A good balanced video. The only thing that I would add, is that Lord Mountbatten was massively culpable in the cancelling of this programme by undermining confidence in TSR2 by pushing the RN Buccaneer, which resulted in the cancellation of the Australian order and thus the financial viability of the whole programme. An understanding that it would have taken a minimum of 5 years of in service development to have reached the capability required (what we now know as Block releases) would have helped too.
Government "Unless all you different aircraft companies get together we won't give you any contracts". Companies "OK, we have merged from 17 companies to two". Government "Thanks, we are cancelling the contracts".
Looking at the performance verses the cost for the Arrow, it deserved to be cancelled. It was far more expensive than the F-4 Phantom and in many ways the Arrow's performance was inferior.
Likewise I would be living in a mansion, own several Rolls Royces & have my own personal harem if I had an unlimited supply of cash...but I don't, so it's just me & wifey in our little house with our Suzuki Celerio. Britain has caviar tastes but has to learn to live on a fish & chips budget.
I have the British government and the cancellation of the TSR2 to thank for a wonderful career in engineering: After a post graduate training scheme in avionics where I learned about integrated circuits and digital computers two years after my antiquated university degree ( no fees and full non repayable grant) which still concentrated on valves and not “new” transistors, I became so disillusioned with UK aviation industry, I emigrated and took my expensive training elsewhere. I returned to UK many years later, only to leave again when the UK government took away my European passport with its Brexit fiasco. So sad for a country that has (had) brilliant engineers but incompetent manager and corrupt ( or at best easily influenced) politicians.
A friend of my family was a test pilot in the middle part of the Cold War and was involved in the tests for repurposing the TSR-2's terrain following radar. I believe a set was fitted to a Blackburn Buccaneer - and he said it was fantastic to fly.
Great video. My father worked with Eliot Bros on the inertial navigation systems in TSR2. He did this after working on Blue Steel in Woomera, South Australia. He definitely saw it as a missed opportunity and the Australian decision to go with F111 as key to TSR2's ultimate failure.
It was incapable of meeting any of its mission goals. And just look at that tiny wing - shades of the F104, as the late great John Farley (who knew a bit about military aeroplanes) had noted.
18:53 Looks like a duck about to land on a pond. Those Olympus engines were a sooty thing, leaving dark trails even on the more refined Concorde - Was obviously made reliable for that roll, at least. The TSR2 landing gear fault 😳😳😳 OMG that flex!!!
The sooty exhaust probably didn't matter for military use. Have a look at old footage of B52s taking off. The ability of the Olympus engine to cruise supersonic for hours without using afterburn would have been invaluable in a military aircraft, at least until SAM missiles improved to the point that flying at altitude became too dangerous.
If Duncan Sandys mind had been on his ACTUAL job & less on when he was going to get his next gob job from The Duchess of Argyll, we might have avoided the debacle of the 1957 defence white paper!
It was bitter rivalry between RAF and the Navy. The Navy picked the Blackburn Buccaneer which served the Navy well, yet the RAF reject it. the govenment should told the RAF to take Buccaneer since it was in financial trouble at the time. Yet they green lighted TSR-2. i've got no doubt that Buccaneer with a 25-30% of financial backing of TSR-2, the Buccaneer could done thing why was meant to do. ironically the RAF was forced to take Buccaneer upon cancellation of TSR-2 with F-4 Phantom, no doubt because British govenment in debt to US govenment. Wasting money on the TSR-2 and the Concorde why the British aviation industry is ruined.
I'm sure the comment section will be a paragon of polite and well informed discourse, definitely not just rammed full of people expressing very strong feelings. :)
The TSR2 was a joke, just a massive wishlist of impossibly advanced technologies. If it had continued, the costs would have spiraled even further out of control and it would have been years late, if it had ever worked at all. The Wilson government was right to axe it.
The decision to cut all government spending took place in November 1964 during the first run on Sterling. This run on Sterling was caused by the trade deficit of £800 million (run up prior to the October General Election - and already prepared for by the Conservative government) coupled with the election of Labour and their November business as usual budget. TSR-2 was one of the items decided to be cut. The runs on Sterling continued with tge Labour government trying to prop up Sterling with foreign currency reserves (all spent),bulkion reserves (mostly spent) and loans from the IMF and the central banks of many countries (with no strings attached as we had already decided on spending cuts). The series of Sterling crises was only endec when Sterling was devalued by 14% against the US Dollar from an exchange rate of $2.80 to $2.40. This effective wastge final nail in the coffin of the F-111K. Increasing costs plus the reduced exchange rate made the F-111K more expensive than the cancelled TSR-2 would have been at the time of its cancellation.
Yes, can't help wondering if the TSR2 would have been better than the F111 in Vietnam, able to fly faster for longer. But the question is moot since the USA wasn't going to buy it anyway.
Was the supersonic element of TSR2 necessary once the Deterrent was to be Polaris? The real idiocy was to order F111 and Phantom as replacements when the Buccaneer and P18 VG-Lightning provided enough cover for future needs of RAF and RN.
Another victim of creative British enginering murdered by rusty old historic ( read bad ) British managmentstyle. Lots of UK companies were sadly ruined that way. British Railways, British Leyland, shipbuilding aviation etc. etc.
The project was basically sound, but, being Britain, making a hash of it was inevitable. They are still yapping about the 'empire', even though that was dead by 1930. I always say, the last year Britain 'worked' was 1929. Ever since it has been downhill and the bottom is not even in sight in 2024. On another note, after Brexit I moved every single penny and all my belongings to Ireland. I will watch from across the Irish channel how this ship sinks further down.
This is an intelligent review of an aircraft that awakens a lot of emotion amongst a certain generation.
A good balanced video. The only thing that I would add, is that Lord Mountbatten was massively culpable in the cancelling of this programme by undermining confidence in TSR2 by pushing the RN Buccaneer, which resulted in the cancellation of the Australian order and thus the financial viability of the whole programme. An understanding that it would have taken a minimum of 5 years of in service development to have reached the capability required (what we now know as Block releases) would have helped too.
Government "Unless all you different aircraft companies get together we won't give you any contracts".
Companies "OK, we have merged from 17 companies to two".
Government "Thanks, we are cancelling the contracts".
Reminds me a lot of the Canadian Avro Arrow cancellation
Looking at the performance verses the cost for the Arrow, it deserved to be cancelled. It was far more expensive than the F-4 Phantom and in many ways the Arrow's performance was inferior.
I agree
US government was involved in that cancellation.
XB-70, TSR-2 and F-108 Rapier are perfect examples of what aviation would have been if those aircrafts entered service.
Likewise I would be living in a mansion, own several Rolls Royces & have my own personal harem if I had an unlimited supply of cash...but I don't, so it's just me & wifey in our little house with our Suzuki Celerio. Britain has caviar tastes but has to learn to live on a fish & chips budget.
I've been fascinated with this plane since I was 12, thanks for making this video!
I have the British government and the cancellation of the TSR2 to thank for a wonderful career in engineering:
After a post graduate training scheme in avionics where I learned about integrated circuits and digital computers two years after my antiquated university degree ( no fees and full non repayable grant) which still concentrated on valves and not “new” transistors, I became so disillusioned with UK aviation industry, I emigrated and took my expensive training elsewhere.
I returned to UK many years later, only to leave again when the UK government took away my European passport with its Brexit fiasco.
So sad for a country that has (had) brilliant engineers but incompetent manager and corrupt ( or at best easily influenced) politicians.
A friend of my family was a test pilot in the middle part of the Cold War and was involved in the tests for repurposing the TSR-2's terrain following radar. I believe a set was fitted to a Blackburn Buccaneer - and he said it was fantastic to fly.
Great video. My father worked with Eliot Bros on the inertial navigation systems in TSR2. He did this after working on Blue Steel in Woomera, South Australia. He definitely saw it as a missed opportunity and the Australian decision to go with F111 as key to TSR2's ultimate failure.
Another fascinating video thank you
Again a history of an amazing aviation product told with great details and story. Thank you!
Fantastic video as always awesome detail
It was incapable of meeting any of its mission goals. And just look at that tiny wing - shades of the F104, as the late great John Farley (who knew a bit about military aeroplanes) had noted.
An aircraft way ahead of its time but came at a time when Britain was not in good way economically .
When a Vought F8 Crusader and BAC Lightning love each other very much... ❤
18:53 Looks like a duck about to land on a pond.
Those Olympus engines were a sooty thing, leaving dark trails even on the more refined Concorde - Was obviously made reliable for that roll, at least.
The TSR2 landing gear fault 😳😳😳
OMG that flex!!!
The sooty exhaust probably didn't matter for military use. Have a look at old footage of B52s taking off. The ability of the Olympus engine to cruise supersonic for hours without using afterburn would have been invaluable in a military aircraft, at least until SAM missiles improved to the point that flying at altitude became too dangerous.
The Olympus 593 as used in the production Concordes had re-designed burners and did not leave smoke trails, unlike the prototype Concordes.
Didnt Sands know missiles can be fired from planes?
If Duncan Sandys mind had been on his ACTUAL job & less on when he was going to get his next gob job from The Duchess of Argyll, we might have avoided the debacle of the 1957 defence white paper!
It was bitter rivalry between RAF and the Navy. The Navy picked the Blackburn Buccaneer which served the Navy well, yet the RAF reject it. the govenment should told the RAF to take Buccaneer since it was in financial trouble at the time. Yet they green lighted TSR-2. i've got no doubt that Buccaneer with a 25-30% of financial backing of TSR-2, the Buccaneer could done thing why was meant to do. ironically the RAF was forced to take Buccaneer upon cancellation of TSR-2 with F-4 Phantom, no doubt because British govenment in debt to US govenment. Wasting money on the TSR-2 and the Concorde why the British aviation industry is ruined.
Most interesting - thanks!
20:57 - It cannot be OVERSTATED
I'm sure the comment section will be a paragon of polite and well informed discourse, definitely not just rammed full of people expressing very strong feelings. :)
A flying Quasimodo 😸
Never heard of any FOR339, but I have heard of GOR339 short for General Operational Requirement 339. A version of this requirement led to the F-111.
What is max dry setting?
Max power without re-heat
Maximum thrust without afterburner.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 thank you
What if, F111 vs TSR2?
The TSR2 was a joke, just a massive wishlist of impossibly advanced technologies. If it had continued, the costs would have spiraled even further out of control and it would have been years late, if it had ever worked at all. The Wilson government was right to axe it.
Your experience of the project Mr highly informed?
What could have been...
The decision to cut all government spending took place in November 1964 during the first run on Sterling. This run on Sterling was caused by the trade deficit of £800 million (run up prior to the October General Election - and already prepared for by the Conservative government) coupled with the election of Labour and their November business as usual budget. TSR-2 was one of the items decided to be cut. The runs on Sterling continued with tge Labour government trying to prop up Sterling with foreign currency reserves (all spent),bulkion reserves (mostly spent) and loans from the IMF and the central banks of many countries (with no strings attached as we had already decided on spending cuts). The series of Sterling crises was only endec when Sterling was devalued by 14% against the US Dollar from an exchange rate of $2.80 to $2.40. This effective wastge final nail in the coffin of the F-111K. Increasing costs plus the reduced exchange rate made the F-111K more expensive than the cancelled TSR-2 would have been at the time of its cancellation.
So much unjustified hype around this plane. Even the specification was nowhere near the capability of the F-111 (look it up, folks!)
Yes, can't help wondering if the TSR2 would have been better than the F111 in Vietnam, able to fly faster for longer. But the question is moot since the USA wasn't going to buy it anyway.
It doesn't feel like its existence has been missed in any operational requirement since it was canned.
Never had a chance with the three Cs at work - cronyism, corruption and committees!
Was the supersonic element of TSR2 necessary once the Deterrent was to be Polaris? The real idiocy was to order F111 and Phantom as replacements when the Buccaneer and P18 VG-Lightning provided enough cover for future needs of RAF and RN.
Make a sentence using the following words:- Piss-up - Brewery - Couldn't - Organise.
Liebour mess everything up!
Another victim of creative British enginering murdered by rusty old historic ( read bad ) British managmentstyle.
Lots of UK companies were sadly ruined that way. British Railways, British Leyland, shipbuilding aviation etc. etc.
No wrecked by the RAF mismanagement
Beautiful bird😊
The project was basically sound, but, being Britain, making a hash of it was inevitable. They are still yapping about the 'empire', even though that was dead by 1930. I always say, the last year Britain 'worked' was 1929. Ever since it has been downhill and the bottom is not even in sight in 2024. On another note, after Brexit I moved every single penny and all my belongings to Ireland. I will watch from across the Irish channel how this ship sinks further down.
The f111 was a disaster.. fleets within fleets.. maintenance and availability was terrible.
Not a problem @ BAe Filton to service & modify though...................................DUH!!!!!!!!!!
Tornado rules.....it may be gone from R.A.F service but its not dead yet
It was a flop! DERA destroyed them!
@JohnSmith-ei2pz tell that to the German airforce...they LOVED it and STILL fly the E.C.R. variant....a variant unique to Germany
Beautiful Aircraft Horrible Project Management, But hey aT lEAst wE aReNT sPEakINg gERmAn 🤡
Royal family do so!