Having the vet & cat-lady in 'spotlight'-seating while the trainer is given audience-seating speaks volumes about the agenda of this media organisation.
The vet accused e-collar users of being lazy. And yet, by his overgeneralizations and black-and-white thinking and his refusal to follow the logic that was being presented to him, he was being a lazy thinker. He was being a lazy vet.
"It's a potentially abusive item"? Wth? So is a leash! So is a crate! Should we ban those too?! Trying to raise a dog exclusively on positive reinforcement and treats is no different from attempting to raise a child the same way. Does anyone actually think that would work. Lmao!
That's not enough evidence to jump into conclusion that the media organization was biased. And it doesn't really matter where you sit, the important thing is that you have a strong argument.
This “Ve-T” is shockingly rude. The trainer has quite a lot of patience. Hey veT, just because you rudely cut people off, doesn’t make what they are saying hold less validity.
No marc the vet was condescending and RUDE. That is exactly what I thought. Talking over people, shutting them down with his hand gestures and if you actually listen to the meaning of his words there is no real meaning - except his opinion and distortion of the truth.
A grown adult can be passionate without being rude and trying to shut down debate. Debate means hearing all sides. He categorically stated, "There is no argument." That is rude and intolerant.
He's rude and arrogant. His arguments were weak and he knew it because every time he was presented with a reasoned response he just puffed his chest out and claimed cruelty and laziness. He has no idea what goes into training a dog on a collar, he just made ignorant, emotionally charged statements and sweeping allegations. That's not passion, that's arrogance.
Yes! That vet needs to shut up and learn to listen. To me it seems he is cutting the trainer off so that no one gets a chance to learn and get educated. Cant learn anything if someone is always sabotaging it.
What's super clear is that the veterinary behaviorist with the strong opinion has never in his career experienced the stimulation that the e-collar gives. Amazing. Really amazing.
To say “don’t let them off lead,” is misleading. What happens when the neighbors kids let your dog out of the yard and has no good recall? Or the dog is reactive and decides to chase a car? Positive training with treats works but not at distance. It all depends on the dog. Leashes can hurt dogs too, should they be banned?
@@XOriente I agree its misleading. I would even argue that its more cruel to never let your dog off-leash than a e-collar. Dogs are made to run, zoomies around, run like hell with other dogs. Some places don't have appropriate dog parks for this, are you supposed to deny your dogs needs and just "walk them" and never have them run with other dogs? My dog is a husky, she listens extremely well in the house or while on leash. But she is also 1 year old and really needs to play and run with other dogs. Well, unfortunately, I can't let her off leash because she desperately wants to go "explore" by herself. No matter the amount of positive reinforcement (which I do EXCESSIVELY) will get her to recall when she decides to run off to that squirrel, other dogs or even that random person walking (she is very social). So what am I supposed to do? Also, its always someone with a 10 pound mutt that tells you how to "handle" your high energy working dogs lol, always drives me nuts.
@@creativesparks2164 Is lazy your favourite word, because it is totally lazy just to keep repeating that without any proper understanding or explanation. If you knew that trainers work, and if you were not so lazy you could find plenty of examples of it, you would know that for some dogs he may not use an e-collar and he is a very good trainer. The vet on the other hand might know how to put a dog to sleep because it has bad behaviour but being a vet does not mean he knows anything about training dogs.
Vet qualified in animal physical health, vs trainer qualified in how to train a dog. I don't go to a trainer when my dog is sick, why would I go to a vet to train him
Gotta love a cat person, a great dane owner, and a vet giving advice on dog training/behaviour. As if they have any idea what is needed to control a high drive GSD, Malinois, Rotti etc. Give me a break.
I have a high drive shepherd mix, and I couldn’t let her play outside because she would scale a six foot fence, couldn’t take her for a walk because she would HURT me with all the leash pulling, couldn’t train her with positivity alone because she didn’t care about treats or praise in the moment. The collar, a high quality collar, gave her boundaries she respects, and now she can play outside all she wants, go for walks, and accept treats when she does the right thing (because she’ll take them now), and now even be out of her crate and mingling with my cats. She’s a lot less anxious, and much happier. My other dog has always been able to do those things because he responds well to regular training methods and is highly sensitive to my approval. I don’t let him off leash outside a fence, though, because he couldn’t care less about treats or approval when his interest is piqued outside. They’re very different dogs and respond to things very differently. If we ban things like remote collars and prong collars, we are putting a LOT of dogs to death because owners cannot provide a big enough incentive for high drive or anxious dogs to behave with distractions (and we cannot avoid distractions).
Agree with Travis and Sara. I've got an extremely high energy and prey drive wolfhound. Our Zeke is the least laid back wolfhound in the world, more like a Malinois in personality than a typical wolfhound. Zeke, who before the E collar was an escape artist, would be dead without the E collar. We read a lot about how to train with the E collar before we got it, and it took two weeks before it sank into Zeke's hard head that he couldn't get away from the E collar. Zeke is no longer constantly trying to barge out of the house or the car door. We can take him on hikes and evening walks off lead without him running after deer or bears, or just disappearing into the woods. The E collar, used correctly, is a life saver for tough to train dogs!
I had a client spend everyday training her dog intensely. She was AKC certified and all that. She hated e-collars until one day something startled the dog and the leash collar broke. The dog darted into the street and was hit by a car, she spent over 3000 dollars on vet bills but luckily it was alright. She sucked it up and got an e collar and training. One day again the dog was startled by a truck and it ran off. She used the e collar (low settings) and the dog quickly came back. We can't control the environment and training alone can only go so far in a loud and distracting world. This is the same argument with guns. tools aren't the problem, ignorance is.
It's not even equivalent to guns. The intention with guns is to rapidly inflict substantial ballistic trauma; that is their literal only purpose. Furthermore there is the fact that an electric collar is not possible to use on a human whom could just take the collar off. A gun has no limits on it's use and only has the intention mentioned above. It's equivalent to cars. The intention with cars is faster transportation which is a noble endeavour - similar to the intention of an electric collar which is to induce the dog to display proper behaviours and to keep the dog safe in an emergency. The thing about both cars and electric collars is that there exists an abuse potential with both of them; cars can be incredibly destructive to property and life, electric collars can be used to abuse and effectively torture dogs, respectively.
@@ryanwalsh1556 >Cars don't damage humans while they drive, where it is a fact that shock collars damage animals even when used properly by trained professional. You're literally on a video where it is very clearly shown to not be a fact. Dogs are way tougher than people are, if it doesn't bother a person it's extremely unlikely it would effect a dog. >They are making it illegal because there are much safer tools that work better on the market... Why do you think everyone with a degree to work with animals hate these tools but trainers love them. Anyone can be a trainer you should get your information from VETS, licensed animal behaviorist and many more that have studied animals. not trainers that need to shock your dog to make them sit. Believe who ever you want to, but I will stay with the proven scientific data. You have provided none of this data. Furthermore the suggestion isn't and has never been immediately start a puppy with an electric collar. It's a tool of last resort when the animal is at risk of hurting people, other pets or itself. Obviously the goal would be to solely use positive reinforcement however for some dogs sometimes due to circumstances as a puppy or previous bad experiences their desire for the positive reinforcement will be overwhelmed by their desire to commit the undesired behaviour. The problem here is that dogs can kill humans. They kill x60-x100 more people per year than sharks do in the United States (easy data). If there ever is a risk to humans due to let's say an aggressive working herding dog getting off the property and attacking children there are two options given the dog has the desire to roam well beyond it's desire to be praised - 1. Euthanize the dog. This is the immediate recommendation of every vet. A dog that is a danger to people shouldn't be allowed to live given the risks associated with it's existence. 2. Use something like an electric collar that increases in severity as the dog gets further from the property. The question is would you rather kill a dog or cause it slight pain a dozen times to get it to correct a dangerous behaviour. No one is suggesting using an electric collar to try and teach your dog to sit and roll-over. It's a tool that should be limited in it's accessibility, however still accessible as it absolutely can be a tremendous last-ditch effort to see progress correcting a dangerous behaviour before the final choice to put the dog down is made. There are no actual numbers I could find on dog deaths caused by trainers however how do you know that it's an electric collar? The negative reinforcement could be anything, the point is an electric collar is accurate, can be applied at distance without appearing to be a result of human intervention and is tremendously consistent compared to almost any other negative stimulus. The only alternatives in a serious case will create an association between humans and fear and pain. Which is entirely antithetical to the goal; which is for the dog to find the negative behaviour to be painful and as such cease to engage in the negative behaviour.
My Dog is young, full of energy and very adventurous, I am so glad that I got a [PetSafe Stay & Play Compact Wireless Dog & Cat Fence] it took two light shocks and now she knows not to go in the road or chase bikers. It is a miracle worker.
This vet is wrong. I literally used an electric collar on my dog yesterday because a 5 ft Eastern Diamondback was sitting in the middle of the dog run sunning in the evening. I did not shock my dog. Simply hit the tone. She immediately froze and looked at me. I gave her a command and she came straight back too me. It is a valuable training tool. The vet is making every pet owner out to be an idiot who will unlock the settings and just zap their dog full tilt in some cruel way. This is just not true. When used properly its a safety device. Saved her from one snake, 2 skunks, and a porcupine so far. I have shocked myself. Its not even pain, it reminds me of the tens machine.
There’s a big difference between maxing out the “shock” setting and zapping your dog when they misbehave and using the beep or vibrate function to gain your dogs attention and improve some commands.
Wow, I'm glad you saw the snake before the dog got to it. That's just one more argument for the use of E collars. You didn't even have to use the shock, just the tone because you trained your dog correctly. Good job
Of course ecollar owners and trainers are unable. This bullshit including prongcollars is banned in civilized countries. If u don't know establish orientation and obedience without pressing a button own barbie dolls.
First off, that’s fantastic! A little buzz > snake bite! Second, was it electric shock or vibration? I’m assuming there’s a difference, correct? (Sincere question)
Positive reinforcement training works great with high prey drive hunting dogs chasing a cripple across a roadway while cars are coming. If that dog doesn't hear you because it's target focused and it's about to get hit by a car... there isn't a treat on this earth that can stop a dog who doesn't hear you. I can nick one of my hunting dogs and have them stop on a dime before getting into danger. Not to mention having them get into snakes, deer, porcupines etc etc.
I think the “never let your dog off it’s lead and you won’t have use an e-collar” is the stupidest thing I ever heard. I know from personal experience that at some point your dog will run my pet dog does it a lot. Also with the the “it’s a system that can cause abuse” flat collars can be abusive!
Right! Additionally, is a dog supposed to stay on a leash even indoors where a child or someone who cannot defend themselves against an untrained/rambunctious dog or puppy? Lol they need to be trained just like little kids to be gentle and, in turn, happier!
Very true, flat collars cause many serious injuries to the larynx and trachea every year due to people using them incorrectly… but there is no move to ban them! The same should be applied to e collars. When someone is murdered, you put the murderer on trial, not the weapon.
"I got the e collar to save my dogs life because he could get hit by a car when he runs off and all I gotta do is push the button to get him to come back" is also the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. If your dog runs off, that button can't save him from getting hit by a car no matter how much you press it. He can just as easily get hit by a car while he's running back home. Probably more likely actually sinse he's so determined to run home so the collar will shut off. And the collar itself is probably distracting them from there surroundings more.
@@lc4life369 I don’t know why you think you’re qualified to criticise the techniques if you lack such a fundamental understanding of how they are used. Imagine if I started reviewing movies without watching them? No one would respect my opinion, and they’d be right in doing so. It’s not about using the e collar for a recall, it’s about creating a negative association with the road. Road = annoying vibration or static shock = negative experience. Going on the road leads to bad things. I need to avoid the road to avoid bad things. Dogs learn this line of logic and have it strengthened through practice: adding distractions like toys, laser pointers, people or animals etc. Eventually your dog will learn that even if they really want to chase that cat, the road will still be an undesirable place to be. If they show restraint, their human is likely to shower them with reinforcement PLUS they don’t have to experience anything negative from the road. It’s a simple and easy choice for the dog, not nearly as convoluted as you seem to think it is. Also, please note that dogs are smart and can pick up on context clues very well. Generally they can tell the difference between running across the road without permission = bad and crossing the road with their human on a walk. I have never had a dog develop anxiety when crossing the road with their owner as a result of the e collar road safety training. If I think a dog is prone to such behaviour, I wouldn’t be using an e collar in the first place. Every dog is different, and just like sculpting, you will need different tools for different projects. You can use a hammer and nail on two pieces of wood, but try it on ceramics and you’ve got a shattered sculpture: glue would have worked much better to connect the pieces. I’m not stupid and I don’t think e collars are for everyone, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a place in certain situations.
@@user-qp4th3ij7z the problem is people don't know how to use them. They just expect it to work. Idk why you think your more qualified. I got this info from a dog trainer who advertises and uses these type of collars. They don't just save your dogs life unless you do the training needed with your dog with the e collar. (As you basically explained yourself) Thanks for the explanation but I still think it's a very ignorant thing to assume that.
I love how the close minded vet would not try the contacts on his hand because he knows it would show that the collar is not abusive. Training collars are tools any training tool can be abusive in an abusive owner’s hands. My dog was fully obedience trained prior to introduction of the e-collar. He gets excited when I put on his e-collar because he knows we are going somewhere fun and that we will play fun games involving treats, toys, play, and attention. We go to classes 1-2 times per week and we train formally along with using everyday life as a training opportunity.
I’ve been a trainer since 1980. A successful professional trainer. I have trained aggressive and reactive dogs and friendly, sweet dogs. There is no better tool in my toolbox than an electronic collar. Everyone talking against them is out of their minds, they are always people who don’t know how to use them, and who have never worked with difficult dogs. Most of the time they’re people that Have never even trained a nice dog to the fullest potential.
I have a very high driven super active uncontrolled hard to train pomapug. Will this work? I do believe anyone who had not dealt with an animal like this has no clue. But those who do are desperate to find a away to train their pet cause I have tried over and over and my dog won't listen. He is currently 6 months and have been trying since he was 3 months.
@@Weallknow-mk1nd You can get in touch with professionals such as Danny Wells and Jamie Penrith (the trainer in the video). I assume you are UK based. They'll guide you properly.
Lee, yep! I've seen first-hand how E collars can be lifesavers for difficult dogs. You could waste a year of daily training on some "untrainable" dogs with no real results, or spend a month training with the E collar and come out with a dog that knows its boundaries and is safe and relaxed off lead, in the back yard, and around other people and dogs.
No amount of positive/treat based reward training worked with my dog, his instinct to chase was far greater than anything I could offer him. I sought the advice of a reputable trainer and within a couple of hours his behaviour was under control. My dog is not fearful or anxious, he is a happy dog who can go off to play but now listens. If it was not for these ecollars he would have been restricted to lead walks forever which to me is far more cruel than using this tool to correct his behaviour.
@@thomvogan3397 Dog parks are for idiots They're full of lazy owners who couldn't care less about their dog's behavior, or can't control their dog. I would say 99% of people at dog parks have no business owning a dog. They should have goldfish Want to make your dog fearful, or get your dog hurt (or yourself)? Take your dog to a dog park People want to let their dogs off leash and go for a walk. E-collars help with that training. They are an incredible tool that can enrich a dog's life
Terrible attitude from someone who calls themself a vet. His job is to protect animals welfare yet will not even let the dog trainer speak let alone listen to what he has to say. E collars are not for lazy people many people spend huge amounts of time and money on trainers yet still have problems. Just because this guy hasn't experienced it doesn't mean others do not.
And the woman who is not a dog owner, who has cats, should have no voice in this argument. Why do we care what you think? You have no idea what we, as dog owners, are dealing with. So why even venture an opinion?
OMG these people and this discussion is absolutely pointless. Even a stick can be abused. The fact is that some dogs have got behaviours that are complex to address and it is not just buying a lead or a treat. The trainer should have been allowed to talk more specifically
That vet was incredibly rude and arrogant. His arguments could be easily picked apart if only he kept his mouth shut long enough to allow others to speak. He called e-collars a lazy owner tools,.... what the hell??? E-collars are a versatile tool that allows clear communication through touch. The host who had an opinion based solely on the emotion he caused by simply saying they were cruel is part of the problem. She has cats and has no idea how ecollars are even used, yet felt educated enough to offer an opinion. How incredibly disturbing. I guess we should now ban doggie daycares since those are for lazy owners who don't have time to exercise their dogs. While we are at it, we should ban head halters, harnesses and gentle leaders since they are for "lazy owners" who haven't taught their dogs to walk on leash. I suppose this vet has no problem desexing dogs for "lazy owners" who can't mind their dogs and prevent them from procreating, despite it now being known to cause behavioural problems in dogs and joint issues in dogs desexed prior to maturity. I'll bet he makes quite a lot of money desexing dogs for people who have been brainwashed into thinking it is necessary.
100% Totally agree with you. "gentle leaders" are the worst in my opinion...head-halter type collars put all the pressure of the dog's body weight on the nose and snout and force them not to pull that way.
Couldnt agree more. People cannot correct their dogs and next thing you know dogs are banned entirely because of potentially dangerous behaviors that get worse over time from no correction.They do not understand whats right and wrong. You cannot be a good friend if you keep crossing boundaries and that includes dogs.
I agree. They are just a way of touching your dog from a distance. It's a communication device mainly used to tidy things up when the dog is at distance. It's not about pain, it's more like tapping on your dog on the shoulder and saying "hey buddy, I'm about to ask you to do something ". I think they are great for dogs that have owners that understand what they and know how to use them properly. As better and more reliable a dog is while off leash the more freedom they tend to get ... I think a lot if people don't understand dog training and immediately think you're violently shocking you're do as a punishment. I get the fact that idiots my get hold of the device but what can you do apart from banning them from owning dogs ? If they are abusing their dog with an E collor, I bet they are abusing it with hands , dog leads, threats , e.t.c. My point is used correctly no problems with e collors. Dog abuse's don't need e collors to abuse dogs they will use just about anything available to cause their dog pain and upset. So I don't think they should be banned for that reason . I saw an asshole lift a poor dog up off the ground by its neck using a conventional collor and lead. Does this mean they should be banned too? No Nothing worse than a dog owner that bashes everything that's not 100% positive but have a dog that they have ruined. Usually see their dog choking itself to death at the end of the leash on walks, never allowed off leash to run and play as it's badly trained/hasn't been taught basic off leash stuff, barks/aggressive , and is usually a complete nutcase. It's criminal. It's dog abuse. Drives me nuts that dog owners like this are still socially acceptable.
you contact a behaviorist, and they drug your dog to oblivion. If you only bought dogs from rescues that PTS the troubled behavioral issue dogs that you wouldn't need to harm a dog. This poor trainer demonstrates his patients far more than the Vet who thinks all a dog needs is patience and treats.
Dog trainer and vet have completely different jobs, I am for training with an ecollar! Positive only sounds lovely but it doesn't work with every dog. I had 8 months training with a positive only trainer and I hardly got any results. Intact my dogs behaviour got worse. I had an aggressive german shepherd and I'm responsible for him so I ecollar trained him through a professional in the end.
@@jesse564 LOL What the hell is this mentality to coddle a big beast as if it's a human infant? No it's not cruel to discipline a dog. This is why some dogs become aggressive an nippy. Because they never get corrected. An Ecollar makes the job more effective since the dog least expects the correction and is forced into submission.
@@jesse564 e collars now, can beep first, vibrate and can use very low level shocks that are unpleasant, not painful. Some people don't even use the shock part, the vibrate is enough.
"If dogs are only bought from breeders or from behaviorally assessed rescues"...I guess what he's saying there, is my sketchy dog Leila should have been killed in the shelter, instead of adopted out to someone who was willing to work with her. Ban the use of aversive tools that can absolutely save dog's lives. That's the message we hear from R+ people who are like religious zealots. And who would rather see dogs die, than see the training that can rehabilitate them utilized. That's it. All I will say on this point. You (who adopt this rationale) are insane.
Ok but there are other options like vibration collars and ones that use sound to correct there are some amazing muzzles check out the muzzle up project if you get the correct type you can muzzle train and many high prey drive pups or aggression dogs can be saved by muzzle training as long as you educate yourself on how to fit it correctly, so they are able to pant drink and take a treat make it a positive thing and you are protecting them as well until they can learn to be without it check out a trainer Steffens Baldwin on Instagram he SAVES THOUSANDS OF THE WORST CASES where dogs were to be euthanized he rehabs them without shock collars he saves so many dogs
I have this collar and was taught by an extremely experienced dog trainer on how to use it, of which he took a solid 3 weeks before introducing the collar at a level 1-2 (it goes to 8). She never needed past a 2. I couldn't feel the two on my neck. This collar has saved her life. Just as the trainer said, it is not cruelty--it prevents cruelty. All of these collars are not the same. This is NOT a shock.
You’re right. Not all collars shock. The one I had did. I put it on my neck and barked 😂 It definitely was an electric shock! Felt like shocking your hand on something metal on a dry day. Or like taking certain fabrics out of the dryer. Using on an 8 would be quite painful.
@@rebeccasainz2715 your talking about a bark collar. That's not the same as whet they are talking about. Completely different in every way. Can you get to that level with them? Yes. But the lower levels of a quality e-collar is no stronger than a tens device given to you by your doctor for back pain or something like that. The working level for the vast majority of dogs can't be felt by most humans.
I used to be anti collars. To be honest, I was anti them because they sounded scary and I had a knee-jerk response as an animal lover. I have since used one (with a trainer) and it has given my dog a level of freedom and safety that I never thought he would have. He is a rescue with a high prey drive and a lot of strength, but he can now go off lead on the moors and he is delighted! He isn't confused by the collar because it is used as part of a coherent training approach. Our relationship isn't harmed; it's better because he knows what is expected and can regulate his behavior. I had spent literally hundreds of hours on positive-only approaches (and yes, trainers, books and "gentle" headcollars). I am not lazy, and I am not incompetent, and I appreciate that if you've had a dog respond well to positive-only, it's easy to disregard this. But please look at the actual data, and listen to the people whose animals would otherwise spend their life on a lead/risk being shot. People who want to abuse an animal will do so, and they won't spend £300 on a collar and trainer first, so why don't we regulate?
I am sure yours is not an isolated story. The vet kept saying use positive reinforcement but didn''t say what to do if it doesn't work. He said go to a professional trainer - some do use e-collars as your story shows.
I'm the same! There is so much misinformation out there about them! Yes there are people who use them improperly, but if they didn't have the collar they'd probably be abusing the dog in some other way. Its the people that are the problem! Anyway I used to think they gave some huge shock and that they were super cruel and only for stopping vicious dogs. Then I adopted 2 dogs that are technically bred for hunting (weimaraners) and they have such a strong prey drive and sense of smell that I literally cannot get them to pay attention when we are outside. Its completely unrealistic to think I'm going to spend months with them on long leads every time they go into the backyard to go to the bathroom, getting all tangled up and frustrated with that, or have me chase them or play chase games just to try to get them to actually come back to me (which also doesn't work when they are locked onto a scent). I'm actually looking into purchasing an e-collar now. I have spent hundreds on training, long leads, tasty treats, and have spent countless hours playing recall games with the dogs indoors and outdoors, but once they get together outside or lock onto a scent, its like I don't exist, even if I were dangling a roast chicken from my hand. It isn't cruel to use a device that delivers a mild sensation that breaks them out of their fixation on whatever it is that they are following and puts their focus back on the alpha (YOU!). I thought shock collars really hurt them and never realized that dogs are trained using a very mild sensation. I think people equate them to tasers or something and they are not!
@@crystalvanantwerpen235 a whistle would also work and is just as easy to train a dog with too. People equate them to tazers because sadly they are the go to for many owners who are just looking for a quick fix as opposed to getting down to the root of the problem. I had a dog who chased pretty much anything that moved and i had no training aids whatsoever...i taught him what was ok to chase by giving him a release command on a ball or other toy but would say leave it or stay if it was a person or other animal. It took a bit but eventually he learned chasing balls was more fun than chasing animals. Always reward when they come back since they may associate scolding with coming back and it will be harder to get them to come in the future. The key is to make yourself more valuable than what they are chasing and finguring out their reward currency...your dogs love to chase things so give them something appropriate to play with when they get the command right.
E collars are a tool that CAN be abused. Just like a gun, or a ball bat. Put in the hands of irresponsible people can be toxic. My Shepard wears an e collar & it’s been the best tool to use when training him. We still Interact w/ him & give him patience & “him room” to be be good & obedient. The e collar is a tool, it doesn’t take place of the owners responsibility towards their dog.
At the end of the video: Basically the vet thinks that if dogs are bought off responsible breeders than there is no need for shock collars. What the F... has this to do with dog development of a behaviour issue? These are often due to the context they live in and the relationship with the owner and the household; and the experiences they will do together. This is the most pathetic attempt to link 2 unrelated things together.
I adopted a full grown rottweiler with absolutely no training. Under the guidance if a professional trainer, used a remote collar. I was able to stop her from dragging me down the street and eat my cat. Not once did my dog ever get hurt or have adverse effect. Shes is a beautiful well behaved and HAPPY dog now.
Tachibana the service dog I use a prong collar on my golden retriever. Sorry but I’d rather have a well mannered assistance dog (he’s my AD) than a dog that pulls on the lead and possibly puts me at risk.
some dogs just cant be trained the normal ways. my dog will not even CARE if i had a scotch fillet steak in my hand. he will not pay it any attention. he is driven to get what he wants. a little tingle and he will pay attention. It's also unfair to call us lazy. I've spent THOUSANDS of dollars training my dog. I've done everything under the sun, I've spent hours day in day out trying all the methods - these were the only methods that worked.
“Positive reward based training can be used to train a dog” Or “keep the dog on a lead”.These are the two solutions that are repeatedly churned out by people like this ignorant vet who say electric collars are cruel.Firstly if they had put a chocolate biscuit in front of the vet whilst he was in his ‘defence fight drive’, would he have taken it? I suspect not because he was so high in defence fight drive that all he wanted to do was verbally attack the trainer! Well matey, it’s no different with a dog! If you work with dogs in a high Prey drive or defence drive whose instinct is to chase or attack, you can train them with food (if they’re food driven) but there is no food in the world that works to interrupt an animal instinct when they’re on a scent or want to attack. Just like you wouldn’t let the trainer speak, you wouldn’t listen to verbal commands or I suspect have been interested in a chocolate biscuit!So, why don’t you come and speak to the hundreds of dog owners I’ve seen over 10 years rehabilitating dogs with behaviour issues. Let them tell you what they tell me “we’ve seen a few trainers and all they do is tell you to distract our dog with food. They’re not interested in the food, it doesn’t work when they want to get to that dog/person or chase after something!”.So Mr Vet, stick to what you were trained in -veterinary medicine, although with your aggressive energy I wouldn’t want you around any dog of mine or that I work with.
Totally agree! When either of my hunting dogs are on a mission or on a chase, there is no amount of food and praise that gets them to stop, and I can't run fast enough to grab them. They can't be on leashes forever. People fail to realize that some small corrections in the beginning afford the dog so much more freedom in life once they know what is expected of them. For example... lets say my 2 dogs never properly learn to recall when off leash because of their prey drive. Ok that means they can't go hunt, they can't go run around the fields, they have to stay tethered to me. For a couple of dogs that LOVE and NEED to run, this is cruel and unfair that they should stay confined to a fence or lead their whole lives. Now lets say these same two dogs are worked with with e-collars using humane and professional methods to produce a reliable recall. Now these dogs get to spend their days hunting, running, and enjoying vast amounts of freedom because they have learned what they can and cannot do, or at bare minimum I can at least get their attention if their instincts should kick in at an inappropriate time. There's a lot of people out there without a lot of knowledge or experience who feel the need to impose judgement and control others based on their own ignorance. Screw em.
Crystal VanAntwerpen if you can’t recall your dog without a ecollar it’s not a hunting dog, so I’m gonna take everything you say with a grain of salt lol. The vet got his points across terribly. I was a user of the e collar, but I stopped because of how it makes me look. It does make you look lazy.. Because the majority of people that use them are lazy, especially when it comes to training their dog. Have you seen how folks use those things? If you go to any of your local dog parks there’s always some asshole who is constantly shocking his dog. Y’all folks that use ecollars as your only way to get your dog to listen to you it’s just sad in my opinion.
@@MikeHawkbaby its not the only way. I just have it on my dog as an option. I only ever use it if i have tried everything else and shes not coming back. Then i tap the low stim and she comes right back to my side
Kiana Olivia I’m not talking about you mam lol I’m talking about people who use their e collars as literally their only option. If you only use it in situations when it is necessary and you keep the ecollar at a vibration/a very low level you’re doing it right and I have nothing against you.
I've trained with Jaime, so biased yes! But was I pro collars 3 years ago? No. Most of us arrive here after eventually having owned previous dogs that were 'easy' or compliant to reward or positive based training. A breeze :) However, we later found ourselves even after working with professional trainers, still getting nowhere, and instead having a dog that was either a danger to themselves, or others! Fortunately with correct, appropriate, welfare minded training and a high quality collar I now have a happy, well behaved dog that I can take anywhere! I was not and am not lazy! In fact the opposite! My dog is full of joy and loving life! Collars, used correctly under the right circumstances with the right support and training are liberating for dog and owner. The vast majority of us would welcome and are in fact campaigning for the necessary changes, such as 'kite' marking to insure only safe, quality collars are available, legislation to insure only qualified, welfare minded trainers are permitted to train us, and a form of licensing required for owners of collars so that they can be monitored. I LOVE DOGS! Please don't just say they are cruel, and we are lazy unless you are prepared to back it up with indisputable facts and experience. Thank you.....
@@Salem-jk3th Not sure i you found this already as it has been 3 months but the trainer is Jamie Penrith. This is the link to his youtube channel ua-cam.com/users/taketheleadvideo
So true, during my lifetime I've had 7 beautiful Shelties. All different personalities, but all I trained so easily. I've taken many obedience courses and taught dog agility, but Number 8 broke me. He is extremely high-drive, high-energy, leash-aggressive and his barking is nuts. When he gets in one of his barking "fits" he completely tunes out. I've tried every type of collar, harness, positive enforcement, treats, etc. I finally have him walking (not pulling) on the lead but he still freaks out at trucks, squirrels, other dogs and even birds and planes. People don't know how helpless, desperate and embarrassed you feel with a dog like mine. I'm hoping an e-collar will help.
Also, does this vet realize that people can literally beat their dogs with their bare hands too? Giving them a tiny bit of stimulation to reinforce a command is not abuse. I bet he's never owned a hunting dog lol.
I adopted a dog that was abandoned as a puppy; THEN adopted by an abusive owner who apparently gave her absolutely no training as a young adult. Her recall was zero and her prey drive is insane. (Husky/GSD mix). The consequence of a tone/vibration/mild shock to me is far better than the consequence of her darting across the road to chase a crow and being mowed down by a car, or fear biting someone and having to be put down...
High drive dogs and dogs that show aggression to livestock/other dogs etc NEED them. Sometimes a piece of cheese or meat is not enough to tempt some dogs to change their behaviour.
All dogs are trained with love,praise,rewards,etc.( I would hope!)whatever the case may be.Then your dog blows you off when its prey drive kicks in ..and no amount of "positive"reward,treat training is gonna stop it from doing something that it finds genetically more rewarding (it was bred to do).
I'd only take issue with the idea that it needs to be bred to find some things more tempting than food and praise. All dogs are domesticated wolves,only those breeds that have been completely changed and had their instincts to hunt,protect and gain rank all but eliminated are the exception imo.
Exactly you cant "high value reward" a dog when a higher value reward is the chase...seen a apprehension dog that the best thing in the world to him was to bite. a piece of sausage isnt going to get that dog to out...and that dog had game to the point you could pretty much drown him and hed still hang on
@@giovannifassone2377 not many people understand this. They just say people use the collar because they are too lazy to train their dog. Even a very well trained dog has their moments. Id prefer a moment of discomfort for my dog over their death any day
The vet is an absolute nob Ed, and to have a cat lady on board, Christ on a bike 🙄 I have a Vizsla, she is a working hunting dog. Her hunting drive is crazy, as a pup she would run at cattle and horses, not all of the time just sometimes. If she gets kicked she could end up getting seriously injured or even worse than that. I decided to use an e collar, this was used on the lowest of settings that she would let me know, more of a sensation than being shocked to pieces, people don’t understand the collars. It was used for a few months until she knew the score and is no longer needed. No way would I of been able to train her without it. A fantastic tool and now I have an even better hunting partner 👌🏻
It was rather telling that, despite Abraham being passed the E Collar to experience the sensation of the Stim, he vacillated so effectively that James never got around to demonstrating it to him. I suspect that the thought of doing so put him in a great quandary: to experience it at the same level and admit that it felt like no more than a tingle would have destroyed his "cruelty" argument (and god knows, it was the only one he had; he used the word enough), and it would have caused significant Cognitive Dissonance. One can only deduce from this that Mr Abraham was either being disingenuous, or that he has an agenda (or no integrity). Or all three. High quality (E Collar Technologies or Dogtra) E Collars are excellent tools that help save lives and give dogs freedom, when used properly. Tools are not cruel. People are cruel. In recent months, vans have been used as weapons and driven into crowds of people with the express intention of causing pain, distress and fear. Vans are *also* used to transport goods we use in our daily lives - including much-needed blood and organs for emergency transfusions and transplants. Should we therefore ban vans anyway - because a tiny handful of people misuse them?
I bought my dog from one of the top breeder in the nation and the trainer that recommends and has trained 100s of his dogs uses e-collars and everyone I’ve talked to that used that trainer loved the results. I am trying my hardest to train mine and I had to buy a prong collar just to walk him. He pulled and almost choked himself to death and nothing I tried could break his drive to pull. 5 minutes in the prong and he was walking beside me no problem. You have to use what works for your dog and their behavior but you have to accept when you need help and it’s the owners responsibility to make sure the tools are used properly and that the trainer uses them properly!
Horrible. U obviously understand nothing about dogs. That's the problem. U mess up your Willtoplease Doggy with abusive tools. Learn basics about dogs that you lack
man on panel says it is a potentially abusive item - doesn't go on to say it should be banned. Many things used in dog training are potentially abusive - the RSPCA has brought many prosecutions for abuse using other items but never an e-collar.
The vet appears to have no manners and seems to have a very rigid opinion, I find that disturbing given that they are discussing potentially saving dogs lives....
This guy doesn’t know what he is taking about. I use an E-collar and I stand by it. Mine runs at 5 to 10 out of 100 and at that level you can hold it against your neck or face and sit on the button. My dog gets excited when I bring out the e-collar. It is used to communicate not to punish. I did go to a trainer so I knew what I was doing but you could easily go on UA-cam to learn.
This is exactly why Veterinarians seek help from Dog Trainers when they have misbehaving dogs. I don't give out medical advice to my clients for pets...stick to what you know, Doc.
People can be abusive, not the tools! We need to remember that before we will ban e-collars. Some legislation around them yes- license for a trainer, accredited e-collars etc. Education over ban- let's not take away sometimes maybe the last chance for a dog to run freely. I do use sometimes e collars in my training ( Mini Educator), I do work in front of my customers- nobody would pay me for hurting their dog, moreover, it was never and won't my intention to hurt any dog. I've spent life-saving them form abuse, finding a home for stray dogs in Polish equivalent of RSPCA as a Field Inspector. There is no better feeling than dog happily coming to you when called- and you can achieve this with e-collar if conditioned properly, used accordingly to the situation, humanly and with an aim to have a happy, reliable dog! You can do this without e-collar in a majority of cases, of course, but there some dogs that won't respond to your affection and ham over self-rewarding chasing a deer in a forest. And only one more thing I would like to add- I do use Postive reinforcement a lot, in my opinion, is the most powerful "tool", for some dogs in conjunction with high-quality e-collar.
It is not an area of veterinary expertise. They have no training in behaviour or nutrition. If your dog is sick take it to a vet. Outside of that they're useless.
@@jmas1219 As a trainer for 12 years who's mostly worked with abused and rescue dogs, I've never needed an electric or shock collar for a dog. I can understand using them for a short time during a transitional period when you've no other choice, but if you know what you're doing as a trainer, you and your client will find they're unnecessary.
Maria B No dog needs a SHOCK collar that lazy A vibration is fine. Shut up and mind your own business it’s clear you don’t if you don’t know that stupid
Maria B Wow you’re obviously uneducated you think police dogs are the most trained dogs 😂 you’re absolutely stupid why are you speaking on something you have no idea about... Learn how to read if you knew about dogs you’d know you just can’t put a shock collar on every dog and shock them when they do something you don’t like... they need human interaction, commands, and sounds.... read a book You’re just mad cause that’s your only resort of dog training and I’m threatening it. In the right hands of professionals knowing how to actually use a VIBRATION COLLAR as a tap to get dogs attention is fine. But for the majority of people that use SHOCK collars like you just put it on their dogs and use it to stop them from doing EVERYTHING because they are too lazy to train the behavior out of them
The vet doesn’t metion or talk about rescue dogs. Some of these have been truamatized beyond belief, have never been socialized, are aggressive, bite other dogs and people, etc…the list goes on. I have paid thousands over the years for professioanl training for these dogs, some have not responded to their help and training techniques. I finally purchased a “shock” collar (used on one of the lowest settings), was trained on how to use it. These collars have been life changing. I was told over again to have these dogs put down, they couldn’t be fixed. Wrong! Can’t say enough about them, as long as they are used correctly and responsibly!
Nobody will ever understand E-collars until they have used them. It is an amazing tool if USED CORRECTLY. My dogs love training and love the fact that hey are off leash and totally in control. Tails are wagging and very happy. People that are against E-collars have never taken the time to study them nor have interest in them, they just assume that owners are shocking dogs and hurting them. Very uninformed and clueless as to the benefits of having one. All i know is that i will always train any dog i own with one. I have had dogs trained without and there is no comparison at all, and yes I know how to train dogs. This is an argument that will not be solved until people do some research and not just go by what they hear from only pro positive trainers.
@@saarlooswolfhund6237 Like i said, once you see how your dog is when using one, you will then understand. The freedom a dog gets being off leash in total control is something many owners have never experienced. If you tell me that a dog off leash wagging his tail enjoying his freedom is a dog that is abused, we are living in different worlds my friend. Careful not to let your dog off leash, he may bolt into traffic or run after a cat or kid. Do some research and learn something new for once, your dog will love you for it.
When used correctly, e-collars take training to a new level. Just like a leash can be used to communicate with your dog, so can an e-collar. What makes an e-collar so great is that you don’t have to be physically connected to your dog like you are with a leash. That allows dogs to, once properly trained, go off leash and run around more while still being able to receive communication from the owner. I think most people who are against e-collars would be very surprised how low of a level of stimulation is needed.
@SaarloosWolfhund Hello. I am a student of the only nationally accredited dog behaviour certificate in Australia. It is a year long course that involves several practical and theoretical assessments along with hours of supervised training, and lectures on canine first aid, diet, anatomy and psychology. Every professional I have come across in this course is aware of the fact that e collars are a scientifically valid application of operant conditioning. They work. Not all of these people use them themselves or would advocate on their behalf (some would, some wouldn’t), but they don’t act as though they are abusive or unnecessary either. I would compare it to professional chefs-some really like working with seafood alone, but that doesn’t mean they think chefs that cook beef or vegetables are evil and misguided. It’s a matter of preference in methodology that is respected among professionals. Now, on the topic of respect and professionalism, your comment isn’t looking so good… I am not going to pretend I am an exceptionally experienced and knowledgeable dog trainer. But I am currently studying under maybe 6 or 7 knowledgeable and experienced unaffiliated canine professionals, and as you seem to disagree with them for a reason you haven’t made clear, I suggest maybe it is you that needs to do some research, and “learn the basics about dogs that you lack”.
Can I just say the exact arguments everyone is using in the comments for these devices being used is what arguments are now being used to shock disabled kids at the judge Rosenberg facility.
@@hollybock8463 I highly recommend that, if you ever get the opportunity, put an e-collar on yourself so that you can understand what the lower levels feel like. You can put it on your hand, forearm, neck, wherever. Of course, if you crank it up it’s not going to hurt but low levels don’t hurt at all. It’s a sensation, not a shock. And I understand that probably sounds like I’m playing semantics but it’s true. I would never do anything to hurt my dog and make sure to try it on myself first. I use the mini educator and I can’t feel anything until about a 5. The lowest that she can feel it is at a 4 which is the level she works at inside the house and outside is a 5 and sometimes a 6 if there’s a lot of distraction but I would never go higher than that unless it was a life or death situation. I know there are people who use it higher than that and I don’t agree with causing dogs any kind of pain. But, at the levels I use, it’s the equivalent of a tap on the shoulder up to a medium strength flick. My dog is pretty sensitive in general so it would be very easy to tell if it was affecting her negatively. Yet, every time she sees it come out she gets happy and excited because she pairs it with having fun. I really hope you’re able to try one on yourself one day.
For those who haven't needed to use an e-collar, good for you (genuinely). But for some who have high-drive dogs, positive reinforcement cannot compete with the motivation of chasing livestock. E-collars are the most humane way to address this problem, if used correctly. Like any tool (including a leash) it can be abused. Banning the tool does nothing to stop abuse, and will limit options for those trying to help their dogs and prevent livestock killing and dogs being shot.
If you have a high prey drive dog, then you likely need to make them outdoor dogs. The reality is high prey drive dogs aren't great indoor pets. Why use an e collar when you can fence your dogs in?
@@caz6277 There are low energy dogs in all breeds. You can find a low energy german shepard and a low energy pitbull (I have one). The issue is people do not want to take the time out to vet the dog they choose. If you go to a shelter, find the dog that: (1) isn't barking, (2) isn't running up to see you, (3) will not act aggressive when you choose to approach them. That dog is likely not high energy. People go to a shelter/breeder and always chooses the dog that jumps on them and gives them a bunch of licks. That dog is high energy and now you have a handful. I walk my pitbull 20 to 30 minutes 3 times a day and we longer excursions on the weekend. Does he spend a lot of time sleeping otherwise? Yes. Would I say he has a miserable life? No. He is low energy and doesn't particular want to run around and play all the time.
@@caz6277 I think people focus on positive training, when the real focus is "no force" training (i.e. don't make the dog do things). No force training doesn't preclude, making a dog wait to go outside/ not walking when dog is acting wild etc. I only train my dog through treats and he is fear reactive to people, how did it work training him in a matter of months? Well, it was mainly consistency. I feel regardless of which approach you take, if you cannot be consistent to the point that the dog knows EVERYTIME you say x, y will happen, you aren't going to see results. This includes: 1. taking the dog out at the same time everyday, 2. feeding the dog at the same time everyday, 3. going to sleep at the same time everyday, 4. creating rituals for your problems (i.e. we never let him meet people at the door, we always make him wait, present the people to him with a game, then he can choose to ignore them or interact). Again you have to be consistent. Is it alot of work? Yep, that's why honestly, most people are better off not having dogs.
Totally agree. We have had dogs for over 40 years and always successfully managed their behaviour - until 2 years ago when I got a working cocker spaniel. Very different challenge! She is the first time I have ever felt the need to go to a trainer. She is a fearsome hunter. The best thing that has happened for her welfare is that the trainer has educated me in the use of an e collar. The dog is not yet a finished product but we are well on the way to her being able to live her best life without being a threat to livestock or a danger to herself.
If I was that dog trainer I would have pressed the button on the e-collar as soon as he had it in his hand, because everyone would see that the trainer pressed it and the vet didn't get hurt. Also, can we talk about the fact that this vet is saying that because someone could misuse the tool that it should be banned yet he isn't talking about how there are countless dogs out there walking around with huge scars wrapping around their neck from someone using a flat collar wrong. With his logic we should be banning anything that could cause harm, which by the way is everything, you could beat a dog with a broom but that doesn't mean we should ban brooms. The tool itself isn't abusive it's the hands behind it.
That vet is very ignorant. I know of many dogs saved by ecollars. Their next step was to be put down or taken to the pound to be killed and the ecollar saved them by proper training not shock therapy Fool! There are three modes on ecollars. Beep, vibrate and shock. I never had to go to shock my dog responded to beeps and vibrate only. It's a great tool when a dog is out of control.
Why is it they stack the odds in their favor. More anti remote collar people and only one for the collar. Well done James for maintaining and even composure with those who really know nothing about this tool. What exactly does this vet have to base his findings on? Most of the time its just from the same BS they have read in the inner circle of those opposed to this tool. Why not let the trainer really work a dog right in front of the panel? I'll tell you why. They are afraid of what they will see. A happy dog being trained on a remote collar the right way. I have invited many positive trainers to come watch me and they alwasy deny. Well I'll be in the UK in June and I personally invite anyone on the anti remote collar panel to come and watch me work dogs on remote collars. Sadly I highly doubt they will accept my offer.
Why is a vet giving training advice? I've had experience with this subject as i have rehabilitated a few dogs from pretty shaky pasts. One of the last dogs i adopted (a malinois) had lots of aggression towards a variety of triggers when he came in due to lack of socialization as a young dog (he was 3 to 4YO when he arrived). These weren't fight or flight issues, these were real aggression barriers, to the point that two "positive only" trainers i was working with told me they were unable to defuse his instincts. I spent 18 months trying several different protocols to rehab this dog on.my own and managed to ease some of his triggers, but far from a good standard. I finally gave in and approached a trainer that worked with e-collar. He was able to control the dog in red-level situations within 5 freaking mins. The dog is now heading towards full rehabilitation across the board. That is the power of the e-collar in the right hands, it basically saved this dog from the likelihood of being put down.
The vet was really quite rude and dismissive. It’s a worry to have a vet so closed minded to a tool that has the potential to help many dogs. It’s the person holding the tool that can be cruel not the tool itself. Abuse and cruelty can be administered to an animal with anything, wether it’s a stick, a lead, a halti, or a hammer. Yes I agree regulation is required so people don’t use inferior tools or tools incorrectly but not banning. As for saying if Lucy’s law goes through we won’t have the need for such devices as they will be properly socialized really shows someone who has no real idea. I support Lucy’s Law, but having just registered breeders will not eliminate a dogs natural prey drives or behaviours no matter how well socialized. Puppies often bought at 8 weeks old will have had limited socialization anyway, and still require bringing on in their training and socialization. They don’t just come away with a piece of paper meaning they won’t have behavioural issues and to say otherwise seemed either incredibly naive or stupid. The trainer was incredibly patient and made a balanced informative and sensible discussion. Brilliant job. And matthew Wright was very fair and handled the debate well.
The bad press this tool gets is truly astounding. Remote training collars have huge potential to help owners communicate with their dogs so that they can be given more off leash freedom while at the same time being kept safe. It is seriously sad that a few individuals are so convinced everyone only wants to use them to inflict pain and suffering that they are determined to have them banned, no matter what. That attitude says more about them than it does about anything else. As James said, if someone wants to abuse a dog, they don't have to spend money on an expensive eCollar to do so.
The bad press is not surprising. The Dogs Trust, The Kennel Club, Blue Cross and other big organistions that take the publics money have been using it to fund untruthful and misleading campaigns that talk about electronic remote training collars as barbaric torture devices, and designed to work by causing pain so that the dog acts to avoid pain, which is all untrue, but what does it lead the public, most of whom have never seen an e-collar in use, to believe?On the other hand, the people who use them and know what they can do to benefit dogs and owners are a minority getting on with their own lives and training dogs humanely and efficiently so that they can happily and safely play off lead. These people are not campaigning to stop other people training dogs any other way, nor have they been organized to educate the public in the face of misinformation provided by these big charitable organisations with their well paid executives.We heard from one phone caller who had used the collars, presumably successfully who indicated that the dogs showed no sign of being hurt, and one caller who felt she had successfully trained her dog without an e-collar but so what? What did she know of e-collars? It would be interesting to take that dog and see how it behaved in a field of sheep.
Ecollars saved my dog's life. My dog is people reactive. She was quarantined at animal control because they said she was too aggressive. The only way she would be released is through a rescue only. A rescue ended up picking her up and I adopted her from them. I worked with a bunch of "positive only " trainers and none of them could manager her aggressive reactivity. Ultimately, I knew that if I couldn't find a solution, she would hurt someone or I would be liable for a bite. I worked with an ecollar trainer and my relationship with my dog dramatically changed for the better. I worked with a trainer who follows Larry Krohn's philosophy. He uses ecollars, but he uses them humanely and that is the key. For people who do not know, unlike in the United States, in the UK they kill many homeless dogs. If the dog isn't "behaviorally fit" or if it's one of the so-called "banned breeds" they have a zero tolerance euthanasia law. No questions asked. I'm happy I don't live under that sort of law here in the U.S. Because if I did, my dog would for certain be dead. Right now, my dog is completely under my control with the use of a LOW stimulation ecollar.
The main issue is that most owners use these collars as the a doggie off button. "My dog is digging in the garden... ZAP! , My dog is sniffing people too intensely....ZAP!" Instead of just bothering to take 10 minutes out of the day and train their dog's. I get not many people have the time to do that but then again maybe a dog is not the right pet for those people.
I have an e-collar for my golden retriever and all I have to do is press the button that makes it beep with her and call her and she immediately comes. Just because you have one of these collars doesn’t mean you have to shock the dog. The collar I have has noise (beep), vibrate, and shock settings, but I only use the noise or vibrate with her (all the vibrate does is make the receiver shake)
These collars are for training, not for being on your dog’s neck all the time. In fact the dog shouldn’t have any collar on at home, especially E-collar because you’re too lazy to call him properly.
The people against E-Collars should take care of a untrained Belgian Malinois. Maybe that would change their minds. Also buying cheap collars is dangerous. More expensive ones, like Dogtra, on the other hand work really well.
I’ve heard of so many people who’ve had dogs with behavioral issues, who sought and went to several different positive only trainers. In most of the extremely difficult cases, those positive only trainers end up giving up and suggesting euthanasia. These same individuals then go to a dog trainer that uses positive as well as aversive methods, and they get wonderful results and are able to resolve the behavioral problem, instead of resorting to euthanasia. So who’s truly lazy between the different trainers (I personally think it’s the ones giving up and suggesting euthanasia just because their personal beliefs and methods aren’t yielding the desired results...)
My dog would have been euthanized. He is stubborn and had been abused, and we tried EVERYTHING before we tried a shock collar. He was uncontrollable. I am smiling as I say this, but he's really a terrible dog and we love him anyway. We keep him because he's good with our grandkids, and I think anyone else would euthanize him.
As a long time owner of a dog training business I've never known a vet who knew anything about dog training. After watching the video I still don't. And why would anyone ask a cat owner about what tools are appropriate for dog training! How would she know! People who are adamantly opposed to e-collars form their opinions based strictly on feelings, not reality. Sadly, they usually aren't open-minded enough to even consider another point of view.
Great job that Trainer! And how naive and rude was that vet! I have worked in dog training and behaviour for over 40 years and I Specialise in aggressive and reactive dogs - so have a wealth of experience with 'challenging dogs'. I DON'T generally use Ecollars in my work, but, if, and it has happened occasionally, I encounter a dog that does not respond to my methods then I would certainly recommend trying an ecollar under the guidance of an EXPERIENCED ecollar trainer. My experience dictates that for most dogs, alternative methods will work effectively. But for some, an ecollar is a more ideal solution. For live stock chasers for instance, where no other alternative solution is available, or viable, then I think an ecollar is perhaps the ONLY safe permanent solution (under the guidance of an experienced ecollar trainer), which will keep both stock and dog safe. I don't think ecollars should be on sale to the general public as there is too much room for error and/or accidental or deliberate abuse, but I DO think that ecollars should be available via an experienced dog trainer and that they should be able to supply such tools to dog owners. Once professional training has taken place. As for the vet in this interview, well, if a vet doesn't understand the symptoms of pain in a dog, then something is very wrong, with that vets experience in my view. And if a vet or anyone else has to resort to speaking OVER someone else then something is very wrong with his manners. He would not be a vet that I would take my dog to if he is incapable of listening. Overall, I respect this trainer for both his conduct ad knowledge WAY more than that vet, that is for sure. This trainer is right, I see people everyday who are at their wits end with their dogs behaviour. Dedicated, loving, committed owners, who have tried and failed and need a different kind of help. ALL dogs respond differently to training and to their owners and having a variety of tools and approaches available, is CRUCIAL to helping ALL dogs.
Incredible how clueless this vet and so many vets are really. I have an amstaff/pit we tried every type of positive reinforcement possible, I was not lazy, I was to the point where he was so reactive towards people, kids, other dogs I thought I was going to have to get rid of him. I had in my head becuase of the rescue that we used that ecollars and pinch collars were an awful thing but we went to a trainer and in 1 day I kid you not this dog completely changed. All he needed was to feel like he wasn't in control and that we as owners were. The ecollar and pinck collar saved my dogs life.
They should really rename them "alpha collars" bc when you use one immediately you are the alpha dog. I recommend them all the time but so many owners are hopeless idiots that would rather complain
No one can train an animal to come back to their handler 100% of the time especially if the dog is at a distance and is focused on something else. Here’s an analogy that you might understand. A deaf person is about to cross the street so you yell stop there’s a car coming. Of course he can’t hear you so he will continue to cross. But if you were next to him and tapped them with your finger on his shoulder he would stop and turn around and look. This is exactly what I trained my dog to understand. When a dog is focused on something he wants he is completely deaf to anything else around him. If he’s off leash and sees a rabbit or a squirrel and takes off for it he needs to know that I’m watching. The amount of stimulation I use is a kin to an itch. But that itch is enough to make him break his concentration for the squirrel and turn to look for me. Hunters use it all the time to get their dogs to come back to them even at distances of a mile. Maybe instead of banning them out right they should give them out as prescription from dog handler’s once the owner is shown how they should be used. So if you love your dog and want to give him off leash freedom you also have to think about his safety. If you can’t stop him from crossing the road while he’s chasing an animal you’ve done him a disservice. You’ve killed him.
Exactly. Or if your slips it's lead, dodges the bus, and kills a cat or small dog, or bites a child. If you can prevent that from happening with a tap on the shoulder, that's a win for everyone.
You see this Vet who clearly is ignorant and motivated by bias misconceptions are exactly the type that get tools band for no good reason. one, its not about being lazy the Remote Collar can't train your dog for you. Two, Its not even a teaching device. The remote collar is simply a behavior reinforcement and communication tool. Its not something you slap on a dog and zap it every time it does something you don't like ... and if you're using it like that save your money and go back to a rolled up newspaper and get your face bit off. Banning things never works it just forces them under ground and reduces proper education
I've always disliked e-collars and electric fences, because my parents used them on my old gsp and didn't use them properly. the vet is rude and arrogant-that's highly disturbing-but they are both right. 1) the public can't be trusted with a potentially abusive tool, and 2) some behavioral issues can't be solved with positive reinforcement / years of training. banning ecollars isn't the answer here because that's taking away a potentially useful tool from dog owners who've put in the work and tried every other method. we need a middle-ground solution. what if we restrict the sale of ecollars to only professional trainers and people who've taken a class on how to use them?
I don't disagree. One thought I had about this is that manufacturers should put a DVD or a link to training tools in the box... something with large print that really gets attention to encourage people to properly use them rather than to just crank it to high to punish the dog. I know some people still won't read or view, but I think it could help spread awareness about proper training. I think part of the problem we have now is the overall lack of knowledge about how to use them properly so instead of spreading information, we knee jerk react and just vilify them and try banning them.
Here in Germany, ecollars are forbidden by law. It were the old breeding clubs and trainers of working dogs, that came up with the initiative to ban ecollars and prong collars. Even the police and military are not allowed to use those "tools" and dont want to use them, either way. Hurting a dog in general is forbidden, since 1933. Mistreating a dog repeatedly gets you in jail for 3 years. Since the newest "animal welfare laws" from 2011, you may not even put an ecollar on a cow,- Animal welfare has been made part of the german constitution. Btw: Ecollars are banned in alot of european countries..
@@dunjak111 gottseidank haben zivilisierte Länder diesen Dreck verbannt. Leider nicht zuende gedacht, da Tierquäler Tools nach wie vor verkauft werden dürfen
The vet is a small minded person. E collars save dogs lives. Period. And is only to be used by someone who knows how to use one. They aren’t torture device. It’s a correction. And the lady who owns cats and has no dogs….should talk. “Get a lead, and cal it back?” Very stupid. This is used to save dogs from doing something that will get them killed. It’s responsible. The dog trainer is absolutely correct here.
So, I do have to say, I have been training a puppy using only positive methods. But, I do have to say, my partner and I are very active, and take our dog hiking in the desert every spring/summer. It’s covered in rattle snakes. To train a dog to stay away from a snake with an ecollar, it only takes a few minutes. To train a dog to stay away from the snakes using only positive reenforcement takes several weeks, and could mean a trip to the vet, or death before they are trained. It’s circumstantial, and in the hands of the owner.
Vets use needles to give shots. No matter how much peanut butter a vet lathers on a wall for the dog, the dog still feels this “pain.” Shall we ban needles for dogs? Smh
Kramer Endo Stupid comparison. Is injection is given to vaccinate to dog. It is medical treatment. Doctors take an oath to do no harm but injections are painful to people. So, doctors should refuse to give patients injections? Your argument is a fallacy.
So now we have anti-vaxxers in the dog world too. 😂 You can't expect a vaccine not to hurt a bit, that's normal. What's not normal is putting a freaking electric collar around your dog's neck and activate it everytime it does something unacceptable because you don't want the hassle to train it every day. And I don't really care if it doesn't hurt for us humans if we try it because, just like the vet said, we can't compare what WE feel against what dogs feel. So all those "tests" on humans they show us in videos don't really hold any value for me. At this point don't even get a dog if you don't want to dedicate your time, even for just an hour a day, in dog training.
I like that the vet recommended people should call a behaviourist, because he sure as shit had no clue what he was talking about. Dog training is unicorns and rainbows to this guy. 🤦 Plonker. Jamie did a stellar job, when the vet wasn't being rude.
This panel honestly has no idea about dog training. I love how they just say “train it to come back”, these people are morons. This is a tool that educates dogs to come back, when used correctly dogs are educated clearly on what the expectations are. Many things can be dangerous without guidance, alcohol, pesticides, weed killers, pain killers…all of these things need guidance on how to use them responsibly. I find this current state of “everything needs to be positive” is utterly ridiculous and a statement of how our society is at the moment. That vet is a moron.
So train the dog with a leash and treats, then let them off lead, give the recall command, they ignore it and run off in to the road, what now?!? Using the e collar as a tap on the shoulder can solve this.
that's right and trainers know there are times no dog will respond to any recall and an e-collar is the only way. Only people that take their dogs off lead actually get to learn this fact about dogs. The people that are against e-collars are living in a fantasy world.
@@randomcheese1719 Many dog trainers use e-collars on their dogs, but they won't show them to the public. They know it is frowned upon for some reason. That's the image so-called vets and welfare campaigners have created, it's horrible
Anything can be abusive.....let's say we eat, I got a knife in my hand, I could abuse that, now couldn't I!? Laws must be implemented against the abuse of these professional tools, not against the tools per say. Biased people should not debate these things, there are studies for that! Secondly I am pretty sure the vet and cat lady have no clue under what circumstances are these collars used, they debate something they do not understand. The result of this is, in dogs, and what most people will agree with is that we get dogs what in their character are not dogs anymore, they expect the dog to chase a ball but not a cat or a rabbit, in both cases the behaviour is ignited by the dogs prey drive. Train with responsabillity people, do not let these biased, damaged people use things against us!
Both the trainer and the vet pointed out that we don't know what a dog feels compared with what Mathew felt. It would have been good to have a dog on the show to see how it reacted. Though the phone caller who used one gave a good indication that when used his dogs reacted as though it was just a tap on the shoulder.
@@jesse564 Some dogs don’t respond to training from multiple professionals & end up being caged for life because they never have a breakthrough. Rare cases but collars can be their last chance at having some freedom & normalcy. There’s a vibrate function on most collars that is often just as effective in training even though it doesn’t cause pain. It’s instant communication to help the dog associate the behavior with being on the naughty activities list. Similar to using the classic clicker tool to reinforce positive behavior instantaneously without delay. Sometimes emotional punishment can be detrimental to a dog too but I definitely feel you that it’s a touchy subject. It depends on who has the remote. Some screwed up dog owners out there will no doubt misuse shock collars & abuse the dogs with them. But does that mean ban the collar? Hard to say because someone who might misuse the collar that way was probably already hitting/kicking/ shouting at the dog do idk banning the collar would stop them. They might just go back to using their fists. 🤷🏽♀️ I personally wouldn never use one with a shock function but I can respect the fact that some people have them and use the shock feature in emergencies if a dog is running toward traffic or chasing a cat for example. Idk, I wouldn’t put one on my dog but I definitely understand for some dogs it’s the only thing that gives them the ability to be in public and live a full happy life. Difficult subject. No clear answer.
@@jesse564 so getting red pen in school on a bad math answer is painful and abuse? Getting detention and punishment for beating another kid, sending them to the hospital and possibly leaving them in permanent mental scars and trauma not to forget the stress on the other family members is abusive? Dogs that are mentally unstable mutts with no history that we can find, that are easily controlled by a police officer that keeps the dog from killing someone that they are sent after. You go “no” to a dog and it puts its ears back and shows its belly and has never been abused or hit once in its life is that abuse?
“We aren’t like dogs” -“vet” actually your right. Our skin is thinner than a dogs thick fur and skin so technically dogs skin is much more durable to e collars and the stimulation compared to your hand in his case.
I had a husky with a very strong prey drive. When his drive was triggered nothing would break him out of it except the shock collar. My family refused to use the shock collar. The dog was being walked one day, and he saw a rabbit. He broke free of the dog walker, took off after the rabbit, and was hit by a car and killed. The collars have a purpose.
Very sorry what happened to your dog. However, also remember that a tool doesn't guarantee anything. There are dogs that will blow off Level 100 depending on their state of drive. This is why sometimes people have to resort to using two collars and even wetting their skin and coat in the area around the collars. I've heard about it.
Yea, 10%.....put the f.in thing on 100% and feel. Dogs do feel just like we do. Far far to many people and so called trainers basically electrocute their dogs
@@DF-te2vm yes people that do this are wrong. I have one for my dog and most of the time its on the vibration setting but the highest i have even gone on static is 5% and she responds very well. I would only ever use a higher setting for safety reasons such as a dog fight or if my dog goes to run on a road. You never know what can happen so it is more of a safety thing for me. You can train a dog really well but there is never a 100% guarantee that they will listen every time. And it only takes one mistake for something bad to happen. People that abhse their dogs with these collars are going to abuse their dog regardless of whether these collars are available or not
The positive only crowd can't have it both ways ! Some of them advocate certain types of aversive tool (head haltis, halti harnesses, gentle leaders, gencon head collars, dogmatics) are they for lazy people because they're all restrictive in one way or another ? Yet another type of aversive is all kinds of wrong to use. So what some of the "positive only" crowd are saying is it's ok for your dog to receive one type of correction but not another ! Don't be fooled by some of the positive crowd folks, the very moment you use of these so called "kind" tools on your dog that some advocate. You've left the realms of "positive only" training & you're balance training your dog !
Yes I have seen Tammie the horrific injuries caused by harnesses online & how they can effect a dogs gait. But still it's another tool that has potential to be abusive like any other tool. My dog wears a head halter but it's not under the guise I'm training my dog the force free way. I know my dog is wearing an aversive that I can correct him with & I do correct him. The thing is I love positive reinforcement it's such a huge part of balance training for me but I just do not appreciate the hypocrisy & how they can bend the rules for themselves. Their opinions are often uneducated (as was mine once upon a time) & they've never clapped eyes on a prong or E-Collar just believed the propaganda. I'm 36 yrs old & I'd never seen a prong or E-Collar on a dog until I started balance training back in January this year. I've never seen them since then in anything but a positive light because they're used correctly, I've never seen a dog in any type of pain/discomfort from these tools. My dog doesn't even wear a prong or e-collar because there wasn't the necessity for one as yet in his individual case, it always depends dog to dog but should there be one in the future when I try to proof recall etc I will not hesitate to use one.
Thats what many people dont realise, 98% of training is positive reinforcement, and yes that annoys me when they claim head collars are not not aversive, they bloody are! ive seen one dog collapse because of incorrect use of one (it was a hot day and the dogs mouth was forced shut by it) another was put down because the owner was holding the end of the lead, the dog surged ahead and it turned with such force it damages the dogs spinal column. ive seen pretty much every tool abused. there is no such thing as a tool that cant be abused. i think a lot of dog tools need proper training before use.
Imagine if I trazed you for everything bad you did and you had no idea when the shock was coming....you would be afraid to do anything for fear of getting a random shock.
Gentle leaders and similar don't work through punishment. They work by allowing you to gently redirect a dog's attention by changing the direction their head or body are pointed. This allows their focus to move back to you so that they will listen to the command you're giving. But I do agree-- they're not needed! A flat collar, a leash, a human brain, and some patience are the best tools to teach a dog to walk well on a leash.
Proper e collar use is a game changer for many many dogs. We use a low setting, a tap, to reinforce wanted behavior. Only a higher setting in a dangerous situation. Again, proper use of an e collar, allows more, safe off leash time. It is not cruel or lazy. Get educated about the subject. The cat lady chiming in... my sense is ... really?! 🤦🏽♀️
The vet in this video has a very weak argument but plays on the emotive sentiment of animal lovers who have not needed to ever consider alternative training methods. His answer is keep on a lead and pay for a positive method trainer.... And after that fails? What option is left, drug the dog up or euthanasia! ? While positive reinforcement methods can and should be the primary training method, the fact is it is not always an adequate stimulus for every dog and situation. Dog owners who have found purely positive methods to be ineffective, and as responsible dog owners wanting the best life for their pets, consider alternative methods such as a remote collar. If you have not found yourself in this situation, of course on face value it sounds "unnecessary". When used correctly it works and saves dogs lives. For the sake of these dogs, it would be murder to take away this invaluable training tool!
There's a difference between an e collar and an invisible fence. An e collar is a training tool for owners who (contrary to what this vet says) are actively trying to train their dogs. An invisible fence could be viewed as lazy but don't call them the same thing.
This vet I guess is doing his job but his inability to think from another's perspective is startling. He said something about it's open to abuse... so does he believe that all benefits that are there to potential abuse should be outlawed too? Or what about painkillers and sedatives?
Doing his job? I suppose so as a media personality, probably getting paid for it as well. I have seen the dog trainer from Devon on other similar programs making a spectacle of someone feeling the effects of the e-collar (Funny they all emerge unscathed from "barbaric electrocution") and think that far from being paid he is incurring expenses and giving up time he could be earning his living and helping dogs - he uses e-collars regularly but not exclusively for training dogs and I would trust his judgement of them more than the media vet
Ya this vet is a complete moron. A person's bare hands can cause way more abuse to a dog than an e-collar. If we went by the vet's and useless cat lady's logic than we should ban all hands.✋
I have a dog trained on a prong collar that are known for being "cruel" methods of training. My dog gets excited when I put the collar on her. You can turn ANYTHING into a negative training tool. You could put really hard on a normal collar that can cause damage to the trachea. You cant punish 99% of e-collar users to prevent the 1% from abusing them.
Ryan Walsh Exactly!!!! Too lazy to train the dog to walk correctly on a leash The dog only gets excited because it knows it’s going for a walk that’s why it has trouble walking because it gets too excited
This vet has a large lack of knowledge on how electric shocks work. Its not the voltage level that its using. If you change the frequency as in HZ. It can be at the same voltage level. There is a Electrical engineer on UA-cam called Electroboom who shocks himself for fun every time. In one video he shows him hooked up to a variable amplitude and frequency generator on his tongue with clamps. He then turns it up to a point where it is painful for him then he starts altering the frequency of the charge into the higher Hertz range and at one point its still " shocking " him but he cant feel it. Then he alters it more it he can start to feel it but its no longer uncomfortable. He says it feels like a vibration from a phone. How is this any different then the dog running at full speed due to excitement and reaching the end of the leash or extended leed that people so often use and it " close lines" the dog which lays him out on the ground just from a normal collar. Also just using the word Dog to describe your pet is like saying you own a type of cat and its really a lion. You cant compare the level of resistance to pain of a Bischon Frise to a 1 year old unneutered Rottweiler that has the neck muscles of a bodybuilder and can literally hang his body weight from his neck and not be bothered by it. The ability that the person has to "shock " their dog is no different then European being able to purchase cars that can go much faster then in the United States. Why... why do they need to be able to go 260 kph or more. But the European just say we dont because we obey the traffic laws and it would be wrong. Okay so apply that thinking to this device. It can be turned up and used inappropriately but set just to the level where the dog notices it .
Like to see these doubters train a working dog to recall at ultra long range or a deaf dog without an e collar... People are far too quick to judge training aids
The vet believes all dogs are the same. I've owned cocapoos and muts that could be trained using all positive training and treat training. We've recently adopted a working line german shepherd and no all positive or treat training could calm her high prey drive and leash reactivity. The ecollar has helped a lot with her recall. If she was to see a rabbit there was no calling her off of it. The ecollar has prevented her from running on to busy roads a few times now.
So basically, the guy that opposes e- collar his only argument is: Using e-collar leave people open to abusing dogs. Cars and guns can be abused as well. So what are you gonna do outlaw every single thing that has the potential to be abused.
Positive reinforcement is great at helping teach dogs what to do. But its not great at teaching dogs what not to do. Dogs will 99% of the time choose to do what benefits them most at that point in time. Ecollar training gives people the confidence that if the dog chooses to ignore them, then they have a back up which tells the dog, "Hey, I may be 100m away but i can still touch you" since when used correctly the ecollar feels like a tapping sensation.
I use positive reinforcement to teach the basics and tricks. But if my Newfie pup gets it in his head that he wants to do something, he's going to try to do it. Sometimes the only thing that gets through to him is a negative response from me. Chase the cats? You go outside (he hates being outside). There is a consequence for that action. I don't care if it's just playing. He's 100lbs and only 7 months old. He can hurt the cats easily just pawing at them. I've also got a big tom that hates his guts, isn't afraid of him, but he insists on trying to be friends with. That cat has attacked him twice, and I don't blame the cat one bit, but I don't want my pup to lose an eye either. You'd think getting the claws would deter him, but nope. He just barks and pisses the cat off more. So it's "No kitty. Outside." If he leaves the cats alone, he gets a treat and a good boy. If he doesnt he goes outside to think about life for awhile. He hates being outside, so it's working. I won't rule out an e-collar though, if it means keeping him and my cats safe from his ridiculously large self. I suspect he'll grow out of it. He's very good friends with 3 of my cats and they treat him like he's some weird, dumb, giant cat toddler. 😆 The other three... different story.
The vet has a closed mind. By his logic we should ban sticks because they could be used to hurt a dog. The effective settings for dogs are just a tingle feeling to get their attention from a distance. There is no pain involved. These collars are just another tool in the training aresenal. The lady in the video with cats has also made up her mind without knowing the facts.
E collars, prong collars/pinch collars, choke chains are wonderful tools when used properly. These training devices don’t train dogs! Training trains your dog’s. Let’s be realistic here, E collars can and will save dogs lives when you utilize them properly. When misused they’re torture devices and a complete disservice to any dog. Quality of devices is imperative when training. Dogtra, Martin Systems, Garmin, E technologies these are all dependable and affordable brands. When purchasing any quality e collars be prepared to pay a minimum of two hundred dollars. Shock collar or electric collar are not comfortable terms in society but I will assure you they’re neither of those. They’re exactly like a tense machine, which stimulates muscles tissue. I will always fight for the rights of these tools, because they are incredible tools then again they must be respected and trained on low levels until the dog understands what that sensation means. Clarity is paramount in dog training, its the key to success and these tools are intended for that purpose. If you know what you’re doing with these tools they can do so much more than just being a correction or an aversive consequence to a dog. Like anything in general, they can be beneficial in your training or they can seriously mess up your dog. Please stop doing that to such beautiful creatures. That being said DO NOT purchase these dog training devices if you’re not willing to take the time to throughly learn and understand the Do’s & Dont’s when using them. Be better, do better. Dog’s deserve that much. Balanced Training 💯🐕♥️
A badly used collar and leash is far more damaging. Education is the way forward for the public. Dogs are put to sleep by rescue organisations that could be saved using a collar
Imagine being in your apartment building scared to go in the elevator or down the stairs because your dog will freak out and lunge at another dog. Your stressed. You spend hours and months on positive reinforcement with little improvement. The people in the apartment are scared of your dog now. Your worried about getting kicked out. Then your vet suggest anxiety medicine for your dog. You think training is going to help that? No, the dog trainer was right. Sometimes, there's nothing else that can be done. Your et the end of your rope. You've spent time, money and energy trying to fix your dogs behavious but unfortunately, because the dog becomes in so close proximity to other dogs, there's no amount of treats or attention that will distract your dog from not going over the edge.
The body resistance of dogs is different than that of humans… feeling the shock for yourself, saying “it’s very mild” is very useless… also, psychologically it’s very destructive to train a dog to expect something negative all the time. It’s a recipe for ptsd
Yep, not to mention the fact that the average "trainer" and member of the public forgets or is unaware of the fact that how much of a shock the dog receives can vary from one day to another on the same setting just by virtue of how much moisture there is in the air or in the dogs coat. I dont see a problem with a vibration, but an electrical shock is abuse, end of story.
Not if used correctly. As for your "body resistance" argument, I agree that it differs between dogs and humans. My dog will pull so hard on his leash (with a regular collar) that he is crushing his trachea and can't breathe. I could never tolerate that. I CAN tolerate the e-collar, on a low setting, on my neck. So that's what my dog gets when he charges other dogs or people. Shock collar training does not train the dog to "expect something negative" all the time. My dog only gets shocked when he is endangering himself or others (which is rare). He sure doesn't have PTSD, nor does he fear me, because he wants to be with me ALL the time! 😃
Who the hell trains their dog to "expect something negative all the time." People (like me) who use e-collars are using positive reinforcement 99% of the time.
Having the vet & cat-lady in 'spotlight'-seating while the trainer is given audience-seating speaks volumes about the agenda of this media organisation.
Indeed. That ought to be frowned upon. The lesson is, don't accept being interviewed on telly if you are not around the same table.
exactly
The vet accused e-collar users of being lazy. And yet, by his overgeneralizations and black-and-white thinking and his refusal to follow the logic that was being presented to him, he was being a lazy thinker. He was being a lazy vet.
"It's a potentially abusive item"? Wth? So is a leash! So is a crate! Should we ban those too?! Trying to raise a dog exclusively on positive reinforcement and treats is no different from attempting to raise a child the same way. Does anyone actually think that would work. Lmao!
That's not enough evidence to jump into conclusion that the media organization was biased. And it doesn't really matter where you sit, the important thing is that you have a strong argument.
With this vet’s logic nobody should be allowed to own a kitchen knife.
This “Ve-T” is shockingly rude.
The trainer has quite a lot of patience.
Hey veT, just because you rudely cut people off, doesn’t make what they are saying hold less validity.
|Not rude...just passionate against what he see's as animal cruelty....he's a vet after all.
No marc the vet was condescending and RUDE. That is exactly what I thought. Talking over people, shutting them down with his hand gestures and if you actually listen to the meaning of his words there is no real meaning - except his opinion and distortion of the truth.
A grown adult can be passionate without being rude and trying to shut down debate. Debate means hearing all sides. He categorically stated, "There is no argument." That is rude and intolerant.
He's rude and arrogant. His arguments were weak and he knew it because every time he was presented with a reasoned response he just puffed his chest out and claimed cruelty and laziness. He has no idea what goes into training a dog on a collar, he just made ignorant, emotionally charged statements and sweeping allegations. That's not passion, that's arrogance.
Yes! That vet needs to shut up and learn to listen. To me it seems he is cutting the trainer off so that no one gets a chance to learn and get educated. Cant learn anything if someone is always sabotaging it.
What's super clear is that the veterinary behaviorist with the strong opinion has never in his career experienced the stimulation that the e-collar gives. Amazing. Really amazing.
or actually trained a dog before
To say “don’t let them off lead,” is misleading. What happens when the neighbors kids let your dog out of the yard and has no good recall? Or the dog is reactive and decides to chase a car? Positive training with treats works but not at distance. It all depends on the dog. Leashes can hurt dogs too, should they be banned?
@@XOriente I agree its misleading. I would even argue that its more cruel to never let your dog off-leash than a e-collar. Dogs are made to run, zoomies around, run like hell with other dogs. Some places don't have appropriate dog parks for this, are you supposed to deny your dogs needs and just "walk them" and never have them run with other dogs? My dog is a husky, she listens extremely well in the house or while on leash. But she is also 1 year old and really needs to play and run with other dogs. Well, unfortunately, I can't let her off leash because she desperately wants to go "explore" by herself. No matter the amount of positive reinforcement (which I do EXCESSIVELY) will get her to recall when she decides to run off to that squirrel, other dogs or even that random person walking (she is very social). So what am I supposed to do? Also, its always someone with a 10 pound mutt that tells you how to "handle" your high energy working dogs lol, always drives me nuts.
The dog trainner held his own pretty well, especially considering he was up against a panelest of idiots.
Frank shut up he is up against a vet and besides if he is such a good trainer than why does he need a ecollar or shock collar
Emile Cupido
EXACTLY
that’s lazy work...
Emile Cupido
The “trainer” is the type of people that want pit bulls or any muscular dog killed...
@@creativesparks2164 Is lazy your favourite word, because it is totally lazy just to keep repeating that without any proper understanding or explanation. If you knew that trainers work, and if you were not so lazy you could find plenty of examples of it, you would know that for some dogs he may not use an e-collar and he is a very good trainer. The vet on the other hand might know how to put a dog to sleep because it has bad behaviour but being a vet does not mean he knows anything about training dogs.
@@creativesparks2164 You wrote, "The “trainer” is the type of people that want pit bulls or any muscular dog killed..."That is just an outright lie.
Vet qualified in animal physical health, vs trainer qualified in how to train a dog. I don't go to a trainer when my dog is sick, why would I go to a vet to train him
good points ... a medical doctor is not a skilled dog handler and user of electronic collars.
Well done straw man argument. this is about using cruel methods to train an animal because people cannot put real effort into training their dogs.
It shows how the vet doesn't know what he's talking about by how he changes his argument structure
This vet is a pratt.....what does he think farmers use to keep livestock in.....a fencer!
Like they did in the 1800s????
Gotta love a cat person, a great dane owner, and a vet giving advice on dog training/behaviour. As if they have any idea what is needed to control a high drive GSD, Malinois, Rotti etc. Give me a break.
I have a high drive shepherd mix, and I couldn’t let her play outside because she would scale a six foot fence, couldn’t take her for a walk because she would HURT me with all the leash pulling, couldn’t train her with positivity alone because she didn’t care about treats or praise in the moment. The collar, a high quality collar, gave her boundaries she respects, and now she can play outside all she wants, go for walks, and accept treats when she does the right thing (because she’ll take them now), and now even be out of her crate and mingling with my cats. She’s a lot less anxious, and much happier. My other dog has always been able to do those things because he responds well to regular training methods and is highly sensitive to my approval. I don’t let him off leash outside a fence, though, because he couldn’t care less about treats or approval when his interest is piqued outside. They’re very different dogs and respond to things very differently. If we ban things like remote collars and prong collars, we are putting a LOT of dogs to death because owners cannot provide a big enough incentive for high drive or anxious dogs to behave with distractions (and we cannot avoid distractions).
Agree with Travis and Sara. I've got an extremely high energy and prey drive wolfhound. Our Zeke is the least laid back wolfhound in the world, more like a Malinois in personality than a typical wolfhound. Zeke, who before the E collar was an escape artist, would be dead without the E collar. We read a lot about how to train with the E collar before we got it, and it took two weeks before it sank into Zeke's hard head that he couldn't get away from the E collar. Zeke is no longer constantly trying to barge out of the house or the car door. We can take him on hikes and evening walks off lead without him running after deer or bears, or just disappearing into the woods. The E collar, used correctly, is a life saver for tough to train dogs!
I had a client spend everyday training her dog intensely. She was AKC certified and all that. She hated e-collars until one day something startled the dog and the leash collar broke. The dog darted into the street and was hit by a car, she spent over 3000 dollars on vet bills but luckily it was alright. She sucked it up and got an e collar and training. One day again the dog was startled by a truck and it ran off. She used the e collar (low settings) and the dog quickly came back.
We can't control the environment and training alone can only go so far in a loud and distracting world. This is the same argument with guns. tools aren't the problem, ignorance is.
Yeah it’s just lazy
It's not even equivalent to guns. The intention with guns is to rapidly inflict substantial ballistic trauma; that is their literal only purpose. Furthermore there is the fact that an electric collar is not possible to use on a human whom could just take the collar off. A gun has no limits on it's use and only has the intention mentioned above.
It's equivalent to cars. The intention with cars is faster transportation which is a noble endeavour - similar to the intention of an electric collar which is to induce the dog to display proper behaviours and to keep the dog safe in an emergency. The thing about both cars and electric collars is that there exists an abuse potential with both of them; cars can be incredibly destructive to property and life, electric collars can be used to abuse and effectively torture dogs, respectively.
@@ryanwalsh1556 >Cars don't damage humans while they drive, where it is a fact that shock collars damage animals even when used properly by trained professional.
You're literally on a video where it is very clearly shown to not be a fact. Dogs are way tougher than people are, if it doesn't bother a person it's extremely unlikely it would effect a dog.
>They are making it illegal because there are much safer tools that work better on the market... Why do you think everyone with a degree to work with animals hate these tools but trainers love them. Anyone can be a trainer you should get your information from VETS, licensed animal behaviorist and many more that have studied animals. not trainers that need to shock your dog to make them sit. Believe who ever you want to, but I will stay with the proven scientific data.
You have provided none of this data. Furthermore the suggestion isn't and has never been immediately start a puppy with an electric collar. It's a tool of last resort when the animal is at risk of hurting people, other pets or itself. Obviously the goal would be to solely use positive reinforcement however for some dogs sometimes due to circumstances as a puppy or previous bad experiences their desire for the positive reinforcement will be overwhelmed by their desire to commit the undesired behaviour.
The problem here is that dogs can kill humans. They kill x60-x100 more people per year than sharks do in the United States (easy data). If there ever is a risk to humans due to let's say an aggressive working herding dog getting off the property and attacking children there are two options given the dog has the desire to roam well beyond it's desire to be praised -
1. Euthanize the dog. This is the immediate recommendation of every vet. A dog that is a danger to people shouldn't be allowed to live given the risks associated with it's existence.
2. Use something like an electric collar that increases in severity as the dog gets further from the property.
The question is would you rather kill a dog or cause it slight pain a dozen times to get it to correct a dangerous behaviour.
No one is suggesting using an electric collar to try and teach your dog to sit and roll-over. It's a tool that should be limited in it's accessibility, however still accessible as it absolutely can be a tremendous last-ditch effort to see progress correcting a dangerous behaviour before the final choice to put the dog down is made.
There are no actual numbers I could find on dog deaths caused by trainers however how do you know that it's an electric collar? The negative reinforcement could be anything, the point is an electric collar is accurate, can be applied at distance without appearing to be a result of human intervention and is tremendously consistent compared to almost any other negative stimulus. The only alternatives in a serious case will create an association between humans and fear and pain. Which is entirely antithetical to the goal; which is for the dog to find the negative behaviour to be painful and as such cease to engage in the negative behaviour.
My Dog is young, full of energy and very adventurous, I am so glad that I got a [PetSafe Stay & Play Compact Wireless Dog & Cat Fence] it took two light shocks and now she knows not to go in the road or chase bikers. It is a miracle worker.
OH BOY YOUR ANECDOTE SURE DOES CONVINCE ME
This vet is wrong. I literally used an electric collar on my dog yesterday because a 5 ft Eastern Diamondback was sitting in the middle of the dog run sunning in the evening. I did not shock my dog. Simply hit the tone. She immediately froze and looked at me. I gave her a command and she came straight back too me. It is a valuable training tool. The vet is making every pet owner out to be an idiot who will unlock the settings and just zap their dog full tilt in some cruel way. This is just not true. When used properly its a safety device. Saved her from one snake, 2 skunks, and a porcupine so far. I have shocked myself. Its not even pain, it reminds me of the tens machine.
There’s a big difference between maxing out the “shock” setting and zapping your dog when they misbehave and using the beep or vibrate function to gain your dogs attention and improve some commands.
Wow, I'm glad you saw the snake before the dog got to it. That's just one more argument for the use of E collars. You didn't even have to use the shock, just the tone because you trained your dog correctly. Good job
Of course ecollar owners and trainers are unable. This bullshit including prongcollars is banned in civilized countries.
If u don't know establish orientation and obedience without pressing a button own barbie dolls.
It is based on a TENS machine.
First off, that’s fantastic! A little buzz > snake bite! Second, was it electric shock or vibration? I’m assuming there’s a difference, correct? (Sincere question)
This dog trainer 100% owned this debate vs this panel. Articulated his points with perfect precision.
I wish i could speak like that
like a lawyer defending a criminal
Positive reinforcement training works great with high prey drive hunting dogs chasing a cripple across a roadway while cars are coming. If that dog doesn't hear you because it's target focused and it's about to get hit by a car... there isn't a treat on this earth that can stop a dog who doesn't hear you. I can nick one of my hunting dogs and have them stop on a dime before getting into danger. Not to mention having them get into snakes, deer, porcupines etc etc.
@@FlynVOutfttrsNGundogs-Jordy ok. same scenario. but swap dog for toddler
@TheWeepingDalek so you put a leash and collar on toddlers too? Make them sleep in /ride in crates? Dogs aren't people
I think the “never let your dog off it’s lead and you won’t have use an e-collar” is the stupidest thing I ever heard. I know from personal experience that at some point your dog will run my pet dog does it a lot.
Also with the the “it’s a system that can cause abuse” flat collars can be abusive!
Right! Additionally, is a dog supposed to stay on a leash even indoors where a child or someone who cannot defend themselves against an untrained/rambunctious dog or puppy? Lol they need to be trained just like little kids to be gentle and, in turn, happier!
Very true, flat collars cause many serious injuries to the larynx and trachea every year due to people using them incorrectly… but there is no move to ban them! The same should be applied to e collars. When someone is murdered, you put the murderer on trial, not the weapon.
"I got the e collar to save my dogs life because he could get hit by a car when he runs off and all I gotta do is push the button to get him to come back" is also the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. If your dog runs off, that button can't save him from getting hit by a car no matter how much you press it. He can just as easily get hit by a car while he's running back home. Probably more likely actually sinse he's so determined to run home so the collar will shut off. And the collar itself is probably distracting them from there surroundings more.
@@lc4life369 I don’t know why you think you’re qualified to criticise the techniques if you lack such a fundamental understanding of how they are used. Imagine if I started reviewing movies without watching them? No one would respect my opinion, and they’d be right in doing so.
It’s not about using the e collar for a recall, it’s about creating a negative association with the road. Road = annoying vibration or static shock = negative experience. Going on the road leads to bad things. I need to avoid the road to avoid bad things. Dogs learn this line of logic and have it strengthened through practice: adding distractions like toys, laser pointers, people or animals etc.
Eventually your dog will learn that even if they really want to chase that cat, the road will still be an undesirable place to be. If they show restraint, their human is likely to shower them with reinforcement PLUS they don’t have to experience anything negative from the road. It’s a simple and easy choice for the dog, not nearly as convoluted as you seem to think it is.
Also, please note that dogs are smart and can pick up on context clues very well. Generally they can tell the difference between running across the road without permission = bad and crossing the road with their human on a walk. I have never had a dog develop anxiety when crossing the road with their owner as a result of the e collar road safety training. If I think a dog is prone to such behaviour, I wouldn’t be using an e collar in the first place. Every dog is different, and just like sculpting, you will need different tools for different projects. You can use a hammer and nail on two pieces of wood, but try it on ceramics and you’ve got a shattered sculpture: glue would have worked much better to connect the pieces. I’m not stupid and I don’t think e collars are for everyone, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a place in certain situations.
@@user-qp4th3ij7z the problem is people don't know how to use them. They just expect it to work. Idk why you think your more qualified. I got this info from a dog trainer who advertises and uses these type of collars. They don't just save your dogs life unless you do the training needed with your dog with the e collar. (As you basically explained yourself) Thanks for the explanation but I still think it's a very ignorant thing to assume that.
I love how the close minded vet would not try the contacts on his hand because he knows it would show that the collar is not abusive. Training collars are tools any training tool can be abusive in an abusive owner’s hands. My dog was fully obedience trained prior to introduction of the e-collar. He gets excited when I put on his e-collar because he knows we are going somewhere fun and that we will play fun games involving treats, toys, play, and attention. We go to classes 1-2 times per week and we train formally along with using everyday life as a training opportunity.
I’ve been a trainer since 1980. A successful professional trainer. I have trained aggressive and reactive dogs and friendly, sweet dogs. There is no better tool in my toolbox than an electronic collar. Everyone talking against them is out of their minds, they are always people who don’t know how to use them, and who have never worked with difficult dogs. Most of the time they’re people that Have never even trained a nice dog to the fullest potential.
I have a very high driven super active uncontrolled hard to train pomapug. Will this work? I do believe anyone who had not dealt with an animal like this has no clue. But those who do are desperate to find a away to train their pet cause I have tried over and over and my dog won't listen. He is currently 6 months and have been trying since he was 3 months.
@@Weallknow-mk1nd You can get in touch with professionals such as Danny Wells and Jamie Penrith (the trainer in the video). I assume you are UK based. They'll guide you properly.
Lee, yep! I've seen first-hand how E collars can be lifesavers for difficult dogs. You could waste a year of daily training on some "untrainable" dogs with no real results, or spend a month training with the E collar and come out with a dog that knows its boundaries and is safe and relaxed off lead, in the back yard, and around other people and dogs.
No amount of positive/treat based reward training worked with my dog, his instinct to chase was far greater than anything I could offer him. I sought the advice of a reputable trainer and within a couple of hours his behaviour was under control. My dog is not fearful or anxious, he is a happy dog who can go off to play but now listens. If it was not for these ecollars he would have been restricted to lead walks forever which to me is far more cruel than using this tool to correct his behaviour.
Completely agree.
Ur 100% correct!!!
You regard taking a dog for a walk on lead as cruel ? Ever heard of off leash dog parks ?
Thom Vogan i don’t think it’s cruel to walk your dog on leash but e collar is necessary for off leash
@@thomvogan3397
Dog parks are for idiots
They're full of lazy owners who couldn't care less about their dog's behavior, or can't control their dog. I would say 99% of people at dog parks have no business owning a dog. They should have goldfish
Want to make your dog fearful, or get your dog hurt (or yourself)? Take your dog to a dog park
People want to let their dogs off leash and go for a walk. E-collars help with that training. They are an incredible tool that can enrich a dog's life
Terrible attitude from someone who calls themself a vet. His job is to protect animals welfare yet will not even let the dog trainer speak let alone listen to what he has to say. E collars are not for lazy people many people spend huge amounts of time and money on trainers yet still have problems. Just because this guy hasn't experienced it doesn't mean others do not.
Look at his body language (the vet). He's tuned out of reality like he's some kind of programmed robot.
The trainer has been tucked up by show producers the vet is totally arrogant and one sided the trainer is spot on in what he’s saying
And the woman who is not a dog owner, who has cats, should have no voice in this argument. Why do we care what you think? You have no idea what we, as dog owners, are dealing with. So why even venture an opinion?
Yes -- she should have shut up as soon as she said she didn't own dogs.
OMG these people and this discussion is absolutely pointless. Even a stick can be abused. The fact is that some dogs have got behaviours that are complex to address and it is not just buying a lead or a treat. The trainer should have been allowed to talk more specifically
I agree. It’s like people. Sometimes people need a little extra support of some type to learn and/or to function.
That vet was incredibly rude and arrogant. His arguments could be easily picked apart if only he kept his mouth shut long enough to allow others to speak. He called e-collars a lazy owner tools,.... what the hell??? E-collars are a versatile tool that allows clear communication through touch. The host who had an opinion based solely on the emotion he caused by simply saying they were cruel is part of the problem. She has cats and has no idea how ecollars are even used, yet felt educated enough to offer an opinion. How incredibly disturbing.
I guess we should now ban doggie daycares since those are for lazy owners who don't have time to exercise their dogs. While we are at it, we should ban head halters, harnesses and gentle leaders since they are for "lazy owners" who haven't taught their dogs to walk on leash. I suppose this vet has no problem desexing dogs for "lazy owners" who can't mind their dogs and prevent them from procreating, despite it now being known to cause behavioural problems in dogs and joint issues in dogs desexed prior to maturity. I'll bet he makes quite a lot of money desexing dogs for people who have been brainwashed into thinking it is necessary.
100% Totally agree with you. "gentle leaders" are the worst in my opinion...head-halter type collars put all the pressure of the dog's body weight on the nose and snout and force them not to pull that way.
lightworkerspi great reply and quite right
Spot on!
Couldnt agree more. People cannot correct their dogs and next thing you know dogs are banned entirely because of potentially dangerous behaviors that get worse over time from no correction.They do not understand whats right and wrong. You cannot be a good friend if you keep crossing boundaries and that includes dogs.
I agree. They are just a way of touching your dog from a distance. It's a communication device mainly used to tidy things up when the dog is at distance. It's not about pain, it's more like tapping on your dog on the shoulder and saying "hey buddy, I'm about to ask you to do something ". I think they are great for dogs that have owners that understand what they and know how to use them properly. As better and more reliable a dog is while off leash the more freedom they tend to get ...
I think a lot if people don't understand dog training and immediately think you're violently shocking you're do as a punishment.
I get the fact that idiots my get hold of the device but what can you do apart from banning them from owning dogs ? If they are abusing their dog with an E collor, I bet they are abusing it with hands , dog leads, threats , e.t.c.
My point is used correctly no problems with e collors. Dog abuse's don't need e collors to abuse dogs they will use just about anything available to cause their dog pain and upset. So I don't think they should be banned for that reason .
I saw an asshole lift a poor dog up off the ground by its neck using a conventional collor and lead. Does this mean they should be banned too? No
Nothing worse than a dog owner that bashes everything that's not 100% positive but have a dog that they have ruined. Usually see their dog choking itself to death at the end of the leash on walks, never allowed off leash to run and play as it's badly trained/hasn't been taught basic off leash stuff, barks/aggressive , and is usually a complete nutcase. It's criminal. It's dog abuse. Drives me nuts that dog owners like this are still socially acceptable.
you contact a behaviorist, and they drug your dog to oblivion. If you only bought dogs from rescues that PTS the troubled behavioral issue dogs that you wouldn't need to harm a dog. This poor trainer demonstrates his patients far more than the Vet who thinks all a dog needs is patience and treats.
Dog trainer and vet have completely different jobs, I am for training with an ecollar! Positive only sounds lovely but it doesn't work with every dog. I had 8 months training with a positive only trainer and I hardly got any results. Intact my dogs behaviour got worse. I had an aggressive german shepherd and I'm responsible for him so I ecollar trained him through a professional in the end.
The point of a shock collar is to punish. If it's not painful it's not working. It's cruel
@@jesse564 LOL What the hell is this mentality to coddle a big beast as if it's a human infant? No it's not cruel to discipline a dog. This is why some dogs become aggressive an nippy. Because they never get corrected. An Ecollar makes the job more effective since the dog least expects the correction and is forced into submission.
@@jesse564 e collars now, can beep first, vibrate and can use very low level shocks that are unpleasant, not painful. Some people don't even use the shock part, the vibrate is enough.
"If dogs are only bought from breeders or from behaviorally assessed rescues"...I guess what he's saying there, is my sketchy dog Leila should have been killed in the shelter, instead of adopted out to someone who was willing to work with her. Ban the use of aversive tools that can absolutely save dog's lives. That's the message we hear from R+ people who are like religious zealots. And who would rather see dogs die, than see the training that can rehabilitate them utilized. That's it. All I will say on this point. You (who adopt this rationale) are insane.
Ok but there are other options like vibration collars and ones that use sound to correct there are some amazing muzzles check out the muzzle up project if you get the correct type you can muzzle train and many high prey drive pups or aggression dogs can be saved by muzzle training as long as you educate yourself on how to fit it correctly, so they are able to pant drink and take a treat make it a positive thing and you are protecting them as well until they can learn to be without it check out a trainer Steffens Baldwin on Instagram he SAVES THOUSANDS OF THE WORST CASES where dogs were to be euthanized he rehabs them without shock collars he saves so many dogs
@@krystinlyn1976 you p
I have this collar and was taught by an extremely experienced dog trainer on how to use it, of which he took a solid 3 weeks before introducing the collar at a level 1-2 (it goes to 8). She never needed past a 2. I couldn't feel the two on my neck. This collar has saved her life. Just as the trainer said, it is not cruelty--it prevents cruelty. All of these collars are not the same. This is NOT a shock.
You’re right. Not all collars shock. The one I had did. I put it on my neck and barked 😂 It definitely was an electric shock! Felt like shocking your hand on something metal on a dry day. Or like taking certain fabrics out of the dryer. Using on an 8 would be quite painful.
@@rebeccasainz2715 your talking about a bark collar. That's not the same as whet they are talking about. Completely different in every way. Can you get to that level with them? Yes. But the lower levels of a quality e-collar is no stronger than a tens device given to you by your doctor for back pain or something like that. The working level for the vast majority of dogs can't be felt by most humans.
I used to be anti collars. To be honest, I was anti them because they sounded scary and I had a knee-jerk response as an animal lover. I have since used one (with a trainer) and it has given my dog a level of freedom and safety that I never thought he would have. He is a rescue with a high prey drive and a lot of strength, but he can now go off lead on the moors and he is delighted!
He isn't confused by the collar because it is used as part of a coherent training approach. Our relationship isn't harmed; it's better because he knows what is expected and can regulate his behavior. I had spent literally hundreds of hours on positive-only approaches (and yes, trainers, books and "gentle" headcollars). I am not lazy, and I am not incompetent, and I appreciate that if you've had a dog respond well to positive-only, it's easy to disregard this. But please look at the actual data, and listen to the people whose animals would otherwise spend their life on a lead/risk being shot.
People who want to abuse an animal will do so, and they won't spend £300 on a collar and trainer first, so why don't we regulate?
I am sure yours is not an isolated story. The vet kept saying use positive reinforcement but didn''t say what to do if it doesn't work. He said go to a professional trainer - some do use e-collars as your story shows.
What if the collar breaks? Will he still listen? ...thats the true test.
Ok, would you like to walk around wearing a shock collar on your THROAT. Touching your neck, poking into your skin. Not touching a grown man’s hand
I'm the same! There is so much misinformation out there about them! Yes there are people who use them improperly, but if they didn't have the collar they'd probably be abusing the dog in some other way. Its the people that are the problem! Anyway I used to think they gave some huge shock and that they were super cruel and only for stopping vicious dogs. Then I adopted 2 dogs that are technically bred for hunting (weimaraners) and they have such a strong prey drive and sense of smell that I literally cannot get them to pay attention when we are outside. Its completely unrealistic to think I'm going to spend months with them on long leads every time they go into the backyard to go to the bathroom, getting all tangled up and frustrated with that, or have me chase them or play chase games just to try to get them to actually come back to me (which also doesn't work when they are locked onto a scent). I'm actually looking into purchasing an e-collar now. I have spent hundreds on training, long leads, tasty treats, and have spent countless hours playing recall games with the dogs indoors and outdoors, but once they get together outside or lock onto a scent, its like I don't exist, even if I were dangling a roast chicken from my hand.
It isn't cruel to use a device that delivers a mild sensation that breaks them out of their fixation on whatever it is that they are following and puts their focus back on the alpha (YOU!). I thought shock collars really hurt them and never realized that dogs are trained using a very mild sensation. I think people equate them to tasers or something and they are not!
@@crystalvanantwerpen235 a whistle would also work and is just as easy to train a dog with too. People equate them to tazers because sadly they are the go to for many owners who are just looking for a quick fix as opposed to getting down to the root of the problem. I had a dog who chased pretty much anything that moved and i had no training aids whatsoever...i taught him what was ok to chase by giving him a release command on a ball or other toy but would say leave it or stay if it was a person or other animal. It took a bit but eventually he learned chasing balls was more fun than chasing animals. Always reward when they come back since they may associate scolding with coming back and it will be harder to get them to come in the future. The key is to make yourself more valuable than what they are chasing and finguring out their reward currency...your dogs love to chase things so give them something appropriate to play with when they get the command right.
E collars are a tool that CAN be abused. Just like a gun, or a ball bat. Put in the hands of irresponsible people can be toxic. My Shepard wears an e collar & it’s been the best tool to use when training him. We still
Interact w/ him & give him patience & “him room” to be be good & obedient. The e collar is a tool, it doesn’t take place of the owners responsibility towards their dog.
This. A person can choke a dog to death with a slip lead.
She goes I don't have dogs I have cats 😭🤣😂😂so why ask her anything if she is clueless on this ....
Exactly.. would like to see her handle a high drive dog. . Lol
Exactly lol
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Well she is a vet isn’t she
But she still has an opinion. And she has the right to it.
At the end of the video: Basically the vet thinks that if dogs are bought off responsible breeders than there is no need for shock collars. What the F... has this to do with dog development of a behaviour issue? These are often due to the context they live in and the relationship with the owner and the household; and the experiences they will do together. This is the most pathetic attempt to link 2 unrelated things together.
I adopted a full grown rottweiler with absolutely no training. Under the guidance if a professional trainer, used a remote collar. I was able to stop her from dragging me down the street and eat my cat. Not once did my dog ever get hurt or have adverse effect. Shes is a beautiful well behaved and HAPPY dog now.
Next time adopt a chihuahua
Well done 👍
@@shariquinn7679 in my experience, Rottweilers are less vicious and easier to train than Chihuahuas
And your comment was that without it you would not have succeded or what?
Vet says " part of being a responsible dog owner is training a dog" - that is what e-collars are used for by people being responsible dog owners.
So let a dog pull on the leash and have a high risk of the trachea collapsing or have a collar that saves u and ur dog
Tachibana the service dog
I use a prong collar on my golden retriever. Sorry but I’d rather have a well mannered assistance dog (he’s my AD) than a dog that pulls on the lead and possibly puts me at risk.
E collar should only be used for off leash training
Wilber Porras
That’s what we’re saying...
Salty C no it’s used by people who are lazy and dont want to spend the time with training there dog
some dogs just cant be trained the normal ways. my dog will not even CARE if i had a scotch fillet steak in my hand. he will not pay it any attention. he is driven to get what he wants. a little tingle and he will pay attention.
It's also unfair to call us lazy. I've spent THOUSANDS of dollars training my dog. I've done everything under the sun, I've spent hours day in day out trying all the methods - these were the only methods that worked.
“Positive reward based training can be used to train a dog” Or “keep the dog on a lead”.These are the two solutions that are repeatedly churned out by people like this ignorant vet who say electric collars are cruel.Firstly if they had put a chocolate biscuit in front of the vet whilst he was in his ‘defence fight drive’, would he have taken it? I suspect not because he was so high in defence fight drive that all he wanted to do was verbally attack the trainer! Well matey, it’s no different with a dog! If you work with dogs in a high Prey drive or defence drive whose instinct is to chase or attack, you can train them with food (if they’re food driven) but there is no food in the world that works to interrupt an animal instinct when they’re on a scent or want to attack. Just like you wouldn’t let the trainer speak, you wouldn’t listen to verbal commands or I suspect have been interested in a chocolate biscuit!So, why don’t you come and speak to the hundreds of dog owners I’ve seen over 10 years rehabilitating dogs with behaviour issues. Let them tell you what they tell me “we’ve seen a few trainers and all they do is tell you to distract our dog with food. They’re not interested in the food, it doesn’t work when they want to get to that dog/person or chase after something!”.So Mr Vet, stick to what you were trained in -veterinary medicine, although with your aggressive energy I wouldn’t want you around any dog of mine or that I work with.
Totally agree! When either of my hunting dogs are on a mission or on a chase, there is no amount of food and praise that gets them to stop, and I can't run fast enough to grab them. They can't be on leashes forever.
People fail to realize that some small corrections in the beginning afford the dog so much more freedom in life once they know what is expected of them. For example... lets say my 2 dogs never properly learn to recall when off leash because of their prey drive. Ok that means they can't go hunt, they can't go run around the fields, they have to stay tethered to me. For a couple of dogs that LOVE and NEED to run, this is cruel and unfair that they should stay confined to a fence or lead their whole lives.
Now lets say these same two dogs are worked with with e-collars using humane and professional methods to produce a reliable recall. Now these dogs get to spend their days hunting, running, and enjoying vast amounts of freedom because they have learned what they can and cannot do, or at bare minimum I can at least get their attention if their instincts should kick in at an inappropriate time.
There's a lot of people out there without a lot of knowledge or experience who feel the need to impose judgement and control others based on their own ignorance. Screw em.
Crystal VanAntwerpen if you can’t recall your dog without a ecollar it’s not a hunting dog, so I’m gonna take everything you say with a grain of salt lol. The vet got his points across terribly. I was a user of the e collar, but I stopped because of how it makes me look. It does make you look lazy.. Because the majority of people that use them are lazy, especially when it comes to training their dog. Have you seen how folks use those things? If you go to any of your local dog parks there’s always some asshole who is constantly shocking his dog. Y’all folks that use ecollars as your only way to get your dog to listen to you it’s just sad in my opinion.
Weenie Hut Jr. true if they can’t control their dog using verbal commands than your dog needs better training
@@MikeHawkbaby its not the only way. I just have it on my dog as an option. I only ever use it if i have tried everything else and shes not coming back. Then i tap the low stim and she comes right back to my side
Kiana Olivia I’m not talking about you mam lol I’m talking about people who use their e collars as literally their only option. If you only use it in situations when it is necessary and you keep the ecollar at a vibration/a very low level you’re doing it right and I have nothing against you.
I've trained with Jaime, so biased yes! But was I pro collars 3 years ago? No. Most of us arrive here after eventually having owned previous dogs that were 'easy' or compliant to reward or positive based training. A breeze :) However, we later found ourselves even after working with professional trainers, still getting nowhere, and instead having a dog that was either a danger to themselves, or others! Fortunately with correct, appropriate, welfare minded training and a high quality collar I now have a happy, well behaved dog that I can take anywhere! I was not and am not lazy! In fact the opposite! My dog is full of joy and loving life! Collars, used correctly under the right circumstances with the right support and training are liberating for dog and owner. The vast majority of us would welcome and are in fact campaigning for the necessary changes, such as 'kite' marking to insure only safe, quality collars are available, legislation to insure only qualified, welfare minded trainers are permitted to train us, and a form of licensing required for owners of collars so that they can be monitored. I LOVE DOGS! Please don't just say they are cruel, and we are lazy unless you are prepared to back it up with indisputable facts and experience. Thank you.....
Hey! Is Jamie the name of the trainer? What is his full name if so? I really liked hearing him and I'd like to look up more
@@Salem-jk3th Not sure i you found this already as it has been 3 months but the trainer is Jamie Penrith. This is the link to his youtube channel ua-cam.com/users/taketheleadvideo
I said essentially the same.
So true, during my lifetime I've had 7 beautiful Shelties. All different personalities, but all I trained so easily. I've taken many obedience courses and taught dog agility, but Number 8 broke me. He is extremely high-drive, high-energy, leash-aggressive and his barking is nuts. When he gets in one of his barking "fits" he completely tunes out. I've tried every type of collar, harness, positive enforcement, treats, etc. I finally have him walking (not pulling) on the lead but he still freaks out at trucks, squirrels, other dogs and even birds and planes. People don't know how helpless, desperate and embarrassed you feel with a dog like mine. I'm hoping an e-collar will help.
Also, does this vet realize that people can literally beat their dogs with their bare hands too? Giving them a tiny bit of stimulation to reinforce a command is not abuse. I bet he's never owned a hunting dog lol.
The point of a shock collar is to punish. If it's not painful it's not working. It's cruel
@@jesse564 thats retardedly untrue and you know it lmfao.
@@jesse564 Incorrect. You never punish a dog you correct them and show them what is expected.
@@jesse564 it doesn't hurt, it sends a vibration so you can redirect your dog. You have no idea what an ecollar is.
I adopted a dog that was abandoned as a puppy; THEN adopted by an abusive owner who apparently gave her absolutely no training as a young adult. Her recall was zero and her prey drive is insane. (Husky/GSD mix). The consequence of a tone/vibration/mild shock to me is far better than the consequence of her darting across the road to chase a crow and being mowed down by a car, or fear biting someone and having to be put down...
High drive dogs and dogs that show aggression to livestock/other dogs etc NEED them.
Sometimes a piece of cheese or meat is not enough to tempt some dogs to change their behaviour.
Digs 1 agreed.
All dogs are trained with love,praise,rewards,etc.( I would hope!)whatever the case may be.Then your dog blows you off when its prey drive kicks in ..and no amount of "positive"reward,treat training is gonna stop it from doing something that it finds genetically more rewarding (it was bred to do).
I'd only take issue with the idea that it needs to be bred to find some things more tempting than food and praise.
All dogs are domesticated wolves,only those breeds that have been completely changed and had their instincts to hunt,protect and gain rank all but eliminated are the exception imo.
Exactly you cant "high value reward" a dog when a higher value reward is the chase...seen a apprehension dog that the best thing in the world to him was to bite. a piece of sausage isnt going to get that dog to out...and that dog had game to the point you could pretty much drown him and hed still hang on
@@giovannifassone2377 not many people understand this. They just say people use the collar because they are too lazy to train their dog. Even a very well trained dog has their moments. Id prefer a moment of discomfort for my dog over their death any day
The vet is an absolute nob Ed, and to have a cat lady on board, Christ on a bike 🙄 I have a Vizsla, she is a working hunting dog. Her hunting drive is crazy, as a pup she would run at cattle and horses, not all of the time just sometimes. If she gets kicked she could end up getting seriously injured or even worse than that. I decided to use an e collar, this was used on the lowest of settings that she would let me know, more of a sensation than being shocked to pieces, people don’t understand the collars. It was used for a few months until she knew the score and is no longer needed. No way would I of been able to train her without it. A fantastic tool and now I have an even better hunting partner 👌🏻
It was rather telling that, despite Abraham being passed the E Collar to experience the sensation of the Stim, he vacillated so effectively that James never got around to demonstrating it to him. I suspect that the thought of doing so put him in a great quandary: to experience it at the same level and admit that it felt like no more than a tingle would have destroyed his "cruelty" argument (and god knows, it was the only one he had; he used the word enough), and it would have caused significant Cognitive Dissonance. One can only deduce from this that Mr Abraham was either being disingenuous, or that he has an agenda (or no integrity). Or all three. High quality (E Collar Technologies or Dogtra) E Collars are excellent tools that help save lives and give dogs freedom, when used properly. Tools are not cruel. People are cruel. In recent months, vans have been used as weapons and driven into crowds of people with the express intention of causing pain, distress and fear. Vans are *also* used to transport goods we use in our daily lives - including much-needed blood and organs for emergency transfusions and transplants. Should we therefore ban vans anyway - because a tiny handful of people misuse them?
100% true Dutiful Dogs
@@amberstar5944 u stupid idiot
The one who got shocked it was a 20% shock , most idiot who use these collars have it on max
@@trialsofavirus8749 yes people are stupid. I have only ever put my dogs one up to 5%. I just use it as an extra form of communication
@@trialsofavirus8749 why you know all these idiots do you? I don’t suppose you know a single person personally who uses an e collar.
I bought my dog from one of the top breeder in the nation and the trainer that recommends and has trained 100s of his dogs uses e-collars and everyone I’ve talked to that used that trainer loved the results. I am trying my hardest to train mine and I had to buy a prong collar just to walk him. He pulled and almost choked himself to death and nothing I tried could break his drive to pull. 5 minutes in the prong and he was walking beside me no problem. You have to use what works for your dog and their behavior but you have to accept when you need help and it’s the owners responsibility to make sure the tools are used properly and that the trainer uses them properly!
Horrible. U obviously understand nothing about dogs. That's the problem. U mess up your Willtoplease Doggy with abusive tools. Learn basics about dogs that you lack
man on panel says it is a potentially abusive item - doesn't go on to say it should be banned. Many things used in dog training are potentially abusive - the RSPCA has brought many prosecutions for abuse using other items but never an e-collar.
Rope, chains, knifes, bats, boards, cars.... All of these are potentially abusive.
The vet appears to have no manners and seems to have a very rigid opinion, I find that disturbing given that they are discussing potentially saving dogs lives....
This guy doesn’t know what he is taking about. I use an E-collar and I stand by it. Mine runs at 5 to 10 out of 100 and at that level you can hold it against your neck or face and sit on the button. My dog gets excited when I bring out the e-collar. It is used to communicate not to punish. I did go to a trainer so I knew what I was doing but you could easily go on UA-cam to learn.
This is exactly why Veterinarians seek help from Dog Trainers when they have misbehaving dogs. I don't give out medical advice to my clients for pets...stick to what you know, Doc.
“Her gut feeling “ meaning she has no idea
People can be abusive, not the tools! We need to remember that before we will ban e-collars. Some legislation around them yes- license for a trainer, accredited e-collars etc.
Education over ban- let's not take away sometimes maybe the last chance for a dog to run freely.
I do use sometimes e collars in my training ( Mini Educator), I do work in front of my customers- nobody would pay me for hurting their dog, moreover, it was never and won't my intention to hurt any dog. I've spent life-saving them form abuse, finding a home for stray dogs in Polish equivalent of RSPCA as a Field Inspector.
There is no better feeling than dog happily coming to you when called- and you can achieve this with e-collar if conditioned properly, used accordingly to the situation, humanly and with an aim to have a happy, reliable dog!
You can do this without e-collar in a majority of cases, of course, but there some dogs that won't respond to your affection and ham over self-rewarding chasing a deer in a forest.
And only one more thing I would like to add- I do use Postive reinforcement a lot, in my opinion, is the most powerful "tool", for some dogs in conjunction with high-quality e-collar.
It’s amazing how this guy can be a vet and be totally clueless at the same time.
It is not an area of veterinary expertise. They have no training in behaviour or nutrition. If your dog is sick take it to a vet. Outside of that they're useless.
@@jmas1219 As a trainer for 12 years who's mostly worked with abused and rescue dogs, I've never needed an electric or shock collar for a dog. I can understand using them for a short time during a transitional period when you've no other choice, but if you know what you're doing as a trainer, you and your client will find they're unnecessary.
The vet was right... train your dog stop being lazy
Maria B
No dog needs a SHOCK collar that lazy
A vibration is fine. Shut up and mind your own business it’s clear you don’t if you don’t know that stupid
Maria B
Wow you’re obviously uneducated you think police dogs are the most trained dogs 😂 you’re absolutely stupid why are you speaking on something you have no idea about...
Learn how to read if you knew about dogs you’d know you just can’t put a shock collar on every dog and shock them when they do something you don’t like... they need human interaction, commands, and sounds....
read a book
You’re just mad cause that’s your only resort of dog training and I’m threatening it. In the right hands of professionals knowing how to actually use a VIBRATION COLLAR as a tap to get dogs attention is fine. But for the majority of people that use SHOCK collars like you just put it on their dogs and use it to stop them from doing EVERYTHING because they are too lazy to train the behavior out of them
The vet doesn’t metion or talk about rescue dogs. Some of these have been truamatized beyond belief, have never been socialized, are aggressive, bite other dogs and people, etc…the list goes on. I have paid thousands over the years for professioanl training for these dogs, some have not responded to their help and training techniques. I finally purchased a “shock” collar (used on one of the lowest settings), was trained on how to use it. These collars have been life changing. I was told over again to have these dogs put down, they couldn’t be fixed. Wrong! Can’t say enough about them, as long as they are used correctly and responsibly!
Nobody will ever understand E-collars until they have used them. It is an amazing tool if USED CORRECTLY. My dogs love training and love the fact that hey are off leash and totally in control. Tails are wagging and very happy. People that are against E-collars have never taken the time to study them nor have interest in them, they just assume that owners are shocking dogs and hurting them. Very uninformed and clueless as to the benefits of having one. All i know is that i will always train any dog i own with one. I have had dogs trained without and there is no comparison at all, and yes I know how to train dogs.
This is an argument that will not be solved until people do some research and not just go by what they hear from only pro positive trainers.
If you aren't able getting obedience and orientation without abusive bullshit you definitely don't know anything about dogtraining. 😉
@@saarlooswolfhund6237 Like i said, once you see how your dog is when using one, you will then understand. The freedom a dog gets being off leash in total control is something many owners have never experienced. If you tell me that a dog off leash wagging his tail enjoying his freedom is a dog that is abused, we are living in different worlds my friend.
Careful not to let your dog off leash, he may bolt into traffic or run after a cat or kid.
Do some research and learn something new for once, your dog will love you for it.
When used correctly, e-collars take training to a new level. Just like a leash can be used to communicate with your dog, so can an e-collar. What makes an e-collar so great is that you don’t have to be physically connected to your dog like you are with a leash. That allows dogs to, once properly trained, go off leash and run around more while still being able to receive communication from the owner. I think most people who are against e-collars would be very surprised how low of a level of stimulation is needed.
Ecollar bullshit is fortunately banned in civilized societies. Learn basics about dogs that you lack
@SaarloosWolfhund
Hello. I am a student of the only nationally accredited dog behaviour certificate in Australia. It is a year long course that involves several practical and theoretical assessments along with hours of supervised training, and lectures on canine first aid, diet, anatomy and psychology.
Every professional I have come across in this course is aware of the fact that e collars are a scientifically valid application of operant conditioning. They work. Not all of these people use them themselves or would advocate on their behalf (some would, some wouldn’t), but they don’t act as though they are abusive or unnecessary either. I would compare it to professional chefs-some really like working with seafood alone, but that doesn’t mean they think chefs that cook beef or vegetables are evil and misguided. It’s a matter of preference in methodology that is respected among professionals. Now, on the topic of respect and professionalism, your comment isn’t looking so good…
I am not going to pretend I am an exceptionally experienced and knowledgeable dog trainer. But I am currently studying under maybe 6 or 7 knowledgeable and experienced unaffiliated canine professionals, and as you seem to disagree with them for a reason you haven’t made clear, I suggest maybe it is you that needs to do some research, and “learn the basics about dogs that you lack”.
Can I just say the exact arguments everyone is using in the comments for these devices being used is what arguments are now being used to shock disabled kids at the judge Rosenberg facility.
@@hollybock8463 How is it the same?
@@hollybock8463 I highly recommend that, if you ever get the opportunity, put an e-collar on yourself so that you can understand what the lower levels feel like. You can put it on your hand, forearm, neck, wherever. Of course, if you crank it up it’s not going to hurt but low levels don’t hurt at all. It’s a sensation, not a shock. And I understand that probably sounds like I’m playing semantics but it’s true. I would never do anything to hurt my dog and make sure to try it on myself first. I use the mini educator and I can’t feel anything until about a 5. The lowest that she can feel it is at a 4 which is the level she works at inside the house and outside is a 5 and sometimes a 6 if there’s a lot of distraction but I would never go higher than that unless it was a life or death situation. I know there are people who use it higher than that and I don’t agree with causing dogs any kind of pain. But, at the levels I use, it’s the equivalent of a tap on the shoulder up to a medium strength flick. My dog is pretty sensitive in general so it would be very easy to tell if it was affecting her negatively. Yet, every time she sees it come out she gets happy and excited because she pairs it with having fun. I really hope you’re able to try one on yourself one day.
Well done to the trainer for putting the case for when and how a remote collar would be used.
Getting one ordered now
For those who haven't needed to use an e-collar, good for you (genuinely). But for some who have high-drive dogs, positive reinforcement cannot compete with the motivation of chasing livestock. E-collars are the most humane way to address this problem, if used correctly. Like any tool (including a leash) it can be abused. Banning the tool does nothing to stop abuse, and will limit options for those trying to help their dogs and prevent livestock killing and dogs being shot.
If you have a high prey drive dog, then you likely need to make them outdoor dogs. The reality is high prey drive dogs aren't great indoor pets. Why use an e collar when you can fence your dogs in?
@@caz6277 There are low energy dogs in all breeds. You can find a low energy german shepard and a low energy pitbull (I have one). The issue is people do not want to take the time out to vet the dog they choose. If you go to a shelter, find the dog that: (1) isn't barking, (2) isn't running up to see you, (3) will not act aggressive when you choose to approach them. That dog is likely not high energy. People go to a shelter/breeder and always chooses the dog that jumps on them and gives them a bunch of licks. That dog is high energy and now you have a handful. I walk my pitbull 20 to 30 minutes 3 times a day and we longer excursions on the weekend. Does he spend a lot of time sleeping otherwise? Yes. Would I say he has a miserable life? No. He is low energy and doesn't particular want to run around and play all the time.
@@caz6277 I think people focus on positive training, when the real focus is "no force" training (i.e. don't make the dog do things). No force training doesn't preclude, making a dog wait to go outside/ not walking when dog is acting wild etc. I only train my dog through treats and he is fear reactive to people, how did it work training him in a matter of months? Well, it was mainly consistency. I feel regardless of which approach you take, if you cannot be consistent to the point that the dog knows EVERYTIME you say x, y will happen, you aren't going to see results. This includes: 1. taking the dog out at the same time everyday, 2. feeding the dog at the same time everyday, 3. going to sleep at the same time everyday, 4. creating rituals for your problems (i.e. we never let him meet people at the door, we always make him wait, present the people to him with a game, then he can choose to ignore them or interact). Again you have to be consistent. Is it alot of work? Yep, that's why honestly, most people are better off not having dogs.
Totally agree. We have had dogs for over 40 years and always successfully managed their behaviour - until 2 years ago when I got a working cocker spaniel. Very different challenge! She is the first time I have ever felt the need to go to a trainer. She is a fearsome hunter. The best thing that has happened for her welfare is that the trainer has educated me in the use of an e collar. The dog is not yet a finished product but we are well on the way to her being able to live her best life without being a threat to livestock or a danger to herself.
If I was that dog trainer I would have pressed the button on the e-collar as soon as he had it in his hand, because everyone would see that the trainer pressed it and the vet didn't get hurt. Also, can we talk about the fact that this vet is saying that because someone could misuse the tool that it should be banned yet he isn't talking about how there are countless dogs out there walking around with huge scars wrapping around their neck from someone using a flat collar wrong. With his logic we should be banning anything that could cause harm, which by the way is everything, you could beat a dog with a broom but that doesn't mean we should ban brooms. The tool itself isn't abusive it's the hands behind it.
That vet is very ignorant. I know of many dogs saved by ecollars. Their next step was to be put down or taken to the pound to be killed and the ecollar saved them by proper training not shock therapy Fool! There are three modes on ecollars. Beep, vibrate and shock. I never had to go to shock my dog responded to beeps and vibrate only. It's a great tool when a dog is out of control.
Why is it they stack the odds in their favor. More anti remote collar people and only one for the collar. Well done James for maintaining and even composure with those who really know nothing about this tool. What exactly does this vet have to base his findings on? Most of the time its just from the same BS they have read in the inner circle of those opposed to this tool. Why not let the trainer really work a dog right in front of the panel? I'll tell you why. They are afraid of what they will see. A happy dog being trained on a remote collar the right way. I have invited many positive trainers to come watch me and they alwasy deny. Well I'll be in the UK in June and I personally invite anyone on the anti remote collar panel to come and watch me work dogs on remote collars. Sadly I highly doubt they will accept my offer.
Why is a vet giving training advice? I've had experience with this subject as i have rehabilitated a few dogs from pretty shaky pasts. One of the last dogs i adopted (a malinois) had lots of aggression towards a variety of triggers when he came in due to lack of socialization as a young dog (he was 3 to 4YO when he arrived). These weren't fight or flight issues, these were real aggression barriers, to the point that two "positive only" trainers i was working with told me they were unable to defuse his instincts. I spent 18 months trying several different protocols to rehab this dog on.my own and managed to ease some of his triggers, but far from a good standard. I finally gave in and approached a trainer that worked with e-collar. He was able to control the dog in red-level situations within 5 freaking mins. The dog is now heading towards full rehabilitation across the board. That is the power of the e-collar in the right hands, it basically saved this dog from the likelihood of being put down.
The vet was really quite rude and dismissive. It’s a worry to have a vet so closed minded to a tool that has the potential to help many dogs. It’s the person holding the tool that can be cruel not the tool itself. Abuse and cruelty can be administered to an animal with anything, wether it’s a stick, a lead, a halti, or a hammer. Yes I agree regulation is required so people don’t use inferior tools or tools incorrectly but not banning. As for saying if Lucy’s law goes through we won’t have the need for such devices as they will be properly socialized really shows someone who has no real idea. I support Lucy’s Law, but having just registered breeders will not eliminate a dogs natural prey drives or behaviours no matter how well socialized. Puppies often bought at 8 weeks old will have had limited socialization anyway, and still require bringing on in their training and socialization. They don’t just come away with a piece of paper meaning they won’t have behavioural issues and to say otherwise seemed either incredibly naive or stupid.
The trainer was incredibly patient and made a balanced informative and sensible discussion. Brilliant job. And matthew Wright was very fair and handled the debate well.
he was a bit of a wanker to behonest.
The bad press this tool gets is truly astounding. Remote training collars have huge potential to help owners communicate with their dogs so that they can be given more off leash freedom while at the same time being kept safe. It is seriously sad that a few individuals are so convinced everyone only wants to use them to inflict pain and suffering that they are determined to have them banned, no matter what. That attitude says more about them than it does about anything else. As James said, if someone wants to abuse a dog, they don't have to spend money on an expensive eCollar to do so.
❤️
The bad press is not surprising. The Dogs Trust, The Kennel Club, Blue Cross and other big organistions that take the publics money have been using it to fund untruthful and misleading campaigns that talk about electronic remote training collars as barbaric torture devices, and designed to work by causing pain so that the dog acts to avoid pain, which is all untrue, but what does it lead the public, most of whom have never seen an e-collar in use, to believe?On the other hand, the people who use them and know what they can do to benefit dogs and owners are a minority getting on with their own lives and training dogs humanely and efficiently so that they can happily and safely play off lead. These people are not campaigning to stop other people training dogs any other way, nor have they been organized to educate the public in the face of misinformation provided by these big charitable organisations with their well paid executives.We heard from one phone caller who had used the collars, presumably successfully who indicated that the dogs showed no sign of being hurt, and one caller who felt she had successfully trained her dog without an e-collar but so what? What did she know of e-collars? It would be interesting to take that dog and see how it behaved in a field of sheep.
Ecollars saved my dog's life. My dog is people reactive. She was quarantined at animal control because they said she was too aggressive. The only way she would be released is through a rescue only. A rescue ended up picking her up and I adopted her from them. I worked with a bunch of "positive only " trainers and none of them could manager her aggressive reactivity. Ultimately, I knew that if I couldn't find a solution, she would hurt someone or I would be liable for a bite. I worked with an ecollar trainer and my relationship with my dog dramatically changed for the better. I worked with a trainer who follows Larry Krohn's philosophy. He uses ecollars, but he uses them humanely and that is the key.
For people who do not know, unlike in the United States, in the UK they kill many homeless dogs. If the dog isn't "behaviorally fit" or if it's one of the so-called "banned breeds" they have a zero tolerance euthanasia law. No questions asked. I'm happy I don't live under that sort of law here in the U.S. Because if I did, my dog would for certain be dead. Right now, my dog is completely under my control with the use of a LOW stimulation ecollar.
@@thegiantpaperpanda I think the term "shock collar" can be misunderstood. There is a low vibrate that doesn`t hurt the dog but gets it`s attention.
The main issue is that most owners use these collars as the a doggie off button. "My dog is digging in the garden... ZAP! , My dog is sniffing people too intensely....ZAP!" Instead of just bothering to take 10 minutes out of the day and train their dog's. I get not many people have the time to do that but then again maybe a dog is not the right pet for those people.
I have an e-collar for my golden retriever and all I have to do is press the button that makes it beep with her and call her and she immediately comes. Just because you have one of these collars doesn’t mean you have to shock the dog. The collar I have has noise (beep), vibrate, and shock settings, but I only use the noise or vibrate with her (all the vibrate does is make the receiver shake)
These collars are for training, not for being on your dog’s neck all the time. In fact the dog shouldn’t have any collar on at home, especially E-collar because you’re too lazy to call him properly.
The people against E-Collars should take care of a untrained Belgian Malinois. Maybe that would change their minds. Also buying cheap collars is dangerous. More expensive ones, like Dogtra, on the other hand work really well.
I’ve heard of so many people who’ve had dogs with behavioral issues, who sought and went to several different positive only trainers. In most of the extremely difficult cases, those positive only trainers end up giving up and suggesting euthanasia. These same individuals then go to a dog trainer that uses positive as well as aversive methods, and they get wonderful results and are able to resolve the behavioral problem, instead of resorting to euthanasia. So who’s truly lazy between the different trainers (I personally think it’s the ones giving up and suggesting euthanasia just because their personal beliefs and methods aren’t yielding the desired results...)
My dog would have been euthanized. He is stubborn and had been abused, and we tried EVERYTHING before we tried a shock collar. He was uncontrollable. I am smiling as I say this, but he's really a terrible dog and we love him anyway. We keep him because he's good with our grandkids, and I think anyone else would euthanize him.
So true
So true. Hell no never to an Electronic Collar. But killing a dog that chases livestock is completely valid
As a long time owner of a dog training business I've never known a vet who knew anything about dog training. After watching the video I still don't.
And why would anyone ask a cat owner about what tools are appropriate for dog training! How would she know!
People who are adamantly opposed to e-collars form their opinions based strictly on feelings, not reality. Sadly, they usually aren't open-minded enough to even consider another point of view.
Great job that Trainer! And how naive and rude was that vet!
I have worked in dog training and behaviour for over 40 years and I Specialise in aggressive and reactive dogs - so have a wealth of experience with 'challenging dogs'. I DON'T generally use Ecollars in my work, but, if, and it has happened occasionally, I encounter a dog that does not respond to my methods then I would certainly recommend trying an ecollar under the guidance of an EXPERIENCED ecollar trainer. My experience dictates that for most dogs, alternative methods will work effectively. But for some, an ecollar is a more ideal solution.
For live stock chasers for instance, where no other alternative solution is available, or viable, then I think an ecollar is perhaps the ONLY safe permanent solution (under the guidance of an experienced ecollar trainer), which will keep both stock and dog safe.
I don't think ecollars should be on sale to the general public as there is too much room for error and/or accidental or deliberate abuse, but I DO think that ecollars should be available via an experienced dog trainer and that they should be able to supply such tools to dog owners. Once professional training has taken place.
As for the vet in this interview, well, if a vet doesn't understand the symptoms of pain in a dog, then something is very wrong, with that vets experience in my view. And if a vet or anyone else has to resort to speaking OVER someone else then something is very wrong with his manners. He would not be a vet that I would take my dog to if he is incapable of listening.
Overall, I respect this trainer for both his conduct ad knowledge WAY more than that vet, that is for sure.
This trainer is right, I see people everyday who are at their wits end with their dogs behaviour. Dedicated, loving, committed owners, who have tried and failed and need a different kind of help. ALL dogs respond differently to training and to their owners and having a variety of tools and approaches available, is CRUCIAL to helping ALL dogs.
Thank you! Completely agree.
Not agree
@@dynapilot well then fuckoff and keep your opinion to yourself
@Denise You are 100% right.
Incredible how clueless this vet and so many vets are really. I have an amstaff/pit we tried every type of positive reinforcement possible, I was not lazy, I was to the point where he was so reactive towards people, kids, other dogs I thought I was going to have to get rid of him. I had in my head becuase of the rescue that we used that ecollars and pinch collars were an awful thing but we went to a trainer and in 1 day I kid you not this dog completely changed. All he needed was to feel like he wasn't in control and that we as owners were. The ecollar and pinck collar saved my dogs life.
Same, I have a rescue staffy and an e-collar saved her life.
They should really rename them "alpha collars" bc when you use one immediately you are the alpha dog. I recommend them all the time but so many owners are hopeless idiots that would rather complain
@@fuckoff187 THANK YOU, I agree they should be renamed to alpha collar as well - you should start a company with "alpha collars"!!!! Genius Idea!!! ❤
@@fuckoff187 learn basics about dogs that you lack. There have never existed "Alphas" 🤣🤣🤣. E and prong collars are for incompetent people like you
No one can train an animal to come back to their handler 100% of the time especially if the dog is at a distance and is focused on something else. Here’s an analogy that you might understand. A deaf person is about to cross the street so you yell stop there’s a car coming. Of course he can’t hear you so he will continue to cross. But if you were next to him and tapped them with your finger on his shoulder he would stop and turn around and look. This is exactly what I trained my dog to understand. When a dog is focused on something he wants he is completely deaf to anything else around him. If he’s off leash and sees a rabbit or a squirrel and takes off for it he needs to know that I’m watching. The amount of stimulation I use is a kin to an itch. But that itch is enough to make him break his concentration for the squirrel and turn to look for me. Hunters use it all the time to get their dogs to come back to them even at distances of a mile. Maybe instead of banning them out right they should give them out as prescription from dog handler’s once the owner is shown how they should be used. So if you love your dog and want to give him off leash freedom you also have to think about his safety. If you can’t stop him from crossing the road while he’s chasing an animal you’ve done him a disservice. You’ve killed him.
Very nice comment, very clear and the prescription is a very good idea!
Exactly. Or if your slips it's lead, dodges the bus, and kills a cat or small dog, or bites a child. If you can prevent that from happening with a tap on the shoulder, that's a win for everyone.
You see this Vet who clearly is ignorant and motivated by bias misconceptions are exactly the type that get tools band for no good reason. one, its not about being lazy the Remote Collar can't train your dog for you. Two, Its not even a teaching device. The remote collar is simply a behavior reinforcement and communication tool. Its not something you slap on a dog and zap it every time it does something you don't like ... and if you're using it like that save your money and go back to a rolled up newspaper and get your face bit off. Banning things never works it just forces them under ground and reduces proper education
I've always disliked e-collars and electric fences, because my parents used them on my old gsp and didn't use them properly.
the vet is rude and arrogant-that's highly disturbing-but they are both right. 1) the public can't be trusted with a potentially abusive tool, and 2) some behavioral issues can't be solved with positive reinforcement / years of training.
banning ecollars isn't the answer here because that's taking away a potentially useful tool from dog owners who've put in the work and tried every other method. we need a middle-ground solution.
what if we restrict the sale of ecollars to only professional trainers and people who've taken a class on how to use them?
I don't disagree. One thought I had about this is that manufacturers should put a DVD or a link to training tools in the box... something with large print that really gets attention to encourage people to properly use them rather than to just crank it to high to punish the dog. I know some people still won't read or view, but I think it could help spread awareness about proper training. I think part of the problem we have now is the overall lack of knowledge about how to use them properly so instead of spreading information, we knee jerk react and just vilify them and try banning them.
I agree. Why not make e-collars only available through professional trainers? Seems a simple solution.
Both Educator and Dogtra (the highest quality and most popular collars on the market) have training tips and videos on their website.
Here in Germany, ecollars are forbidden by law. It were the old breeding clubs and trainers of working dogs, that came up with the initiative to ban ecollars and prong collars.
Even the police and military are not allowed to use those "tools" and dont want to use them, either way.
Hurting a dog in general is forbidden, since 1933. Mistreating a dog repeatedly gets you in jail for 3 years.
Since the newest "animal welfare laws" from 2011, you may not even put an ecollar on a cow,- Animal welfare has been made part of the german constitution.
Btw: Ecollars are banned in alot of european countries..
@@dunjak111 gottseidank haben zivilisierte Länder diesen Dreck verbannt. Leider nicht zuende gedacht, da Tierquäler Tools nach wie vor verkauft werden dürfen
The vet is a small minded person. E collars save dogs lives. Period. And is only to be used by someone who knows how to use one. They aren’t torture device. It’s a correction. And the lady who owns cats and has no dogs….should talk. “Get a lead, and cal it back?” Very stupid. This is used to save dogs from doing something that will get them killed. It’s responsible. The dog trainer is absolutely correct here.
So, I do have to say, I have been training a puppy using only positive methods. But, I do have to say, my partner and I are very active, and take our dog hiking in the desert every spring/summer. It’s covered in rattle snakes. To train a dog to stay away from a snake with an ecollar, it only takes a few minutes. To train a dog to stay away from the snakes using only positive reenforcement takes several weeks, and could mean a trip to the vet, or death before they are trained. It’s circumstantial, and in the hands of the owner.
Precisely !
Vets use needles to give shots.
No matter how much peanut butter a vet lathers on a wall for the dog, the dog still feels this “pain.”
Shall we ban needles for dogs?
Smh
Kramer Endo Stupid comparison. Is injection is given to vaccinate to dog. It is medical treatment.
Doctors take an oath to do no harm but injections are painful to people. So, doctors should refuse to give patients injections?
Your argument is a fallacy.
oh so well just ignore the fact that over vaccination is actually killing dogs...do no harm my arse...
Kramers point is valid
So now we have anti-vaxxers in the dog world too. 😂
You can't expect a vaccine not to hurt a bit, that's normal.
What's not normal is putting a freaking electric collar around your dog's neck and activate it everytime it does something unacceptable because you don't want the hassle to train it every day. And I don't really care if it doesn't hurt for us humans if we try it because, just like the vet said, we can't compare what WE feel against what dogs feel. So all those "tests" on humans they show us in videos don't really hold any value for me.
At this point don't even get a dog if you don't want to dedicate your time, even for just an hour a day, in dog training.
I like that the vet recommended people should call a behaviourist, because he sure as shit had no clue what he was talking about. Dog training is unicorns and rainbows to this guy. 🤦 Plonker. Jamie did a stellar job, when the vet wasn't being rude.
This panel honestly has no idea about dog training.
I love how they just say “train it to come back”, these people are morons. This is a tool that educates dogs to come back, when used correctly dogs are educated clearly on what the expectations are.
Many things can be dangerous without guidance, alcohol, pesticides, weed killers, pain killers…all of these things need guidance on how to use them responsibly. I find this current state of “everything needs to be positive” is utterly ridiculous and a statement of how our society is at the moment.
That vet is a moron.
I 100% agree with you
Ecollar are the best training tool out there
Yup 100%!!!!
Ecollar aren't good for the dogs
I wouldn't call them the best. They work if other methods don't but i wouldn't call them the best training tool. Treats are significantly better.
You're an absolute moron
E collar are the worst training tool out there.
So train the dog with a leash and treats, then let them off lead, give the recall command, they ignore it and run off in to the road, what now?!? Using the e collar as a tap on the shoulder can solve this.
that's right and trainers know there are times no dog will respond to any recall and an e-collar is the only way. Only people that take their dogs off lead actually get to learn this fact about dogs. The people that are against e-collars are living in a fantasy world.
@@randomcheese1719 Many dog trainers use e-collars on their dogs, but they won't show them to the public. They know it is frowned upon for some reason. That's the image so-called vets and welfare campaigners have created, it's horrible
@@thouartstrong9507 my vet recommended them actually
@@randomcheese1719 you have a smart vet then, not many recommend it, quite to the contrary
Anything can be abusive.....let's say we eat, I got a knife in my hand, I could abuse that, now couldn't I!? Laws must be implemented against the abuse of these professional tools, not against the tools per say. Biased people should not debate these things, there are studies for that! Secondly I am pretty sure the vet and cat lady have no clue under what circumstances are these collars used, they debate something they do not understand. The result of this is, in dogs, and what most people will agree with is that we get dogs what in their character are not dogs anymore, they expect the dog to chase a ball but not a cat or a rabbit, in both cases the behaviour is ignited by the dogs prey drive. Train with responsabillity people, do not let these biased, damaged people use things against us!
Both the trainer and the vet pointed out that we don't know what a dog feels compared with what Mathew felt. It would have been good to have a dog on the show to see how it reacted. Though the phone caller who used one gave a good indication that when used his dogs reacted as though it was just a tap on the shoulder.
The point of a shock collar is to punish. If it's not painful it's not working. It's cruel
@@jesse564 Just not true. Why comment on here to show your ignorance?
@@jesse564 😂😂😂😂
@@jesse564 Some dogs don’t respond to training from multiple professionals & end up being caged for life because they never have a breakthrough. Rare cases but collars can be their last chance at having some freedom & normalcy. There’s a vibrate function on most collars that is often just as effective in training even though it doesn’t cause pain. It’s instant communication to help the dog associate the behavior with being on the naughty activities list. Similar to using the classic clicker tool to reinforce positive behavior instantaneously without delay. Sometimes emotional punishment can be detrimental to a dog too but I definitely feel you that it’s a touchy subject. It depends on who has the remote. Some screwed up dog owners out there will no doubt misuse shock collars & abuse the dogs with them. But does that mean ban the collar? Hard to say because someone who might misuse the collar that way was probably already hitting/kicking/ shouting at the dog do idk banning the collar would stop them. They might just go back to using their fists. 🤷🏽♀️ I personally wouldn never use one with a shock function but I can respect the fact that some people have them and use the shock feature in emergencies if a dog is running toward traffic or chasing a cat for example. Idk, I wouldn’t put one on my dog but I definitely understand for some dogs it’s the only thing that gives them the ability to be in public and live a full happy life. Difficult subject. No clear answer.
@@jesse564 so getting red pen in school on a bad math answer is painful and abuse? Getting detention and punishment for beating another kid, sending them to the hospital and possibly leaving them in permanent mental scars and trauma not to forget the stress on the other family members is abusive?
Dogs that are mentally unstable mutts with no history that we can find, that are easily controlled by a police officer that keeps the dog from killing someone that they are sent after.
You go “no” to a dog and it puts its ears back and shows its belly and has never been abused or hit once in its life is that abuse?
“We aren’t like dogs” -“vet” actually your right. Our skin is thinner than a dogs thick fur and skin so technically dogs skin is much more durable to e collars and the stimulation compared to your hand in his case.
Agree!
You don’t know how dogs feel
@@skrillawarlock Do you?
I had a husky with a very strong prey drive. When his drive was triggered nothing would break him out of it except the shock collar.
My family refused to use the shock collar. The dog was being walked one day, and he saw a rabbit. He broke free of the dog walker, took off after the rabbit, and was hit by a car and killed. The collars have a purpose.
Very sorry what happened to your dog. However, also remember that a tool doesn't guarantee anything. There are dogs that will blow off Level 100 depending on their state of drive. This is why sometimes people have to resort to using two collars and even wetting their skin and coat in the area around the collars. I've heard about it.
Who else wants to try the collar on bald guy
wish i could like this the amount of times he should be shocked with it
Dog training should have
Yea, 10%.....put the f.in thing on 100% and feel. Dogs do feel just like we do. Far far to many people and so called trainers basically electrocute their dogs
Yeah and put it up to the highest setting
@@DF-te2vm yes people that do this are wrong. I have one for my dog and most of the time its on the vibration setting but the highest i have even gone on static is 5% and she responds very well. I would only ever use a higher setting for safety reasons such as a dog fight or if my dog goes to run on a road. You never know what can happen so it is more of a safety thing for me. You can train a dog really well but there is never a 100% guarantee that they will listen every time. And it only takes one mistake for something bad to happen. People that abhse their dogs with these collars are going to abuse their dog regardless of whether these collars are available or not
One word this vet and most vets don't understand: DRIVE
That's because they talk about dogs and study about dogs. People who are actually in the trenches with dogs are the ones who have to deal with them.
The positive only crowd can't have it both ways ! Some of them advocate certain types of aversive tool (head haltis, halti harnesses, gentle leaders, gencon head collars, dogmatics) are they for lazy people because they're all restrictive in one way or another ? Yet another type of aversive is all kinds of wrong to use. So what some of the "positive only" crowd are saying is it's ok for your dog to receive one type of correction but not another ! Don't be fooled by some of the positive crowd folks, the very moment you use of these so called "kind" tools on your dog that some advocate. You've left the realms of "positive only" training & you're balance training your dog !
you just have to look at the damage harnesses are doing to dogs joints and you dont want to google embedded harnesses it will break your heart
Yes I have seen Tammie the horrific injuries caused by harnesses online & how they can effect a dogs gait. But still it's another tool that has potential to be abusive like any other tool. My dog wears a head halter but it's not under the guise I'm training my dog the force free way. I know my dog is wearing an aversive that I can correct him with & I do correct him. The thing is I love positive reinforcement it's such a huge part of balance training for me but I just do not appreciate the hypocrisy & how they can bend the rules for themselves. Their opinions are often uneducated (as was mine once upon a time) & they've never clapped eyes on a prong or E-Collar just believed the propaganda. I'm 36 yrs old & I'd never seen a prong or E-Collar on a dog until I started balance training back in January this year. I've never seen them since then in anything but a positive light because they're used correctly, I've never seen a dog in any type of pain/discomfort from these tools. My dog doesn't even wear a prong or e-collar because there wasn't the necessity for one as yet in his individual case, it always depends dog to dog but should there be one in the future when I try to proof recall etc I will not hesitate to use one.
Thats what many people dont realise, 98% of training is positive reinforcement, and yes that annoys me when they claim head collars are not not aversive, they bloody are! ive seen one dog collapse because of incorrect use of one (it was a hot day and the dogs mouth was forced shut by it) another was put down because the owner was holding the end of the lead, the dog surged ahead and it turned with such force it damages the dogs spinal column. ive seen pretty much every tool abused. there is no such thing as a tool that cant be abused. i think a lot of dog tools need proper training before use.
Imagine if I trazed you for everything bad you did and you had no idea when the shock was coming....you would be afraid to do anything for fear of getting a random shock.
Gentle leaders and similar don't work through punishment. They work by allowing you to gently redirect a dog's attention by changing the direction their head or body are pointed. This allows their focus to move back to you so that they will listen to the command you're giving. But I do agree-- they're not needed! A flat collar, a leash, a human brain, and some patience are the best tools to teach a dog to walk well on a leash.
Proper e collar use is a game changer for many many dogs. We use a low setting, a tap, to reinforce wanted behavior. Only a higher setting in a dangerous situation. Again, proper use of an e collar, allows more, safe off leash time. It is not cruel or lazy. Get educated about the subject. The cat lady chiming in... my sense is ... really?! 🤦🏽♀️
The vet in this video has a very weak argument but plays on the emotive sentiment of animal lovers who have not needed to ever consider alternative training methods. His answer is keep on a lead and pay for a positive method trainer.... And after that fails? What option is left, drug the dog up or euthanasia! ? While positive reinforcement methods can and should be the primary training method, the fact is it is not always an adequate stimulus for every dog and situation. Dog owners who have found purely positive methods to be ineffective, and as responsible dog owners wanting the best life for their pets, consider alternative methods such as a remote collar. If you have not found yourself in this situation, of course on face value it sounds "unnecessary". When used correctly it works and saves dogs lives. For the sake of these dogs, it would be murder to take away this invaluable training tool!
There's a difference between an e collar and an invisible fence. An e collar is a training tool for owners who (contrary to what this vet says) are actively trying to train their dogs. An invisible fence could be viewed as lazy but don't call them the same thing.
Ecollars and prongcollars are for incompetent trainers and owners. In civilized countries this bullshit is banned
@@saarlooswolfhund6237 I don't use either of them but I would say a prong collar is significantly worse than an e collar
This vet I guess is doing his job but his inability to think from another's perspective is startling. He said something about it's open to abuse... so does he believe that all benefits that are there to potential abuse should be outlawed too? Or what about painkillers and sedatives?
Doing his job? I suppose so as a media personality, probably getting paid for it as well. I have seen the dog trainer from Devon on other similar programs making a spectacle of someone feeling the effects of the e-collar (Funny they all emerge unscathed from "barbaric electrocution") and think that far from being paid he is incurring expenses and giving up time he could be earning his living and helping dogs - he uses e-collars regularly but not exclusively for training dogs and I would trust his judgement of them more than the media vet
Cars can be abused when people don't learn how to use them properly which means there's potential for abuse. Take the cars away.
Ya this vet is a complete moron. A person's bare hands can cause way more abuse to a dog than an e-collar. If we went by the vet's and useless cat lady's logic than we should ban all hands.✋
I have a dog trained on a prong collar that are known for being "cruel" methods of training. My dog gets excited when I put the collar on her. You can turn ANYTHING into a negative training tool. You could put really hard on a normal collar that can cause damage to the trachea. You cant punish 99% of e-collar users to prevent the 1% from abusing them.
You are cruel
Ryan Walsh
Exactly!!!! Too lazy to train the dog to walk correctly on a leash
The dog only gets excited because it knows it’s going for a walk that’s why it has trouble walking because it gets too excited
Actually it’s the 99% abusing because they use it as a way to solve all bad behaviors when they are not for that...
Ryan Walsh
Exactly...
This vet has a large lack of knowledge on how electric shocks work. Its not the voltage level that its using. If you change the frequency as in HZ. It can be at the same voltage level. There is a Electrical engineer on UA-cam called Electroboom who shocks himself for fun every time. In one video he shows him hooked up to a variable amplitude and frequency generator on his tongue with clamps. He then turns it up to a point where it is painful for him then he starts altering the frequency of the charge into the higher Hertz range and at one point its still " shocking " him but he cant feel it. Then he alters it more it he can start to feel it but its no longer uncomfortable. He says it feels like a vibration from a phone. How is this any different then the dog running at full speed due to excitement and reaching the end of the leash or extended leed that people so often use and it " close lines" the dog which lays him out on the ground just from a normal collar. Also just using the word Dog to describe your pet is like saying you own a type of cat and its really a lion. You cant compare the level of resistance to pain of a Bischon Frise to a 1 year old unneutered Rottweiler that has the neck muscles of a bodybuilder and can literally hang his body weight from his neck and not be bothered by it. The ability that the person has to "shock " their dog is no different then European being able to purchase cars that can go much faster then in the United States. Why... why do they need to be able to go 260 kph or more. But the European just say we dont because we obey the traffic laws and it would be wrong.
Okay so apply that thinking to this device. It can be turned up and used inappropriately but set just to the level where the dog notices it .
Like to see these doubters train a working dog to recall at ultra long range or a deaf dog without an e collar... People are far too quick to judge training aids
The vet believes all dogs are the same. I've owned cocapoos and muts that could be trained using all positive training and treat training. We've recently adopted a working line german shepherd and no all positive or treat training could calm her high prey drive and leash reactivity. The ecollar has helped a lot with her recall. If she was to see a rabbit there was no calling her off of it. The ecollar has prevented her from running on to busy roads a few times now.
Arguing with a fool is pointless and maddening. The vet is that said fool
So basically, the guy that opposes e- collar his only argument is: Using e-collar leave people open to abusing dogs.
Cars and guns can be abused as well. So what are you gonna do outlaw every single thing that has the potential to be abused.
Positive reinforcement is great at helping teach dogs what to do. But its not great at teaching dogs what not to do. Dogs will 99% of the time choose to do what benefits them most at that point in time. Ecollar training gives people the confidence that if the dog chooses to ignore them, then they have a back up which tells the dog, "Hey, I may be 100m away but i can still touch you" since when used correctly the ecollar feels like a tapping sensation.
I use positive reinforcement to teach the basics and tricks. But if my Newfie pup gets it in his head that he wants to do something, he's going to try to do it. Sometimes the only thing that gets through to him is a negative response from me. Chase the cats? You go outside (he hates being outside). There is a consequence for that action. I don't care if it's just playing. He's 100lbs and only 7 months old. He can hurt the cats easily just pawing at them. I've also got a big tom that hates his guts, isn't afraid of him, but he insists on trying to be friends with. That cat has attacked him twice, and I don't blame the cat one bit, but I don't want my pup to lose an eye either. You'd think getting the claws would deter him, but nope. He just barks and pisses the cat off more.
So it's "No kitty. Outside." If he leaves the cats alone, he gets a treat and a good boy. If he doesnt he goes outside to think about life for awhile. He hates being outside, so it's working. I won't rule out an e-collar though, if it means keeping him and my cats safe from his ridiculously large self. I suspect he'll grow out of it. He's very good friends with 3 of my cats and they treat him like he's some weird, dumb, giant cat toddler. 😆 The other three... different story.
The vet has a closed mind. By his logic we should ban sticks because they could be used to hurt a dog. The effective settings for dogs are just a tingle feeling to get their attention from a distance. There is no pain involved. These collars are just another tool in the training aresenal. The lady in the video with cats has also made up her mind without knowing the facts.
Ecollars are amazing tools!! The vet is being rude.
The trainer is extremely patient!!
Silly debate - apples and oranges... All the tools used to train dogs can be used to the point of abuse. Cages, leashes, collars....
treats....
You call applying a zap 'electrocution'? Electrocution means killing by electricity. Look up the word. You're a vet? Scary
E collars, prong collars/pinch collars, choke chains are wonderful tools when used properly. These training devices don’t train dogs! Training trains your dog’s. Let’s be realistic here, E collars can and will save dogs lives when you utilize them properly. When misused they’re torture devices and a complete disservice to any dog. Quality of devices is imperative when training. Dogtra, Martin Systems, Garmin, E technologies these are all dependable and affordable brands. When purchasing any quality e collars be prepared to pay a minimum of two hundred dollars. Shock collar or electric collar are not comfortable terms in society but I will assure you they’re neither of those. They’re exactly like a tense machine, which stimulates muscles tissue. I will always fight for the rights of these tools, because they are incredible tools then again they must be respected and trained on low levels until the dog understands what that sensation means. Clarity is paramount in dog training, its the key to success and these tools are intended for that purpose. If you know what you’re doing with these tools they can do so much more than just being a correction or an aversive consequence to a dog. Like anything in general, they can be beneficial in your training or they can seriously mess up your dog. Please stop doing that to such beautiful creatures. That being said DO NOT purchase these dog training devices if you’re not willing to take the time to throughly learn and understand the Do’s & Dont’s when using them. Be better, do better. Dog’s deserve that much. Balanced Training 💯🐕♥️
A badly used collar and leash is far more damaging. Education is the way forward for the public. Dogs are put to sleep by rescue organisations that could be saved using a collar
Imagine being in your apartment building scared to go in the elevator or down the stairs because your dog will freak out and lunge at another dog. Your stressed. You spend hours and months on positive reinforcement with little improvement. The people in the apartment are scared of your dog now. Your worried about getting kicked out. Then your vet suggest anxiety medicine for your dog. You think training is going to help that? No, the dog trainer was right. Sometimes, there's nothing else that can be done. Your et the end of your rope. You've spent time, money and energy trying to fix your dogs behavious but unfortunately, because the dog becomes in so close proximity to other dogs, there's no amount of treats or attention that will distract your dog from not going over the edge.
The trainer is like *am I going to get a response?*
The body resistance of dogs is different than that of humans… feeling the shock for yourself, saying “it’s very mild” is very useless… also, psychologically it’s very destructive to train a dog to expect something negative all the time. It’s a recipe for ptsd
Yep, not to mention the fact that the average "trainer" and member of the public forgets or is unaware of the fact that how much of a shock the dog receives can vary from one day to another on the same setting just by virtue of how much moisture there is in the air or in the dogs coat. I dont see a problem with a vibration, but an electrical shock is abuse, end of story.
Not if used correctly. As for your "body resistance" argument, I agree that it differs between dogs and humans. My dog will pull so hard on his leash (with a regular collar) that he is crushing his trachea and can't breathe. I could never tolerate that. I CAN tolerate the e-collar, on a low setting, on my neck. So that's what my dog gets when he charges other dogs or people. Shock collar training does not train the dog to "expect something negative" all the time. My dog only gets shocked when he is endangering himself or others (which is rare). He sure doesn't have PTSD, nor does he fear me, because he wants to be with me ALL the time! 😃
Who the hell trains their dog to "expect something negative all the time." People (like me) who use e-collars are using positive reinforcement 99% of the time.