RZ seems to be really into the historic traditional aspects of the church, which is good, but its like he cannot understand the personal aspect at all. If I have a female pastor calling unborn children "parasites." I am not going to stay and be in fellowship with that church for the sake of the building being pretty. I will call everyone in that church to leave immediately and fellowship with actual believers. And then RZ name-calls every single believing methodist who left after the mainline went sideways, I don't care if it's "retreatist" bro, I'm not staying in a non christian church. At this point I might as well go to a synagouge on saturdays, or a mosque, maybe then I can reconquista those buildings. I loved RZ's early videos, he knows his stuff, he is a bible believing christian who ultimately wants whats best for christendom, and I wont put him down for that, but at some point the buildings are just buildings. They will crumble and decay like everything else. We need to evangelize to mainline liberals the best we can.
He doesn't tell people to stay in completely theologically liberal churches, but to join the conservative ones that are a part of the mainline denominations. Also, it's extremely faulty logic to think "I don't like it, so I am not going" the church is for serving God, not your desires, and many Christians have been tortured and killed, whereas a woman called unborn children "parasites." Don't look at your personal experience, trust in God and work through it. If we want to make Christianity dominant in the culture and to continue doing God's work, we need to stop being babies.
Thanks for the fair critique: a few brief responses - the map is mostly based on word-of-mouth recommendations so sometimes we miss details because we're fed bad information - Machen expressed retreatist ideas before getting kicked out - You make good points, but I just don't see any alternative for rebuilding institutional Protestantism
If we assume for argument's sake that rebuilding institutional Protestantism should be a priority, the strongest horse for that right now is probably the Christian Classical Education movement, which has broad ecumenical appeal but is virtually impossible to pursue through the mainline churches. Have you heard of Luther Classical College?
"Do not be deceived: bad company corrupts good character." 1 Cor 15:33 And Paul says this in connection with those who deny the resurrection. Let's not be deceived.
I think RZ is still figuring things out, and I wish him the best. I was a UMC pastor and/or church staffer for 20 years. There was a well-funded and well organized effort for decades to renew the UMC, but eventually the leaders decided it was no longer worth the effort and our time and energy was better spent building new institutions. The new GMC is well on its way. I’m an ACNA priest now, and I may live long enough to see these new churches to actually surpass the size and reach of the old dying institutions.
What has always rubbed me wrong about Redeemed Zoomer's Reconquista is how focused it is on prestige, power, and resources with a monetary value--mainly church buildings. All of these things will perish on the final day. I feel bad because I think he got too big of an audience too fast. His initial idea for the Reconquista is a novel one worth considering, it isn't laughable at face value. It points out some very valid concerns with evangelical splits-namely the feeling of disconnect from church history. Roman Catholic apologists have latched onto this, "your church was founded in 1974, our church was founded in 33 AD." I feel bad seeing Lutherans who seem to need to prove their historicity and worry themselves over "apostolic succession" in a Roman understanding or when they feel the need to label themselves "evangelical catholic". If you are confident that our beliefs are catholic, that is universal, there is no need to use a label to denote it as such. It gives me the same feeling I have when I drive by an "apostolic temple church". His Reconquista also has a naive view of church history in America. He acts as if there were one church of each denominational family and all others split off of it. This is only really true of Anglicanism. In reality, American church history is full of mergers, splits, realignments, and temporary fellowship agreements. There were dozens of Lutheran churches that merged into the few today. If Reconquista happened in 1988, which Lutheran church would he say to join? LCA or ALC?
@@RevancedBurner RZ doesn't understand Lutheranism, and I don't think he would be one anytime soon. As for the name, "Evangelical Catholic", that is the true name of the Lutheran Church, the name "Lutheran" is just a derogatory name given by Rome to those who agreed with Luther, the name just got stuck there, even Dr. Jordan Cooper rejects it. Btw are you Lutheran? And about Apostolic Succession, I don't think its about Apostolic Teaching per se, we do have Apostolic Teaching, I think the concern is more about having a valid ministry and sacramental authority. I do believe the restoring the Episcopate would be the best for the Evangelical Catholic Church.
This was an awesome response that fleshed out some thoughts Ive had when listening to RZ. I found RZs channel when I was Baptist/nondenom. From listening to him and Allie Beth Stuckey I became a reformed Baptist. Then became LCMS Lutheran. I feel as if against all odds I didn't become a Presbyterian because of how influential the reformed crowd is on the internet! The small Chatechism cleared all of that up for me 😊. Anyways, this was a great response. God bless.
You are correct that these denominations will not take kindly to conservatives seeking ordination with the purpose of overturning their hegemony. Getting seminary students to ordination without being discovered to be part of the Reconquista movement is probably the largest challenge that the Reconquista movement faces.
RZ saw some Catholic and Eastern Orthodox memes, and thought the exterior was the essence. Who cares if the building is pretty if you have female pastors, immediately destroying any sense of tradition.
@@PresbyterianStandardI don’t think he’s every claimed Presbyterians believe in baptismal regeneration. He has always said they believe in baptismal efficacy, which is true
@ can you link me some videos with time stamps? Because he’s made the distinction. From my understanding of reformed theological, baptismal efficacy is regenerative , but that it is only effective for the elect, rather than an objective means of grace attached to the act itself.
Dr. Adam Koontz gave a good critique recently mostly based on the fact that the governance isn’t just changeable from the grassroots. As you point out, becoming a majority conservative congregation doesn’t change seminary ordination and admissions.
It was a good critique! I was actually the question asker. By the time the episode was out we had already completed the script to our video but it was nice to see some overlap in perspective!
This video completely changed my view on this. I'd love to see RZ address a lot of these points in a response video. I think it's stupid to retreat, but leaving due to stuff like false doctrine or acceptance of the letters league (as I call them) or female pastors is perfectly valid, and not retreating unless you are on the verge of retaking the institution.
Thanks for this video. I am going through catechesis in the LCMS and I kind of felt guilty for not wanting to join the ELCA because of RZ's videos. I remember in one of his videos, he mentioned how a woman at a PCUSA camp he went to called unborn babies parasites or something. To be honest, I can't imagine fellowshipping in a church body where that type of statement is tolerated. I do like RZ's channel but I think I ultimately disagree with him on this
The thing is he has admitted that the LCMS is basically a conservative mainline and that it’s basically just as viable to join it. That’s what I did. I was confirmed Palm Sunday of 2023. I hope you’ll join us as well friend! God bless!
@@gustavusadolphus4344 I guess if the ELCA church was not horrible you could try to go there. But that’s probably not the case. And as the video highlighted, doing so would put you in fellowship with literal heretics. If there isn’t a better Lutheran church around you could try to have an LCMS parish or a parish of a similar denomination planted. I’ve heard of people reaching out to confessional Lutheran denominations to try to get that done. If I weren’t able to go to the LCMS church near me I would possibly go to one of the two continuing Anglican churches nearby. I know some folks there that hold to a Lutheran understanding of the sacraments. If I couldn’t do that I’d probably go to one of the CREC churches nearby. I’d have more issues with them but at least they’re liturgical and sacramental. If I couldn’t do that I’d try to find a somewhat decent Presbyterian church from another denomination or even a Methodist church that wasn’t terrible, but by then I’m going to have some serious issues with the doctrine and practice. So if I couldn’t go to a Lutheran parish I’d try to find the closest thing to it, which is probably Anglicanism.
He just recently put out a video wherein he referred to J Greshem Machen as the "patron saint of the retreatist mentality" because Machen was fired from a PCUSA seminary for being conservative and then subsequently founded the OPC denomination. Apparently in RZ's mind he should've joined another mainline protestant denomination and tried to change that instead.
OPC is fundamentalist, not just conservative or confessional. The PCUSA could become as conservative as the PCA is now and OPC types still wouldn't be happy there.
The OPC and the PCA are sister denominations in NAPARC, plenty of cross traffic between them, plenty of ministers have been ordained in both denominations, if by some miracle the PCUSA actually became uniformly conservative and confessional (not neo-orthodox) and joined NAPARC it would be much the same.
There are times when it is appropriate to attack a fortified enemy position. It is foolish for the rank and file to do this without a comanding officer
RZ's reconquista project makes the most sense if you have an American Protestant view of church fellowship. If I were a Church of the Nazarene layman I'm sure I'd be fine with double dipping membership in the Nazarene church and the UMC or UCC in support of Reconquista. Go to my Nazarene congregation at 9:15AM and then straight to the nearest moderate mainline congregation of similar background for their 11 service. The Lutheran view of communion and fellowship precludes me trying to do the same thing as a Lutheran with an ELCA, NALC, or Lutheran Brethren church.
I appreciate how both you and RZ have fairly responded to each other and in the spirit of brotherhood in Christ give just critiques. Thank you for your humbless and peacful dialoge
The most dangerous part about RZs channel is that he teaches young Christians to value institutional power over the marks of a true church. This isn’t intentional on his part, but it’s obviously the case. Every RZ follower I’ve met in person (3 people) is under 25-two of them are trad-Romanist, and the other is EO.
No one -- who actually knows Koine Greek -- denies that 'baptizo' literally means 'to immerse'. We deny that the literal sense tells us all that we need to know about proper Christian baptism. After all, the Israelites were not literally baptized into Moses.
@@noxvenit That has got to be the most ignorant explanations I've ever heard. The Isrealites were literally baptized into Moses by the cloud and the sea (1 Cor 10:2) Jesus was literally immersed, and the Jews were literally immersed in the mikvah. If the very used used tell us "how" to do something, and you changed it, how is that in any way "proper"? How can sprinkling be regards as "buried with Christ"? If you have to go thru your gymnastics of an explanation, guess now we know how you ignore the rest of scripture
Im officially done supporting Reconquista. I had an interview to go to Dubuque seminary(as recommended by Dr. Richard Burnett who was introduced to me by RZ) and I'm on my path to converting to lutheranism and going to Concordia Seminary instead. The LCMS is worth saving more than the PCUSA, because the LCMS worse problem is going big Eva.
@@ChaoMung-t9u There normally is an option, especially if you're willing to help build a small-but-growing congregation. For instance, here in Norway (and Iceland!) we have The Lutheran Church in Norway and Iceland (LKN). Many other European countries have equivalents.
What to do when your only local Lutheran church is ELCA, Presbyterian PCUSA, and Anglican Episcopal? What do you do when all your historical protestant churches are mainline?
That is definitely something we should be doing. One issue is that it is seriously questionable whether we have the knowledge, skilled labor, and simple will to build things like that anymore.
@@unit2394 It's not that we're incapable of building new things. If you look at the Catholic cathedrals built in Europe from the Middle Ages. Those building are absolutely beautiful. But what we fail think about is those buildings took half a century (in many cases) to build and cost absolute fortunes. Ask yourself what is more important. Building a very expensive and beautiful building to have your mass/services in? Or taking that money and using it to improve the lives of the community and in particular give hands-up to the poor and needy so they can prosper and share wealth/lift the lives of more people who need it? Sure, I'd love to build nice buildings. But at the end of the day, the building is not "the Church." It's just a building. The Church IS the people (God's people) and there are a lot of people suffering (who are also God's people). I think it's immoral to spend fortunes on buildings, when there are truly people that need our help right now and that money could make a difference.
I want to thank this channel for putting into words and videos what I've always felt, but due to having a mental disorder, was never able to articulate properly. While I'm not in agreement with everything you guys say across your videos, I just want to thank you for this one. God bless.
@@iqcnpjp9per Merriam-Webster dictionary: to assert the contrary of, take issue with. I believe my use of the word contradict fits this definition very well. “A Lutheran quoting so much Calvin to assert the contrary of what a Calvinist believes in amazed me today”. I am not a middle schooler btw, maybe you should check the dictionary before replying to people with an arrogant tone.
@fab7an758 you prove yourself right by defining contradict with contrary? at least read the thing before you copy-paste and embarrass yourself. i'm sorry to call you a middle schooler. please study well next year in 4th grade
@@iqcnpjp9 besides English is not even my first language. But I can go access an online dictionary, unlike you apparently who can’t tell the difference between a noun and a verb.
EO here, but for what it’s worth, I think it would behoove Protestant conservatives to take notes from the only time a “reconquista” has ever been conducted with a moderate degree of success: the Southern Baptist conservative resurgence. Few people today realize just how liberal southern baptists used to be until Patterson and Co. turned the entire denomination around. And, of course, it was done top down, not bottom-up as Zoomer seems to recommend. They systematically and cunningly managed to oust all of the seminary presidents, fire a huge number of liberal subversives, and installed conservatives in all positions of power. While the ability of the SBC to withstand the coming decades has yet to be ascertained, their current conservatism is a remarkable example of what happens when people properly understand the role of power and know that culture is created top-down.
It’s important to note that the SBC conservative resurgence in the late 80s was essentially a copy and paste of the LCMS’s retaking at the 1973 synodical conference (causing “the walkout”). It was absolutely a top down reversal where the conservative synod president fired the seminary boards after denying the results of an investigation proving liberalism was rampant in the seminaries. In the 1977 conference, several district presidents (“bishops” if you will) were fired because they tried hiring the walkout pastors anyway. Ironically for RZ’s cause, the LCMS is the best example of a recent “reconqista” or “preservation” of a denomination, and it only could have happened from the top down.
Zoomer says nothing about the alliance between the Presbyterian Church of Brazil and Freemasonry. He loves Calvin, but says nothing about the errors of Calvinism.
Could you expound on this? From what I know, there is a official "Reformed" view on Freemasonry (which you would expect from any Protestant branch on an issue that arose post confessions. For example, here in the US the CRC is staunchly opposed to the Mason, while the RCA has typically be okay with them.
I've literally seen people start coming to my Lutheran church because of Zoomer. Anyone calling people to go to church, care about theology, and fight for their respective synods is an ally in my book. This video had better be a thankful and glowing ecumenical review with some constructive criticism.
Yes, he certainly does. I know I have direct messaged him a few times about his map. One time was to tell him that the First Presbyterian Church he had on his map near me as a 1/5 was gay affirming and had a pastor talking about deconstructing his faith after his divorce. He said he’d take it down but it’s still up there. I suppose he forgot. I’ve also found other examples like this video mentions where churches on the map are much more liberal than they’re made out to be.
Yes, our LCMS church is not on the list, but a closed LCMS church in our town is. I have reached out via UA-cam comments with no luck, he needs a way to give feedback more smoothly, because it’s a good resource if run well
@@perilousrange Should one truly drive that far for church? I feel like you are sacrificing the community and are not strengthening a body that serves your local community...
Besides driving that far will limit your ability to participate in the church outside of the Sunday morning... The Church is called to be more then that
@@gustavusadolphus4344 My local area is Pentecostal and Methodist. I'm not interested in what they have to offer. And regarding my ability to participate outside of services; I routinely drive much greater distance than that, depending on where I'm needed. I'm in the NC hurricane cleanup zone a lot these days.
Interesting stuff. After seminary (decades ago) I left the PC(USA) ordination process, and RZ's reconquista has caught my attention. Ive not finished your lengthy response, but I plan to work through it all.
One thing to note so far: I definitely think that, in our current milieu, the ordination of women is absolutely a moderate position to take. I am a complementarian myself, but that doesn't change the fact that many protestant Christians, including evangelicals, are egalitarian. Descriptively speaking, egalitarianism is simply not a far left wing position.
The expectation of success or failure of the mission (in the long run) will be determined by your eschatology. I agree with your point about women’s ordination but more importantly it’s the hermeneutical axioms behind it that set the trajectory for liberalism. From it also come egalitarianism and the gay theology interpretations of the Bible. I wrote extensively about this in a book titled “Do Not Be Deceived.” One issue not addressed in this video (unless I missed it) is Paul’s epistles to the church at Corinth. The issues in the church are not unlike today, yet Paul didn’t tell everyone to leave and start another congregation down the road. Though he did say they were not to eat with someone who called themselves a Christian yet lived in open rebellion against the law of God (1 Corinthians 5 /Leviticus 28:8).
@@KildaltonTheologicalStudies there is a difference between sin that takes place in a congregation and outright blatant heresy that is infecting an entire denomination. Jesus himself warns us not to follow false teachers who are wolves in sheeps clothing. So the difference is between an institution that is corrupt from the top down and a church that has members engaged in sin that need to be disciplined.
@@TheLutheranDominicI agree but Paul did say THEY were proud of the tolerance of the man’s sin (1 Corinthians 5:6). Eventually if the church in Corinth didn’t repent they would come under the same condemnation of the church in Thyatira (Revelation 2:20.). There was also blatant heresy at Corinth as there were some who denying the resurrection (see chapter 15). If there is a fire in your house you have to make a judgment call, do you pick up a fire extinguisher and fight it or is it so big you get the hell out and call the fire department and perhaps watch it burn?
@@KildaltonTheologicalStudies I think we're fundamentally in agreement. It comes down to a question of degree because of course no church is going to be completely free from sin or false teaching and if we split over everything we'd have absolutely no unity at all.
@@TheLutheranDominicYes, this the dilemma. I am Anglican. The acna split from the episcopal church in 2009 over homosexuality and other issues. However, the acna still allows for each diocese to ordain or not ordain women. I find this unacceptable especially being on a diocese where it is allowed. The opposition to this is gaining momentum. Are we to split again ,fight to bring the acna to reform itself to the biblical standard, or just join the continuing Anglican churches? I am in my 60s and frankly very tired of this. God give me strength!
I find his points interesting. However, I like what Moldbug said about infiltration and conversion. He said that once a system has that happen, it builds an immune system against infiltration. The same thing isn't going to happen again. It would be interesting if a new method of infiltration exists.
@ScholasticLutherans The first Molbug thing anyone should ever read or listen to is his Cathedral argument. He named the collusion between media and academia "The Cathedral."
"attend a liberal church and you'll change the church" meanwhile the thought never seems to cross his mind the opposite might happen as we often see in the political sphere. Worst thing is he promotes this same things for untrained young children going to public schools. Insane and destructive levels of optimism.
@@DrGero15 Very true. Not sure if that plays into his reasoning, but regardless goes to show the real danger such doctrines present not only to your own soul but those of your family as well.
He has repeatedly said the project is not just about retaking the pretty buildings, yet he includes American Baptist Churches USA as one of the mainline denominations that needs to be reconquered. Even though the SBC is far larger, far and away more institutionally poweful and culturally significant, and at least as historically grounded as ABC USA. But the SBC has ugly churches which seems to be the only reason RZ would consider it a priority for Baptists to retake ABC-USA. He once said Lutherans are the least needful of Reconquista because the LCMS is about as institutionally and historically grounded as the ELCA, while the conservative counterparts to the other mainline denominations are all very new and institutionally weak. But that's really only even facially true for Presbyterians and Anglicans. Baptists have the SBC. Wesleyans have the Church of the Nazarene. UCC members can basically just go anywhere.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 My point is, if Lutherans are less needing of Reconquista than Presbyterians or Anglicans because we have the LCMS, Baptists would need it even less than Lutherans because they have the SBC.
@@redeemedzoomer6053the SBC has issues with liberalism (as does the LCMS) just not nearly to the degree of the other mainlines. If you want to be Baptist or Lutheran, shoring up the SBC and LCMS is at least as good of an option as joining an ABCUSA or ELCA church. And yes, there are some nice looking SBC churches.
Please take these criticisms and corrections in the spirit of truth and friendship that they are intended: The ELCA did not split off from the LCMS. The ELCA was the product of a series of mergers in the 20th century culminating in the 1988 merger of the ALC (the merger of the rump of the Synodical Conference) with the LCA (the merger of the General Conference). The ELCA only absorbed a rump faction of the LCMS. There are beautiful historic conservative protestant churches (my home church is one), while they are rare in the presbyterian and episcopal traditions (for reasons you elucidated), they are much more common in the LCMS and SBC. Luther Seminary is the most conservative seminary in the ELCA, and many of the professors do not agree with the ELCA's turn. I know this for a fact by the way. It is the only seminary in the ELCA that has not openly endorsed the sexual revolution. While it is by no means CSFW, you need to give Luther Seminary more credit.
New Christian here... Beautiful traditional buildings and music are not necessary in a Church, but they REALLY add feeling of a respectful place of worship. Most people seeking God for the first time are actually really interested in beautiful, traditional culture at church. So while I place the sermons and doctrine of the church as my first priority, it's really hard to feel like I'm giving God full respect with modern, untraditional music in a white box church. I'm lucky in that my doctrinally correct local church is over 100 years old and is a beautiful, albeit small building. Middle church I guess. I do still frequent the Methodist service at the huge beautiful church in the city, despite their failings in doctrine. I wish the two could be combined, but both church communities support me frequenting both.
I don’t wanna be quick to call anyone idolatrous for wanting to worship in a beautiful building or be a part of a strong protestant institution but at the end of the day, I have to wonder why worshipping on this mountain or that mountain is necessary for rebuilding protestant institutions. The disciples had to leave a strongly established covenant institution in order to build Christendom from nothing. We’ve been here before and running back to Jerusalem to cling to the temple will only lead to you being surrounded by the Romans. Pardon my hyperbole
15:53 there is a saying: do not holler till you get your collar. If conservative seminary students are seeking theology degrees and ordination within broadly denominations, arguing with Seminary staff is stoopid. Of course you're going to put a target on your back! If you infiltrate the lion's den you gotta be smart about it
RZ is ethnically Jewish, became a believer that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and is now a reformed Presbyterian ( PCUSA )Calvinist. Since he is a generational “Boomer,” I think his battle cry is consistent: “reformed and always reforming” !
Retreatist or reconqista, argument this, argument that, tactics here, tactics there, Pro's and Con's... What is _God_ calling you to do? Maybe he wants you to be a Witness to the truth inside a liberal Church, maybe to reconquer, to call judgement or maybe to just save a single soul. Maybe he wants you in a confessional Church to help prepare the Sunday morning Service, sing in the Choir, or maybe plant a new Church. I don't know if people might idolize buildings, but you are right to point out the danger. And you are absolutely right that our callings are not all the same. 🙂
RZ never said women’s ordination wasnt a serious issue. He said it isn’t a heresy. If it was heresy, it would contradict the trinity, Gospel, or moral law. Although Paul very clearly said women shouldn’t be elders, it doesn’t qualify as heresy. It is a heterodox. Besides that all of the other critiques are valid, but I would still probably side with RZ though.
Lord, grant me prudence. How pleasant would Life be if one was able to discern what each situation calls for according to Thy Word; and yet if I were too wise, I would not need Thee; I would not come to Thy throne out of hunger for righteousness. Grant me the prudence, the discernment, that I am due--solely out of Thy Grace, and The Grace to lay my Isaac (beauty in church exteriors) down at the moment of testing. Amen.
Machen started Westminster Seminary to counter neo orthodoxy liberalism, not as a retreatist, but to preserve Biblical historical reformed creedal “Calvinism” ( Geneva, Belgic, Westminster, Scottish, etc.) or Sola Scriptura !
I think the problem is his Reformed theology. He doesn't worry about souls being lost since the Elect will be unfailingly saved, and can't be lost. If one is reprobate, one is not able to convert anyway so no loss there.
PCUSA has conservatives and moderates outside of RZ's movement. I have nothing in common with them except for our love for Christ. You don't have to join his movement. The PCUSA has issues no doubt, nobody disagrees with that. I have to disagree with you about congregations not being able to remove their pastors in the PCUSA, woke pastors have been removed from conservative/moderate congregations. At the end of the day, we can call each other apostates by different standards we hold.
I would never abandon my country, but people sure are free and easy about abandoning something far more important. There is a streak of cowardice that runs through the conservative mind. Progs love to agitate and fight, but conservatives just flee.
This is an incredibly well made video. You have managed to compile all my thoughts and cirticisms of him too. RZ focuses way too much on church beauty that he overlooks so many other essentials. I did not realise that he was going to a PCA church as well, that just completely spits in the face of this movement. RZ is a very well learned man that shoukd be able to stand firm on the doctrine and gospel of christ, and if he finds it a struggle to do so, then he is inviting others whose faith might not be as solid to fall. I really appreciate RZ's onkine contributions, however his view of "retreatism," and his obsession of the outqard beauty of churches is incredibly misguided and does not help evangelise the world as much as he holds weight to.
I had a cordial discussion with a Danish Lutheran (Truth Unto Godliness) on his channel about Christianity. I wish [real] Christians the best of luck in kicking leftism out of your Churches. With that said, I am skeptical, as universalism and egalitarianism are the logical conclusions of Christian premises.
There are things I respect about neo-pagans, and I certainly hold them in higher regard than I would atheists. I have heard several neo-pagans say similar things regarding Christianity giving rise to egalitarianism, though many of these arguments seem a bit tenuous. Frequently they make their case based on some variant of Nietzschean slave morality, but I can't say that I find these arguments convincing. Several pagans have argued that Christianity made the West weak, though I find it difficult to believe that this is specifically the fault of Christianity. As for myself, all of my ancestors that I know of have been Christians. Should I dishonor the ancestors I actually know so that I can 'honor' my hypothetical ancestors?
@@chemnitz6834 Hello my friend, I think I recognize your username, did you catch my chat with Mikkel? As for your question, it is ultimately your decision as to which religion you choose. I would point out though that your ancestry does trace back to a form of paganism. Perhaps you do not have paper records of your ancestors that far back (a lot of us don’t) but there was a time when your forefathers practiced a pagan religion.
I legit think Zoomer is a good dude (even though he banned me from his Discord for “sexism”). I try to pray daily that he has success even though I am in the LCMS and not the Reconquista. I hope others will do the same.
@@unit2394 there’s definetly something reddit/soy male about him for being so quick to ban people from his discord, and giving moderator spots to underage girls.
But leading the Israelites out of Egypt was the goal all along. The plagues came because pharaoh was impeding the exodus, not to try to reform Egypt so the Israelites could stay
@@joshuadonahue5871God perfectly knows the future. He knows whether the Reconquista will succeed. He knows whether Christianity will ever thrive again in the USA. The answer to these questions could be "no". This doesn't mean God preordained everything, or that our efforts (or lack thereof) aren't crucial in what actually comes to pass.
@@albertito77 I'm not trying to invoke any particular notion of Providence or sovereignty when I say "the goal all along". My point was that the exodus is a bad analogy, at least how you're using it, because there's no evidence that it was the prerogative of the Israelites to stay in Egypt and reform it. They were actually supposed to go to the promised land all along, it was just up to the Egyptians whether they would let them go quietly or not. They didn't do everything they could to stay, they actually did everything they could to get pharaoh to let them go. Reconquista might be a good idea, it might even be Biblical, but if it is, it's not because of the exodus story
I will say, a family's faith might be more safely guarded in a conservative or moderate PCUSA congregation, perhaps even one with a female "pastor", than a confessional PCA congregation. Because Calvinist confessional theology is very dangerous at its core.
The interpretation of Christ as the King of Kings meaning that he is the only legitimate King is radically subversive to Traditional Christian teachings around patriarchy, kingship and the great chain of being. It directly inspired the theology of liberalism and civil strife, including acts as vile as regicide, though some Calvinists were less evil they still only recognised the error of their ways after it was too late (not to mention that the Jacobites did not win, and thus never wiped away what their precursors had facilitated) and many were rather inspired by it (leading to the treason on which America was founded).
@@DrGero15 It is increasingly turning up in academic histories of early modern Europe but I am less familiar with those than the literature on Russia which had a very broadly similar conception. I'd recommend the new copy of Patriarcha published by Imperium Press as it has a good foreword, the author, Robert Filmer, was contemporary. The history channel Apostolic majesty has this broad argument as its theme though he is more subtle about it than I was in my comment. Related concepts are the great chain of being and the disputes between the conformists and non-conformists in early modern England. But as for my own sources they are very much wide rather than deep as I have read widely on history so have a fairly good idea of contexts of thought, but I don't know of any single good academic source on the issue, a lot of the research is very new as efforts to untangle period propaganda campaigns utilising early printing have led to a flowering in scholarship over recent decades. I know some excellent sources for some niche subjects but not so much this important one, but from talking to people I certainly know it is a current subject in the spheres of medievalism, early modern study, Imperial and early modern Russia experts (as said my own greatest area of knowledge, though being English I do have the basic grasp what historians are likely thinking about the topic in relation to our own history) and practicing Catholics and Orthodox (the orthodox are typically converts and have a very respectable historical grounding, especially in the classics as most went the Rome-Byzantine-God pipeline if that can be said to be a thing).
![The Errors of Dispensationalism [Scriptum #4.3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0K1D5bvI3Wc/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Errors of Dispensationalism [Scriptum #4.3]](/img/tr.png)
RZ seems to be really into the historic traditional aspects of the church, which is good, but its like he cannot understand the personal aspect at all. If I have a female pastor calling unborn children "parasites." I am not going to stay and be in fellowship with that church for the sake of the building being pretty. I will call everyone in that church to leave immediately and fellowship with actual believers.
And then RZ name-calls every single believing methodist who left after the mainline went sideways, I don't care if it's "retreatist" bro, I'm not staying in a non christian church. At this point I might as well go to a synagouge on saturdays, or a mosque, maybe then I can reconquista those buildings.
I loved RZ's early videos, he knows his stuff, he is a bible believing christian who ultimately wants whats best for christendom, and I wont put him down for that, but at some point the buildings are just buildings. They will crumble and decay like everything else. We need to evangelize to mainline liberals the best we can.
He doesn't tell people to stay in completely theologically liberal churches, but to join the conservative ones that are a part of the mainline denominations.
Also, it's extremely faulty logic to think "I don't like it, so I am not going" the church is for serving God, not your desires, and many Christians have been tortured and killed, whereas a woman called unborn children "parasites." Don't look at your personal experience, trust in God and work through it.
If we want to make Christianity dominant in the culture and to continue doing God's work, we need to stop being babies.
Thanks for the fair critique: a few brief responses
- the map is mostly based on word-of-mouth recommendations so sometimes we miss details because we're fed bad information
- Machen expressed retreatist ideas before getting kicked out
- You make good points, but I just don't see any alternative for rebuilding institutional Protestantism
If we assume for argument's sake that rebuilding institutional Protestantism should be a priority, the strongest horse for that right now is probably the Christian Classical Education movement, which has broad ecumenical appeal but is virtually impossible to pursue through the mainline churches.
Have you heard of Luther Classical College?
Solution: become Lutheran
Jk (kind of)
@@williampeters9838 you mean LCMS lutheran, right?
@@taangpeifong5334 I welcome people to the ELCA too but ooh well
Build beautiful churches
"Do not be deceived: bad company corrupts good character." 1 Cor 15:33
And Paul says this in connection with those who deny the resurrection.
Let's not be deceived.
I think RZ is still figuring things out, and I wish him the best. I was a UMC pastor and/or church staffer for 20 years. There was a well-funded and well organized effort for decades to renew the UMC, but eventually the leaders decided it was no longer worth the effort and our time and energy was better spent building new institutions. The new GMC is well on its way. I’m an ACNA priest now, and I may live long enough to see these new churches to actually surpass the size and reach of the old dying institutions.
What has always rubbed me wrong about Redeemed Zoomer's Reconquista is how focused it is on prestige, power, and resources with a monetary value--mainly church buildings. All of these things will perish on the final day.
I feel bad because I think he got too big of an audience too fast. His initial idea for the Reconquista is a novel one worth considering, it isn't laughable at face value. It points out some very valid concerns with evangelical splits-namely the feeling of disconnect from church history.
Roman Catholic apologists have latched onto this, "your church was founded in 1974, our church was founded in 33 AD."
I feel bad seeing Lutherans who seem to need to prove their historicity and worry themselves over "apostolic succession" in a Roman understanding or when they feel the need to label themselves "evangelical catholic".
If you are confident that our beliefs are catholic, that is universal, there is no need to use a label to denote it as such. It gives me the same feeling I have when I drive by an "apostolic temple church".
His Reconquista also has a naive view of church history in America. He acts as if there were one church of each denominational family and all others split off of it. This is only really true of Anglicanism. In reality, American church history is full of mergers, splits, realignments, and temporary fellowship agreements. There were dozens of Lutheran churches that merged into the few today. If Reconquista happened in 1988, which Lutheran church would he say to join? LCA or ALC?
@@RevancedBurner RZ doesn't understand Lutheranism, and I don't think he would be one anytime soon.
As for the name, "Evangelical Catholic", that is the true name of the Lutheran Church, the name "Lutheran" is just a derogatory name given by Rome to those who agreed with Luther, the name just got stuck there, even Dr. Jordan Cooper rejects it.
Btw are you Lutheran?
And about Apostolic Succession, I don't think its about Apostolic Teaching per se, we do have Apostolic Teaching, I think the concern is more about having a valid ministry and sacramental authority. I do believe the restoring the Episcopate would be the best for the Evangelical Catholic Church.
Well said. I've been blind sided by some of his arguments for this and now I understand why they are wrong.
This was an awesome response that fleshed out some thoughts Ive had when listening to RZ.
I found RZs channel when I was Baptist/nondenom. From listening to him and Allie Beth Stuckey I became a reformed Baptist. Then became LCMS Lutheran. I feel as if against all odds I didn't become a Presbyterian because of how influential the reformed crowd is on the internet! The small Chatechism cleared all of that up for me 😊.
Anyways, this was a great response. God bless.
You are correct that these denominations will not take kindly to conservatives seeking ordination with the purpose of overturning their hegemony. Getting seminary students to ordination without being discovered to be part of the Reconquista movement is probably the largest challenge that the Reconquista movement faces.
RZ saw some Catholic and Eastern Orthodox memes, and thought the exterior was the essence. Who cares if the building is pretty if you have female pastors, immediately destroying any sense of tradition.
He misrepresents, the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Pls do a response to that.
I have yet to find a doctrine he doesn’t misrepresent
@@PresbyterianStandardhow does he misrepresent the Presbyterians?
@@PresbyterianStandardI don’t think he’s every claimed Presbyterians believe in baptismal regeneration. He has always said they believe in baptismal efficacy, which is true
@ can you link me some videos with time stamps? Because he’s made the distinction. From my understanding of reformed theological, baptismal efficacy is regenerative , but that it is only effective for the elect, rather than an objective means of grace attached to the act itself.
He never purposely misrepresents any Christian branches' doctrines. He might get some things wrong, but it's always in good faith.
Dr. Adam Koontz gave a good critique recently mostly based on the fact that the governance isn’t just changeable from the grassroots. As you point out, becoming a majority conservative congregation doesn’t change seminary ordination and admissions.
Yes. Change happens top down and is elite driven.
It was a good critique! I was actually the question asker. By the time the episode was out we had already completed the script to our video but it was nice to see some overlap in perspective!
@@Jessard187Which episode is this?
@@unit2394Or you have an organized minority
@@Nicolas-fd4wy yes. Power is always wielded by an organized minority.
This video completely changed my view on this. I'd love to see RZ address a lot of these points in a response video. I think it's stupid to retreat, but leaving due to stuff like false doctrine or acceptance of the letters league (as I call them) or female pastors is perfectly valid, and not retreating unless you are on the verge of retaking the institution.
And don’t underestimate the power of the Institutions
Thanks for this video. I am going through catechesis in the LCMS and I kind of felt guilty for not wanting to join the ELCA because of RZ's videos. I remember in one of his videos, he mentioned how a woman at a PCUSA camp he went to called unborn babies parasites or something. To be honest, I can't imagine fellowshipping in a church body where that type of statement is tolerated. I do like RZ's channel but I think I ultimately disagree with him on this
The thing is he has admitted that the LCMS is basically a conservative mainline and that it’s basically just as viable to join it. That’s what I did. I was confirmed Palm Sunday of 2023. I hope you’ll join us as well friend! God bless!
@@unit2394 What to do when the only local Lutheran body is ELCA?
@@gustavusadolphus4344 I guess if the ELCA church was not horrible you could try to go there. But that’s probably not the case. And as the video highlighted, doing so would put you in fellowship with literal heretics.
If there isn’t a better Lutheran church around you could try to have an LCMS parish or a parish of a similar denomination planted. I’ve heard of people reaching out to confessional Lutheran denominations to try to get that done.
If I weren’t able to go to the LCMS church near me I would possibly go to one of the two continuing Anglican churches nearby. I know some folks there that hold to a Lutheran understanding of the sacraments. If I couldn’t do that I’d probably go to one of the CREC churches nearby. I’d have more issues with them but at least they’re liturgical and sacramental. If I couldn’t do that I’d try to find a somewhat decent Presbyterian church from another denomination or even a Methodist church that wasn’t terrible, but by then I’m going to have some serious issues with the doctrine and practice.
So if I couldn’t go to a Lutheran parish I’d try to find the closest thing to it, which is probably Anglicanism.
I think you perfectly articulated the problems in zoomer’s line of reasoning. Thank you for this video
He just recently put out a video wherein he referred to J Greshem Machen as the "patron saint of the retreatist mentality" because Machen was fired from a PCUSA seminary for being conservative and then subsequently founded the OPC denomination. Apparently in RZ's mind he should've joined another mainline protestant denomination and tried to change that instead.
@@TheLutheranDominic we address that here. Not the exact quote, but his impression of Machen.
OPC is fundamentalist, not just conservative or confessional. The PCUSA could become as conservative as the PCA is now and OPC types still wouldn't be happy there.
The OPC and the PCA are sister denominations in NAPARC, plenty of cross traffic between them, plenty of ministers have been ordained in both denominations, if by some miracle the PCUSA actually became uniformly conservative and confessional (not neo-orthodox) and joined NAPARC it would be much the same.
@RepublicofE Not sure how full communion and pulpit fellowship is "not being happy." Also define how the OPC is "fundamentalist".
@@firebat724 I always think of what Alvin Plantinga said about the word "fundamentalist" when people toss it around
There are times when it is appropriate to attack a fortified enemy position. It is foolish for the rank and file to do this without a comanding officer
RZ's reconquista project makes the most sense if you have an American Protestant view of church fellowship.
If I were a Church of the Nazarene layman I'm sure I'd be fine with double dipping membership in the Nazarene church and the UMC or UCC in support of Reconquista. Go to my Nazarene congregation at 9:15AM and then straight to the nearest moderate mainline congregation of similar background for their 11 service.
The Lutheran view of communion and fellowship precludes me trying to do the same thing as a Lutheran with an ELCA, NALC, or Lutheran Brethren church.
I appreciate how both you and RZ have fairly responded to each other and in the spirit of brotherhood in Christ give just critiques. Thank you for your humbless and peacful dialoge
The most dangerous part about RZs channel is that he teaches young Christians to value institutional power over the marks of a true church. This isn’t intentional on his part, but it’s obviously the case. Every RZ follower I’ve met in person (3 people) is under 25-two of them are trad-Romanist, and the other is EO.
Excellent video! This was a very robust critique of reconquista and also very well presented.
wow. so zoomer believes immersion baptism is "improper"???? How can anyone deny that the word"baptizo" in greek literally means "immersion!
No one -- who actually knows Koine Greek -- denies that 'baptizo' literally means 'to immerse'. We deny that the literal sense tells us all that we need to know about proper Christian baptism. After all, the Israelites were not literally baptized into Moses.
@@noxvenit That has got to be the most ignorant explanations I've ever heard. The Isrealites were literally baptized into Moses by the cloud and the sea (1 Cor 10:2) Jesus was literally immersed, and the Jews were literally immersed in the mikvah. If the very used used tell us "how" to do something, and you changed it, how is that in any way "proper"? How can sprinkling be regards as "buried with Christ"? If you have to go thru your gymnastics of an explanation, guess now we know how you ignore the rest of scripture
Im officially done supporting Reconquista. I had an interview to go to Dubuque seminary(as recommended by Dr. Richard Burnett who was introduced to me by RZ) and I'm on my path to converting to lutheranism and going to Concordia Seminary instead. The LCMS is worth saving more than the PCUSA, because the LCMS worse problem is going big Eva.
You Americans are Lucky to have LCMS and WELS. European Lutherans have few options.
@@ChaoMung-t9u In which country do you live?
@@ChaoMung-t9u There normally is an option, especially if you're willing to help build a small-but-growing congregation. For instance, here in Norway (and Iceland!) we have The Lutheran Church in Norway and Iceland (LKN). Many other European countries have equivalents.
What to do when your only local Lutheran church is ELCA, Presbyterian PCUSA, and Anglican Episcopal? What do you do when all your historical protestant churches are mainline?
What is big Eva?
The solution is to build new, beautiful churches that will be “traditional & historic” 100 years from now
That is definitely something we should be doing. One issue is that it is seriously questionable whether we have the knowledge, skilled labor, and simple will to build things like that anymore.
Saint Peters Anglican (ACNA) Cathedral in Tallahassee Florida is a great example of this.
@@unit2394 It's not that we're incapable of building new things. If you look at the Catholic cathedrals built in Europe from the Middle Ages. Those building are absolutely beautiful. But what we fail think about is those buildings took half a century (in many cases) to build and cost absolute fortunes.
Ask yourself what is more important. Building a very expensive and beautiful building to have your mass/services in? Or taking that money and using it to improve the lives of the community and in particular give hands-up to the poor and needy so they can prosper and share wealth/lift the lives of more people who need it?
Sure, I'd love to build nice buildings. But at the end of the day, the building is not "the Church." It's just a building. The Church IS the people (God's people) and there are a lot of people suffering (who are also God's people). I think it's immoral to spend fortunes on buildings, when there are truly people that need our help right now and that money could make a difference.
Which in a 100 years will be turned into a bar or strip club, just like most historic churches in Western Europe.
@ St. Peter’s Cathedral is nice enough, but I still find it a bit plain and modern looking in some ways.
I'm only 14 minutes in but this is a very well made video! Congrats on that.
I want to thank this channel for putting into words and videos what I've always felt, but due to having a mental disorder, was never able to articulate properly. While I'm not in agreement with everything you guys say across your videos, I just want to thank you for this one. God bless.
A Lutheran quoting so much Calvin to contradict a Calvinist amazed me today
How else do you contradict a Calvinist? Do you know what contradiction is? Middle schools theologian amazed me today
@@iqcnpjp9per Merriam-Webster dictionary: to assert the contrary of, take issue with. I believe my use of the word contradict fits this definition very well. “A Lutheran quoting so much Calvin to assert the contrary of what a Calvinist believes in amazed me today”. I am not a middle schooler btw, maybe you should check the dictionary before replying to people with an arrogant tone.
@fab7an758 you prove yourself right by defining contradict with contrary? at least read the thing before you copy-paste and embarrass yourself. i'm sorry to call you a middle schooler. please study well next year in 4th grade
@@fab7an758 Agreed
@@iqcnpjp9 besides English is not even my first language. But I can go access an online dictionary, unlike you apparently who can’t tell the difference between a noun and a verb.
EO here, but for what it’s worth, I think it would behoove Protestant conservatives to take notes from the only time a “reconquista” has ever been conducted with a moderate degree of success: the Southern Baptist conservative resurgence. Few people today realize just how liberal southern baptists used to be until Patterson and Co. turned the entire denomination around. And, of course, it was done top down, not bottom-up as Zoomer seems to recommend. They systematically and cunningly managed to oust all of the seminary presidents, fire a huge number of liberal subversives, and installed conservatives in all positions of power. While the ability of the SBC to withstand the coming decades has yet to be ascertained, their current conservatism is a remarkable example of what happens when people properly understand the role of power and know that culture is created top-down.
It’s important to note that the SBC conservative resurgence in the late 80s was essentially a copy and paste of the LCMS’s retaking at the 1973 synodical conference (causing “the walkout”). It was absolutely a top down reversal where the conservative synod president fired the seminary boards after denying the results of an investigation proving liberalism was rampant in the seminaries. In the 1977 conference, several district presidents (“bishops” if you will) were fired because they tried hiring the walkout pastors anyway. Ironically for RZ’s cause, the LCMS is the best example of a recent “reconqista” or “preservation” of a denomination, and it only could have happened from the top down.
@ good point! I was unaware of that history! 👍🏻
Zoomer says nothing about the alliance between the Presbyterian Church of Brazil and Freemasonry. He loves Calvin, but says nothing about the errors of Calvinism.
Could you expound on this? From what I know, there is a official "Reformed" view on Freemasonry (which you would expect from any Protestant branch on an issue that arose post confessions. For example, here in the US the CRC is staunchly opposed to the Mason, while the RCA has typically be okay with them.
I've literally seen people start coming to my Lutheran church because of Zoomer. Anyone calling people to go to church, care about theology, and fight for their respective synods is an ally in my book. This video had better be a thankful and glowing ecumenical review with some constructive criticism.
That's not what the Reconquista is about. The critique is about the Reconquista movement, not his channel as a whole.
You mean “fight for their respective Bishoprics”
I think RZ needs a dedicated map team to actually investigate the churches. That could do wonders to fix it up.
Yes, he certainly does. I know I have direct messaged him a few times about his map. One time was to tell him that the First Presbyterian Church he had on his map near me as a 1/5 was gay affirming and had a pastor talking about deconstructing his faith after his divorce. He said he’d take it down but it’s still up there. I suppose he forgot. I’ve also found other examples like this video mentions where churches on the map are much more liberal than they’re made out to be.
Yes, our LCMS church is not on the list, but a closed LCMS church in our town is. I have reached out via UA-cam comments with no luck, he needs a way to give feedback more smoothly, because it’s a good resource if run well
The church I grew up in varies from almost Biblical to brutalist female pastor worshiptainment depending on which supply pastor shows up that day.
This is excellently put together and thorough. Very much appreciate the video.
This is gonna be really interesting
agreed
What church would recommend when there is no LCMS around?
@@chiukid Try WELS, ELS and AALC.
I often drive 2h for the nearest LCMS. I know they aren't common in some places.
@@perilousrange Should one truly drive that far for church? I feel like you are sacrificing the community and are not strengthening a body that serves your local community...
Besides driving that far will limit your ability to participate in the church outside of the Sunday morning... The Church is called to be more then that
@@gustavusadolphus4344 My local area is Pentecostal and Methodist. I'm not interested in what they have to offer. And regarding my ability to participate outside of services; I routinely drive much greater distance than that, depending on where I'm needed. I'm in the NC hurricane cleanup zone a lot these days.
Interesting stuff. After seminary (decades ago) I left the PC(USA) ordination process, and RZ's reconquista has caught my attention. Ive not finished your lengthy response, but I plan to work through it all.
One thing to note so far: I definitely think that, in our current milieu, the ordination of women is absolutely a moderate position to take. I am a complementarian myself, but that doesn't change the fact that many protestant Christians, including evangelicals, are egalitarian. Descriptively speaking, egalitarianism is simply not a far left wing position.
The expectation of success or failure of the mission (in the long run) will be determined by your eschatology. I agree with your point about women’s ordination but more importantly it’s the hermeneutical axioms behind it that set the trajectory for liberalism. From it also come egalitarianism and the gay theology interpretations of the Bible. I wrote extensively about this in a book titled “Do Not Be Deceived.” One issue not addressed in this video (unless I missed it) is Paul’s epistles to the church at Corinth. The issues in the church are not unlike today, yet Paul didn’t tell everyone to leave and start another congregation down the road. Though he did say they were not to eat with someone who called themselves a Christian yet lived in open rebellion against the law of God (1 Corinthians 5 /Leviticus 28:8).
@@KildaltonTheologicalStudies there is a difference between sin that takes place in a congregation and outright blatant heresy that is infecting an entire denomination. Jesus himself warns us not to follow false teachers who are wolves in sheeps clothing. So the difference is between an institution that is corrupt from the top down and a church that has members engaged in sin that need to be disciplined.
@@TheLutheranDominicI agree but Paul did say THEY were proud of the tolerance of the man’s sin (1 Corinthians 5:6). Eventually if the church in Corinth didn’t repent they would come under the same condemnation of the church in Thyatira (Revelation 2:20.). There was also blatant heresy at Corinth as there were some who denying the resurrection (see chapter 15). If there is a fire in your house you have to make a judgment call, do you pick up a fire extinguisher and fight it or is it so big you get the hell out and call the fire department and perhaps watch it burn?
@@KildaltonTheologicalStudies I think we're fundamentally in agreement. It comes down to a question of degree because of course no church is going to be completely free from sin or false teaching and if we split over everything we'd have absolutely no unity at all.
@@TheLutheranDominicYes, this the dilemma. I am Anglican. The acna split from the episcopal church in 2009 over homosexuality and other issues. However, the acna still allows for each diocese to ordain or not ordain women. I find this unacceptable especially being on a diocese where it is allowed. The opposition to this is gaining momentum. Are we to split again ,fight to bring the acna to reform itself to the biblical standard, or just join the continuing Anglican churches? I am in my 60s and frankly very tired of this. God give me strength!
I find his points interesting. However, I like what Moldbug said about infiltration and conversion. He said that once a system has that happen, it builds an immune system against infiltration. The same thing isn't going to happen again. It would be interesting if a new method of infiltration exists.
@@skylinefever nice insight. Are there particular essays from Moldbug you'd recommend on this? It would make for an interesting video.
@ScholasticLutherans The first Molbug thing anyone should ever read or listen to is his Cathedral argument. He named the collusion between media and academia "The Cathedral."
Excellent response 👍🏻 very charitable, very well spoken
This is excellent. You helped me think through this. Zoomer is not getting enough pushback on some of this.
"attend a liberal church and you'll change the church"
meanwhile the thought never seems to cross his mind the opposite might happen as we often see in the political sphere.
Worst thing is he promotes this same things for untrained young children going to public schools. Insane and destructive levels of optimism.
He is a Calvinist, no one who is predestinated to be of the Elect can ever be lost, so there is no risk.
@@DrGero15 Very true. Not sure if that plays into his reasoning, but regardless goes to show the real danger such doctrines present not only to your own soul but those of your family as well.
He has repeatedly said the project is not just about retaking the pretty buildings, yet he includes American Baptist Churches USA as one of the mainline denominations that needs to be reconquered. Even though the SBC is far larger, far and away more institutionally poweful and culturally significant, and at least as historically grounded as ABC USA. But the SBC has ugly churches which seems to be the only reason RZ would consider it a priority for Baptists to retake ABC-USA.
He once said Lutherans are the least needful of Reconquista because the LCMS is about as institutionally and historically grounded as the ELCA, while the conservative counterparts to the other mainline denominations are all very new and institutionally weak. But that's really only even facially true for Presbyterians and Anglicans. Baptists have the SBC. Wesleyans have the Church of the Nazarene. UCC members can basically just go anywhere.
not true, SBC has tons of nice building. I don't consider it part of the Reconquista cuz it needs none
@@redeemedzoomer6053 My point is, if Lutherans are less needing of Reconquista than Presbyterians or Anglicans because we have the LCMS, Baptists would need it even less than Lutherans because they have the SBC.
@@redeemedzoomer6053the SBC has issues with liberalism (as does the LCMS) just not nearly to the degree of the other mainlines. If you want to be Baptist or Lutheran, shoring up the SBC and LCMS is at least as good of an option as joining an ABCUSA or ELCA church.
And yes, there are some nice looking SBC churches.
13:31 actually I is female deacons which are the gateway to theological liberalism. As female priests come second to that.
💯
Well said, thank you for this well thought out and biblical critique.
Please take these criticisms and corrections in the spirit of truth and friendship that they are intended:
The ELCA did not split off from the LCMS. The ELCA was the product of a series of mergers in the 20th century culminating in the 1988 merger of the ALC (the merger of the rump of the Synodical Conference) with the LCA (the merger of the General Conference). The ELCA only absorbed a rump faction of the LCMS.
There are beautiful historic conservative protestant churches (my home church is one), while they are rare in the presbyterian and episcopal traditions (for reasons you elucidated), they are much more common in the LCMS and SBC.
Luther Seminary is the most conservative seminary in the ELCA, and many of the professors do not agree with the ELCA's turn. I know this for a fact by the way. It is the only seminary in the ELCA that has not openly endorsed the sexual revolution. While it is by no means CSFW, you need to give Luther Seminary more credit.
Well argued. You convinced me.
New Christian here...
Beautiful traditional buildings and music are not necessary in a Church, but they REALLY add feeling of a respectful place of worship. Most people seeking God for the first time are actually really interested in beautiful, traditional culture at church.
So while I place the sermons and doctrine of the church as my first priority, it's really hard to feel like I'm giving God full respect with modern, untraditional music in a white box church.
I'm lucky in that my doctrinally correct local church is over 100 years old and is a beautiful, albeit small building. Middle church I guess. I do still frequent the Methodist service at the huge beautiful church in the city, despite their failings in doctrine. I wish the two could be combined, but both church communities support me frequenting both.
I don’t wanna be quick to call anyone idolatrous for wanting to worship in a beautiful building or be a part of a strong protestant institution but at the end of the day, I have to wonder why worshipping on this mountain or that mountain is necessary for rebuilding protestant institutions. The disciples had to leave a strongly established covenant institution in order to build Christendom from nothing. We’ve been here before and running back to Jerusalem to cling to the temple will only lead to you being surrounded by the Romans. Pardon my hyperbole
I think he’ll become a Roman Catholic in the future.
15:53 there is a saying: do not holler till you get your collar. If conservative seminary students are seeking theology degrees and ordination within broadly denominations, arguing with Seminary staff is stoopid. Of course you're going to put a target on your back! If you infiltrate the lion's den you gotta be smart about it
RZ is ethnically Jewish, became a believer that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and is now a reformed Presbyterian ( PCUSA )Calvinist.
Since he is a generational “Boomer,” I think his battle cry is consistent: “reformed and always reforming” !
Retreatist or reconqista, argument this, argument that, tactics here, tactics there, Pro's and Con's... What is _God_ calling you to do? Maybe he wants you to be a Witness to the truth inside a liberal Church, maybe to reconquer, to call judgement or maybe to just save a single soul.
Maybe he wants you in a confessional Church to help prepare the Sunday morning Service, sing in the Choir, or maybe plant a new Church.
I don't know if people might idolize buildings, but you are right to point out the danger. And you are absolutely right that our callings are not all the same. 🙂
RZ never said women’s ordination wasnt a serious issue. He said it isn’t a heresy. If it was heresy, it would contradict the trinity, Gospel, or moral law. Although Paul very clearly said women shouldn’t be elders, it doesn’t qualify as heresy. It is a heterodox. Besides that all of the other critiques are valid, but I would still probably side with RZ though.
Lord, grant me prudence. How pleasant would Life be if one was able to discern what each situation calls for according to Thy Word; and yet if I were too wise, I would not need Thee; I would not come to Thy throne out of hunger for righteousness. Grant me the prudence, the discernment, that I am due--solely out of Thy Grace, and The Grace to lay my Isaac (beauty in church exteriors) down at the moment of testing. Amen.
Machen started Westminster Seminary to counter neo orthodoxy liberalism, not as a retreatist, but to preserve Biblical historical reformed creedal “Calvinism” ( Geneva, Belgic, Westminster, Scottish, etc.) or Sola Scriptura !
I think the problem is his Reformed theology. He doesn't worry about souls being lost since the Elect will be unfailingly saved, and can't be lost. If one is reprobate, one is not able to convert anyway so no loss there.
PCUSA has conservatives and moderates outside of RZ's movement. I have nothing in common with them except for our love for Christ. You don't have to join his movement. The PCUSA has issues no doubt, nobody disagrees with that. I have to disagree with you about congregations not being able to remove their pastors in the PCUSA, woke pastors have been removed from conservative/moderate congregations. At the end of the day, we can call each other apostates by different standards we hold.
12:40 Christ(ian) sexual ethics or Paul's sexual ethics?
God’s standard of human sexuality
It’s God’s standerd for human sexuality
Put the video on 1.5x speed and now he sounds like Ben Shapiro a little 😂
I would never abandon my country, but people sure are free and easy about abandoning something far more important.
There is a streak of cowardice that runs through the conservative mind. Progs love to agitate and fight, but conservatives just flee.
This is an incredibly well made video. You have managed to compile all my thoughts and cirticisms of him too.
RZ focuses way too much on church beauty that he overlooks so many other essentials. I did not realise that he was going to a PCA church as well, that just completely spits in the face of this movement.
RZ is a very well learned man that shoukd be able to stand firm on the doctrine and gospel of christ, and if he finds it a struggle to do so, then he is inviting others whose faith might not be as solid to fall.
I really appreciate RZ's onkine contributions, however his view of "retreatism," and his obsession of the outqard beauty of churches is incredibly misguided and does not help evangelise the world as much as he holds weight to.
I had a cordial discussion with a Danish Lutheran (Truth Unto Godliness) on his channel about Christianity.
I wish [real] Christians the best of luck in kicking leftism out of your Churches. With that said, I am skeptical, as universalism and egalitarianism are the logical conclusions of Christian premises.
What are you?
@ Folkish Asatru
There are things I respect about neo-pagans, and I certainly hold them in higher regard than I would atheists. I have heard several neo-pagans say similar things regarding Christianity giving rise to egalitarianism, though many of these arguments seem a bit tenuous. Frequently they make their case based on some variant of Nietzschean slave morality, but I can't say that I find these arguments convincing. Several pagans have argued that Christianity made the West weak, though I find it difficult to believe that this is specifically the fault of Christianity.
As for myself, all of my ancestors that I know of have been Christians. Should I dishonor the ancestors I actually know so that I can 'honor' my hypothetical ancestors?
@@chemnitz6834 Hello my friend, I think I recognize your username, did you catch my chat with Mikkel?
As for your question, it is ultimately your decision as to which religion you choose. I would point out though that your ancestry does trace back to a form of paganism. Perhaps you do not have paper records of your ancestors that far back (a lot of us don’t) but there was a time when your forefathers practiced a pagan religion.
He’s so annoying
Yes he is!!! I do know that we're too thinking the best about our neighbor, but WOW.
Nah, dude's fine. And I say it as someone nearing the age when people annoy you just by the merit of being younger than you.
@@igor9204nah he got the Redditor voice
I legit think Zoomer is a good dude (even though he banned me from his Discord for “sexism”). I try to pray daily that he has success even though I am in the LCMS and not the Reconquista. I hope others will do the same.
@@unit2394 there’s definetly something reddit/soy male about him for being so quick to ban people from his discord, and giving moderator spots to underage girls.
28:15 Moses only lead the Israelites out of Egypt after everything had been tried to stop it.
But leading the Israelites out of Egypt was the goal all along. The plagues came because pharaoh was impeding the exodus, not to try to reform Egypt so the Israelites could stay
@ only given God's foreknowledge
@@albertito77 I'm not sure I understood your original comment now. After everything had been tried to stop what exactly?
@@joshuadonahue5871God perfectly knows the future. He knows whether the Reconquista will succeed. He knows whether Christianity will ever thrive again in the USA. The answer to these questions could be "no". This doesn't mean God preordained everything, or that our efforts (or lack thereof) aren't crucial in what actually comes to pass.
@@albertito77 I'm not trying to invoke any particular notion of Providence or sovereignty when I say "the goal all along". My point was that the exodus is a bad analogy, at least how you're using it, because there's no evidence that it was the prerogative of the Israelites to stay in Egypt and reform it. They were actually supposed to go to the promised land all along, it was just up to the Egyptians whether they would let them go quietly or not. They didn't do everything they could to stay, they actually did everything they could to get pharaoh to let them go. Reconquista might be a good idea, it might even be Biblical, but if it is, it's not because of the exodus story
I will say, a family's faith might be more safely guarded in a conservative or moderate PCUSA congregation, perhaps even one with a female "pastor", than a confessional PCA congregation. Because Calvinist confessional theology is very dangerous at its core.
How so?
@@taangpeifong5334 "Jesus didn't die for everyone" and "Jesus predestines people to go to Hell" are dangerous teachings.
The interpretation of Christ as the King of Kings meaning that he is the only legitimate King is radically subversive to Traditional Christian teachings around patriarchy, kingship and the great chain of being. It directly inspired the theology of liberalism and civil strife, including acts as vile as regicide, though some Calvinists were less evil they still only recognised the error of their ways after it was too late (not to mention that the Jacobites did not win, and thus never wiped away what their precursors had facilitated) and many were rather inspired by it (leading to the treason on which America was founded).
@@vorynrosethorn903 Where can I read or watch more about what you are talking about?
@@DrGero15 It is increasingly turning up in academic histories of early modern Europe but I am less familiar with those than the literature on Russia which had a very broadly similar conception. I'd recommend the new copy of Patriarcha published by Imperium Press as it has a good foreword, the author, Robert Filmer, was contemporary.
The history channel Apostolic majesty has this broad argument as its theme though he is more subtle about it than I was in my comment.
Related concepts are the great chain of being and the disputes between the conformists and non-conformists in early modern England. But as for my own sources they are very much wide rather than deep as I have read widely on history so have a fairly good idea of contexts of thought, but I don't know of any single good academic source on the issue, a lot of the research is very new as efforts to untangle period propaganda campaigns utilising early printing have led to a flowering in scholarship over recent decades. I know some excellent sources for some niche subjects but not so much this important one, but from talking to people I certainly know it is a current subject in the spheres of medievalism, early modern study, Imperial and early modern Russia experts (as said my own greatest area of knowledge, though being English I do have the basic grasp what historians are likely thinking about the topic in relation to our own history) and practicing Catholics and Orthodox (the orthodox are typically converts and have a very respectable historical grounding, especially in the classics as most went the Rome-Byzantine-God pipeline if that can be said to be a thing).