I still prefer tarp, despite loving my Durston X-Mid Pro 2. Main reason is the flexibility and freedom. With a tent, you need to find a larger flat space to pitch it. With a tarp, i only need a space flat enough for my back. I also don’t like contorting my body to get in and out of tents. With a tarp, i can pitch it high enough and open enough that i can get up and out, or half-way or very low if it’s strong wind and rain. It’s simplistic to reduce the decision of tarp v tent to just weight (and I’m not accusing you of doing that, but lots of people do). I got a Katabatic Gear bivy if there are bugs or i can use it as bathtub floor if there’s a downpour, but most of the time, i just use the tarp by itself. Each location is a tailor made suit when setting up the tarp, and i can adjust to the landscape (using a fallen tree as a wall/shield), pitching it in areas inaccessible to tents. And if I’m with a group of people and there’s a sudden rain, I’m the hero as everybody can huddle under a simple lean-to set up. You mentioned Tyvek-but that’s a wash, as most people using tents also bring a groundsheet of some sort (esp w/ultralight dyneema tents that are fragile). I think tarps will get less and less popular, but that’s not due to their inferiority, but due to the skills gap most people have (or rather ,the skills they lack) which render a tarp a bad choice. Surely, somebody who can’t effectively use a tarp shouldn’t get one. But if you can effectively use it, it’s superior to the latest and greatest ultralight tents.
HMG has crazy high prices that don't reflect the current reality of DCF products being fairly commonplace. One example is their DCF rolltop food bag for $60, with identical food bags from cottage vendors selling for $40.
I have to agree with you. I love love love my tarps BUT...I just can't justify them anymore since I got the Plex-Solo at 13-14 oz. I value efficiency while backpacking and I can setup my tent quicker than I can setup my tarp and don't have to be quite as selective on the site selection. The cost of tarps and bivies have gotten so expensive with little to no weight savings that it's hard to justify. I think tarp camping is now for those who just simply enjoy tarps and the tarp experience. No longer are they cheaper, lighter, or more efficient. They're just fun and that's the whole point of getting out in the backcountry. Love your content!
Excellent conversation and I tend to agree. I started using tarps to reduce weight & bulk and add simplicity. I love my GG Gatewood Cape at only 11 oz and it also serves as a rain poncho and pack cover. However, with a 5 oz groundsheet of tyvek, I'm at 16 oz. With the DCF tents from the past few years, even at a higher price, a 16 oz complete tent with bug netting and vestibule sounds very appealing. I've been tarping less and using my 10+ year old 1-person SMD Trekker tent. At 27 oz I like the added protection. When it's time to replace it, I'm pretty sure I'm going with the Xmid Pro 1 at 16 oz and quite packable.
That price to weight ratio is near my DCF Mt Laurel Design Duomid XL 7’x 9’ 15 OZ-ish territory. I do have a tarp- tyvek 10’ x 12’ mainly for far camping
Great and informative video as always! Tips, tricks and advice is just what a newb like me appreciates as I get more involved with camping and backpacking 👍 Weird to not see snow 😁
For short trips with good weather, I like to UL bivy camping (borah gear) and the tarp is there for ‘just in case’ situations. That’s pretty much been my tarp experience. I like this because campsite choices are so much greater.
I think a tarp still has a spot in my kit. I like not having to worry about my gear getting wet when I’m putting up the fly. You have some good points though. That and it’s easier to set up a tent on the tent pads. I still think maybe a tarp will be emergency use but I don’t know. It’s a struggle what shelter to bring anymore
Im not a long distance hiker but I've heard people like Jupiter describe the benefit in those situations where you can send the bivy home and not carry it if you know the next leg of your journey isnt gonna be buggy/hot. In that way, the modularity can save a lot of weight carried. I dunno though, when you can scrap the bivy, a zpacks 150 gram 7 x 9 tarp + 180 MLD Bug bivy is pretty sweet, and it takes up a lot less room. I like the question you pose though, things are definitely more equal that they used to be (especially since before trekking pole tents in Ray's time). Nothing beats the simplicity of a tarp though.
No disagreement with the points you've laid out. For me, I'll stick with a square tarp in either silpoly (preferred) or silnylon. My primary reason is versatility. I'm mostly a hammock guy, so I use a diamond setup for rain protection. With that same tarp (8.5x8.5 or 10x10), I can set up a plow-point for milder conditions or one of two different types of trekking pole tarp tents that will protect me in some pretty crummy weather. I use these tarps year round in all kinds of conditions. My favorite tarp is a 150$ 8.5x8.5 silpoly tarp from Yama gear. I use a bug head net when necessary. (No bivy sack)
P.S. I used the 8.5x8.5 tarp with a poncho/hammock on my section hike of the Sierra (Walker pass to Donner pass) in 2018. It proved to be a great setup.👍
Tarps work. If you cannot spend 500 plus. In the Appalachian it needs to be paired with a bivy. Other cheaper alternatives for a all in one tarp tent is 6 moons designs and tarptent, the company.
Great video brother! I think you said it right. Different style of camping with different experiences. Same reason why would you use a striking rod when you can take a box lighter…. It’s just fun!
Thanks a lot for that new video! You said you prefer a (trekkingpole-) tent because it gives you kind of peace of mind for setting it up at the end of a day during a trail. It would be cool to see a video from you where you compare trekking pole tents with freestanding tents. I think about this because with a freestanding tent you would have still less to think about the set up. So i was wondering why you don t prefer a freestanding tent like tiger wall to an xmid?
Thanks for the vid! Sounds like you already have the best tarp we've ever used!....the Durston Gear "fly only" pitch. Ends up being a shaped tarp with all the benefits of the X-Mid (except bug protection of course) while still being basically a tarp. And instead of a bivy, you can insert the inner net if desired We've learned the Pro 2 fly only is 10.7oz and the Pro 1 is 9.1oz. When Dan eventually releases DCF flys, it could really change the tarping options our there
I consider the x-mids trekking pole tents and not tarps. They have defined pitch and dedicated inner. I would love to get a modular dcf 2p fly though! Pair that with the 1p inner and you have a beast of a tent at ~20 oz.
I've been using the Borah Gear ultralight bivy & 7x9 silpoly flat tarp. I'm digging it so far and doesn't cost a fortune. I like the modular setup. The bivy also supplements my sleep system. I like the options. I could swap in a Paria Breeze Bug Bivy for mosquito season without too much of a weight penalty. Or swap in the outer fly of a Lanshan 1 for more protection. If I could afford it, I'd probably try out the Hexamid or Gossamer Gear Whisper. It's not the end all. I'll still use a hammock or freestanding tent but I'm enjoying the tarp & bivy lately.
Very interesting play out of the concept. I am leaning towards a Durston X-Mid or an Argali. I still think the tarp is great for expedient use, weather protection in a camp or with a hammock. Cannot see myself using my tarp as my primary shelter any longer.
i've got a slingfin split wing, just the tarp it self weighs 7.9 pz (just the tarp), add 2oz for the vestibule and your completely covered. it's not DCF it's hard to find a tarp for 100% coverage that's not DCF for 10oz..... now add in bug protection like a bug bivy from borah and your around 15oz or the mesh body by split wing and your around 21oz or just a S2S bug net for 3oz and your around 14oz. the whole set up is fairly small as well.
When it comes to flat tarps the math ain't mathin anymore. Shaped tarps paired with an inner net tent is a different story. Tarp camping is a great skill to learn but for general light weight/ultralight camping you can pair a Pocket tarp and a Serenity net tent (and other similar combinations) for much more room and storm resistance and only a couple more ounces, if that. Tarp camping is an excellent skill to know but for most ultralight I'll take a Plex solo, shaped tarp and inner combo over a tarp and bivy any day.
Interesting... But if you look at shelters morle like as tools, then tarps definetly will have it's place - for example in mountain hiking - many times there is way more options to sleep higher up but there is not enaugh flat ground for a tent, but almost always there is a lot of good spots for sleeping pad and then just put tarp over and attach it to cliff.
What you say makes sense to me. But I am a hammock camper, so I use a tarp. My lightest comfortable setup is a 11' Mambajamba tarp (13.5 oz including cord) + 11' netted hammock (16oz) + dyneema hammock suspension (3 oz) . Just about 2 lbs
I wanted to mention hammocks but completely forgot. I have a WB Blackbird and have camped in it quite a lot over several years. I feel like hammocks are almost in a separate category. Yes, the do use a tarp but it's so different from a ground tarp. If I was still out living out east a hammock would be my main shelter. Great at impacted sites (hard and muddy ground), tight trees, sloped/uneven ground, frequent rain, and high humidity.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors Agreed! So much better in treed areas, due to comfort. Especially better in areas with uneven/hard/wet ground or lots of rain and humidity, A tent cant compare in those conditions
Precisely, tarps not longer makes sense with the advent of modern tent designs and build materials. These days it’s just a romantic notion or novelty to tarp camp over multi days.
I just picked up an older model Lanshan trekking pole tent that weighs 29 ounces...it was $135 CAD. It's hard to justify the cash for a modular tarp setup when there are options like that.
While I've always admired the Tarp users, I prefer a tent. In the infantry, a tarp (rain poncho) makes sense for low profile, and concealment purposes, and used in combination with a bug net for the head. GoreTex bivy bags were introduced a couple of years prior to my release. Remember, we're sleeping fully clothed with our weapon next to us - response time is the priority. In the winter, mostly 10-man tents or improvised shelters. Having said all that, I'll like my lux elbow room, LOL. I'm currently rocking an HMG UltaMid 4 for winter and an UltaMid 2 with a half-insert for bug season. I also have a Tarptent Double Rainbow Li (DCF). In all cases, I get a lot of elbow room, easy to set up, and light weight. Yes, I realize I need a bit of real estate for the pyramid tents. I use a HydraPak Stash 1L bottle for the middle of the night pee. While I like the new HMG Splash Bivy with a tarp... I think I might flirt with a hammock & tarp before I get back into a bivy. Great vlog, Kane 🙏🏼
I disagree, mostly. It may be that the tarp era is over because it ends when its popularity does, and many look at the numbers the way this video laid out. However, a tarp only weighs as much as a tent when, as the video did, someone tries to make it a tent by adding an insert or bivy. IMO, during 3 season use, an insert or bivy is best used modularly as a short-term supplement to a tarp, e.g., a thruhiker picking up an insert for a buggy section of trail or for someone that prefers tarps and doesn't want to own a tent for occasional use. If a person wants a tent, they are better off with a tent. However, there are still many advantages to a tarp - less weight if you compare comparable materials, increased visibility from your shelter, versatility, far better ventilation, easier to dry out when it is wet, no tiny zippers (usually) destined to failure, the ability to escape the shelter if Sasquatch attacks, and the ability to roll over and pee (for boys) out the side of your shelter without getting up in the middle of the night.
All good points, a lot of them I've made myself in other videos. The biggest advantage imo is ventilation. Packing up a tarp last when you're in the rain is a big one as well. For most people ease of use balanced with weight are the two main factors when picking a shelter. The popularity of zpacks tents is a great case study on that.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors I agree it primarily comes down to ease of use and weight. Although different people will weight those criteria differently, I agree the popularity of the lightest tents on the market like the Zpacks models does show where the market lies, literally. Like you said, packing the tarp last in rain is more convenient than a tent, but that reminded me of even more significant advantages, to me. I love the abilities to take a tarp down first thing in the morning if it isn't raining and to adjust for unexpected rain by pitching a tarp over my established cowboy camp without the hassle of moving into a tent.
I don't understand how tents can be general solution over tarps in near future outside of possibility of so light materials that weight can be ignored and even in this case maybe space will be more important. Both can be from same material so tarps will be always less weight IF you don't need to add bivyy/inner bug net. Size of tarps material can be smaller than tents due to size possibility of no full closure option for tarps. For me tents will stay supreme in winter conditions and that's all. Problem is people don't want to spend even 1 weekend to train few basic tarp combinations including fully closed one :( And pitching tent easier than tarp? That must be some really special case favoring free standing tents, all other special cases where tarps are not good go in favor of hammocks :)
I still prefer tarp, despite loving my Durston X-Mid Pro 2. Main reason is the flexibility and freedom. With a tent, you need to find a larger flat space to pitch it. With a tarp, i only need a space flat enough for my back. I also don’t like contorting my body to get in and out of tents. With a tarp, i can pitch it high enough and open enough that i can get up and out, or half-way or very low if it’s strong wind and rain. It’s simplistic to reduce the decision of tarp v tent to just weight (and I’m not accusing you of doing that, but lots of people do). I got a Katabatic Gear bivy if there are bugs or i can use it as bathtub floor if there’s a downpour, but most of the time, i just use the tarp by itself. Each location is a tailor made suit when setting up the tarp, and i can adjust to the landscape (using a fallen tree as a wall/shield), pitching it in areas inaccessible to tents. And if I’m with a group of people and there’s a sudden rain, I’m the hero as everybody can huddle under a simple lean-to set up. You mentioned Tyvek-but that’s a wash, as most people using tents also bring a groundsheet of some sort (esp w/ultralight dyneema tents that are fragile). I think tarps will get less and less popular, but that’s not due to their inferiority, but due to the skills gap most people have (or rather ,the skills they lack) which render a tarp a bad choice. Surely, somebody who can’t effectively use a tarp shouldn’t get one. But if you can effectively use it, it’s superior to the latest and greatest ultralight tents.
HMG has crazy high prices that don't reflect the current reality of DCF products being fairly commonplace. One example is their DCF rolltop food bag for $60, with identical food bags from cottage vendors selling for $40.
I have to agree with you. I love love love my tarps BUT...I just can't justify them anymore since I got the Plex-Solo at 13-14 oz. I value efficiency while backpacking and I can setup my tent quicker than I can setup my tarp and don't have to be quite as selective on the site selection. The cost of tarps and bivies have gotten so expensive with little to no weight savings that it's hard to justify. I think tarp camping is now for those who just simply enjoy tarps and the tarp experience. No longer are they cheaper, lighter, or more efficient. They're just fun and that's the whole point of getting out in the backcountry. Love your content!
The plex solo is absurdly light!
Excellent conversation and I tend to agree. I started using tarps to reduce weight & bulk and add simplicity. I love my GG Gatewood Cape at only 11 oz and it also serves as a rain poncho and pack cover. However, with a 5 oz groundsheet of tyvek, I'm at 16 oz. With the DCF tents from the past few years, even at a higher price, a 16 oz complete tent with bug netting and vestibule sounds very appealing. I've been tarping less and using my 10+ year old 1-person SMD Trekker tent. At 27 oz I like the added protection. When it's time to replace it, I'm pretty sure I'm going with the Xmid Pro 1 at 16 oz and quite packable.
That price to weight ratio is near my DCF Mt Laurel Design Duomid XL 7’x 9’ 15 OZ-ish territory. I do have a tarp- tyvek 10’ x 12’ mainly for far camping
Great and informative video as always! Tips, tricks and advice is just what a newb like me appreciates as I get more involved with camping and backpacking 👍
Weird to not see snow 😁
I use a tarp to make a little living room. Enough for two chairs and a table.
For short trips with good weather, I like to UL bivy camping (borah gear) and the tarp is there for ‘just in case’ situations. That’s pretty much been my tarp experience. I like this because campsite choices are so much greater.
I think a tarp still has a spot in my kit. I like not having to worry about my gear getting wet when I’m putting up the fly. You have some good points though. That and it’s easier to set up a tent on the tent pads. I still think maybe a tarp will be emergency use but I don’t know. It’s a struggle what shelter to bring anymore
Im not a long distance hiker but I've heard people like Jupiter describe the benefit in those situations where you can send the bivy home and not carry it if you know the next leg of your journey isnt gonna be buggy/hot. In that way, the modularity can save a lot of weight carried.
I dunno though, when you can scrap the bivy, a zpacks 150 gram 7 x 9 tarp + 180 MLD Bug bivy is pretty sweet, and it takes up a lot less room.
I like the question you pose though, things are definitely more equal that they used to be (especially since before trekking pole tents in Ray's time). Nothing beats the simplicity of a tarp though.
U making a lot of sense, got me thinking now!
No disagreement with the points you've laid out. For me, I'll stick with a square tarp in either silpoly (preferred) or silnylon. My primary reason is versatility. I'm mostly a hammock guy, so I use a diamond setup for rain protection. With that same tarp (8.5x8.5 or 10x10), I can set up a plow-point for milder conditions or one of two different types of trekking pole tarp tents that will protect me in some pretty crummy weather. I use these tarps year round in all kinds of conditions. My favorite tarp is a 150$ 8.5x8.5 silpoly tarp from Yama gear. I use a bug head net when necessary. (No bivy sack)
P.S.
I used the 8.5x8.5 tarp with a poncho/hammock on my section hike of the Sierra (Walker pass to Donner pass) in 2018. It proved to be a great setup.👍
Tarps work. If you cannot spend 500 plus. In the Appalachian it needs to be paired with a bivy. Other cheaper alternatives for a all in one tarp tent is 6 moons designs and tarptent, the company.
Great video brother! I think you said it right. Different style of camping with different experiences. Same reason why would you use a striking rod when you can take a box lighter…. It’s just fun!
Thanks a lot for that new video! You said you prefer a (trekkingpole-) tent because it gives you kind of peace of mind for setting it up at the end of a day during a trail. It would be cool to see a video from you where you compare trekking pole tents with freestanding tents. I think about this because with a freestanding tent you would have still less to think about the set up.
So i was wondering why you don t prefer a freestanding tent like tiger wall to an xmid?
Thanks for the vid!
Sounds like you already have the best tarp we've ever used!....the Durston Gear "fly only" pitch. Ends up being a shaped tarp with all the benefits of the X-Mid (except bug protection of course) while still being basically a tarp. And instead of a bivy, you can insert the inner net if desired
We've learned the Pro 2 fly only is 10.7oz and the Pro 1 is 9.1oz. When Dan eventually releases DCF flys, it could really change the tarping options our there
I consider the x-mids trekking pole tents and not tarps. They have defined pitch and dedicated inner. I would love to get a modular dcf 2p fly though! Pair that with the 1p inner and you have a beast of a tent at ~20 oz.
In the end they're just tools we use for hiking, just use the right tool for the hike
Yeah, I keep relearning that gear can't solve all my problems and a bit of fieldcraft can go a long way.
I've been using the Borah Gear ultralight bivy & 7x9 silpoly flat tarp. I'm digging it so far and doesn't cost a fortune. I like the modular setup. The bivy also supplements my sleep system. I like the options. I could swap in a Paria Breeze Bug Bivy for mosquito season without too much of a weight penalty. Or swap in the outer fly of a Lanshan 1 for more protection.
If I could afford it, I'd probably try out the Hexamid or Gossamer Gear Whisper.
It's not the end all. I'll still use a hammock or freestanding tent but I'm enjoying the tarp & bivy lately.
Hey Kane, kind of off topic but curious why you chose the Xmid solid over the regular Xmid?
Thanks for everything you do really enjoy your channel😃
It’s a little better in shoulder season cutting down on drafts. Plus I like the colour. Only 30g penalty.
Very interesting play out of the concept. I am leaning towards a Durston X-Mid or an Argali. I still think the tarp is great for expedient use, weather protection in a camp or with a hammock. Cannot see myself using my tarp as my primary shelter any longer.
i've got a slingfin split wing, just the tarp it self weighs 7.9 pz (just the tarp), add 2oz for the vestibule and your completely covered. it's not DCF it's hard to find a tarp for 100% coverage that's not DCF for 10oz..... now add in bug protection like a bug bivy from borah and your around 15oz or the mesh body by split wing and your around 21oz or just a S2S bug net for 3oz and your around 14oz. the whole set up is fairly small as well.
When it comes to flat tarps the math ain't mathin anymore. Shaped tarps paired with an inner net tent is a different story. Tarp camping is a great skill to learn but for general light weight/ultralight camping you can pair a Pocket tarp and a Serenity net tent (and other similar combinations) for much more room and storm resistance and only a couple more ounces, if that. Tarp camping is an excellent skill to know but for most ultralight I'll take a Plex solo, shaped tarp and inner combo over a tarp and bivy any day.
Interesting... But if you look at shelters morle like as tools, then tarps definetly will have it's place - for example in mountain hiking - many times there is way more options to sleep higher up but there is not enaugh flat ground for a tent, but almost always there is a lot of good spots for sleeping pad and then just put tarp over and attach it to cliff.
What you say makes sense to me. But I am a hammock camper, so I use a tarp. My lightest comfortable setup is a 11' Mambajamba tarp (13.5 oz including cord) + 11' netted hammock (16oz) + dyneema hammock suspension (3 oz) . Just about 2 lbs
I wanted to mention hammocks but completely forgot. I have a WB Blackbird and have camped in it quite a lot over several years. I feel like hammocks are almost in a separate category. Yes, the do use a tarp but it's so different from a ground tarp. If I was still out living out east a hammock would be my main shelter. Great at impacted sites (hard and muddy ground), tight trees, sloped/uneven ground, frequent rain, and high humidity.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors Agreed! So much better in treed areas, due to comfort. Especially better in areas with uneven/hard/wet ground or lots of rain and humidity, A tent cant compare in those conditions
Traditional Tarps I don't care for. But shaped tarps like the Trailstar are still amazing.
Precisely, tarps not longer makes sense with the advent of modern tent designs and build materials. These days it’s just a romantic notion or novelty to tarp camp over multi days.
Nothing beats a tarp!! If it's raining.. simple silpoly tarp
I just picked up an older model Lanshan trekking pole tent that weighs 29 ounces...it was $135 CAD. It's hard to justify the cash for a modular tarp setup when there are options like that.
You’re gonna sleep on the ground?? 😮
@@KaneDoesOutdoors lol! I slum it every now and then.
Tarp was always a get by shelter or emergency shelter…no comparison for protection 🤷♂️
The concept of being so exposed to animals while in your most vulnerable state (asleep) has always freaked me out.
While I've always admired the Tarp users, I prefer a tent. In the infantry, a tarp (rain poncho) makes sense for low profile, and concealment purposes, and used in combination with a bug net for the head. GoreTex bivy bags were introduced a couple of years prior to my release. Remember, we're sleeping fully clothed with our weapon next to us - response time is the priority. In the winter, mostly 10-man tents or improvised shelters.
Having said all that, I'll like my lux elbow room, LOL. I'm currently rocking an HMG UltaMid 4 for winter and an UltaMid 2 with a half-insert for bug season. I also have a Tarptent Double Rainbow Li (DCF). In all cases, I get a lot of elbow room, easy to set up, and light weight.
Yes, I realize I need a bit of real estate for the pyramid tents.
I use a HydraPak Stash 1L bottle for the middle of the night pee.
While I like the new HMG Splash Bivy with a tarp... I think I might flirt with a hammock & tarp before I get back into a bivy.
Great vlog, Kane 🙏🏼
I disagree, mostly. It may be that the tarp era is over because it ends when its popularity does, and many look at the numbers the way this video laid out. However, a tarp only weighs as much as a tent when, as the video did, someone tries to make it a tent by adding an insert or bivy. IMO, during 3 season use, an insert or bivy is best used modularly as a short-term supplement to a tarp, e.g., a thruhiker picking up an insert for a buggy section of trail or for someone that prefers tarps and doesn't want to own a tent for occasional use. If a person wants a tent, they are better off with a tent. However, there are still many advantages to a tarp - less weight if you compare comparable materials, increased visibility from your shelter, versatility, far better ventilation, easier to dry out when it is wet, no tiny zippers (usually) destined to failure, the ability to escape the shelter if Sasquatch attacks, and the ability to roll over and pee (for boys) out the side of your shelter without getting up in the middle of the night.
All good points, a lot of them I've made myself in other videos. The biggest advantage imo is ventilation. Packing up a tarp last when you're in the rain is a big one as well. For most people ease of use balanced with weight are the two main factors when picking a shelter. The popularity of zpacks tents is a great case study on that.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors I agree it primarily comes down to ease of use and weight. Although different people will weight those criteria differently, I agree the popularity of the lightest tents on the market like the Zpacks models does show where the market lies, literally. Like you said, packing the tarp last in rain is more convenient than a tent, but that reminded me of even more significant advantages, to me. I love the abilities to take a tarp down first thing in the morning if it isn't raining and to adjust for unexpected rain by pitching a tarp over my established cowboy camp without the hassle of moving into a tent.
👍
I don't understand how tents can be general solution over tarps in near future outside of possibility of so light materials that weight can be ignored and even in this case maybe space will be more important. Both can be from same material so tarps will be always less weight IF you don't need to add bivyy/inner bug net. Size of tarps material can be smaller than tents due to size possibility of no full closure option for tarps. For me tents will stay supreme in winter conditions and that's all. Problem is people don't want to spend even 1 weekend to train few basic tarp combinations including fully closed one :( And pitching tent easier than tarp? That must be some really special case favoring free standing tents, all other special cases where tarps are not good go in favor of hammocks :)