I'm think either way, there will be a calamity. • most people do not abandon their children, especially when their children are in danger. • I don't think he has discussed his idea with the other gods. He is tired and wants to leave. Only one agrees. The gods are not on the same page. • archheart doesn't care what happens to the world so long as he and his family are safe. He is being selfish and short sighted, the gods will always be on the run with predothos free
@@ZodiacBandit I think it's probably Erathis. Every time I think over all of the gods they all have such strong reasons to stay but her. The Dawnfather, Wildmother, Changebringer and Raven Queen have all been shown to be actively against Ludinus and want to protect Exandria. Bahamut is literally the god of Honour, he isn't leaving. The Ever Light would never leave. Moradin is the god of Creation, he'd never abandon his creations. The Moon Weaver is the goddess of Love, she wouldn't abandon the world if she cares at all. Kord would never turn down the chance to have a good fight (weak sauce, but he's also not a coward who flees worlds with his tail tucked between his legs). Ioun I'm not sure about, but I imagine she wouldn't want thousands of years of history to be flushed down the toilet. The Lawbearer though has strange ideals about order and the gods place in everything, as shown by Downfall. She didn't approve of the gods fight against Aeor, but she knew the weapon had to be destroyed. It is bad that the gods used their power to destroy the city but they had no other option. Aeor was a totalitarian dictatorship ruled by self-centred wizards from the Age of Arcanum, they were bad news. Erathis still acted like it was wrong that they died. She's the most likely to agree with the Arch Heart, her only reason against it would be that her wife needs Exandria (since she's the nature god).
@@matthewmccann-willis162 The Change Bringer would also be a cool and interesting pick. Sure, she's putting resources into stopping the issue which is a little bit of hypocrisy, but it'd make sense for her to understand the importance of change. Maybe she's playing both sides.
Something doesn't add up, Archheart believes that when Predathos wil be free, it will completly disregard mortals for the sake of pursuing gods, therefore making it so that as long as gods will flee, mortlas are safe because Predathos will waste no time, but pursue them. And yet, he shared none of this with the other gods, despite it being a major argument when convincing them to leave. Idk, maybe the theory that the Archheart Bells were talking to was Asmodeus in disguise, does hold some water.
The interesting thing is this is the first time a diety has had a DIRECT conversation with the party. No visions, no vibes, but a point blank discussion. But the thing is: Bell’s Hells is not necessarily obligated to do what the Arch Heart says.
@@feitocomfruta it is the first time they met one face to face like Vox Machina did hopefully they don’t do what he wants but I’m starting to think there’s a chance for some in fighting in the group
@@ZodiacBandit exactly! And it’s still iffy on if she had to best the old god of death or not but there would literally be nothing stopping the ascension of new deities.
@@sandeman1776 My personal head canon is that the m9 are busy re-resealing ukatoa after the solstice. It feels extremely mighty nein of them to seal him away right before all the magical seals of exandria broke (even though I’m pretty sure Matt clarified ukatoa’s seal was fine)
The gods created the framework for life, magic and its use. If the gods leave, will magic leave turning Exandria into Earth? What would happen to beings like Fern, Braius, and Ashton that are infused with magic?
I don't like the plan either. Its like unlocking the door to your home for a killer waiting outside, hoping the killer will chase out the adults and leave the children alone. I dont think Correlen is a coward. He gave gave his children a faulty plan. If they want the the gods to leave they have to take the risks...
He is willing to sacrifice some of his "children" and possibley some of his family, but refuses to kill the members of his family that are the direct cause of the multiple rebellions of his children. Literally shown in the flashback that the god killer weapon was meant for the betrayers and they helped them destroy it the betrayers who staryed the calamity for basically a temper tantrum. It makes no sense.
It makes sense because characters in stories aren't purely logical beings. You have to look at it from the characters perspective, not the audiences perspective.
@@Aurora_Lightbringer Yeha... Following emotions rather than logic is a way to make decisions, and when writing is concerned, it makes for some interesing outcomes
You have your info mixed up. The God killer weapon was meant for ALL of the gods both Prime and Betrayer, but there was a secret group within the project team who sided with the Prime Deities and secretly worked to have the weapon aim at only the Betrayer Gods. But Brennan revealed that this secret was already discovered and accounted for by Aeor so their plan was doomed from the start.
Just curious, is anyone else frustrated with Dorian's easy agreement in risking one of his friends to get rid of the gods in a way that he seems to think doesn't make him a bad guy for getting them killed? Could even include Ashton to a slightly lesser extent, Ashton seemed neutral, while Dorian seemed eager. They don't know what would happen to Imogen or Fearne, or what would happen to Exandria without divine protections. Sure eventually life would adapt, but when the demons and other entities held back from the prime plane by divine means show up... it will not be a good time for the world for a long time.
Dorian is just a pissy child of a god. Maybe in time he will change but compared to real life, he's just a angry atheist that has no logical thought to back himself up. Just filled with self pity/self anger. In regards to the gods and belief. NOT talking about how he treats other beings outside of gods.
I've just been wondering what happens to magic if the gods are gone. Like would people who get their magic from worship in divine forces like Pike, Fjord, or Cad just loose their magic or would they keep it?
also what happens to the champions? Would Vax and Opal be free from Lolth and the Raven Queen or would they go with them? Also can we please help Vax he has been a lens for a while now...
@@Battleguyplayz these are all excellent questions if you believe what Ludinus is saying there was magic before them then the people should keep it but if you believe magic especially the current generation of magic is reliant on the gods it’ll probably no longer exist BUT it’s honestly just a unknown to the point the arch heart has no idea what will happen
Yea the ask of, go take care of P alone and ahead of all others is incredibly difficult. Idk maybe CR is putting all the possibilities on the table but I dont want to lose out on some oneshots of the other partys
Honestly ive watched this interaction three times, and while I do believe hes a bit of a coward here, heres what I boiled their three choices down to: Either they A. Continue as Planned and Attempt to stop Ludacris from awakening him and stopping the calamity, renewing the cycle. Possibly making the gods either send Rudidus away and sealing the Relorans who do want to leave to isolation again. B. Fail, die, and have the gods step in wheb they expect Predathos to be unleashed. Whether or not they stop the breaking is up in the air. C. Potentially listen to him, hijack the efforts to unleash predathos on their own terms, Possibly sacrifice imogen or fern, and MAYBE chase off the gods. A and B we know have at least some sort of concrete cause and effect. C is, and even though the plan is coming from a god. Its clear that hes rolling the dice too. I see the merit in his plan. Because its either (from his point of view) sacrificing one or two for a better chance of stopping the calamity and getting his kin to move on since he himself said that they are animals that will prioritize their survival over anything. Yes hes selfish, but at least hes trying to communicate with them in a direct manner. Thats my two cents on it tho.
Can I mention one thing? WHAT THE HELL HAPPEND TO ZATHUDA DURING THE CONVERSATION?! Dude got completely sidelined into the void for the entirety of it, in spite of perhaps having the most to do with Archheart. Can you imagine his reaction to the information, that he's goals actually align with The Archheart to full degree?
@@Banquet42 I don’t think it’s her she’s someone who rose to power and wants to keep it badly enough she allies with the betrayers I don’t think she wants to give it up
That's the thing. He wont start another calamity. The calamaty would be between the gods and predothos. The mortals would be left alone, unless the gods make it so they dont.
@@TheChriscount all the gods agree as of right now that predathos is a threat that’s why the betrayers have people working with the armies of exandria so the arch heart is probably lying about that
@@Duriel123 based on what evidence does anyone know Predators would not target mortals? All we know is that Predathos eats gods, but we don't know if that's their only source of food. Predators generally aren't picky about what shape their food comes in.
The triple attack still happens with this plan though, only at the end they actually free Predathos instead of killing ludinus and bouncing. I think it works
I don't know why they even want to stop Predathos's release anymore, or control it. They didn't side with Ludinus because of the risk of Predathos posed to the people but if they believe the Archheart then their is no risk. The Archheart confirmed that Predathos won't kill mortals just Gods, they have seen the God eater at work so he would know. If Ludinus wins then they release Predathos then the Gods either die or leave, either Imogen or Fearne have to be sacrificed for this to be accomplished. The Archheart does claim that they wouldn't be noticed by the Gods but he noticed them. So if they agree with him then they should've sided with Ludinus.
@@karlstoker04 he could 100% be lying about predathos killing mortals but again he might not have been around long enough to kill then the gods might’ve dealt with him fast enough and what Orym said can’t be ignored he’d likely step on the mortals as he’s killing gods people will still die the very same people he wants to let grow without the gods
@@ZodiacBandit I feel like it more Matt saying it then the Archheart. I think that Matt wants to get rid of the Gods in some form, since CR's content has been moving away from D&D IP. Their books don't use the OGL, they use non copyright terms and names (e.g. Dawnfather not Pelor). C3 has been headed towards removing the last remnants of D&D copyright from CR's content. They also just released Daggerheart, their original TTRPG. I hope they don't switch from 5E to Daggerheart, in my own opinion it won't work for a long run 100+ episode campaign with the lack of variety compared to 5E - it works better EXU or oneshots.
I don't think this new plan invalidates the other plan. VM & MN assaults would be the distraction while BH instead of facing off with Ludinus, they would be trying to get passed him. They still need the other battles to keep the enemies AND the gods attention off of them. & The world doesn't need gods. Just a few unlikely heroes from time to time...
@Banquet42 I just mean it's getting very obvious Matt is more than ready to nuke his world to make way for Daggerfall or whatever Which, let's be real, will fail spectacularly as a business decision
@@RatShadows definitely a possibility; hope it doesn't end up that way though. I woud be shocked if there are no character deaths in the one shots, or even a tpk.
@@RatShadowsalso this entire reveal from the arch heart is showing another path the party could choose to take, nothing more railroady then showing the party more options
If he's a coward so are most of the PCs. I think "selfish" is the word you're looking for. And they all are EXTREMELY selfish. They only care about their close circle of buddies/family.
@@ZodiacBandit he doesn't have to do either though. He has no obligation towards his creations, and he's understandably fed up with his family. I'm well aware he's being framed in a negative light but ironically he's far from being the worst, and I'm not talking about just the gods.
What if the gods are gone, what's to stop people raising themselves to godhood (as the Raven Queen did and Vekna tried)? It seems we're back to square one. Another thing to consider.
We'd have to assume Predatos would just be spawn-camping like it's a COD lobby instead of chasing the ones who run. Why chase a few escapees when you could own the factory?
The truth is probs crit rolls desire to separate from WOTC( which valid) I don't think dnd is over especially because daggerheart is just not up to par, however I wouldn't be surprised if Matt regardless of how it looks or makes sense narrative wise the gods die/leave. More than likely campaign four will either follow characters that become gods(npcs/pcs) or skip all that and say hey its been over a million years since that happened here is a new pantheon(that crit role has full creative control over). TBH it makes sense from a business perspective but honestly feels gross, because I always looked to crit role as a group who was serious about the story they were telling and instead it just feels so corporate and greedy........
@mikonyx7712 Yes, the two are not mutually exclusive and can both be true. It feels greedy and corporate because it appears that they are choosing to prioritize what would be best for the business instead of weaving a narrative that makes sense. I never said it was wrong to do so. It's clearly a no-win situation as sacrificing the narrative goes against the values that they stand for, but between doing what's best for the business( that even if they don't see as a for profit thing, clearly pays the bills for the entire support team) and trying to move away from hasbro for there greedy practices they have to choose which values to sacrifice. It's the logical choice. It's just lamentable that the main product has to suffer for it.
Having Corellon show up and save the party members in the temple and then rebuild it didn’t bother me at all. I think it’s quite Shakespearean, actually. He was the deus ex machina that comes and rights things. But Corellon does more than just be the god in the machine. He complicates that trope because he presents the solution that none of the party was expecting by asking them to release Predathos. Also, as you point out, Corellon is not being very god-like at all in asking them to do it while he turns tail and runs. It advances a line of exploration that has become central to campaign 3. What does it mean to be a god? Is it just world-breaking power? Or is it leadership and care?
I don't have opinions on the in-world stuff but I suspect this really is the end of Exandria as we know it either way, and Matt's giving his players a choice how to go out - classic heroic fantasy or moody morally-ambiguous Calamity/Downfall storytelling. As for Chetney, I wonder if his CEO player needs some time to decide what would be better for the brand long-term...
@@brobison75 I like how split people are over this if the world is gonna be changed or if they’ll keep exandria around and keep playing dnd or switch to dagger heart
@ZodiacBandit Even hotter take: Matt's leaving the decision about whether the next campaign will be Exandria/D&D or whatever/Daggerheart in the hands of his players. From a business development perspective it seems absolutely insane to leave such a big choice up to, basically, the personalities of eight fictional characters, but it would also be pretty on-brand. Or the decision could already be made and the person who said the end could get totally railroaded has it. But who knows? At least it's fun to think about how fiction and reality might be influencing each other :-)
@@ZodiacBandit It's definitely core to the character though. This guy would rather live a hedonistic life dancing around in the fields of grass instead of dealing with his problems (such as his ex wife abusing his children just to get back at him). Very fey coded.
i agree, and actually i had a idea that i dont know how the players dont think of this. Could the gods not just pin the chain oblivion versus predatos, and whoever came on top they would jump ontop. I mean the Chained oblivion injured AION and almost killed the pantheon. So if Both eat gods and destroy then let them fight. Would predatos not want to eat The chained Oblivion too?! i mean its souns like 1 stone 2 Big ass birds
I'm all for changing exandria, showing us what it would look like without the gods. What i don't want is it to turn into daggerheart. If they are working on a new setting with exandria fir the new 2024 ruleset, even that is okay. Also, I'm excited to see one shots that fill in the blanks.
@@clintr1356 I’d much rather them just change up exandria for the new rules (even though I’m not a huge fan of some changes) then them switch it to daggerheart It’s hard to get a feel for what they are going for as Matt has said he is thinking about a world with and without the gods so who knows
Apparently the Arch Heart doesn't take into consideration how many people on Exandria don't even worship the gods and make their way in the world without relying on them. Not to mention, what happens to the Feywild when he and the Moonweaver bail? Does it just keep on trucking without them, or will it collapse without their power/influence? I agree that the Arch Heart is being extremely cowardly and selfish. I loved Abu's portrayal of the Arch Heart in Downfall, but this kinda pissed me off. I'm a parent, and would never abandon my kids because they rebelled against my wishes. You don't get to dip just cause things are hard. Also, with Dorian, what about your brother? No resurrection if the gods are gone. No healing magic if the gods are gone. I don't think most of the Hells who want the gods gone, are thinking about the ramifications. What about Laudna? If the Arch Heart, who gave magic to mortals in the first place, leaves, will magic go with him? Since Laudna is 100% reliant on magic to live, will she just keel over if the gods bounce? Finally, what about the elemental realms? The gods are who separated the elemental planes from the face of Exandria in the first place. Will the power of the elements come crashing back into Exandria in full-force, like they were before the gods did this? Too many unanswered questions to just unilaterally decide that the gods need to go.
This is the Final breathes before the end of the Game .....and more Importantly this System..... DaggerHeart looms all.....the End of this was Decided where they decided to create there own gaming system.... Remember when Matt destroyed Iman in Camp.1....he was crushed....but he did it for the Storyline.....it's That again....only Bigger....I Hope I'm Wrong
I have a hard time believing that even an exalted one could control it alone. Even with Ferne and Imogen working together somehow I doubt that they can do it. If they follow this new plan it will 99.9% blow up in their faces.
@@whiskeySe7en while I don’t personally care for the gods outside of the wild mother and the storm lord I don’t think Ludinus is right he blames them for all the troubles of the world when it’s mostly been people causing problems Did the gods kill the smartest minds in the world yes did they have reasons yes did they kill more then necessary no they all had the knowledge of killing the gods kept themselves alive that feels fair to me
Yes, his is a coward his plan is let lose the god eater and run with him having a head start. What is stopping him from leaving now just saying to his family (that his current plan is to abandon them), "Hey, I'm sick of this, I'm sick of the cycles of growth of our creations then you destroying them to assert dominance. I'm leaving. " it gets him the same results, and maybe better as predathos won't follow him, he can start again but walk alongside them as equals, helping them grow. But there's also another option in a divine sacrifice in vecna he became a god and he isn't family to the prime so why not throw him at the god eater.
@@ZodiacBandit no he doesn't if anything that robot Speakeasy from the downfall special would be what his new world would be like and there would be no betrayer gods or other primes to force their own way of thinking on them and no predathos so he can be there forever watching there growth. Hell have all the gods leave and build there own worlds out there could give us a cool future space version of critical role like starfinder is to pathfinder and they could have a show of them running starfinder that ties in to the critical role we've known for 10 years
There our many guesses in his solutions and not enough logic or reason so in a way yeah he kinda is and I hope that Dorian and Ashton see the big Consequence to his plan
Oryms argument isnt a good one at all imo. Its a tired and over used stance to take. "Thousands of ants everyday"? First of all, no he doesnt, no one does. You might accidentally step on One ant a day. And i dont know anyone over the age of 4 who goes around jumping on ant hills. AND most kids i know go out of their way to protect little bugs and make little terrariums for them. Orym just hates ludanis, and thats valid 100%. Ludanis is a piece of shit. But he's also right
i've saying on reddit but i saw 3 things. 1) All of the Arch Heart talk felt like "Ludinus IS RIGHT but wrong in his execution. Everything is going to shit, we're this 🤏🏽 close to a second calamity, so why dont y'all take advantage ludinus's plan and do it first?" 2) Matt keeps coming back to one of the main themes of the campaign: Divinity. BUT the players aint interested in that, thats why they talk about it a bit and then jump to character development inside of the main narrative but without interest in it. This keeps happening because he's trying to make the characters care for the gods and be heroes (he even bestowed titles upon them even tho some of them attacked a temple of the dawnfather). 3)Orym is in conflicted because 2 gods told him diffeerent things and his potential love interest is totally against the gods, but he's also in denial: That line of "i dont have a god"? dude... come on, the wildemother has been with you since ExU, she give youa sword and a vision. Maybe you dont consider yourself a follower but she choose you.
@@hadesblackplays out of all of this the thing I’m most interested in is the relationship with Dorian and Orym they are on polar opposite sides of this conversation it’s crazy
I love the way he was introduced. People complain too much
I agree with everything you said, I feel like the gods can't just "leave" because they're cowards, so many people depend on the gods.
@@shadowfluf 100% they amount of people screwed over would be insane
I'm think either way, there will be a calamity.
• most people do not abandon their children, especially when their children are in danger.
• I don't think he has discussed his idea with the other gods. He is tired and wants to leave. Only one agrees. The gods are not on the same page.
• archheart doesn't care what happens to the world so long as he and his family are safe. He is being selfish and short sighted, the gods will always be on the run with predothos free
@@mabusxb856 maybe he should talk to them then but it’s still interesting one of them agree with him I wonder who?
@@ZodiacBandit I think it's probably Erathis. Every time I think over all of the gods they all have such strong reasons to stay but her.
The Dawnfather, Wildmother, Changebringer and Raven Queen have all been shown to be actively against Ludinus and want to protect Exandria. Bahamut is literally the god of Honour, he isn't leaving. The Ever Light would never leave. Moradin is the god of Creation, he'd never abandon his creations. The Moon Weaver is the goddess of Love, she wouldn't abandon the world if she cares at all. Kord would never turn down the chance to have a good fight (weak sauce, but he's also not a coward who flees worlds with his tail tucked between his legs). Ioun I'm not sure about, but I imagine she wouldn't want thousands of years of history to be flushed down the toilet.
The Lawbearer though has strange ideals about order and the gods place in everything, as shown by Downfall. She didn't approve of the gods fight against Aeor, but she knew the weapon had to be destroyed. It is bad that the gods used their power to destroy the city but they had no other option. Aeor was a totalitarian dictatorship ruled by self-centred wizards from the Age of Arcanum, they were bad news. Erathis still acted like it was wrong that they died. She's the most likely to agree with the Arch Heart, her only reason against it would be that her wife needs Exandria (since she's the nature god).
@@matthewmccann-willis162
The Change Bringer would also be a cool and interesting pick.
Sure, she's putting resources into stopping the issue which is a little bit of hypocrisy, but it'd make sense for her to understand the importance of change. Maybe she's playing both sides.
Something doesn't add up, Archheart believes that when Predathos wil be free, it will completly disregard mortals for the sake of pursuing gods,
therefore making it so that as long as gods will flee, mortlas are safe because Predathos will waste no time, but pursue them.
And yet, he shared none of this with the other gods, despite it being a major argument when convincing them to leave.
Idk, maybe the theory that the Archheart Bells were talking to was Asmodeus in disguise, does hold some water.
People are so weird. They care more about the possibility of a PC dying than an excellent storyline with a wonderful guest and a fantastic twist. 🤦♀️
The interesting thing is this is the first time a diety has had a DIRECT conversation with the party. No visions, no vibes, but a point blank discussion.
But the thing is: Bell’s Hells is not necessarily obligated to do what the Arch Heart says.
@@feitocomfruta it is the first time they met one face to face like Vox Machina did hopefully they don’t do what he wants but I’m starting to think there’s a chance for some in fighting in the group
Also wasn’t convinced that beings couldnt fill the power vacuum left by the gods in the first place, if they abandon their domains over Exandria.
@@DaBogDweller oh for sure someone else would step up like the raven queen did
@@ZodiacBandit exactly! And it’s still iffy on if she had to best the old god of death or not but there would literally be nothing stopping the ascension of new deities.
Ukatoa
@@sandeman1776 My personal head canon is that the m9 are busy re-resealing ukatoa after the solstice. It feels extremely mighty nein of them to seal him away right before all the magical seals of exandria broke (even though I’m pretty sure Matt clarified ukatoa’s seal was fine)
The gods created the framework for life, magic and its use. If the gods leave, will magic leave turning Exandria into Earth? What would happen to beings like Fern, Braius, and Ashton that are infused with magic?
I don't like the plan either. Its like unlocking the door to your home for a killer waiting outside, hoping the killer will chase out the adults and leave the children alone. I dont think Correlen is a coward. He gave gave his children a faulty plan. If they want the the gods to leave they have to take the risks...
As are we all, if we were not cowards, we would have died out.
Raven Queen is definietly going to be interesting to talk to, considering she herself, was a mortal at one point
He is willing to sacrifice some of his "children" and possibley some of his family, but refuses to kill the members of his family that are the direct cause of the multiple rebellions of his children. Literally shown in the flashback that the god killer weapon was meant for the betrayers and they helped them destroy it the betrayers who staryed the calamity for basically a temper tantrum. It makes no sense.
It makes sense because characters in stories aren't purely logical beings.
You have to look at it from the characters perspective, not the audiences perspective.
@@Aurora_Lightbringer Yeha... Following emotions rather than logic is a way to make decisions,
and when writing is concerned, it makes for some interesing outcomes
You have your info mixed up. The God killer weapon was meant for ALL of the gods both Prime and Betrayer, but there was a secret group within the project team who sided with the Prime Deities and secretly worked to have the weapon aim at only the Betrayer Gods.
But Brennan revealed that this secret was already discovered and accounted for by Aeor so their plan was doomed from the start.
Just curious, is anyone else frustrated with Dorian's easy agreement in risking one of his friends to get rid of the gods in a way that he seems to think doesn't make him a bad guy for getting them killed? Could even include Ashton to a slightly lesser extent, Ashton seemed neutral, while Dorian seemed eager. They don't know what would happen to Imogen or Fearne, or what would happen to Exandria without divine protections. Sure eventually life would adapt, but when the demons and other entities held back from the prime plane by divine means show up... it will not be a good time for the world for a long time.
Dorian is just a pissy child of a god. Maybe in time he will change but compared to real life, he's just a angry atheist that has no logical thought to back himself up. Just filled with self pity/self anger. In regards to the gods and belief. NOT talking about how he treats other beings outside of gods.
It's asmodius. It's the big betrayal
@@Chris-rz6ft Travis has been right all along
@@ZodiacBandit the lore hound did it again. Molaesmyr was indeed the key to resolve everything
I've just been wondering what happens to magic if the gods are gone. Like would people who get their magic from worship in divine forces like Pike, Fjord, or Cad just loose their magic or would they keep it?
also what happens to the champions? Would Vax and Opal be free from Lolth and the Raven Queen or would they go with them? Also can we please help Vax he has been a lens for a while now...
@@Battleguyplayz these are all excellent questions if you believe what Ludinus is saying there was magic before them then the people should keep it but if you believe magic especially the current generation of magic is reliant on the gods it’ll probably no longer exist BUT it’s honestly just a unknown to the point the arch heart has no idea what will happen
Also Dorian shows us that some people are willing to control or direct P so what about bringing this plan to Em's mom to gather allies?
Yea the ask of, go take care of P alone and ahead of all others is incredibly difficult. Idk maybe CR is putting all the possibilities on the table but I dont want to lose out on some oneshots of the other partys
@@kase1898 losing the one shots by going with this plan would be the biggest loss
Honestly ive watched this interaction three times, and while I do believe hes a bit of a coward here, heres what I boiled their three choices down to:
Either they
A. Continue as Planned and Attempt to stop Ludacris from awakening him and stopping the calamity, renewing the cycle. Possibly making the gods either send Rudidus away and sealing the Relorans who do want to leave to isolation again.
B. Fail, die, and have the gods step in wheb they expect Predathos to be unleashed. Whether or not they stop the breaking is up in the air.
C. Potentially listen to him, hijack the efforts to unleash predathos on their own terms, Possibly sacrifice imogen or fern, and MAYBE chase off the gods.
A and B we know have at least some sort of concrete cause and effect. C is, and even though the plan is coming from a god. Its clear that hes rolling the dice too. I see the merit in his plan. Because its either (from his point of view) sacrificing one or two for a better chance of stopping the calamity and getting his kin to move on since he himself said that they are animals that will prioritize their survival over anything. Yes hes selfish, but at least hes trying to communicate with them in a direct manner. Thats my two cents on it tho.
Wow strong words for this title. I'm interested
Can I mention one thing? WHAT THE HELL HAPPEND TO ZATHUDA DURING THE CONVERSATION?!
Dude got completely sidelined into the void for the entirety of it, in spite of perhaps having the most to do with Archheart. Can you imagine his reaction to the information, that he's goals actually align with The Archheart to full degree?
Actually that’s a great question is he running away now? Lol
Yes he is a coward but if the plan works, IF BIG IF the Gods are gone. I'm conflicted. I don't know which way would be best.
I don't think the Raven Queen would be in on any plan that includes the imprisonment of her champion.
Unless it is a MASSIVE misdirect.
@@Banquet42 I don’t think it’s her she’s someone who rose to power and wants to keep it badly enough she allies with the betrayers I don’t think she wants to give it up
@ZodiacBandit the raven queen showed members of Bell's Hells that she would leave if prodothos was released.
@@adamgettings2557 she would leave out of fear but I doubt she wants to do so
He's a cowered because he wants to leave instead of starting a norther war with his family that goes nowhere?
That's the thing. He wont start another calamity. The calamaty would be between the gods and predothos. The mortals would be left alone, unless the gods make it so they dont.
@@TheChriscount all the gods agree as of right now that predathos is a threat that’s why the betrayers have people working with the armies of exandria so the arch heart is probably lying about that
Damn dude. are you dense? 12? Cause your spelling is abysmal and your rationale even worse.
Yeah but in this war gods dying will actually be on the table from the start
@@Duriel123 based on what evidence does anyone know Predators would not target mortals? All we know is that Predathos eats gods, but we don't know if that's their only source of food. Predators generally aren't picky about what shape their food comes in.
I understand the Arch Heart's plan and desires in concept, but the idea that the Gods leaving a power vacuum is still a big concern
@@Mightymajin oh it’s almost as bad as risking the live of your family in a maybe
The triple attack still happens with this plan though, only at the end they actually free Predathos instead of killing ludinus and bouncing. I think it works
@@Joik2 they could go that route but the arch heart wants them to move before the army moves as the other gods are waiting for the army to
I don't know why they even want to stop Predathos's release anymore, or control it. They didn't side with Ludinus because of the risk of Predathos posed to the people but if they believe the Archheart then their is no risk.
The Archheart confirmed that Predathos won't kill mortals just Gods, they have seen the God eater at work so he would know. If Ludinus wins then they release Predathos then the Gods either die or leave, either Imogen or Fearne have to be sacrificed for this to be accomplished.
The Archheart does claim that they wouldn't be noticed by the Gods but he noticed them. So if they agree with him then they should've sided with Ludinus.
@@karlstoker04 he could 100% be lying about predathos killing mortals but again he might not have been around long enough to kill then the gods might’ve dealt with him fast enough and what Orym said can’t be ignored he’d likely step on the mortals as he’s killing gods people will still die the very same people he wants to let grow without the gods
@@ZodiacBandit I feel like it more Matt saying it then the Archheart. I think that Matt wants to get rid of the Gods in some form, since CR's content has been moving away from D&D IP.
Their books don't use the OGL, they use non copyright terms and names (e.g. Dawnfather not Pelor). C3 has been headed towards removing the last remnants of D&D copyright from CR's content.
They also just released Daggerheart, their original TTRPG. I hope they don't switch from 5E to Daggerheart, in my own opinion it won't work for a long run 100+ episode campaign with the lack of variety compared to 5E - it works better EXU or oneshots.
I don't think this new plan invalidates the other plan. VM & MN assaults would be the distraction while BH instead of facing off with Ludinus, they would be trying to get passed him. They still need the other battles to keep the enemies AND the gods attention off of them.
& The world doesn't need gods. Just a few unlikely heroes from time to time...
Feels like the end of this campaign is gunna get reaaaaal railroady
Dunno, now that we know the Malius (sp?) keys could be very well defended, it could make some of the one shots very interesting...
@Banquet42 I just mean it's getting very obvious Matt is more than ready to nuke his world to make way for Daggerfall or whatever
Which, let's be real, will fail spectacularly as a business decision
@@RatShadows definitely a possibility; hope it doesn't end up that way though. I woud be shocked if there are no character deaths in the one shots, or even a tpk.
@@RatShadowsalso this entire reveal from the arch heart is showing another path the party could choose to take, nothing more railroady then showing the party more options
@@tromar5758honestly this was what I was thinking reading this
Love the video, great thoughts. Pppplease adjust you pop filter.
@@SmurfeyBlues I don’t have one that might be the issue with that lol
I’ve got some news!
If he's a coward so are most of the PCs. I think "selfish" is the word you're looking for. And they all are EXTREMELY selfish. They only care about their close circle of buddies/family.
@@8Smoker8 i mean he’s both he won’t fight he won’t sacrifice he’s both
@@ZodiacBandit he doesn't have to do either though. He has no obligation towards his creations, and he's understandably fed up with his family.
I'm well aware he's being framed in a negative light but ironically he's far from being the worst, and I'm not talking about just the gods.
What if the gods are gone, what's to stop people raising themselves to godhood (as the Raven Queen did and Vekna tried)? It seems we're back to square one. Another thing to consider.
@@donbrooke1854 if the gods leave there’s a lot of room at the top
We'd have to assume Predatos would just be spawn-camping like it's a COD lobby instead of chasing the ones who run.
Why chase a few escapees when you could own the factory?
@@Aurora_Lightbringer the ability to do so isn’t known as of right now it would take time for someone to rise up long enough he might chase the others
I still don't understand the exalted mechanics.
The truth is probs crit rolls desire to separate from WOTC( which valid) I don't think dnd is over especially because daggerheart is just not up to par, however I wouldn't be surprised if Matt regardless of how it looks or makes sense narrative wise the gods die/leave. More than likely campaign four will either follow characters that become gods(npcs/pcs) or skip all that and say hey its been over a million years since that happened here is a new pantheon(that crit role has full creative control over). TBH it makes sense from a business perspective but honestly feels gross, because I always looked to crit role as a group who was serious about the story they were telling and instead it just feels so corporate and greedy........
It feels corporate and greedy to free yourself from a greedy corporation? The fuk?
@mikonyx7712 Yes, the two are not mutually exclusive and can both be true. It feels greedy and corporate because it appears that they are choosing to prioritize what would be best for the business instead of weaving a narrative that makes sense. I never said it was wrong to do so. It's clearly a no-win situation as sacrificing the narrative goes against the values that they stand for, but between doing what's best for the business( that even if they don't see as a for profit thing, clearly pays the bills for the entire support team) and trying to move away from hasbro for there greedy practices they have to choose which values to sacrifice. It's the logical choice. It's just lamentable that the main product has to suffer for it.
This is believable.
Agreed but Tired people dont care anyway.
@@soldier660 very true
Having Corellon show up and save the party members in the temple and then rebuild it didn’t bother me at all. I think it’s quite Shakespearean, actually. He was the deus ex machina that comes and rights things. But Corellon does more than just be the god in the machine. He complicates that trope because he presents the solution that none of the party was expecting by asking them to release Predathos. Also, as you point out, Corellon is not being very god-like at all in asking them to do it while he turns tail and runs. It advances a line of exploration that has become central to campaign 3. What does it mean to be a god? Is it just world-breaking power? Or is it leadership and care?
I don't have opinions on the in-world stuff but I suspect this really is the end of Exandria as we know it either way, and Matt's giving his players a choice how to go out - classic heroic fantasy or moody morally-ambiguous Calamity/Downfall storytelling.
As for Chetney, I wonder if his CEO player needs some time to decide what would be better for the brand long-term...
@@brobison75 I like how split people are over this if the world is gonna be changed or if they’ll keep exandria around and keep playing dnd or switch to dagger heart
@ZodiacBandit Even hotter take: Matt's leaving the decision about whether the next campaign will be Exandria/D&D or whatever/Daggerheart in the hands of his players. From a business development perspective it seems absolutely insane to leave such a big choice up to, basically, the personalities of eight fictional characters, but it would also be pretty on-brand.
Or the decision could already be made and the person who said the end could get totally railroaded has it.
But who knows? At least it's fun to think about how fiction and reality might be influencing each other :-)
I loved Abu.
I don't like the ArchHeart. And I don't mean that by Abu's portrayal or playing, but that he's a coward that's plan will ruin C3.
@@andrewdowns3673 oh Abu killed it (I should have made that clearer) he was fantastic and did a great job of making me not like the arch heart
The Archheart is picking the high risk high reward option, over the safe option of the gods intervention. How is that a coward.
@@mrbaldy1665 the unwillingness to fight for your children and family is textbook cowardice
@@ZodiacBandit
It's definitely core to the character though.
This guy would rather live a hedonistic life dancing around in the fields of grass instead of dealing with his problems (such as his ex wife abusing his children just to get back at him). Very fey coded.
@@Aurora_Lightbringer doesn’t make him less of a coward in fact that just sounds like an excuse
@@ZodiacBandit Yeah, I agree.
@@Aurora_Lightbringer I like that.
i agree, and actually i had a idea that i dont know how the players dont think of this. Could the gods not just pin the chain oblivion versus predatos, and whoever came on top they would jump ontop. I mean the Chained oblivion injured AION and almost killed the pantheon. So if Both eat gods and destroy then let them fight. Would predatos not want to eat The chained Oblivion too?! i mean its souns like 1 stone 2 Big ass birds
@@neonproxyx3982 I think the implication is predathos would eat even the chained oblivion which would be wild
That's not the title you suggested at first during your recap!
@@Banquet42 gotta keep it PG haha and I don’t remember it what was the title?
@@ZodiacBandit something like "The Arch Heart is a f***ing B****!" but you did say you probably weren't going to call it that!
I'm all for changing exandria, showing us what it would look like without the gods. What i don't want is it to turn into daggerheart.
If they are working on a new setting with exandria fir the new 2024 ruleset, even that is okay.
Also, I'm excited to see one shots that fill in the blanks.
@@clintr1356 I’d much rather them just change up exandria for the new rules (even though I’m not a huge fan of some changes) then them switch it to daggerheart
It’s hard to get a feel for what they are going for as Matt has said he is thinking about a world with and without the gods so who knows
The Video at first glance is like some Gruumsh propaganda lol
@@Ed-or6fe all hail Gruumsh
Apparently the Arch Heart doesn't take into consideration how many people on Exandria don't even worship the gods and make their way in the world without relying on them. Not to mention, what happens to the Feywild when he and the Moonweaver bail? Does it just keep on trucking without them, or will it collapse without their power/influence? I agree that the Arch Heart is being extremely cowardly and selfish. I loved Abu's portrayal of the Arch Heart in Downfall, but this kinda pissed me off. I'm a parent, and would never abandon my kids because they rebelled against my wishes. You don't get to dip just cause things are hard. Also, with Dorian, what about your brother? No resurrection if the gods are gone. No healing magic if the gods are gone. I don't think most of the Hells who want the gods gone, are thinking about the ramifications. What about Laudna? If the Arch Heart, who gave magic to mortals in the first place, leaves, will magic go with him? Since Laudna is 100% reliant on magic to live, will she just keel over if the gods bounce? Finally, what about the elemental realms? The gods are who separated the elemental planes from the face of Exandria in the first place. Will the power of the elements come crashing back into Exandria in full-force, like they were before the gods did this? Too many unanswered questions to just unilaterally decide that the gods need to go.
This is the Final breathes before the end of the Game .....and more Importantly this System..... DaggerHeart looms all.....the End of this was Decided where they decided to create there own gaming system.... Remember when Matt destroyed Iman in Camp.1....he was crushed....but he did it for the Storyline.....it's That again....only Bigger....I Hope I'm Wrong
W Grumsh Propaganda
I have a hard time believing that even an exalted one could control it alone. Even with Ferne and Imogen working together somehow I doubt that they can do it. If they follow this new plan it will 99.9% blow up in their faces.
@@vobgreat 1000000000% agree
Theyve stated nothing avout how anything works because all 4partys dont know what there doing
Critical role fandom is "I love the gods they're awesome" blinded by campaign 1 lore. Luda is right
@@whiskeySe7en while I don’t personally care for the gods outside of the wild mother and the storm lord I don’t think Ludinus is right he blames them for all the troubles of the world when it’s mostly been people causing problems
Did the gods kill the smartest minds in the world yes did they have reasons yes did they kill more then necessary no they all had the knowledge of killing the gods kept themselves alive that feels fair to me
Yes, his is a coward his plan is let lose the god eater and run with him having a head start. What is stopping him from leaving now just saying to his family (that his current plan is to abandon them), "Hey, I'm sick of this, I'm sick of the cycles of growth of our creations then you destroying them to assert dominance. I'm leaving. " it gets him the same results, and maybe better as predathos won't follow him, he can start again but walk alongside them as equals, helping them grow. But there's also another option in a divine sacrifice in vecna he became a god and he isn't family to the prime so why not throw him at the god eater.
@@shadowhell8378 why doesnt he leave now? Just piss off do his own thing. Does he need predathos to be released to do that?
@@ZodiacBandit no he doesn't if anything that robot Speakeasy from the downfall special would be what his new world would be like and there would be no betrayer gods or other primes to force their own way of thinking on them and no predathos so he can be there forever watching there growth.
Hell have all the gods leave and build there own worlds out there could give us a cool future space version of critical role like starfinder is to pathfinder and they could have a show of them running starfinder that ties in to the critical role we've known for 10 years
There our many guesses in his solutions and not enough logic or reason so in a way yeah he kinda is and I hope that Dorian and Ashton see the big Consequence to his plan
what's the big consequence to his plan? the power vacuum or something else?
@@_Hollowstrix it could lead to the death of their friend or a calamity can happen again.
Oryms argument isnt a good one at all imo. Its a tired and over used stance to take. "Thousands of ants everyday"? First of all, no he doesnt, no one does. You might accidentally step on One ant a day. And i dont know anyone over the age of 4 who goes around jumping on ant hills. AND most kids i know go out of their way to protect little bugs and make little terrariums for them.
Orym just hates ludanis, and thats valid 100%. Ludanis is a piece of shit. But he's also right
i've saying on reddit but i saw 3 things.
1) All of the Arch Heart talk felt like "Ludinus IS RIGHT but wrong in his execution. Everything is going to shit, we're this 🤏🏽 close to a second calamity, so why dont y'all take advantage ludinus's plan and do it first?"
2) Matt keeps coming back to one of the main themes of the campaign: Divinity. BUT the players aint interested in that, thats why they talk about it a bit and then jump to character development inside of the main narrative but without interest in it. This keeps happening because he's trying to make the characters care for the gods and be heroes (he even bestowed titles upon them even tho some of them attacked a temple of the dawnfather).
3)Orym is in conflicted because 2 gods told him diffeerent things and his potential love interest is totally against the gods, but he's also in denial: That line of "i dont have a god"? dude... come on, the wildemother has been with you since ExU, she give youa sword and a vision. Maybe you dont consider yourself a follower but she choose you.
@@hadesblackplays out of all of this the thing I’m most interested in is the relationship with Dorian and Orym they are on polar opposite sides of this conversation it’s crazy
@@ZodiacBandit i just hope in the epilogue of the campaign chetney becomes the demigod of arts & crafts
@@hadesblackplays ah that would be perfect