This movie really worked for me. I left with a profound sense of anger and sadness. While at times it did seem a bit repetitive, the end hit me so hard. The false sense of hope showing Elwood as an adult really had me fooled. The last movie I found this affecting was The Zone of Interest which similarly leaves the atrocities to the imagination. I think calling this visual poetry is spot on and for that reason I think it may not work for many.
Great discussion. I've just watched the movie (in the UK) and am craving so much more to digest whilst holding back tears (embarrassing as I'm trying to do a food shop). You've answered a lot of questions I held - I'm grateful! Love Nick's additional titbits which are useful and informative alongside Joseph raising much food for thought (still hungry). Still unsure of the animal symbolism. I loved the film. I feel a handful things were ambigious: -I wish they had shown Turner discard/view the grandmother's care package (it was just randomly bought up a fair bit later - I feel theres a deleted scene) -I found it confusing when actors repeated the same lines (grandma about coming back to hug, the lunch scene from Turner and Elwood's pov) - the woman who has the swimming pool (not quite sure where she comes from) - did Turner lie to say elwood was needed as part of his work force as a lie (no retaliation?) - the cake scene (I struggled to hear what was said if I'm honest) - why did the mexican student (subject to abuse) get moved during the boxing match? - I didn't understand why the white students were shouting "ice-cream"? -after Turner lurns elwood had kept a diary - on the inspection day everyone is having ice cream but it looks as though turner and elwood are on opposite ends of the room with an end to their friendship but turner rums to him after he leaves. - I still dont get who the White Lotus boy is - I'm ashamed I only understood the ending thanks to your explanation Some things I loved: I found it quite hitting how Turner remains just one name with such limited background information. - Turner commenting on Elwood's love of the porridge which opened the door to their connection. I feel the dialogue between students felt very real. - the symbolism of the college leaflet sliding down the fridge door (incredible) in Elwood's kitchen - I liked the discomfort with the two boys being dropped off by the police and Elwood's arrival at the school as the introduction. I found the film deeply beautiful and moving. I liked the POV perspective as a means of forcing us to live/confront the experience all students were forced to. I found myself wincing at times but unable to close my eyes as it felt as though a betrayal. Phenomenal film and cinematography.
Really enjoyed this discussion! I have not read the book but saw the movie today and was confused about several of the plot points, which you guys helped to clear up during this discussion, especially about the switch of character names at the end. The movie makes a lot more sense to me now. I also really appreciate both of your very thoughtful and detailed takes on this movie. I think overall I am feeling more like Joseph felt about it, in terms of it not really being as emotionally impactful as I was hoping/expecting. That scene where the boys are brought to that fan room was absolutely terrifying to me, specifically because of the sound design I think that just got louder and louder as the scene went on. I didn’t know if the boys were being attached to some sort of machine or what was happening, but it was probably one of the most unnerving feelings I’ve had in a film in a long while.
Interesting. I saw and feel similar to Joseph. Not to sound monolithic, I believe white people may like this film more than black people. There's definitely nothing wrong with that because it is masterfully shot(S/O to the cinematographer) but as a black person, I felt like the "creative" direction got in the way of the story so I never got a chance to actually get to know the characters and the plot in an intimate enough way that wasn't centered on looking like a great movie shot.
Finally got the chance to see this. I went in pretty blind about the premise and I have to disagree that I understood that this was more dire than just a summer camp 😭 the ending really got me and I guess I’m one of the few that appreciates nonlinear storytelling.
I'll not only have to watch the film but research the facility. Sleepers was the closest film I saw that depicted extreme childhood abuse in a place like this (later proven to be a fictional story after the fact). It had some great courtroom drama scenes also.
When I saw this I was drawn to its parallels to "Zone Of Interest” in so many ways, these are difficult and challenging topics to screen as entertainment and serve better to inform and educate our personal tropes and expectations. I’m going to be pondering this movie unpacking it slowly as so much care obviously went into its creation.
I was thinking the same as I left the theater, both left me with a similar profound sense of anger and sadness. I’ll be thinking about this movie for a long time.
I enjoyed hearing both of your perspectives but honestly I can't understand the claim that the film underplays the horrors that occurred at the detention center. I felt that so much was hinted at and alluded to that it left me imagining the worst and constantly anxious for the boys. It was a film that demanded a lot from its audience both while watching and after seeing it but they payoff was great. Five out of five stars for me.
Wow, such a great start to the discussion. This movie is showing up in my streaming. I like what you are both saying, the seriousness of the topic and the story telling style and how it resonates with different audiences. Ngl, I'm tired of the new jack city style when it comes to portraying the black American experience. I want heartfelt storytelling that hits the soul through its subtlety 😊 ... Moonlight style comes to mind. We need more of this, esp for the mainstream awards... Less teaching, more storytelling... Anyway, Im only 5mins in the review... And I'm already eager to see the movie. Hehe. Thanks! Hope it lives up to expectations... Thanks for the heads up on the length 🥺
I just came out of a movie, after watching this film. I wept the half of the time. I didn't know the details of this particular story, but I'm aware of some parts of the Black History, so I could figure out more than was showed on screen. I must say that sometimes suggestion works harder than graphic depiction and I think this was the case. That place had lots of elements of a concentration camp to me and the political and era context made it even more harrowing to me. A truly great movie, although strangely modest in its endevour. I just hope people will not compare it to Shawshank Redemption because, although it is tempting, this comparison feels somehow inappropriate.
This movie very much elicited pain within you, Joseph, and I believe, not just myself, this is visible to all of us watching and we are all present with you with what sounds like sadness and disappointment.
I feel the disappointment coming through too, it sounds like watching a slavery story but it only shows a family picking cotton and glosses over the horrors. Usually I don't want to see the horror I know is there, but I don't want to risk anyone else forgetting. Or is more like that Robert Pattinson movie where it's a love story drama, but then the last shot is one of them dying on 9/11? It just feels so...off.
I'm glad I read the book first - as people often say, the book was better than the movie, or at least more detailed with the story fleshed out more which helped when I saw the film after. It was a quick read from Friday night to Saturday night, and it mentally prepared me so I wasn't shocked/surprised when I watched it. I do agree with Joseph that the violence against the boys was minimized on screen, but I suppose that was better than seeing graphic depictions of violence. I noticed two discrepancies/mix-ups in the review, 1. The grandmother didn't give Elwood's birth certificate and SSN to Turner (FL laws were apparently lax in those days and it was easy for Turner to obtain these documents) and 2. There were 4 ways to get out of Nickel Academy, plus Elwood's 5th way, which was for it to be shut down. Overall, I enjoyed the story and am glad it is getting so much buzz right before awards season. It's playing in limited theaters in NY, only one in Brooklyn, which surprised me, so hopefully it gets a wider release this month.
I haven't read Nickel Boys but I some time ago read a short story about that institution, "The Reformatory" by Tananarive Due, who has since published a book by the same name, and it was immersive and horrifying. It's a great story but I know it's primed me to enter this film almost like I entered 12 Years a Slave, like be prepared to be traumatized, and if the story is told well, I'll go there ...but we know that some other stories have just come across as exploitative trauma porn, and I do think storytellers walk a fine line that ends up with a discussion like this, did it minimize it, did it show it unsparingly. Actually hearing that this may not be as traumatizing as I anticipate kind of makes me want to see it more (though I do think the point of sanitizing, minimizing, erasing is a fair one). Good discussion.
re: Turner and Elwood and the book. Elwood gave him the book because he literally had no other options. If it wasn't then, he would never have been able to do it. And at that point Turner knew that the anger tables were turned and he was trying to communicate again with Elwood. Also, it did work which is why Elwood was in the hotbox. If you heard the poker game between Spencer and Blakely, B asks if they're going to get shut down and Spencer said no one in Tallahassee was ever going to tell him what to do. My guess is that it was all for naught because apparently nothing changed. Another reason for Turner to get Elwood and get out! Sorry, I'm spamming, I just really loved this film and enjoy your analysis, but wanted to fill in some spaces.
final note: slang for white people is albino alligators. The scene that was most impactful was the classroom scene where Spencer wasn't fazed, but there were terrified kids standing on their chairs. Spencer wasn't interested in stopping the class or getting rid of the alligator bc he wanted to show dominance of it. That's my read anyhow, I talked with Hamish a little about it and he told me a bit about shooting that day. So wild.
While I don’t think it’s a masterpiece, this film contains the most chilling moment in any film I’ve ever seen- the sound of the fan whilst they get beaten off screen and it’s overlayed with the black and white pictures of the boys, with jarring music. The air felt sickly
I am surprised that the horros and pain didn't resonate with you. RaMell really didn't want to show extreme Black pain and trauma. I didn't feel it was unattached at all, I was in my feelings! :D I'll note that these were meant to be a day in the life. Elwood's parents died in what was alluded to be a car crash, presumably from drunk driving. Also, Elwood was at Nickel approxiamately 8 months.
Also, Turner didn't try to escape resulting in Elwood being killed, he says earlier that it's better to do it on their own terms instead of giving into Nickel. He learned they were going to take Elwood and kill him so he went to get Elwood so they could run away.
I will say, when it started, I prayed it wouldn't be Tree of Life. I can do stream-of-consciousness or shifting POV but NOT both! I was so happy when it settled into basic narrative and the POV moving between Turner and Elwood bc I think the full movie may have made me a bit motion sickness.
Joseph: I totally get what you’re saying. My friend‘s dad grew up in that town and they all thought of the place as a bad evil place. It was the place where young black boys went and were never seen again and I didn’t get that urgency/terror from the movie. Saw it at chicago film fest I remember walking away not feeling terribly impressed. I must watch again.
Joseph says it was grandiosa made simple but we have to understand that to a lot of people there it was simple it was just everyday life for them whether they were the abuser or the abused
This seems like a tale of survival by being plucky, and not naive🤨 - reminds me of *Sleepers* with Kevin Bacon - though this has hope in it seeking justice by law, so, maybe worth the time...☺
I would have given the movie three and a half but after watching this video and having my unanswered questions cleared out…. I am now changing it to a four and a half! 👍👍👍
I totally agree with Joseph here. I was somewhat familiar with the true story that loosely inspired the book/film and it felt very underwhelming for me.
Maybe the countless historical injustices and brutalities that black people have been through are purposefully downplayed and disjointed and ultimately unresolved and uncomfortable so the viewer doesn't forget but FEELS what it feels to be black in America. It never ends, and the injustices still continue.
completely agree, i think the gentleman on the left could be conditioned to seeing these kinds of films one way so when it’s told with a different approach it’s viewed as glossing over the trauma and crimes that were experienced!!
I think that Joseph is looking at the film as a lacking documentary of the academy, but that wasn’t the point of the film. The film was about the relationship of the boys within that environment. I fully get his points but it sounds like all the points are derived from the expectation that the film was going to be something that it wasn’t intending to try and be.
This movie really worked for me. I left with a profound sense of anger and sadness. While at times it did seem a bit repetitive, the end hit me so hard. The false sense of hope showing Elwood as an adult really had me fooled. The last movie I found this affecting was The Zone of Interest which similarly leaves the atrocities to the imagination. I think calling this visual poetry is spot on and for that reason I think it may not work for many.
I enjoy how you two communicate.
There is often great risk in creativity. What a great year in films. Breaking the patterns...
Omg Nick’s face when Joseph says 2.5 lol😂😂😂 the betrayal!
Great discussion. I've just watched the movie (in the UK) and am craving so much more to digest whilst holding back tears (embarrassing as I'm trying to do a food shop).
You've answered a lot of questions I held - I'm grateful!
Love Nick's additional titbits which are useful and informative alongside Joseph raising much food for thought (still hungry).
Still unsure of the animal symbolism.
I loved the film. I feel a handful things were ambigious:
-I wish they had shown Turner discard/view the grandmother's care package (it was just randomly bought up a fair bit later - I feel theres a deleted scene)
-I found it confusing when actors repeated the same lines (grandma about coming back to hug, the lunch scene from Turner and Elwood's pov)
- the woman who has the swimming pool (not quite sure where she comes from)
- did Turner lie to say elwood was needed as part of his work force as a lie (no retaliation?)
- the cake scene (I struggled to hear what was said if I'm honest)
- why did the mexican student (subject to abuse) get moved during the boxing match?
- I didn't understand why the white students were shouting "ice-cream"?
-after Turner lurns elwood had kept a diary - on the inspection day everyone is having ice cream but it looks as though turner and elwood are on opposite ends of the room with an end to their friendship but turner rums to him after he leaves.
- I still dont get who the White Lotus boy is
- I'm ashamed I only understood the ending thanks to your explanation
Some things I loved:
I found it quite hitting how Turner remains just one name with such limited background information.
- Turner commenting on Elwood's love of the porridge which opened the door to their connection. I feel the dialogue between students felt very real.
- the symbolism of the college leaflet sliding down the fridge door (incredible) in Elwood's kitchen
- I liked the discomfort with the two boys being dropped off by the police and Elwood's arrival at the school as the introduction.
I found the film deeply beautiful and moving. I liked the POV perspective as a means of forcing us to live/confront the experience all students were forced to. I found myself wincing at times but unable to close my eyes as it felt as though a betrayal.
Phenomenal film and cinematography.
1:14 omg Nick is a poet
It’s lovely ❤
He didn't even know it!
I snapped when he finished
Joseph should write a screenplay for a movie because he has really great ideas
Right? His ideas sound better than most of the movies!
Feel like I listened to your voices all day 🤗 ( this, the last showgirl and Edward scissorhands) I'm not complaining I love it ❤
Great review. You guys always let me know about films that haven't come on my radar
Really enjoyed this discussion! I have not read the book but saw the movie today and was confused about several of the plot points, which you guys helped to clear up during this discussion, especially about the switch of character names at the end. The movie makes a lot more sense to me now. I also really appreciate both of your very thoughtful and detailed takes on this movie. I think overall I am feeling more like Joseph felt about it, in terms of it not really being as emotionally impactful as I was hoping/expecting. That scene where the boys are brought to that fan room was absolutely terrifying to me, specifically because of the sound design I think that just got louder and louder as the scene went on. I didn’t know if the boys were being attached to some sort of machine or what was happening, but it was probably one of the most unnerving feelings I’ve had in a film in a long while.
Interesting. I saw and feel similar to Joseph. Not to sound monolithic, I believe white people may like this film more than black people. There's definitely nothing wrong with that because it is masterfully shot(S/O to the cinematographer) but as a black person, I felt like the "creative" direction got in the way of the story so I never got a chance to actually get to know the characters and the plot in an intimate enough way that wasn't centered on looking like a great movie shot.
Sounds like one I can’t miss
I like when y’all don’t always agree makes for an interesting review thx as always ❤😊
So is this like a less “in your face” version of sleepers?
Finally got the chance to see this. I went in pretty blind about the premise and I have to disagree that I understood that this was more dire than just a summer camp 😭 the ending really got me and I guess I’m one of the few that appreciates nonlinear storytelling.
I think I heard the cat crying in the background. He or she agrees with Joseph on this review. LOL! ;)
Just watched this in ATL and Joseph I’m more in line with your take. Thank you for the review
I'll not only have to watch the film but research the facility. Sleepers was the closest film I saw that depicted extreme childhood abuse in a place like this (later proven to be a fictional story after the fact). It had some great courtroom drama scenes also.
Okay POP OFF NICK 👏🏽
Love it
When I saw this I was drawn to its parallels to "Zone Of Interest” in so many ways, these are difficult and challenging topics to screen as entertainment and serve better to inform and educate our personal tropes and expectations. I’m going to be pondering this movie unpacking it slowly as so much care obviously went into its creation.
I was thinking the same as I left the theater, both left me with a similar profound sense of anger and sadness. I’ll be thinking about this movie for a long time.
I enjoyed hearing both of your perspectives but honestly I can't understand the claim that the film underplays the horrors that occurred at the detention center. I felt that so much was hinted at and alluded to that it left me imagining the worst and constantly anxious for the boys. It was a film that demanded a lot from its audience both while watching and after seeing it but they payoff was great. Five out of five stars for me.
Wow, such a great start to the discussion. This movie is showing up in my streaming. I like what you are both saying, the seriousness of the topic and the story telling style and how it resonates with different audiences. Ngl, I'm tired of the new jack city style when it comes to portraying the black American experience. I want heartfelt storytelling that hits the soul through its subtlety 😊 ... Moonlight style comes to mind. We need more of this, esp for the mainstream awards... Less teaching, more storytelling... Anyway, Im only 5mins in the review... And I'm already eager to see the movie. Hehe. Thanks! Hope it lives up to expectations... Thanks for the heads up on the length 🥺
I just came out of a movie, after watching this film. I wept the half of the time. I didn't know the details of this particular story, but I'm aware of some parts of the Black History, so I could figure out more than was showed on screen. I must say that sometimes suggestion works harder than graphic depiction and I think this was the case. That place had lots of elements of a concentration camp to me and the political and era context made it even more harrowing to me. A truly great movie, although strangely modest in its endevour. I just hope people will not compare it to Shawshank Redemption because, although it is tempting, this comparison feels somehow inappropriate.
This movie very much elicited pain within you, Joseph, and I believe, not just myself, this is visible to all of us watching and we are all present with you with what sounds like sadness and disappointment.
I feel the disappointment coming through too, it sounds like watching a slavery story but it only shows a family picking cotton and glosses over the horrors. Usually I don't want to see the horror I know is there, but I don't want to risk anyone else forgetting.
Or is more like that Robert Pattinson movie where it's a love story drama, but then the last shot is one of them dying on 9/11? It just feels so...off.
@000zamaru it's from their perspective, so it makes sense that we don't see the whole scope. The horrors are very apparent
I'm glad I read the book first - as people often say, the book was better than the movie, or at least more detailed with the story fleshed out more which helped when I saw the film after. It was a quick read from Friday night to Saturday night, and it mentally prepared me so I wasn't shocked/surprised when I watched it. I do agree with Joseph that the violence against the boys was minimized on screen, but I suppose that was better than seeing graphic depictions of violence. I noticed two discrepancies/mix-ups in the review, 1. The grandmother didn't give Elwood's birth certificate and SSN to Turner (FL laws were apparently lax in those days and it was easy for Turner to obtain these documents) and 2. There were 4 ways to get out of Nickel Academy, plus Elwood's 5th way, which was for it to be shut down. Overall, I enjoyed the story and am glad it is getting so much buzz right before awards season. It's playing in limited theaters in NY, only one in Brooklyn, which surprised me, so hopefully it gets a wider release this month.
I haven't read Nickel Boys but I some time ago read a short story about that institution, "The Reformatory" by Tananarive Due, who has since published a book by the same name, and it was immersive and horrifying. It's a great story but I know it's primed me to enter this film almost like I entered 12 Years a Slave, like be prepared to be traumatized, and if the story is told well, I'll go there ...but we know that some other stories have just come across as exploitative trauma porn, and I do think storytellers walk a fine line that ends up with a discussion like this, did it minimize it, did it show it unsparingly. Actually hearing that this may not be as traumatizing as I anticipate kind of makes me want to see it more (though I do think the point of sanitizing, minimizing, erasing is a fair one). Good discussion.
I came on here to mention THE REFORMATORY. A book I enjoyed and written by one of my top 5 favorite authors, Ms. Tananarive Due.
re: Turner and Elwood and the book. Elwood gave him the book because he literally had no other options. If it wasn't then, he would never have been able to do it. And at that point Turner knew that the anger tables were turned and he was trying to communicate again with Elwood. Also, it did work which is why Elwood was in the hotbox. If you heard the poker game between Spencer and Blakely, B asks if they're going to get shut down and Spencer said no one in Tallahassee was ever going to tell him what to do. My guess is that it was all for naught because apparently nothing changed. Another reason for Turner to get Elwood and get out! Sorry, I'm spamming, I just really loved this film and enjoy your analysis, but wanted to fill in some spaces.
final note: slang for white people is albino alligators. The scene that was most impactful was the classroom scene where Spencer wasn't fazed, but there were terrified kids standing on their chairs. Spencer wasn't interested in stopping the class or getting rid of the alligator bc he wanted to show dominance of it. That's my read anyhow, I talked with Hamish a little about it and he told me a bit about shooting that day. So wild.
Great rundown.❤
While I don’t think it’s a masterpiece, this film contains the most chilling moment in any film I’ve ever seen- the sound of the fan whilst they get beaten off screen and it’s overlayed with the black and white pictures of the boys, with jarring music. The air felt sickly
The book is fantastic. Happy to see it brought to film
the book give a lot of detail if you want to read
I am surprised that the horros and pain didn't resonate with you. RaMell really didn't want to show extreme Black pain and trauma. I didn't feel it was unattached at all, I was in my feelings! :D I'll note that these were meant to be a day in the life. Elwood's parents died in what was alluded to be a car crash, presumably from drunk driving. Also, Elwood was at Nickel approxiamately 8 months.
Also, Turner didn't try to escape resulting in Elwood being killed, he says earlier that it's better to do it on their own terms instead of giving into Nickel. He learned they were going to take Elwood and kill him so he went to get Elwood so they could run away.
I will say, when it started, I prayed it wouldn't be Tree of Life. I can do stream-of-consciousness or shifting POV but NOT both! I was so happy when it settled into basic narrative and the POV moving between Turner and Elwood bc I think the full movie may have made me a bit motion sickness.
I LOVED this book! I didn’t know they made it into a movie!!
Joseph: I totally get what you’re saying. My friend‘s dad grew up in that town and they all thought of the place as a bad evil place. It was the place where young black boys went and were never seen again and I didn’t get that urgency/terror from the movie. Saw it at chicago film fest I remember walking away not feeling terribly impressed. I must watch again.
Joseph says it was grandiosa made simple but we have to understand that to a lot of people there it was simple it was just everyday life for them whether they were the abuser or the abused
This seems like a tale of survival by being plucky, and not naive🤨 - reminds me of *Sleepers* with Kevin Bacon - though this has hope in it seeking justice by law, so, maybe worth the time...☺
Sounds like there is so much sadness burried. 😢
I would have given the movie three and a half but after watching this video and having my unanswered questions cleared out…. I am now changing it to a four and a half! 👍👍👍
I totally agree with Joseph here. I was somewhat familiar with the true story that loosely inspired the book/film and it felt very underwhelming for me.
The book is a great read highly recommend ❤
Maybe the countless historical injustices and brutalities that black people have been through are purposefully downplayed and disjointed and ultimately unresolved and uncomfortable so the viewer doesn't forget but FEELS what it feels to be black in America. It never ends, and the injustices still continue.
completely agree, i think the gentleman on the left could be conditioned to seeing these kinds of films one way so when it’s told with a different approach it’s viewed as glossing over the trauma and crimes that were experienced!!
I think that Joseph is looking at the film as a lacking documentary of the academy, but that wasn’t the point of the film. The film was about the relationship of the boys within that environment. I fully get his points but it sounds like all the points are derived from the expectation that the film was going to be something that it wasn’t intending to try and be.
Good double feature with The Wrestler
So, is Turner an unreliable narrator whose POV should never be trusted?
Huh
Sounds like it
@@Juju-taylor hmmm. A character who is hiding more than we think.
I had to give Nick a couple of snaps 🫰 he is great with his poetic critiques