Swiss 1851 Federal Carbine - Part 2 - The Ammo
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
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In part 1 we focused on the history of the 1851 carbine, this time we focus on the ammo since the Swiss made some "interesting" choices when it came to what sort of projectiles to use, seemingly following the whims of fashion in the ever changing world of mid 19th century ballistics, oh and we do some shooting!
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My type of content! Love it! Thanks Chap!
The mould should be waiting for you at your local post office 😊
@@thebotrchap And I already have it my hands!!! :) What an excellent piece of work! Thanks again! You are great! I can't wait to roll some cartridges for the compression bullets.
I appreciate the use of period correct Pritt Stick when making the cartridges
I inconveniently ran out of fish collagen glue, what a shame...🐟
There's a reason I really enjoy your workshop excursion content, Chap; it's always entertaining and educational. Never stop learning!
Excellent video as always. Your content is the main reason I became a patron.
I like the idea of a loading stop on the ramrod. It makes the part a bit harder (and thus more expensive) to make, but I'd say it definitely contributes to a slightly faster reload, and a more consistent one. Combine that with good bullet design, a fully-developed Pritchard-style cartridge, and proper load development during the trial phase, and you've basically gotten about as quick and efficient as a muzzle loading rifle is likely to get.
Great dive down the rabbit hole of muzzle loading, all the preparation and attention to repeating the exact process pre-supposes that the one most influential base is the barrel. It must be worn to some extent by the use I has been subject to. It would be interesting to subject it to a full micro inspection, measuring it with today's highly accurate tools . while you have achieved great results in your endeavours with this gun I wonder which of the many you possess had the least use and gives you the smallest groups ....I guess we will have to wait and see as you work your way through them . Great work 👍
At last my 1851 Swiss federal carbine bullet dimension worries are over .
Lovin all the workshop geeky detail's. Bullet types and detail's of the loading procedure s.
And of course the shooting itself.
Brilliant chappie really appreciate your videos.
What sort of velocity are we talking about here.
Looking forward to seeing the next episode thanx.
Chap, your attention to detail is admirable.
I did wonder how the 1850's Swiss did things, lots of practice I reckon.
Really enjoyed the first two episodes and looking forward to #3
The old geezers, what do they know ...enough. Very interesting series. Black powder alchemy at work.
Black-Suited Commander : The way you fight...!
Captain Harlock : Not by the rules, right! Exactly! That's the way a pirate fights!
[shoots the officer]
Captain Harlock : Never again come near any place where my flag flies!
You and I can be friends 👊
Went back through the early bullet/patch shooting end part of the video. I notice that the water element of the Wild system was not used. I believe it to be an inherent part of the concept and the dry patch is sized for a close, but not tight, fill of the bore but the water then makes the linen patch swell to tighten it all up. Might be worth trying full Wild on this? I shall be fascinated to see how you engineer matching rifling to pleating and will be exceedingly impressed. Cotton will stretch when wet so goes all floppy so of no use to Johannes’ system.
The cross patch has a long history in the Anglophone world and I have seen patch cutters of the ‘it it wiv an ‘ammer’ variety made in the 19th century: doubtless at vast cost. Most references are in the paper patch for conical period but cloth and leather are known. The well known Percy Tenantry Napoleonic Volunteer balls carried a pigskin leather cross patch on their round ball. ‘Volunteer’ in as much as you volunteered if you were a tenant of the Percy’s or did business with them and knew what was good for you…….. Infantry, artillery and cavalry with a nice line in wheeled amusettes. Quite the personal army.
I had indeed seen it referenced for round ball when playing with the Baker rifle but not seen it in combination with the conical.
I did mention that the Swiss didn't adopt fully adopt the Wild system, only certain parts and not the water element. As for trying it out, maybe, but I want to get it to work as per regulations sarge, i.e wrapped in it's cotton patch and lubed. One step at a time.
That first style of patched bullet was made for a completely differnt barrel profile. For the patch to work, the 1851 version has 8 deep grooves; for the 1854 compression bullet the rifling was changed to 4 much flatter grooves and the twist rate was also modified. Firing both bullets from the same rifle will always result in one of them failing.
Nope, the rifling was only changed in the Federal Stutzer from 1864 as I said in part 1 so after the introduction of the 1856 and 1863 bullet
@@thebotrchap Sorry you are of course right, I meant 1864 not 1854. Patches work completely different than expansion bullets, you will never get good accuracy from both in the same rifle.
@@ThePerfectRedStill nope, the 1864 Stutzer was introduced after the 1863 Buholzer and the 1864 never fully replaced the 1851 pattern, not very many were made and most were immediately converted to Milbank-Amsler. Both were in service at the same time. All the bullets had to work in the 1851 pattern.
@@thebotrchap This was not my point. If you have a given barrel profile, you can either shoot patched bullets or expansion types with good precision, but not both. That was my point. That all bullets "had to work" in the 1851 does not mean that they actually did. They could not.
@@ThePerfectRed I’m sorry but you are wrong. Please see CapnBall’s video on his 1851 in which both the patched and Buholzer work well.
Following your logic our rifles should shoot better with the patched bullet since they have the original 8 groove rifling, when in fact they clearly shoot the Buholzer better through that same original 8 groove barrel.
Huzzah for the Wild system. Know it well but I thought the water went down after the bullet was loaded? Linen swells upon getting wet so the water not only wet the bore ready for the patch to swipe as it comes out, but also caused the patch to swell and seal around the bullet. Hence he was particular about using linen.
Much enjoyed this video. I used the Wild system for a couple of years with a pistol and round ball. ie using linen patch and a squirt of water down the bore. Worked fine and helped confirm my status as a weird Anglais amongst my French shooting colleagues. Didn’t help with my rotten shooting though but nothing does bar using a Charlie G and a canister round.
The photo of the bore with the pleated patch around the RB is from my newly acquired Luzern Stutzer which I am convinced is designed to be loaded following the Wild system. The rifling flares out so that the pleats form automatically when you push the ball down. Ingenious! Now I need to find some good linen.
@@thebotrchap Thank you. I shall add that to the photographs I have shamelessly stolen from your video.
If the rifling is 8 grooves you could also experiment with cutting 8 "petals" in the patch instead of just pleats.
About the generous tolerances. Maybe its the usual swiss way of producing to higher tolerances than necessary. I stumbled over such cases time and again, although more from the 1950ies onward.
I think it was just realistic expectations. The barrels were being made and rifled by smiths in small shops all over the country and abroad. In that era there was no chance of all these barrels having uniform bore dimensions so they set a generous go-no go tolerance.
33:30 that's ok buddy happens to all of us.... if she complains about it, just tell her that it's not your fault that she didn't get there, she had the exact same amount of time that you did....
Maybe you can make a cross shaped patch from 2 strips of fabric layed out in a cross shape. Could be easier to dial in the width of the strips. Adapt your "patching tool" get them squared out.
Pre lubing the strips might also help...
Just some thoughts..
Crossed strips is definately the way forward. They could be overlayed on the muzzle before firing. The string is only there to hold the patch on during transport, it isn't shoved down bore.
@@thebotrchap You might get overlap that way and screw up the position of the bullet in the bore...
My OCD is acting up, I guess...
@@thebotrchap It looks like pretty coarse fabric. You could run a couple of stitches across the diagonal to keep the strips aligned. Would only ned to be an open-ended "tacking" stitch. Of course, that's yet more time manufacturing and not shooting
I am currently arguing with people commenting on another YT channel. Apparently it is claimed that putting your hand on top of the ramrod when seating the bullet is dangerous because a) the steel ram rod could cause a spark and set off the charge and b) there might be "smouldering embers" left after the last shot. The same type of expert thinks the slightest air gap between bullet and powder will cause the gun to become a pipe bomb.
ps, really enjoyed this video.
Ah, the type of person I like to keep at arms' length, said arm also holding a rifle... with a bayonet mounted. Do not engage!
I was taught (in the English Civil War Soc.) never to put my hand over the ramrod, just in case, and it does seem like a sensible H&S precaution. However it would be interesting to see some stats on how often a powder charge does go off "by itself", it may be so rare as to be not worth worrying about, although possibly more likely after a sustained bit of firing, which we tend not to do.
One would think that, since powder and ball are loaded separately, and the powder is generally not rammed home by itself, *if* there was to be an issue with premature ignition due to sparking or unburned embers, it would occur when the powder was poured down the barrel, not when the ball was rammed down on top of it.
In any case, ramrod sparking would only be an issue if one were, for some reason, to follow the powder charge down the bore with the ramrod. When ramming the bullet, there's no way a spark generated by a steel ramrod glancing off the bore is going to make it past the bullet to ignite the charge.
That said, when I was being tought to shoot a fiend's Hawken rifle many years ago, I was hold to blow down the bore after each shot to put out any embers before loading the next charge.
@@christopherreed4723The tip of the rod is actually brass. No sparks are coming off that.
I was also taught the blowing trick. I sometimes still do it.
I admire your persistence in testing the first style bullet, while the Swiss army just changed the bullet for one that was easier to use after a few years!
They persisted for about 5 years so it clearly worked, it also worked for CapnBall, just not for me....yet
Fair enough. Hope you sort it soon! Mind you, 5 years is the blink of an eye for changing ammo in the military. It took the British almost half a century to change from .303 to a rimless round! Lol
Great, thanks for that. Using a conversion table 4gm equals about 55 grains so first loads may have been a bit pokey. Are you going to try loading with loose cross patches?
And lastly what is the diameter of the Minie bullet for loading un patched. Thanks again, very instructive.
Measuring 4g of Swiss#5 and pouring it into a powder measure comes out at 60grain volumetric.
For the X patch I think I will indeed probably cut strips, lube them and lay them across the muzzle and push the bullet down on top.
Unpatched boolits are 10.4mm
@@thebotrchap Thanks I'll start looking for suitable bullets. Weight of bullets? I may have missed this in the presentation.
16:55 i was worried you had run out of tea. your (blue) mug had moved nearly out of shot.
Oooohhh you are going to get a strike from the all watchful tube police. You are showing people how to "manufacture ammunition"... Very interesting concept of a ram rod stop to seat the bullet at a uniform depth. And yes I am sure there were air gaps. Very neat rifle. Love the "Swiss" buttplate. Those cross patch bullets may be the ticket. I would try some with paper instead of cloth.
I wonder what the typical load out would have been for a Swiss soldier back then? How many pre loaded rounds would they have been mandated to carry?
60 cartridges was the standard loadout.
@@thebotrchap
Thanks 👍
ammo ? we don't need no stinkin ammo !
I wonder if a forming tool/die like that used for cupcake/muffin cups would help.
(edit:) Also; while I've sometimes the difference in the muzzle blast pattern, I'd never really understood before that it was because of fouling before your showing the effect it had at the target.
8:14 "Waffen Emmenthal." Have you any idea how it sounds weird to a cheese amateur?
Why?
A piece of well sharpened parmesan is a deadly weapon and you dont want to think about the area effect of lobbing in Chambertin.
@@voiceofraisin3778 You make a point, but there is no archeological or written trace of any attempt to sharpen Emmenthal, even Migros' low end.
Do you know what units the bullet drawing at 11:26 is dimensioned in? For a nominal 10.5 mm bore, 33.7 whatevers would seem to require an undue amount of effort to load.
They are in Linien (lines) written as III, equivalent to 3mm and Striche (stripes) written as IIII or IV, equivalent to 0.3mm.
@@thebotrchap Thank you. That led me to the Wikipedia article on "German units of measurement" which gave me a headache. As they say, the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
Matching up pleats in a patch, or anything for that matter, to the rifling, sounds like a metric pain in the ass. Neat concept but doesn't seem practical. Also, might just be my brand of tism, but the cross patches gave me a whole new perspective and the Swiss flag... a white cross patch on a blood red background... almost like they were saying "FAFO.... we're neutral for YOUR protection, not ours."
I agree, and so did the Swiss since the pleating idea wasn't used on the 1851 bullet but you can see it working in the photo at 4:14 in my precusor Cantonal Stutzer. The rifling flares out slightly at the muzzle and remarkebly the patch automatically pleats when you push the ball down. It won't work with the type of rifling in the 1851 so I would have to make a tool that replicate it, probably just a short tube with an 8-groove conical hole.
@@thebotrchap lol yeah I was wondering how long it took you to get that photo of the perfect pleats lol. Glad it wasn't as much of a pain as it looked.
1870s Pritt-stick?
I should be using "Kleister". Now the term is used for flour based wallpaper paste but back in the 1860s it would have been a collagen glue, probably fish based as was popular for book binding. I have my limits with regards to authenticity however 🙃
Very good sir, I sense that you have made much sacrifices to the black. Powder gods and appeased their wraith, they smile upon you but be warned they are fickle spirits😊 prone to insult
Your swiss German isn't bad
Al Go
I will accept old angry nerd lol
Nergasmic