I was planning on collecting an elite imperium united army when I seriously entered the TT hobby in 2019. But then GW raised prices making my army over $2k USD and I decided just to collect and play other TT wargames instead. And now have a cabinet full of armies that I got for around the same price as a low model 40K army. So Yeah GW being greedy lost out on a customer and frankly positive press as I'm press besides the few things they do price fairly.
Not at all , IMO the game system has become too expensive and volatile to play anymore. I'd rather go with legacy systems like HH or the skirmish games like Warcry/Killteam cause lets be honest - most balanced games within GW's catalogue.
I don't play anymore. I played several games of 8th and found that I didn't like it, I didn't like the strat or CP system, I didn't like how it played, that 9/10 if you had 1st turn, you will. You may and well roll a d6 and see who went first, thwn roll a d6 to steal first turn, thwn say good game. Now I am aware this has been taken out in 9th when reading the rules, however they have bloated the points system, they've bloated the CP and strat systems, that I just went "nah, no chance am I playing this". Now with the massive power creep, just no, bit touching it. I hope 10th goes back to basics lile 4th or 5th. Lets get rid of all this bumph nonesense they brought in
I started in 2nd edition. It was wild, kinda wacky but fun. Most of my play time was during 3rd edition. Looking back now, I think the most enjoyable aspect was that everything you needed to know about each unit was in a paragraph or two, including their stat block. Your army and your opponent's was relatively easy to keep track of. Most of your attention/thought process was pointed at the game board. "Oh, my terminators don't care about that squad's Splinter Rifles, but the Disintegrator Cannon will be a problem." Your losses revolved around positioning and timing of when to go in, or retreat. Currently, you have to worry about what 5 things are my opponent about to combo together out of the 20 things they *can* do(that are spread out through 3 books and several pages of FAQ and Errata)
Fully agree. I only started playing during 8th, but the speed at which the rules are changed is really putting me off tbh. I only play 2 to 3 times a year and I have the feeling I'll have to relearn the game because of the complexity and the never ending changes. Recently I decided to delve into A Song of Ice and Fire and I must say that game is really easy to learn and I have more games from this game under my belt than with 40k. I'm looking forward to the WE codex, so I'm still here
its fine to say that, but when I want to just run down to the store and get a quick game in, I don't want to spend an hour before hand negotiating rules.
Was a bit worried when I saw the clickbait title but the content was spot on. Playing a small bit of 40k casually, don't see myself playing competitively but unfortunately most events are competitive events. More league weekends or narrative events would be welcome as I think that is were 40k really shines.
I love 9th and am having a lot of fun with it. I do think the Strats are an issue. It makes the game way too complex. Personally I'd strip them back. Ideally I'd like it if armies had access to the Core strats and you had to pick a few before the game as part of your army list, perhaps 1 per 500 points. Make them one use only too. This way it would be easy to tell your opponent which ones you had when you explain your list and it's much less complex. You could even give the strats points values so they are fundamental parts of the army building process.
I've always bought the models that I liked regardless of whether or not they are the most effective for the faction I want to build/play. I desperately want to play Crusade mode. Time is the issue. So I spend more time building/painting than playing.
Great video, I myself used to play competitive back in 7th but never ran the best units just the ones I liked. I'd say a 40-60% win ratio but had fun so never worried, I find that part of the game for me now has just lost any fun so only play narrative and only use the rules as needed to help the story along. Much more enjoyable in my opinion.
Me and my regular opponent just play small 500 point casual games where we don’t even use stratagems. We both quite enjoy the simplicity of it. I would like to see two separate versions of 40k 10th edition when it comes out - Standard edition and tournament edition. I also find it a particularly bad rule to be able to spend cp points to re-roll failed dice rolls, especially key ones that can change the outcome of a game, I’ve experienced this and it kind of ruined the game for me. I personally would ditch the cp re-rolls and limit the number of stratagems so the game is more about core and army rules.
In all honesty. I don't think GW ruined anything. I mostly think it is the people that have changed. Back when I started Warhammer 40K and Fantasy were pretty damn complex too, it's just that most people now have the attention span of a housefly. They do not want, nor can they focus on anything for longer than 5 seconds. This is also why those 5 seconds per round multiplayer videogames are so popular, or phone games. It's also why nobody reads any books any more. People just don't have any attention span and also a huge lack of intelligence. I'm not saying GW doesn't have some uneccessary bloat here and there (they could do away with stratagems completely) BUT for the most part out of my experience organinising a Warhammer Tabletop Club with over 70 people, it is mostly the people themselves being at fault. This is the way today, everybody else is at fault, except the people themselves.
This is the exact general message I was aiming for. I really think people have changed, a lot, in the last 30 years. Self regulation is the way. All comes down to who you play with I think :) Well put!
I agree completely! The best games I've ever played have been fluffy narrative games where we almost "roleplay" the events. We still try to win, but if the space marines are too easily crushing the aliens... Suddenly the aliens get loads of reinforcements! And now it becomes a desperate last stand. But then perhaps the marines get an extra turn or something right at the end. The worst games I've ever played were at tournaments, unfortunately.
All of my friends and me started with 9th edition. I just kind of assumed 40K wasn’t a very good game, because I was always so bored and aggravated. Too much bloat and unit imbalance. So we got the dominion box for age of sigmar, the seraphon start collecting, and the nighthaunt start collecting. And we tried age of sigmar for a couple games. I WILL NOT play 40K until 10th edition or maybe never. And that is solely because of how AWESOME AND FUN Age of Sigmar is. Rules are better, fluff is better, thematic game elements are more fun, and game mechanics are 1000x more interesting. And it’s significantly cheaper than 40K. Just better in almost every Way. I very much suggest everyone try age of sigmar
I loved 40k since Rogue Trader but I missed out 4th. I still love the models but 40k now feels like it has a card game added on which I very much dislike so I don't really play. I prefer Horus Heresy
I'm of the opinion that if you dont like it just use any iteration of previous rules that you want in agreement with your opponent. I find it complicated and difficult but ultimately I love it and I'm happy to go with whatever rules there are currently in place.
Exactly. I play an updated 2nd edition with my friends, but you can use Project Anvil to use the codices from 3rd or 4th to get the perfect blend of modern 40k lore and factions with the classic rules and feel of the more chaotic and narrative driven gameplay. You can even order plastic tokens on ebay for 2nd edition.
I get the points you make. But if I was running a shop where I sold 40K products, I think I would put more emphasis on what GW are doing to bring new players into the hobby. My perspective is that the 40K game in its current state is impossible to get in to. GW seems to have the attitude that the solution to every problem is for players to throw more money at it. 40K is currently a byzantine moving target for a new starter. And rather than simplify the point of entry, GW seem to be doubling down on requiring the interested player to flagellate their wallet in order to take part. This is not a sustainable business model.
Great video Olly, and I think you’ve touched on the reason I’m more into the hobby side, and avoid the gaming side. I really like the positivity of your approach as well! Thanks my dude.
"Playing the game the way you want to play, as opposed to how it's 'supposed' to be played" is the key comment in this video. I'm a sporadic player of 40K (haven't played since 7th) but I play lots of other GW games... and lots of games by other companies. When 8th edition launched, they had those Index - [Faction] books... Imperium, Chaos, Xenos, etc. At that time, I saw those books and thought, "that'll probably be the best version of 40K that'll exist for this edition. The simpler the rules, the better." but I knew that once the proper codices came out, people would chuck those books in the dustbin. A big mistake, imho, but I never played that edition, so really, I have no idea! lol. I started with 2nd edition around '96 and none of us were using house rules, FYI. Maybe back in Rogue Trader days, but not for 2nd. I had many a fun game with friends in 2nd & 3rd. I had a handful of fun tourney games and just as many (if not more) bad experiences. Play for fun, people.
I really don't think the game is dead. Tbh it seems more popular than ever. But I do think we put too much value on tournament play and balance. There is a reason small dnd groups with house rules end up being the best campaigns as opposed to official events. But that just an opinion. Really I just think we should shift focus to having fun whether it's fluff games or competitive, rather than just focusing on the e-sport aspect kind of thing
I play every week. 40k has never been in a better place. I play casual crusade games, the new tempest of war casual games, and super competitive on a chess clock games. Like every edition of the game there are things that could be improved or done better but honestly of all the editions I have played ( 3.5 to 9th ) its in its best state. I also play Horus Heresy 2.0 and AoS. For the casual player I don't think there is really a issue. Look if you don't know the rules that well don't worry about it. Just play the game. If you only play with a tight circle of your friends then it really doesn't matter what rules you use or don't use as long as your consistent. Even then it's relative.
friend and I play crusade since last year only using power points and the crusade book missions. this is the only way I can see myself play 40K. It doesn't matter if I win or lose, it doesn't matter that my opponent has 250pts more in points, it' about having a cool story being created by the dice rolls. one game Typhus went down to a contemptor dreadnaught. the next game he wrecked the contemptor, went on to kill the librarian, tech marine and apothecary by himself, tanking absolutely everything being thrown his way. it was epic!
People come to my place to play. My House rules are fun over rules. We only introduce a rule when we all understand it. We only just introduced the stratagems. We also dont make a big deal about anything being interpreted wrong. Even mid game, I just say roll with it. Its 40k something weird happened and lets see how it plays out.
My play group has switched out to one page rules for now, The rules bloat was just getting too much. It's honestly nice to play a game that didn't feel like a test in bookkeeping.
The art of simple rules that offer deep strategic and tactic options is a very difficult one. Endless 'special' rules are a ham-fisted way of trying to get there.
I really hope they bring Reactions to a future edition of 40k. For Stratagems, removing them altogether would remose some flavour. Maybe have a deck of cards and you pick a few before the begining of the game, and carefuly design them to remove any gotcha moments?
I agree completely, that is the issue with losing strats. I did do a part on that (but I removed in the edit to keep the video shorter) and mentioned that the difficulty with a d6 game is it doesn't leave a lot of room to navigate factions strengths or weaknesses. A D20 would make 2+ Extremely likely, and a 20 Extremely unlikely.. but I think D20 is too wide for new players. It's a tough line. It's the gotcha moments that make it a horrible experience.
Thing is, there are the bones of that already in place - strategems come in categories. So just say that, pre-game, you can select one strategem from each category for your army to have access to. If there are two you want from the same category, you can take them both but you have to sacrifice selecting strategems from two other categories (reducing your overall total). The reactions from Horus Heresy would be a nice addition to, I think. Why does overwatch need to be a strategem?
A very sensible and balanced argument there. If you look at the appeal of One Page Rules it seems to me that you need to have two rule systems for 40K: a simple set of basic rules with limited re rolls and buffing (or even non at all!); and a “tournament” set for competitive players. I’m not a competitive player as it would spoil the hobby for me. I only buy the minis I like the look of and don’t get concerned at all about their stats. I loved Age of Sigmar when it first came out: no points system you just counted the wounds to build your army. No it wasn’t very fair to some factions but it was fun at least for me!
You have noble goals and I understand your perspective. I think the main issues that come from your points is that External Balance has always been as issue in 40k and the other issue is that some folks do not get the privilege of playing with like-minds. To address the first point. External Balance has always been a major issue in 40k and it's why so many people are so keen to make sure 40k is balanced as those people have probably been through a few editions like you and I and they know what fighting OP codex's was like. 5th edition: To me had the best core rules. What hurt its edition was external balance. If you were playing most Imperial armies (Grey Knights, Space Marines, IG, BA, Long Fang/Thunderwolf SW) you would be fine, if you played the few Xenos armies to get a book that edition (Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks) you were relatively fine. If you were playing 4th edition Codex's like CSM, Tau or Craftworld Eldar you would be pigeon-hold into one or two lists top try and keep up with 'em. It was fun for a select few. 6th Edition: expanded USR's of 5th, included allies, dropped fixed charge distances, and brought in random rolls with free Overwatch. It hammered assault armies and most games were made as a WWI simulator with Aegis Defence lines and entire armies hiding behind them. Then allies brought us the issue of T'au-Dar. An edition that gave Tau the best edition they could have ever hoped for in gunlines, now backed up by the psychic might of Farseers and Warlocks on Jetbikes... 7th edition: The climax of the unregulated power creep of an old system. Again, the core rules were decent based on 5th edition designs but bloated beyond measure as it tried to become every sub-genre of Wargame on a singular table. You wanted giant Mech/Bugs/Tanks/etc? You want Battletech in your 40k? Knights and Lords of War had you covered! You wanted battalions similar to Historicals like in Flames of War? Formations it was! You wanted Skirmish elements in your games? herohammer and challenges were your friend! It bloated the edition beyond measure, then you had to compound to the fact that external balance still existed. Tau and, most notably Eldar, got new Codex's that they didn't need while Orks and CSM were stuck with 6th ed. Codex's until the very end. Eldar also destroyed this edition single handily. There were recorded instances in GT's such as the LVO where players would travel from the other side of the country or even abroad with a Craftworld list just to fight.... the exact same list, perfect mirror match, the only variation was paintjob. 8th Edition: The reboot. something that was needed but ultimately became about snowballing Strats, CP, Volume of firepower and volume of models to clean house Turn 1 to eliminate agency from your opponent who could not fight back. A lot of the issues you presented have been said here so I will not go further. I stopped trying to keep up at this point since meta kept getting turned every 3-6 months. This then leads us to 9E: The game deffo has been decent as a competitive game. Balanced? Only if you are playing competitively on a weekly basis with competitive lists like no other edition before. You wanna play mono Night Lords and expect an engaging time? Where are the folks playing other Tyranid faction outside Leviathan? Who is playing Argent Shroud Sisters? Black Templars where? Orks? What are they? The issues presented with 9E evolve from 8E which I will expand further down: There has deffo been a shifting point between 8-9E towards wanting a more balanced game which so many have been asking for for editions. The problem with how GW executed this demand is that they went to GT players and those with a loud Social Media presence to playtest, and there is a large overlap between the two. Now, in theory, this should be perfect. Established players making sure the needs of all are addressed to make a fun and engaging but fair game, right? I know I certainly thought that at the start. Well, there was a crux to this issue that no one foresaw. GT players are not the Messiah we as a community have made them to be. What we failed to realise was that GT players have a very, very different mindset and mentality to the community of people who like of like-minds like you and I have. They do not see rule of cool like we do in a competitive field. They do not see two forces engaging across the battlefields in a simulation across the 41st Millennium. What they see is a puzzle to be solved. They do not see armies and sub factions to play. They see what they can do to crack the code, solve the puzzle, and move onto the next one. They accepted the format and looked to see how to reduce probability as close to 0% as they could. They aren't as attached, per say, as we are to our armies As long as they can do that and the missions that they are provided can do this every turn of the match then the game is balanced to their tastes and this lasts to the detriment of the rest of the community. Now some may ask why? Why or how could this be such a problem? It's because these folks have equally played for as long as we have. They have gotten into this routine for editions, with unregulated power creep to allow them to active these goals with easy effect... And we (or GW did, depends of your point of view) asked these players to essentially fix this game. Now what did that give us? Well Nachmund taught us what they wanted out of a "Balanced" game. A game where you can wombo-combo a bunch of strats together ( like it was Street-Fighter or Tekken) so you take out such a high % of the enemy army during the early turns of the game, so you could then sit of VP's with little to no resistance till the end of the game. This is 9E and why I keep saying to people its balance is no different to any previous editions. It's balanced if you play certain units/armies/sub factions, but if you're not playing those then let's hope you gotta healthy group of friends to play. 9E is the result to that. As you have rightly pointed out the game maybe in a fine place if you’re playing on a weekly to daily basis and only play certain lists + secondaries but people tend to hate rebuttal when you point out that not every faction is a flexible or feels like it should in a game. The game feels... Sterile in a sense. In our journey to seek out the best symmetrical balance, we lost the soul of 40k along the way. The games community now resembles a lot of the likeness' to WM/H MKII, to which only few remember with rose-tinted lenses. It worrying to feel that is the course of direction for the game and its community to me.
Now on the second point this is a bit more personal but i know there will be folks reading this who probably have had a similar experience, which is why it leads to people asking what's good or not consistently as you have pointed out. Not everyone has a group of friends they can chill in a basement/spare room and drink cans of coke/beer/whatever of similar like-minds. For most you need to play at your LGS/FLGS and with that comes many opportunities and experiences to have, however fighting someone you don't know quite well is very different to playing with a friend who you do know. This then leads to players asking what's good rather than choosing what looks coolest to them. They want to enjoy a game but, especially with the media focus on hyper-competitive play, folks feel as though they need to keep up with that because that's the most "balanced" way to play. People choose this route to take because no one likes to feel that the investment they've spent financially, time investment in building/painting/playing as been wasted because they brought the "wrong" list/units to the table as they see themselves get wiped turn 1-2. This is an attitude that has always been present in 40k since as early as I can remember when I started and a young lad in 2007. I still remember my first FLGS and trying to play with folks was a very... frustrating. It was mostly because I was a rule of cool player with CSM. I would pick units like Thousand Sons, defilers, Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc but the lists I was facing were very finely tuned lists you would expect from competitive play, like Long Fang Spam. Grey Knights of Draigowing or Castellanwing, etc. I didn't have local friends to play with as they weren't interested and the FLGS was the only place I could go to play. The experiences left me very.. bitter. I used to crusade the old Forums of Dakka Dakka trying to gain an understanding of how GW can make a game with very lopsided results, after all when you invest in an product the assumption and trust you place into the product to the game should be that they know what they're doing, right? From there I eventually accepted that I could not play the way I wanted too because asking players for a more laid back game were few and far between so I had to ramp up my games. I had time but not the money so I would wait months to create and recreate lists over and over to try and keep up with the meta, because that was the main existence of the game for me only for the meta to change when I eventually caught up. My efforts persisted up until 8E. By this time I had the money but not as much time as I got older and I eventually walked away from the gaming side altogether I would paint and try to make a "comeback" with a raptor force for my Night Lords but to little to no avail. I'm in a better place now. It's taken me six years but I now have friends who are of like-minds and now I'm enjoying the game a lot more, but I know I was lucky and it took grit to stay with the game as long as I had. I know there are folks out there who still do not have that privilege and my opinion is that it why we all craved for balance for so long in this game. Not everyone has the privilege of playing against like-minds or people who want that discussion of what type of game they want beforehand. Now the solution you present should be relatively simple approach to the game on how "We" can save it. The issue is that what the solution asks of us is to self-police our communities of our local stores, and that can lead to a lot of issues in practice as I've understood from experience. It's fragile and all it takes is one person who wants to be permanently competitive and the whole structure falls apart. It's an issue that has and still continues to persist even in todays game. I can only wonder what 10E will bring to try and alleviate the issues 9E presents.
I remember a bit of "ignorance was bliss" back in my first days of 5th. Just buying models, being more interested in what looked cool, and just making scrappy modeling decisions based on limited budget and having no space. I knew someone that painted using craft paints their friend got them from the factory when they purged the filling machines between colors so they were all slightly off. Early forums and you were more focused on the going ons locally than being able to figure out what an optimal list was.
The problem is, if they want a "living rules" set with constant rules churn then the rules need to be FREE and not PRINTED (due to print lag). It's just a based fact on print lag. Even discounting every other feature (such as bad play-testing, money grabs, shifting to sell models, or whatever) the roughly 6-month to store shelves print lag is incompatible with a "living" rules set that is updated often. 40K is also a "slow game". What that means is that buying, building, painting the models, familiarizing yourself with the rules, buying the codexes, the cards, etc Building your army is also not in alignment with the desired "model sales rate" nor with the "rules churn" rate. Which creates a stress in the community. Physical models take time to buy (cost), paint (time), and play (time, long periods of time). Forcing things with FOMO and other modern speed-sales-dynamics has been HARD on the community. Even discounting the raw monetary costs, it causes exhaustion, stress, confusion, anger. SLOW DOWN. If GW won't then the players need to force it by refusing to play the latest rules and latest versions of the rules as protest. Let them know we are done with their treadmill and are now operating on OUR OWN plans. The more players that do this the more GW will get the message they are not the ones at the helm. The players always have been.
That's so true. The constant FAQ thing isn't working. I understand why they're doing it and it's good, in theory, but spending 40 quid on a book, only for it to be mostly invalid isn't working. I think I'd pay like 20 a month to have access to ALL of the codexes, with updated rules, FAQs etc (and the app if it was better).
@@BroadswordWargaming Or go with maybe basic rules and codexes are free with War-zones and "battle modes" are treated as "expansion packs" which are purchased upgrades to your account. I am not a large fan of subscription content, if only because of it's predatory nature in this kind of setting (losing access to your game if you stop paying). In general there is kind of a basic metric of "break even" for "experiencing" your army in any given edition and its a surprisingly LARGE number of games, something like 60-100 games. No one gets nearly that much before the next update/change/expansion as it is, but in the older days of slower editions it was pretty common to work in that number before the next edition so you really "felt" that you "got your moneys worth and knew your army". It's all just so frenetic and thrashing about these days. I am a dinosaur by today's standard I still enjoy playing 7th with only a tiny amount of 8th and 9th. Heck, I still will sit down and enjoy a game of 3rd if both parties are of the mood for it.. or 5th. Before 4th came out I must have had at least 200 games of 3rd. I wasn't "that" active and had many tournaments. I wasn't really trying hard. It just was that long of a period of time. These days if a new player wanted to get in cheap. I'd say play an older edition where you can get everything 2nd hand if you happen to live somewhere where an older edition is still alive and kicking, which is the case more often than people often admit to openly. This used to be a game for young people and I'd like to see young people get back into it again.
Great, Great observations, commentary, and insight. I'm an older player returning to the hobby, and I know I will never play competitively. I love the idea of narrative play, and think your advice is great.
First rule of gaming: Have fun. Second rule of gaming: Your hobby, your way. Third rule: Games Workshop is not "the Hobby" and "the Hobby" is not Games Workshop. YOU are the hobby. So yes, if people don't like your kitbashed Matilda tank in your guard or ork army, if they don't like your trash terrain, if they don't like they way you play, find people that do. It's your money. It's your plastic spaceman army. Take control of your own hobby time.
Great over view of the issues but that last bit misses the point of a wargame even the first miniature wargame Little wars was competitive, chess is completive, The hyper crunch games real genrals and royalty played centuries ago with a GM was competitive. Albeit it was GMed for a reason and there was homebrew to make it more realistic. So why shouldn't 40K a wargame be? Which I think all the problems discussed in the video stem from the fact GW think they alone invented the miniature wargame hobby and have copywritten it... When they didn't... H. G. Wells did. Edit: Pretty much what II mean is GW a model company(Why the made Warhammer fantasy/40K in the first place was to sell models.) thinks they have the only thing in a market and that's not a good thing. Also I get the narrative and casual play like I love Mini War Gaming/Little Wars TV narrative campaigns and with friends you can play how ever you want I just think their should be a solid base first then you can homebrew it as those rule books are so expensive why wouldn't you want to use them as is?
I played with epic 40k when I was in the navy. I started playing warhamer 40k in 9th edition Sept 2021. I started playing space wolves because my squats where no longer. I enjoy competing in rtt and local gt. Now that squats are now LoV I am excited! Yes too many rules, but when you take stuff away ppl also complain. Price is an issue but in the end they are a business. Just like you you tube channel.
There's probably never going to be a version of 40K that universally loved by everyone. It's gotten to the point where there are so many factions it's impossible to balance and the best they can do is buff/nerf factions in seasons so that each faction has it's time in the spotlight. I was really happy with 9th when it was launched, but the bloat and introduction of seasons means its really hard for the majority of players to keep up with rules and means, unless you have multiple armies, you're going to go months with playing army that is not competitive.
GW developers and playtesters aren't serious tournament gamers and it shows but the vocal portion of the fanbase are. I don't think that portion is nearly a majority but they dominate the online community. I think that the GW team is focused on making a fun game, a game that they want to play to have fun. "Flavor" and "cool" supersede power balance. That usually doesn't make for a super tight, competitive rule set. Trying to then take that type game and appease the super vocal, competitive minority has lead to the layers of overlapping core, codex, supplement and FAQ/errata rules that have made the current game really unapproachable for the new player and have done a lot to dissuade me from actively seeking to get back into playing. I haven't played 40k since 5th, possibly 4th, ed. Overly complex games are inherently harder to balance. Adding more rules rather than stripping them away in the name of "balance" makes things worse not better.
Good video Ollie. On most points I agree and players should be Hobbying their way. I think the shift from basement/home gaming to competetive is one of the bigger change factors but also, if you notice, GW stores specifically aren't about gaming so much anymore. From several guys on the inside, playing in store is almost discouraged. Are you running into that at all?
Games Workshop makes great miniatures and hires excellent artists. However, their rulesets have always been behind the times (for example alternating activations). The rules are made to sell miniatures. Therefore it is dependent on constantly having to buy new units instead of actual gameplay. That is not fun at all and why I no longer play any games from Games Workshop. The easiest solution is to use a different ruleset like Grimdark Future from One Page Rules.
Yup, this game is massively bloated at the mo, played 2nd Ed and came back in 6th and was very happy with both. I’m gonna be playing crusade and modifying rules until they sort this out .
I agree, I like WH 40k and want to get my eldar army started, but for some reason, the game seems to indicate that one has to follow all the content, there is this air around the idea of WH 40k related to being "up to date" with what GW releases. How many people play other editions of WH? it seems to me that not a lot of people think about the narrative side of the game or home brewing rules to make it more entertaining. I think the game lends itself more on the stories you can create but since it is the most mainstream game around, the competitive aspect takes over the thought of play.
Very well said, thank you! Sadly my wife and I haven’t had much chance to play 40k in quite some time, but when we do play games we do our best to play with this same spirit in mind. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!
loosing is fine when you have atleast a fair chance at winning but getting practically tabled in turn one sucks. I have lost most of the games of 40k that i have played which did make the victories more sweet
At the end of the day it's a game and if you play casually you can amend the rules with your opponent so it enjoyable for everyone. At the end of the day I believe it about epacsim and having fun and meeting people with a shared interest . Hope folks are having a lovely weekend :).
I started collecting AdMech in 8th edition because I liked their aesthetic. I took a break so I missed out when they were strong in early 9th. I rarely win any games at my local game store. These days I’m mostly in the hobby for painting and collecting. The game isn’t that fun outside of crusade games between my personal friend group in my opinion. My group does ‘home brew’ rules and stuff to fit narratives but I just assumed it’s because we came from playing dnd where homebrew is the name of the game. You put into words what I’ve been feeling all this time. Well done.
Been playing since 2nd edition, really enjoying 9th edition but I don’t do much matched play. Mostly do open or narrative play. Really love the crusade rules they are fantastic and have really made 9th edition shine for me. Best played with some mates you meet up with regularly it just adds a nice D&D/campaign element to playing the game. Perfect, for my group at least. I also love power levels, really can’t be bothered with all that points nonsense these days. Power levels makes it so easy to quickly make a game that’s balanced enough for everyone to have a fun time. It’s interesting you say you see less Crusade in store and online, I’d be interested to know if that’s because it is played less than the other ways to play or if it’s just that it lends itself/appeals more to the kind of gamers who play at home in a more relaxed way. I think it’s a shame the internet shines a light on matched play so much and less on open and narrative, as a lot of people’s complaints about 9th really only affect matched play. If you’re reading this comment and you’ve not tried Crusade or any kind of narrative or open play for 40K go ahead and do it. It’s an absolute blast and I have as much fun losing as I do winning as you’re creating a shared story and narrative with your friends. In my opinion it is easily the best way to play 40K.
Is wh40k dead? I can't speak for everyone, but, I haven't played 40k for over a year. 8th edition is my favourite edition and I started playing at the same time of you. Right now I just want 10th edition to throw out so much complexity and learn from age of sigmar. AOS was always a side project for me while 40K 8th edition was doing it thing. Unfortunately increasing complex strategems and unbalanced Secondary objectives and a headache inducing narrative section in each codex turned me off of the game. At the same time AOS got a new edition which is so simple and fun! Okay aos path of glory is also not my cup of tea, but matched play and open are brilliant. If 40k 10th edition copies aos' match play then I expect that I will fall back in love with 40k. I do like the improvements gw have made to 40k daemons and orks. But, I want to see aos orders and armies with roughly 3 to 4 cps and a few bonus cps and orders from battalions. The best games are simple ones in my opinion. 9th edition 40k is oh... just bleugh. This is just my opinion and other opinions are just as valid. I accept such a radical overhaul could end up annoying fans of 9th Ed. The funny thing is that the compromise is.... 8TH EDITION! :)
I got into 40k at 3rd edition and played until 7th. It was too much and I wasn’t having fun anymore, plus GW’s practices at the time really pushed me away. 8th edition sealed it. I really REALLY disliked 8th and 9th didn’t fix anything for me. Note, I haven’t actually played 8th or 9th and probably won’t ever. I moved on to other games I am passionate about, but I occasionally check in and see what 40k rules are up to.
Actually, It's a bit of a 2 edged sword.... GW obiously wants people to play in tournaments and enjoy themselves, but they also want to sell products and thus make old models better to sell them or to make the new one "OP" to again sell them... GW also likes to break their own rules to make stuff better. How many weapons ignore INVUNRABLE saves nowdays? Maybe to balance out a game to be in annyway competitive we would need an independent organisation wich makes rules and adjusts them acordingly with live rulebooks - it won't be a 100% perfect but may make for a real chalenging tournament experience. IMHO the game should also use 8 or 10 sided dice, this breaks the need for things like Armour of contempt and weapons that ignore invun saves...
I remember, when a w40k army was 30 marines, 2 characters , 2 support Heroes small units and 0-3 vehicles. And this was not some single build, l stretch to get 2000pts . No sir, if you took 3 vehicles, then you ain't taking 30 infantry. If you took 30 infantry you will not fit 2-3 vehicles. Etc.
I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition. The endless rules bloat, supplements, formations, FAQs, strategems, points drops/rises...all made for a game that was no longer enjoyable. Fortunately, I've been able to breathe new life into my massive 40K model collection by using them in alternative games (e.g., Grimdark Future, Starbreach, etc.).
I agree that the CP/Stratagem rules take the fun out of the games. Gotcha moments lead to frustration (Kinda like disgusting resilience.) I prefer the mission rules from 2nd Edition. Each player draws a random mission. I think a re-draw would be appropriate if the mission drawn is impossible (like slay the witch vs Necrons.) One feature I like is that the opponents may have completely different objectives. I do not like the shifting missions/secondaries as these add complexity that doesn't add much fun. The games simulate at most a few minutes in a larger battle. One primary goal and one secondary goal are plenty. I would like to see a simplified casual play version. Battle for Vedros was interesting from this perspective. I am very interested in One Page Rules. I would like to see core models that cost less and are easy to build to encourage entry into the hobby or new armies. I would like to see colored plastic by faction so people who don't want to paint can still play and easily tell which models are theirs. An example of these core units would be Tactical / Intercessor Squad and Captain for Space Marines (Blue plastic) or Boyz and Warboss for Orks (Green Plastic). I like the Combat Patrol Boxes but I feel the price tag is too high for a beginner. Smaller/less expensive faction starter boxes would allow more kids to start. The Core rules should be free. Points values and new missions for competitive play should be a quarterly download/publication. The models should come with their datasheets (and power level for casual play). The datasheets should include any special rules that unit has. The codices should be lore, heraldry and paint guides. They should be compiled into larger faction tomes. These codices should be completely optional. I have been playing 40K since the transition from Rogue Trader to 2nd. I have yet to play 9th. I will probably try 10th. I may switch to One Page Rules. The current state of the rules and the rate at which GW pumps out additions and changes is pushing me to switch. I am a 29 year veteran of 40K and I have grown tired of the constant churn of product. I have noticed the shady "mistakes" that pop up on Warhammer Community that are then edited without comment. When all the errors mislead in the same manner, I am skeptical of GW's motives. I love the hobby. GW is not the only source for wargaming hobby. I love the GW minis and lore. GW's business practices have soured my opinion of the company. If you got this far, thank you for reading my rambling thoughts.
I started in 8th so I have a very recent view of things. But even I have gotten tired of the bloat and constant change and the obvious favoritism and just how swingy things are. Whatever army got a codex recently, there's a great chance they're going to overpower most everything else with new mechanics and stuff. Strength of weapons has been creeping up and up while Toughness seemed hard-capped at 8, meaning that after a while even the tankiest of things just felt made of tissue paper. AP was getting out of control, and rules to ignore other rules that ignore rules. It just became a mess and don't even get me started on how utterly rediculous the primaris look and got, and the subsequent neglect of the real Marines. I almost entirely dropped out of playing Warhammer 40k, at least on the Marines side. I might still field my Orkz or my Sisters once they don't feel completely outmatched, but I still feel like every 2 weeks I need to completely rebuild my list because of a random rule/point change. And I do mean completely. When Sisters got their Codex initially, I had 3 battle sister squads with 2 Storm Bolters in each. Perfectly legal then, but after a month or so something changed and now I had to convert those normal Battle Sisters to Celestians in order to not have to re-do ALL my models, which COMPLETELY borked my points and force org. It was a nightmare of a mess and it makes me not want to return to it. I didn't drip Warhammer completely though! With Horus Heresy 2.0, I have refocused almost ENTIRELY there. It's been out for months and the only list tweaks I've done to my THREE armies has been because I noticed something just wasn't working for me, so I shifted to something else. Shifts prompted entirely by myself and not the rules updating randomly. It's felt very balanced and simple, while retaining a lot of complexity. Now I do wish that their stat sheets looked more like 8th+edition sheets with all the info on the same sheet, but once you start learning all the rules it starts to become pretty intuitive, and you don't need to keep track of a billion stratagems that can completely alter each turn. I do feel it could use a little tweak as I've noticed that most games you can figure out if you will win or lose based off a single turn which doesn't feel very good, but I think it's infinitely more balanced and enjoyable than modern 40k, so anytime I feel like running Marines I go to that system instead, which is a bit sad because some 40k exclusive models (like Thunderwolf Cavalry) are rad as hell.
Harrumph Harrumph Harrumph. I totally agree with you 110% Have fun. It's a game, all be it a potentially expensive game, depending on your wallet and your table size. I'm definitely in the have fun category, whether that's in the building painting or playing of the game. 🙌🏻🎉❤️
I haven't played 'official' 40K in so long. Too many special rules to manage. Too many stats to juggle. Too many books to carry and update. I've looked into One Page Rules Grimdark Future and their Firefight games and I like what I see.
I bought my first Space Marines in the late 80s. Where is the technology that I dreamed of back then? Like, fifteen years ago I bought my son 2 radio-controlled tanks that could shoot at each other with sound effects, and register when they were hit, but GW's technology has stood still. Now laser pointers are common, so why aren't they in GW laser-cannon models? Some say the miniatures are collectibles, but if so, where are the advanced features like you get for model aircraft, like photo-etched parts? And why is there so much dice rolling?! To hit, to wound, re-rolling, saves, command-point re-roll. It's so slow! With dice rolling apps on phones, I and my opponent could do all the rolling in two shakes. What with the complicated game and high cost, it must be off-putting to potential new gamers. I wish GW and Oliver well, but GW needs to move with the technology, so more new players visit Oliver's shop.
I walked into my FLGS yesterday and there was a 40k Tournament going on, I had zero interest in it. I do love the models and there was a time where I was in a tournament at least once a month. There is so much stuff like you said that you have to keep up with it just bored me out of the game. I like the WHO cares thing with the rules. Once a while back I wanted to play my Blood Angels with ADMech and people literally looked at me like I was nuts, first thing out of their mouth...YOU wont have any CPs... My reply.. "so?". I guess I've never been much of a competitive player, I just want to have a beer and throw some dice and unfortunately the way 40k is now I just can't. The turn structure is OLD it needs to go no one wants to sit the for 45 min while your stuff gets blown off the table.. I think they need to move beyond the d6 as well. I kind of miss the whole Wargear card thing. Everyone got them all so you knew what was coming.
Completely remove rerolls. Rerolls are just an excuse for lazy rules writing where the designer has given up with their own rules. The more rerolls a system have the worse the system is. Universal special rules need to return, a simple but highly effective concept scrapped for renaming the rule to suit the datasheet with no consistency even between units in the same codex. I am not a fan of stratagems, they were never needed as they were the source of gotcha moments. If you despirately need to enforce them, then change them to single effect with single or no restrictions, and only allow one strat to be used per dice roll. CP currency has no purpose other than making the game more complicated than needed, make all strats free to use but as stated earlier only one can be used at a time. Then you can make strats actually interesting. Make character actually effective characters and not basically unit sergeants, as sergeants are redundant now. Allow customisation through wargear and upgrades with granular points, designing your own character and playing with it was one of the highlights of 40k, now that it doesnt exist you basically have unit upgrade by attaching a character.
I play Imperial guard in 40K. Got invested at the tail end of 8th. 9th absolutely made the game a pain to play between codex creep and everything else. Couldn’t win a game even with good strategy. Switched over to Horus heresy 1.0 where I play solar Auxilia. It’s pretty balanced and it’s far easier to understand. No strategems or ridiculously confusing victory conditions.
110% agreed. As somebody who also plays Table Top RPGs. Homeruling/houseruling etc with your own community and friends is key to having fun with gaming table top anything.
So here's my take and someone who's been around this hobby and geek culture for a fair few years. There are two extremes of table top gaming, narrative and competitive, most people are probably not at either extreme but the further you get away from the middle group the less compatible those players are (e.g. a fairly extreme narrative player probably won't have fun against a more extreme competitive player). We all have to acknowledge that this is fine and furthermore it's fine that GW are making games for both sets of players. 40k Skewes towards completive play and 30k towards narrative in my experience. That's the good news, if you find yourself favouring one style over the other then there's a game and the be fair (in the UK at least) a tournament scene for you. It's also why LFGS are so important, it's a fun space where you can learn which type of game is for you and find other like minded people as well as a place you can set up the type of tournaments you want to play. As an aside tabletop gaming could learn something from comic books here too, every edition from RT through to 9th are still out there with a lot of the models being compatible. So just as it's fun to go back and read Batman's Knightfall (for example) you can do the same with wargaming. Don't like 8/9th edition but prefer the 40k setting ? Then hit ebay and grab some old rulebook and/or codex books.
Man, last year I hook my friend with Kill Team (first Kill Twam) with Intercessors fighting me Death Guards. Its just complete mission, where his guys need to 3 block sewage entrance to stop Poxwalker from comming. Im only starts with 3 Plagues Marines and D3 on each entrance. Its a lot of fun!
I've played 40k since 3rd Edition but I haven't played very much of 9th Edition. I'm just not a fan of CPs, Stratagems and the overall rules bloat. I would like to see the game go back to a set number of "generic" special rules in the main rule book which are then doled out to the various armies and units within those armies to give them their character. That way, when my opponent says "this unit has special rule A", I know what that rule is and what it does. I don't have to be familiar with my opponent's Codex. Also, the game really needs to limit re-rolls and modifiers which reduce armor saves. Personally, I think -3 should be the most a save can be modified and that should be very rare.
Why does it matter? Because an avarge salary is 450-550$, Warhammer becomes serious. It has been like that in the 90s too, when the avarge salary was 120-130$ . That is why recasting was huge here since day one, people weren't interested in painting unless they were doing comissions for western players.
We have been playing “Warhammer” for years under our own simple rules - and had fun. No Codexes, no updates, no “retired” armies. Just a bunch of guys enjoying themselves. We found that Warhammer was much like a Windows operating system - so completely bogged down with “bloatware” that it ceased to be fun playing by their “rules”. Still buying the models (putting them together is half the fun) but not the grossly overpriced and far too complicated volumes that get released all the time and supersede the ones you may have only recently bought.
I'd love to play 40k but everybody wants matched hardcore games with every little faq, strategy and secondary, is frustrating and not fun at all. So I just stick to Warcry and sometimes KT.
It sadly is like having to know every faction really well, when facing 20+ factions and so many chapters and houses or dynasties, we can't follow all the minutia to play at a moderate or even high level. The game has gone beyond just gun line and terrain tactical, to just bloated trap carding, uno reverso, gotcha gaming. This why Necromunda and Kill team is so appealing to many of us, small, simple, terrain based, tactical. Perhaps small simple 500 pt gunline/cqc rush now and then.
Balance has always been BS, and has destroyed so many games. Play whats fun, things are cyclical, ad quite worry about "winning". Enjoy the high spots in each game, cool events by all players. Laugh when astoundingly bad rolls happen. Its just an excuse to hang out with friends at its core, remember that.
I wouldn’t say it is broken. Yes, 40K is complex but I love those moments, when my opponent comes with a surprising twist. I’d rather say that you have a big point with the narrative aspects of the game. I love playing RPGs like DnD and Pathfinder and there is always this guy who wants to max the characters out on a meta side, rather than really acting out who his character is. Somehow 40k became just the opposite. Most players I experience are rather focusing on the meta game rather than creating awesome stories.
Something that really shifted me to playing Warcry and Necromunda vs. AoS and 40k is the big picture non-competitive nature of the games and the built in structures to keep finding fun despite what happens in a turn. It's not to say that you don't want to win, but the culture around both games is about playing more vs. winning. Necromunda has all sorts of tools between tactics cards, allies for weaker gangs, and an actual arbitrator that support weaker gangs and keep them in the fight. Warcry...takes less than an hour to play, and if you hate your warband you can put a new one together for a feasible amount of money with 5 to 15 models. I like all of the thoughts and suggestions you talk through on keeping the focus on a good time. As a non-40k-er at this point, I think the crusade format seems really cool, buuuut I too see how many folks have shifted back to competitive play!
40k is way too complex tbh. I don't mind when something is complex if it stays the same for some time. We mainly play narrative games at home and come up with our own twists on the rules to keep it fun. For some reason my 40k friend group is all about using the best lists and keeping up with every rules change. I think we hardly play any games because of it. I'm a relatively new player and started playing in the tail end of 2018 but I can count the number of games we played by heart. What I understand from the more seasoned players is that they used to play at least once every month. Sure we are a bit older and people have other things going on (family, kids, wife), but we all play other games frequently, so it's not a time issue.. I feel the situation is created by the players themselves. I noticed that most 40k players take this game pretty seriously. The lore, colour schemes, painting...ow my god the painting. There are two guys in our group who started painting their armies three years ago and they still haven't played a game using them. For reference I painted three 3000 point armies in that time. Yes I don't take the painting as serious as they do, but come on put your back into it. I think this seriousness is what is gripping most players detriment to enjoy the game. They don't want to be "that" guy who turns up to a game with (some) unfinished model, or the one who isn't up to the latest of their opponents rules so they rather delay playing which translates into not playing at all for some. 40k is just another game for me..I'm not "that" invested into the lore, the hobby part or the "my army used to be great and now it sucks" reasoning. 4 years into the hobby and I still feel like an outsider looking in sometimes. 40k players are a rare breed my friend.
I just play the game as it is. After playing since 5ed I have come to the conclusion that there will always be issues, and you will never make everyone happy. I just play a faction that makes me happy and find the best way to play them. Will I win every game? No. I shouldn't win every game. How will I ever get a game in if I always win? I'm happy that GW is taking more interest in their game and it's balance. I look forward to seeing what they do in the future.
Personally the index books that dropped at the beginning of 8th was the last time I was truly excited about the game. Everything was trimmed down and easier to play, and the lists had the scope to be expanded in a number of ways Then GW introduced stratagems, which imho has ruined the game They're not inherently bad, but the fact that they're something that's used during the game is a mistake The command point/stratagem system has the potential to be great as a list building tool I.e. force orgs give you a certain number of command points, which can be spent on command traits, relics, and static buffs/abilities to certain units denoted at the start of the battle, etc 🤷🏼♂️
Coming back to the hobby recently, it does seem like GW are clinging onto print based hardware for codexes too much or rather i should say they are messing around with the rules too much, if they want to keep the books relevant. Wahipeadia and battle scribe is so much better a resource and free lol. It's one thing having rules bloat, but it is further compounded by the rate in which they keep changing them, which to me just takes me think they arn't play testing stuff enough before printing them. Games have to flow, and have some sense of realism (lol i know it's 40k) so all these extra stratagems and rerolls is getting alittle too silly especially when you need about 3-4 books and FAQs to reference (and know in side out) just to have a game. Thinking around this perhaps the game should be turn based but by unit rather than the whole army, like the new kill team, then all this rules and strats bloat will allow for some flow between armies and move away for crazy first turn meta dominating the game
I'd love to get back into 40k, I only ever really played necromunda when it came out in the late 90s, simply because the rules were just easier to follow, I'd try 40k but the rules just seem a bit mental when I watch UA-cam play videos, it's the main thing that puts me off
I agree with everything you said. There is definitely room for a more casual friendly version of the ruleset without all the stratagems and special case rules. I would say the "need" for all those special case rules indicates a failure of the core rules mechanic to recreate the experience they want to present. Or if you're cynical it's all just a ploy to sell books and models and churn the customer base. In either case, by not having a more friendly ruleset or game mode for casual players, Gw are actually leaving money on the table and encouraging players to look elsewhere. Adoption of One Page Rules, Stargrave, Galactic Heroes, and other indy and home rules is growing.
Well, the game can be a rotten bloaty mess and it would be somewhat fine, I mean, 40k has so much stuff that it is impossible to be perfectly balanced. The problem begins when the messy game is managed by a predatory business model that aims short term returns above everything else. I'm with you on the whole "simplified" narrative gameplay, I honestly think that narrative plah turns away people because there's a lot of bookeeping in between games if you want to play by the rules with Crusade or something like that. Competitive play is a better platform because supposedly it allows players to just enjoy a game and be done with it.
I stopped playing 40k, it's mostly necromunda for me because I think it has better, more interesting/immersing rules. I find modern 40k to be too much of a 'most expensive model wins.'
Pretty much agree with this, I am a casual player that does not play enough, but played this weekend with a friend and there are so many special rules and so many stratagems to learn which when you have not been able to study the codex in detail can leave you floundering and already at a disadvantage. Biggest issue for me is all the books and FAQs. They need to sort out their electronic codex and provide free updates to them and the rule book including all the changes from Campaign books. 'This isn't a bashing video' well your title says different
It's so good to hear this kind of point of view sometimes, the Internet is so overwhelmed with people complaining about any single bit of rule and their army being nerfed and the army next door being buffed and whatnot... Soooooo boring, we're here for the fun for the Empereror's sake!!!!!!
In a nut shell, competitive taking over is ruining 40k, lets get more casual and narrtive. Couldnt agree more, I moved to a country where the small local communituy is 100% competitive and the new guys are just over the top obsessed with it, the worst of competitive being the major way to play the game if not the only its how it feed on fomo, Localy th ecommunity is very accepting of 3d proxies and recasts since the local prices are higher the australia and the economy is shit, so people will show up with unpainted crappy 3d prints from a week to another desparetely trying to fit the met as it moves.
I started playing back in 5th edition, over the years I have had a new army every edition and a few non starts with other factions, my issues with the “game” is that to play I need multiple books, a decent study session before a game then find that there are endless scenarios in game where we stop to consult the “books” to clarify a point of decision, ultimately my gaming circle now have ended up using the current rules as a frame work for our games and agree on what we think is right on the game and at the moment to make it fair. We don’t used CP or strats but do flirt with the various command protocols or mechanisms most army have. What I have learnt on my 4 soon to be 5 editions of plying is that tourneys are for those who are serious players I am not and therefore the rules get bent when I play to keep playing and most importantly of all keep having fun. In terms of the cost of playing it’s gotten out of hand and frankly that is where I believe we as customers are being let down, we live in a digital age where I should be able to buy a physical codex then be able to download a version that is always updated and I don’t need umpteen FAQs or errattas every couple of weeks. I know the app exists but in my experience it’s not user friendly and aimed mainly at list building rather than having a digital codex. The books should be buy from once not every year. I love the game and that it brings together all walks of life and is massively inclusive however profit margins are starting to dictate the enjoyment I get as and end user. Anyway that’s my 2p worth. Happy gaming all.
I think GW should just do what they do best, which is design model kits, and that's it. They should simply outsource the gaming side of things to another company like Wizards of the Coast who have more intelligent game designers.
The problem with Warhammer is that its stopped being a WARgame, and feels more now like a glorified board game, with the way command points and objectives work. Also alot of the brief but fluffy rules writing feels underused compared to reroll bubbles. I also miss blast templates and it actually mattering where you place models in relation to the direction theyre being shot at
Great video, it's important to remind everyone that most of us aren't really competitive players, even though we think we sometimes are :P. I think people in general overreact to the latest meta and balance changes. I saw leagues of votan on the used shelf at my LGS because someone was upset about the prelaunch nerf.. idk they still seem pretty high power still, but this is one example of someone overreacting to what the internet says they "should" be doing. The best way to play this game is to find a couple of like minded individuals and discuss what kind of game you want to play and like you mentioned, find a way to make it fun because at the end of the day this should be an enjoyable past time for everyone involved.
The rules change, the models stay. I like narrative play, but my friends want to play matched, and the argument is that it is more balanced that way...but I think it will never be balanced. I still buy models that I like, maybe they are not the best right now, but maybe they will be good later...who cares :)
the two biggest problems with the game are stratagems and secondary objectives. They need to remove/reduce stratagems and replace them with something much simpler so you can just hand your opponent one sheet of paper and be like this is everything I can do with my command points. They also need to remove unique secondary objectives because asymmetrical objectives are impossible to balance properly. The objectives should always be the same for both players.
To hell with GW and 40k; GW has picked our pockets for way too long; Mantic and One Page Rules are a lot more fun, and they don't have their hands in my pockets
Started in RT. The game has come along in some ways, shit the bed in others. By fourth edition, the battalion strength games were well underway, and GW lost a lot of talent in the design department, leaning tword the second and third tier designers. It all went downhill from there. Because they are pushing so much details in the models, they are losing the focus on aligning the games evolution with the models, and the reasonable evolution of the rules sets to include the new vehicles/ models. Command Points... low so they are used sparingly. Someone along the way forgot that they were making a game for 10+ armies, not just for themselves. Stratagems... get rid of them. add them to the armies in the same way as the regimentals were with the regimental system. Then you can have an army that is yours, not just another cookie cutter internet theory-hammer clone.
If people buy models only to win, blame them. Don’t blame the game. Blame our own messed up minds for having obsessions about winning and power, instead of knowing how to be happy. Some people love absolutely just steam rolling the opposition.
I ussualy play kill team and my mates Daemons still don't have a proper team. So we just invented rules for his models and chucked them on the board. He's having more fun playing and im having more fun cause I can talk him into joining me for games
been playing since end of 3rd start of 4th edition. I still dabble but no were near as much as i used to mainly due to lack of interest with 8th and 9th edition and the primarus marines however still enjoying Heresy 2.0.
Do you still play Warhammer 40k? If so, are you happy with the current ruleset? Let me know! BE NICE! :)
Not played 40k in some years. 6th ed I think. Still play Necromunda 1st Ed and got hooked with the new Horus Heresy so I'm back :)
I have 8th and 9th but still haven't played 9th. And I have an old Rogue Trader edition.😋
I was planning on collecting an elite imperium united army when I seriously entered the TT hobby in 2019. But then GW raised prices making my army over $2k USD and I decided just to collect and play other TT wargames instead. And now have a cabinet full of armies that I got for around the same price as a low model 40K army. So Yeah GW being greedy lost out on a customer and frankly positive press as I'm press besides the few things they do price fairly.
Not at all , IMO the game system has become too expensive and volatile to play anymore. I'd rather go with legacy systems like HH or the skirmish games like Warcry/Killteam cause lets be honest - most balanced games within GW's catalogue.
I don't play anymore. I played several games of 8th and found that I didn't like it, I didn't like the strat or CP system, I didn't like how it played, that 9/10 if you had 1st turn, you will. You may and well roll a d6 and see who went first, thwn roll a d6 to steal first turn, thwn say good game. Now I am aware this has been taken out in 9th when reading the rules, however they have bloated the points system, they've bloated the CP and strat systems, that I just went "nah, no chance am I playing this". Now with the massive power creep, just no, bit touching it. I hope 10th goes back to basics lile 4th or 5th. Lets get rid of all this bumph nonesense they brought in
I started in 2nd edition. It was wild, kinda wacky but fun. Most of my play time was during 3rd edition. Looking back now, I think the most enjoyable aspect was that everything you needed to know about each unit was in a paragraph or two, including their stat block. Your army and your opponent's was relatively easy to keep track of. Most of your attention/thought process was pointed at the game board. "Oh, my terminators don't care about that squad's Splinter Rifles, but the Disintegrator Cannon will be a problem." Your losses revolved around positioning and timing of when to go in, or retreat.
Currently, you have to worry about what 5 things are my opponent about to combo together out of the 20 things they *can* do(that are spread out through 3 books and several pages of FAQ and Errata)
I agree completely. It’s complexity for complexities sake. The game wasn’t made better by all these editions.
Fully agree. I only started playing during 8th, but the speed at which the rules are changed is really putting me off tbh. I only play 2 to 3 times a year and I have the feeling I'll have to relearn the game because of the complexity and the never ending changes.
Recently I decided to delve into A Song of Ice and Fire and I must say that game is really easy to learn and I have more games from this game under my belt than with 40k.
I'm looking forward to the WE codex, so I'm still here
"The rules are a guideline." Thanks for pointing that out. I enjoyed listen to this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
its fine to say that, but when I want to just run down to the store and get a quick game in, I don't want to spend an hour before hand negotiating rules.
Was a bit worried when I saw the clickbait title but the content was spot on. Playing a small bit of 40k casually, don't see myself playing competitively but unfortunately most events are competitive events. More league weekends or narrative events would be welcome as I think that is were 40k really shines.
I love 9th and am having a lot of fun with it. I do think the Strats are an issue. It makes the game way too complex. Personally I'd strip them back. Ideally I'd like it if armies had access to the Core strats and you had to pick a few before the game as part of your army list, perhaps 1 per 500 points. Make them one use only too. This way it would be easy to tell your opponent which ones you had when you explain your list and it's much less complex. You could even give the strats points values so they are fundamental parts of the army building process.
I've always bought the models that I liked regardless of whether or not they are the most effective for the faction I want to build/play. I desperately want to play Crusade mode. Time is the issue. So I spend more time building/painting than playing.
Great video, I myself used to play competitive back in 7th but never ran the best units just the ones I liked. I'd say a 40-60% win ratio but had fun so never worried, I find that part of the game for me now has just lost any fun so only play narrative and only use the rules as needed to help the story along. Much more enjoyable in my opinion.
Me and my regular opponent just play small 500 point casual games where we don’t even use stratagems. We both quite enjoy the simplicity of it. I would like to see two separate versions of 40k 10th edition when it comes out - Standard edition and tournament edition. I also find it a particularly bad rule to be able to spend cp points to re-roll failed dice rolls, especially key ones that can change the outcome of a game, I’ve experienced this and it kind of ruined the game for me. I personally would ditch the cp re-rolls and limit the number of stratagems so the game is more about core and army rules.
In all honesty. I don't think GW ruined anything. I mostly think it is the people that have changed. Back when I started Warhammer 40K and Fantasy were pretty damn complex too, it's just that most people now have the attention span of a housefly. They do not want, nor can they focus on anything for longer than 5 seconds. This is also why those 5 seconds per round multiplayer videogames are so popular, or phone games. It's also why nobody reads any books any more. People just don't have any attention span and also a huge lack of intelligence. I'm not saying GW doesn't have some uneccessary bloat here and there (they could do away with stratagems completely) BUT for the most part out of my experience organinising a Warhammer Tabletop Club with over 70 people, it is mostly the people themselves being at fault.
This is the way today, everybody else is at fault, except the people themselves.
This is the exact general message I was aiming for. I really think people have changed, a lot, in the last 30 years. Self regulation is the way. All comes down to who you play with I think :) Well put!
I agree completely! The best games I've ever played have been fluffy narrative games where we almost "roleplay" the events. We still try to win, but if the space marines are too easily crushing the aliens... Suddenly the aliens get loads of reinforcements! And now it becomes a desperate last stand. But then perhaps the marines get an extra turn or something right at the end.
The worst games I've ever played were at tournaments, unfortunately.
complete opposite for me and many others, wargames that are hyper competitive/well balanced and tournament viable are where wargaming truly shines.
2nd was where I started. God the old cardboard cutouts. Always played for the fun and story of it, never got into the meta chase :)
Same, I absolutely loved the game back then (although I was about 30 years younger haha).. such are the ravages of time!
All of my friends and me started with 9th edition. I just kind of assumed 40K wasn’t a very good game, because I was always so bored and aggravated. Too much bloat and unit imbalance.
So we got the dominion box for age of sigmar, the seraphon start collecting, and the nighthaunt start collecting. And we tried age of sigmar for a couple games.
I WILL NOT play 40K until 10th edition or maybe never. And that is solely because of how AWESOME AND FUN Age of Sigmar is. Rules are better, fluff is better, thematic game elements are more fun, and game mechanics are 1000x more interesting.
And it’s significantly cheaper than 40K. Just better in almost every
Way. I very much suggest everyone try age of sigmar
I loved 40k since Rogue Trader but I missed out 4th. I still love the models but 40k now feels like it has a card game added on which I very much dislike so I don't really play. I prefer Horus Heresy
I am the same. I really like HH, and it's the main game I've played these past few years. Ah 7th, it had it's charms.
But there is a silver bullet solution... OPR: Grimdark Future
I'm of the opinion that if you dont like it just use any iteration of previous rules that you want in agreement with your opponent. I find it complicated and difficult but ultimately I love it and I'm happy to go with whatever rules there are currently in place.
Absolutely, just play the game you and your friends want. Use them as a guideline, but the main thing is to have fun and chill! :)
The issue is you don't always have a choice... Whether at a torement or a TT shop.
The idea of "play whatever version you want" doesnt work in multiplayer games
Exactly. I play an updated 2nd edition with my friends, but you can use Project Anvil to use the codices from 3rd or 4th to get the perfect blend of modern 40k lore and factions with the classic rules and feel of the more chaotic and narrative driven gameplay.
You can even order plastic tokens on ebay for 2nd edition.
@@Qew77 It can if you ask the people you are playing with nicely.
All of this is honestly why I hoped out to their skirmish games
Warcry is the game I play the most now.. and I've started dabbling into Underworlds. Easy, short, fast and fun! :)
@@BroadswordWargaming Necromunda for me. It’s built from the ground up for the narrative campaign and I love that
kill team is super good rn
@@serse8455 yeah it is
@@serse8455
Yeah, I was just about to say, the best way to fix 40k is to play kill team.
I get the points you make. But if I was running a shop where I sold 40K products, I think I would put more emphasis on what GW are doing to bring new players into the hobby. My perspective is that the 40K game in its current state is impossible to get in to. GW seems to have the attitude that the solution to every problem is for players to throw more money at it. 40K is currently a byzantine moving target for a new starter. And rather than simplify the point of entry, GW seem to be doubling down on requiring the interested player to flagellate their wallet in order to take part. This is not a sustainable business model.
Great video Olly, and I think you’ve touched on the reason I’m more into the hobby side, and avoid the gaming side. I really like the positivity of your approach as well! Thanks my dude.
"Playing the game the way you want to play, as opposed to how it's 'supposed' to be played" is the key comment in this video. I'm a sporadic player of 40K (haven't played since 7th) but I play lots of other GW games... and lots of games by other companies. When 8th edition launched, they had those Index - [Faction] books... Imperium, Chaos, Xenos, etc. At that time, I saw those books and thought, "that'll probably be the best version of 40K that'll exist for this edition. The simpler the rules, the better." but I knew that once the proper codices came out, people would chuck those books in the dustbin. A big mistake, imho, but I never played that edition, so really, I have no idea! lol. I started with 2nd edition around '96 and none of us were using house rules, FYI. Maybe back in Rogue Trader days, but not for 2nd. I had many a fun game with friends in 2nd & 3rd. I had a handful of fun tourney games and just as many (if not more) bad experiences. Play for fun, people.
I really don't think the game is dead. Tbh it seems more popular than ever. But I do think we put too much value on tournament play and balance. There is a reason small dnd groups with house rules end up being the best campaigns as opposed to official events. But that just an opinion. Really I just think we should shift focus to having fun whether it's fluff games or competitive, rather than just focusing on the e-sport aspect kind of thing
I play every week. 40k has never been in a better place. I play casual crusade games, the new tempest of war casual games, and super competitive on a chess clock games. Like every edition of the game there are things that could be improved or done better but honestly of all the editions I have played ( 3.5 to 9th ) its in its best state.
I also play Horus Heresy 2.0 and AoS.
For the casual player I don't think there is really a issue. Look if you don't know the rules that well don't worry about it. Just play the game. If you only play with a tight circle of your friends then it really doesn't matter what rules you use or don't use as long as your consistent. Even then it's relative.
friend and I play crusade since last year only using power points and the crusade book missions. this is the only way I can see myself play 40K. It doesn't matter if I win or lose, it doesn't matter that my opponent has 250pts more in points, it' about having a cool story being created by the dice rolls. one game Typhus went down to a contemptor dreadnaught. the next game he wrecked the contemptor, went on to kill the librarian, tech marine and apothecary by himself, tanking absolutely everything being thrown his way. it was epic!
People come to my place to play. My House rules are fun over rules. We only introduce a rule when we all understand it. We only just introduced the stratagems. We also dont make a big deal about anything being interpreted wrong. Even mid game, I just say roll with it. Its 40k something weird happened and lets see how it plays out.
Haven watched yet but hot take....Best way ?
Easy .. dump it and play Grim Dark Furture.
My play group has switched out to one page rules for now, The rules bloat was just getting too much.
It's honestly nice to play a game that didn't feel like a test in bookkeeping.
The art of simple rules that offer deep strategic and tactic options is a very difficult one. Endless 'special' rules are a ham-fisted way of trying to get there.
I really hope they bring Reactions to a future edition of 40k.
For Stratagems, removing them altogether would remose some flavour. Maybe have a deck of cards and you pick a few before the begining of the game, and carefuly design them to remove any gotcha moments?
I agree completely, that is the issue with losing strats. I did do a part on that (but I removed in the edit to keep the video shorter) and mentioned that the difficulty with a d6 game is it doesn't leave a lot of room to navigate factions strengths or weaknesses. A D20 would make 2+ Extremely likely, and a 20 Extremely unlikely.. but I think D20 is too wide for new players. It's a tough line. It's the gotcha moments that make it a horrible experience.
put the cool abilities on the data cards, so they can be point balanced for what they do.
Thing is, there are the bones of that already in place - strategems come in categories. So just say that, pre-game, you can select one strategem from each category for your army to have access to. If there are two you want from the same category, you can take them both but you have to sacrifice selecting strategems from two other categories (reducing your overall total).
The reactions from Horus Heresy would be a nice addition to, I think. Why does overwatch need to be a strategem?
@@nraketh 100% fully agree.
I play Death Guard. No points to have a Strat for exploding 6s into MW in another sections.
A very sensible and balanced argument there. If you look at the appeal of One Page Rules it seems to me that you need to have two rule systems for 40K: a simple set of basic rules with limited re rolls
and buffing (or even non at all!); and a “tournament” set for competitive players. I’m not a competitive player as it would spoil the hobby for me. I only buy the minis I like the look of and don’t get concerned at all about their stats. I loved Age of Sigmar when it first came out: no points system you just counted the wounds to build your army. No it wasn’t very fair to some factions but it was fun at least for me!
You have noble goals and I understand your perspective. I think the main issues that come from your points is that External Balance has always been as issue in 40k and the other issue is that some folks do not get the privilege of playing with like-minds.
To address the first point. External Balance has always been a major issue in 40k and it's why so many people are so keen to make sure 40k is balanced as those people have probably been through a few editions like you and I and they know what fighting OP codex's was like.
5th edition: To me had the best core rules. What hurt its edition was external balance. If you were playing most Imperial armies (Grey Knights, Space Marines, IG, BA, Long Fang/Thunderwolf SW) you would be fine, if you played the few Xenos armies to get a book that edition (Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks) you were relatively fine. If you were playing 4th edition Codex's like CSM, Tau or Craftworld Eldar you would be pigeon-hold into one or two lists top try and keep up with 'em. It was fun for a select few.
6th Edition: expanded USR's of 5th, included allies, dropped fixed charge distances, and brought in random rolls with free Overwatch. It hammered assault armies and most games were made as a WWI simulator with Aegis Defence lines and entire armies hiding behind them. Then allies brought us the issue of T'au-Dar. An edition that gave Tau the best edition they could have ever hoped for in gunlines, now backed up by the psychic might of Farseers and Warlocks on Jetbikes...
7th edition: The climax of the unregulated power creep of an old system. Again, the core rules were decent based on 5th edition designs but bloated beyond measure as it tried to become every sub-genre of Wargame on a singular table. You wanted giant Mech/Bugs/Tanks/etc? You want Battletech in your 40k? Knights and Lords of War had you covered! You wanted battalions similar to Historicals like in Flames of War? Formations it was! You wanted Skirmish elements in your games? herohammer and challenges were your friend! It bloated the edition beyond measure, then you had to compound to the fact that external balance still existed. Tau and, most notably Eldar, got new Codex's that they didn't need while Orks and CSM were stuck with 6th ed. Codex's until the very end. Eldar also destroyed this edition single handily. There were recorded instances in GT's such as the LVO where players would travel from the other side of the country or even abroad with a Craftworld list just to fight.... the exact same list, perfect mirror match, the only variation was paintjob.
8th Edition: The reboot. something that was needed but ultimately became about snowballing Strats, CP, Volume of firepower and volume of models to clean house Turn 1 to eliminate agency from your opponent who could not fight back. A lot of the issues you presented have been said here so I will not go further. I stopped trying to keep up at this point since meta kept getting turned every 3-6 months.
This then leads us to 9E: The game deffo has been decent as a competitive game. Balanced? Only if you are playing competitively on a weekly basis with competitive lists like no other edition before. You wanna play mono Night Lords and expect an engaging time? Where are the folks playing other Tyranid faction outside Leviathan? Who is playing Argent Shroud Sisters? Black Templars where? Orks? What are they? The issues presented with 9E evolve from 8E which I will expand further down:
There has deffo been a shifting point between 8-9E towards wanting a more balanced game which so many have been asking for for editions. The problem with how GW executed this demand is that they went to GT players and those with a loud Social Media presence to playtest, and there is a large overlap between the two. Now, in theory, this should be perfect. Established players making sure the needs of all are addressed to make a fun and engaging but fair game, right? I know I certainly thought that at the start. Well, there was a crux to this issue that no one foresaw. GT players are not the Messiah we as a community have made them to be. What we failed to realise was that GT players have a very, very different mindset and mentality to the community of people who like of like-minds like you and I have. They do not see rule of cool like we do in a competitive field. They do not see two forces engaging across the battlefields in a simulation across the 41st Millennium. What they see is a puzzle to be solved. They do not see armies and sub factions to play. They see what they can do to crack the code, solve the puzzle, and move onto the next one. They accepted the format and looked to see how to reduce probability as close to 0% as they could. They aren't as attached, per say, as we are to our armies As long as they can do that and the missions that they are provided can do this every turn of the match then the game is balanced to their tastes and this lasts to the detriment of the rest of the community.
Now some may ask why? Why or how could this be such a problem? It's because these folks have equally played for as long as we have. They have gotten into this routine for editions, with unregulated power creep to allow them to active these goals with easy effect... And we (or GW did, depends of your point of view) asked these players to essentially fix this game.
Now what did that give us? Well Nachmund taught us what they wanted out of a "Balanced" game. A game where you can wombo-combo a bunch of strats together ( like it was Street-Fighter or Tekken) so you take out such a high % of the enemy army during the early turns of the game, so you could then sit of VP's with little to no resistance till the end of the game. This is 9E and why I keep saying to people its balance is no different to any previous editions. It's balanced if you play certain units/armies/sub factions, but if you're not playing those then let's hope you gotta healthy group of friends to play. 9E is the result to that.
As you have rightly pointed out the game maybe in a fine place if you’re playing on a weekly to daily basis and only play certain lists + secondaries but people tend to hate rebuttal when you point out that not every faction is a flexible or feels like it should in a game. The game feels... Sterile in a sense. In our journey to seek out the best symmetrical balance, we lost the soul of 40k along the way. The games community now resembles a lot of the likeness' to WM/H MKII, to which only few remember with rose-tinted lenses. It worrying to feel that is the course of direction for the game and its community to me.
Now on the second point this is a bit more personal but i know there will be folks reading this who probably have had a similar experience, which is why it leads to people asking what's good or not consistently as you have pointed out.
Not everyone has a group of friends they can chill in a basement/spare room and drink cans of coke/beer/whatever of similar like-minds. For most you need to play at your LGS/FLGS and with that comes many opportunities and experiences to have, however fighting someone you don't know quite well is very different to playing with a friend who you do know. This then leads to players asking what's good rather than choosing what looks coolest to them. They want to enjoy a game but, especially with the media focus on hyper-competitive play, folks feel as though they need to keep up with that because that's the most "balanced" way to play. People choose this route to take because no one likes to feel that the investment they've spent financially, time investment in building/painting/playing as been wasted because they brought the "wrong" list/units to the table as they see themselves get wiped turn 1-2. This is an attitude that has always been present in 40k since as early as I can remember when I started and a young lad in 2007.
I still remember my first FLGS and trying to play with folks was a very... frustrating. It was mostly because I was a rule of cool player with CSM. I would pick units like Thousand Sons, defilers, Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc but the lists I was facing were very finely tuned lists you would expect from competitive play, like Long Fang Spam. Grey Knights of Draigowing or Castellanwing, etc. I didn't have local friends to play with as they weren't interested and the FLGS was the only place I could go to play.
The experiences left me very.. bitter. I used to crusade the old Forums of Dakka Dakka trying to gain an understanding of how GW can make a game with very lopsided results, after all when you invest in an product the assumption and trust you place into the product to the game should be that they know what they're doing, right? From there I eventually accepted that I could not play the way I wanted too because asking players for a more laid back game were few and far between so I had to ramp up my games. I had time but not the money so I would wait months to create and recreate lists over and over to try and keep up with the meta, because that was the main existence of the game for me only for the meta to change when I eventually caught up. My efforts persisted up until 8E. By this time I had the money but not as much time as I got older and I eventually walked away from the gaming side altogether I would paint and try to make a "comeback" with a raptor force for my Night Lords but to little to no avail.
I'm in a better place now. It's taken me six years but I now have friends who are of like-minds and now I'm enjoying the game a lot more, but I know I was lucky and it took grit to stay with the game as long as I had. I know there are folks out there who still do not have that privilege and my opinion is that it why we all craved for balance for so long in this game. Not everyone has the privilege of playing against like-minds or people who want that discussion of what type of game they want beforehand.
Now the solution you present should be relatively simple approach to the game on how "We" can save it. The issue is that what the solution asks of us is to self-police our communities of our local stores, and that can lead to a lot of issues in practice as I've understood from experience. It's fragile and all it takes is one person who wants to be permanently competitive and the whole structure falls apart. It's an issue that has and still continues to persist even in todays game. I can only wonder what 10E will bring to try and alleviate the issues 9E presents.
I've played since 3rd and have always loved the game. But I agree that cp and strats have bloated the game to much
one page rules. Grimdark Future. will never play 40k again.
how to fix it: play grimdark future.
Thank you , Broadsword .
30k is a answer , 🙂
🐺
I remember a bit of "ignorance was bliss" back in my first days of 5th. Just buying models, being more interested in what looked cool, and just making scrappy modeling decisions based on limited budget and having no space. I knew someone that painted using craft paints their friend got them from the factory when they purged the filling machines between colors so they were all slightly off. Early forums and you were more focused on the going ons locally than being able to figure out what an optimal list was.
The problem is, if they want a "living rules" set with constant rules churn then the rules need to be FREE and not PRINTED (due to print lag). It's just a based fact on print lag. Even discounting every other feature (such as bad play-testing, money grabs, shifting to sell models, or whatever) the roughly 6-month to store shelves print lag is incompatible with a "living" rules set that is updated often. 40K is also a "slow game". What that means is that buying, building, painting the models, familiarizing yourself with the rules, buying the codexes, the cards, etc Building your army is also not in alignment with the desired "model sales rate" nor with the "rules churn" rate. Which creates a stress in the community. Physical models take time to buy (cost), paint (time), and play (time, long periods of time). Forcing things with FOMO and other modern speed-sales-dynamics has been HARD on the community. Even discounting the raw monetary costs, it causes exhaustion, stress, confusion, anger. SLOW DOWN. If GW won't then the players need to force it by refusing to play the latest rules and latest versions of the rules as protest. Let them know we are done with their treadmill and are now operating on OUR OWN plans. The more players that do this the more GW will get the message they are not the ones at the helm. The players always have been.
That's so true. The constant FAQ thing isn't working. I understand why they're doing it and it's good, in theory, but spending 40 quid on a book, only for it to be mostly invalid isn't working.
I think I'd pay like 20 a month to have access to ALL of the codexes, with updated rules, FAQs etc (and the app if it was better).
@@BroadswordWargaming Or go with maybe basic rules and codexes are free with War-zones and "battle modes" are treated as "expansion packs" which are purchased upgrades to your account. I am not a large fan of subscription content, if only because of it's predatory nature in this kind of setting (losing access to your game if you stop paying). In general there is kind of a basic metric of "break even" for "experiencing" your army in any given edition and its a surprisingly LARGE number of games, something like 60-100 games. No one gets nearly that much before the next update/change/expansion as it is, but in the older days of slower editions it was pretty common to work in that number before the next edition so you really "felt" that you "got your moneys worth and knew your army". It's all just so frenetic and thrashing about these days. I am a dinosaur by today's standard I still enjoy playing 7th with only a tiny amount of 8th and 9th. Heck, I still will sit down and enjoy a game of 3rd if both parties are of the mood for it.. or 5th. Before 4th came out I must have had at least 200 games of 3rd. I wasn't "that" active and had many tournaments. I wasn't really trying hard. It just was that long of a period of time. These days if a new player wanted to get in cheap. I'd say play an older edition where you can get everything 2nd hand if you happen to live somewhere where an older edition is still alive and kicking, which is the case more often than people often admit to openly. This used to be a game for young people and I'd like to see young people get back into it again.
Great, Great observations, commentary, and insight. I'm an older player returning to the hobby, and I know I will never play competitively. I love the idea of narrative play, and think your advice is great.
First rule of gaming: Have fun.
Second rule of gaming: Your hobby, your way.
Third rule: Games Workshop is not "the Hobby" and "the Hobby" is not Games Workshop. YOU are the hobby.
So yes, if people don't like your kitbashed Matilda tank in your guard or ork army, if they don't like your trash terrain, if they don't like they way you play, find people that do.
It's your money. It's your plastic spaceman army. Take control of your own hobby time.
Great over view of the issues but that last bit misses the point of a wargame even the first miniature wargame Little wars was competitive, chess is completive, The hyper crunch games real genrals and royalty played centuries ago with a GM was competitive. Albeit it was GMed for a reason and there was homebrew to make it more realistic. So why shouldn't 40K a wargame be? Which I think all the problems discussed in the video stem from the fact GW think they alone invented the miniature wargame hobby and have copywritten it... When they didn't... H. G. Wells did.
Edit: Pretty much what II mean is GW a model company(Why the made Warhammer fantasy/40K in the first place was to sell models.) thinks they have the only thing in a market and that's not a good thing. Also I get the narrative and casual play like I love Mini War Gaming/Little Wars TV narrative campaigns and with friends you can play how ever you want I just think their should be a solid base first then you can homebrew it as those rule books are so expensive why wouldn't you want to use them as is?
I played with epic 40k when I was in the navy. I started playing warhamer 40k in 9th edition Sept 2021. I started playing space wolves because my squats where no longer. I enjoy competing in rtt and local gt. Now that squats are now LoV I am excited! Yes too many rules, but when you take stuff away ppl also complain. Price is an issue but in the end they are a business. Just like you you tube channel.
There's probably never going to be a version of 40K that universally loved by everyone. It's gotten to the point where there are so many factions it's impossible to balance and the best they can do is buff/nerf factions in seasons so that each faction has it's time in the spotlight. I was really happy with 9th when it was launched, but the bloat and introduction of seasons means its really hard for the majority of players to keep up with rules and means, unless you have multiple armies, you're going to go months with playing army that is not competitive.
GW developers and playtesters aren't serious tournament gamers and it shows but the vocal portion of the fanbase are. I don't think that portion is nearly a majority but they dominate the online community. I think that the GW team is focused on making a fun game, a game that they want to play to have fun. "Flavor" and "cool" supersede power balance. That usually doesn't make for a super tight, competitive rule set. Trying to then take that type game and appease the super vocal, competitive minority has lead to the layers of overlapping core, codex, supplement and FAQ/errata rules that have made the current game really unapproachable for the new player and have done a lot to dissuade me from actively seeking to get back into playing. I haven't played 40k since 5th, possibly 4th, ed. Overly complex games are inherently harder to balance. Adding more rules rather than stripping them away in the name of "balance" makes things worse not better.
Hi Olly.
Couldn't agree more. I'm sad to say that i haven't played warhammer 40k since 2018. Horus heresy for me is the more appealing option now.
Good video Ollie. On most points I agree and players should be Hobbying their way. I think the shift from basement/home gaming to competetive is one of the bigger change factors but also, if you notice, GW stores specifically aren't about gaming so much anymore. From several guys on the inside, playing in store is almost discouraged. Are you running into that at all?
Games Workshop makes great miniatures and hires excellent artists. However, their rulesets have always been behind the times (for example alternating activations). The rules are made to sell miniatures. Therefore it is dependent on constantly having to buy new units instead of actual gameplay. That is not fun at all and why I no longer play any games from Games Workshop. The easiest solution is to use a different ruleset like Grimdark Future from One Page Rules.
Yup, this game is massively bloated at the mo, played 2nd Ed and came back in 6th and was very happy with both. I’m gonna be playing crusade and modifying rules until they sort this out .
I agree, I like WH 40k and want to get my eldar army started, but for some reason, the game seems to indicate that one has to follow all the content, there is this air around the idea of WH 40k related to being "up to date" with what GW releases. How many people play other editions of WH? it seems to me that not a lot of people think about the narrative side of the game or home brewing rules to make it more entertaining. I think the game lends itself more on the stories you can create but since it is the most mainstream game around, the competitive aspect takes over the thought of play.
Very well said, thank you! Sadly my wife and I haven’t had much chance to play 40k in quite some time, but when we do play games we do our best to play with this same spirit in mind. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!
loosing is fine when you have atleast a fair chance at winning
but getting practically tabled in turn one sucks.
I have lost most of the games of 40k that i have played which did make the victories more sweet
At the end of the day it's a game and if you play casually you can amend the rules with your opponent so it enjoyable for everyone.
At the end of the day I believe it about epacsim and having fun and meeting people with a shared interest .
Hope folks are having a lovely weekend :).
Totally agree! And it's genuinely nice to see a kind sign off in a comment :) Have a good weekend too!
@@BroadswordWargaming no worries thank for your reply!😊.
Love your channel btw your content is awesome and enjoyable to watch.
I started collecting AdMech in 8th edition because I liked their aesthetic. I took a break so I missed out when they were strong in early 9th. I rarely win any games at my local game store. These days I’m mostly in the hobby for painting and collecting. The game isn’t that fun outside of crusade games between my personal friend group in my opinion. My group does ‘home brew’ rules and stuff to fit narratives but I just assumed it’s because we came from playing dnd where homebrew is the name of the game.
You put into words what I’ve been feeling all this time. Well done.
Been playing since 2nd edition, really enjoying 9th edition but I don’t do much matched play. Mostly do open or narrative play. Really love the crusade rules they are fantastic and have really made 9th edition shine for me. Best played with some mates you meet up with regularly it just adds a nice D&D/campaign element to playing the game. Perfect, for my group at least. I also love power levels, really can’t be bothered with all that points nonsense these days. Power levels makes it so easy to quickly make a game that’s balanced enough for everyone to have a fun time.
It’s interesting you say you see less Crusade in store and online, I’d be interested to know if that’s because it is played less than the other ways to play or if it’s just that it lends itself/appeals more to the kind of gamers who play at home in a more relaxed way. I think it’s a shame the internet shines a light on matched play so much and less on open and narrative, as a lot of people’s complaints about 9th really only affect matched play.
If you’re reading this comment and you’ve not tried Crusade or any kind of narrative or open play for 40K go ahead and do it. It’s an absolute blast and I have as much fun losing as I do winning as you’re creating a shared story and narrative with your friends. In my opinion it is easily the best way to play 40K.
Is wh40k dead? I can't speak for everyone, but, I haven't played 40k for over a year. 8th edition is my favourite edition and I started playing at the same time of you. Right now I just want 10th edition to throw out so much complexity and learn from age of sigmar. AOS was always a side project for me while 40K 8th edition was doing it thing. Unfortunately increasing complex strategems and unbalanced Secondary objectives and a headache inducing narrative section in each codex turned me off of the game. At the same time AOS got a new edition which is so simple and fun! Okay aos path of glory is also not my cup of tea, but matched play and open are brilliant. If 40k 10th edition copies aos' match play then I expect that I will fall back in love with 40k. I do like the improvements gw have made to 40k daemons and orks. But, I want to see aos orders and armies with roughly 3 to 4 cps and a few bonus cps and orders from battalions. The best games are simple ones in my opinion. 9th edition 40k is oh... just bleugh. This is just my opinion and other opinions are just as valid. I accept such a radical overhaul could end up annoying fans of 9th Ed. The funny thing is that the compromise is.... 8TH EDITION! :)
I got into 40k at 3rd edition and played until 7th. It was too much and I wasn’t having fun anymore, plus GW’s practices at the time really pushed me away. 8th edition sealed it. I really REALLY disliked 8th and 9th didn’t fix anything for me. Note, I haven’t actually played 8th or 9th and probably won’t ever. I moved on to other games I am passionate about, but I occasionally check in and see what 40k rules are up to.
Actually, It's a bit of a 2 edged sword.... GW obiously wants people to play in tournaments and enjoy themselves, but they also want to sell products and thus make old models better to sell them or to make the new one "OP" to again sell them... GW also likes to break their own rules to make stuff better. How many weapons ignore INVUNRABLE saves nowdays?
Maybe to balance out a game to be in annyway competitive we would need an independent organisation wich makes rules and adjusts them acordingly with live rulebooks - it won't be a 100% perfect but may make for a real chalenging tournament experience. IMHO the game should also use 8 or 10 sided dice, this breaks the need for things like Armour of contempt and weapons that ignore invun saves...
I remember, when a w40k army was 30 marines, 2 characters , 2 support Heroes small units and 0-3 vehicles. And this was not some single build, l stretch to get 2000pts . No sir, if you took 3 vehicles, then you ain't taking 30 infantry. If you took 30 infantry you will not fit 2-3 vehicles. Etc.
I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition. The endless rules bloat, supplements, formations, FAQs, strategems, points drops/rises...all made for a game that was no longer enjoyable.
Fortunately, I've been able to breathe new life into my massive 40K model collection by using them in alternative games (e.g., Grimdark Future, Starbreach, etc.).
I agree that the CP/Stratagem rules take the fun out of the games. Gotcha moments lead to frustration (Kinda like disgusting resilience.)
I prefer the mission rules from 2nd Edition. Each player draws a random mission. I think a re-draw would be appropriate if the mission drawn is impossible (like slay the witch vs Necrons.) One feature I like is that the opponents may have completely different objectives.
I do not like the shifting missions/secondaries as these add complexity that doesn't add much fun. The games simulate at most a few minutes in a larger battle. One primary goal and one secondary goal are plenty.
I would like to see a simplified casual play version. Battle for Vedros was interesting from this perspective. I am very interested in One Page Rules.
I would like to see core models that cost less and are easy to build to encourage entry into the hobby or new armies. I would like to see colored plastic by faction so people who don't want to paint can still play and easily tell which models are theirs. An example of these core units would be Tactical / Intercessor Squad and Captain for Space Marines (Blue plastic) or Boyz and Warboss for Orks (Green Plastic). I like the Combat Patrol Boxes but I feel the price tag is too high for a beginner. Smaller/less expensive faction starter boxes would allow more kids to start.
The Core rules should be free. Points values and new missions for competitive play should be a quarterly download/publication. The models should come with their datasheets (and power level for casual play). The datasheets should include any special rules that unit has. The codices should be lore, heraldry and paint guides. They should be compiled into larger faction tomes. These codices should be completely optional.
I have been playing 40K since the transition from Rogue Trader to 2nd. I have yet to play 9th. I will probably try 10th. I may switch to One Page Rules. The current state of the rules and the rate at which GW pumps out additions and changes is pushing me to switch.
I am a 29 year veteran of 40K and I have grown tired of the constant churn of product. I have noticed the shady "mistakes" that pop up on Warhammer Community that are then edited without comment. When all the errors mislead in the same manner, I am skeptical of GW's motives.
I love the hobby. GW is not the only source for wargaming hobby. I love the GW minis and lore. GW's business practices have soured my opinion of the company. If you got this far, thank you for reading my rambling thoughts.
I started in 8th so I have a very recent view of things. But even I have gotten tired of the bloat and constant change and the obvious favoritism and just how swingy things are. Whatever army got a codex recently, there's a great chance they're going to overpower most everything else with new mechanics and stuff. Strength of weapons has been creeping up and up while Toughness seemed hard-capped at 8, meaning that after a while even the tankiest of things just felt made of tissue paper. AP was getting out of control, and rules to ignore other rules that ignore rules. It just became a mess and don't even get me started on how utterly rediculous the primaris look and got, and the subsequent neglect of the real Marines. I almost entirely dropped out of playing Warhammer 40k, at least on the Marines side. I might still field my Orkz or my Sisters once they don't feel completely outmatched, but I still feel like every 2 weeks I need to completely rebuild my list because of a random rule/point change.
And I do mean completely. When Sisters got their Codex initially, I had 3 battle sister squads with 2 Storm Bolters in each. Perfectly legal then, but after a month or so something changed and now I had to convert those normal Battle Sisters to Celestians in order to not have to re-do ALL my models, which COMPLETELY borked my points and force org. It was a nightmare of a mess and it makes me not want to return to it.
I didn't drip Warhammer completely though! With Horus Heresy 2.0, I have refocused almost ENTIRELY there. It's been out for months and the only list tweaks I've done to my THREE armies has been because I noticed something just wasn't working for me, so I shifted to something else. Shifts prompted entirely by myself and not the rules updating randomly. It's felt very balanced and simple, while retaining a lot of complexity. Now I do wish that their stat sheets looked more like 8th+edition sheets with all the info on the same sheet, but once you start learning all the rules it starts to become pretty intuitive, and you don't need to keep track of a billion stratagems that can completely alter each turn. I do feel it could use a little tweak as I've noticed that most games you can figure out if you will win or lose based off a single turn which doesn't feel very good, but I think it's infinitely more balanced and enjoyable than modern 40k, so anytime I feel like running Marines I go to that system instead, which is a bit sad because some 40k exclusive models (like Thunderwolf Cavalry) are rad as hell.
Harrumph Harrumph Harrumph. I totally agree with you 110% Have fun. It's a game, all be it a potentially expensive game, depending on your wallet and your table size. I'm definitely in the have fun category, whether that's in the building painting or playing of the game. 🙌🏻🎉❤️
I haven't played 'official' 40K in so long. Too many special rules to manage. Too many stats to juggle. Too many books to carry and update.
I've looked into One Page Rules Grimdark Future and their Firefight games and I like what I see.
I bought my first Space Marines in the late 80s. Where is the technology that I dreamed of back then? Like, fifteen years ago I bought my son 2 radio-controlled tanks that could shoot at each other with sound effects, and register when they were hit, but GW's technology has stood still. Now laser pointers are common, so why aren't they in GW laser-cannon models? Some say the miniatures are collectibles, but if so, where are the advanced features like you get for model aircraft, like photo-etched parts? And why is there so much dice rolling?! To hit, to wound, re-rolling, saves, command-point re-roll. It's so slow! With dice rolling apps on phones, I and my opponent could do all the rolling in two shakes. What with the complicated game and high cost, it must be off-putting to potential new gamers. I wish GW and Oliver well, but GW needs to move with the technology, so more new players visit Oliver's shop.
I walked into my FLGS yesterday and there was a 40k Tournament going on, I had zero interest in it. I do love the models and there was a time where I was in a tournament at least once a month. There is so much stuff like you said that you have to keep up with it just bored me out of the game. I like the WHO cares thing with the rules. Once a while back I wanted to play my Blood Angels with ADMech and people literally looked at me like I was nuts, first thing out of their mouth...YOU wont have any CPs... My reply.. "so?". I guess I've never been much of a competitive player, I just want to have a beer and throw some dice and unfortunately the way 40k is now I just can't. The turn structure is OLD it needs to go no one wants to sit the for 45 min while your stuff gets blown off the table.. I think they need to move beyond the d6 as well. I kind of miss the whole Wargear card thing. Everyone got them all so you knew what was coming.
Completely remove rerolls. Rerolls are just an excuse for lazy rules writing where the designer has given up with their own rules. The more rerolls a system have the worse the system is.
Universal special rules need to return, a simple but highly effective concept scrapped for renaming the rule to suit the datasheet with no consistency even between units in the same codex.
I am not a fan of stratagems, they were never needed as they were the source of gotcha moments. If you despirately need to enforce them, then change them to single effect with single or no restrictions, and only allow one strat to be used per dice roll. CP currency has no purpose other than making the game more complicated than needed, make all strats free to use but as stated earlier only one can be used at a time. Then you can make strats actually interesting.
Make character actually effective characters and not basically unit sergeants, as sergeants are redundant now. Allow customisation through wargear and upgrades with granular points, designing your own character and playing with it was one of the highlights of 40k, now that it doesnt exist you basically have unit upgrade by attaching a character.
I play Imperial guard in 40K. Got invested at the tail end of 8th. 9th absolutely made the game a pain to play between codex creep and everything else. Couldn’t win a game even with good strategy.
Switched over to Horus heresy 1.0 where I play solar Auxilia. It’s pretty balanced and it’s far easier to understand. No strategems or ridiculously confusing victory conditions.
110% agreed. As somebody who also plays Table Top RPGs. Homeruling/houseruling etc with your own community and friends is key to having fun with gaming table top anything.
So here's my take and someone who's been around this hobby and geek culture for a fair few years. There are two extremes of table top gaming, narrative and competitive, most people are probably not at either extreme but the further you get away from the middle group the less compatible those players are (e.g. a fairly extreme narrative player probably won't have fun against a more extreme competitive player). We all have to acknowledge that this is fine and furthermore it's fine that GW are making games for both sets of players. 40k Skewes towards completive play and 30k towards narrative in my experience. That's the good news, if you find yourself favouring one style over the other then there's a game and the be fair (in the UK at least) a tournament scene for you. It's also why LFGS are so important, it's a fun space where you can learn which type of game is for you and find other like minded people as well as a place you can set up the type of tournaments you want to play. As an aside tabletop gaming could learn something from comic books here too, every edition from RT through to 9th are still out there with a lot of the models being compatible. So just as it's fun to go back and read Batman's Knightfall (for example) you can do the same with wargaming. Don't like 8/9th edition but prefer the 40k setting ? Then hit ebay and grab some old rulebook and/or codex books.
Man, last year I hook my friend with Kill Team (first Kill Twam) with Intercessors fighting me Death Guards. Its just complete mission, where his guys need to 3 block sewage entrance to stop Poxwalker from comming. Im only starts with 3 Plagues Marines and D3 on each entrance. Its a lot of fun!
I've played 40k since 3rd Edition but I haven't played very much of 9th Edition. I'm just not a fan of CPs, Stratagems and the overall rules bloat. I would like to see the game go back to a set number of "generic" special rules in the main rule book which are then doled out to the various armies and units within those armies to give them their character. That way, when my opponent says "this unit has special rule A", I know what that rule is and what it does. I don't have to be familiar with my opponent's Codex. Also, the game really needs to limit re-rolls and modifiers which reduce armor saves. Personally, I think -3 should be the most a save can be modified and that should be very rare.
Why does it matter? Because an avarge salary is 450-550$, Warhammer becomes serious. It has been like that in the 90s too, when the avarge salary was 120-130$ . That is why recasting was huge here since day one, people weren't interested in painting unless they were doing comissions for western players.
We have been playing “Warhammer” for years under our own simple rules - and had fun. No Codexes, no updates, no “retired” armies. Just a bunch of guys enjoying themselves. We found that Warhammer was much like a Windows operating system - so completely bogged down with “bloatware” that it ceased to be fun playing by their “rules”. Still buying the models (putting them together is half the fun) but not the grossly overpriced and far too complicated volumes that get released all the time and supersede the ones you may have only recently bought.
I'd love to play 40k but everybody wants matched hardcore games with every little faq, strategy and secondary, is frustrating and not fun at all. So I just stick to Warcry and sometimes KT.
It sadly is like having to know every faction really well, when facing 20+ factions and so many chapters and houses or dynasties, we can't follow all the minutia to play at a moderate or even high level. The game has gone beyond just gun line and terrain tactical, to just bloated trap carding, uno reverso, gotcha gaming. This why Necromunda and Kill team is so appealing to many of us, small, simple, terrain based, tactical. Perhaps small simple 500 pt gunline/cqc rush now and then.
Balance has always been BS, and has destroyed so many games. Play whats fun, things are cyclical, ad quite worry about "winning". Enjoy the high spots in each game, cool events by all players. Laugh when astoundingly bad rolls happen. Its just an excuse to hang out with friends at its core, remember that.
I wouldn’t say it is broken. Yes, 40K is complex but I love those moments, when my opponent comes with a surprising twist. I’d rather say that you have a big point with the narrative aspects of the game. I love playing RPGs like DnD and Pathfinder and there is always this guy who wants to max the characters out on a meta side, rather than really acting out who his character is. Somehow 40k became just the opposite. Most players I experience are rather focusing on the meta game rather than creating awesome stories.
Something that really shifted me to playing Warcry and Necromunda vs. AoS and 40k is the big picture non-competitive nature of the games and the built in structures to keep finding fun despite what happens in a turn. It's not to say that you don't want to win, but the culture around both games is about playing more vs. winning. Necromunda has all sorts of tools between tactics cards, allies for weaker gangs, and an actual arbitrator that support weaker gangs and keep them in the fight. Warcry...takes less than an hour to play, and if you hate your warband you can put a new one together for a feasible amount of money with 5 to 15 models.
I like all of the thoughts and suggestions you talk through on keeping the focus on a good time. As a non-40k-er at this point, I think the crusade format seems really cool, buuuut I too see how many folks have shifted back to competitive play!
40k is way too complex tbh. I don't mind when something is complex if it stays the same for some time.
We mainly play narrative games at home and come up with our own twists on the rules to keep it fun.
For some reason my 40k friend group is all about using the best lists and keeping up with every rules change. I think we hardly play any games because of it. I'm a relatively new player and started playing in the tail end of 2018 but I can count the number of games we played by heart.
What I understand from the more seasoned players is that they used to play at least once every month. Sure we are a bit older and people have other things going on (family, kids, wife), but we all play other games frequently, so it's not a time issue..
I feel the situation is created by the players themselves. I noticed that most 40k players take this game pretty seriously. The lore, colour schemes, painting...ow my god the painting. There are two guys in our group who started painting their armies three years ago and they still haven't played a game using them. For reference I painted three 3000 point armies in that time. Yes I don't take the painting as serious as they do, but come on put your back into it.
I think this seriousness is what is gripping most players detriment to enjoy the game. They don't want to be "that" guy who turns up to a game with (some) unfinished model, or the one who isn't up to the latest of their opponents rules so they rather delay playing which translates into not playing at all for some.
40k is just another game for me..I'm not "that" invested into the lore, the hobby part or the "my army used to be great and now it sucks" reasoning. 4 years into the hobby and I still feel like an outsider looking in sometimes. 40k players are a rare breed my friend.
I just play the game as it is. After playing since 5ed I have come to the conclusion that there will always be issues, and you will never make everyone happy.
I just play a faction that makes me happy and find the best way to play them. Will I win every game? No. I shouldn't win every game. How will I ever get a game in if I always win?
I'm happy that GW is taking more interest in their game and it's balance. I look forward to seeing what they do in the future.
Personally the index books that dropped at the beginning of 8th was the last time I was truly excited about the game.
Everything was trimmed down and easier to play, and the lists had the scope to be expanded in a number of ways
Then GW introduced stratagems, which imho has ruined the game
They're not inherently bad, but the fact that they're something that's used during the game is a mistake
The command point/stratagem system has the potential to be great as a list building tool
I.e.
force orgs give you a certain number of command points, which can be spent on command traits, relics, and static buffs/abilities to certain units denoted at the start of the battle, etc
🤷🏼♂️
Coming back to the hobby recently, it does seem like GW are clinging onto print based hardware for codexes too much or rather i should say they are messing around with the rules too much, if they want to keep the books relevant. Wahipeadia and battle scribe is so much better a resource and free lol. It's one thing having rules bloat, but it is further compounded by the rate in which they keep changing them, which to me just takes me think they arn't play testing stuff enough before printing them. Games have to flow, and have some sense of realism (lol i know it's 40k) so all these extra stratagems and rerolls is getting alittle too silly especially when you need about 3-4 books and FAQs to reference (and know in side out) just to have a game.
Thinking around this perhaps the game should be turn based but by unit rather than the whole army, like the new kill team, then all this rules and strats bloat will allow for some flow between armies and move away for crazy first turn meta dominating the game
I'd love to get back into 40k, I only ever really played necromunda when it came out in the late 90s, simply because the rules were just easier to follow, I'd try 40k but the rules just seem a bit mental when I watch UA-cam play videos, it's the main thing that puts me off
I agree with everything you said. There is definitely room for a more casual friendly version of the ruleset without all the stratagems and special case rules. I would say the "need" for all those special case rules indicates a failure of the core rules mechanic to recreate the experience they want to present. Or if you're cynical it's all just a ploy to sell books and models and churn the customer base.
In either case, by not having a more friendly ruleset or game mode for casual players, Gw are actually leaving money on the table and encouraging players to look elsewhere. Adoption of One Page Rules, Stargrave, Galactic Heroes, and other indy and home rules is growing.
Well, the game can be a rotten bloaty mess and it would be somewhat fine, I mean, 40k has so much stuff that it is impossible to be perfectly balanced. The problem begins when the messy game is managed by a predatory business model that aims short term returns above everything else.
I'm with you on the whole "simplified" narrative gameplay, I honestly think that narrative plah turns away people because there's a lot of bookeeping in between games if you want to play by the rules with Crusade or something like that. Competitive play is a better platform because supposedly it allows players to just enjoy a game and be done with it.
I can't get into 40k because the gaming side of it seems overly complex and imbalanced. I stick with ME:SBG instead which has an excellent ruleset.
I stopped playing 40k, it's mostly necromunda for me because I think it has better, more interesting/immersing rules. I find modern 40k to be too much of a 'most expensive model wins.'
Watchout...you said the "casual" word. be prepared for the neckbeards rallying call of "REEEEEEE"
Pretty much agree with this, I am a casual player that does not play enough, but played this weekend with a friend and there are so many special rules and so many stratagems to learn which when you have not been able to study the codex in detail can leave you floundering and already at a disadvantage. Biggest issue for me is all the books and FAQs. They need to sort out their electronic codex and provide free updates to them and the rule book including all the changes from Campaign books.
'This isn't a bashing video' well your title says different
It's so good to hear this kind of point of view sometimes, the Internet is so overwhelmed with people complaining about any single bit of rule and their army being nerfed and the army next door being buffed and whatnot... Soooooo boring, we're here for the fun for the Empereror's sake!!!!!!
In a nut shell, competitive taking over is ruining 40k, lets get more casual and narrtive. Couldnt agree more, I moved to a country where the small local communituy is 100% competitive and the new guys are just over the top obsessed with it, the worst of competitive being the major way to play the game if not the only its how it feed on fomo, Localy th ecommunity is very accepting of 3d proxies and recasts since the local prices are higher the australia and the economy is shit, so people will show up with unpainted crappy 3d prints from a week to another desparetely trying to fit the met as it moves.
I started playing back in 5th edition, over the years I have had a new army every edition and a few non starts with other factions, my issues with the “game” is that to play I need multiple books, a decent study session before a game then find that there are endless scenarios in game where we stop to consult the “books” to clarify a point of decision, ultimately my gaming circle now have ended up using the current rules as a frame work for our games and agree on what we think is right on the game and at the moment to make it fair. We don’t used CP or strats but do flirt with the various command protocols or mechanisms most army have. What I have learnt on my 4 soon to be 5 editions of plying is that tourneys are for those who are serious players I am not and therefore the rules get bent when I play to keep playing and most importantly of all keep having fun.
In terms of the cost of playing it’s gotten out of hand and frankly that is where I believe we as customers are being let down, we live in a digital age where I should be able to buy a physical codex then be able to download a version that is always updated and I don’t need umpteen FAQs or errattas every couple of weeks. I know the app exists but in my experience it’s not user friendly and aimed mainly at list building rather than having a digital codex. The books should be buy from once not every year.
I love the game and that it brings together all walks of life and is massively inclusive however profit margins are starting to dictate the enjoyment I get as and end user. Anyway that’s my 2p worth. Happy gaming all.
I think GW should just do what they do best, which is design model kits, and that's it. They should simply outsource the gaming side of things to another company like Wizards of the Coast who have more intelligent game designers.
If GW is watching
Go back to 3rd.
Balanced, not swamped with OTT special rules and easy to create thematic armies.
Done.
The problem with Warhammer is that its stopped being a WARgame, and feels more now like a glorified board game, with the way command points and objectives work. Also alot of the brief but fluffy rules writing feels underused compared to reroll bubbles. I also miss blast templates and it actually mattering where you place models in relation to the direction theyre being shot at
Great video, it's important to remind everyone that most of us aren't really competitive players, even though we think we sometimes are :P. I think people in general overreact to the latest meta and balance changes. I saw leagues of votan on the used shelf at my LGS because someone was upset about the prelaunch nerf.. idk they still seem pretty high power still, but this is one example of someone overreacting to what the internet says they "should" be doing. The best way to play this game is to find a couple of like minded individuals and discuss what kind of game you want to play and like you mentioned, find a way to make it fun because at the end of the day this should be an enjoyable past time for everyone involved.
The rules change, the models stay.
I like narrative play, but my friends want to play matched, and the argument is that it is more balanced that way...but I think it will never be balanced.
I still buy models that I like, maybe they are not the best right now, but maybe they will be good later...who cares :)
the two biggest problems with the game are stratagems and secondary objectives. They need to remove/reduce stratagems and replace them with something much simpler so you can just hand your opponent one sheet of paper and be like this is everything I can do with my command points. They also need to remove unique secondary objectives because asymmetrical objectives are impossible to balance properly. The objectives should always be the same for both players.
To hell with GW and 40k; GW has picked our pockets for way too long; Mantic and One Page Rules are a lot more fun, and they don't have their hands in my pockets
Started in RT.
The game has come along in some ways, shit the bed in others.
By fourth edition, the battalion strength games were well underway, and GW lost a lot of talent in the design department, leaning tword the second and third tier designers. It all went downhill from there.
Because they are pushing so much details in the models, they are losing the focus on aligning the games evolution with the models, and the reasonable evolution of the rules sets to include the new vehicles/ models.
Command Points... low so they are used sparingly. Someone along the way forgot that they were making a game for 10+ armies, not just for themselves.
Stratagems... get rid of them. add them to the armies in the same way as the regimentals were with the regimental system. Then you can have an army that is yours, not just another cookie cutter internet theory-hammer clone.
If people buy models only to win, blame them. Don’t blame the game. Blame our own messed up minds for having obsessions about winning and power, instead of knowing how to be happy.
Some people love absolutely just steam rolling the opposition.
I ussualy play kill team and my mates Daemons still don't have a proper team. So we just invented rules for his models and chucked them on the board. He's having more fun playing and im having more fun cause I can talk him into joining me for games
been playing since end of 3rd start of 4th edition. I still dabble but no were near as much as i used to mainly due to lack of interest with 8th and 9th edition and the primarus marines however still enjoying Heresy 2.0.