@@starbomber Imean... Eh? They only did it the once, meanwhile they have skunkworks, I'd argue they have the most prestigious collection of plane designs in the world.
"And this... Is a Super-Starfighter that has ascended past a Super-Starfighter.Or we could just call it the Super-Starfighter 2. And this... Is to go... Even further beyond..!" *Screams in German pilot.*
I'd like to point out, in case somebody hasn't already, that the F-104G had a thrust-to-weight ratio at max takeoff load of 0.54. Assuming things scale up linearly, this F-104M would (on paper) have a thrust-to-weight ratio approaching or exceeding 1.0. Meaning that immediately after getting airborne, you could point the nose up +60 degrees with reheat on, climb to altitude in 1 minute (because it's basically a rocket now), then level out, pull the burner, and supercruise to your intercept start, relight the burner to 2 Mach, fire all your AMRAAMs in TWS, then bravely run away to refuel, rearm, and possibly do it all again. Dogfighting ability might be dog water (and standoff not much better), but that sounds to me like an incredibly powerful and dangerous interceptor.
you don't even need a TWR of 1.0 for that.. JA-37 Viggen had a TWR of 0.66, and had a climb rate of 40,000 feet a minute.. and was mach 2.0 capable.. Would be interesting to see that one with a modern take with a more powerful engine, computers etc. It was big and loud though, and they used to fly at below 100 feet at mach 0.95 constantly in the countryside in the 70's and 80's. :D
Care spre deosebire de MiG-21 chiar este un avion care îndeplinește nemijlocit funcția de interceptor. 🙃 Vreau 5, acestea vor fi o măsură relativ ieftină de a intercepta rachete de croazieră.
That F-104G t/w at maximum take off load is wrong though, the maximum of the 104G would be a full outfit of fuel, full missile racks (2x AIM-9), wingtip fuel tanks, and all the bombs it could fit on the pylons
@@Mcsnipe425 You shut your goddamn mouth, the MiG-25 was great! It did exactly what it was designed to do, which was to fly high and fast for cheap. If the soviets wanted it to turn or climb quickly, detect things, carry weapons, be safe to operate, or go more than twenty hours between engine replacements, well then they should have included that in the design brief!
During the celebrations of the 100 years of the Italian air force, the main event was the flight of a still flying 104 Italy would buy this in a heartbeat
There are a couple Italian F104s in private hands in FL that do contract work for NASA. Reportedly there are feats they cam do that few modern aircraft can match and this makes them good test beds for certain conditions NASA wants to try out before they go full scale on am idea.
I still can't process the fact that the year the Soviets were rolling out the Flanker was the same year the Italians were rolling out the Salsa Starfighter
2:35 that was mainly due to user error, the F-104 was notoriously hard to land an required skilled pilots to do so, and it needed to be well maintained. The fresh german crews that had low experience with jets, and experience basically equal to zero when it comes to supersonic jets and their maintenance had big issues when it comes to landing the thing. That is why most of the crashes occurred during landing. It did not help that the landing speed of the F-104 was just barely above it’s stall speed.
I just wanted to say this. Germany had the biggest death toll with the plane yet every other country found it very good, Japan really liked the A variant as far as I know, mainly because they had just the A variant but you know, context is needed which variant. I like the Starfighter as well, in War thunder I tried it once and I was better with it than the A-4E or the A6M Zeros that I mastered almost to a tea.
Another fun fact: The F-104 spawned the development of Lithotripsy machine (i.e ultrasonic kidney stone breaker). Back in 1950-60s as Luftwaffe used the F-104 for a totally opposite mission as intended (low level sprinting strike), they found that the internal structures were literally tearing itself apart. This was traced all the way to rain droplets hammering at supersonic speeds causing minishocks. Dornier (IIRC) built a machine that simulates this to Mach 3 conditions and kinda went.... what if we use it to fix stuff in our body? Thus born Dornier MedTech.
Funnily enough the F-104 holds a special place in my heart, My grandfather while posted in California lost a bet to a F-104 ground crew when he didn't believe the wings were razor sharp. They then proceeded to let him run his finger along the leading edge of the wing. It's fair to say my grandmother wasn't pleased when he came home later that day with a cut finger and a loss of an forgotten amount of money.
D-DONT DISS MY BABY LIKE THAT!!! THE ITALIANS AND ALL THE PILOTS WHO FLEW IT LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and she scored a kill against an F-15 in simulated combat) Also cool modernization (love what you did with the wings) but i always thought if god forbid an F-104EX program ever occured (idk maybe the Italians wanted to push the old girls service life further than 2004) that she would be used as a launch platform for longer range missiles like ALCM's, a glorified missile boat, get up there quick fire off the ALCM and get the hell outta dodge before anything actually capable could come shoot it down.
The Italians despised the Ameritrash supersonic pencil. Had it not been for the Lockheed bribes, they would have never even touched that absolute joke of an "aircraft".
@leobuana7430 JSDF (Japanese-Self-Defense-Force) In this instance it would be the JASDF (Japanese-Air-Self-Defense-Force) Also as far as I am aware they were not bribed, instead Japan adopted it because no other aircraft at the time of its adoption could *maintain* mach 2 which they wanted, as other aircraft could hit mach 2, but only for very short periods.
@@Skykid3307 No, they were most certainly bribed. Last I checked, the actual acquisition officials were looking at the F11F-1F Super Tiger as their airframe of choice before the officials above them were bribed by Lockheed.
Something to consider: Part of the Reason why German F104s suffered higher accident rates is because it was sold to us in the role of a CAS aircraft. That's Close Air Support, on a plane made for Mach 2 Interception, which can barely hold a single ton of bombs. An aircraft which was designed so it would have barely enough lift to land before stalling. How did this happen? Massive bribes from Lockheed.
There's a problem with the bribe theory: literally every major company bribed everyone all the time. It was a prerequisite for getting anyone to take your design seriously. There was evidence this might have influenced some early procurement, but most of it was the acquisition of unnecessary or redundant designs and bad early jet tech. Compared to it's predecessors and contemporaries the Starfighter was unusually good, not uniquely bad. People forget jets from the late 40s-Early 50s were actual garbage, and by the Starfighter they'd realized that, bribes or no, the planes had to actually work or the grift would get caught out.
I actually heard that the aircraft was not a good interceptor and was not used by the U.S. in that role. It was a very short range point fighter that was cheap. I also heard that it was used in the strike role by the Germans because of its speed. However, it obviously never got to do that.
@@russetwolf13 you saying that it was "unusually good" when compared to it's contemporaries proves that your just trolling or have no idea what you are talking about. the F104 in actual combat during the Indo-Pakistan war LOST to it's soviet contemporary in the MiG 21* *of course, the F104 also holds the distinction of being the last US air frame to get into a fight with contemporary soviet aircraft, unlike the F-14 and F-15 which all faced aircraft of the previous generation.
@@themanformerlyknownascomme777 the mig 21 is a much more modern jet then the f104 and it happened that the war was in 1965. Pakistan also only had 12 f104s so they wouldn't see much use considering there is absolutely no chance that they were all operational.
@@russetwolf13I understand that at the time the environment around procurement was less rigorous, but i don't think that removes the culpability of the parties involved, especially given the sociopolitical relationship between Germany and the US at the time, which was still somewhat of a dependency. I understand that the Quality of the F104 is often undersold, but this was decidedly over the line of reason.
Nice. I love the idea of an F-104 retrofit with modern tech. Lockheed tried that with their CL-1200 Lancer. Talking about Starfighters and West-Germany. The man who is to blame for this whole fuck-up was Franz-Joseph Strauss, our Minister of Defense back in the day who got himself in some shady deals with Lockheed to buy the F-104 instead of any other competitor (like the french Mirage for example). The Cherry on top was the decision to not only buy a fleet of good-weather high-altitude Interceptors, but modified them as all-weather fighter-bombers with a higher load than it was optimized for, which ended as you already said in the loss of a third of all airframes and bunch of good pilots.
@@ThePandoraGuy yeah I would have liked to see him incorporate aspects of the Lancer and f16 in this. He was really committed to keeping the silhouette, but that tail is 75% of this aircraft's problem.
Curiously, the Italians did built a heavily upgraded variant of the F-104 - the F-104 ASA/M which was capable of carrying the SARH radar guided AIM-7E/M Sparrow and Selenia Aspide (an improved Italian built AIM-7 variant). In terms of pure Air Interception, it was superior to early F-16 variants which could only carry the short range IR guided AIM-9L Sidewinder. Lockheed themselves built another heavily modified/upgraded prototype variant in the late 1960's - the CL1200 Lancer. The Lancer used modified air intakes (rectangular akin to those on an F-4 Phantom), replaced the mid-mounted trapezoidal wing with a high mounted trapezoidal wing that had Leading Edge Root Extensions (LERX's), and traded the high mount T-tail for a more conventional tail similar to that used on the F-16. FWIW, the idea of mating a high powered ECM kit and a fuel tank is one you might wish to reconsider as the mix is liable to cause the fuel vapor in the tank to explode.
I looked up at the proposed design and it is a dope-ass plane. Slight correction though but it only has lex, similar to early F-5s, not root extensions
@@RTPJu If the missile was launched far away enough, "turning cold" on it and diving down into the lower atmosphere, helps a lot to deplete the energy of the missile. Making it easier for the pilot to "outrun" and evade it. Of course this isnt the case at closer range, especially not with modern missiles. The 1.6 Mach frontline fighters is from the F35 I guess? In combination with the stealth technology, this is sufficient. ;-)
The 104 is a superb example of a focused design that excelled in the role it was made for. It's not a fighter, it's an interceptor. It was built specifically to chase down and destroy Russian bombers before they could get close enough to deliver their nuclear weapons.
Exactly like the Mig-21 was. Pinpoint Interception! Both were topped quickly by Missiles in this purpose thoug! For any other missions whey were very badly suited. And the upgrades made them both heavy with not enough benefits as counterweigth!
Lol. Do you people ever read a book, or just get your info from YT videos? The F-104A was designed as an air superiority fighter. The F-104C was a multi-role fighter bomber. The F-104G was a development of the "C" model. Only the Italian F-104S was a true interceptor.
If I remember correctly the Germans had the big smooth brain idea to take an F-104. A plane meant for high altitude interception missions. And have it do ground attack as well. So part of the reason for such a high accident rate was the fact that they basically told these pilots to try to hit tanks on a flying lawn dart.
That and their "pride" of pilots and neglected advices from Lockheed to really trust instruments rather than senses to fly this thing ! They trustes their "guts", like any proud pilot back then.. and crashed. A Lot. I've met several belgian starfighter pilots and they really trusted instruments to fly it. We didnt lose as much as german did. Our pilots even managed to pull insane stunts with it and broke some records that still hold to these days.
Also it was loaded up with additional gear to perform ground attack by the absolute smooth brain which drove a URANIUM block in a car WITH HIS FAMILY HALFWAY ACROSS GERMANY . It is also a joke that the Free day on his date of death is because of his death
The F-106 would also make an interesting modernization project. For both you'd be looking at engine modernization, computerized engine controls, radar upgraded to something way more modern, and full avionics and weapons system upgrade to handle modern weapons.
@jacobmccandles1767 Yup, and a fast one. It makes you think, once the F22 and F35 have handled the SEAD job, you don't really need stealth. To be fair, the F15, F18, and F16 are probably easier to upgrade to modern specs than the century series fighters but it's nice to daydream.
The aircraft nearly killed Chuck Yeager. Even he could not recover it from a flat spin, even tried deploying a droge chute to pull it out of the spin. There are videos of this incident on the net, he ejected eventually and the plane was lost. A real death trap.
The F-104's wing was also corosive from graphite. Mechanics would mark a circle in pencil around areas to on the wing, and a week later would find a hole straight through the wing.
Revisited gen 3 aircraft and trying to make them into gen 4.5s is actually amazing. I've been interested in this for awhile, as there's artwork from other enthusiasts that visit that topic. They Super Phanton 2 (F-4) was real and is a good revist, but the Tomcat 21 is probably the main inspiration for a lot of the 'revisiting' tropes. Making the Tomcat 21 proposaln Grumman really changed up a few things and was attempting to make the Tomcat comparable to an F-22. You're essentially trying the same thing here, revisiting Gen 2 or Gen 3 designs and forcing them to compete with Gen 4. You should do a whole series on this! Love your content and presentation, love the history details and just all around this is one of the better aviation nerd channels! Keep them coming! It's good to see you again after a couple months
If FIAT could had this hindsight, Italy would STILL be using the F-104 up to this day. Heck, even the SASA variant that they made of the Starfighter was a better Interceptor than the Tornado, according to some of their own pilots.
There’s already an upgraded F-104 that got rid of the T-tail, vastly improved performance, increased the wing area, and was modified to reduce its radar cross section. It was designed by Lockheed, and it’s still in service. …it’s called the U-2
The funny thing is that Lockheed really did have an F-104 derivative - the CL-1200 proposal with more wing was submitted to the competition that resulted in the F-16
extra value F-5 from alabama i like how your naval 104 idea was accompanied by a "successful landing" where it stopped, then pooped its chute. iirc, the 104 combat record is 104 of friendly pilots dead and 1 kidney transplant recipient saved.
Its funny coz the Italians did just that, and even then, the absolutely cracked missile interceptor was still considered outdated despite the modifications done. See: Aeritalia F-104S
Ehhh, not really. The ASA and ASA/M had some notable avionics updates, sure, but they didn't really come with any noteworthy changes to the flight surfaces or the engine.
The italians basically built this, the F104 Asa-m had a built in ECM, a better radar a new engine with more thrust and some minor areodynamic adjustements !
Based on the fact that the F-14' Super Tomcat's upgrade was called the "Attack Super Tomcat", this new Starfighter should be called the "Attack Super Starfighter", aka ASS.
I have a peice of wreckage for my grandfather's F-104, him and his copilot ejected after engine failure then went to the closest bar to get shit faced after the crash before going back to base😂
the thing with the f104g is that it wasnt what germany needed. we needed a do it all plane kinda, but got THIS. the f104 needed 2 engines, if one fails you have others and also fly by wire. maybe add canards for stability...oh wait thats almost a Eurofighter...
Step 1: Upgrade the engine. Step 2: Make it compatible with AMRAAM’s. Possibly even the AIM-174. Step 3: Upgrade the radar, cause god knows it needs it. Step 4: Reinforce the landing gear or something. (From what I’ve read, pilots would need to retract the gear the moment they left the ground to not damage them.) Step 5: ??? Step 6: Profit…?
German here :-D I was an aircraft mechanic for 6 years at the German Navy. The F104 was designed as good weather interceptor. In Germany it was used as a all weather Fighter Bomber Interceptor and Reconnaissance plane. A bit to much. Beside the pilots came from much smaller and slower planes as the F104 was introduced. As well a lot of modifications became implentet by the Germans. Flap disagree BLC and more. Yes we lost a high number of pilots. Beside ... F104 was the most beautiful plane but beside the one which was totally not forgiving and mistake.
Maybe you could do a video modernizing the A-5 Vigilante? I love how the airframe looks, and it’s a shame they put it out of service so soon. I would also love to see if you could re-create its linear bomb bay!
How about crossing it with its ancestor, the F-108 Rapier? Meant as an escort for the XB-70, a lot of its design research went into the Vigilante, and for the most part it looks like a delta-winged variant.
Other modifications (That I would apply with an infinite budget): -Idk change the T tail for a conventional horizontal elevators/horizontal stabilizers? V TAILS? -Re-worked intake -Better canopy, something more like the F16 bubble canopy with less obstructions -Fricken F35 EOTS and JHMCS (Pointless unless stealth is applied or considered) -s t e a l t h t e c h n o l o g y (For frontal RCS at least using angular separators and the V tails mentioned previously and some other stuff) -Multi-functional touch screen (Like F35 because I like funni plen iPad) Now if you read through all that and thought it was a good idea, consider buying the F22/35.
i remember being brought to the channel by the first or second video that blew up. really happy to see how far you've come! super deserved and admirable 😁
I'd love to see something similar with the F-5 airframe. We almost (almost) got the F-20 Tigershark in the 80's to replace the F-5E from the 70's, which itself was a refit of the F-5 from the early 60's. What if the F-20 won over the F-16 in the export market and kept going until today?
Everyone would still get F-16. Way more usable load and space, as well as modernisation potential. F5/F20 is kinda trash, not a bad plane, but not one you would want to build your airforce around or be main hitter for both air and ground targets.
@@alexturnbackthearmy1907the under belly intake was not used in later planes. The dual intake of the F-5 is again the way to go. Even the downward facing intakes ( Concorde) were not adopted on F-35. The flat belly of the F5 is stealth as seen with nighthawk. Make it fat for more internal weapons space.
Good engines (maybe even late WW2 ones that were actually kinda good unlike ones 262 ended up equipped with), maybe some guns that do not feel like you are throwing grenades by hand at enemy plane, and you get almost F-86. Germans even fit radar on few, so maybe better radar too.
Reminds me of the Luftwaffe ICE F4 Phantom modernisation program as interim for the Eurofighter, where they basically put F/A-18 engines and fire control sets and avionics in them. People remember them as just AMRAAM capable but it was much more than that. Then is the RAF modification of F4D Phantoms, with higher thrust Rolls Royce engines/management although the bigger intakes cancelled out any speed improvements, the actual benefit was fuel efficiency and engine reliability, vastly increasing range and hauling capacity in all conditions.
I personally think it would have been cool if you introduced some form of front canards like in the f104g ccv, and if you started the project from the italian f104s, being the most modern variant. In any case, it's a really cool video. Thanks for somewhat redeeming one of my favorite shitty ass planes
Just to make this clear ! The german F 104 pilots were not nazis ! They weren t also bad pilots in particular either! They were given an plane designed for high altitude high speed missions only , and than pretty much told to do the opostie ! Combined with several ill advised modifications and and bad maintance (which admitatly was our fault ) you get a widowmaker ! The F 104 which was a specialized plane , designed to to one job only which it could do well , simply wasn t the multirole fighter corrupt politicans like Josep Strauß (than defense minister of West Germany) forced it to be!
The Germans put a LOT of low-time pilots into the Starfighter, with predictable results. Their maintenance was indeed lousy. All NATO Starfighter operators used the plane for the same missions, in the same weather. It was never a case of using the airplane for things it wasn't originally designed for.
3:30 simple answer is we got a more powerful engine on ours despite never getting training for anything faster than an old aircraft from the war or an F-86
If someone did this to my F-101 I would be so happy. It's in my shed right now all alone and sad. Plus with the F-101 you can have a second guy doing nuclear payloads and a second pair of eyes to carry the second goggles when you launch the genie low to ground under 2 nm on a bandit
10:10 I totally expected a "Switching a single spool after burning turbo jet j79 to my custom twin spool low bypass after burning turbo fan engine is faster than reloading" joke thrown in there lmao
Isnt Mig29 still kinda modern, and only needs better electronics and engines (both of which russia and china have)? Also i dont think they are using mig15`s anymore, there were severe issues with them and mig19`s in 90-2000`s in few countries that still had them due to age (or at least in albania).
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 Yeah I suppose the MiG is relatively modern. Like you said it just needs upgrades (like the F-18). Sukhois are better! I love Sukhois.
The F-104 had a crazy crash rate in the German Air Force for a bunch of reasons. First off, it was super advanced for its time and hard to fly. In the U.S., only the experienced pilots got to handle it. But in Germany? They handed it to rookie pilots fresh out of training who didn’t have the skills to deal with such a tricky jet. Second, Germany didn’t use the F-104 the way it was designed. It was originally meant to be an interceptor, but Germany pushed it into roles like low-level ground attack, which it wasn’t built for. Combine that with tight budgets, bad weather, and maintenance issues, and you’ve got a recipe for disaster.
You got most of this right. Bravo! Keep in mind that the Dutch, Belgians and Canadians all used their Starfighters for the same missions as the Germans, but their accident rates were considerably lower. So it wasn't an issue of using the plane for missions it wasn't designed for.
@@dukeford You do know that other Nations had other Versions? The Canadians for example had the CF-104. A Version made dedicatet for ground attacks. While us germans used the F104 G and this Version was more of a multipurpose fighter with some ground capabiltys.
@@JackNiles-hc8yz Well actually yes but no. They are similar but those changes like the CF104 had in her avionics etz. made her way more stable for ground attacks. Same plane. Different parts. It’s like car series. The Rallye version is still the same car but different parts to make it more off-road capable.
@@DarthLeu Well, that's kind of like the Germans using the M-B seat while everyone else stuck with the C2 seat. Same airframe, different accessory equipment.
The Riccione double attack system was tailor made for it. 1. Two aircraft approach, split wide, and 2. Whichever the enemy flight approaches (call him 1) performs a high speed zoom climb. 3. Whichever the enemy flight doesn't approach (call him 2) , attempts to turn in behind the enemy flight. 4. Aircraft 1, at altitude, slows, and turns, then dives on the enemy tail while accelerating. 5. Enemy normally dives to get away from the reunited pair on their tail. 6. Aircraft 1 and 2 normally use higher speed, and position behind the enemy to shoot down the enemy.
We germans did some crazy stuff with the F-104! Like launch it from a ramp with a Rocket booster, use it as a fighter bomber, fly air shows with it and all of that NOT in a video game xDD
@carlosreyes2954 Insisting on calling random West German pilots Nazis post WWII is distasteful. He made a bad joke, I delivered a bad joke answer. Besides, I doubt the people in those positions were still associating themselves with anything Nazi after world war II. That shit had a deep impact on the German psyche that still gets hammered into you at every stage of school today. For a good reason.
(that is,if you are German. Apparently, no other nation sees the benefit of teaching these lessons to their pupils. A handful of countries be doing an any% dictatorship Speedrun at the moment.)
As a HUUGE (not physically, mind you) F-104 fan i loved this! The starfighter has a bad reputation but actually does have the normal accident ratio. Its timing in the breakthrough moment of military supersonic flight when every design was obsolete the next weekend, its radical looks and misunderstanding of its role and strengths made sure it would remain as a "flying garbage" as you put it. But its nonetheless - at some point of time its stubby little wings carried the whole aerial defence of central europe, and one thing you could argue being facts are: it did its job amazingly given that communism stayed away from its turf, and if the war would have been a reality in the early to mid 70's central europe it most likely would have encountered soviet planes that would have been largely inferior to its design of sustained speed. Edit: i LOVE the new design, the little wing extension on the fore part of the wingroot makes so much sense. Reminded me of F-5E that had the same redesign done from previous models that had a smaller extensions. Also F-5E had a wingspan increase AND this: a coke bottle redesign. The scientist who most likely had funny accent notoced that if the plane has a slim curvy shape to its fuselage at the center of wings it increases the planes peeformance. While F-104 does have a very small feature like that Im not sure if you could have improved that even more? Also, italian S-model added two more aft underbelly fins to its previous one to improve the planes stability and enlarged the air intakes. Im not sure if this inspires you at all but just FYI
I met someone that had served in the german Luftwaffe in that time. He had sat in F-104s at the end of the runway, armed up, ready to take off instantly should the russians launch a strike. He told us they had never drunk so much as in that time. Because it did not matter. When you got the order to start, it did not matter whether you got off the ground, could fly your mission. In any case, when you returned, your country and all in it would have been turned into radioactive dust. He also told other more F-104-related points. Up to the introduction of the F-104, the german Luftwaffe had flown planes like the F-86 and the Fiat G-91. Subsonic, comparably easy to handle The jump to a Mach 2-high performance beast was gigantic. The F-104 was designed as good-weather good weather point interceptor. Get off, climb almost vertically up to the bomber, fire your rockets and land again. The germans insited to use it as a multi-role combat fighter, including low-level ground attack sorties, loaded up with 2-4 auxiliary tanks and bombs. Anything else than ideal for a vehicle that is stripped down to the absolutely necessary It is true that in the beginning a lot of accidents happened, obviously the "just jump in and get off" approach did not work. Therefore the Luftwaffe turned to send their pilots into the USA, where the training could be way more extensive than on the pretty crowded Germany. From that point on, the accident drastically went down. And he said that back in that time the accident rate was anyhow rather high in that time of transition to supersonic, and that in comparison was not so much higher than for other planes. (I know, the drinking story lends itself to say "No wonder they fell down when they were drunk". But I do not think that was a major cause, or he would not have told that). One story I heard was that often they did not find the plane when it crashed. In soft ground, they saw the crater on the surface, but the plane sometimes could move on dozens of meters in any directtion, and in the 70s the methods to search for metal were not as sophisticated as today. Another anecdote: In school, we had a giant oscilloscope. a real monster. (not that the screen was big, that is). Our physics teacher told us that this was an original Starfighter toolkit oscillosope. Part of EVERY plane that was delivered was a complete set of tools. But the maintenance crew of course only used a fraction of these tools, the rest remained stored away and covered dust. And when the Starfighter was phased out, there were hundreds of unused toolsets available.
Can confirm the wings on that.... thing... were and still are dangerous. Had one sitting out front of our barracks which was directly across from the Enlisted club on base. Venturing off the path to the front door was taking your life in your hands. I've always wondered if a "joined wing" would have been effective on the F-104. @7:30 mark, "Since then we've found ways to still get supersonic performance" Ya, it's called (say it with me people :) ) MORE POWER! :) Kind of wonder how it would work if you used a flexible nozzle?
When I was posted to Cold Lake in '91, the Starfighter was still a subject of discussion. There was a small group at AETE (the test unit) that wanted to try putting a GE404 engine in one, when the CF-18 was brand new. The brass found out and quickly put a halt to it, because they already had arrangements to ship the bulk of the 104s to Turkey and were scared to see how much better it would be... same thrust, 55% fuel consumption of the J79. The weight and balance with the lighter engine would have to be offset probably with some lead plating up front... it never got past the dream stage, but it would have been something...
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
This plane looks like a mix between the f-104 and the f-104
you might be onto something here
Good one.🤣
Which variant😐
@ the f-104th one
Astute observation, Watson
Dude it kinda looks like the F-104
To modernize the F-104:
1. Change nothing.
2. Offer bribe adjusted for inflation.
this, this right here.
Ah yes, the Lockheed Martin way
The answer to everything.
MONEY
@@starbomber
Imean... Eh? They only did it the once, meanwhile they have skunkworks, I'd argue they have the most prestigious collection of plane designs in the world.
@@thericepotato5847once that you know about. Doubt it was the first, doubt it was the last.
You should call it the Super-Duper-Starfighter
and call the further upgrade "Super DEE Duper Starfighter"
Lockheed-Martin F-104X 2Star 2Fighter, now with even more bribes
"And this... Is a Super-Starfighter that has ascended past a Super-Starfighter.Or we could just call it the Super-Starfighter 2. And this... Is to go... Even further beyond..!" *Screams in German pilot.*
@@fnfdmgjfndf why did i imagine the starfighter with a longer canopy lol
I was thinking Hyper-Starfighter. But Super-Duper-Starfighter is far superior.
Kids these days with their fancy fly by wire technologies. back in my day we got into an incontrollable death spin like real men.
But why don't you wonder about WHY are kids this days flying with fly by wire technology? Because y'all gave it to us!
HELL YEAH BROTHER
there is no such thing as a natural death, there is only disease and f-104 death spiral
That one indian mig29 that crashed recently:
@@AirRBnpctbf the MiG-29s don't have FBW
I'd like to point out, in case somebody hasn't already, that the F-104G had a thrust-to-weight ratio at max takeoff load of 0.54. Assuming things scale up linearly, this F-104M would (on paper) have a thrust-to-weight ratio approaching or exceeding 1.0.
Meaning that immediately after getting airborne, you could point the nose up +60 degrees with reheat on, climb to altitude in 1 minute (because it's basically a rocket now), then level out, pull the burner, and supercruise to your intercept start, relight the burner to 2 Mach, fire all your AMRAAMs in TWS, then bravely run away to refuel, rearm, and possibly do it all again.
Dogfighting ability might be dog water (and standoff not much better), but that sounds to me like an incredibly powerful and dangerous interceptor.
A few old Germans hear Erika in the background. More or less what the Komet was only actually having a rocket engine.
you don't even need a TWR of 1.0 for that.. JA-37 Viggen had a TWR of 0.66, and had a climb rate of 40,000 feet a minute.. and was mach 2.0 capable.. Would be interesting to see that one with a modern take with a more powerful engine, computers etc. It was big and loud though, and they used to fly at below 100 feet at mach 0.95 constantly in the countryside in the 70's and 80's. :D
Bro, TWR>1.0 means that you can take off vertically, aka a Rocket
Care spre deosebire de MiG-21 chiar este un avion care îndeplinește nemijlocit funcția de interceptor. 🙃
Vreau 5, acestea vor fi o măsură relativ ieftină de a intercepta rachete de croazieră.
That F-104G t/w at maximum take off load is wrong though, the maximum of the 104G would be a full outfit of fuel, full missile racks (2x AIM-9), wingtip fuel tanks, and all the bombs it could fit on the pylons
A MiG-25 upgrade to *actually* be comparable to the F-15 would be interesting
That would mean upgrade the MiG-31 a bit. That was the upgrade to make the MiG 25 actually good.
@@Mcsnipe425
You shut your goddamn mouth, the MiG-25 was great! It did exactly what it was designed to do, which was to fly high and fast for cheap. If the soviets wanted it to turn or climb quickly, detect things, carry weapons, be safe to operate, or go more than twenty hours between engine replacements, well then they should have included that in the design brief!
@@jasonalbert6251good satire
Sooo the Mig 31 with better maneuverability?"
@@hurricaneace143 Maybe also other materials (unless you don't want to drop high altitude and speed performance) because 31 is *_heavier_* than 25
Italy would buy this plane without a second thought
and they did lol
During the celebrations of the 100 years of the Italian air force, the main event was the flight of a still flying 104
Italy would buy this in a heartbeat
Depends on Lockheed's willinginess to grase the government's palms this time around...
"The F-104 does not need a modernization project." Messier, you should have told the Italians that...
There are a couple Italian F104s in private hands in FL that do contract work for NASA.
Reportedly there are feats they cam do that few modern aircraft can match and this makes them good test beds for certain conditions NASA wants to try out before they go full scale on am idea.
@@ravissary79I believe they’re privately owned by a company called “Starfighters”. They have a few different F104 variants with modernized avionics.
@BrapBrapDorito yup, they have a contract with NASA to lease them for tests but they also do private flights... but it's EXPENSIVE.
Oh, yeah the F104S.ASA
It even has a radar jammer!
I still can't process the fact that the year the Soviets were rolling out the Flanker was the same year the Italians were rolling out the Salsa Starfighter
Messier became 60s-80s italy for this video, insane
2:35 that was mainly due to user error, the F-104 was notoriously hard to land an required skilled pilots to do so, and it needed to be well maintained. The fresh german crews that had low experience with jets, and experience basically equal to zero when it comes to supersonic jets and their maintenance had big issues when it comes to landing the thing. That is why most of the crashes occurred during landing. It did not help that the landing speed of the F-104 was just barely above it’s stall speed.
I just wanted to say this. Germany had the biggest death toll with the plane yet every other country found it very good, Japan really liked the A variant as far as I know, mainly because they had just the A variant but you know, context is needed which variant. I like the Starfighter as well, in War thunder I tried it once and I was better with it than the A-4E or the A6M Zeros that I mastered almost to a tea.
@ yes. The starfighter was quite good when it is used for intercepting bombers/aircraft. And when it Comes to War Thunder it is easy to use.
It's not the pilot's fault when you have to land at such high speeds you risk overshooting most runways.
Italy: "This thing is so good, I'mma have Fiat build me more to take on Flankers."
Yeah landing and 300 kts is kinda tricky 😂
Another fun fact: The F-104 spawned the development of Lithotripsy machine (i.e ultrasonic kidney stone breaker). Back in 1950-60s as Luftwaffe used the F-104 for a totally opposite mission as intended (low level sprinting strike), they found that the internal structures were literally tearing itself apart. This was traced all the way to rain droplets hammering at supersonic speeds causing minishocks. Dornier (IIRC) built a machine that simulates this to Mach 3 conditions and kinda went.... what if we use it to fix stuff in our body? Thus born Dornier MedTech.
Funnily enough the F-104 holds a special place in my heart, My grandfather while posted in California lost a bet to a F-104 ground crew when he didn't believe the wings were razor sharp. They then proceeded to let him run his finger along the leading edge of the wing.
It's fair to say my grandmother wasn't pleased when he came home later that day with a cut finger and a loss of an forgotten amount of money.
D-DONT DISS MY BABY LIKE THAT!!! THE ITALIANS AND ALL THE PILOTS WHO FLEW IT LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(and she scored a kill against an F-15 in simulated combat)
Also cool modernization (love what you did with the wings) but i always thought if god forbid an F-104EX program ever occured (idk maybe the Italians wanted to push the old girls service life further than 2004) that she would be used as a launch platform for longer range missiles like ALCM's, a glorified missile boat, get up there quick fire off the ALCM and get the hell outta dodge before anything actually capable could come shoot it down.
An F-104E doesn't exist, so a 104EX can't either.
Counterpoint: I don’t trust the opinion of Italians on anything.
@@johnjuiceshipper4963why
The Italians despised the Ameritrash supersonic pencil. Had it not been for the Lockheed bribes, they would have never even touched that absolute joke of an "aircraft".
@@sealioso Because the pockets of Italian politicians were and still are fully stuffed with US bribe money, at the expense of the Italian military.
theres a reason the f104 looks more like a missile than a plane. its deep forbiden love of the ground and becoming a fire ball should be no surprise.
"Bad f-104,you're not a Japanese imperials plane"
@@leobuana7430 I mean, Japan was bribed into adopting them to IIRC
@@themanformerlyknownascomme777 sure but they already changed name to "Japan such and such defense force" by then
@leobuana7430
JSDF (Japanese-Self-Defense-Force)
In this instance it would be the
JASDF (Japanese-Air-Self-Defense-Force)
Also as far as I am aware they were not bribed, instead Japan adopted it because no other aircraft at the time of its adoption could *maintain* mach 2 which they wanted, as other aircraft could hit mach 2, but only for very short periods.
@@Skykid3307 No, they were most certainly bribed. Last I checked, the actual acquisition officials were looking at the F11F-1F Super Tiger as their airframe of choice before the officials above them were bribed by Lockheed.
Something to consider: Part of the Reason why German F104s suffered higher accident rates is because it was sold to us in the role of a CAS aircraft. That's Close Air Support, on a plane made for Mach 2 Interception, which can barely hold a single ton of bombs. An aircraft which was designed so it would have barely enough lift to land before stalling.
How did this happen? Massive bribes from Lockheed.
There's a problem with the bribe theory: literally every major company bribed everyone all the time. It was a prerequisite for getting anyone to take your design seriously.
There was evidence this might have influenced some early procurement, but most of it was the acquisition of unnecessary or redundant designs and bad early jet tech.
Compared to it's predecessors and contemporaries the Starfighter was unusually good, not uniquely bad. People forget jets from the late 40s-Early 50s were actual garbage, and by the Starfighter they'd realized that, bribes or no, the planes had to actually work or the grift would get caught out.
I actually heard that the aircraft was not a good interceptor and was not used by the U.S. in that role.
It was a very short range point fighter that was cheap.
I also heard that it was used in the strike role by the Germans because of its speed. However, it obviously never got to do that.
@@russetwolf13 you saying that it was "unusually good" when compared to it's contemporaries proves that your just trolling or have no idea what you are talking about.
the F104 in actual combat during the Indo-Pakistan war LOST to it's soviet contemporary in the MiG 21*
*of course, the F104 also holds the distinction of being the last US air frame to get into a fight with contemporary soviet aircraft, unlike the F-14 and F-15 which all faced aircraft of the previous generation.
@@themanformerlyknownascomme777 the mig 21 is a much more modern jet then the f104 and it happened that the war was in 1965. Pakistan also only had 12 f104s so they wouldn't see much use considering there is absolutely no chance that they were all operational.
@@russetwolf13I understand that at the time the environment around procurement was less rigorous, but i don't think that removes the culpability of the parties involved, especially given the sociopolitical relationship between Germany and the US at the time, which was still somewhat of a dependency. I understand that the Quality of the F104 is often undersold, but this was decidedly over the line of reason.
Nice. I love the idea of an F-104 retrofit with modern tech. Lockheed tried that with their CL-1200 Lancer.
Talking about Starfighters and West-Germany. The man who is to blame for this whole fuck-up was Franz-Joseph Strauss, our Minister of Defense back in the day who got himself in some shady deals with Lockheed to buy the F-104 instead of any other competitor (like the french Mirage for example). The Cherry on top was the decision to not only buy a fleet of good-weather high-altitude Interceptors, but modified them as all-weather fighter-bombers with a higher load than it was optimized for, which ended as you already said in the loss of a third of all airframes and bunch of good pilots.
@@ThePandoraGuy yeah I would have liked to see him incorporate aspects of the Lancer and f16 in this.
He was really committed to keeping the silhouette, but that tail is 75% of this aircraft's problem.
Curiously, the Italians did built a heavily upgraded variant of the F-104 - the F-104 ASA/M which was capable of carrying the SARH radar guided AIM-7E/M Sparrow and Selenia Aspide (an improved Italian built AIM-7 variant). In terms of pure Air Interception, it was superior to early F-16 variants which could only carry the short range IR guided AIM-9L Sidewinder. Lockheed themselves built another heavily modified/upgraded prototype variant in the late 1960's - the CL1200 Lancer. The Lancer used modified air intakes (rectangular akin to those on an F-4 Phantom), replaced the mid-mounted trapezoidal wing with a high mounted trapezoidal wing that had Leading Edge Root Extensions (LERX's), and traded the high mount T-tail for a more conventional tail similar to that used on the F-16. FWIW, the idea of mating a high powered ECM kit and a fuel tank is one you might wish to reconsider as the mix is liable to cause the fuel vapor in the tank to explode.
I looked up at the proposed design and it is a dope-ass plane. Slight correction though but it only has lex, similar to early F-5s, not root extensions
awesome info. Both are really cool
Then they realized that no fighter could be fast enough to outrun a missile and we have Mach 1.6 front line fighters
You can mitigate fuel tank explosions by filling the tank with nitrogen gas instead of normal air.
@@RTPJu If the missile was launched far away enough, "turning cold" on it and diving down into the lower atmosphere, helps a lot to deplete the energy of the missile. Making it easier for the pilot to "outrun" and evade it. Of course this isnt the case at closer range, especially not with modern missiles.
The 1.6 Mach frontline fighters is from the F35 I guess? In combination with the stealth technology, this is sufficient. ;-)
The 104 is a superb example of a focused design that excelled in the role it was made for. It's not a fighter, it's an interceptor. It was built specifically to chase down and destroy Russian bombers before they could get close enough to deliver their nuclear weapons.
Exactly like the Mig-21 was. Pinpoint Interception! Both were topped quickly by Missiles in this purpose thoug! For any other missions whey were very badly suited. And the upgrades made them both heavy with not enough benefits as counterweigth!
Lol. Do you people ever read a book, or just get your info from YT videos? The F-104A was designed as an air superiority fighter. The F-104C was a multi-role fighter bomber. The F-104G was a development of the "C" model. Only the Italian F-104S was a true interceptor.
It was designed as an air superiority fighter to replace the F-100. Not an interceptor.
If I remember correctly the Germans had the big smooth brain idea to take an F-104. A plane meant for high altitude interception missions. And have it do ground attack as well. So part of the reason for such a high accident rate was the fact that they basically told these pilots to try to hit tanks on a flying lawn dart.
That and their "pride" of pilots and neglected advices from Lockheed to really trust instruments rather than senses to fly this thing !
They trustes their "guts", like any proud pilot back then.. and crashed. A Lot.
I've met several belgian starfighter pilots and they really trusted instruments to fly it. We didnt lose as much as german did.
Our pilots even managed to pull insane stunts with it and broke some records that still hold to these days.
In fact, Italian had something opposite. They literally turned star fighter into a bvr fighter carrying sparrows.
Well, not without some bribing IIRC (or was it F-5?)
@@Real_Claudy_Focan tbf Lockheed Martin also did it's best to advertise the F 104 as something that it really wasn't, and bribed people to buy it.
Also it was loaded up with additional gear to perform ground attack by the absolute smooth brain which drove a URANIUM block in a car WITH HIS FAMILY HALFWAY ACROSS GERMANY . It is also a joke that the Free day on his date of death is because of his death
The F-106 would also make an interesting modernization project.
For both you'd be looking at engine modernization, computerized engine controls, radar upgraded to something way more modern, and full avionics and weapons system upgrade to handle modern weapons.
You'd be left with a fighter-bomber with insane lift capabilities, ala F-16XL.
@jacobmccandles1767 Yup, and a fast one. It makes you think, once the F22 and F35 have handled the SEAD job, you don't really need stealth.
To be fair, the F15, F18, and F16 are probably easier to upgrade to modern specs than the century series fighters but it's nice to daydream.
The aircraft nearly killed Chuck Yeager.
Even he could not recover it from a flat spin, even tried deploying a droge chute to pull it out of the spin.
There are videos of this incident on the net, he ejected eventually and the plane was lost.
A real death trap.
The F-104's wing was also corosive from graphite. Mechanics would mark a circle in pencil around areas to on the wing, and a week later would find a hole straight through the wing.
Revisited gen 3 aircraft and trying to make them into gen 4.5s is actually amazing. I've been interested in this for awhile, as there's artwork from other enthusiasts that visit that topic. They Super Phanton 2 (F-4) was real and is a good revist, but the Tomcat 21 is probably the main inspiration for a lot of the 'revisiting' tropes. Making the Tomcat 21 proposaln Grumman really changed up a few things and was attempting to make the Tomcat comparable to an F-22. You're essentially trying the same thing here, revisiting Gen 2 or Gen 3 designs and forcing them to compete with Gen 4.
You should do a whole series on this!
Love your content and presentation, love the history details and just all around this is one of the better aviation nerd channels! Keep them coming! It's good to see you again after a couple months
i dont know what's funnier, the fact that people thought somebody would ACTUALLY turn a Cessna-172 into a stealth plane, or the f-104
"Wait... Can I pull up in time to avoid that mountain on the horizon?" if the suspense doesn't kill you, the high wing-loading will! :D
If FIAT could had this hindsight, Italy would STILL be using the F-104 up to this day. Heck, even the SASA variant that they made of the Starfighter was a better Interceptor than the Tornado, according to some of their own pilots.
"Oh it's in a game"
Ah yes, I too expected this guy to build an actual stealth Cesna, low budget of course
There’s already an upgraded F-104 that got rid of the T-tail, vastly improved performance, increased the wing area, and was modified to reduce its radar cross section. It was designed by Lockheed, and it’s still in service.
…it’s called the U-2
Germany still couldn't get past the whole "everything must be able to dive bomb" thing when they got the F-104
The funny thing is that Lockheed really did have an F-104 derivative - the CL-1200 proposal with more wing was submitted to the competition that resulted in the F-16
extra value F-5 from alabama
i like how your naval 104 idea was accompanied by a "successful landing" where it stopped, then pooped its chute.
iirc, the 104 combat record is 104 of friendly pilots dead and 1 kidney transplant recipient saved.
0:35 “The F-104 does not need a modernization program.” Correct it is perfect and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
Imagine if this game existed in the early 2000s, you probably could have sold this upgrade package to Italy
As someone who loves the F-104 and comes from Germany (ich weis, ist etwas paradox aber naja), this makes me very happy.
Beautiful build dude!
Its funny coz the Italians did just that, and even then, the absolutely cracked missile interceptor was still considered outdated despite the modifications done.
See: Aeritalia F-104S
Ehhh, not really. The ASA and ASA/M had some notable avionics updates, sure, but they didn't really come with any noteworthy changes to the flight surfaces or the engine.
The italians basically built this, the F104 Asa-m had a built in ECM, a better radar a new engine with more thrust and some minor areodynamic adjustements !
The 3 piece canopy could be replaced with a one piece canopy, similiar to something like a F-16 or F-15
Based on the fact that the F-14' Super Tomcat's upgrade was called the "Attack Super Tomcat", this new Starfighter should be called the "Attack Super Starfighter", aka ASS.
God I love how the F-104 looks
Shame it tries to kill you
k-king minos.... from ultrakill,,,,
Nothing beats the F-104 howl... BEAUTY
Italy: I'LL TAKE YOUR ENTIRE STOCK
Turkey: Hey, leave some for me too!
I have a peice of wreckage for my grandfather's F-104, him and his copilot ejected after engine failure then went to the closest bar to get shit faced after the crash before going back to base😂
This is even more insane that one time federator tried to predict the future of warfare in 2003
the thing with the f104g is that it wasnt what germany needed. we needed a do it all plane kinda, but got THIS. the f104 needed 2 engines, if one fails you have others and also fly by wire. maybe add canards for stability...oh wait thats almost a Eurofighter...
Step 1: Upgrade the engine.
Step 2: Make it compatible with AMRAAM’s. Possibly even the AIM-174.
Step 3: Upgrade the radar, cause god knows it needs it.
Step 4: Reinforce the landing gear or something. (From what I’ve read, pilots would need to retract the gear the moment they left the ground to not damage them.)
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit…?
Step 5: sell It to the Italian airforce
Step 6: profit
German here :-D I was an aircraft mechanic for 6 years at the German Navy. The F104 was designed as good weather interceptor. In Germany it was used as a all weather Fighter Bomber Interceptor and Reconnaissance plane. A bit to much. Beside the pilots came from much smaller and slower planes as the F104 was introduced.
As well a lot of modifications became implentet by the Germans. Flap disagree BLC and more. Yes we lost a high number of pilots.
Beside ... F104 was the most beautiful plane but beside the one which was totally not forgiving and mistake.
It was designed as an AIR SUPERIOTY FIGHTER, for Christ's sake.
Maybe you could do a video modernizing the A-5 Vigilante? I love how the airframe looks, and it’s a shame they put it out of service so soon. I would also love to see if you could re-create its linear bomb bay!
How about crossing it with its ancestor, the F-108 Rapier? Meant as an escort for the XB-70, a lot of its design research went into the Vigilante, and for the most part it looks like a delta-winged variant.
@ I like that Idea, but perhaps he could do them separately as a “modernization”. both are really cool aircraft!
To the people who thought he was making an IRL stealth Cessna… please never vote or get a drivers license
Don't let the Italian Airforce see this video, or ve will be stuck with that thing for another 40 years.
As a german kid in the 80´s i can remember news that at least one German F-104 couldnt turn with the earth curvature and got lost in space.
Italians put several keel fins to increase stability.
You should have took the same path and the same model as basis. F-104S-ASA-M
Other modifications (That I would apply with an infinite budget):
-Idk change the T tail for a conventional horizontal elevators/horizontal stabilizers? V TAILS?
-Re-worked intake
-Better canopy, something more like the F16 bubble canopy with less obstructions
-Fricken F35 EOTS and JHMCS (Pointless unless stealth is applied or considered)
-s t e a l t h t e c h n o l o g y (For frontal RCS at least using angular separators and the V tails mentioned previously and some other stuff)
-Multi-functional touch screen (Like F35 because I like funni plen iPad)
Now if you read through all that and thought it was a good idea, consider buying the F22/35.
why change the t tail
@@sealioso At high AOA the aerodynamics get messed up and it would go into a spin
@@sealioso shadowing at high AOA. If the elevator's in the wake of the wing, it can't do much anymore.
So, a Lockheed Lancer. The Lancer was the actual attempt to modernize the F-104, but never built by Lockheed.
i remember being brought to the channel by the first or second video that blew up. really happy to see how far you've come! super deserved and admirable 😁
12:11 Breaking their backs? According to what you said a few times earlier in the video, these pilots' backs would be cut in half
"I want an f104!"
don't worry, a lockheed representative has been dispatched to your republic, breifcase in hand!
I'd love to see something similar with the F-5 airframe. We almost (almost) got the F-20 Tigershark in the 80's to replace the F-5E from the 70's, which itself was a refit of the F-5 from the early 60's. What if the F-20 won over the F-16 in the export market and kept going until today?
Everyone would still get F-16. Way more usable load and space, as well as modernisation potential. F5/F20 is kinda trash, not a bad plane, but not one you would want to build your airforce around or be main hitter for both air and ground targets.
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 Well yes, because that's what happened. I'm speaking hypothetically. I understand the reasons the F-16 is superior.
@@alexturnbackthearmy1907the under belly intake was not used in later planes. The dual intake of the F-5 is again the way to go. Even the downward facing intakes ( Concorde) were not adopted on F-35.
The flat belly of the F5 is stealth as seen with nighthawk. Make it fat for more internal weapons space.
I appreciate your editing skills for comedic effect.
FINALLY! I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT FOR A WEEK STRAIGHT!
How about modernising Me-262 next time? PRETTY PLEASE MESSIER!
Good engines (maybe even late WW2 ones that were actually kinda good unlike ones 262 ended up equipped with), maybe some guns that do not feel like you are throwing grenades by hand at enemy plane, and you get almost F-86. Germans even fit radar on few, so maybe better radar too.
Reminds me of the Luftwaffe ICE F4 Phantom modernisation program as interim for the Eurofighter, where they basically put F/A-18 engines and fire control sets and avionics in them. People remember them as just AMRAAM capable but it was much more than that. Then is the RAF modification of F4D Phantoms, with higher thrust Rolls Royce engines/management although the bigger intakes cancelled out any speed improvements, the actual benefit was fuel efficiency and engine reliability, vastly increasing range and hauling capacity in all conditions.
I personally think it would have been cool if you introduced some form of front canards like in the f104g ccv, and if you started the project from the italian f104s, being the most modern variant. In any case, it's a really cool video. Thanks for somewhat redeeming one of my favorite shitty ass planes
This is the first time i saw you having fun making these. Knew this day would come. Subscribed.
Lockheed already planned an updated F-104 called the CL-1200 Lancer. Just make that!
"naval version" hooking itself and then deploying a 'chute had me in stitches
Void warranty if aircraft comes in contact with dust? Well shoot, I’m in Arizona. That’s going to be an issue…
Best fact about the 104 is that if you put new wings on it and a new tail, put a radar in the nose. Paint it black and you got a U-2.
Just to make this clear ! The german F 104 pilots were not nazis ! They weren t also bad pilots in particular either! They were given an plane designed for high altitude high speed missions only , and than pretty much told to do the opostie ! Combined with several ill advised modifications and and bad maintance (which admitatly was our fault ) you get a widowmaker ! The F 104 which was a specialized plane , designed to to one job only which it could do well , simply wasn t the multirole fighter corrupt politicans like Josep Strauß (than defense minister of West Germany) forced it to be!
The Germans put a LOT of low-time pilots into the Starfighter, with predictable results. Their maintenance was indeed lousy. All NATO Starfighter operators used the plane for the same missions, in the same weather. It was never a case of using the airplane for things it wasn't originally designed for.
3:30 simple answer is we got a more powerful engine on ours despite never getting training for anything faster than an old aircraft from the war or an F-86
just clarification, the f104 is not by germans, they just call it widowmaker. made by lockheed
One thing that’s crazy even knowing you called the prop planes obese they’re tiny compared to cold war and modern jets. Great video!
Imagine you modernized the MiG..... oh wait. That's the JF-17.
Or 21-98 aka Bison
we didn't "find ways to generate lift without compromising hypersonic permormance"
we just befriended the spirals
If someone did this to my F-101 I would be so happy. It's in my shed right now all alone and sad. Plus with the F-101 you can have a second guy doing nuclear payloads and a second pair of eyes to carry the second goggles when you launch the genie low to ground under 2 nm on a bandit
I once bumped my head on the leading edge of a F-104 wing. Luckily, the leading edge covers were on, but it still hurt a lot!
We are so back boys
10:10 I totally expected a "Switching a single spool after burning turbo jet j79 to my custom twin spool low bypass after burning turbo fan engine is faster than reloading" joke thrown in there lmao
North Korea needs this for their MiG-15s and 29s
Isnt Mig29 still kinda modern, and only needs better electronics and engines (both of which russia and china have)? Also i dont think they are using mig15`s anymore, there were severe issues with them and mig19`s in 90-2000`s in few countries that still had them due to age (or at least in albania).
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 Yeah I suppose the MiG is relatively modern. Like you said it just needs upgrades (like the F-18). Sukhois are better! I love Sukhois.
Billy Bob Thornton explains how to upgrade retro-age fighters into modern war-machines. I didn't know I needed this in my life.
The F-104 had a crazy crash rate in the German Air Force for a bunch of reasons. First off, it was super advanced for its time and hard to fly. In the U.S., only the experienced pilots got to handle it. But in Germany? They handed it to rookie pilots fresh out of training who didn’t have the skills to deal with such a tricky jet.
Second, Germany didn’t use the F-104 the way it was designed. It was originally meant to be an interceptor, but Germany pushed it into roles like low-level ground attack, which it wasn’t built for. Combine that with tight budgets, bad weather, and maintenance issues, and you’ve got a recipe for disaster.
You got most of this right. Bravo! Keep in mind that the Dutch, Belgians and Canadians all used their Starfighters for the same missions as the Germans, but their accident rates were considerably lower. So it wasn't an issue of using the plane for missions it wasn't designed for.
@@dukeford You do know that other Nations had other Versions? The Canadians for example had the CF-104. A Version made dedicatet for ground attacks. While us germans used the F104 G and this Version was more of a multipurpose fighter with some ground capabiltys.
@@DarthLeu ALL the NATO Starfighters were virtually the same airplane.
@@JackNiles-hc8yz Well actually yes but no. They are similar but those changes like the CF104 had in her avionics etz. made her way more stable for ground attacks. Same plane. Different parts.
It’s like car series. The Rallye version is still the same car but different parts to make it more off-road capable.
@@DarthLeu Well, that's kind of like the Germans using the M-B seat while everyone else stuck with the C2 seat. Same airframe, different accessory equipment.
The Riccione double attack system was tailor made for it.
1. Two aircraft approach, split wide, and
2. Whichever the enemy flight approaches (call him 1) performs a high speed zoom climb.
3. Whichever the enemy flight doesn't approach (call him 2) , attempts to turn in behind the enemy flight.
4. Aircraft 1, at altitude, slows, and turns, then dives on the enemy tail while accelerating.
5. Enemy normally dives to get away from the reunited pair on their tail.
6. Aircraft 1 and 2 normally use higher speed, and position behind the enemy to shoot down the enemy.
F14 super tomcat with F22/23 engines, pitch-based thrust vectoring, lighter weight, larger fuel storage, and modern electronics when?
The suspense will kill you, if the mountain doesn't that is.
14:37 : Average french aircraft name
We germans did some crazy stuff with the F-104! Like launch it from a ramp with a Rocket booster, use it as a fighter bomber, fly air shows with it and all of that NOT in a video game xDD
3:40 Impossible, all the Nazis were exported to the US and the USSR after WWII.
That’s not true, the German NATO Chief was still there, the same as that Austrian UN general Secretary, and a bunch more…
@carlosreyes2954 Insisting on calling random West German pilots Nazis post WWII is distasteful. He made a bad joke, I delivered a bad joke answer.
Besides, I doubt the people in those positions were still associating themselves with anything Nazi after world war II. That shit had a deep impact on the German psyche that still gets hammered into you at every stage of school today. For a good reason.
(that is,if you are German. Apparently, no other nation sees the benefit of teaching these lessons to their pupils. A handful of countries be doing an any% dictatorship Speedrun at the moment.)
As a HUUGE (not physically, mind you) F-104 fan i loved this! The starfighter has a bad reputation but actually does have the normal accident ratio. Its timing in the breakthrough moment of military supersonic flight when every design was obsolete the next weekend, its radical looks and misunderstanding of its role and strengths made sure it would remain as a "flying garbage" as you put it. But its nonetheless - at some point of time its stubby little wings carried the whole aerial defence of central europe, and one thing you could argue being facts are: it did its job amazingly given that communism stayed away from its turf, and if the war would have been a reality in the early to mid 70's central europe it most likely would have encountered soviet planes that would have been largely inferior to its design of sustained speed.
Edit: i LOVE the new design, the little wing extension on the fore part of the wingroot makes so much sense. Reminded me of F-5E that had the same redesign done from previous models that had a smaller extensions. Also F-5E had a wingspan increase AND this: a coke bottle redesign. The scientist who most likely had funny accent notoced that if the plane has a slim curvy shape to its fuselage at the center of wings it increases the planes peeformance. While F-104 does have a very small feature like that Im not sure if you could have improved that even more? Also, italian S-model added two more aft underbelly fins to its previous one to improve the planes stability and enlarged the air intakes. Im not sure if this inspires you at all but just FYI
Cool MiG-21 video 👍
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What do you mean "it's about F-104"?
I mean, the MiG-21 did actually beat the F-104 in actual combat.
I met someone that had served in the german Luftwaffe in that time.
He had sat in F-104s at the end of the runway, armed up, ready to take off instantly should the russians launch a strike.
He told us they had never drunk so much as in that time. Because it did not matter. When you got the order to start, it did not matter whether you got off the ground, could fly your mission. In any case, when you returned, your country and all in it would have been turned into radioactive dust.
He also told other more F-104-related points.
Up to the introduction of the F-104, the german Luftwaffe had flown planes like the F-86 and the Fiat G-91. Subsonic, comparably easy to handle
The jump to a Mach 2-high performance beast was gigantic.
The F-104 was designed as good-weather good weather point interceptor. Get off, climb almost vertically up to the bomber, fire your rockets and land again.
The germans insited to use it as a multi-role combat fighter, including low-level ground attack sorties, loaded up with 2-4 auxiliary tanks and bombs.
Anything else than ideal for a vehicle that is stripped down to the absolutely necessary
It is true that in the beginning a lot of accidents happened, obviously the "just jump in and get off" approach did not work. Therefore the Luftwaffe turned to send their pilots into the USA, where the training could be way more extensive than on the pretty crowded Germany. From that point on, the accident drastically went down.
And he said that back in that time the accident rate was anyhow rather high in that time of transition to supersonic, and that in comparison was not so much higher than for other planes.
(I know, the drinking story lends itself to say "No wonder they fell down when they were drunk". But I do not think that was a major cause, or he would not have told that).
One story I heard was that often they did not find the plane when it crashed. In soft ground, they saw the crater on the surface, but the plane sometimes could move on dozens of meters in any directtion, and in the 70s the methods to search for metal were not as sophisticated as today.
Another anecdote: In school, we had a giant oscilloscope. a real monster. (not that the screen was big, that is). Our physics teacher told us that this was an original Starfighter toolkit oscillosope. Part of EVERY plane that was delivered was a complete set of tools. But the maintenance crew of course only used a fraction of these tools, the rest remained stored away and covered dust. And when the Starfighter was phased out, there were hundreds of unused toolsets available.
Do not ever Slander the F-104
im from australia and i can confirm the f-104s turning circle is far larger than our country
never been this early lol
Same
Same lol
The widowmaker title was mainly due to Germany trying to use it as a Strike fighter/bomber.... and flying at very low altitude.
If they'd been flying the Mirage or the Super Tiger they would have called them the same thing.
"The Blursed Starfighter"
this was so fun to watch lol, thanks for sharing
Car Restomods are so yesterday's... Plane Restomods are the newest thing!
I love the editing in this one, keep up the great work!
3:58 that f104 is getting ready to rate around the earth
Can confirm the wings on that.... thing... were and still are dangerous. Had one sitting out front of our barracks which was directly across from the Enlisted club on base. Venturing off the path to the front door was taking your life in your hands. I've always wondered if a "joined wing" would have been effective on the F-104.
@7:30 mark, "Since then we've found ways to still get supersonic performance" Ya, it's called (say it with me people :) ) MORE POWER! :)
Kind of wonder how it would work if you used a flexible nozzle?
17:15 ahhh Hitchcock's favorite aircraft. You can see the mountain, you're moving to avoid it, but you don't know if you'll hit it
The F-104 is my favorite plane so you have no idea how happy this video makes me.
When I was posted to Cold Lake in '91, the Starfighter was still a subject of discussion. There was a small group at AETE (the test unit) that wanted to try putting a GE404 engine in one, when the CF-18 was brand new. The brass found out and quickly put a halt to it, because they already had arrangements to ship the bulk of the 104s to Turkey and were scared to see how much better it would be... same thrust, 55% fuel consumption of the J79. The weight and balance with the lighter engine would have to be offset probably with some lead plating up front... it never got past the dream stage, but it would have been something...