I will buy the new RTX 5090 Ti Super and its not because I love nVidia, nah, I already have had two 4090's but lets be honest, buying flagship GPU's is the smart choice, you save money logically because of the simple reasons that it will perform better, I had my 4090's for 2 years and its been stellar but they are showing their age now hopefully the 5090 Ti Super will be similar price as I had to sell my sister off to Chinese farmers to afford it.
@@SMGJohn gotta thank nvidia for doing an amazing job on 4090 but now it’s time for the 5090… i can’t wait to use all the amazing features on that beast!!
@@SMGJohn "Showing their age" No. You just want more. More more more. Endlessly. The best isn't enough you need TWO of the best and even that's not enough you need MORE. You need what isn't even out yet. "Showing their age"...SMH
I love how camm2 not only (potentially) provides speed - latency benefits, but also looks cooler with flat heatsink and eliminates compatibility issues with CPU coolers and ram sticks
The problem is that if you want to increase the memory of it, you have to buy an entirely new one instead of just adding another pair of ram sticks. Yes, potentially you could sell the old one to mitigate the cost of the new one, but still...
Call me crazy, but I can see us heading towards motherboards with integrated RAM. Camm is better than DIMMs. But, it's also a tiny bit less modular than regular DIMMs. (Screw down design, single module) Not saying it's definite. But it's a personal worry.
@@TTM1895 personally don't see a problem here. For budget and extreme budget builders there always be an upgrade path with additional ram kit (though they can lose some of performance or stability if they will mix and match different kits and increase stress on IMC by populating all dimm slots), for workstations I guess it's possible to make two or more camm2 slots, and for people who is willing to get maximum performance it's not going to be an issue since they are most likely ready to spend enough money to get that performance
Adding sticks of ram on DDR5 is not recommended because if you go beyond 2 sticks, it becomes slower. So it's a non-argument. You sell the old and buy a new one.
Slowly getting to a future where the whole motherboard just has one massive block all over it. Then the next step is just throwing all your parts into water and it making a computer soup in your case.
I am really curious as i see less memory chips and i have seen no word about dual channel and quad channel. So in theory it can be worse despite a higher frequency.
With M.2 usually occupying the top PCIe slot space, and CAMM memory, there will be room for monster air coolers on a lot of boards if this takes off (although JEDEC are saying "no screws" so this likely will not be the final form). The design freedom CAMM offers is worth it alone, all else being equal. This is one of the problems BTX was intended to solve.
Well they must have changed a lot. Admittedly this is a 15-20yr old anecdote (vague on purpose), but MSI support was so bad for me, even as a major OEM, that I was responsible for killing that entire relationship. Was having personal and professional issues getting them to honor their warranties and it escalated wildly. That break up was only for a few years but it was shameful how resistant they were to replace anything, ever, for any reason, no matter how large a customer you were. This is why companies need to not be complete shit heads about this because they could have been 100% great for the past 10 years but I still think they are a POS for their past actions. Trust is hard to regain.
If CAMM2 can show better performance - that's an easy question to answer, most of people will be for it. Show the frequencies and timings it can pull of :-)
It will probably still be somewhat held back by ddr5 needing to support both dimm and camm. If ddr6 fully embraces camm we might see a huge leap in functional speeds as a wider bus should be possible.
What we need is CHANNELS. Even casuals notice the increase in responsiveness of 8 channel Macbook or Snapdragon X. It's also crucial for LLMs. PC needs to keep up or x86 will be left behind. It's absurd that a high end gaming desktop is only dual channel like 20 years ago, but some laptops are now 8. Raw bandwidth is not everything.
On package ram makes connecting all of those wide memory busses popular but at the expense of no expandibility, we've had tri and quad channel in HEDT before, the extra bandwidth made little to no difference and the main problem will still be latency
The main flaw I see with the CAMM module is the lack of upgradeability. You can't gradually add more memory as you get more money. Each time you'll have to fully replace the older CAMM module and go through the hassle of selling it on ebay or sth. The second problem I see with it is that smaller capacity modules will become obsolete very quickly and will end up as e-waste. An 8GB DIMM on its own is obsolete today for most gaming setups. But in a 8GB x 4 configuration totalling 32GB, it is still a viable option. The same can't be said for the CAMM module. Once it's obsolete, it can't be repurposed as easily, maybe for a NAS or home server, but not for gaming.
It is a downside with CAMM2. You can not add new modules. If you want more memory you have to get a new CAMM2 module and replace the older one. So at least plan for this when buying one. I have a feeling that OEMs will try to sell you the smallest CAMM2 they can get in order to save some money, probably 16GB. And you will have to cash out for a new 32GB module if needed
@@houssamalucad753 Except that the most common reason to upgrade is when you current hardware is lackluster. Meaning that OEM build will have cheap memory nobody want and that will become instant e-waste.
@@Vaasref not really, there is always a market for used parts, maybe you don't get close to how much you paid, but it means your hardware doesn't go to the garbage, and memory is still replaceable which is always a win in my book looking at how laptop manufacturers are doing things
Single channel CAMM2 modules are stackable, they use only half of the connector. So you can upgrade to dual channel by adding another module. And single channel modules will have lowest capacity, DC modules are twice as big with same dram ICs.
Roman was showing off some off the CAMM2 stuff from Gskill and I believe they had one that was rated at 10500. Sweet. Can't wait to see these new designs/technology.
I remember when everything was soldered onto the motherboard. We then saw things become modular so you could plug ram etc into the board and configure things easily, to suit yourself. We now have pins and connection types that are so fragile, they really would be better off just soldering them during production. That's progress for you.
The most impressive thing I saw was that they had the foresight to make the CAMM layout footprint double the width of the current memory module on display. That will allow us to put in much larger modules with ease in the future and not require serious side-step engineering. Much like the NVME standard that allows for longer and shorter modules. Same concept entirely. Good design IMO.
It's pretty cool that system integration seems to be a bit of a focus this year. Lots of simplifying connections and reducing cable clutter etc. Good to see.
Interesting. That kind of socket for the ram could be allocated on the back of the motherboard and release a lot of room from the front, which could be useful in itx form factor
CAMM2 will severely limit upgradability. It takes too much horizontal space, there is no chance of double sided modules. It is good for laptops but on desktops where vertical space is not a big problem, this is not a good solution. Unless manufacturers move most other connectors to the backside like that MSI board which came a while ago.
one of those areas where we peaked ages ago for general computing. faster ram will always be niche benefit unless you’re running something from the stone age. Jedec on the current standard is almost always more than enough if you’re not a frame chaser.
@@H94R RAM is, in fact, the main bottlenecks of every PC today. If it was possible to decrease RAM latency from 200 cycles to at least 10 cycles (L2 cache speed), a build with RTX 4090 and some Intel Sandy Bridge CPU would be limited exactly by a GPU even in 1080p... If you wanna see a proof of my words, try to assemble some x86 program that interacts with GPU only through registers. You'll see if CPU is not bandwidth limited, it's far far far more powerful if used to its fullest.
I was able to pull a couple frames faster in some games between overclocked ram and non-overclocked. So it does make a difference. I’ve never noticed my computer “feeling faster” though.
@@robertobokarev439My point was that a modern system running jedec will feel the same as running 8400mhz. O.P specifically referenced the general feel of his pc after ram speed change. obviously high compute tasks are different, but that’s not most people.
I love it that CAM memory from laptops is coming to Desktop to replace DIMM. That should improve crosstalk on the RAM bus to allow even higher frequencies. Hope to see it come to AM5 in future. Fuzion pronounced as Fussy-on. ;) More please!
The pro-CAMM2 comments forget that to upgrade from 16GB to 32GB, you have to replace the 16GB with a 32GB board, so you are left with a worthless 16GB board that initially costs around $150. The 32GB CAMM2 is expected to retail at around $280. So, CAMM2 is not a cost-effective option for most who want modular design (a cheap route to upgrade from base RAM config). In time, with economies of scale, the price may fall, but they will still remain much more expensive than DIMM as you will need to buy the same RAM you already have due to the board design rather than simply buying an extra RAM module. Okay, if you are buying in case, RAM needs upgrading to higher speeds or you worry about RAM failure, both are not really what most people care about--as stated, most want modular RAM for cheap upgrading.
I’m really glad we’re seeing innovations in memory. We need higher memory bandwidth. If they can increase memory bandwidth while maintaining replaceability then that’s great!
id much rather have this than any onboard SOC or LPDDRX ram, this is the best of every world, I hope Arrow Lake and Lunar Lake both get support. Imagine these with DDR6-21600, going to be insane
Great to see the innovations that these companies are working on. The memory redesign is probably the biggest out of them all. Will be interesting to see how it performs in reality versus what we currently have.
"premium feature" Looks like all the motherboard manufacturers got together in a smoke filled room with cigars and decided to gate a cheap to add feature (7 segment displays) behind a +$200 paywall to force you into buying higher.
MSI did me dirty with AM4, by being one of the only vendors who didn't allow for the functioning of ECC ram on their boards. Love my X570 MEG UNIFY, but had to go out and buy an el-cheapo Asrock B550M just to be able to do an ECC ram build. Probably will give them a miss when I buy a board for 9950X.
Hey, I'm really interested in building an ECC setup too! Can you give me some advice? Are there any boards with full ECC support (not just able to work with them without actually using ECC), what brands/models? What are the caveats?
@@vinylSummer If you google there are some good lists of AM4 boards that support the actual functioning of ECC ram. But generally, you're safe with Asrock, I know that much. Even cheaper boards like the B550M Pro4. As for ram, I use the Kingston 32GB 3200mhz (KSM32ED8/32HC). Caveat for a non-server board is that the ECC ram needs to be Unbuffered ECC ram, not registered.
It'd be nice if MSI could engineer a way to eliminate the screws needed for securing CAMM2 in a way similar to that neat m.2 release of theirs. Using four of those locking mechanisms might be tricky to use, but they could maybe have one edge of the module insert into a slot with springs, similar to m.2 slot, then have just two locking mechanisms at the corners of the opposite edge. There could also be posts that stick through the module's screw holes to provide extra stability. This is just me speculating and brainstorming, but I have to think that the MSI engineers could devise something that would be more user friendly than screws.
CAMM2 memory looks amazing. SO-DIMM is fraught with problems. Being low profile and easy to repair is a bonus. Now we might get to see what DDR5 is actually capable of on the desktop with this.
I mean it takes more horizontal space on the motherboard itself, the space where otherwise traces and all other small components would be located, which especially on ITX motherboards is very limited. 2 RAM slots on a ITX motherboard takes significantly less actual motherboard space than the new form factor.
@@corylyon545 yeah and another thing is- with 2 or 4 vertical ram slots (the conventional ones) it is possible to have significantly higher RAM capacity. Each of the 4 RAM sticks can be equipped with RAM chips on both sides. On the new form factor there's physically much less space to put RAM chips on it compared to 4 sticks with RAM chips on both sides. The new form factor was mainly designed for Laptops and it does make sense there, because the aim with laptops is to make them slimmer. For PC this is not that big of a factor. Overall the new form factor is not an improvement for PCs and I doubt that it will be the new standard in the future. The conventional RAM slots offer more advantages like higher capacity, taking less space on the actual motherboard itself, easier installation, easier cooling etc.
It's interesting to see new forms of Ram chips and things like that. It got me thinking when I clicked on this video, about how many standards we still use in our PCs that are likely extremely outdated.
The last thing I was expecting was a change in RAM form factor. I like what they have done with the M.2 modular design on the new board. Looks very Sci-Fi.
It looks perfect for ITX motherboards. since it would give more space for new wider cpu coolers that couldn't be done before because of dimm slots but allow for a bigger heatsink+fan in small builds to increase what cpu can go into SFF builds. Imagine the higher end cpu that can be cooled properly in a tiny cramp space.
Gonna be honest... that quick release, super easy m.2 slot lock (or whatever the correct term is), and that snap-on Wi-Fi antenna on these boards are definitely going to be factors when I upgrade next. Not sure about CAMM2 yet though; it'll either be amazing or annoying. Definitely will need to see it in the "wild" before I have a solid stance on that. Let's hope they aren't all priced outside of my price range when I'm in the market.
I wish mobo manufactures would put the WiFi and BT antenna at the top of the I/O, and have the antenna attach directly to the rear. It's just much cleaner
It is more expensive for now, 180 bucks for 32 GB of LPCAMM2. (LPCAMM2 is a smaller form factor for laptops, but with same conector) Due to low volume, the only laptop that uses camm now is the P1 thinkpad gen 7.
@@rj7250a Low volume is always going to be expensive. If they can start to scale the production to even half of ddr5 sales volume, it should come down in price quite a lot
Do MSI boards still install the Nahimic malware if you enable the onboard sound device? That crap is almost impossible to remove from your PC, unless you have expert level computer knowledge. It will also automatically re-install and re-enable itself unless you nuke every trace of it and blacklist it's device ID in the registry.
But do they come with a capable VRM...? I've been stung by MSI with the £300+ x570 boards, claiming top tier component support, but the VRM couldn't handle the higher core counts at stock never mind when using PBO
RAM design really hasn't changed that much in decades as it's been a long thin slot in piece for so long so going to CAMM2 is huge. I really like it as it can provide very fast speeds and tons of capacity all on a single piece that's still interchangeable. I really hope this becomes the new standard as it's definitely an improvement.
that's the first time in a long time i see really useful features on usability, the PCIE release tab has been a nightmare for a long time, next will be the atx psu mainboard connector and the front panel jumpers
Yes, the MSI motherboards are offering some newer improvements once released for socket LGA 1851 socket. Now that the Intel 15th generation is coming to market along with MB’s, I am not finding from MSI’s website for the CAMM2 version which was Project Zero PLUS. Would anyone have information on whether MSI is actually proceeding with this MB production and when it will be available to the consumer? Thanks for all information who are in the know!
They still probably won't be 10GBE on these boards. Going to have to pop in a Mellanox NIC as per usual. Will be only considering boards with 3 x16 form PCI, so I can do GPU/NIC/HBA controller. Sad to see that the trend is to gimp on PCI slots.
Considering 10Gb NICs are like $100, pretty sure your average consumer doesn't want that standard on all boards just yet. Also, gonna have a hard time finding PCI slots, since the standard was superseded decades ago. 😜
@@BlueDrew10 The express in the PCIe was so fast that it did a John Cena on you, sorry ;) But to be serious, 2.5GB / 5GB is such a rubbish standard to have on motherboards, but I'm also someone who has been rocking SFP+ 10GB NICs for over 5 years now. Gotta love those cheap Mellanox Connect-X3 NICs.
@@gaijinismybae 2.5Gb/5Gb is rubbish? 99% of users wouldn't utilize more than that. The 1% that will can buy a PCIe NIC. The one you mentioned is cheaper than I've seen, but still not cheap enough to be included in entry level mobos.
@@BlueDrew10That's old head thinking. Doesn't matter what % makes use of it. 10GB should be the standard. But yes, too many basic people out there that only use their PC for gaming or some other single purpose, when they should be using things like Proxmox or gaming in a VM (no, have never had an issue with any game while being in a VM) on UnRaid, etc. Anyway, I've seen some good looking boards coming with adequate slots to fit GPU/HBA/NIC, so I'm sorted.
I wonder if intel will do some sort of tiered memory given their new SoC designs post lunar lake that have on soc memory, to allow adding expandable high bandwidth memory with camm2. Maybe for desktop workstations?
Even with CAMM2 on the front, given the low profile it should still allow for more heatsink clearance if someone wanted to make one that only worked with CAMM.
CAMM2 is looking very interesting, I'm hoping it becomes the standard that replaces DDR because of the advantages, but standards changing can take forever.
I wonder if they were originally planning to misspell "fusion" with an X and then realised that might not be such a good idea. I'll just call it The Fuzzy-On. Or The Fuzz Ion.
Will be interesting if we can see CAM2 contributing to AM5 being able to reach higher memory timings/bandwidth, or if the limiting factor is the zen 4/5 memory controller. What are the MB manufacturers saying behind closed doors Steve/Tim?
Is the recent ryzen memory controller even able to address cam memory? I was under the impression that so far only the G models can do that (basically APU Chips)
This CAM2 motherboard should come with at least 2 slots. One on the front and maybe one at the back. Or anywhere else. With one unique socket is hard to recomend it for anyone that does not have the final budged already available. Like we do with DDR now. It is way batter then soldered. But if you want to upgrade your memory you have to sell it or transform it in a fancy paper weight
I am one who would like some follow up content focusing on camm2 memory densities (this specifically) and other specs like latencies etc that will be available at launch. I understand this form factor for laptops, but it makes me wonder about down sides for desktop setups.
![X870 Required for Faster Zen 5 Memory Performance? June Q&A [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uv3OUUzKKmE/mqdefault.jpg)
The more you buy the more you save.
I will buy the new RTX 5090 Ti Super and its not because I love nVidia, nah, I already have had two 4090's but lets be honest, buying flagship GPU's is the smart choice, you save money logically because of the simple reasons that it will perform better, I had my 4090's for 2 years and its been stellar but they are showing their age now hopefully the 5090 Ti Super will be similar price as I had to sell my sister off to Chinese farmers to afford it.
can’t afford 😢
@@SMGJohn consumer 🫵🫵🫵🫵
@@SMGJohn gotta thank nvidia for doing an amazing job on 4090 but now it’s time for the 5090… i can’t wait to use all the amazing features on that beast!!
@@SMGJohn "Showing their age"
No. You just want more. More more more. Endlessly. The best isn't enough you need TWO of the best and even that's not enough you need MORE. You need what isn't even out yet.
"Showing their age"...SMH
I love how camm2 not only (potentially) provides speed - latency benefits, but also looks cooler with flat heatsink and eliminates compatibility issues with CPU coolers and ram sticks
The problem is that if you want to increase the memory of it, you have to buy an entirely new one instead of just adding another pair of ram sticks. Yes, potentially you could sell the old one to mitigate the cost of the new one, but still...
And you can put a screen on the heatsink!😂
Call me crazy, but I can see us heading towards motherboards with integrated RAM.
Camm is better than DIMMs. But, it's also a tiny bit less modular than regular DIMMs. (Screw down design, single module)
Not saying it's definite. But it's a personal worry.
@@TTM1895 personally don't see a problem here. For budget and extreme budget builders there always be an upgrade path with additional ram kit (though they can lose some of performance or stability if they will mix and match different kits and increase stress on IMC by populating all dimm slots), for workstations I guess it's possible to make two or more camm2 slots, and for people who is willing to get maximum performance it's not going to be an issue since they are most likely ready to spend enough money to get that performance
Adding sticks of ram on DDR5 is not recommended because if you go beyond 2 sticks, it becomes slower. So it's a non-argument. You sell the old and buy a new one.
the more you buy the more you save
the. more. you. buy. the. more. you. save.
Dam good marketing
The more you save the more you buy
Right up there with 16 times the detail of facepalm.
@Cosmodjinn Hey, it just works!
Kids in a candy store
So now I can have two chrome tabs open!!
Settle down. We never said that was possible! :)
1 and a half, take it or leave it
One tab, and one running dinosaur tab
@@HardwareunboxedLOLOLOLOLOL
@@Hardwareunboxed lol 😆 😂
The amount of QOL improvements on that board is impressive
So watercooling memory would probably be very easy with the camm2 module. Could have a cpu and memory combo block, or both separated
Yep, very easy.
There's a vid showing water cooling at Computex on an MSI rig on the channel OC3D.
Not for the double sided modules
Slowly getting to a future where the whole motherboard just has one massive block all over it.
Then the next step is just throwing all your parts into water and it making a computer soup in your case.
😮
If CAMM2 provides a performance increase, I can learn to like it. Thumbs up!
Agreed. Fast RAM is critical for being able to run large LLMs and other AI models on the CPU at decent speeds.
The only metric we are interested in is fps in {insert relevant shooter game}.
it will trust me. It's similar performance to overclocked ram from stock which in cpu bound games can easily give +20% on some platforms
@@blakecasimir How do you imagine a two-sided CAM module? There is an array of contacts on the other side.
I am really curious as i see less memory chips and i have seen no word about dual channel and quad channel. So in theory it can be worse despite a higher frequency.
Wow! They’ve made some really cool improvements to the board. I hope other companies add these quality of life features to their boards too.
It's so refreshing seeing you guys from more than just the standard video angles 👌
Downloading now
fr
Link pls
YOU WOULDN'T 😧
I accidentally downloaded a car. Need help.
@@First-Name_Last-Name pet it
First time in a long time MSI stuff looks intrestring to me, good job MSI!
With M.2 usually occupying the top PCIe slot space, and CAMM memory, there will be room for monster air coolers on a lot of boards if this takes off (although JEDEC are saying "no screws" so this likely will not be the final form).
The design freedom CAMM offers is worth it alone, all else being equal. This is one of the problems BTX was intended to solve.
MSI have done right by me over the years. Here in Canada at least, their warranty service is second to none.
Well they must have changed a lot. Admittedly this is a 15-20yr old anecdote (vague on purpose), but MSI support was so bad for me, even as a major OEM, that I was responsible for killing that entire relationship. Was having personal and professional issues getting them to honor their warranties and it escalated wildly. That break up was only for a few years but it was shameful how resistant they were to replace anything, ever, for any reason, no matter how large a customer you were. This is why companies need to not be complete shit heads about this because they could have been 100% great for the past 10 years but I still think they are a POS for their past actions. Trust is hard to regain.
MSI might be selling me yet another one of their motherboards. The current MSI board I have has been great and Ryzen 9000 already has my name on it.
If CAMM2 can show better performance - that's an easy question to answer, most of people will be for it. Show the frequencies and timings it can pull of :-)
It will probably still be somewhat held back by ddr5 needing to support both dimm and camm. If ddr6 fully embraces camm we might see a huge leap in functional speeds as a wider bus should be possible.
You say "most people will be for it" as if we really have a choice in the matter 😂
So much RGB innovation options with the new CAMM2 model!
I love internal rgb in my opaque black box behind my table. Gives me so much extra.
@@yaldabaoth2 ambience is a valid reason for RGB.
@@robotsix6268 Me like purdy colorz
Camm style desktop memory will be interesting
Going from an open standard to closed licensed one will only increase prices.
once prices come down. right now 3 people make it. and dell is charging so much for it. even a 32gb stick is 2 to 300 dollars.
I really dont think this is the solution... its going to make building a computer even more expensive than it already is by quite a lot
@@ericneo2camm 2 was standardised by jedec though
@@ericneo2It is an open standard though? Ifixit showed it off unless I am missing something here
What we need is CHANNELS. Even casuals notice the increase in responsiveness of 8 channel Macbook or Snapdragon X. It's also crucial for LLMs. PC needs to keep up or x86 will be left behind. It's absurd that a high end gaming desktop is only dual channel like 20 years ago, but some laptops are now 8. Raw bandwidth is not everything.
On package ram makes connecting all of those wide memory busses popular but at the expense of no expandibility, we've had tri and quad channel in HEDT before, the extra bandwidth made little to no difference and the main problem will still be latency
camm2 will basically adapt ssd type coolers and/or heat sinks straight away.
Great video guys. Clear, concise and lots tech I was not aware of yet. Cheers!
The main flaw I see with the CAMM module is the lack of upgradeability. You can't gradually add more memory as you get more money. Each time you'll have to fully replace the older CAMM module and go through the hassle of selling it on ebay or sth.
The second problem I see with it is that smaller capacity modules will become obsolete very quickly and will end up as e-waste. An 8GB DIMM on its own is obsolete today for most gaming setups. But in a 8GB x 4 configuration totalling 32GB, it is still a viable option. The same can't be said for the CAMM module. Once it's obsolete, it can't be repurposed as easily, maybe for a NAS or home server, but not for gaming.
It is a downside with CAMM2. You can not add new modules. If you want more memory you have to get a new CAMM2 module and replace the older one. So at least plan for this when buying one. I have a feeling that OEMs will try to sell you the smallest CAMM2 they can get in order to save some money, probably 16GB. And you will have to cash out for a new 32GB module if needed
At least u can sell the old module when you upgrade
@@houssamalucad753 Except that the most common reason to upgrade is when you current hardware is lackluster. Meaning that OEM build will have cheap memory nobody want and that will become instant e-waste.
@@Vaasref not really, there is always a market for used parts, maybe you don't get close to how much you paid, but it means your hardware doesn't go to the garbage, and memory is still replaceable which is always a win in my book looking at how laptop manufacturers are doing things
Single channel CAMM2 modules are stackable, they use only half of the connector. So you can upgrade to dual channel by adding another module. And single channel modules will have lowest capacity, DC modules are twice as big with same dram ICs.
creating extra e-wastes in the meantime.... deliberately... for profits...
Roman was showing off some off the CAMM2 stuff from Gskill and I believe they had one that was rated at 10500. Sweet. Can't wait to see these new designs/technology.
I base all my plans for technology on Tim’s double or not thumbs up
I like this new CAMM2 memory slot. Looks like I might be building a new 9 series Ryzen system if they get this CAMM2 onto ITX boards.
9:40 'It's chunky boy!' 😂 tim with that tone, lmaoo 🤣
Awesome to see CAMM2 in the wild, can't wait to see wide spread adoption in laptops
4:12 a few such simple enhancements you will really thank msi for when building a pc
I love the camm2 memory, the whole board is low profile. Would also be amazing for ITX builds.
The M.2 Hotswap is SWEET.
Nice, I was afraid RAM would stay cheap.
I remember when everything was soldered onto the motherboard. We then saw things become modular so you could plug ram etc into the board and configure things easily, to suit yourself. We now have pins and connection types that are so fragile, they really would be better off just soldering them during production. That's progress for you.
The most impressive thing I saw was that they had the foresight to make the CAMM layout footprint double the width of the current memory module on display. That will allow us to put in much larger modules with ease in the future and not require serious side-step engineering. Much like the NVME standard that allows for longer and shorter modules. Same concept entirely. Good design IMO.
It's pretty cool that system integration seems to be a bit of a focus this year. Lots of simplifying connections and reducing cable clutter etc. Good to see.
Interesting. That kind of socket for the ram could be allocated on the back of the motherboard and release a lot of room from the front, which could be useful in itx form factor
CAMM2 will severely limit upgradability. It takes too much horizontal space, there is no chance of double sided modules. It is good for laptops but on desktops where vertical space is not a big problem, this is not a good solution. Unless manufacturers move most other connectors to the backside like that MSI board which came a while ago.
Intel is not specifying how many pins the new motherboard socket uses? 🤔 Everyone knows by now that it is LGA 1851 😜
The next video in my Recommended feed is one from GamersNexus titled, "Intel Says Not to Say 'LGA1851'" 😅
During the past 30 years, getting faster RAM has never made my computer appreciably feel faster.
one of those areas where we peaked ages ago for general computing. faster ram will always be niche benefit unless you’re running something from the stone age. Jedec on the current standard is almost always more than enough if you’re not a frame chaser.
@@H94R RAM is, in fact, the main bottlenecks of every PC today. If it was possible to decrease RAM latency from 200 cycles to at least 10 cycles (L2 cache speed), a build with RTX 4090 and some Intel Sandy Bridge CPU would be limited exactly by a GPU even in 1080p... If you wanna see a proof of my words, try to assemble some x86 program that interacts with GPU only through registers. You'll see if CPU is not bandwidth limited, it's far far far more powerful if used to its fullest.
I was able to pull a couple frames faster in some games between overclocked ram and non-overclocked. So it does make a difference. I’ve never noticed my computer “feeling faster” though.
@@robertobokarev439My point was that a modern system running jedec will feel the same as running 8400mhz. O.P specifically referenced the general feel of his pc after ram speed change. obviously high compute tasks are different, but that’s not most people.
@@H94R aight I got you, yet the difference between jedec 4800cl40 and 8400cl40 is mere 20-25% by the way...
Very cool cheers HUB!
OMG that tomahawk black mobo with that m.2 expansion is my next build for sure
I love it that CAM memory from laptops is coming to Desktop to replace DIMM. That should improve crosstalk on the RAM bus to allow even higher frequencies. Hope to see it come to AM5 in future.
Fuzion pronounced as Fussy-on. ;)
More please!
The pro-CAMM2 comments forget that to upgrade from 16GB to 32GB, you have to replace the 16GB with a 32GB board, so you are left with a worthless 16GB board that initially costs around $150. The 32GB CAMM2 is expected to retail at around $280. So, CAMM2 is not a cost-effective option for most who want modular design (a cheap route to upgrade from base RAM config).
In time, with economies of scale, the price may fall, but they will still remain much more expensive than DIMM as you will need to buy the same RAM you already have due to the board design rather than simply buying an extra RAM module. Okay, if you are buying in case, RAM needs upgrading to higher speeds or you worry about RAM failure, both are not really what most people care about--as stated, most want modular RAM for cheap upgrading.
Is there even going to be a 16GB version? I highly doubt it.
I’m really glad we’re seeing innovations in memory. We need higher memory bandwidth. If they can increase memory bandwidth while maintaining replaceability then that’s great!
Given ever more components needing heat sinks, when will we see marketing include “…and also heats your living space, negating furnace costs!”
id much rather have this than any onboard SOC or LPDDRX ram, this is the best of every world, I hope Arrow Lake and Lunar Lake both get support. Imagine these with DDR6-21600, going to be insane
Arrow Lake comes with memory on the package doesn't it?
@@bionicgeekgrrl I don't think so, this is designed for Lunar Lake. Arrow Lake being a desktop chip will likely still use standard memory dimms
@@RobloxianX It appears I had the two mixed up, all blur together so many lakes!
I like the quick release of the M.2 and graphics cards. It makes it easy to swap them out when needed.
That project "zero" motherboard with CAMM2 look amazing.
Thank you, this was amazing!
Great to see the innovations that these companies are working on. The memory redesign is probably the biggest out of them all. Will be interesting to see how it performs in reality versus what we currently have.
"premium feature"
Looks like all the motherboard manufacturers got together in a smoke filled room with cigars and decided to gate a cheap to add feature (7 segment displays) behind a +$200 paywall to force you into buying higher.
Just watched the 5700x3D review. Best in depth review available. Much appreciated.
MSI did me dirty with AM4, by being one of the only vendors who didn't allow for the functioning of ECC ram on their boards. Love my X570 MEG UNIFY, but had to go out and buy an el-cheapo Asrock B550M just to be able to do an ECC ram build. Probably will give them a miss when I buy a board for 9950X.
Well MSI support for AMD is always half assed. Just look at their AM5 boards lineup compared to Intel.
Hey, I'm really interested in building an ECC setup too! Can you give me some advice? Are there any boards with full ECC support (not just able to work with them without actually using ECC), what brands/models? What are the caveats?
@@vinylSummer If you google there are some good lists of AM4 boards that support the actual functioning of ECC ram. But generally, you're safe with Asrock, I know that much. Even cheaper boards like the B550M Pro4. As for ram, I use the Kingston 32GB 3200mhz (KSM32ED8/32HC). Caveat for a non-server board is that the ECC ram needs to be Unbuffered ECC ram, not registered.
It'd be nice if MSI could engineer a way to eliminate the screws needed for securing CAMM2 in a way similar to that neat m.2 release of theirs. Using four of those locking mechanisms might be tricky to use, but they could maybe have one edge of the module insert into a slot with springs, similar to m.2 slot, then have just two locking mechanisms at the corners of the opposite edge. There could also be posts that stick through the module's screw holes to provide extra stability. This is just me speculating and brainstorming, but I have to think that the MSI engineers could devise something that would be more user friendly than screws.
CAMM2 memory looks amazing. SO-DIMM is fraught with problems. Being low profile and easy to repair is a bonus. Now we might get to see what DDR5 is actually capable of on the desktop with this.
i love the graphics card with the water cooler inside concept - i hope that comes to market - if it actually works - i like that....
I mean it takes more horizontal space on the motherboard itself, the space where otherwise traces and all other small components would be located, which especially on ITX motherboards is very limited. 2 RAM slots on a ITX motherboard takes significantly less actual motherboard space than the new form factor.
I agree. I don't think some of the other commentors are keeping this aspect in mind.
@@corylyon545 yeah and another thing is- with 2 or 4 vertical ram slots (the conventional ones) it is possible to have significantly higher RAM capacity. Each of the 4 RAM sticks can be equipped with RAM chips on both sides. On the new form factor there's physically much less space to put RAM chips on it compared to 4 sticks with RAM chips on both sides. The new form factor was mainly designed for Laptops and it does make sense there, because the aim with laptops is to make them slimmer. For PC this is not that big of a factor. Overall the new form factor is not an improvement for PCs and I doubt that it will be the new standard in the future. The conventional RAM slots offer more advantages like higher capacity, taking less space on the actual motherboard itself, easier installation, easier cooling etc.
It's interesting to see new forms of Ram chips and things like that. It got me thinking when I clicked on this video, about how many standards we still use in our PCs that are likely extremely outdated.
The last thing I was expecting was a change in RAM form factor. I like what they have done with the M.2 modular design on the new board. Looks very Sci-Fi.
GREAT coverage, guys. HU and GN are above the rest IMHO!
It looks perfect for ITX motherboards. since it would give more space for new wider cpu coolers that couldn't be done before because of dimm slots but allow for a bigger heatsink+fan in small builds to increase what cpu can go into SFF builds. Imagine the higher end cpu that can be cooled properly in a tiny cramp space.
Gonna be honest... that quick release, super easy m.2 slot lock (or whatever the correct term is), and that snap-on Wi-Fi antenna on these boards are definitely going to be factors when I upgrade next. Not sure about CAMM2 yet though; it'll either be amazing or annoying. Definitely will need to see it in the "wild" before I have a solid stance on that. Let's hope they aren't all priced outside of my price range when I'm in the market.
As an sff builder, this will give more room in my case as well as not limit my cpu cooler choice! I'm all for this
MSI is really showing up. impressive!
Thanks for the show and tell on MSI up and coming products. I'm very interested in what may be coming to market from them.
I wish mobo manufactures would put the WiFi and BT antenna at the top of the I/O, and have the antenna attach directly to the rear. It's just much cleaner
Those features on the MSI motherboard are exactly what I've been waiting for!...
So many issues fixed!
A debug LED is what every board had. It's just crazy to see it as a premium fearture.
The most important thing is also the cost. Is it as affordable while providing similar or better cost/perf than dimm?
It is more expensive for now, 180 bucks for 32 GB of LPCAMM2. (LPCAMM2 is a smaller form factor for laptops, but with same conector)
Due to low volume, the only laptop that uses camm now is the P1 thinkpad gen 7.
@@rj7250a Low volume is always going to be expensive. If they can start to scale the production to even half of ddr5 sales volume, it should come down in price quite a lot
Do MSI boards still install the Nahimic malware if you enable the onboard sound device? That crap is almost impossible to remove from your PC, unless you have expert level computer knowledge. It will also automatically re-install and re-enable itself unless you nuke every trace of it and blacklist it's device ID in the registry.
But do they come with a capable VRM...? I've been stung by MSI with the £300+ x570 boards, claiming top tier component support, but the VRM couldn't handle the higher core counts at stock never mind when using PBO
Nice vid...
Keeping that head grow I see 🥶
RAM design really hasn't changed that much in decades as it's been a long thin slot in piece for so long so going to CAMM2 is huge. I really like it as it can provide very fast speeds and tons of capacity all on a single piece that's still interchangeable. I really hope this becomes the new standard as it's definitely an improvement.
That's a very Polish pronounciation od Fuzion that sounds like Fusion, well done Steve
MSI is basically reinventing the PC at this point, so many awesome QoL improvements and changes!
Great to see a POST code on the X870 Tomahawk.
that's the first time in a long time i see really useful features on usability, the PCIE release tab has been a nightmare for a long time, next will be the atx psu mainboard connector and the front panel jumpers
Yes, the MSI motherboards are offering some newer improvements once released for socket LGA 1851 socket. Now that the Intel 15th generation is coming to market along with MB’s, I am not finding from MSI’s website for the CAMM2 version which was Project Zero PLUS. Would anyone have information on whether MSI is actually proceeding with this MB production and when it will be available to the consumer?
Thanks for all information who are in the know!
They still probably won't be 10GBE on these boards. Going to have to pop in a Mellanox NIC as per usual. Will be only considering boards with 3 x16 form PCI, so I can do GPU/NIC/HBA controller. Sad to see that the trend is to gimp on PCI slots.
Considering 10Gb NICs are like $100, pretty sure your average consumer doesn't want that standard on all boards just yet.
Also, gonna have a hard time finding PCI slots, since the standard was superseded decades ago. 😜
I have old msi 570 creative that has 10gb so high end boards did have 10gb 6 years ago so I expect that highend ones still have it.
@@BlueDrew10 The express in the PCIe was so fast that it did a John Cena on you, sorry ;) But to be serious, 2.5GB / 5GB is such a rubbish standard to have on motherboards, but I'm also someone who has been rocking SFP+ 10GB NICs for over 5 years now. Gotta love those cheap Mellanox Connect-X3 NICs.
@@gaijinismybae 2.5Gb/5Gb is rubbish? 99% of users wouldn't utilize more than that. The 1% that will can buy a PCIe NIC. The one you mentioned is cheaper than I've seen, but still not cheap enough to be included in entry level mobos.
@@BlueDrew10That's old head thinking. Doesn't matter what % makes use of it. 10GB should be the standard. But yes, too many basic people out there that only use their PC for gaming or some other single purpose, when they should be using things like Proxmox or gaming in a VM (no, have never had an issue with any game while being in a VM) on UnRaid, etc. Anyway, I've seen some good looking boards coming with adequate slots to fit GPU/HBA/NIC, so I'm sorted.
Love the m.2 retainer. I can now not have to fret about losing the tiniest screw…
Camm2 seems very interesting. It would be great not having to check air cooler compatibility
I wonder if intel will do some sort of tiered memory given their new SoC designs post lunar lake that have on soc memory, to allow adding expandable high bandwidth memory with camm2. Maybe for desktop workstations?
Just move CAMM memory on the back of the MOBO like an nvme.
Place bigger heatsink around cpu socket...
that's smart
Even with CAMM2 on the front, given the low profile it should still allow for more heatsink clearance if someone wanted to make one that only worked with CAMM.
The one thing about Camm2 i don't like is the mounting method with screws near chips
that new ram looks very clean and you save a lot of space issues, specially with itx cases, if it works well it is a great idea
7:50 wtf Tomahawk with post code display? Guess my next mobo will be a MSI board
the more i eat, the more i po!
CAMM2 is looking very interesting, I'm hoping it becomes the standard that replaces DDR because of the advantages, but standards changing can take forever.
Would love to see this is SFF builds!
I wonder if they were originally planning to misspell "fusion" with an X and then realised that might not be such a good idea. I'll just call it The Fuzzy-On. Or The Fuzz Ion.
Will be interesting if we can see CAM2 contributing to AM5 being able to reach higher memory timings/bandwidth, or if the limiting factor is the zen 4/5 memory controller.
What are the MB manufacturers saying behind closed doors Steve/Tim?
Is the recent ryzen memory controller even able to address cam memory? I was under the impression that so far only the G models can do that (basically APU Chips)
@@hornsteinhof7592 It's same DDR5, just different connector.
Can't wait to see some custom loop blocks with the CAMM2 model, really wondering how far you can overclock with better contact cooling
This CAM2 motherboard should come with at least 2 slots. One on the front and maybe one at the back. Or anywhere else.
With one unique socket is hard to recomend it for anyone that does not have the final budged already available. Like we do with DDR now.
It is way batter then soldered. But if you want to upgrade your memory you have to sell it or transform it in a fancy paper weight
At 5 slots width, just put a fan at one end and exhaust through the back of the case.
I can dig it, but it depends on how much capacity they can offer and how much money they want for it
no more LEDs on ram, good
the will add it on shield =)
Welcome RGB shield.
but why? it doesn't affect rgb in anyway.
@@mc_sim did you not see the shield on top of ram?
@@woofkaf7724 oh god, please no
Sincerely hope Camm2 will never be the only option with DIY PCs in its current unupgradable/unexpandable form.
looking forward to the Asus booth
The less you spend, the more you get.
I am one who would like some follow up content focusing on camm2 memory densities (this specifically) and other specs like latencies etc that will be available at launch. I understand this form factor for laptops, but it makes me wonder about down sides for desktop setups.