You're (Probably) Wrong About Zuko and Hunter | Avatar: The Last Airbender & The Owl House
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- Опубліковано 28 бер 2024
- "Who are you, and what do you want?" Today, we are putting that question to two of our favorite bad but sad boys...who are in reality, very distinct, completely different and nowhere near as similar as you'd think. We'll be taking a deep dive into these two character's respective arcs, what makes them so distinct--and why it's critical to the cultural conversation about character analysis as a whole.
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That might just be the cutest thing i have ever heard
This Video was Great! Think Someday you could do an Analysis on Azula, Sasha Waybright and Catra? Cause personally I’d believe that Sasha is kinda combination between Zuko and Azula. While Both Catra and Sasha do share some of Azula’s domination traits but with sympathetic qualities and Pet the dog moments that make you want to pet them.
Zuko is redeemed, Hunter is SAVED
This is the best ANYONE could've put it 👏
I feel like Zuko was redeemed but Hunter was saved. I never even thought to compare them until this vid popped up
Yeah! That's why the wording of "Hunter had a redemption arc" doesn't really set with me right. He was saved from his abusive household.
"My uncle turned into a kaiju."
"..That's rough, buddy."
sdajdsljaldsjg God though can you imagine a post-character development conversation?
@@idlescree
What about a pre-and-post-development conversation? They'd have a ball-
SOMEONE MAKE THIS COMIC!
Hunter: A very...very...moldy, slimy, corpsey kiju who breaths mold fire....
“Once upon a time…
There was an Emperor.
Who
*FVCKING*
SUCKED.”
*to the tune of Beauty and the Beast* tale old as TV/tune as old as song/not quite family/pure authority/did everything wrong
Man, i love Hunter and Zuko! Both redemption arcs have some pararells. One can't help but compare both to each other. Of course, while Zuko's is about mental recovery, Hunter's is about finding his own indentity. In the end, both are really amazing stories....
Same
Hunter doesn't have a redemption arc...
@@darkestlight660 bro what are you saying he does
@@changingpeopleslivesmoon2993 no...he doesn't. His actions are coerced, he is a child soldier lied to about everything. He does not have anything to be redeemed for
@@darkestlight660 Yeah I second this. Zuko in some ways has always known the ways of the fire Lord where wrong but did it anyways. Hunter was never aware until the end and immediately deflected when he realized. The only real redemption arc to me is Amity and Lily. They knew what they did it anyways but then decided to change and be better.
Zuko has become the platonic ideal of redemption arcs. Every former antagonist character is compared to him. This video does a great job pointing out the distinctions between them. I'd love to see this kind of treatment with other characters, like Zuko and Catra.
God don’t even get me started on Catra, the structure of her narrative is so bound up in Adoras story it’s an even bigger non comparison
I think this phenomena is occurring precisely because a lot of these shows are using Zuko's arch as a sort of blueprint for redemption archs. It's no secret both audiences but especially writers of these shows are also fans of ATLA. Before Zuko's redemption arch became such a huge discussion or point of admiration in these sort of circles of both fandom and animation creators, these redemption archs weren't really common, let alone formulaic. Going out of the way to dismiss the comparisons people make with these characters is missing the forest from the trees. Are the characters the same? No. Are their archetype similar? Yes and it's because one inspired the other. Sure, to use this videos example, a lemon and apple aren't the same but they are both fruit that grow on trees and of plants that produce flowers. This isn't a comparison of lemons with pine cones or with fungi or coral for that matter. The reason why people in these cartoon circles compare them is because Zuko is the blueprint/reference point and people making the comparison are picking up on it.
Zuko, Hunter, Catra, Rose, Gatomon, Ru, Val, and Marcy in a room together sounds like a wild sitcom idea.
I would have loved to include more but again, the "category" is stupid broad so we picked what we hoped was a historical AND relevant sample...
Depends either the room is destroyed or half of the people are yelling and the other watching
Sounds like a horrible death match
Why do I feel like Zuko, Hunter and Catra would just give off _major_ sibling vibes? 😂.
Catra and Zuko would butt heads so very hare. I see Hunter just fading into the background and panicking when it occured. @@hannahmetzger4880
People sometimes forget that the full exercise isn't just to compare, but to contrast.
Exactly. I still call Hunter "blonde Zuko" as a joke, but Hunter occupies a VERY different narrative role. He still fills a certain niche (I have a soft spot for bad sad boys who grow into better people) but too many need a reminder of what closer readings mean
sometimes, comparing two characters can be pretty revealing when you look for things that make them different from each other, and in doing so you begin to understand both characters better. which is exactly what happens in this video
You get it!!
It's actually kind of frustrating that you can't have a character with the bad guys change sides without people going 'omg just like Zuko' or 'Zuko did it better' like, sure, his arc was handled well, but he's not the only one allowed to walk that path, and if others do it differently then it's not a flaw. It's just another way for a character with a different history and personality to either escape from a bad situation or learn to trust an outside group or try making amends for their actions.
Great break down!
Thanks!! And yeah, they're all quite different, and ATLA is one of those increasingly rare narratives that actually gets its entire runtime as intended. Direct comparison has felt less impactful to me in recent years just due to the changing nature of the medium and expectations for stories alone.
They're the same in the ways that matter (to me) (the ways that matter is: I love them)
This is still probably my favorite comment on this video so far
@@idlescreeI couldn't make it to the premier but the video turned out super good!! :D I didn't think about the two of them this deeply before, it was wonderful to get to know some of my favorite characters a little deeper through you!❤
@@andiheart Thank you so much for the lovely comment, and I'm glad you liked it!
I heard “I love them” in hunters voice (when he talked about wolves) lol
So, two things:
1. Great analysis. It's such an interesting dichotomy between them. Both Zuko and Hunter discover their own personhood but in fundamentally different ways.
Zuko learned the person he was trying to be wasn't really him.
And Hunter learned it was possible to be his own person at all.
2. Please talk about She-Ra more!
Thank you so much for the feedback, this is genuinely so kind and helpful. Curious, do you have a specific She-Ra topic in mind?
@@idlescree I'm happy with any She-Ra discourse but since it's topical how about the way abuse is characterized through Adora and Catra? How they're both abused but in opposite ways and how they continually cycle through those patterns. That stuff is so well done and always interesting.
@@dizbrony3906 It upsets me quite a bit how many people get angry at Catra for ultimately not being a perfect victim. Luckily it’s not most people, but so many people see the horrible way she acts as separate from the abuse she suffered instead of as a direct result.
@TwoCatsInLondon Right. It doesn't excuse her, it explains her.
@@idlescreeI have a recommendation for a She-Ra topic. How about you do videos like this one? Ya know, make comparison analysis videos between Hunter and Catra and Zuko and Catra, detailing each specific character's similarities and differences that they have with Catra? Also, I agree with the other commentator here, a nice, big analysis of the abuse that Catra and Adora both suffered through, how they both dealt with it, and why and how the abuse they suffered is so different from each other's would be nice. 😊.
Bad but sad boys club
Imo i think those 2 would get along.
Post character development, I'd agree. Initially I think Zuko might pity Hunter and Hunter might have something like contempt for Zuko based on how he throws shade in S2E1
@@idlescree it's fascinating to think that Zuko and Hunter are the same age, the difference in art style makes Hunter seem a few years younger. Then again Azula has graduated from a military academy already and she is the same age as Luz. It's kinda of wild how absolutely screwed up Azula is
@@willowarkan2263 It comes down to that huge difference in how adulthood/childhood are defined. The concept of "Teenager" as we understand it is historically VERY new, and the world of ATLA is hundreds of years removed from any norm approaching what the Owl House would consider typical or acceptable. It's fascinating.
@@idlescreehunter would probably say
Hunter:"My uncle the emperor killed be and cloned me alot."
Zuko:"That's rough buddy."
Zuko was a pawn in his cruel game. Its a good thing Ozai rejected him, because it showed Zuko that he should not act like his tyrant of a father
Okay, but now I can't help but imagine Aang calling Zuko a 'sad but bad boy.'
Or some punk kid telling Hunter 'his scar is on the wrong side.'
Oh hell yeah, the analysis I didn’t even know I wanted
I WILL make all my soapboxes everyone's problem, glad you love it!
@@idlescree Here for it 😅
I've seen one take on the events of Separate Tides from Hunter's perspective: He went into his confrontation with Luz and Eda jealous of the former and intimidated by the latter. His behavior was 90% false bravado, 10% believing himself to be in the right. (The fic is called Lonely Tide, by seasaltedwolverine on AO3, and is part of a series of Hunter's perspective on the episodes he appears in.)
I will have to check it out, thank you for the recommendation!!
Delicious, finally, some good f*cking analysis. I’ve seen so many bad takes on Zuko and Hunter’s arcs that this video is a breath of fresh air.
I once saw someone say that their arcs “didn’t count as redemption” because “they were only abuse victim stories”, completely ignoring huge chunks of their arcs (Zuko especially) and the nuance of redemption. They even said that Zuko “didn’t actually hurt anyone” and that there wasn’t a need for him to regain the Gaang’s trust. As an abuse survivor, I believe it is incredibly important to acknowledge that it IS possible for people like us to hurt others and that we still have a responsibility to take accountability for those actions, not just sweep them under the rug because we’re already hurting. PLUS, healing from abuse isn’t just about attacking the abuser, but also healing and finding personhood. Redemption arcs are similar! They’re not just about beating up the corruptive force, but repairing the damage one’s done and re-actualizing one’s role in the world.
TL;DR, storytelling is so much more than sorting a character into “evil aggressor” or “innocent victim”. Pain is messy and healing is messy.
Lol i love how you describe them as teenage person creatures
The only thing I love more than a video essay telling me why I'm right, is one explaining to me why I'm wrong. Anyways, time to do my third favorite thing and re-analyze all my favorite fictional characters from a new perspective. It's no understatement to say you could make an entire UA-cam channel's worth of content by comparing different characters to Zuko.
It's a a weird thing. Part of what made this video interesting to work on was considering the question of "What makes useful commentary? What does it mean to make a direct comparison? When is a comparison adding something to the conversation vs pointing out the obvious?" I've been thinking a lot about that, and how "media criticism/analysis" has changed or not changed lately.
I think it's better to *compare and contrast* , instead of just saying they're the same. Because what you did here was very fun! I see some similarities, but I also see the differences that make them unique. Venn diagrams are just fun sometimes, too.
Oh I am in wholehearted support of goofy fan shenanigans! I love those silly venn diagrams, I love commentary! My big worry is more that it potentially--and observably--has the power to drown out the story presented.
@@idlescree Oh, I absolutely agree! Human brains love to seek out patterns, and once we do find one, it's sometimes hard to get out of it. If we want to fully enjoy media, we need to make that effort.
What's funny about this is that I didn't even think to compare them. It had never even crossed my mind. Great video btw
Oooooooooooh i look forward to this one!
Cuz there's a lot of similarities between the two (which I think is kinda on purpose) yet they're still distinctly seperate characters. I love both of the shows as well as how they wrote these characters and theres definitely big differences, but you can still see the similarities to zuko when looking at hunter and go "hes gonna become part of the hexide squad and rebel against belos and its gonna be one hell of an interesting journey". I'd say the biggest difference between them is that Zukos story is a slow burn set in a war torn world wheras Hunter is a more messy and wild ride through a more gruesome Wonderland. One is like a refined tea with subtile flavors, while the other is a fruit salad with energy drink. Both are fun experiences, but one is definitely much more in your face about it.
Expertly put. Similarity does not make something equal, but seeing the differences can make both more memorable.
When I was in art school, something I was taught about discussing art was to ask "why" for any given decision three times before giving your answer as to what the choice was. This was about defending choices we made in our own art?? Like to make sure that even decisions we made subconsciously we could understand and justify in critique
But I've found it *increasingly* useful to apply it to the reading of any media text as well. Surface level analyses are often fairly shallow and based on artificial comparisons, and asking *why* those decisions are good or important has led me to enjoy media significantly more. It helps you find broader themes and asking why specific things are focused on can give you a much deeper understanding of the characters as well.
I really love the analysis you provide here for asking those questions. Thank you so much!!
I'm glad it was helpful. One of my most formative experiences was a teacher shouting "WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?" during part of an exercise, and being taught how to ask "Who, what, when, where, why?" when presented with any narrative be it fictional or real-life stories. These questions are very important to apply to the world around us!!
I love hunter as much as the next person but tbh he did hand in at least some palismen for belos to sniff off-screem and handed him one on-screen too so. I do think that's the worst thing he did, even worse than the beast thing because it was more than one and palismen also have owners that love them and they are part of their magic. He clearly didn't want to but he was giving belos his blunts repeatedly. I just wanted to point it out since I think it wasn't mentioned on the things that he did. He never was exactly directly lethal but he did participate in some deaths in some way.
Edit: apparently he also suggested making more for belos to sniff and I didn't remember.
It's good to point out! But again, all of that is stuff that he's doing at metaphorical gunpoint. How immoral is something like that if the person asking it of you will mutilate you, a child, if you say no? The selkidomus thing was something he had freedom to decide how to go about, and with the first option available he did his best to dodge it. Belos didnt tell him to get Luz involved. He interpreted his order and got creative with the solution. As dumb as it was.
Tbh, most of the other ppl involved in belos's coven props did some shit aswell. Its important to understand that hunter was isolated and had no real role model with any morals. He was manipulated and abused. He probs didn't even understand the gratifications of his actions. He was sold on the belief that this was fir the greater good.
Note that he may have also been physically abused aswell since below is seen lashing his anger out on him through violent threats.
Whenever I think that my hyper fixation on TOH is fading you come out with another video about it and I happy stim every second lol
Thank you for your amazing videos, out of all the video essay channels I follow you are definitely my favorite!
26:42 when the bully spots the most bulliable of the group immediately XDD
This was a really great video! I'm currently trying to write a story that has a character who's figuring out if they need a redemption arc or already went through one. Like they're asking themself "When will I feel redeemed?" Your videos made me think about how I can better write them.
That's really cool! :0
Thats an extremely interesting thought! There's also the question of what you the author think of as "redemption". In this case, we're looking at it in terms of paying something back, or buying something back, earning respectability. But for someone like Catra, her story doesn't really line up with that concept at all, and I'd describe it a completely different way.
incridible content as always, when the video was already show with the title i was like thinking about it for like one hour, and it really is a common mistake to take the journey of hunter into a redemption arc even tho is more like he just getting free, keep up the good content
Thank you so so much for joining us for the premiere (and being the first to jump in!), it was such a pleasure to chat :D We're so glad you enjoyed it!
I LOVE BOTH STORY ARCS AS MUCH!!!! ❤❤❤❤❤
They are truly excellent! Thanks for coming to the premiere!!! It's always a pleasure to see you in the chat :D
@@idlescree 😁😁😁😁😁😁✌
I agree with this. Claiming Zoku is like Hunter would be like saying Vegeta, Seto Kaiba, Byakuya Togami and Miles Edgeworth are alike. They might be asshole rivals to the main Protagonist of the story, but their relationship to the main Protagonist, backstory and even the type of rivalry they share with the main Protagonist is different.
It’s interesting to compare characters, but contrasting is just as important as it recognizes what makes them unique.
For all the similarities that they do share, I appreciate and relate to them both in completely different ways.
I remember this time after when atla xame out on netflix where everybody was comparing it to everything, in particular Zuko became this measuring stuck for redemption arcs, thid also happened before but it just when overboard at that time and it was so annoying
Overall you can say that Zuko and Hunter fill the same basic archetype, but not the same character. They are very different once beyond the basic layout of role in story. On the comparison between the apple and lemon trees one could say the main similarity between the two is that they are both plants that bare fruit.
Zuko has a true 'redemption' arc. Where he does need to make amends for his actions in the past as they caused severe harm to others. Meanwhile, Hunter doesn't really need to make amends. His actions were that of a victim not a victimizer. It is understood that Hunter is a child with reasonability's and expectations that no one his age should be expected to undertake. And after break away from Belos it is shown that he is little more then a victim of child abuse. Zuko while also a victim often actively victimizes others and purposefully causes pain for the idea of the greater good.
There is also the fact that Zuko for all intents and purposes was out of the direct control of his abuser. The only thing that kept Ozai in control was Zuko himself not making the break until season 2. And even then he is so starved for approval from his father that when the chance of it arises he takes it without a second thought, casting aside those who have shown genuine care for him. While something similar happens with Hunter in Eclipse Lake when he attacks Amity for the Titans Blood. It is done out of desperation. Plus the fact that this is his first interaction between him and Amity, so he has no reason to accept her help. And once Hunter starts to form actual connections with other kids, he is quick to break away from Belos's influence for there sake.
Zuko even with Uncle Iroh, the steadfast piece of support and love in his life, telling him that he is making the wrong decision he ignores it and chases the conditional love that he can get from his father.
Zuko needed to be redeemed while Hunter didn't need redemption but to discover himself and break away from the toxic upbringing he has grown to expect.
This video topic reminded me quite a bit of all the comparisons people were making after The Umbrella Academy premiered between Nathan (Misfits) and Klaus (TUA), because so many people claimed they were the exact same character because "boy with snarky quips who is associated with death and immortality played by Rob Sheehan". Meanwhile I was sitting there perplexed like ".....but these characters could not be more different???" So to hear you do the same breakdown between Zuko and Hunter, I felt very much the same. It's fine to have characters with similarities in surface level characteristics, but so much of what establishes characters as unique and worth watching is paying attention to differences in their cores, the differences in how they might approach the same situation because of who they are and what drives them.
Yes, this is 100% the reason we made this video. It could be just that I'm not in my teens anymore, but there is a point where that hyperbolic "theyre the same FR" stops being funny and starts being reductive to the point of non-equivalence. It changes how people relate to media in a way that I think impacts the reception but also the relationship between the audience, the work and sometimes the author.
@@idlescree I think that's a great additional point you make on the role those deeper differences have in how we relate to characters and their stories as an audience.
Zuko and Hunter seem similar on the surface and I enjoy both characters, but I certainly don't feel "seen" by the two characters in the same way. It's Hunter's ongoing journey to decide who he is and who he wants to be that speaks to me on a personal level, not so much Zuko's quest to evolve himself into a different person. Luz and Willow for another example, both friendly and empathetic characters, yet it's Luz's desire to be understood or Willow's insecurities about her abilities that make me feel connected to the characters, not their surface level personalities. They might look the same, but what influences drawing me to either are the _differences._
When you boil every character down the things they have in common, you lose the chance to really delve into a character and explore what they can teach you about yourself.
Oh my gosh I am SO GLAD YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS!
Comparing characters just feels like you're devaluing Character A because character B "did it better" even though character A still had their own unique twist on the trope that character B used.
When you compare a character's arc to another's that results in the themes and message of one character's arc being COMPLETELY overlooked for the sake of another's.
As someone who loves little details (this channel was definitely what started my fixation on details in writing) it just feels sad when people might look over the point of one character when comparing them to another.
Can't we all judge characters individually and love them for what they are rather than wiping their identities because they're similar to another character?
This is a well made video. As much as I agree that Zukos story is well written it does get exhausting seeing people say that X character is just another Zuko even though he isn’t the first evil turned good character. I’m not saying there aren’t similarities, but you also have to look at the context of the story to get accurate judgement.
Thank you. Very well said. Both characters are wonderful in very unique ways. It's always frustrating when people call one character a copy or duplicate of another just because they have a slight similarity on the surface. There's so often a lot of nuance that showcases great differences between them as well.
Thank you. Starting to think of it less as a character description or "similarity" and more as a "starting point" made more sense when I was working out why this bothered me so much we had to do a video about it. I'm glad you liked it.
Ok I NEED you to make ATLA analysis because this video was fantastic and I want to hear even more of your thoughts about that show. Your way of articulating your points is so... Delicious to listen to. Does that make sense?
It's very sweet of you to say! And yes it makes sense. To do an ATLA video...man, there is a lot to talk about and we try to comment on things we haven't seen before. We'll take it into consideration for sure, and in the meantime if you have specific topics, feel free to let us know!!
Like the Bat said, we're down to cover Avatar, but it needs to be from an angle that we haven't seen OR that we feel hasn't been covered properly. (I.e. contrasting Zuko and Hunter as similar, but not remotely the same)
I want to know what you think about King. He's my favorite character, he's just so damn cute and adorable.
There's a lot to discuss with King! Is there a particular aspect of him you find interesting? So many possibilities with him.
I love how he went from believing he was the king of demons to finding out that it was all a lie and him trying to regain a sense of identity by legally becoming a clawthorne and trying to find out what he is in kkkohd and to then find out he is a titan in edge of the world.
We're honestly overdue for a King video.
Really good video! I love both these bad but sad bois, but you're right, it's the uniqueness that makes them sparkle. I think it's fun to compare them, but mostly because putting them next to each other highlights their differences.
I think that in relation to Zuko and Hunter it's worth remembering that their respective Emperors are also VERY different. Belos is a liar to the core, whereas Ozai is much more into intimidation and violence than manipulation. That in turn affects the people around them. It was never a secret that Ozai was a monster, whereas Belos is still trying to claim "it wasn't me, and if it was I couldn't help it" to the bitter end. As a result, Zuko spends two and a half series wrestling with the fact that his obviously abusive parent is maybe, actually, not someone he wants the approval of. Meanwhile Hunter's defenses of Belos completely crumble in the face of the truth.
Really happy to have found your channel, this will feed my brain for a while!
But both are a scar-faced scary boi who has a vulnerable moment in a crystal-filled underground chamber where he almost trusts a character voiced by Mae Whitman but then betrays her at the last minute!
...I didn't realize katara and Amity had the same voice actor. Huh
LOOKING HER UP HAS MADE HE REALIZE SHE ALSO VOICES APRIL O'NEIL IN 2012 TMNT? I'm having a moment
Was sad to miss the premiere, but happy to see the video. Your analysis is spot on, imo, and I think the points about agency are really important in conversations about characters and redemption arcs. People love using Zuko as the format bc he's usually someone's first experience with a well written, fully realized redemption arc -- but that doesn't make every character with said arc like Zuko.
hello, I am a cult survivor, while hunter's story seems more accurate to me, emotionally zuko feels closer, it is a complex and nuanced topic that I think more people should be aware of, so thank you for going into it
I'm glad it resonated!!!
Zuko definitely gets to sit and stew with his complicated emotions more than Hunter does, over a longer period of time-- mostly because Avatar had the time to do it while the Owl House didn't. I'm not a cult survivor, but from what I understand about de-programming is it can take years to get back to some semblance of "What do I actually want?" without the influence of whatever institution you used to belong to. I hope you're doing well or at least doing better than before.
@@Kaipyro67ALT yeah you are spot on actually, deprogramming takes many, many years, and it takes an entire lifetime to deprogram, in my case, it was religion, and religious indoctrination from a very young age is the most common form and also one of the most insidious, my own father is a pastor, so that only made it 10x worse, if it was just once a week, it would not be as bad, but I basically have to live at church 24/7(not literally but metaphorically), needless to say being trans in this environment is not good for me(not the being trans part but the enviorment, yknow what I mean 😅), I go to art college in august tho so it will be over soon
@@inali_illustrates9142 Church, pastor dad, and being trans sounds like a nasty combo for a home life. I hope you're doing okay. You got friends or family outside the church that you can talk to?
@@Kaipyro67ALT well being trans itself isn't the bad part, of course I am sure you weren't meaning to say it that way, but yes, I do have friends outside of the church, I do really have any friends in the church really, at least in the one I am forced to attend that is in the middle of nowhere, I do have a couple christian friends tho, and gladly, despite our differences, and my pain, we are able to get along, heck, one of my best friends is christian
44 hours till premiere baby!!! I haven't even seen Avatar but this'll probably be awesome!
Oh its 100% worth your time. Please do check it out--but not the Netflix adaptation. If you do watch it, do so after you watch the original!!
As always a great analysis and a lovely way of tying it into story telling in general.
IM SO HYPED FOR THE PREMIERE!!!!!!
We are so excited to see you there!
whyyyyy is your channel still so smol, I love your content and argumentation!
The difference between Zuko and Hunter is Zuko is a prince while Hunter is/was a soldier.
Zuko can change his kingdom's societal views and make the Fire Nation a better place but Hunter can't, not on his own at least
I'm hyped for this video already! I love these two so so much!
WE DO TOO!
15:22 Mind you, I think a LOT of Zuko’s anger was down to the trauma of his abuse (which is also the case with another character who was abused as a child, Catra from SPOP) the flashbacks of him as a child show quite a sensitive & empathic boy but any anger he shows at this age is nowhere NEAR as intense as the angst he shows post-scar mutilation.
Plus, once he joins Team Avatar, his anger very noticeably starts to mellow out & unlike before is not what I’d call explosive even when he has the occasional outburst.
Oh certainly no one would disagree with you there. People have different ways of responding to trauma. The point was is that Zuko's learned response is Anger, followed by aggression. Hunter's learned response is Fear, and submission. Very different responses, very different personalities.
istg every time you make a toh video it transports me back to my toh phase 😭😭 (in the best way possible 😍😍). + loved the apples/lemons analogy
AGH THE MEDIA LITERACY/COMPARISON RANT AT THE END 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍
PHASE??? It didn't end that long ago!! Aaaaaaa. In any case, I am glad x')
WAIT! KREHEE! PRINCESS TUTU! I LOVE THAT ANIME!
Well in addition to similar starting point, they have similar martial aptitude.
Zuko is a great infitrater and knows how to use twin blades. Hunter way of fighting is in close quarter.
While I feel it's less of a big thing for Zuko, because he's a decent firebender, it's highlighted by contrasting him with Azula who's a prodigy.
Hunter is the only one in the serie to use close-quarter combat, and when he has access to magic only use it to inhance it, while everyone else is used to fighting in range.
That being said, it would be baffling to only use this argument for saying that Hunter = Zuko, which I'm not saying, and it only occured to me because I find Hunter's fighting style cool and I remember someone pointing out that Zuko is relly good with swords and stealth.
Those are interesting observations! We actually have a meta on Hunter's fighting style over on our tumblr if you're interested, where we touch on similar things :D
Okay, this entire video is amazing
But im definitely adding "M'Creature" to my vocab.
once again an amazing video with nuanced deep dive, maaaaan I love all the added context of them, and the final thoughts
Can't believe I missed live by only a few hours :'(
There's always next time! And the video isn't going anywhere, so please enjoy at your convenience :D
God i never even watched avatar yet felt like i did with your description of the world, your voice is like hypnotizing for me to belive i know what your saying lol XD
your thoughts on redemption were interesting and well thought out
this video is literally amazing, truly helps get a new understanding and appreciation of the characters
I am happy both stories exist bc i need both to be seen so i can explain what happened to me to people easier. Theyre both lovely characters. :o)
Love how you use edits and visuals to exemplify your points ❤ including the humorous ones
The Hedgehog is a wonderful editor, I'm so glad you like the work!
I love all your videos, they make me think without feeling bad/melancholic.
In my mind they are so clearly not in the same category, I had never even clocked those similarities before this video 😅
Same, when I saw people comparing them my first thought was genuine confusion
hiii :3 cant wait to watch you talk about these two beans
This is one of the first videos I wanted to make, we've BEEN WAITING
oh i am SO looking forward to this one 🔥
I thought similar meant they aren’t exactly the same
Exactly!!!
@@idlescreeyou also forgot Zuko tried to fight a water bender during the full moon and lost
Awesome video!
this is just gonna sound like me gushing about this channel, because i am, but the absolutely gorgeously observed and thought about aspects of every character you talk about is SO refreshing!! it feels like finding an oasis of media literacy after being stranded in the desert of lukewarm, dare i say obvious, takes. i especially adore your view on hunter; i honestly never wouldve compared these two, theyre so different in their own rights and im glad its being cleared up.
all i can say is thank you for gracing us with your insights and feeding our starving selves with knowledge and perception skills because it is *awfully* needed :p /pos keep on doing what youre doing, i love your content!!
Another great analysis and I loved the idea of taking all the different characters with a similar origin and putting them together. It highlighted your point really well. Also M'Creature had me dead. 😭
Well, they have their similarities but they're not exact copies of each other
(No pun intended)
15:58 Keep in mind Luz, Amity AND Eda offered their support to Hunter before Belos tried to off him (which he all refused) but it took Willow & Gus literally seeking him out before he would accept any form of support - so he had opportunities for a bigger support system but it can take a long time before abuse victims will accept any of it 😔
So happy you’re still making TOH content ❤ It’s what made me subscribe in the first place a year ago
I'm so glad! We also don't plan to stop! Truly our 1-2 videos a month thing is mostly because most of the team works full time. We have plenty of Owl House ideas still in the can, and we're getting to them as fast as we can, but if you wanna help us make more faster, please consider our Patreon if you can spare a buck or two!
THIS! Thank you!
Like I'm seriously so tired of people saying Hunter is Zuko's copy. While surface-level similarities are there, much like how both apples and lemons are fruits, they are still different once you get to the bottom of what they are.
Hunter himself also shares plenty of similarities with characters like Azula, Toph, or Sokka, but even those similarities are surface-level with the exclusion of Toph who rather isn't as obvious first pick but that's what makes it work.
Zuko’s story is a recovery arc
great video as ever! a video idea i'd personally wanna see is who is worse: belos or ozai?
Ironically, the title/premise of this video made me realize how similar they are
Never clicked for me how similar these scar-bois with daddy issues are 😅
Not gonna lie, I genuinely wouldn't have thought people were comparing them if I didnt see a post about it and I was like, wut. But in any case this particular video was a really fun exercise in general and helped me appreciate the differences while wrestling a bit with what we think of as similarity. I'm still kind of thinking about it to be honest, especially with respect to "what makes me like a certain 'type' of character? What do those characters actually have in common in terms of personality, story, aesthetics? Portrayal? etc
i have nothing to really add except to say that i am infatuated with the narration. bat and bird, (not too sure who did this one or the other video i watched), you are incredible. you bring so much life to these videos and honestly, it's the best narration i've ever heard, in anything i've watched. just the way you deliver lines, in terms of tone, expression, cadence, etc. it's just perfect and such a pleasure to listen to
19:14 i've replayed this about 10x at least
Wow thanks, that's a super high compliment! You'll always know which screeture is talking by what sprite is being used, or which one of us is in the box on the thumbnail. Really glad you enjoy the delivery!!
This makes me think that hunter wasn’t supposed to be the golden gaurd yet, but that belos had to pivet to using him because of an exterior reason. Things like his health, what’s currently going on in the boiling iles, or something similar.
It would make sense given that he’s so inexperienced and young
Such a beautiful video.
Zuko is like the world telling him that serve the fire nation is his goal
Hunter is just manipulated by Belos just like how he manipulated people around him
23:13 Hunter also did threaten to umm… KILL Luz!
Ultimately I don’t know if he would’ve gone through with it but for me, that was the shittiest thing he did overall to a person just trying to reach out to him (as Luz had also attempted prior) & it really baffled me how Amity could’ve just let something like that go 😕 especially after Hunter had the utter audacity to ‘thank’ her for something he forced her into doing & ultimately giving Belos the Titan’s Blood.
If Season 3 hadn’t been cut short, maybe we could’ve gotten an ep where Amity lets him know that while she knows the path of trying to prove yourself, she needed time to forgive him for threatening the one she loved most & Hunter would accept that & apologise to both Amity & Luz for turning down their help & making it up to them by helping save the Demon Realm.
He went to insane lengths to avoid killing an animal. I have a tough time with the idea that Hunter would seriously follow through on a fatal threat unless he was under a truly extreme form of duress or pressure (which can and would include Belos hypothetically putting him in a situation where he felt like he had to, but at this stage of Hunter's life and emotional development to me Belos would have to be warming him up to the action using context, cues and intense pressure). And in all of his early Luz encounters, he 100% could have taken his staff from her if he was willing to use violence. All of Hunting Palisman happened because he didn't WANT to hurt her.
The Eclipse Lake thing also brings back that notion of duress. It is a super shitty thing he did, and I agree with you it was awful! Thanking her was pathetic, if sincere...but he truly believed he was as good as dead if he didn't. And even then, he avoided doing Amity serious harm. Neither of them really wanted to hurt each other.
That being said I wonder what things would have looked like if we had an entire season 3. So many possibilities...thank god for fanfic honestly. Thank you for your thoughtful comment!!!
@@idlescree only too glad to discuss topics like this!
I’m in agreement in doubting Hunter could go through with the threat of actually killing someone, though Amity was spooked enough to believe it was a possibility, otherwise she wouldn’t have handed the Titan’s Blood over.
The main problem I had was that just the threat of harming someone else’s loved one is still extremely hurtful & I reckon Amity would still feel betrayed that someone she saw her old self in, even went this far after she tried helping him. But as I said before, I reckon they would’ve had a chance to address any bad blood between them & show Hunter making amends with both Amity & Luz, had Season 3 gotten the full green light.
🎶Cause I’m just a teenage person creature, baby🎶
Love your owl house videos ❤
Have you ever considered looking at the show from a failure POV? As in, because it was cut, the show is now full of loose ends and inconclusive mysteries (like the batqueen).
Note, not at the fault of the writers or anything, but from the perspective of looking at the story on its own, stand alone, outside the context of Disney's decapitation.
I often think of my toddler nephew, who's never going to have the context of why there's so many unresolved mysteries and narrative dead-ends, and imagine him looking at TOH someday.
My sister watched TOH and asked me why it had so many unanswered questions.
Anyway, it got me thinking about how, in some ways, TOH isn't satisfactory as a completed story, even if it's subjectively one of my most favourite shows.
It has a lot of mysteries, questions, plotines, character arcs, etc that only got halfway or mentioned.
There are so many hints to a bigger thing!
In videogame terms, I don't think we got the "true ending" route/playthings. But the "neutral ending" route, Haha. That's how it feels.
I guess all that mystery is what keeps us fans (or me anyway) gnawing at our fingers as we stare at the conspiracy board all "what does it mean?!"
LoL❤
(Edit for spelling errors)
I've got a lot of feelings about that! I think the Horny Toad, who guested on our finale reaction video said it best "This wasn't a finale--it was a summary of a finale."
We've also talked a little bit on our tumblr about this very query! I encourage you to take a look at that at your convenience, but the TLDR is essentially--there are already a lot of people who are going to come at things from a perspective on "how x failed", and as of right now, that topic doesn't energize me (the Bat) very much. They are certainly important and good to discuss, and again there's going to be people out the wazoo discussing it. Day to day I'd much rather talk about the things that DO excite me. As a person, I actually struggle VERY hard against the tides of pessimism and cynicism, and the exercise and work of examining the good of a work, or talking about themes/impact is more invigorating to me.
We may do more salty analysis in the future. Lord knows we have a lot of things we're working on right now! I have shows that I really love that are genuinely mediocre at best and those shows have an incredible power! But for now with Owl House...I'm reluctant to touch on the failures right now. Enough people will be doing that with a glad heart x'D
augh ive been so excited for this one and it's hereeeee... perfect timing because i just rewatched ATLA this week lol. (19 episodes in one day someone please check on me)
my hands arent exactly clean on this front seeing as i made a 4-way zuko/hunter/todoroki/adrien agreste venn diagram myself a few weeks ago but i think this was a much needed discussion lol. thankfully i havent really seen anyone claiming their arcs are Exactly The Same or anything but yeah there really isn't much to say for them beyond a few surface level comparisons... zuko's story is about genuine redemption after doing awful things, and hunter's is about escaping abuse !! reshaping your identity vs creating one altogether !! similar origins but nuanced conclusions i love writing !!!!
Yeah no I reallly dont want anyone to hear this and think that I think those kinds of diagrams are like. Bad. They're fun and funny and reductive but that's the point. They're fun! My big anxiety is that if that's the only conversation being had or thrown around all the nuance gets lost, people start to forget, and confuse the fun surface shift with GENUINE 1:1 comparisons and thats nonsense. It robs us of the things we love!!!
@@idlescree YEAH NO OFC i dont think you came across like that at all fwiw it's human nature to go "thing is like other thing woah!" lol.
honestly-and this bears no relation to anything-i have to wonder if the Funny Comparisons To Lack Of Nuance Pipeline has any correlation to the whole like. fanon vs canon and forgetting how the character actually is debacle?? like you get so caught up in going haha hunter and zuko facial scar gang !! that the two meld together in your mind and you open google docs and suddenly hunter is brooding out of nowhere. like no girl all bad but sad boy is NOT the same ‼ cultural anthropology i fucking guess
I hope I can make it for the premiere! :D
I missed it :(
We hope you can too!!! We love seeing you all at the premieres ; w ;
Rip
Haven’t watched the video yet but I always saw it this way.
Zuko was a kid with a lot of problems who did bad things and to a degree was bad at first, but slowly learned to be good with the help of his uncle’s unrelenting support
Hunter is a kid who has a lot of problems but never really was bad, even when he was fighting Eda and Luz he easily could have killed them and killed the Selkidomus himself. Despite it seeming like a lot of hassle, he actually goes out of his way basically to not hurt them despite his threats.
Btw really fucked that belos basically sent hunter on a mission to make getting pieces of his own replacement easier.
But yeah, the difference is Zuko was taught to be bad and he learned to be good, while hunter was taught to be treated bad and learned he deserves people who are good.
I disagree with Zuko being at the top of the food chain, that is the fire nation. With his interaction with Zhao, it becomes pretty clear, that Zuko as a banished prince is just above a normal fire nation soldier, because even as just a commander Zhao treats Zuko like shit and even starts a life and death duel with him. Zuko maybe officially the heir to the throne, but that didn't stop Zhao from trying to kill him twice, so it was an open secret, that azula would be the real heir. It is like Zhao said, Zuko had no allies, no home and his father didn't want him and this was when he was just exiled, not hunted by the fire nation as a traitor. So i don't think, that Zuko was really in any better position than hunter.
I maintain my position on account that high ranking people kill each other all the time, and if it wasn't for the fact Zuko was the prince Zhao wouldn't have bothered or taken such pique with it all to begin with. Fighting with someone without any rank at all would be beneath Zhao's station, and that's something, as an ambitious man, he cares about.
Zhao is also wrong (indeed, he was saying that stuff to Zuko in order to intimidate him). Zuko does have Iroh, and in failing to account for that, failed in his objective.
That being said, you're welcome to disagree, and I appreciate you taking the time to comment!!
@@idlescree But Zuko isn't just any highranking offical, he is offically the next head of state, as the heir and firstborn son to Ozai. When Iroh lost his firstborn son, Ozai asked that Azulon changes the line of succession, so the death of Zuko would normally be a huge deal and should have grave consequences for Zhao. But Zhao seems to have enough reasons to believe he will not face them, what would normally be considered a direct attack to the monarchy.
Also Iroh isn't a huge ally for zuko, regarding his claim on the throne. He is somewhat respected, but his glory days as dragon of the west are over and he is mostly seen as just odd. If Aang never surfaced, Zuko would had no chance in claiming his throne over Azula.
For a crown prince he is really at the bottom.
That Gatomon jumpscared me 😂❤
(writing this before finishing the video)
Both characters have a "father" that they seek the approval of which they try to get through their conflicts with the protagonists. Both start off doing things specifically told to them. They start to differ here with what and why they are told what to do.
Zuko is sent to capture the avatar simply to get rid of him with a single seemingly unobtainable goal which Zuko thinks will restore his honor when completed.
Hunter however is sent to an assortment of missions with smaller purposes for a goal he doesn't yet know with the idea that this is what he is supposed to do as the Golden Guard.
Over his arch, Zuko is struggling with learning what honor means to him, leading him to his eventual full redemption.
Hunter's arch focuses more on the development of disillusionment from the order he blindly followed, learning that he shouldn't be a part of the system.
The key difference being in how they escape their roots.
Hunter escapes his connections to the Emperor's Coven because he starts to learn the reality of the coven and that he was always lied to.
Zuko escapes his connections to the Fire Nation because he's actively looking to accomplish his goal of recovering his honor. Zuko also already knows what his Nation is doing, but is originally okay with it.
In how they join the protagonists, Zuko actively tries to join them and only succeeds after proving himself, but Hunter gets invited by the protagonists, not needing to fully prove himself.
Zuko finally gets full almost explicit forgiveness from his protagonists, but Hunter doesn't get it quite so distinctly. This is possibly partially due to TOH getting cut short so he didn't get to have as many one-on-one character moments much of the cast, addressing his past actions for near-explicit forgiveness. (Most of his forgiveness is a little more implicit)
Zuko is a redeemed villain, Hunter is a reformed cultist.
"the sponsor of this video... ME!!!" absolutely sent me
This joke was specifically the Bird's idea, he's one of the funniest people alive
As Charlie (HAZBIN HOTEL) once said “It starts with Sorry.”
Who are you AND What do you want? Are you a Vorlon Shadow!?!?!
I think the opening is rather misleading, treating either show like lightning in a bottle, the first of their kind things when stuff like Gargoyles, X-Men, Steven Universe, Gravity Falls and the like preceded things like ATLA and Owl House.
I really do like your line regarding how fanon often waters stuff down and how one shouldn't equate things because of some surface traits, that is very solid. Also god damn their outline for how that comparison works "There was once an emperor person ETC" and then showing all the other characters that applies to was so good, kudos!
The breakdown on Zuko in his villain era is legit excellent, way too many people ignore his frankly violent temper and elitist attitude. I think the rest was a bit... Charitable, I get the premise, I get the themes being aimed for, I just don't think the execution was as good as described & Azula was very pointedly not cruel when bringing him home. The elements on the scar and lightning bending was solid.
The aspects of childhood VS perceived adulthood in both series and what that says thematically is really cool. Also wow, god damn, it is super easy to forget how utterly fucked up Hunters life is/was, but yeah this is a marvelous breakdown of his character and how he is so utterly different from Zuko in terms of position in the world at large, the perception of the villain and general temperament.
I really like conclusion showing how much they frankly contrast one another.
That bit about grouping all the redeemed villains together and them not getting why they are together is freaking hilarious XD
Also the mis-remembering aspect was so good, again fanon is a huge problem and frankly people really should go back to the source material sometimes for a refresher.
ATLA came out before Steven Universe and Gravity Falls by a at least 5 years. [avatar in 2005, steven in 2013, gravity in 2012.] Gargoyles and X-Men are from the 90's. In fact, Steven universe started off as episodic like adventure time before they started an actual story because that's what the network wanted.
I didn't get the feeling she was saying it was like lightening in a bottle, but the lack of variety. Many american cartoons didn't have over arching stories. They didn't do story telling for the most part. Anime did. Comic book shows would tend to because they had a story already. But many cartoons in the 90's and early 00's weren't story/character driven. ATLA came out when that first started to shift with more than just two or three cartoons. Another note is that gargoyles rarely came on normal disney. I don't remember seeing it at all on the disney channel. It came out on toon disney. And a lot toon disney shows had more of a story driven cartoon lineup. Darkwing dunk comes to mind. But again, they felt episodic a little bit like crime shows are where they're self contained but there's pieces of a season arch underneath that you don't really need to worry about.
ATLA was completely story driven. None of the episodes are truly self-contained. It is very much like an anime in the sense of storytelling.
@@toothless3835 ... ATLA is not some special snowflake, serialized shows that dealt with heavy topics had been around for and were still being produced before during and after ATLA.
26:44 Wouldn’t Sasha be the more appropriate “Amphibia” comparison here, though?
There's an irony in me finding that video a few days after coming to the conclusion that Amity and Pacifica from Gravity Falls are basically the same character lmao
Yeah takes like that are why we made this adflkjdlkjg
DIGIMON MENTION !!!
Digimon Adventure was FORMATIVE for me, and I to this day remember the day it premiered in the US
5:55
What are you looking at?
Nothing is happening here
Ignore my leaking eyes
These are frustration tears!
Give me some breathing room
I'm not here on display
I am a strong, strong girl
And I am here to say
Well I'm not cryin', I'm not sobbin', I'm not blubberin', no
I'm not weeping, I am keeping it all under control
I swear it's not as bad as it appears, heh
Guys, I swear these are frustration tears
I'm not bawlin', caterwaulin', not boo-hooin', not cryin'
Not lamenting, I'm just venting, I'm not sad, I am fine
I'm just feeling regrets and secret fears
That are, you know, totally unrelated
To my frustration tears!
Didn't lose it, I can prove it
Do you wanna inspect my eyes?
I'm a soldier, and you know
A worthy soldier never cries
Oh gosh, here it comes
I'm not crying, I'm not sobbing, I'm not blubbering, no
I'm not weeping, I'm just keeping it under control
This is my deepest, darkest fear
For you to see me cry
Frustration tears!
Ohhh, ohhh
My face is so ugly right now