joe Johnston was the best southern general, at least by the end of the war.
One of Grant’s advantages in the West was that he had the best army of the war-the Army of the Tennessee and at Vicksburg his corps commanders were Sherman, Ord and McPherson. Why even McClernand was a better corps commander than Howard, Sickles, Sedgewick, Slocum, Newton and Sykes were. And at Chattanooga Grant had the other great Midwestern army as well, the Army of the Cumberland. But when Grant went east his instruments were the poorly functioning armies of the Potomac and James. Though by the end of the war with help from Westerners Sheridan and Ord, and with new energetic corps commanders (Wright, Humphreys, Parke, Griffin, Gibbon and Weitzel) Grant had those armies tuned up and and very efficient.
Howard wasn't a bad general, he just had the shittiest Corp in the AoP. He did well in the west; in fact when Sherman took the best of his generals and soldiers to Savannah, Howard was one of them. (Thomas, probably his second best commander, took the AoC to Nashville.)
How could you forget Hancock? He was arguably the best general of the entire war. It was his ability that saved the Federal army from destruction on July 2 thanks to Sickles' bonehead move
The man knows his history and corp commanders. Hats off to you
0:46
"Moo"-Abraham Lincoln July 4th, 1863
No one gets to be an Admiral or A General alone .
It takes being a special person to surround themselves with people who may be smarter than you.
The organization of such people and the implementation of policy is what takes skill .
Meade should be appreciated. He is one of my favorite generals of the Civil War.
Everyone knows Lincoln had a high pitched voice but all the movies give him a deep voice to make him seem more authoritative.
Same with General Patton.
The Patton effect!
This is from the series North and South, based upon the books of John Jakes, starring patrick swayze, made in the 1980s, in which halbrook reprises his role as Lincoln. You might also recognize the Grant actor as Anthony Zerbe who also played the villainous General on Star Trek Insurrection. Halbrook played Lincoln earlier int he 70s in a series called Lincoln.
Hal Holbrook was absolutely REMARKABLE as Lincoln. There have been a couple of really good ones but Holbrook was truly my favorite.
Yet it feels rather amusing now how people assumed what Lincoln's voice sounded like when we know now that Daniel Day Lewis captured the true high pitch of that President's voice.
@kchishol1970 It's NOT all about voice
I wonder why Grant and George Hazard didn't reminisce about their West Point days or make that connection? Early on in this miniseries they interacted at West Point.
Both armies were worn out and Lee was still extremely dangerous.
Butthe union cavalry had scoredoneofitsfirst victories over Jeb stuartandhad taken only light losses and meade was ablate spare wholedivisionto pickup the deadened woundedangenerallyscavengethe battlefield!I'dsuggest lincoln was thinking that all those expensive troopers-including Rush's Pennsylvania lanversand New Jrersey'sAmericsn hussars could and shouldhsvrebeen ablate stop Lee'sweary walkersasthey sloggedthroughthe mudtothe nearest safe fordbackto Virginia!mostofwhat stopped Picket'schargewasstillintact-perhaps Meadewas worriedbiutreplacingthe senior officers atto restorethearmy's chain of command. Hewas still newton commandhimselfandhad some ideaofhowlongit wouldtakrfornewly promoted Brigadiersabd Major generalist reallyunderstandwhatthey noecommanded!He'd just eon the first great victoryofthewaroverLeein stand-uo fightandperhapsdodn'ywntto risk areversebypressingafter Leeto destructon, as Lincoln wanted t. The Union, after all, hadcanother whole army group out Westandthrerailroadsneededto get it back east pronto, if needed!If meadewantedto restore the Army, Lincoln wanted restore the Union-bydrivinga stakethroughthe heartofthecSA's principle fightingforcewhilritoff bsalanceandweighed down with meson wagon train caryingits wounded!
Mark Weaver Yes....very dangerous. Had Meade followed up and pushed on through a fourth day, the two armies would only bloodied each other to a stalemate. Lincoln should’ve realized by that stage of the contest that Lee, Longstreet, Stuart could not be so easily corralled.
@@casualobserver3145 Meade's VI Corps (his largest, mind you), that of Sedgwick, had been entirely unengaged at Gettysburg. Furthermore, a large force of militia under Union Maj. Gen. Darius Couch was in the area. All I think Meade had to do was link up with Couch, detach all of his least bloody brigades into a separate (say, IV) Corps, and he would suddenly have had more than enough men to mount an effective pursuit of Lee. Heck, after East Cavalry Field, Meade should have detached Pleasonton to seize all viable crossings on the Potomac and delay any crossing until the AotP (marching with the three Corps I described above in the lead) arrived to force Lee into the river.
Very true. The prime opportunity at the Potomac was certainly there. But how many times before were there both opportunity and man power yet at the moment of truth (Hooker just before Chancellorsville) did things turn in Lee’s favor. Had he been in charge then, Grant might’ve doggedly chewed him but I don’t believe Meade, etal had what it took. It may have turned into what happened so many times before....another squandered opportunity.
@@casualobserver3145 I do not recall another time where there was (at once) opportunity, manpower, and an enemy on the back foot with no fresh reserve.
Hal Holbrook plays Lincoln here. He does a great job and his make-up was
superb! RIP to Hal (and to Lincoln).
love grant -- super underrated leader
Grant actually took fewer casualties in purely offensive operations than Lee did. Even counting Cold Harbor.
What's funny is they accused Grant of being a drunkard, yet the Army of the Potomac was chalk full of half-wit major generals (like French for example) who were completely sodden most of the time. Officers could obtain 'medicinal whiskey' from the commissary while enlisted could be punished for having it. Many times an NCO would obtain whiskey charging it to so and so officer without their knowledge. Some ingenious Confederates kept their hooch stashed in a hollowed out watermelon that they buried underneath their tent to which they would stick straws in when they felt like imbibing some.
Also, these seems to lend belief that Grant also deified Lee, when the contrary is more true. Although he respected Lee he believed his success was more due to the incompetency of Grants predecessors.
well that doesn't discount the previous commanders mind you, remember Grant kept quite a few commanders on like Meade. And fired those who had little on the way of merit, Grant and Sherman are the first modern generals with Grants administrative skill and Sherman's tenacious offensives.
Meade was actually horribly under rated, and Lincoln really did him poorly after Gettysburg. Meade did in fact move pretty quickly but Lee's army had an inside line on the march.
President Lincoln here is obviously channeling his inner Chancellor Gowran.
The sixth and twelfth corps were still relatively fresh. The Confederates only had Mahone's brigade and Posey's brigade. Missed opportunity
I think we all agree it was a missed opportunity. To me the question is, "Was it unreasonable, even inexcusable, that Meade didn't press harder to wreck Lee's forces?" Lee's reputation was not undeserved, and Gettysburg exposed a desperate man. Suppose Meade had pressed and been caught in a trap? Today we can talk about Lee being trapped by the swollen Potomac and a retreating column that stretched for miles. Still, if you're tired and you corner a tired, desperate foe, can you guarantee that your willpower will overcome his willpower?
You mention two relatively fresh Union corps. Gettysburg was a devastating clash that drained everyone involved. I was referring to Meade's mind-weariness, not the availability of two fresh corps. It must have been something to behold "Pickett's Charge" after two days of desperate fighting. I'd bet Union commanders felt fortunate to avoid being routed despite superior numbers and better field position.
@@cedricgist7614 Meade should have gone on to a Day 4. Lee didn't move out until July 5. He was in situ 24 additional hours. Meade thought (erroneously) that by repulsing Pickett's Charge he had crippled the ANV and that was enough. But as you said, Lee was a wounded dog. He should have been put out of his misery.
AgreeMahonewasa scrapper,whosedivision heldtogetherrven onthe marchto A[ppomsttox. Eye witnessessaidthey still looked likea fighting force,even in the downpoursofrain andthe deep mud Lee's peoplestruggledthrough, trying to get homrto Virginia!
That is a fine performance as Lincoln by actor Hal Holbrook.
While Lee only had to worry about leading the Army of Northern Virginia against Grant, Grant had to worry about leading the entire Union army plus fight against Lee. Grant understood better than Lee the use of modern weaponry and how they changed the tactics of war. Lee was fighting a largely defensive war yet had more casualties than Grand did fighting an offensive war, the opposite of what would be expected. Grant was the finer general.
Better check the records. Grant had twice the casualties that Lee did in the 1864 Overland Campaign
don't know if its true or not but apparently when Lincoln was told that Grant was not fit for command cause he drinks Lincoln said
" find out what whisky that man drinks and send a barrel to each of my generals"
(After watching video)
I stand corrected😅
Lee was brilliant in the way he was able to slip away from Gettysburg and back to Virginia almost unnoticed in the aftermath of the battle. However, while it was a successful retreat, too many good men had been lost there for the Army of Northern Virginia to ever recover from. Losing Stonewall Jackson the year before was already the first in a series of signs that the end was coming for the Confederacy.
If Lee had listened to Longstreet and taken the defensive, sooner or later Meade would have had to attack or retreat. An attack might have proved as ruinous to Meade as Pickett's charge was to Lee. The death of Stonewall Jackson took away Lee's alter ego and Lee could never accept Longstreet's cautious counsel, which he should have done at Gettysburg.
@@parsnip82 Lee did not intend to fight a battle at Gettysburg but both armies were drawn into a meeting engagement.
If the Union Troops had won on the first day - then it would have been Lee on the defensive - but the Confederates won the first day and drove the Union Troops into defensive positions up on the ridge.
This put Lee into an offensive mode. The Army was attacking the Union and thought they were winning. So - he didn't want to call them off.
Yes - he should have - but that is why he didn't.
He thought he was winning right up until Pickett's Charge.
Here - he was thinking to do like Napoleon had done - when he drew off the Austrians reserves first to one flank and then to the other - leaving them vulnerable in the center. The thing is - Napoleon did all that in one day - Lee had done it over two days - and the North had had troops coming in the whole time.
The South was like the Germans fighting the Russians in WWII. One side had a better army but the other had vastly more men.
The side with the better army could keep on winning time after time - but - they could never afford to suffer a major defeat.
The Side with the larger army could suffer defeat after defeat after defeat - and still not lose because they could always replace their losses and provide reinforcements as well.
There were 600,000 dead in the Civil War. 400,000 Union losses and 200,000 Confederate losses.
The South with the better army inflicted twice the casualties on the Union - but it didn't matter. They never really stood a chance. It was just the superior nature of their Generals and Soldiers that let them win - but they couldn't keep it up - and the North could.
.
"too many good men had been lost there for the Army of Northern Virginia to ever recover"
Good men? Traitors you mean, who did more harm to the United States than
all our other enemies in all other wars combined.
These slobs would have been first in line cheering on the swine in MAGA caps attacking OUR capitol.
Marse Robert should rot in hell with Benedict Arnold, Jeff Davis and eventually that lard ass Orange
Boy.
Picketts Charge was stupid
Lincoln's surviving son once said that Raymond Massey had his father's voice and mannerisms (Massey played a starring role in a movie about Lincoln). Imitate Massey, and you've got a good Lincoln...
Thanks for that tidbit. You see, long before Daniel Day-Lewis' portrayal, I'd heard or read that Lincoln's voice was higher pitched than the popular portrayals prior - including Massey's.
So, you found a source that says Lincoln's youngest favored Massey's portrayal down to the voice. I think I saw the Massey version once, decades ago.
Thanks for sharing this.
Where is this from?
Realize that as George Washington has been called “the saver” of our country (by Noah Webster), so Grant could and should be recognized as “the saver” of our country in his conflict. This is significant; for Lincoln, in spite of historians’ sentiment for him, was not the saver of our Union, since he would have lost the 1864 election had it not been for the victories earlier in September of Sherman and Sheridan, subordinates of Grant carrying out his orders.
Furthermore, would you wish that there would be another Grant in another war on American soil? There will be. He will be the third and last saver of our Union in the upcoming war of succession. To those of you still alive at that time: Would you give him moral support all along, which neither Washington nor Grant received until toward the end of the wars? See that you do!
Read more about this in the article: “What Events will occur prior to the coming War?”
Gene Urtel -The Rivertown Press
You mean “savior”.
What I dont understand bout this scene was that there was no mention of Grants capture of Vicksburg Mississippi on July 4 1863
I wonder if, in addition to whiskey, Grant drank meade.
Grant Williams lol
Touche'
Buddumpum
There's always someone....
In the words of Robin Williams....ar, ar, ar
This is from the TV miniseries called North and South. Patrick Swayze stared in it.
James Read is the actor playing Lincoln's military aide and messenger. He was the "North" to Swayze's "South". This was actually from the follow up miniseries to "North and South" I believe.
@@GoGreen1977 Yes it was the follow up miniseries.
And it was based of off the novel by John Jakes.
That is the best looking Lincoln I have ever seen.
What movie is this?
Jack McCall And the shortest.
It's from the TV Series "North and South".
grantss1 Thank you
Jack McCall Lincoln is played by actor Hal Holbrook.
Best Lincoln was Sam Waterston in Gore Vidal's Lincoln.
And the rest is history, thank God.
Lincoln realized mead did a wonderful job after he settled down, and he did do a wonderful job,after all the failed generals before him!
Plus he won the biggest battle ever fought on the North American continent
Is that Jared Harris playing Grant? He nailed the part. Great job!
No, it's Anthony Zerbe
One of my favorite "tall tales" about Lincoln (I have no sources to confirm its accuracy) is that when Lincoln was told that Grant drank whiskey before battle, Lincoln is said to have asked, "Do you know what brand he drinks?" The person replied, "No, Mr. President, I do not." Lincoln responded, "Well, if you find out, let me know. I want to send a barrel of it to all my other generals."
That's the most convincing potraial of Abraham Lincoln I have seen anybody know the name of the actor 🤔
Grant won because he was a realist. He knew he couldn't out think Lee, so he decided to just go toe to toe and slug it out. He and Lee both knew how that was going to end.
Stop with this Lee was a superior general trope. Most modern historians and military generals acknowledge Grant as on of the greatest generals the USA ever produced. They still study his Vicksburg campaign. He was the first modern general.
@@WILTALK Yes, I believe someone said that Lee's talent was at winning battles, but Grant's was at winning wars.
@@kchishol1970 When Lee had to actually think of strategies, they were losing ones
He did outthink Lee, who was a traitor and a terrorist.