OMA K3 Turntable - Part 2: (No) Vacuum Hold Down
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- Опубліковано 30 гру 2022
- K3 has been a seven year project to create and redefine state of the art for vinyl playback. We wanted to set a new mark for the turntable, forming an international collaboration with the world's top experts in direct drive turntable design, motor control, and tonearm technology.
CORRECTION
From Richard Krebs the designer of K3 and the Atlas clamp:
'The reflex clamp with a washer under the record has been around for quite some time.
I bought a primitive one in London in the 80s and have been building my own since the 90s. The Atlas Clamp is the accumulation of the knowledge gained from many previous builds, as such it is a very advanced design. The icing on the cake being the sand oil internal gallery.
It is also where I conformed to my ears that rubber has no place touching a record. Previous experience with the coloration of vacuum hold downs raised suspicions. One of my clamp designs had a rubber circumference that touched the record. It had the same coloration.
So no to vac hold downs and no to rubber touching the record.'
This is the second video, more will be coming, including a big one at OK Foundry (big shout out to Jamie and crew in Richmond for all their incredible work!), one covering the power supply, platter hold down system, Schröder tonearm, and more.
You can read up on our K3 turntable at oswaldsmillaudio.com/k3.
Needs to be heard!
Go to part 1 at 1:10 and listen what he said about you dear M.Fremer
Michell in the UK developed the idea of that clamp decades ago, still available today.
yeah but he said this one's different. I wonder how different it is tho
I was trying to remember, because I knew somebody else had done the same washer-plus-concave setup. Is the Michell not a threaded spindle one? As opposed to a collet. Sounds like they've managed to squeeze in some damping fluid on this one.
@@weatheranddarkness I’ve owned one and no it’s not threaded. It works by pushing down and turning the knurled knob which clamps to the turntable spindle.
@@rongreen1538 I was thinking of my old VPI and I thought the other screw down ones with the puck underneath all relied on a threaded spindle in the same way. Interestingly my VPI came with a rubber puck. Like a pretty firm butyl.
@@Dobbs65 A beautiful turntable you have there. I don’t remember exactly when Michell developed their clamp but it was many decades ago. My SME uses a screw down which is another good way of maintaining good contact but the Michell one is so effective.
This turntable is gorgeous. An absolute work of art. And if it takes $600,000+ worth of turntable, plinth, platter, motor, tonearm, cartridge, clamps, amps, phono stages, cable, speakers, and furniture to "properly" play vinyl, then you've passed the point of aspirational fantasy and COMPLETELY sold me on streaming. I'll happily take my $249 AirPods Pro 2 and enjoy the hell out of some compressed digital garbage, aka music. Still. Lovely turntable.
Astonishing. Next level acoustic engineering. Really inspiring that you took a great deal of time, with sustained effort, to create something wonderful.
I wish you a happy and healthy new year🍀 thank you for introducing the impressive turntable. Greetings from Germany
Thank you, Axel, and happy New Year!
Just cooking a new year meal. Immaculate timing as usual. Happy New year Jonathan! Every success to you and yours
Thank you, Blue, Happy New Year to you!
Just gone 10pm here in Austria and I see you posted this gem! Thank you Jonathan, I wish you and your family a happy and peace-filled new year.
Thank you, Ian, a very happy New Year to you!
@@oswaldsmillaudio Thank you Jonathan. As an aside. I love the bullhorn lugs on your watch. I have an almost identical looking vintage American made Elgin from 1953, wonderful watch.
Those old Elgin´s and Hamiltons made in America are so underrated. I have a few including some early electric Hamiltons and a BW Raymond Railroad Elgin wrist watch that I love.
We obviously have many passions in common ;)
Happy new year!!! 🎉🎊🎂🍾🥂🍾🍾🍾🍾
great christmas gift!!!🥁🎺🎸🎹
Hi Jonathan Happy New Year to you. Also to all at OMA and especially the guys at the foundry. I used to work at a foundry and I feel like family to these guys. All OMA audio gear is well thought out and sensible. Enjoying the videos you have put out. Please keep them coming my friend.
Thank you very much, and Happy New Year to you too!
Jonathan darling: SME has been doing this type of clamping for decades.
Hi Miguel, indeed, record clamps are common and have been around for decades. This OMA K3 Atlas clamp is totally different in using a central puck to raise the record above the platter surface so that the convex underside of our clamp actually flexes the record down into a positive engagement with the mat, and that’s not something SME, or any other company have ever done, to our knowledge. Furthermore, the clamp itself has a special damping system internally, explained in the video, which is also unique to the OMA K3.
@@oswaldsmillaudio The method by which there is a central washer and the clamp is concave thereby flexing the record onto the surface has been used by SME for a very long time, possibly other brands as well.
I use this method every day with my SME 20/3. All current SMEs, to my knowledge, use the same exact method.
I should say you make very good points against vacuum hold-down, I found the video very interesting, and appreciate your passion. Your assumption about how and why it became a thing are probably true as well.
Thank you, Miguel. Your comment, and others, made me double check with Richard Krebs, the designer of the table and clamp. I added his words as a correction in the caption of the video.
Thanks, Jonathan.
Apart from the material and it employing a collet, it functions exactly the same as Oracle's clamp, ie, the record is being stressed over a profiled washer. Hi-Fi News & Record Review did a DIY feature on how to make the screw clamp, threaded spindle extension and profiled washer, as the Oracle used, for use on a Linn LP12.
Absolutely stunning ♥ Zabardast!!
I agree with your thoughts as to the problem with the mat / vac platter interface issue, just ask Sota about all the ruined record claims they had to pay back in the day. There was only one vacuum mat ever made that actually works without the sound degradation of the others, the teflon mat made by Versa Dynamics , sadly long gone.
Α central weight and a periphery ring will do the work of a vacuum just as easily in a more economical way. Rubber is not always "bad sounding". There are hundreds of types of rubber with different characteristics of "pliance" and damping. A central weight alone will sometimes worsen the contact of the record to the platter.
This is genius!
`Forcing and flexing` a vinyl record as you say , Will microscopically augment the structure of the `width` of the grooves that the stylus has to travel rendering a different signal at the outcome.
Very very nice. I dont have a very high dollar system, but I use a clamp with a collet also. My platter is solid acrylic. I push down and tighten at the same time. My metric is if you can move or spin the record while clamped then it is not tight enough. I have had great results. I feel that Weight isn't enough and yes vacuum is an expensive pain. I think your designs are top quality and haven't had a disagreement yet.
Your video, would lead some to believe, that OMA has originated this ingenious platter hold down method.
As you may know, SME and VPI have been using the same basic method for a long time.
Don’t know who originated the basic idea, but I think you should have given credit to whoever did.
Hello Michael, indeed, record clamps are common and have been around for a long time. This OMA K3 Atlas clamp is totally different in using a central puck to raise the record above the platter surface so that the convex underside of our clamp actually flexes the record down into a positive engagement with the mat, and that’s not something SME, or any other company have ever done, to our knowledge. Furthermore, the clamp itself has a special damping system internally, explained in the video, which is also unique to the OMA K3.
Hello,
My first “high end” turntable, purchased in the late eighties, was a VPI Jr.
It was supplied with a round rubber spindle washer, and a wide convex clamp that screwed down on the threaded spindle, which is the same mechanical principle that OMA is using.
One other advantage, you may have noticed, is that it removes most minor record warps!
SME’s turntables have long used the same basic clamping system.
If you check the SME 12 manual, at SME’s website, you will see that their clamping system is mechanically the same as yours.
It also adds some tips on how to know when the clamp is the right tightness.
Your system, though, does have the added damping.
This may be an instance of great minds thinking alike.
I do admire your products.
Mike
Thank you, Mike. Your comment, and others, made me double check with Richard Krebs, the designer of the table and clamp. I added his words as a correction in the caption of the video.
Thanks, Jonathan.
Thanks for doing that.
@@oswaldsmillaudio The first use of this type of clamping system that I'm aware of, using a lift washer under the record and a clamp that flexes the record down near the edge of the record label, is the Oracle Delphi from 1979. Many manufacturers now use a similar system including SME, Brinkmann, AMG, and VPI.
It's actually a pretty tricky thing to get right, because most mats (like yours) have a slight recess in the top surface to accommodate the slightly thicker label area of the record. If the outer circumference of the clamp that flexes the record down is too small, it risks pushing the edge of the label area into the recessed part of the mat, and cantilevering the rest of the record off of the step in the mat surface, thereby lifting the playing area of the record off of the mat. The key is to bring the outer rim of the clamp as close to the edge of the label as possible while making sure the cartridge won't hit it in the runout groove, and to not overtighten the clamp to the point where the record starts to lift again.
I use a similar clamp and graphite mat. The boston audio mat and the Basis reflex clamp, they work very well together. I agree the vacuum hold down is a pain...
Beautiful deck. Question: if you use a clamp on the spindle, won’t it transmit the energy/noise from the bearing directly to the platter?
This is a seriously great sounding turntable. Among the best. This video and description is quite misleading and does a disservice to the ingenuity and quality of the table it self. Why negatively sell features of other manufactures when the points are not factually correct? There are so many great qualities to this table and superb engineering to extol. Sell your strengths.
The choice not to have vacuum hold down is fine. Judging by the results it is not a necessary function of the K-3. Well executed vacuum systems are very easy to use by the end user. A simple push of the button and the vacuum is applied or released. The compressors and vacuums are almost noiseless and very low vibration that allow them to be used in the room and only heard with your ear within inches of the box. Their complexity does add considerable costs and in some cases needless complication to a system.
Vacuum systems will NOT scratch the "shit" out of your records unless the platter or mating material used is abrasive, then no matter the system of vacuum, clamping, weight or nothing would damage records. Vacuum systems do not necessitate the use of rubber mats. The vacuum seals at the outer grooves and inner groves provide the seal, not the platter or record surface. TechDAS as an example, uses a metal platter and a very thin antistatic mat, not a rubber mat. The only use is for it's antistatic properties. Interface mats are purely a matter of choice by designers and taste of the end use in many cases.
Vacuum systems apply an equal downward force across the grooves. It mates the record to the chosen mat or platter material better than any clamping system. The simple knuckle rap test shows it quite readily. Clamping systems place the records in both compression and tension as they attempt to flatten the record to the mating surface. The differences in the stresses placed on the record, produced by clamping, can be clearly audible. Clamping systems are are more finicky and produces varying results in attempting to flatten and mate the record to the platter surface. They never achieve a fully bonded record to the platter. Vacuum systems do. Whether or not you prefer the sonic results is user preference.
The style of clamping system in use here has be used by many other manufactures, while the make up of the clamp may well be very unique to OMA. Weights and clamp materials along with execution are very valuable in being able to dissipate, absorb or harmonically enhance the vibrations caused by the stylus tracing the record grooves. Indeed the make up of the OMA clamp may be one it's best engineered and saleable features over other clamping systems.
The graphite platter was innovated and expertly incorporated into the Simon Yorke S-7, S-9 and S-10 record playing systems 25 + yrs ago. He incorporated a weight and not a clamp for the reasons stated above. Again a sonic choice based on Simon's listening preferences.
The use of plugs on the platter is a brilliant idea. I wonder whether anyone else has used it before on a turntable or whether this is the first time. It's used in clocks/watches balance wheels. Essentially they allow balancing the platter and motor in one go (whether this is applicable in this particular realization at all is another matter).
I find the graphite mat rather intriguing. I cannot recall anyone having used that material. I think Delrin is the closest that comes to mind but I'm not entirely sure that a Delrin mat has been marketed before.
I enjoyed this as well as the first part - particularly the anti-belt drive polemic!
Delrin platters are definitely a thing. Not sure how many are currently commercial products though. The radial balance plugs have been done before, I wish I could remember the name of who did it. They were known for making telescope focusers if I remember correctly, and amongst audiophiles mostly for their isolation feet which used either concaves and rods, or sets of stretched rings. I think they were german and run by one guy?
yes, many mfr.s, many times.
I like the clamping mechanism - makes perfect sense. Any plans to sell the clamp/washer as an accessory item to be used with your graphite mat? Perhaps a combo-package mat+clamp since they are built for each other.
That’s exactly what I was going to ask!:)
The Michell Engineering Record Clamp works on exactly the same principle and has been available for several years.
@@patrickdixon4945 as is the original SOTA Reflex Clamp 35 years ago! Ok I am now seeing the correction up above.
Still, the ol' vacuum SOTA Star (or Cosmos) did not have a generic rubber mat atop their platters. It was an advanced material that if my memory doesn't fail me was called "SuperMat". So it is inaccurate to say all of these vintage vacuum hold-down turntable designs used generic rubber mats. Not so.
When is the c.d player coming out?
Is the graphite mat for the SP10 something you normally stock, or is it made to order?
We have graphite mats in stock: oswaldsmillaudio.com/mat
Oversize platter is the way to go and I could count with one hand the number of turntables that have them.
Franc Kuzma did this 30 years ago.
Es audible la diferencia que logra un equipo tan caro? El señor que está detrás de ese proyecto se ha hecho una audiometría que respalde lo que se dice lograr escuchar? Es fantástico el
Proyecto y el modelo es impresionante. Un modelo para pocos. Es posible utilizar un modelo semejante para un logro más democrático? Por ejemplo lograr algo tan poco resonante en plástico barato?
5:19 👍
😂a similar system has been used in Denmark for at least 25 years
Not all vacuum suction turntables were expensive. Luxman had 3 out in the early 80s and the cheapest was the PD300 which was £500. At some point there was rumours of the vacuum system leeching stabilizers from records. How true it was, I've no idea.
SME might have been using the clamping system for ages, but it was Oracle back in 1979 where it was originally used. And you have had some that have said that putting a record under such tension isn't such a great idea.
An interesting video:
ua-cam.com/video/rc2LA9kC-4U/v-deo.html
I used to own various $25-600 clamps but got rid of them all. Mating to the platter doesn’t start at the turntable. It starts at storing your vinyl flat and not on its side. I have “age pressed” many vinyl for over a year and they are flatttt.