Shaky story. Where does a supertweeter gets its signal from? Wether you stream, play a cd or vinyl albums the signal will not or hardly have any content above 20kHz. The source equipment cannot produce this. I seriously doubt if live music of any kind contains frequencies above 20kHz. So if frequencies above 20kHz influence frequencies below 20kHz they must exsist in the first place.
Generally, I see super-tweeters combined with Horn systems (Multi-cell, Le Cleach' etc). One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the video, is the fact that Super-tweeters provide better off-axis response, with much less high-frequency beaming than if those frequencies were being reproduced only through the horns.
I want to thank you. You've completely described what I've done for my self... me, not knowing why what I did worked. It just sounded soooo much better when I did. I have heresy iv RL. A Decwareufo feeding them. I felt I was missing something so I added my klipsch 600mk2 bookshelves (one on top of each heresy iv) disconnected tge jumpers, and fed a second UFO tge same signal, and sent it to the Tweeter only on the 600s. So, to sum up A split audio signal, 2 Ufo2 amps, one feeding Klipsch Heresy, the other feeding ONLY the tweeter of Klipsch 600mk2. What I got back was complete airy freedom. My system is actually on Audiophiliacs channel from last month (Beatles review ) and mine is one of tge viewer systems showcased . My name is Tommy...you cannot miss the setup if you care to check it out. And feel free to contact me with questions. I've done something I have yet to see someone else accomplish. I'll copy paste tge link next. Again, thank you. Sincerely. Tommy
I use a pair of ESS AMT tweeters (bi-polar) on top of my tower speakers, with frequency set at 16,000 Hz (if I remember correctly). After adding the AMT tweeters, the soundstage becomes more solid and sonic definitions improved.
One thing must be mentioned - any additional source of sound interferes with that ones which lready simmultenuously beams the same band. They create that complex mixup of positive negative and excact sum and up to my knowledge the result must be in some frequencies deminished, in other just as expected. Average result will be fieeling the range widened due to something lost Anyway supertweeter do not operate (should not) below 16 kHz so it is right to say its nothing wrong while for some people may be needed
Super tweeters are of doubtful benefit. Most quality studio microphones are deliberately rolled off at 20KHz to prevent instability and to prevent picking up ultrasonic interference. Is there are actually very high harmonics above 20KHz in the studio then they will be at a very low level and insignificant. DSD recordings can contain high levels of ultrasonic noise, so watch out if you have a super tweeter.
The late, much lamented, Max Townshend used to do a good demo with his supertweeters. It was amazing how their effect seemed to reach right down the frequency range - even into the bass. It seemed like magic!
Super tweeters can help by giving percussion instruments air and realistic transient response. Wind chimes are more defined, and drum cymbals are more crisp without decay harshness. A person doesn't have to have golden ears to appreciate the sound of a musician's triangle.
That’s exactly what I’ve been searching for. I love the crisp sound of cymbals. 47 years ago, I was enjoying music on sweet systems. Have noticed that it has been somewhat lacking a portion of the highs. My hearing is amplified to the point I hear some real high frequencies that nobody else could hear. Then reading the comments here I finally found out why. Thanks everyone.
Paul, as an amateur/semipro musician, this puts into words why I always pereferred live music albeit sometimes not as good as professionally recorded music. It is the sound, the quality of the sound that matters. As a woodwind player -clarinets and saxes - I (we) are always experimenting with reeds, mouthpieces etc to obtain the best we can be. Thnak you for this, enjoy your videos.
I became audiophile from spending all my savings on a pair of Stax electrostatic headphones in my teens. It woke me up to realize how much there is to resolve and especially how a bad tweeter can ruin the resolving character of a speaker.
As a musician, engineer and sound designer of synthesizers we use detuning of simple waveforms to decrease the perfection of these waveforms as they are generated from the oscillators. For example, saw waves at perfect pitch sound electronic, but if we slightly lower the pitch of one, increase pitch of another, and leave one alone, the harmonics and "beating" of the sound waves creates moving textures. And as we continue to design the sound all the moving harmonics can give the illusion of an acoustic instrument. Like the tuning of a piano, it is never perfect, but you don't want it to be.
Michael Fremer: "Everything distorts." This being said: Do you prefer certain kinds, & levels, of distortion? In a nutshell, after a lot of consideration: Solid State, transistor, systems tend to produce odd ~ order harmonics, especially when over ~ driven. Tube ~ based systems: Even ~ Order. Tube distortion sounds, "sweeter,' more pleasing, perhaps desirable. Paul's tube ~ based inputs for his preamp, power amp inputs, a compromise? Solid state: Harsher, more jarring. Musical example: `60's, guitar "sawtooth waveforms," actually popularized by The Yardbirds, ultimate example: "{I Can't Get No} Satisfaction." I helped a musician obtain amplification equipment, learned that rock guitarists WANTED a, "crunchy," sound, a narrow bandwidth where the amp was beginning to heavily distort, just before it went completely, "off of the rails." So, guitar amp designers, began to DESIGN this sound, INTO their equipment! A switch! Latest Klipsch tweeters have a, "vented design," that, "minimizes standing waves," in their horn ~ mounted tweeters, which reproduce up to 24 to 25,000 cycles. I say: "When I play my Jimi Hendrix, gimmie those Standing Waves!" 😁🤪👿 @@PaoloCaminiti 😎
In the early 70´s an audio engineer here in Denmark, Peter Holm, announced a circuit he called TIM killer. That was a very simple circuit, just a 12 dB filter with a crossover frequency set at 20 KHz, put across the tweeter, to kill the energy above 20 KHz, to get rid of possible IMD. There was an LED involved also, so that people could se the effect. I once wrote about that on DIY Audio, and got severely shot down from all sides, being called an idiot and all the sort of bad things, but maybe it works.
This is the same reason I have been preaching for years why SOME CDs do not sound so great. The hard 20khz digital cutoff filter is largely to blame. Without the ultrasonic frequencies being there to affect the lower frequency harmonics, something certainly gets lost. 16bit/44.1khz has never been enough and is a design flaw that has haunted us for many years, IMHO. :)
It's most likely poor mixing/recording of the album itself. Sometimes you can find different masters from different versions of the cd or other formats like vinyl rip. An option I've been exploring recently is to remaster the album yourself, track by track in a DAW software. This is no easy feat as it's the job of a mastering engineer
@@ruvamsi Thanks for the reply and the suggestion. While I have actually done this in the past, it's impossible to get back frequencies that have already been lost. However, if one wants to attempt to re-master their CDs/Vinyl, I would absolutely recommend using Harrison Mixbus DAW software to do it, as it has an extremely warm analog mixer (think Harrison 32C) which sounds absolutely incredible!
@@jimhines5145 Thanks for the rec, I like the clean interface of that software. Let me add this video and channel has been an invaluable resource into the mastering process: ua-cam.com/video/ZHXD-BlKyL8/v-deo.html
The same thing happens when you add a subwoofer to your system. The low frequencies make the mids on the mains to be more forward, give them more depth and realism. Truly eerie when the sub is tuned well with the mains.
Well, I wouldn't say that. Subsonic frequencies from a sub that can actually produce them, especially with lots of speaker excursion/air displacement and power, shake things (including your body), so you can certainly FEEL them. Not sure that ultrasonic frequencies can be perceived by the body in any way (certainly not hearing and dunno that you could FEEL them), but they probably can't hurt. My Focal Chora 826's go to 28khz, so, that's enough for me.
@@kx8960if your listening room is sealed off for the most part, like no open doors, it pressurizes the room. Plus feeling the tactile response. I have 2- 18” subs with 3” of excursion, they go down to 5hz. Lots of movies do have quite a bit of subsonic information recorded.
Well said. Another way of describing is that our ears are non-linear devices, they create intermodulation distortion. Out-of-band tones, say 19KHz and 20KHz (a popular test signal), can create an IM distortion tone at 1KHz which we do hear. If the out-of-band content is missing it won't sound the same, and therefore sound less natural.
I have just added super tweeters (Aperion Audio MKII Planar-Ribbon Super Tweeters) on top of my speakers, and they each handle up to 40kHz. Okay, so that's 20kHz per ear. LOL Anyhow, I have been listening to old collections of mine, and I am now hearing things that I had never even noticed beforehand. An amazing difference.
If ultrasonic sound can modulate lower frequencies in air (seems possible) the effect would still be recordable without having to capture or reproduce those ultrasonic frequencies.
I think the science seems sound. It's a fact that fundamental frequencies we can't hear will have harmonics at frequencies we can. The opposite is true too. The question we should be asking is, how many recordings have actually have any stored information at those frequencies? CD goes up to 22khz and that's it. Only an audiophile recording that was made at a live event, captured at high sample rate and not truncated in any way will possibly feed the super tweeter something it can use. Right? And if you're listing to digital that was ever compressed, or presumably a vinyl record, forget it.
I can't find anything on the phrase "air modulation". Anyone know what he's talking about? Sounds like he's describing intermodulation distortion due to propagation through the air, but isn't that negligible (even in the near ultrasonic)? Maybe in the ear...?
I have a question ❤ i have 2 mono blocks Advance Paris bx2 they go up 2 50.000 MHz end my quadral aurum 7 speajers go up 2 80.000. Il never het the 80.000 oud of my speakers Were i need that range fore Guess would be face change or something?
Thanks Paul. If the super tweeter is crossed over at 8, 16, etc. kHz, it is still producing significant output at frequencies well below the crossover. This still alters what people hear who can't hear above those frequencies. Your theory, if i understand it correctly, still postulates that the super tweeter alters frequencies below the presumed crossover frequency. Hence, the reason people say super tweeters change the sound is because they alter the audible range and not the "super" frequencies. They also alter the dispersion of the audible range. For these reasons, it would seem more rigorous testing is required. Thanks!
I get poo poo'd a lot for saying this, but I heartfully and truthfully hear a great difference in very low frequencies as well as the ultra high frequencies you describe. Plus, using 2 subs, each getting only stereo information, (not LFE mono) and placing those subs as close to the main full range speakers as the room acoustics, and often aesthetics, allow seems to noticeably enhance the stereo image and upper bass accuracy, as well as strongly reinforce to very lowest notes. Even though bass is directionless below about 80hz, having both the subs and the speakers outputs in line and in time, has a symbiotic resonance that improves frequencies well above the fundamentals. I hear it in every test I have performed. I will add that this effect has not been tested by me on big systems in large rooms where many other factors are in play. My tests have been with speakers between 4 and 6 feet apart and seating positions in and around the equilateral triangle, usually a little further that equal. Try it and see.
a) no it doesn't affect at all the other frequencies in any way that we can distinguish \ b) for the vast majority of music there's no point of anything above 20khz since a regular lossless flac redbook cd doesn't at all produce anything close to where a super tweeter goes. More snake oil for the industry. Well, at least it techincally creates a sound that we can't hear, unlike power cord or AC conditioners which are pure BS.
@@UFO_computers if you can hear noise floor with your electronics, and you need a "hifi" power conditioner to get rid of it, that means that your priority should be to get rid of that noisy and faulty 20 bucks amp that you're using and get a proper one. You wont hear any noise floor with any current era entry level amps or dacs.
After 23 years, in 2023 I bought thin-film AMT ribbon tweeter speaker GoldenEar BRX and I love them so much that I bought a 3rd one as the center speaker for the home teater. source=Apple Music lossless
are you confusing an AMT tweeter with a super tweeter? i ask because a lot of replies are clearly conflating these two different objects. ribbons and AMTs (which differ between each other, and are not the same) are tweeter design paradigms. super tweeters are tweeters of _any kind,_ tuned to inaudibly high frequencies. the BRX isn’t in this conversation since it does not include a super tweeter
In the early 1970s, Finnish professor Matti Otala described a phenomenon called differential hearing. In simple terms, frequencies outside the audible range can produce sounds that are inside the audible spectrum. Example: One plays a 30 kHz and a 40 kHz tone, both of which are not audible. According to Prof. Otala, this produces a 10 kHz tone or at least the human ear seems to hear a 10 kHz tone. Harman Kardon addressed this theory in the 1980s with its Citation amplifiers.
You said this much better than me. In simple terms, super tweeters, ribbon tweeters etc, makes the bass sound better. Not sure why you do not like them. Super tweeters does the same thing as high end ribbon tweeters. Only difference is, it add complexity to speaker setup because they are super directional. Toe in angle needs to be precise to like 5mm.
Most recordigs do not even have anything recorded above 20khz to begin with. Normal youtube videos to not have anything past 15 kHz. You would need sacd to play to have anything to reproduce to begin with.
A question: My Klipsch floor standing speakers: RP ~ 280F, and center channel: RP ~ 450C; have tweeters that extend to: 25 K Hz. Therefore, since CD's cut off, as I recall, between 20 to 22K, does this accomplish anything? The RP Series has titanium tweeters. One inch. On the other hand {I have 5 fingers!} the larger, floor standing RF ~ 7 III speakers, 1 3/4" Tweeters, "only," extend to: 24 K Hz! I have recorded music on quality reel machines at up to 15 inches per second, live and quality albums. Could these last be better formats, in this regard, then? {Some expensive speakers have tweeters rated at up to 45 K Hz, & some up to around 50 K Hz! Dogs have superior high frequency hearing; give them a treat! Tweet, tweet, tweet! 😁😅
Don’t mixes and stereo equipment both eliminate content above 22kHz? And if this stuff mattered in a good way then wouldn’t more speakers include such a driver
If super tweeters can help to improve the clarity and the soundstage of the sound/music being played, so why did Paul said he isn't a fan of them? That got me wondering. 🤔
The main concept here - higher frequencies impacting lower freq. waves and altering how they are audibly perceived - seems like a measurable phenomenon. Does anyone know of data to support that idea?
well, you can think of harmonics. for instance, if you have singnal on 100 Hz frequency, in your room it will have harmonics on 200, 300, 400 etc. depending on the timbre of the voice/instrument/sound some of the harmonics are to be better heard than other (as they vary in levels). so, thinking about inaudible part of the frequency spectrum, if you have one of harmonics on 23100 Hz it is still a harmonic for that 100Hz original signal. that means that in the time of that signal is playing the harmonic (23100 Hz) is playing at the same time and thus _increasing overall level of the signal_. so it kind of augments original sound. of cause for my example one may argue the 23100Hz harmonic will hardly help the 100Hz signal that much. however as long as we are talking not about single frequency or single harmonic but about a whole range of frequencies (like from 22000Hz to 30000Hz or 50000Hz), then this "augmentation" will have the amount that is easier to perceive. so this augmentation creates a feel of more definition and "naturality" of the sound. for instance the 30000Hz frequency augments all frequencies that it could be considered as a harmonic of (like 100Hz, 150Hz, 300Hz, 1000Hz, 1500Hz, 3000Hz, 10000Hz, 15000Hz and so on). and this effect is to work for all of these frequencies at the same time.
If you place a mirror on the wall, shine an ultraviolet or infrared light at that mirror, you will see nothing reflected back at you, because infrared and ultraviolet are outside thee human’s visual spectrum. Yet, if you shine a light, within the visual spectrum at that mirror, like green, or blue, you will clearly see them being reflected back at you: so, if you then shine the green light at the mirror, then shine the ultraviolet light at the mirror simultaneously, you still won’t see the ultraviolet light, but you still will see changes to that green light, where the 2 colours interact. Just because you cannot hear or see things, doesn’t mean that they’re not having an affect on what you can hear and see!!
Based on what I know I'd say that no supertweeter should be used without acoustic measurement and evaluation of it's effects on the rest of an acoustic system.
So in other words, super tweeters do the opposite job of a subwoofer? Doing the heavy lifting so the mids and tweeters can excel at their jobs? A super tweeter is supposed to do the same but from the higher frequencies, rather than the low?
Question is also about how much energy of such harmonics exists in natural sounds.and can they compete in loudness with average harmonics of listening band? To create resonance at 20 kHz the dimension of source must equal 1/2 wawe length - iti is 0,707 cm and such circle create available surface to emit that frequency. How much air and with what amplitude it can move? Our hearing tends to adopt it's sensitivity to loudest sounds which is not happening when we test hearing in silent laboratory.
I find, that If I add too much filtering/re-clocking on the USB input to my dac, the sound becomes too warm and a bit claustrophobic at lower sample rates. Specifically when listening with IEMs.
But do it have an effect if you play a cd? There is no information above 20 kHz on a cd. I guess you need a highres file? Perhaps you also need a super tweeter to get the full benefit from a highres file?
Comb filtering from a super tweeter interfering with the output of the main tweeter and cause nulls in the highs that are very audible. Maybe this is why Paul is not a fan of them.
Von Schweikert uses a super tweeter in addition to a regular one. Again it comes down to the room and the gear whether it helps or hurts the presentation
Interesting question: I asked Chat GPT about it: If there are two ultrasonic signals, one at 25000hz and one at 25500hz will I hear a 500 beat note? No, you will not hear a 500 beat note because ultrasonic signals are beyond the range of human hearing, which typically ranges from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. The two signals at 25000 Hz and 25500 Hz are both ultrasonic and are outside the range of human hearing. However, if two audible signals with frequencies that are close to each other are played simultaneously, it can result in a beat frequency equal to the difference between the two frequencies. This is known as a beat note, and it can be heard as a periodic variation in the loudness of the combined sound. What beat frequency does my example make? As the two signals have frequencies of 25000 Hz and 25500 Hz respectively, the beat frequency will be the difference between these two frequencies, which is 500 Hz. However, as I mentioned earlier, this beat frequency is outside the range of human hearing as it is in the ultrasonic range. Humans can hear frequencies up to about 20 kHz, so the beat frequency of 500 Hz produced by the two ultrasonic signals would not be audible to us. But how is this correct if the beat frequency is in the audible range? I apologize for my previous response, I misunderstood the frequency values given in the question. If the two signals have frequencies of 25000 Hz and 25500 Hz, respectively, then the beat frequency can be calculated by taking the difference between the two frequencies: 25500 Hz - 25000 Hz = 500 Hz This beat frequency of 500 Hz is in the audible range and can be heard by humans. When two sound waves with slightly different frequencies are played simultaneously, they interfere with each other, producing a beat frequency equal to the difference between the two frequencies. In this case, you would hear a periodic variation in loudness with a frequency of 500 Hz. So my curiosity is how much of what is heard from the speakers are the pre-recorded audible beat frequencies vs. the beat frequencies created in real-time from the ultrasound content.
If super tweeter with up to 40 kHz would make sense, there would have been super microphones for a long time that can also "hear" and process such highs.
LRAD systems (usually police or military PA/acoustics weapons) use the phase interruption and encoding of an ultrasound carrier wave to reproduce audio at amazing ranges. The wave pattern ends up looking alot like PDM. So not only in terms of sound loabing, but as an actual sonic conductor, high frequencies do change our perseption. You don't notice it's there, but you do notice when it's missing.
Hi Paul. My question is how can it work if your amplifier only reproduces frequencies up to 20kHz? Also, isn't CD bandwidth limited to the same frequency of 20kHz?
Very well explained, Paul. There is also a case for supertweeters in augmenting conventional dome tweeters that can fall off faster than their nominal specifications suggest. I suspect that you are not a fan because you use ribbons:)
The neighbor's dog loves my supertweeter.
My pet bat loves it too. 🦇
My rattlesnake hates it…
Either my speakers hate my music or my music hates my speakers.🤔😳🥺🙄
😂😂😂
Shaky story. Where does a supertweeter gets its signal from? Wether you stream, play a cd or vinyl albums the signal will not or hardly have any content above 20kHz. The source equipment cannot produce this. I seriously doubt if live music of any kind contains frequencies above 20kHz. So if frequencies above 20kHz influence frequencies below 20kHz they must exsist in the first place.
Can't argue with your first statement, but as to live music, it's called Overtones....
Generally, I see super-tweeters combined with Horn systems (Multi-cell, Le Cleach' etc). One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the video, is the fact that Super-tweeters provide better off-axis response, with much less high-frequency beaming than if those frequencies were being reproduced only through the horns.
If you are English your skin doesn't turn brown, but bright red.
I guess super tweeters are sound shapers
I want to thank you. You've completely described what I've done for my self... me, not knowing why what I did worked. It just sounded soooo much better when I did. I have heresy iv RL. A Decwareufo feeding them. I felt I was missing something so I added my klipsch 600mk2 bookshelves (one on top of each heresy iv) disconnected tge jumpers, and fed a second UFO tge same signal, and sent it to the Tweeter only on the 600s. So, to sum up
A split audio signal, 2 Ufo2 amps, one feeding Klipsch Heresy, the other feeding ONLY the tweeter of Klipsch 600mk2. What I got back was complete airy freedom.
My system is actually on Audiophiliacs channel from last month (Beatles review ) and mine is one of tge viewer systems showcased . My name is Tommy...you cannot miss the setup if you care to check it out. And feel free to contact me with questions. I've done something I have yet to see someone else accomplish. I'll copy paste tge link next.
Again, thank you.
Sincerely.
Tommy
I use a pair of ESS AMT tweeters (bi-polar) on top of my tower speakers, with frequency set at 16,000 Hz (if I remember correctly). After adding the AMT tweeters, the soundstage becomes more solid and sonic definitions improved.
One thing must be mentioned - any additional source of sound interferes with that ones which lready simmultenuously beams the same band. They create that complex mixup of positive negative and excact sum and up to my knowledge the result must be in some frequencies deminished, in other just as expected. Average result will be fieeling the range widened due to something lost Anyway supertweeter do not operate (should not) below 16 kHz so it is right to say its nothing wrong while for some people may be needed
Super tweeters are of doubtful benefit. Most quality studio microphones are deliberately rolled off at 20KHz to prevent instability and to prevent picking up ultrasonic interference. Is there are actually very high harmonics above 20KHz in the studio then they will be at a very low level and insignificant. DSD recordings can contain high levels of ultrasonic noise, so watch out if you have a super tweeter.
The late, much lamented, Max Townshend used to do a good demo with his supertweeters. It was amazing how their effect seemed to reach right down the frequency range - even into the bass. It seemed like magic!
"Overtones"
Also, your dog doesn't want to listen to crappy sounding music.
But the Cat next door doesn’t mind crappy Music. Make the Cat happy once in awhile.
Play some Britney Spears. 😀
Super tweeters can help by giving percussion instruments air and realistic transient response. Wind chimes are more defined, and drum cymbals are more crisp without decay harshness. A person doesn't have to have golden ears to appreciate the sound of a musician's triangle.
That’s exactly what I’ve been searching for. I love the crisp sound of cymbals. 47 years ago, I was enjoying music on sweet systems. Have noticed that it has been somewhat lacking a portion of the highs. My hearing is amplified to the point I hear some real high frequencies that nobody else could hear. Then reading the comments here I finally found out why. Thanks everyone.
@@Dirtywhtboy87930 what do you mean "your hearing is amplified" ?
@@Spractral I am able to hear higher frequencies than lots of other individuals
I'm 46 years old...
I use my iPhone to produce test tones using apple airplay and my streamer.
I can't hear anything over 12 khz...
Paul, as an amateur/semipro musician, this puts into words why I always pereferred live music albeit sometimes not as good as professionally recorded music. It is the sound, the quality of the sound that matters. As a woodwind player -clarinets and saxes - I (we) are always experimenting with reeds, mouthpieces etc to obtain the best we can be. Thnak you for this, enjoy your videos.
I became audiophile from spending all my savings on a pair of Stax electrostatic headphones in my teens. It woke me up to realize how much there is to resolve and especially how a bad tweeter can ruin the resolving character of a speaker.
As a musician, engineer and sound designer of synthesizers we use detuning of simple waveforms to decrease the perfection of these waveforms as they are generated from the oscillators. For example, saw waves at perfect pitch sound electronic, but if we slightly lower the pitch of one, increase pitch of another, and leave one alone, the harmonics and "beating" of the sound waves creates moving textures. And as we continue to design the sound all the moving harmonics can give the illusion of an acoustic instrument. Like the tuning of a piano, it is never perfect, but you don't want it to be.
It's hard to see how this apply to reproducing recorded music, and so is the beating point from Paul...
Michael Fremer: "Everything distorts." This being said: Do you prefer certain kinds, & levels, of distortion? In a nutshell, after a lot of consideration: Solid State, transistor, systems tend to produce odd ~ order harmonics, especially when over ~ driven. Tube ~ based systems: Even ~ Order. Tube distortion sounds, "sweeter,' more pleasing, perhaps desirable. Paul's tube ~ based inputs for his preamp, power amp inputs, a compromise? Solid state: Harsher, more jarring. Musical example: `60's, guitar "sawtooth waveforms," actually popularized by The Yardbirds, ultimate example: "{I Can't Get No} Satisfaction." I helped a musician obtain amplification equipment, learned that rock guitarists WANTED a, "crunchy," sound, a narrow bandwidth where the amp was beginning to heavily distort, just before it went completely, "off of the rails." So, guitar amp designers, began to DESIGN this sound, INTO their equipment! A switch! Latest Klipsch tweeters have a, "vented design," that, "minimizes standing waves," in their horn ~ mounted tweeters, which reproduce up to 24 to 25,000 cycles. I say: "When I play my Jimi Hendrix, gimmie those Standing Waves!" 😁🤪👿 @@PaoloCaminiti 😎
I've always agreed with this but struggled to explain it to others. Thanx.
In the early 70´s an audio engineer here in Denmark, Peter Holm, announced a circuit he called TIM killer. That was a very simple circuit, just a 12 dB filter with a crossover frequency
set at 20 KHz, put across the tweeter, to kill the energy above 20 KHz, to get rid of possible IMD. There was an LED involved also, so that people could se the effect.
I once wrote about that on DIY Audio, and got severely shot down from all sides, being called an idiot and all the sort of bad things, but maybe it works.
This is the same reason I have been preaching for years why SOME CDs do not sound so great. The hard 20khz digital cutoff filter is largely to blame. Without the ultrasonic frequencies being there to affect the lower frequency harmonics, something certainly gets lost. 16bit/44.1khz has never been enough and is a design flaw that has haunted us for many years, IMHO. :)
It's most likely poor mixing/recording of the album itself. Sometimes you can find different masters from different versions of the cd or other formats like vinyl rip. An option I've been exploring recently is to remaster the album yourself, track by track in a DAW software. This is no easy feat as it's the job of a mastering engineer
@@ruvamsi Thanks for the reply and the suggestion. While I have actually done this in the past, it's impossible to get back frequencies that have already been lost. However, if one wants to attempt to re-master their CDs/Vinyl, I would absolutely recommend using Harrison Mixbus DAW software to do it, as it has an extremely warm analog mixer (think Harrison 32C) which sounds absolutely incredible!
@@jimhines5145 Thanks for the rec, I like the clean interface of that software. Let me add this video and channel has been an invaluable resource into the mastering process:
ua-cam.com/video/ZHXD-BlKyL8/v-deo.html
The same thing happens when you add a subwoofer to your system. The low frequencies make the mids on the mains to be more forward, give them more depth and realism. Truly eerie when the sub is tuned well with the mains.
Well, I wouldn't say that. Subsonic frequencies from a sub that can actually produce them, especially with lots of speaker excursion/air displacement and power, shake things (including your body), so you can certainly FEEL them. Not sure that ultrasonic frequencies can be perceived by the body in any way (certainly not hearing and dunno that you could FEEL them), but they probably can't hurt. My Focal Chora 826's go to 28khz, so, that's enough for me.
@@kx8960if your listening room is sealed off for the most part, like no open doors, it pressurizes the room. Plus feeling the tactile response. I have 2- 18” subs with 3” of excursion, they go down to 5hz. Lots of movies do have quite a bit of subsonic information recorded.
Well said. Another way of describing is that our ears are non-linear devices, they create intermodulation distortion. Out-of-band tones, say 19KHz and 20KHz (a popular test signal), can create an IM distortion tone at 1KHz which we do hear. If the out-of-band content is missing it won't sound the same, and therefore sound less natural.
Thank you. I think that this can also be called: Heterodyning.
I have just added super tweeters (Aperion Audio MKII Planar-Ribbon Super Tweeters) on top of my speakers, and they each handle up to 40kHz. Okay, so that's 20kHz per ear. LOL Anyhow, I have been listening to old collections of mine, and I am now hearing things that I had never even noticed beforehand. An amazing difference.
subsonics down to 10hz should not be disregarded either.
a 10hz to 40khz system can produce energy and airyness beyond 20-20000 systems
This is a really good explanation and analogy. Very interesting, thank you Paul.
If ultrasonic sound can modulate lower frequencies in air (seems possible) the effect would still be recordable without having to capture or reproduce those ultrasonic frequencies.
I think the science seems sound. It's a fact that fundamental frequencies we can't hear will have harmonics at frequencies we can. The opposite is true too. The question we should be asking is, how many recordings have actually have any stored information at those frequencies? CD goes up to 22khz and that's it. Only an audiophile recording that was made at a live event, captured at high sample rate and not truncated in any way will possibly feed the super tweeter something it can use. Right? And if you're listing to digital that was ever compressed, or presumably a vinyl record, forget it.
I can't find anything on the phrase "air modulation". Anyone know what he's talking about? Sounds like he's describing intermodulation distortion due to propagation through the air, but isn't that negligible (even in the near ultrasonic)? Maybe in the ear...?
I have a question ❤
i have 2 mono blocks Advance Paris bx2 they go up 2 50.000 MHz
end my quadral aurum 7 speajers go up 2 80.000. Il never het the 80.000 oud of my speakers
Were i need that range fore Guess would be face change or something?
Thanks Paul. If the super tweeter is crossed over at 8, 16, etc. kHz, it is still producing significant output at frequencies well below the crossover. This still alters what people hear who can't hear above those frequencies. Your theory, if i understand it correctly, still postulates that the super tweeter alters frequencies below the presumed crossover frequency. Hence, the reason people say super tweeters change the sound is because they alter the audible range and not the "super" frequencies. They also alter the dispersion of the audible range. For these reasons, it would seem more rigorous testing is required. Thanks!
I get poo poo'd a lot for saying this, but I heartfully and truthfully hear a great difference in very low frequencies as well as the ultra high frequencies you describe. Plus, using 2 subs, each getting only stereo information, (not LFE mono) and placing those subs as close to the main full range speakers as the room acoustics, and often aesthetics, allow seems to noticeably enhance the stereo image and upper bass accuracy, as well as strongly reinforce to very lowest notes. Even though bass is directionless below about 80hz, having both the subs and the speakers outputs in line and in time, has a symbiotic resonance that improves frequencies well above the fundamentals. I hear it in every test I have performed. I will add that this effect has not been tested by me on big systems in large rooms where many other factors are in play. My tests have been with speakers between 4 and 6 feet apart and seating positions in and around the equilateral triangle, usually a little further that equal. Try it and see.
Brilliant explanation. Learnt something meaningful.
a) no it doesn't affect at all the other frequencies in any way that we can distinguish \ b) for the vast majority of music there's no point of anything above 20khz since a regular lossless flac redbook cd doesn't at all produce anything close to where a super tweeter goes. More snake oil for the industry. Well, at least it techincally creates a sound that we can't hear, unlike power cord or AC conditioners which are pure BS.
I’m sorry to hear you can’t appreciate a lower noise floor.
@@UFO_computers if you can hear noise floor with your electronics, and you need a "hifi" power conditioner to get rid of it, that means that your priority should be to get rid of that noisy and faulty 20 bucks amp that you're using and get a proper one. You wont hear any noise floor with any current era entry level amps or dacs.
I had Realistic Super Tweeters back in the day. 😂
I still use my Realistic piezo super tweeters!
After 23 years, in 2023 I bought thin-film AMT ribbon tweeter speaker GoldenEar BRX and I love them so much that I bought a 3rd one as the center speaker for the home teater.
source=Apple Music lossless
are you confusing an AMT tweeter with a super tweeter? i ask because a lot of replies are clearly conflating these two different objects.
ribbons and AMTs (which differ between each other, and are not the same) are tweeter design paradigms. super tweeters are tweeters of _any kind,_ tuned to inaudibly high frequencies. the BRX isn’t in this conversation since it does not include a super tweeter
In the early 1970s, Finnish professor Matti Otala described a phenomenon called differential hearing. In simple terms, frequencies outside the audible range can produce sounds that are inside the audible spectrum. Example: One plays a 30 kHz and a 40 kHz tone, both of which are not audible. According to Prof. Otala, this produces a 10 kHz tone or at least the human ear seems to hear a 10 kHz tone.
Harman Kardon addressed this theory in the 1980s with its Citation amplifiers.
You said this much better than me. In simple terms, super tweeters, ribbon tweeters etc, makes the bass sound better. Not sure why you do not like them. Super tweeters does the same thing as high end ribbon tweeters. Only difference is, it add complexity to speaker setup because they are super directional. Toe in angle needs to be precise to like 5mm.
I was just about to say, let’s have a talk about harmonics, then you said it😀
Do super tweeters add anything?
How Swteet !!! 🤣🤣🤣
Does CD/Vinyl/file or any other music format contain ultrasonic information?
Most recordigs do not even have anything recorded above 20khz to begin with. Normal youtube videos to not have anything past 15 kHz. You would need sacd to play to have anything to reproduce to begin with.
Some of the best surfing waves in the ocean are from swells that come from two different angles and combine into a perfect wave!
A question: My Klipsch floor standing speakers: RP ~ 280F, and center channel: RP ~ 450C; have tweeters that extend to: 25 K Hz. Therefore, since CD's cut off, as I recall, between 20 to 22K, does this accomplish anything? The RP Series has titanium tweeters. One inch. On the other hand {I have 5 fingers!} the larger, floor standing RF ~ 7 III speakers, 1 3/4" Tweeters, "only," extend to: 24 K Hz! I have recorded music on quality reel machines at up to 15 inches per second, live and quality albums. Could these last be better formats, in this regard, then? {Some expensive speakers have tweeters rated at up to 45 K Hz, & some up to around 50 K Hz! Dogs have superior high frequency hearing; give them a treat! Tweet, tweet, tweet! 😁😅
Where are those high frequencies came from? I think our recording systems design industrial wide the frequency response are between 20-20KHz!
Good explanation! Also..: A tweater that handles up to 20k khz, doesn't handle 19,8 khz very well/unstrained...
Exactly why the mp3s sound like crap even though they "only remove the stuff you can't hear" BS. Follow the science. 😅
Don’t mixes and stereo equipment both eliminate content above 22kHz?
And if this stuff mattered in a good way then wouldn’t more speakers include such a driver
If super tweeters can help to improve the clarity and the soundstage of the sound/music being played, so why did Paul said he isn't a fan of them? That got me wondering. 🤔
The main concept here - higher frequencies impacting lower freq. waves and altering how they are audibly perceived - seems like a measurable phenomenon. Does anyone know of data to support that idea?
well, you can think of harmonics. for instance, if you have singnal on 100 Hz frequency, in your room it will have harmonics on 200, 300, 400 etc. depending on the timbre of the voice/instrument/sound some of the harmonics are to be better heard than other (as they vary in levels). so, thinking about inaudible part of the frequency spectrum, if you have one of harmonics on 23100 Hz it is still a harmonic for that 100Hz original signal. that means that in the time of that signal is playing the harmonic (23100 Hz) is playing at the same time and thus _increasing overall level of the signal_. so it kind of augments original sound. of cause for my example one may argue the 23100Hz harmonic will hardly help the 100Hz signal that much. however as long as we are talking not about single frequency or single harmonic but about a whole range of frequencies (like from 22000Hz to 30000Hz or 50000Hz), then this "augmentation" will have the amount that is easier to perceive. so this augmentation creates a feel of more definition and "naturality" of the sound. for instance the 30000Hz frequency augments all frequencies that it could be considered as a harmonic of (like 100Hz, 150Hz, 300Hz, 1000Hz, 1500Hz, 3000Hz, 10000Hz, 15000Hz and so on). and this effect is to work for all of these frequencies at the same time.
@@mykhailoskachkov5946no offense but this is not data
@@WeeWeeJumbo well, it is just a knowledge. the main concern though is the actual perceived difference. i mean whether one can really hear it.
If you place a mirror on the wall, shine an ultraviolet or infrared light at that mirror, you will see nothing reflected back at you, because infrared and ultraviolet are outside thee human’s visual spectrum. Yet, if you shine a light, within the visual spectrum at that mirror, like green, or blue, you will clearly see them being reflected back at you: so, if you then shine the green light at the mirror, then shine the ultraviolet light at the mirror simultaneously, you still won’t see the ultraviolet light, but you still will see changes to that green light, where the 2 colours interact.
Just because you cannot hear or see things, doesn’t mean that they’re not having an affect on what you can hear and see!!
Based on what I know I'd say that no supertweeter should be used without acoustic measurement and evaluation of it's effects on the rest of an acoustic system.
So in other words, super tweeters do the opposite job of a subwoofer? Doing the heavy lifting so the mids and tweeters can excel at their jobs? A super tweeter is supposed to do the same but from the higher frequencies, rather than the low?
Question is also about how much energy of such harmonics exists in natural sounds.and can they compete in loudness with average harmonics of listening band? To create resonance at 20 kHz the dimension of source must equal 1/2 wawe length - iti is 0,707 cm and such circle create available surface to emit that frequency. How much air and with what amplitude it can move? Our hearing tends to adopt it's sensitivity to loudest sounds which is not happening when we test hearing in silent laboratory.
Pioneer though they did. Then again, they were the top selling speakers installed in US kennels in the seventies.
I wonder if we hear other frequencies through channels other than our ear drums... Skin... Stomach... Skull...
I have heard tell stories from husbands their wives can hit frequencies that bypass the ears and go directly to the brain. MOW THE DAM LAWN
@@davidfromamerica1871 I highly disagree. 🙊
My wife yells, " mow the lawn!", I don't hear a thing!
🙉
Agree with everything Paul said here. Ultrasonics affecting lower frequencies is an undeniable reality.
Paul is 100% here. I have Aperion ribbon tweeters with my Wharfedale EVO 4.4's and they are glorious.
I could see that being a big help with the 4.4s
@@scottyo64 Yeah, the upper end on the EVO series is gorgeous, but a tad on the shy side. The Aperions really open it up.
Yeah they go tweetzer. Be More better. 🤗
england huh... townshend supertweeters
Let’s discuss formants!!
Does it add to the overall energy output?
My wife noticed a difference with super tweeters even from the next room.
I find, that If I add too much filtering/re-clocking on the USB input to my dac, the sound becomes too warm and a bit claustrophobic at lower sample rates. Specifically when listening with IEMs.
I have to ask then, why aren't you a fan of super tweeters?
Can those two old dudes on the table behind you hear to 20K?
When I was younger. I could hear the 19khz pilot signals on fm stations
What a load of hooey 😂
But do it have an effect if you play a cd? There is no information above 20 kHz on a cd. I guess you need a highres file? Perhaps you also need a super tweeter to get the full benefit from a highres file?
Comb filtering from a super tweeter interfering with the output of the main tweeter and cause nulls in the highs that are very audible. Maybe this is why Paul is not a fan of them.
Great timing, was just debating with my grandparents if i should add them to the next pair of speakers i build for them
I do not like super tweeters at all.
Great explanation, was all new information to me. Always thought supertweeters had no real point in them, but not anymore.
Von Schweikert uses a super tweeter in addition to a regular one. Again it comes down to the room and the gear whether it helps or hurts the presentation
Thanks for the great explanation. I see a lot of experience here.
Nice analogy with the ultraviolet light 👍
Great answer! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Super tweeters are to make your cat's life at home more pleasant and interesting.
Interesting question: I asked Chat GPT about it:
If there are two ultrasonic signals, one at 25000hz and one at 25500hz will I hear a 500 beat note?
No, you will not hear a 500 beat note because ultrasonic signals are beyond the range of human hearing, which typically ranges from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. The two signals at 25000 Hz and 25500 Hz are both ultrasonic and are outside the range of human hearing. However, if two audible signals with frequencies that are close to each other are played simultaneously, it can result in a beat frequency equal to the difference between the two frequencies. This is known as a beat note, and it can be heard as a periodic variation in the loudness of the combined sound.
What beat frequency does my example make?
As the two signals have frequencies of 25000 Hz and 25500 Hz respectively, the beat frequency will be the difference between these two frequencies, which is 500 Hz. However, as I mentioned earlier, this beat frequency is outside the range of human hearing as it is in the ultrasonic range. Humans can hear frequencies up to about 20 kHz, so the beat frequency of 500 Hz produced by the two ultrasonic signals would not be audible to us.
But how is this correct if the beat frequency is in the audible range?
I apologize for my previous response, I misunderstood the frequency values given in the question. If the two signals have frequencies of 25000 Hz and 25500 Hz, respectively, then the beat frequency can be calculated by taking the difference between the two frequencies:
25500 Hz - 25000 Hz = 500 Hz
This beat frequency of 500 Hz is in the audible range and can be heard by humans. When two sound waves with slightly different frequencies are played simultaneously, they interfere with each other, producing a beat frequency equal to the difference between the two frequencies. In this case, you would hear a periodic variation in loudness with a frequency of 500 Hz.
So my curiosity is how much of what is heard from the speakers are the pre-recorded audible beat frequencies vs. the beat frequencies created in real-time from the ultrasound content.
If super tweeter with up to 40 kHz would make sense, there would have been super microphones for a long time that can also "hear" and process such highs.
LRAD systems (usually police or military PA/acoustics weapons) use the phase interruption and encoding of an ultrasound carrier wave to reproduce audio at amazing ranges. The wave pattern ends up looking alot like PDM.
So not only in terms of sound loabing, but as an actual sonic conductor, high frequencies do change our perseption.
You don't notice it's there, but you do notice when it's missing.
Paul please support the anti war movement.
Ahhh. Is that what subwoofers do...air modulation? It makes sense now. Nobody has explained it.
Hi Paul. My question is how can it work if your amplifier only reproduces frequencies up to 20kHz? Also, isn't CD bandwidth limited to the same frequency of 20kHz?
Amplifiers usually go much higher as does high-resolution music.
@@dangerzone007 Some, of course do. But not all, at least the specs say 20Hz to 20kHz. And what about CD limit?
That was my question, as Paul mentions that Class D amps have 20kHz filters to filter out the switching noise.
@@dangerzone007 Yes, they go beyond 20k and don't hit a brick wall, same as for bass below 20hz.
It will depend upon where the super tweeter comes in,which could be at 15 khz and therefore be of benefit.
So if I use a supertweeter Ill get a sound tan?
It’s such a bizarre analogy
NO
Yes, super tweeters add something... COST!
They can also reproduce any supersonic oscillation in the power amplifier too !!
noty if you can't hear above 16khz,lol
Very well explained, Paul. There is also a case for supertweeters in augmenting conventional dome tweeters that can fall off faster than their nominal specifications suggest. I suspect that you are not a fan because you use ribbons:)
Paul’s explanation is good.
Nonetheless … It does add money to the manufacturer and dealer’s bank account. 😊
😎 😎😎
My dogs sure enjoy them...🤣
Less than 20 kHz for an average person
I got to buy two super tweeters now😆🥲