While the conception part is... what it is (I like to think the Garou parent mated in Lupus form at their most feral mindset), the concept of a werewolf that is born as a wolf is interesting, especially when they go through their first change to a more human form.
Keep in mind that a lot of these werewolves are born as wolves and taking a human form is unnatural to them. They act and think like wolves and are far more likely to want to mate with a fellow wolf than a human.
I used to love Werewolf the Apocalypse Second and Revised (third) edition. I never played first edition, so it may have been different then, but with shapeshifting it is true that you only made one roll, but I believe you would need to get a number of successes equal to the number of forms between the form you were currently in and the form you were trying to change into. Otherwise you would shift into a different form and try again on your next action. You could also instantly shift into your breed form or spend a point of Rage to instantly change into any form you wanted. you could also, with GM's discretion, spend a point of willpower to partially shift, so you could grow claws or have wolf senses while in human form, for example.
Just one correction: while having a Garou parent increases the chance of the child being a Garou, they can also be born from normal humans/wolves. Also you start at rank 1, not rank 0.
We usually start the game with characters already integrated, in some degree, in their supernatural society. I like to play the embrace too. For werewolves don't make sense (to me) to give rank 1 to someone just because this person has survived first change. I would insist in some training period, and a proper ritual of passage to reach rank 1. What would imply that those young garrou past first change who have not yet properly entered society would count as rank 0. Complicating the interactions between young werewolves. Since there are some werewolves born in battle form, who cannot logically interact in human society. And probably speak garrou as first language. But that is a important part of what makes this game setting interesting to me. This people, who are the core stone of garrou culture. By logical necessity. Are also the ones who must endure the heavy social stigma of being wrong garrou. Product of violation, and corrupt by default.
I understand the particular flavour of this setting is not your cup of tea, exactly, Mr Zigmenthotep. That is perhaps the easiest thing to change, when you narrate a story, of course, but there is something depressing about the setting, if we play it as it is intended by White Wolf. Is perfectly possible to make it comedy, or epic fantasy, and totally forget the "World of Darkness" undertone, but I am not the first one making that observation in this list of comments. About the differences between games, Vampire is way simpler than Werewolf, I think. To explain the basic for someone who never played RPG and start playing takes no time at all. Werewolf is complicate. Mage is, something else. One huge difference in the feeling of playing with a werewolf, instead of with a vampire, is the shared goals. In a sense it is a bit more like Dungeons and Dragons (one may not use that, but the potential is there). Strong and complex as the conflicts between PCs and their factions may be, there is a war happening, a sacred war, existence itself is in danger. And we all are fighting for it, in the front lines. In the same side of that war. Therefore, there is a HUGE pressure for put differences aside and help each other. When things became tense. You don't go up in status (and power, mostly) unless you play your role in your pack properly. That makes the game a lot different from Vampire the Masquerade. Vampires are supposed to be selfish to the core, and betray each other at every chance, there is no common goal (unless you force one in the game as Narrator, on purpose). Werewolves do have their differences but first and foremost they are supposed to be altruistic people fighting for something bigger than themselves. Knowing they may need to sacrifice themselves, everything, in the most extreme way imaginable: for the greater good (in the most Epic sense possible of "Greater Good"). From that angle, Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalipse could not be more different games. I jus disagree with you in that particular. This is a great video and was very pleasant to watch it. Thank you.
Vampire calls out to players to fight the darkness. Survival and profit are goals, but the real prize is not to let your character become a cynical, paranoid chess player like the elders. To get out from under the elders' thumb, break the chains of the past, triumph over the Beast, and stay human in the ways that matter. To be good in an evil world, to have friends in an unfriendly world. To know the most likely result is to be ashed or fall to the Dark Side, and to keep trying anyway. To win the game by transcending the seemingly inevitable result of playing. Werewolf has a similar thing in that werewolves have been at war with themselves multiple times. Those who came before lost the plot and fell to petty squabbling. Those who live now must deal with the consequences of their forebears' mistakes, refuse to make those mistakes themselves, keep their humanity (or luposity, I suppose) in the face of the inner horror of the Beast within themselves and the outer horror of the war to end reality, AND still find a way to win that war. To know that the most likely result is a messy death and to keep trying anyway. To win the game by transcending the seemingly inevitable result of playing. For me the major divergence is the emphasis on conscience and self-control. Werewolf basically screws itself here. The book says Rage is a terrible problem, and the Beast is an internal devil that must be fought but can never be truly mastered. This would make for interesting play, except for what it does next: it specifically tells players they are the good guys in a holy war, gives them combat stats roughly equal to a tornado full of chainsaws, and turns them loose against legions of disposable goblins. There's basically neither cost nor consequence for going Super Saiyan at the first sign of trouble. Indeed it is typically lauded. We are told we're monsters but we feel more like superheroes. The majority of campaigns never even try to confront the monster within because we are straight-up told the monster without is unimaginably worse. On the other hand, Vampire specifically tells players they are monsters, gives them many abilities whose costs can only be paid by monstrous acts, and tells them to stay human despite that. Without the convenient external punching bag, vampires are forced to deal with what they are. Or they ought to be. Of course, most campaigns still miss the point and try to be Blade fanfic. But the emphasis is very much there.
Well,@@Maladjester, from the point of view of your average human being both vampires and werewolves are monsters. Neither of those games have us playing from that point of view. Vampire puts us as part of a society that is, by its nature. dependent of human society. You have degrees of masquerade, going from Toreador to Nosferatu (in the Camarilla) but no one is actually human. In some degree, all vampires need to stablish relationships based in reality (and their basic reality is that they are not, never will be again, human). But they need keep pretending, as well, to be "human" in some level. Least as long as they don't find a moral system viable for them that isn't based in lie. Werewolves in that sense are completely another thing. They are not former humans who became something else. And what they are is not dependent on humanity (not more than it is dependent on biological wolves). They are their own thing, have their own culture, and their nations are older than ours. They have a LANGUAGE that is inherited by blood. And they have a purpose in existence that is greater than their individual selfish interests, and even greater than their specie. Vampires are purely selfish, to the core. You can do something different, but that will be a eccentricity. Werewolves are spiritual soldiers. Selfless to the core (like soldiers, by definition, must be: archetypically). They are very much NOT fighting for humanity, to safe children, or for the American Way of Life. They can do those things when they have time to spare, but that's not their reason for exist. They are fighting for something that, from their point of view, is more fundamental and that is necessary for any of those things to be possible as an option. Humanity could be extinct or fall back to Paleolitic Diet, and way of life, 24/7. By itself that would change little, could be good or bad, from werewolf point of view. Depending on the spiritual effects of it. In the end, both vampires and werewolves can betray what they are. With or without good reason. Neither of then deserves to be reduced to the image human society would have of them, if human society knew all about their existence and contingencies.
@@thiagom8478 I disagree that vampires have no capacity for good. "Pure selfishness" would mean that a newborn vampire would immediately eat their friends and family and feel neither restraint beforehand nor guilt afterwards. If your only concern is how to get rid of the bodies.....I don't like to tell people they're playing it wrong, but that's playing it wrong. The oldest vampires got by in conditions most humans today couldn't survive. Hiding in the woods outside ancient villages, that kind of thing. Gangrel and Nosferatu have reasonable potential for surviving without humans as long as there's something around with blood in it. Any clan with Animalism can call dinner to itself. Brujah can kill animals with their speed and strength. Other options exist. Conversely, at least some homid werewolves are woefully inequipped to function without civilization. I recall the drug-addled couch-surfer a friend of mine played in my game. Wouldn't have lasted a week if it all went away, superpowers or not. It isn't a hard line. This is kind of a moot point anyway, as almost no campaign features the total annihilation of human society. Even a buddy of mine's game, the theme of which was "the Apocalypse is NOW, bitches, ready or not" and which featured volcanoes, nuclear war, and so forth, did not remove all human support structures.
I didn't explained myself well,@@Maladjester, because you didn't understood what I was saying. And we are both well intended in our communication. I am not saying that every single vampire, will act selfish, every single time. If they did, I don't think the conclusion would be the behaviour your just described. Selfishness is not necessarily lack of control or sense of perspective. Selfish people are (in principle) as able to delay gratification as altruistic people. What counts as gratification for selfish people is not the same than what counts as gratification for altruistic people. Being able to delay it, whatever it is in which case, has more to do will intelligence and self-discipline that with what motivates your character. The absolutely selfish Architect archetype is still an Architect. In the game for the long run, not to murder people right now. Would be way too easy to be a vampire in a setting where was possible to stay healthy and sane without drinking human blood (or people's blood, when there are non-human species of people in the setting). No moral dilema left for vampiric condition. I have no problem saying you are playing it "wrong" (as long as I make clear that "wrong" in this particular case would mean with weak internal consistency in your Worldbuilding) if you play that way. I am not saying I would refuse an invitation to be a player in your tabletop game, circumstances being right! But yes, vampires who can not drink people's blood destroy the worldbuilding. What makes vampires, vampires, is their need to drink blood from humans. More specifically, the need to hunt humans and assume the risk of killing them in a moment of involuntary lost of control. But, back to the point of selfishness. Vampires are structurally individualistic. In the basic level. You may have (and we do have, in this setting) social structures that contradict that. The bands of Sabbat are, structurally, werewolf packs. Without the deep spiritual aspect, with that mostly replaced by politics. But they are. Same bond between the members of the pack, same disposition to carry on the mission. Dying for it, if necessary. Those are exceptions that highlight the rule. Vampires are selfish. The solitary werewolf who don't care about anything except himself is also a possibility. And also an exception that highlight what the normal way for Champions of Gaya is.
Thank you, I've recently stumbled across this game but character creation seemed daunting. Though not comprehensive as you say this vid helped me wrap my mind around it.
This is where it all began for me and my Sis, though I gotta ask: are you going to address the other Changing Breed Character Creations too? Or just werewolves? I'm genuinely curious 😯
Unfortunatly they are not like the vampires. Vampires have a whole bunch of different goals in they Eternal Nonlife - Knoledge, Power, Humanity. Werewolves only have one - Protect Mother Nature from Wyrm and evil stupid humans. Except the ones who chose the opposite - to help Wyrm destroy Nature (I mean Gaia) sooner - not that different come to think about it. Although I like how you still could choose very different approaches to that goal depending on your Tribe and... Moon Phase. But maybe I get this conception wrong.
WTS. Why are showing people how to make a 1st ed character? And its bone gnawer, not gnasher. They just released 5th ed. But 2nd or 20th anniversary are the most popular.
I’d like to make a hunter the Reckoning party with a Werwolf, and a Fey in it. I’d make an interesting group of weirdos, so many furry and Warhammer jokes.
This was poorly researched, you used a misprinted copy of the First Edition rules from over 30 years ago, and as others have mentioned there are glaring errors in your copy. No one who plays Werewolf the Apocalypse should use this video as a reference.
While the conception part is... what it is (I like to think the Garou parent mated in Lupus form at their most feral mindset), the concept of a werewolf that is born as a wolf is interesting, especially when they go through their first change to a more human form.
Keep in mind that a lot of these werewolves are born as wolves and taking a human form is unnatural to them. They act and think like wolves and are far more likely to want to mate with a fellow wolf than a human.
I'm glad you straightened out the "fetish" term. You wouldn't want your character to feel like a weirdo when he mates with dogs.
Only one kind of self-respecting werewolves mates with dogs, Sir. One tribe. And I do love them but the "self-respecting" part is open for debate.
Character The Making is such an underrated joke!
I used to love Werewolf the Apocalypse Second and Revised (third) edition. I never played first edition, so it may have been different then, but with shapeshifting it is true that you only made one roll, but I believe you would need to get a number of successes equal to the number of forms between the form you were currently in and the form you were trying to change into. Otherwise you would shift into a different form and try again on your next action. You could also instantly shift into your breed form or spend a point of Rage to instantly change into any form you wanted. you could also, with GM's discretion, spend a point of willpower to partially shift, so you could grow claws or have wolf senses while in human form, for example.
Just one correction: while having a Garou parent increases the chance of the child being a Garou, they can also be born from normal humans/wolves. Also you start at rank 1, not rank 0.
We usually start the game with characters already integrated, in some degree, in their supernatural society. I like to play the embrace too. For werewolves don't make sense (to me) to give rank 1 to someone just because this person has survived first change. I would insist in some training period, and a proper ritual of passage to reach rank 1. What would imply that those young garrou past first change who have not yet properly entered society would count as rank 0.
Complicating the interactions between young werewolves. Since there are some werewolves born in battle form, who cannot logically interact in human society. And probably speak garrou as first language.
But that is a important part of what makes this game setting interesting to me. This people, who are the core stone of garrou culture. By logical necessity. Are also the ones who must endure the heavy social stigma of being wrong garrou. Product of violation, and corrupt by default.
My werewolf games are very hard-core and very little sad and broody which is my players style of play. So the brooding is optional.
I understand the particular flavour of this setting is not your cup of tea, exactly, Mr Zigmenthotep. That is perhaps the easiest thing to change, when you narrate a story, of course, but there is something depressing about the setting, if we play it as it is intended by White Wolf. Is perfectly possible to make it comedy, or epic fantasy, and totally forget the "World of Darkness" undertone, but I am not the first one making that observation in this list of comments.
About the differences between games, Vampire is way simpler than Werewolf, I think. To explain the basic for someone who never played RPG and start playing takes no time at all. Werewolf is complicate. Mage is, something else.
One huge difference in the feeling of playing with a werewolf, instead of with a vampire, is the shared goals. In a sense it is a bit more like Dungeons and Dragons (one may not use that, but the potential is there). Strong and complex as the conflicts between PCs and their factions may be, there is a war happening, a sacred war, existence itself is in danger. And we all are fighting for it, in the front lines. In the same side of that war.
Therefore, there is a HUGE pressure for put differences aside and help each other. When things became tense.
You don't go up in status (and power, mostly) unless you play your role in your pack properly. That makes the game a lot different from Vampire the Masquerade. Vampires are supposed to be selfish to the core, and betray each other at every chance, there is no common goal (unless you force one in the game as Narrator, on purpose). Werewolves do have their differences but first and foremost they are supposed to be altruistic people fighting for something bigger than themselves. Knowing they may need to sacrifice themselves, everything, in the most extreme way imaginable: for the greater good (in the most Epic sense possible of "Greater Good").
From that angle, Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalipse could not be more different games.
I jus disagree with you in that particular. This is a great video and was very pleasant to watch it. Thank you.
A well made comment that I fully agree with.
Vampire calls out to players to fight the darkness. Survival and profit are goals, but the real prize is not to let your character become a cynical, paranoid chess player like the elders. To get out from under the elders' thumb, break the chains of the past, triumph over the Beast, and stay human in the ways that matter. To be good in an evil world, to have friends in an unfriendly world. To know the most likely result is to be ashed or fall to the Dark Side, and to keep trying anyway. To win the game by transcending the seemingly inevitable result of playing.
Werewolf has a similar thing in that werewolves have been at war with themselves multiple times. Those who came before lost the plot and fell to petty squabbling. Those who live now must deal with the consequences of their forebears' mistakes, refuse to make those mistakes themselves, keep their humanity (or luposity, I suppose) in the face of the inner horror of the Beast within themselves and the outer horror of the war to end reality, AND still find a way to win that war. To know that the most likely result is a messy death and to keep trying anyway. To win the game by transcending the seemingly inevitable result of playing.
For me the major divergence is the emphasis on conscience and self-control. Werewolf basically screws itself here. The book says Rage is a terrible problem, and the Beast is an internal devil that must be fought but can never be truly mastered. This would make for interesting play, except for what it does next: it specifically tells players they are the good guys in a holy war, gives them combat stats roughly equal to a tornado full of chainsaws, and turns them loose against legions of disposable goblins. There's basically neither cost nor consequence for going Super Saiyan at the first sign of trouble. Indeed it is typically lauded. We are told we're monsters but we feel more like superheroes. The majority of campaigns never even try to confront the monster within because we are straight-up told the monster without is unimaginably worse.
On the other hand, Vampire specifically tells players they are monsters, gives them many abilities whose costs can only be paid by monstrous acts, and tells them to stay human despite that. Without the convenient external punching bag, vampires are forced to deal with what they are. Or they ought to be. Of course, most campaigns still miss the point and try to be Blade fanfic. But the emphasis is very much there.
Well,@@Maladjester, from the point of view of your average human being both vampires and werewolves are monsters. Neither of those games have us playing from that point of view.
Vampire puts us as part of a society that is, by its nature. dependent of human society. You have degrees of masquerade, going from Toreador to Nosferatu (in the Camarilla) but no one is actually human. In some degree, all vampires need to stablish relationships based in reality (and their basic reality is that they are not, never will be again, human). But they need keep pretending, as well, to be "human" in some level. Least as long as they don't find a moral system viable for them that isn't based in lie.
Werewolves in that sense are completely another thing. They are not former humans who became something else. And what they are is not dependent on humanity (not more than it is dependent on biological wolves). They are their own thing, have their own culture, and their nations are older than ours. They have a LANGUAGE that is inherited by blood. And they have a purpose in existence that is greater than their individual selfish interests, and even greater than their specie.
Vampires are purely selfish, to the core. You can do something different, but that will be a eccentricity.
Werewolves are spiritual soldiers. Selfless to the core (like soldiers, by definition, must be: archetypically). They are very much NOT fighting for humanity, to safe children, or for the American Way of Life. They can do those things when they have time to spare, but that's not their reason for exist. They are fighting for something that, from their point of view, is more fundamental and that is necessary for any of those things to be possible as an option.
Humanity could be extinct or fall back to Paleolitic Diet, and way of life, 24/7. By itself that would change little, could be good or bad, from werewolf point of view. Depending on the spiritual effects of it.
In the end, both vampires and werewolves can betray what they are. With or without good reason.
Neither of then deserves to be reduced to the image human society would have of them, if human society knew all about their existence and contingencies.
@@thiagom8478 I disagree that vampires have no capacity for good. "Pure selfishness" would mean that a newborn vampire would immediately eat their friends and family and feel neither restraint beforehand nor guilt afterwards. If your only concern is how to get rid of the bodies.....I don't like to tell people they're playing it wrong, but that's playing it wrong.
The oldest vampires got by in conditions most humans today couldn't survive. Hiding in the woods outside ancient villages, that kind of thing. Gangrel and Nosferatu have reasonable potential for surviving without humans as long as there's something around with blood in it. Any clan with Animalism can call dinner to itself. Brujah can kill animals with their speed and strength. Other options exist. Conversely, at least some homid werewolves are woefully inequipped to function without civilization. I recall the drug-addled couch-surfer a friend of mine played in my game. Wouldn't have lasted a week if it all went away, superpowers or not. It isn't a hard line. This is kind of a moot point anyway, as almost no campaign features the total annihilation of human society. Even a buddy of mine's game, the theme of which was "the Apocalypse is NOW, bitches, ready or not" and which featured volcanoes, nuclear war, and so forth, did not remove all human support structures.
I didn't explained myself well,@@Maladjester, because you didn't understood what I was saying. And we are both well intended in our communication. I am not saying that every single vampire, will act selfish, every single time. If they did, I don't think the conclusion would be the behaviour your just described. Selfishness is not necessarily lack of control or sense of perspective. Selfish people are (in principle) as able to delay gratification as altruistic people.
What counts as gratification for selfish people is not the same than what counts as gratification for altruistic people. Being able to delay it, whatever it is in which case, has more to do will intelligence and self-discipline that with what motivates your character. The absolutely selfish Architect archetype is still an Architect. In the game for the long run, not to murder people right now.
Would be way too easy to be a vampire in a setting where was possible to stay healthy and sane without drinking human blood (or people's blood, when there are non-human species of people in the setting). No moral dilema left for vampiric condition. I have no problem saying you are playing it "wrong" (as long as I make clear that "wrong" in this particular case would mean with weak internal consistency in your Worldbuilding) if you play that way. I am not saying I would refuse an invitation to be a player in your tabletop game, circumstances being right! But yes, vampires who can not drink people's blood destroy the worldbuilding.
What makes vampires, vampires, is their need to drink blood from humans. More specifically, the need to hunt humans and assume the risk of killing them in a moment of involuntary lost of control.
But, back to the point of selfishness. Vampires are structurally individualistic. In the basic level. You may have (and we do have, in this setting) social structures that contradict that. The bands of Sabbat are, structurally, werewolf packs. Without the deep spiritual aspect, with that mostly replaced by politics. But they are. Same bond between the members of the pack, same disposition to carry on the mission. Dying for it, if necessary.
Those are exceptions that highlight the rule. Vampires are selfish.
The solitary werewolf who don't care about anything except himself is also a possibility. And also an exception that highlight what the normal way for Champions of Gaya is.
Thank you, I've recently stumbled across this game but character creation seemed daunting. Though not comprehensive as you say this vid helped me wrap my mind around it.
Please do Mage: the Ascension or Ars Magica! They're both such dense games and seeing this channel doing them would be stellar.
Which of the two would you recommend and why if you would be so kind?
Thank you, mysterious D10.
Omg! First edition... *growns in pain* it hurts.. not math for Renown... and so many thinks needing rework..
5:41 Hey, you're the one that picked Lupus, you can't blame us for thinking you might have meant the sex kind
Please do mage.
i'll sell what's left of my soul to zig if he does mage
Also Gallards are more Bard in my opinion
This is where it all began for me and my Sis, though I gotta ask: are you going to address the other Changing Breed Character Creations too? Or just werewolves? I'm genuinely curious 😯
ty
World of Darkness!
I wonder if you are going to do the new 5th editions of world of darkness from Renegade Studios.
Unfortunatly they are not like the vampires. Vampires have a whole bunch of different goals in they Eternal Nonlife - Knoledge, Power, Humanity. Werewolves only have one - Protect Mother Nature from Wyrm and evil stupid humans. Except the ones who chose the opposite - to help Wyrm destroy Nature (I mean Gaia) sooner - not that different come to think about it. Although I like how you still could choose very different approaches to that goal depending on your Tribe and... Moon Phase. But maybe I get this conception wrong.
Why do two werewolves offspring have issues?
Do mage it’s really weird
Did you use the First Edition rules? Things are way different in W20 or even Third Edition
WTS. Why are showing people how to make a 1st ed character? And its bone gnawer, not gnasher. They just released 5th ed. But 2nd or 20th anniversary are the most popular.
My guess is that he shows 1st edition to get a baseline. Plus not everyone have played these older editions.
What show/movie does that human faced dog come from?
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978)
@@someVengefulGhost Thanks bruv.
philodox is the judge, law keeper, peacemaker between the pack. bard-warrior are the Galliard which is a gibbous moon
Okay, but Philodox are also literally given the nickname "bard" in the book.
@@zigmenthotep you could look up anyone well know and they would say that galliard are bard. plus i got the update book that say the same
1st edition had some nice rules that changed with the next editions
What version are you using for this character creation?
from the font from the pages, it looks like 2nd ed. [el'sda2].
Less angsty and brooding? Bro, you're playing White Wolf.
I’d like to make a hunter the Reckoning party with a Werwolf, and a Fey in it. I’d make an interesting group of weirdos, so many furry and Warhammer jokes.
Werewolf: The Soap Opera
Looks like first edition. Philodox is judje
167 like
This was poorly researched, you used a misprinted copy of the First Edition rules from over 30 years ago, and as others have mentioned there are glaring errors in your copy. No one who plays Werewolf the Apocalypse should use this video as a reference.
I'm here to learn how to make a character, not hear your opinions on the game. Goodbye.
What opinions were said in this video that made in completely unwatchable?
Y would a lupus have $$$
Galliard is the bard.
OMG Did u ever read what a lupus can & can NOT start with in traits
Your character is 2 years old but has 2 in MEDICINE??