Dr. R.C. Sproul on 1Cor 13:9-10 and "Cessationism?"
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Dr. R.C. Sproul's stance on Cessation (Cessationism) expounding how he defines "Miracle" and clarification on verse 1 Corinthians 13:9-10.
This QA was is from the "R.C. Sproul: Questions & Answers" from the Ligonier Ministries channel.
URL: • R.C. Sproul: Questions...
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I love you, brother Sproul. The gifts weren't given to only authenticate authorship though.
1 Corinthians 12:7
To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
What else were they given for?
@@BaconPizza the common good
@@Stanzi18 oh? Like bring God more glory?
@@BaconPizza why are you picking a fight?
@@Stanzi18 what? I’m trying to understand
The Apostle does tell us what the “perfect” is in 1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
It is not the completion of the canon in view in verses 9&10, because Paul was still adding to canon in this letter to the Corinthians.
I respected R C Sproul but he was a cessationist and his plain reading of scripture was clouded by his theology on the gifts of the spirit.
Amen and amen. I was reasoning the similar way for a long time and never heard anybody else doing that before. Now i know that i am not alone.
So healing & financial prosperity is not included in the atonement?
@@savedchristian4754
Not at all.
I really like this man but his view on calvinist and cessation i really disagreed....in my life alone so many healing n prediction came to passed
There were prophets from Jerusalem whose prophecies are not recorded in Scripture, except by Agabus, concerning a famine, a warning that was acted upon:
Ac 11^27-30 ; (Ac 13^1)
Also, the prophecies by the 4 daughters of an evangelist at Ceasarea are not recorded in Scripture; the prophet Agabus also gave a prophetic warning to Paul:
Ac 21^8-11
Timothy received personal prophecies concerning his ministry and Gift:
1-Tim 1^18 ; 1-Tim 4^14
It seems that the Gifts will only cease at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", when we see Him face to face:
1-Cor 1^7 ; 1-Cor 13^9-12
Some disciples at Ephesus spoke in Tongues and prophesied after receiving the Holy Spirit:
Ac 19^6
Also, why would God inspire Scripture for us concerning the Gifts in the church if already expired? These Gifts, including prophecy, are given, not to add to Scripture, but to edify and equip the church:
1-Cor 12 & 14 ; Eph 4^8-12
Jesus and John warned us against "false" prophets, not against all prophecy; test the spirits:
Mat 24^24 ; 1-Jn 4^1-3
We should not despise prophesy:
1-Thess 5^19-21
We are encouraged to desire the Gifts, especially prophesy, but are given by the Holy Spirit as He wills:
1-Cor 14^1 ; 12^11
ua-cam.com/video/Eb9oBiv-KSY/v-deo.html
Excellent Biblical response 🙏 watching Gavin Ortlund “Cessationist: A Critical Evaluation” and he is literally showing these Scriptures at the minute around 25min in
Could you provide examples from church history ??
Absolute proof that gifts of signs have not ceased; the future coming of the Two Witnesses of Revelation.
I’m guessing you don’t believe in dispensations. You can’t take anything from the word and apply it to today.
@@lukegilbert521
Shouldn't people who are demon possessed be delivered now?
@@savedchristian4754Jesus delivers
@@jerrodlopes186 and the fact that spiritual gifts are in use today and have existed throught all of the last 2000 years (a book exists showing this)
I love this man
Legend
@@corbinclarke9795
Do you want to wear an oxygen hose wherever you go just as he did by denying healing in Christ's atonement?
@savedchristian4754 how did the early church miss this ???
Jesus " If you don't believe what I say , believe because of the Miracles ".
For now and forever.
Wow... So true
Who was he speaking to?
Who did Jesus come for in His earthly ministry?
@@tomtemple69
So healing & financial prosperity is not included in the atonement?
Great job, Mr. Sproul. " I cant give you any scripture to back it up, but Im RC Sproul and I think this....".
And now, here I am, who had been supernaturally healed by Jesus from last stage liver chyrosis to complete health. What occured to me? A sign, wonder, miracle, supernatural act? Obviously not a part of biblical revelation, but it happened, although it didn't give God more scriptural glory. Do I correctly understand Sproul, that it's not strictly a biblical sign from the bible, but it is a supernatural act, fit for NT believers?
God is still in the business of healing. I believe rc and many all the reformers would agree. God does heal people to this day. Praise Jesus! But there aren't people like the apostles walking around healing everyone and casting out demons like in the bible.
@@joem13yearsago73 So if I understand it correctly: God is still in the business of healing and His Holy Spirit is still given to people, but the Holy Spirit either don't want to (regularly?) work miraculously through people anymore/God doesn't reward peoples faith in that way anymore, Jesus' name isn't powerful anymore and/or miracles through the Holy Spirit can be anything except casting out demons, healing, prophecies, tongues, etc?
@@bdv4622 Well said! There is no place in Scripture that says the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Cessationists deny the power of God and make Him out to be a liar.
I have personally experienced the gifts of the Spirit and countless other signs and wonders operating in my own life, seen them in operation in others, and know people who have also experienced them in their lives. This includes but is not limited to healing, miracles (including raising the dead), word of knowledge, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits, deliverance from demons, gems coming down from heaven, the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, dreams, visions, encounters with angels, being caught up to heaven, visits to hell, prophecy, and much much more. To God be all the glory forever and ever.
Please see this article I've written disproving cessationism:
wordistrue.blogspot.com/2022/07/have-gifts-ceased.html
Here are two bonus articles about a boy raised from the dead by one of my students and another one about a pastor friend of mine who was raised from the dead.
plovdivtestimonies.blogspot.com/2012/05/raised-from-dead.html
budapesttestimonies.blogspot.com/2021/07/boy-raised-from-dead-after-one-day.html
Why should anyone consider it incredible that God still raises the dead (Ac 26:8)?
I've seen things that these so called Thologians would have a stroke over and die bec their tiny unfaithful worldly brains couldn't handle it
@@bdv4622 if only you knew the amount i spend to understand just that and still get confused ... like for me if Christ is in us then why wouldnt it be present in our lives? like mark 16 dont exist for us or am i just wrong again ?!?!?!?!
It should be easy to solve this question. Have a televised meeting of the top "healers" from the world. Have just one of them cure a man blind from birth, or crippled since birth that gets up and walks away after the healing. This hasn't happened once since the Apostles went home. Where are the proven (i.e. medical records, pictures of the healed person pre and post miracle) cases of this happening, once, in present day with everyone having a cell phone.
Even if some saw a man resurrected from the dead, they would still not believe.
@@RiseOnFire does not change what the OP said.
Not a good test, because people do not necessarily have the ability to heal at will, although God could use them as much as he likes
Your reply comes from a misunderstanding of the giftS of healing. Healing's are giftS. The gift of healing isn’t a gift. Read 1 Corinthians 12:9 and 12:30 again.
On point, the works of Christ & His holy Apostles showed that Christ Jesus was exactly who He & they said He was, it reveals the power of God & that Jesus is the way the truth & the life, His gospel of grace has come. Hebrews 2 puts it to bed
* So healing & financial prosperity is not included in the atonement?
So his logic says - the sign gifts are to confirm apostles so they can bring forth canonical doctrine. Then why don't we have doctrine from each of the 12 apostles? Why do we also have examples of others, apart from the 12 who operated in signs and miracles, even women who prophecied? Where is their scripture?
All non sequitur...
To RC’s point that the signs authenticated NT Apostles & OT Prophets: “How can it be proven (not merely assumed) that they do not authenticate teachers in the post-Apostolic Church age?”
Exactly!
Conveyed exactly what I could not in many words.
Where in scripture (assuming you are a Sola scriptura) is it ever indicated that the apostolic age of the church has ended? We know that there were other apostles besides the 12 and Paul and in consideration of Ephesians 4 describing the offices of 5 fold ministry as given by Christ, how does one biblically assert that there are no longer apostles being given to the church today?
@djhu306 Don't know about apostolic age, because in the scriptures apostles terminology seems to me mentioned to refer to the 12. But, yes nowhere in the scriptures does it say that the gifts of holy spirit will cease. In fact, Paul says that - we need to eagerly seek the gifts (not seek gifts until 3rd century, later they will cease). Also, before my very eyes I have encountered genuine born-again believers who have the gifts, one of them had a super-natural revelation of Cross/Jesus before my eyes. and so on. I still don't have gifts. But, I can never ever say, given what I have witnessed, that such things are a thing of the past - absurd - even according to the scriptures - sola scriptura.. in all sincerity. Actually, if the 'gifts of holy spirit continuing today' was mentioned to me before 2014 (I was introduced to Jesus around 2007), I would have thought that that is strange and highly improbable. But, given that in 2014 I came to a US prayer ministry - I witnessed such things on an daily basis. I deeply came to understand some people who had such gifts.
Right, and it is also possible for false apostles to produce the miraculous, so not a clear test
1 Thessalonians 19-20 “Quench not the spirit, despise not prophesyings”
Exactly. Please see my article disproving cessationism at this link:
wordistrue.blogspot.com/2022/07/have-gifts-ceased.html
#contextmatters
but test everything; hold fast what is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 ESV
You dropped the next verse 😉
@@SemperReformanda91 they're very good at that lol. Or "judge not, lest you be judged". Exegetes understand that we have to allow Scripture to speak for itself, even if we dont "like" it.
Jesus himself said there would only be ONE sign- the sign of Jonah, His own ressurection
Spot on Mr. Sproud! I would suggest when Paul states, "when that which is perfect is come", is a direct reference to what pleases God, perfect to God is faith by hearing and believing in the scriptures, either read or heard by a pastor. Jesus chided the unbelieving Jews wanting signs on demand from him, because that was a requirement to prove a prophet was from God (Det 13). Jesus said, an evil and adulterous generation seeks signs. What pleases God is faith, without signs and wonders, because that which may be known of God is manifest in them (Rom 1:18-32), that which is perfect is faith in believing in Jesus because we're to search the scriptures as he said, for they testify of him. The gifts ceased, no more signs and wonders, no more prophecy or supernatural Holy Spirit given knowledge is needed, because we have God's full Revelation right now, called, the BIBLE! Faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That which is perfect, has come!
What about the two witnesses in Revelation? Have they ceased? Don't think so!
Neither has knowledge ceased. When Christ comes and we reserve our new bodies in a Heaven and kingdom that doesn’t perish, that sounds perfect. I think we try to use our own knowledge and wisdom sometimes when the answer is a lot more obvious.
God saved me 6 years ago or so when I ran away and I spent much time just myself, Him and His word and I started praying in tongues.
Best explanation regarding this subject.
Where does the Bible say only apostles would have signs? Did Jesus say these things will follow those who believe in Mark?
@@amzlee998
So healing & financial prosperity is not included in the atonement?
please if you have the gifts of healing please go empty the hospital of the sick just please please please ....
@@savedchristian4754
Acts 2:39
1 Corinthians 14:39
1 Corinthians 13:8-12 (don't stop at vs 11. Vs. 12 does desribe what Paul meant the perfect to be).
2 Timothy 3:16
Matthew 12:22-32. Don't be on the wrong side of that.
Context. Context. Context.
What do each of those passages that go with those references teach? Don't fall back on the teachings of men, but what does scripture actually say?
I would love to get into a conversation about this. I have posted a similar challenge on more than ten similar UA-cam videos over the past few days and the only response was a single vehemant attack on me for taking those verses out of context.
Look closely. I do not even say what i think the context is. I only ask that you consider the context based on what the bible actually says and not some opinion of man that you have been taught.
I am looking forward to further discussion. Please respond. WITH SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
Where did the demons go? They ceased too?
He wasn't talking about that. He was talking about sign gifts.
@@Brother_Timothy_Harvey exactly they were signs of casting out demons still in mark 16
@disciple-rd7fr best comment ever
What do demons have to do with the gifts?
Exactly 👌
Where does scripture teaches that signs and wonders authenticate authorship of scripture ?
Look it up, or just read your Bible. It’s everywhere. Jesus said “so that you may know your sins are forgiven I’ll heal you” to the paralytic. & to another paralytic He said after the healing “go and sin no more so that nothing worse by abound” meaning that the consequence of sin is far worse than being paralyzed. He did the healing out of compassion but ultimately the reason was to authenticate His Gospel message. The Gospel message preserved in sacred Scripture & reiterated by His divinely appointed Apostles.
@@tjs.5044 thanks, but that's not exegisis of scripture
@@Skolower What isn’t exegesis? The part where Jesus says “So that you may know your sins are forgiven”? Or the part where He told the other paralytic to “sin no more, lest anything worse may abound”? Be specific, because those are directly from Scripture.
He literally says “so that you may know your sins are forgiven” that literally means “I’m healing you so that you know Im not lying about the forgiveness of sin” go and read for yourself lol
@@tjs.5044 oops you are right I made a mistake while formulating my question so you did answer.
I meant where does scripture teaches that these signs only have this purpose of authenticating the Gospel message given that sovereignly God can give them as He pleases to accomplish His purposes (such as the spreading of the Gospel even today for instance)
WHY DOES CESDATIONISM DENY THE ATONEMENT TO COVER FOOD & HEALTH?
what you talkin bout wills
@@richardnewell8478
Do you believe health & food etc are redeemed by Christ's atonement?
@@savedchristian4754 seems off topic
@@richardnewell8478
It will be for you because you believe health & food etc are not redeemed by Christ's atonement. You are dodging.
@@savedchristian4754 You need to be more specific and justify your position with New Testament scripture
This is what happens when man tries to use reason in order to interpret the bible it always ends in deception or worse unbelief. Just because one is a "bible scholar" doesn't mean they have all the answers. We all struggle with a lot of things in the bible that's why we have such great hope for the coming of Christ when we will see face to face AND understand all things but until then it's better to say , "I don't know how it works" or "I find it hard to believe" that to concoct false doctrine that contradicts So many scriptures.
He’s right about 1 Cor 13 but his theological reasoning regarding the ceasing of “miracles,” rooted in passages where Jesus appeals to the authority of miracles as a witness to Him, is divorced from countless mentions in scripture of “miracles” performed by non-authors of scripture. Likewise, church history is replete with reports of miracles. Heck, even Aquinas, one of Sproul’s top 2 favorite theologians, had a similar experience to what he said Benny Hinn experienced and he stopped writing his opus, Summa Theologica, because of it. He said what he had experienced made what he’d written seem so elementary. Sometimes it seems the anti-supernatural bias of the Enlightenment has affected modern Evangelicals more than they want to admit. I love Sproul, but I’d like to see more thinking believers be both exegetically and historically sound, as well as honest with themselves, regarding this subject.
Perfect!
"Sometimes it seems the anti-supernatural bias of the Enlightenment has affected modern Evangelicals more than they want to admit. I love Sproul, but I’d like to see more thinking believers be both exegetically and historically sound, as well as honest with themselves, regarding this subject." - That is exactly what I wanted to say, but could not.
Do you have any more than Aquinas? I hardly hear of anything in church history that doesn't point to cessationism prior to the last few centuries. Especially with the rise of pentecostalism
@@sovereigngrace9723 I think the first fallacy is "Do you have any more than Aquinas?" - No other human being is any standard by which we can gauge - more or less. Second, I personally have seen a lot of supernatural in a church (that was a cult - and they have their own interpretation to many verses of Bible which they think is 'superior' to other churches). I am out of that cult now. But, there I saw that there was a lot of 'spiritual' or supernatural activity - and came to the conclusion that not everything was from God. Most of the people there spoke in tongues, but not everyone believed in the right doctrine (and their tongues appeared to be more shrill - that's my judgement). But, there were some people, including one person who is my friend - who got revelation of Jesus right in front of me. She is just a very simple person. And after that she started urging me to come out of the church (cult). She asked me this question related to the church's interpretation (which seemed very deep and complicated) of one verse of Bible: "Is that about Jesus, God or grace?" That question led me to come out of the church. But, the point is - She also speaks in tongue (her tongue did not seem shrill) and she also interprets tongues. There are some other people (I was friends with) in the church - who came out of the church - but have experienced supernatural outside of the cult church. Also, my friend met a group of girls from other church (not related to Pentecostalism) who also prayed in tongues (and lived in supernatural on a regular basis) & contributed to her healing after she left the cult church. They believe in regular doctrine - but are not averse to supernatural. To sum it all - I have never spoken in tongues or seen supernatural - but I have friends who are authentic & I vouch for their sincerity and sound (regular / orthodox) doctrine.
There are two different kinds of descriptions of tongues in Bible - 1) Acts 2:6 - where Apostles and those gathered spoke in tongues & people from different nationalities heard it in their own language. 2) 1 Cor 14:4-5, 23 - where Apostle Paul indicates that no one else other than those speaking in tongues can understand what they are speaking unless someone interprets. So often some pastors - focus on either of the two different descriptions - to validate or disqualify gifts of tongues in contemporary churches.
I got it! See you later Brother.
This is a very weak response. For someone who holds such a belief, it lacks cogency. 1) he limits rgument to miracles 2) he dismisses without argument the quoted text 3) he hides behind an academic cloak (people in the church know what a true miracle is 4) he cites Benny Hinn as an example of a continuationist! What! Very disappointed.
very true. what i see for cessasationalism is a lack of desire to know and experience the gift for themselves. "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophecy" - I Corinthians 14:1
There are verses in the New Testament that say signs and wonders were thee to confirm the message, but not the messengers.
The devil would not preach about holiness and they confirm
It with signs.
@@ugodaves6577 correct, the devil preaches a false gospel and confirms it with signs and wonders
There is no category of “sign” gifts in scripture. It is a category made up by “professional” theologians.
Signs and wonders were not only done by Apostles or writers of scripture and they are different to gifts of the spirit.
Poorly answered Dr Sproul.
I Corinthians 13:11 When we see face to face. When we see Jesus face to face, the coming of Jesus, than, than the gifts will cease. You have to be spiritually blind to not reconize that miracles and healing happens in the 21st century. God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Read your bible. Acts 2:38-39
amen. It says they will receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit if they are saved and their children and the children after that and so on. never did it say except ur children won’t get the gifts i will take away. you cannot just add things to ur bible. God never says He took some gifts away
@@engelalats3691 gift of the Holy Spirit. Not gifts
Amen !
The gifts are very well alive and God does still audibly speak.
Oh please cessation is unbiblical, it firs away with the gifts, unagine a daddy who doesn't want to gift His kids not to mention the former and latter rain. Miracles ceased because religeon replaced faith.
Where are the scriptures say that we are living epistles so I guess I had to scripture but it can’t come out of alignment of scripture and sir you’re too late miracles do happen I have experienced them and have wrapped them through the order of Jesus it has not passed away good Lord at any time now that that we need miracles for those to believe it’s in this day and age do you think people are listening to scripture no they don’t even agree that it’s inspired they must have a supernatural experience. I don’t care how much of a theologian you areIf you believed that miracles were today maybe you’d get rid of that air hose sorry to be crass but it’s necessary
you can deny all you want but we do not yet see him face to face as the scripture says we will when the signs cease. it could not be any plainer yet people try to make it mean something completely different.
why do they do that? because of pride. they do not see it in their own lives and church so they conclude they must have ceased. better to seek God for answers instead of thinking you correct due to a lack in your own ministry.
Exactly. They deny the power of God, either because they have been taught the gifts have ceased or because they don't have His power in their lives and churches. In some cases it is both that they don't have the power and they were taught not to believe in it. Cessationists deny the power of God and make Him out to be a liar.
Paul's statement in His defense to King Agrippa was quite relevant to this topic: Why should anyone consider it incredible that God still raises the dead (Ac 26:8)?
Please see my article at:
wordistrue.blogspot.com/2022/07/have-gifts-ceased.html
Agreed, many people do not see the miraculous in their ministries, and the logical conclusion is the miraculous has ceased. Never mind that other congregations continue to operate in them as God intended.
Hes 100% wrong and clearly denies many scriptures that prove him to be wrong
PHILIP WHO WASN'T AN APOSTLE DID MIRACLES. SO SPROUL IS WRONG!!
When you're so theological and so educated that you can't understand the true power of the holy spirit
Never in all my years of study in bible college have I ever considered that which is perfect to mean scripture, that to me is nonsense as scripture in its present form is not perfect. Signs and miracles happen continuously and God does not give the Holy Spirit by measure. There is only one that is perfect and that one is Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever. How could He say these signs will follow those who believe if there was a cut off date.
He went around with an oxygen hose which shows his denial of healing in Christ's atonement!!