I really love these videos, so rare to find developers that are interested in this stuff like me! I love diving into these topics. Please keep making them ❤
I'm glad I ran into this channel. I wasn't deep into Choo Choo Charles, but I heard you in a couple of interviews, post-success. This is such an important topic, and you did such a good job of elucidating it. It might not win you a whole lot of fans at companies that lean on gambling and fleecing their "whales" (who often aren't rich, but rather the people genetically predisposed, habitually conditioned, or socially pressured, to gamble on their wellbeing). But I also want to suggest what I'm sure you already know... this cheat code is used in much bigger contexts than games, and to much worse ends. This is the kind of message the people of the industrialized world need to hear, and a lot are ready to hear... It's also a cheat code that a lot of cartoon villains misuse, to tailor messages for their own ends. People need honest breakdowns of complex concepts, like this. In plain language. Throngs of people are running out of patience for how things are set up, and the bread and circus aren't cutting it, anymore... and we need more people who can break this stuff down, like this, so it's not just the supervillains using plain language. Not saying you need to get into politics, or anything of the sort. Just keep being you, and keep following that imperative.
Have you read Infinite Jest? I think you would really resonate with it. One chapter from the book that still haunts me follows a group of scientists that have figured out how to stimulate the pleasure center of a rat's brain by delivering electric pulses (something that actually happened in real life). The rats can press a button that triggers a dopamine release, creating intense pleasure. Quickly, the experiment devolves as the rats become addicted to pressing the pleasure button, neglecting their basic needs, pressing the button repeatedly, some even to the point of death. Scientists (in the book) then open the experiment to humans, with very clear messaging about the dangers of the experiment. The next morning the scientists arrive to work to find a line around the block of willing participants.
Great video. It is behavioural psychology through and through, 100%. From Skinner box onwards. Have read a book on this a while ago, called Glued to Games.
Entertainment is a spectrum in relationship to how serious a situation is. Fun is when Entertainment is most intense. You cannot have fun without seriousness.
Very responsible of you to talk about this strategy even though you might get hate for it, I think that people needs to hear the thruth about what the big dogs are thinking! I also love the idea of this channel with more technical and psychological thoughts and theories! Very enlightening content and it's nice that you highlight this part of the game dev process that most people don't think about, top tier content!!
These videos are enlightening, and are exactly what I’ve been looking for. I’ve been listening to all of your interviews, and was hoping to get your insights into this industry in a deeper way because I believe you have a unique vantage point. Thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to create these! I am really looking forward to hearing more about game concepts and ideas.
Very interesting in two ways. I have always felt that some of the issues that have compounded to our society having a lot of ADHD....you have a nation full of explorers/adventurers cooped up inside in classrooms or offices. When I was 12 I watched the first Star Wars movie.....100 times over that year....and felt like I was born in the wrong time....the idea of going to work coming home, watching the news, going to bed....and getting up to do it over and over again was not for me.
Great talk man, also perfect timing with this channel, just when I'm getting into game development. Ill definitely try implement this way of thinking into game design. Regarding this negatively impacting you, honestly I dont think that will happen. Your games will still be providing entertainment regardless and bring value. I also think that games that provide a mental challenge or problem solving are a good thing for human brain, especially if that is the only form of challenge someone will put upon themselves. That is the best thing a game dev can do for those people.
Honestly, thanks so much for this video, it's seems that it's not going to get nearly as many views on your main channel, so I just want to say, that for the few people that it reaches it will be important :)
8:53 man I saw the graph and instantly thought how palworld actually did exactly what you put up there, no wonder the game blew up as much as it did, besides being a POKEMON WITH GUNS which was a hook, but underneath you had the human instinct coded into the game mechanics
Interesting for sure, Thanks for your insight. I appreciate it. Gonna take that in and think about it as a game-dev. I never thought about it in those terms before. I think maybe because I see a lot of entertainment as art or self expression of how many different artists come together to achieve a specific vision of self expression? Almost like a rhetorical thing? I know that lots of money is being made in the games and film industry. Ultimately that is a goal for sure because we're in a capitalist system, but it is not THE goal as far as I felt. Kind of like "wouldn't it be cool if this existed in your own way of expression" not like "I need to make a product that achieves these bullet points" Maybe its a Naive way of thinking for me and hence why I'm likely not going to do as well as a game-dev. But it is interesting for me to think for sure. Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for this dude.
I have some thoughts about this. First I feel like this information you condensed (pretty well) is scattered out there and people rarely put 2 and 2 together. I love reading Chris Zukowski's Blog and he repeatedly says that the genre that most steam shoppers love is the "Crafty-buildy-simulationy" and i think that's because it resonates a lot with our instinct to craft, build, organize (order from chaos), etc. My third thought is that even if people UNDERSTAND this they won't stop consuming or letting themselves be "hypnotized" by entertainment, just as a lot of people know that their job isn't bringing any fulfillment to them, it pays the bills and serves a purpose. It has practical meaning in their lives. Now this leads to my last thought which is I think that entertainment is all of these things you explained but it IS at the same time the expression of self, spiritual in nature and people trying to be creative. That may be only my perspective on this and I'm very ignorant about most of these topics but I feel like this is also something that is part of human nature. Even BEFORE human civilization as we know it we had oral storytelling and music, which is by itself a form of entertainment. So while most of the entertainment we have today can only exist because of the way we live in modern times, we already had this need and form of expression since a long time ago. It just took a different form overtime. Depending on your personal philosophy you can see that humans also enjoy watching things that are beautiful even when it's first purpose was something practical (like shelter, a home can be beautiful and it can elevate your sense of happiness). So that translates to entertainment as well, we enjoy seeing and experiencing interesting things because, I believe, it is in our nature to pursue that. So these things can emerge from our instincts but they are also at the same time things we like to experience. Another good example are sports. They serve no practical meaning for our survival in modern times but they are a show that people love to see and even before when it DID mean something like a show of a country's strength it was also being presented as a form of entertainment. So I believe it can be both things at the same time: a fulfillment of our instincts and something that elevates the mind/soul/your experience of life.
Just extending a little bit: You're also on point about how entertainment affect our lives and how we perceive it. It sure can destroy one's mental health. But just as living in a beautiful place, a beautiful home and having a beautiful family can make you happier, mindless consuming content will affect in you a random positive/negative percentage (almost always negative)
@@elvismdchoo-choo charles dev already explain what entertainment is but you didn’t explain what why sport, art is not entertainment and why it’s self fulfilling?
@@ping_th Oh sorry I was just throwing some thoughts I had at the time. I think I meant that sports/art/music ARE entertainment but they are at the same time something else that contributes to the experience of our lives, not just something that distracts us from the real life.
Since we are into making games I find it more interesting to ask what a game actually is. It's something that challenges us that helps us grow in a fun way. Entertainment is something else. Actually it wouldalso be more interesting to ask the question what is "fun"
I’m really glad you’re talking about games through the lens of psychology! It’s such a fundamental part of how video games even function at all, and it’s so odd that it’s brought up so little and not much past surface level concepts like “people like when good things happen and don’t like when bad things happen”, so massive massive appreciation for that! I will say though, while the topic is interesting, I can’t help but feel like there were a couple conclusions and inferences you made in this video that didn’t quite feel right, or missed the forest for the trees? I’m *also* not a behavioural scientist, anthropologist or formally educated in any related field so I’m not coming at this from an uber “I’m correct” position, but it’s something I think about a lot so wanted to share anyway! A more general thing in this video was that I feel like certain explanations for human behaviour or psychology you gave could be over-reliant on the “survival, early human, hunter-gatherer” mindset to the detriment of the concept itself. It kind of also pairs with the “modern human, 1st world problems” view a lot in unhelpful ways. For example, the idea that entertainment is a “shortcut”, or a “cheat” and that we didn’t do that because we were too busy with survival. Human beings have created and sought entertainment for as long as we’ve existed! There’s loads of examples of art, song, games, literature, folk tales etc etc. I’m not arguing that modern day doesn’t have more entertainment, or that there isn’t a different/more complex relationship we have with it now, but calling entertainment a “cheat” feels like it’s prescribing an opinion based on modern day issues that doesn’t actually have much to do with what entertainment actually is or why it exists. I’m not entirely sure I’m even getting across my actual point with the words I’m saying and the phrasing I’m choosing so I’m not gonna go into any more specific examples and just move to more general stuff: I think viewing entertainment as a “replacement” of any kind does a disservice to your own understanding of it! To me, entertainment is less of a category, commodity or *thing*, and it’s more of a state of being. Because *anything* can be entertaining. Because it’s not a set of characteristics, it’s a feeling you get. And linking it back to “early human survival” alone can limit and misguide your understanding of it too-we didn’t evolve based on hunting and gathering! That is what we *did* but that is not why our brains work the way they do. And I think it’s important to remember that because it changes the way we view our current world! Like instead of thinking of “hunting” as a fundamental instinct for instance, think of it in even more specific terms of *what’s happening in the brain*: accomplishment. Achievement. Problem Solving. Learning. Reward. Safety. Stress Reduction. There’s nothing wrong with using the concept of hunting as shorthand, but remembering that it’s not literally *hunting* that’s important makes it easier to see how actually a person can get exactly those types of feelings in the brain by playing sudoku!
You might be interested in watching some of Healthy Gamer's stuff. There're a lot of parallels with what you've said and what he's said (he's a medical professional that makes videos around mental health, like he's mentioned some of the stuff you've talked about like how technology appeases our desires without actually addressing root causes which can lead to individuals deteriorating as they go for the easy fix instead of fixing the problem). I also checked out your original dev channel and it's the some of the most brain rot content I've ever seen, but this video is awesome.
Love it! Your theory supports many different issues nowadays. And the chart it's somehow remembering me to Maslow's piramid but mixing two different perspectives (personal and society). Also, I'm wondering if it's possible to increase the success of an entertainment product not increasing the releaf of scratching your subconcious but extending the impact to the real world (ie: making the player learn something useful).
Very interesting point with the idea of making entertainment that is appealing due to teaching something. I think it could work on a small scale, but would naturally have a much much smaller appeal, based on the popularity of educational content, documentaries, books etc. in comparison to products designed specifically with entertainment in mind.
@@ScientiaLudos I've used the example of "teaching something" because it's the most straightforward one. but I missed to express myself correctly. The idea is to extend the the impact to the real world and find some reinforcement between in the real world impact and the instinct you want to trigger. Somehow, a viral game, an e-sport or a multiplayer game it implicitly extends the impact to the social sphere (conversations, leaderboards, tribalism...) making it real and aligning your itchy instict withing the game and the real world. But, imagine overcooked but the recipes are real recipes (adapted for the pacing and the audience). That would increase the appealing to the audience? How many other ways exists to align these two worlds? Sorry, if I'm bothering everyone...
@@revidev I would argue that ALL games teach. All entertainment is education (or re-education), as was said before. When you play Overcooked, sure you're not learning any useful recipes, but the process of playing it is fun because it teaches you things. Not things that can be boiled down to factoids or concrete literal words, but tacit and unconscious things, which your mind learns without you even realizing. Since they're tacit, they are inherently really hard to describe in words, but one example could be just a general skill of time management under stress. The process of playing the game wouldn't be fun if your mind wasn't adapted to recognizing the process as enjoyable. In other words, it is fun because your mind judges the activity to be valuable in some way because it keeps your skills honed or lets you you pick up new skills which are ultimately useful for survival. So, your mind rewards you with good feelings when you engage in the activity so that you'll want to keep doing it so that you can squeeze all the learning you can from the activity. Not every fun thing is like this though, because our brains aren't PERFECTLY adapted to hunting and gathering - they were simply good enough to allow survival, so we have many leftovers or side-effects. Like enjoying driving at high speeds. Yes, the speed is fun because it lets you test and improve your reflexes at a different and higher level. You're receiving rapid information as things zoom past you, which makes the experience extremely stimulating, but the ultimate tradeoff is terrible - you risk your life. Humans are flawed.
Yah this is what I kinda was thinking of. Experiencing other people's art/self expression, be it music, or painting does something to me in a, "look at what this human made with their experience/technique/unique life that is expressed through their art. I think maybe just because these days, its less about art and more about making money, the focus becomes "this is popular therefore I copy it so I can make money. Which is why a lot of art feels similar, or hollow lately? lots of copy of a copy of a copy.
been doing this research too, and i believe that we as gamedevs, and mostly as indie gamedevs, should fight abusive behaviour from big companys by just offering players a better experience, respect players time by not making them grind, respect players money by giving them more value per buck in our games, ect… It sucks to feel like you are somehow cheating by knowing this and using it in your games, but big money greedy entities will do anyways, and by offering something better we should be ok.
I came to the same conclusion that video games were just virtual "easier" versions of life based on survival. Objectives that get you rewards, unlockables, exp, mimic working or hunting and gathering for food/resource, which comes with feelings of accomplishment. Social games like webfishing fulfill the need to socialize and connect with the tribe. Microtransactions and having rare items that other people dont makes people feel special and superior to others on a social level.
I absolutely love and appreciate your videos! It would be amazing to see a video or series where you take a break from the hardcore topics and do something more casual, like scrolling through or playing random games on Steam while sharing your thoughts. It could also give real examples of all the topics we’ve been discussing.
Big reason why FPS games will always be appealing is because they simulate hunting: you track, aim and then shoot, just like you would with a spear in pre-agricultural times.
Entertainment is like a medication we overdose on to deal with the loss of our survival habits that industrialization abstracted away. Skills that would naturally satisfy our survival instincts just aren't valuable enough to live in modern society.
I gotta be honest, while I do agree entertainment can be used for "primal instinct satisfaction", I don't see how other types of entertainment mediums that aren't movies or games can generate that satisfaction. Classical music, for exemple, can be deeply satisfying and entertaining to listen to, but I don't see how it is related to any survival instinct. Or even looking at a masterful painting, sculpture etc. Anyone has any thoughts on this?
Music is basically pattern recognition and idea connection, which every mind inherently enjoys. We enjoy general epiphanies and discoveries, because it allows us to create useful knowledge that improves our chances of survival. Again, we enjoy the GENERAL thought patterns. These happen all the time when listening to classical music - you hear an intro and then it's repeated 8 minutes down the line in some different way - BOOM, pattern matched, epiphany! Pleasure! You hear repeating frequencies which your mind automatically marshals and categorizes. Your brain doesn't realize that this type of pattern matching is basically useless for survival (in pre-agricultural times) but because your mind must reward pattern-matching, it also rewards listening to music (especially new music you've never heard before since the density of new information is higher). Same goes for enjoying beauty - we see symmetry, we recognize faces, we discern colors - all of it slightly enjoyable because the general act of looking gives information and we're simply exercising our skills at object detection and categorization, which allows us to extract MORE information from the world around us, which ultimately aids in our survival.
There’s no doubt you’re very smart. Please don’t tell me that this whole channel will eventually lead to you selling a course or something along those lines.
You're pretty much suffering from the same as I am. Not wanting to become the "corporate super villain", who uses depression in society as a way to make money (through video games). It sucks that I have interests in the game making industry (coding, art, music and sound design) and yet the entertainment business is based on the exploitation of human instincts. I'm still trying to figure out a way to see the value of art and entertainment, where it can actually be a positive thing for society. Maybe there is no "good answer" like you said. Any thoughts?
There are ways to use the creations in a positive way, though. Even though they come with a sense of lack, it’s how you handle that-whether you leave them with something meaningful or drain them for as long as you can-that makes the difference.
You're missing one fundamental thing: Doesn't matter how you format your life to satiate your instincts, real life fundamentally cannot consistently maximize primal satisfaction alone. THIS is where entertainment comes in. It's not a crutch or a substitute, it's the only way to reach peak happiness. Using your analogy; owning a house is better than renting but from there, buying a 2nd house doesn't make you happier than renting in a 5 star resort
It seems that you don't read/answer the comments, but answer one simple question for yourself. Kids play all the time. With everything they have including their imagination. Animals play. And so it has been since the beginning of time. Don't you think that there is something more to it, than just corporate exploitation of primal instincts?
@@ScientiaLudos I am not a wizard, I can only suggest you to get a higher education program in any form, like everyone else. But as you said yourself, you don't have to. Your strategy works, after all, so why dive deeper?
@@ScientiaLudos But anyway, it's not about you, it very dangerous when you put out a public video where you spread misinformation with a serious face. That's our problem with you mostly.
I dont know how i feel about becoming what is essentially the proverbial drug dealer 😅 and that the better the game the better the drug... Ive actually been mulling on this for a while as well and im not sure of the solution. Perhaps it is a reframing of our mind. Legendary artists of our time such as Tolkien, GRR martin, Michael Jackson, Martin Scorsese all touch on human instincts deeply especially for their time but we dont see them as entertainment peddlers. They are reverred as inspirers, wise or simply great people. Maybe just providing value to many people is enough.
How do you position sexual desire exactly? The drive for survival, domination, and production of goods is largely tied to the instinct of reproduction and passing on healthy genes to future generations. Therefore, power (which can manifest as wealth, knowledge, or skills) is used to emphasize sexual selection and demonstrate how desirable one is to the opposite sex.
Additionally, connecting with abstract ideals such as art, scientific production, religion, justice and politics, morality, and ethics is tied to the mind's ability to abstract. These allow individuals to adopt a humanistic perspective by accepting a self-centered universe. The idea that "everything is connected to me" feels more meaningful than the notion of being a tiny speck of dust in an infinite universe. Therefore, we instinctively need abstract concepts to find meaning. I believe these abstract beliefs should not be compartmentalized into different branches on the board.
I really love these videos, so rare to find developers that are interested in this stuff like me! I love diving into these topics. Please keep making them ❤
Thanks for the honesty. And thanks for wanting to help others.
I'm glad I ran into this channel. I wasn't deep into Choo Choo Charles, but I heard you in a couple of interviews, post-success.
This is such an important topic, and you did such a good job of elucidating it. It might not win you a whole lot of fans at companies that lean on gambling and fleecing their "whales" (who often aren't rich, but rather the people genetically predisposed, habitually conditioned, or socially pressured, to gamble on their wellbeing).
But I also want to suggest what I'm sure you already know... this cheat code is used in much bigger contexts than games, and to much worse ends.
This is the kind of message the people of the industrialized world need to hear, and a lot are ready to hear...
It's also a cheat code that a lot of cartoon villains misuse, to tailor messages for their own ends.
People need honest breakdowns of complex concepts, like this. In plain language. Throngs of people are running out of patience for how things are set up, and the bread and circus aren't cutting it, anymore... and we need more people who can break this stuff down, like this, so it's not just the supervillains using plain language.
Not saying you need to get into politics, or anything of the sort. Just keep being you, and keep following that imperative.
Gavin, you're my favorite channel to watch in the past few weeks.
Absolutely fascinating.
Have you read Infinite Jest? I think you would really resonate with it.
One chapter from the book that still haunts me follows a group of scientists that have figured out how to stimulate the pleasure center of a rat's brain by delivering electric pulses (something that actually happened in real life). The rats can press a button that triggers a dopamine release, creating intense pleasure. Quickly, the experiment devolves as the rats become addicted to pressing the pleasure button, neglecting their basic needs, pressing the button repeatedly, some even to the point of death. Scientists (in the book) then open the experiment to humans, with very clear messaging about the dangers of the experiment. The next morning the scientists arrive to work to find a line around the block of willing participants.
And your point is?
Wow, this is the deepest video on the channel. Useful not only for game developers, but everyone. A must watch.
Great video. It is behavioural psychology through and through, 100%. From Skinner box onwards. Have read a book on this a while ago, called Glued to Games.
Entertainment is a spectrum in relationship to how serious a situation is. Fun is when Entertainment is most intense. You cannot have fun without seriousness.
Thanks! Such a tremendous insight into the very important role games can have in our lives
Thank you for sharing your thougths Gavin!
These videos feel very personal and I'm all for it.
Keep being you! ❤
Very responsible of you to talk about this strategy even though you might get hate for it, I think that people needs to hear the thruth about what the big dogs are thinking! I also love the idea of this channel with more technical and psychological thoughts and theories! Very enlightening content and it's nice that you highlight this part of the game dev process that most people don't think about, top tier content!!
These videos are enlightening, and are exactly what I’ve been looking for. I’ve been listening to all of your interviews, and was hoping to get your insights into this industry in a deeper way because I believe you have a unique vantage point. Thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to create these! I am really looking forward to hearing more about game concepts and ideas.
Yep so true
This answered so many of my questions about life. Thanks a lot.
Very interesting in two ways. I have always felt that some of the issues that have compounded to our society having a lot of ADHD....you have a nation full of explorers/adventurers cooped up inside in classrooms or offices.
When I was 12 I watched the first Star Wars movie.....100 times over that year....and felt like I was born in the wrong time....the idea of going to work coming home, watching the news, going to bed....and getting up to do it over and over again was not for me.
Great talk man, also perfect timing with this channel, just when I'm getting into game development. Ill definitely try implement this way of thinking into game design.
Regarding this negatively impacting you, honestly I dont think that will happen. Your games will still be providing entertainment regardless and bring value.
I also think that games that provide a mental challenge or problem solving are a good thing for human brain, especially if that is the only form of challenge someone will put upon themselves. That is the best thing a game dev can do for those people.
"It consumes your will to live". Best line I've heard in a long time
Hey Gavin just wanted to say I binge watched all 4 videos of this channel, I really love hearing you talk about these niche topics, keep it up :)
You are right Gavin. Entertainment is very important for people as long as they see and use it correctly
Thanks for saying this even tho you feel like it will negatively affect you, good luck!
That was an amazing breakdown of defining "entertainment" through abstraction. A definition encompasses all others. Cheers
Honestly, thanks so much for this video, it's seems that it's not going to get nearly as many views on your main channel, so I just want to say, that for the few people that it reaches it will be important :)
I've heard fun is described as: winning an uncertain situation where you are not completely sure of the outcome.
8:53 man I saw the graph and instantly thought how palworld actually did exactly what you put up there, no wonder the game blew up as much as it did, besides being a POKEMON WITH GUNS which was a hook, but underneath you had the human instinct coded into the game mechanics
Damn gppd insight man. Also very interesting channel!
Its really REALLY clever how you connected all the pieces together. You are actually very smart Gavin, dont say youre stupid.
thanks mate, amazing video
Interesting for sure, Thanks for your insight. I appreciate it. Gonna take that in and think about it as a game-dev.
I never thought about it in those terms before. I think maybe because I see a lot of entertainment as art or self expression of how many different artists come together to achieve a specific vision of self expression? Almost like a rhetorical thing? I know that lots of money is being made in the games and film industry. Ultimately that is a goal for sure because we're in a capitalist system, but it is not THE goal as far as I felt. Kind of like "wouldn't it be cool if this existed in your own way of expression" not like "I need to make a product that achieves these bullet points"
Maybe its a Naive way of thinking for me and hence why I'm likely not going to do as well as a game-dev. But it is interesting for me to think for sure.
Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for this dude.
I have some thoughts about this. First I feel like this information you condensed (pretty well) is scattered out there and people rarely put 2 and 2 together. I love reading Chris Zukowski's Blog and he repeatedly says that the genre that most steam shoppers love is the "Crafty-buildy-simulationy" and i think that's because it resonates a lot with our instinct to craft, build, organize (order from chaos), etc.
My third thought is that even if people UNDERSTAND this they won't stop consuming or letting themselves be "hypnotized" by entertainment, just as a lot of people know that their job isn't bringing any fulfillment to them, it pays the bills and serves a purpose. It has practical meaning in their lives.
Now this leads to my last thought which is I think that entertainment is all of these things you explained but it IS at the same time the expression of self, spiritual in nature and people trying to be creative. That may be only my perspective on this and I'm very ignorant about most of these topics but I feel like this is also something that is part of human nature. Even BEFORE human civilization as we know it we had oral storytelling and music, which is by itself a form of entertainment. So while most of the entertainment we have today can only exist because of the way we live in modern times, we already had this need and form of expression since a long time ago. It just took a different form overtime.
Depending on your personal philosophy you can see that humans also enjoy watching things that are beautiful even when it's first purpose was something practical (like shelter, a home can be beautiful and it can elevate your sense of happiness). So that translates to entertainment as well, we enjoy seeing and experiencing interesting things because, I believe, it is in our nature to pursue that. So these things can emerge from our instincts but they are also at the same time things we like to experience. Another good example are sports. They serve no practical meaning for our survival in modern times but they are a show that people love to see and even before when it DID mean something like a show of a country's strength it was also being presented as a form of entertainment. So I believe it can be both things at the same time: a fulfillment of our instincts and something that elevates the mind/soul/your experience of life.
Just extending a little bit: You're also on point about how entertainment affect our lives and how we perceive it. It sure can destroy one's mental health. But just as living in a beautiful place, a beautiful home and having a beautiful family can make you happier, mindless consuming content will affect in you a random positive/negative percentage (almost always negative)
@@elvismdchoo-choo charles dev already explain what entertainment is but you didn’t explain what why sport, art is not entertainment and why it’s self fulfilling?
*in the simplest simpliest term
@@ping_th Oh sorry I was just throwing some thoughts I had at the time. I think I meant that sports/art/music ARE entertainment but they are at the same time something else that contributes to the experience of our lives, not just something that distracts us from the real life.
Since we are into making games I find it more interesting to ask what a game actually is. It's something that challenges us that helps us grow in a fun way. Entertainment is something else. Actually it wouldalso be more interesting to ask the question what is "fun"
Love ur videos bro! keep up the good work
Your success is definitely not an accident. You seem to have pretty deep knowledge of your field
Great vid. Glad for this kind of discussion in gamedev.
I made a lengthy comment but it seemed to get deleted(?) 😮
thanks for sharing this information. It helps me to navigate life
Great analysis 🔥🔥 Thank you!
I’m really glad you’re talking about games through the lens of psychology! It’s such a fundamental part of how video games even function at all, and it’s so odd that it’s brought up so little and not much past surface level concepts like “people like when good things happen and don’t like when bad things happen”, so massive massive appreciation for that!
I will say though, while the topic is interesting, I can’t help but feel like there were a couple conclusions and inferences you made in this video that didn’t quite feel right, or missed the forest for the trees? I’m *also* not a behavioural scientist, anthropologist or formally educated in any related field so I’m not coming at this from an uber “I’m correct” position, but it’s something I think about a lot so wanted to share anyway!
A more general thing in this video was that I feel like certain explanations for human behaviour or psychology you gave could be over-reliant on the “survival, early human, hunter-gatherer” mindset to the detriment of the concept itself. It kind of also pairs with the “modern human, 1st world problems” view a lot in unhelpful ways. For example, the idea that entertainment is a “shortcut”, or a “cheat” and that we didn’t do that because we were too busy with survival. Human beings have created and sought entertainment for as long as we’ve existed! There’s loads of examples of art, song, games, literature, folk tales etc etc. I’m not arguing that modern day doesn’t have more entertainment, or that there isn’t a different/more complex relationship we have with it now, but calling entertainment a “cheat” feels like it’s prescribing an opinion based on modern day issues that doesn’t actually have much to do with what entertainment actually is or why it exists.
I’m not entirely sure I’m even getting across my actual point with the words I’m saying and the phrasing I’m choosing so I’m not gonna go into any more specific examples and just move to more general stuff: I think viewing entertainment as a “replacement” of any kind does a disservice to your own understanding of it! To me, entertainment is less of a category, commodity or *thing*, and it’s more of a state of being. Because *anything* can be entertaining. Because it’s not a set of characteristics, it’s a feeling you get. And linking it back to “early human survival” alone can limit and misguide your understanding of it too-we didn’t evolve based on hunting and gathering! That is what we *did* but that is not why our brains work the way they do. And I think it’s important to remember that because it changes the way we view our current world! Like instead of thinking of “hunting” as a fundamental instinct for instance, think of it in even more specific terms of *what’s happening in the brain*: accomplishment. Achievement. Problem Solving. Learning. Reward. Safety. Stress Reduction. There’s nothing wrong with using the concept of hunting as shorthand, but remembering that it’s not literally *hunting* that’s important makes it easier to see how actually a person can get exactly those types of feelings in the brain by playing sudoku!
Great points! Thank you for sharing your thinking. I'm with you on this.
Thank you, thank you for your decicion to publich this video.
Holy facts, that people close eyes and do not wanna know.
You might be interested in watching some of Healthy Gamer's stuff. There're a lot of parallels with what you've said and what he's said (he's a medical professional that makes videos around mental health, like he's mentioned some of the stuff you've talked about like how technology appeases our desires without actually addressing root causes which can lead to individuals deteriorating as they go for the easy fix instead of fixing the problem). I also checked out your original dev channel and it's the some of the most brain rot content I've ever seen, but this video is awesome.
excelent video
Thank you.
Love it!
Your theory supports many different issues nowadays. And the chart it's somehow remembering me to Maslow's piramid but mixing two different perspectives (personal and society). Also, I'm wondering if it's possible to increase the success of an entertainment product not increasing the releaf of scratching your subconcious but extending the impact to the real world (ie: making the player learn something useful).
Very interesting point with the idea of making entertainment that is appealing due to teaching something. I think it could work on a small scale, but would naturally have a much much smaller appeal, based on the popularity of educational content, documentaries, books etc. in comparison to products designed specifically with entertainment in mind.
@@ScientiaLudos I've used the example of "teaching something" because it's the most straightforward one. but I missed to express myself correctly. The idea is to extend the the impact to the real world and find some reinforcement between in the real world impact and the instinct you want to trigger.
Somehow, a viral game, an e-sport or a multiplayer game it implicitly extends the impact to the social sphere (conversations, leaderboards, tribalism...) making it real and aligning your itchy instict withing the game and the real world.
But, imagine overcooked but the recipes are real recipes (adapted for the pacing and the audience). That would increase the appealing to the audience? How many other ways exists to align these two worlds?
Sorry, if I'm bothering everyone...
@@revidev I would argue that ALL games teach. All entertainment is education (or re-education), as was said before. When you play Overcooked, sure you're not learning any useful recipes, but the process of playing it is fun because it teaches you things. Not things that can be boiled down to factoids or concrete literal words, but tacit and unconscious things, which your mind learns without you even realizing. Since they're tacit, they are inherently really hard to describe in words, but one example could be just a general skill of time management under stress.
The process of playing the game wouldn't be fun if your mind wasn't adapted to recognizing the process as enjoyable. In other words, it is fun because your mind judges the activity to be valuable in some way because it keeps your skills honed or lets you you pick up new skills which are ultimately useful for survival. So, your mind rewards you with good feelings when you engage in the activity so that you'll want to keep doing it so that you can squeeze all the learning you can from the activity.
Not every fun thing is like this though, because our brains aren't PERFECTLY adapted to hunting and gathering - they were simply good enough to allow survival, so we have many leftovers or side-effects. Like enjoying driving at high speeds. Yes, the speed is fun because it lets you test and improve your reflexes at a different and higher level. You're receiving rapid information as things zoom past you, which makes the experience extremely stimulating, but the ultimate tradeoff is terrible - you risk your life. Humans are flawed.
Thk you for entertaining me while im at my low instinc job 😂 no seriously good talk learned a lot
Now I'm curious to hear your views on ART (an actual transformative piece of work, which is different from just entertainment)
Yah this is what I kinda was thinking of. Experiencing other people's art/self expression, be it music, or painting does something to me in a, "look at what this human made with their experience/technique/unique life that is expressed through their art. I think maybe just because these days, its less about art and more about making money, the focus becomes "this is popular therefore I copy it so I can make money. Which is why a lot of art feels similar, or hollow lately? lots of copy of a copy of a copy.
Excellent video!
been doing this research too, and i believe that we as gamedevs, and mostly as indie gamedevs, should fight abusive behaviour from big companys by just offering players a better experience, respect players time by not making them grind, respect players money by giving them more value per buck in our games, ect… It sucks to feel like you are somehow cheating by knowing this and using it in your games, but big money greedy entities will do anyways, and by offering something better we should be ok.
I just realized… Gavin is the Kurt Cobain of game dev
He’s got the „stare” 😂
I'd love to see this being discussed with Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG.
Agreed
Please no, k is on video crying he has trauma form being a mother and loosing a child.
I came to the same conclusion that video games were just virtual "easier" versions of life based on survival. Objectives that get you rewards, unlockables, exp, mimic working or hunting and gathering for food/resource, which comes with feelings of accomplishment. Social games like webfishing fulfill the need to socialize and connect with the tribe. Microtransactions and having rare items that other people dont makes people feel special and superior to others on a social level.
this video is so deep i have to watch it 2 -3 times
I absolutely love and appreciate your videos!
It would be amazing to see a video or series where you take a break from the hardcore topics and do something more casual, like scrolling through or playing random games on Steam while sharing your thoughts. It could also give real examples of all the topics we’ve been discussing.
I usually watch videos like this on 2x but I had to take time for this vary important knowledge
I think I'm your target audience. One game out, second on the way. Games not doing bad, not killing it either. Only comment to show support
This is some good stuff
Big reason why FPS games will always be appealing is because they simulate hunting: you track, aim and then shoot, just like you would with a spear in pre-agricultural times.
Factorio is Order From Chaos. It made over $100 million for a reason.
Entertainment is like a medication we overdose on to deal with the loss of our survival habits that industrialization abstracted away. Skills that would naturally satisfy our survival instincts just aren't valuable enough to live in modern society.
I like when it gets a little philosophical
I gotta be honest, while I do agree entertainment can be used for "primal instinct satisfaction", I don't see how other types of entertainment mediums that aren't movies or games can generate that satisfaction.
Classical music, for exemple, can be deeply satisfying and entertaining to listen to, but I don't see how it is related to any survival instinct. Or even looking at a masterful painting, sculpture etc.
Anyone has any thoughts on this?
Music is basically pattern recognition and idea connection, which every mind inherently enjoys. We enjoy general epiphanies and discoveries, because it allows us to create useful knowledge that improves our chances of survival. Again, we enjoy the GENERAL thought patterns. These happen all the time when listening to classical music - you hear an intro and then it's repeated 8 minutes down the line in some different way - BOOM, pattern matched, epiphany! Pleasure! You hear repeating frequencies which your mind automatically marshals and categorizes.
Your brain doesn't realize that this type of pattern matching is basically useless for survival (in pre-agricultural times) but because your mind must reward pattern-matching, it also rewards listening to music (especially new music you've never heard before since the density of new information is higher).
Same goes for enjoying beauty - we see symmetry, we recognize faces, we discern colors - all of it slightly enjoyable because the general act of looking gives information and we're simply exercising our skills at object detection and categorization, which allows us to extract MORE information from the world around us, which ultimately aids in our survival.
@notiashvili great points! I hadn't thought about it like that. Thank you for taking the time to more thouroughly explain this, friend
There’s no doubt you’re very smart. Please don’t tell me that this whole channel will eventually lead to you selling a course or something along those lines.
You're pretty much suffering from the same as I am. Not wanting to become the "corporate super villain", who uses depression in society as a way to make money (through video games). It sucks that I have interests in the game making industry (coding, art, music and sound design) and yet the entertainment business is based on the exploitation of human instincts. I'm still trying to figure out a way to see the value of art and entertainment, where it can actually be a positive thing for society. Maybe there is no "good answer" like you said. Any thoughts?
Genious!
There are ways to use the creations in a positive way, though. Even though they come with a sense of lack, it’s how you handle that-whether you leave them with something meaningful or drain them for as long as you can-that makes the difference.
You're missing one fundamental thing: Doesn't matter how you format your life to satiate your instincts, real life fundamentally cannot consistently maximize primal satisfaction alone. THIS is where entertainment comes in. It's not a crutch or a substitute, it's the only way to reach peak happiness. Using your analogy; owning a house is better than renting but from there, buying a 2nd house doesn't make you happier than renting in a 5 star resort
It's usually which one took more work that reaps the highest reward, not the objective "best". Enjoyment is relative.
This approach sounds alot like «Clay Christensen, Understanding the job»
It seems that you don't read/answer the comments, but answer one simple question for yourself.
Kids play all the time. With everything they have including their imagination. Animals play. And so it has been since the beginning of time. Don't you think that there is something more to it, than just corporate exploitation of primal instincts?
Brody, why you botting the likes on ur comment? Vid hasn’t even gotten 56 views in the past 2 hours 💀
@ScientiaLudos Idk ask my peeps in discord. Anyway, I hope you got the point.
Not really, would love if you could explain in more detail. Seems like you know something I dont 🙏
@@ScientiaLudos I am not a wizard, I can only suggest you to get a higher education program in any form, like everyone else. But as you said yourself, you don't have to. Your strategy works, after all, so why dive deeper?
@@ScientiaLudos But anyway, it's not about you, it very dangerous when you put out a public video where you spread misinformation with a serious face. That's our problem with you mostly.
Another proof a young mind can be far more enlightened than an old one
I dont know how i feel about becoming what is essentially the proverbial drug dealer 😅 and that the better the game the better the drug... Ive actually been mulling on this for a while as well and im not sure of the solution.
Perhaps it is a reframing of our mind. Legendary artists of our time such as Tolkien, GRR martin, Michael Jackson, Martin Scorsese all touch on human instincts deeply especially for their time but we dont see them as entertainment peddlers. They are reverred as inspirers, wise or simply great people. Maybe just providing value to many people is enough.
needs more locks on the door
How do you position sexual desire exactly? The drive for survival, domination, and production of goods is largely tied to the instinct of reproduction and passing on healthy genes to future generations. Therefore, power (which can manifest as wealth, knowledge, or skills) is used to emphasize sexual selection and demonstrate how desirable one is to the opposite sex.
Additionally, connecting with abstract ideals such as art, scientific production, religion, justice and politics, morality, and ethics is tied to the mind's ability to abstract. These allow individuals to adopt a humanistic perspective by accepting a self-centered universe. The idea that "everything is connected to me" feels more meaningful than the notion of being a tiny speck of dust in an infinite universe. Therefore, we instinctively need abstract concepts to find meaning.
I believe these abstract beliefs should not be compartmentalized into different branches on the board.
Dude are you ok, did you just get in a fight or attacked? What's with your door?
Average horror game developer room door
thanks gamedev kurt cobain🙏