This really helped me in my healing. Thank you. Part of spiritual abuse is the way it causes you to be terrified of God. I was a child victim, and powerful men speaking for God makes a child feel like they ARE god. I had nightmares and terrors of God for years. Your words are more comforting than you know. It actually made me cry, you helped me see God as kind rather than blaming and terrifying me. I struggle with that a lot. I know there are many others like me. God bless you. I feel like this IHOP thing is God calling many of his scared little lambs like me out of hiding by raising up some defenders.
Well said. For the past 2+ years I've been receiving prophetic dreams about judgment coming to the church. (I appreciate what you said about that as well.) If I understand my dreams correctly, what's happening at ihopkc is only the beginning. It has to happen. There is unspeakable evil hidden in many of our churches.
I am 61 years old, and in the 33 years I have been attending church, you are the 2nd person I have heard correctly read, Matthew 5: 23. I studied it years ago because of wrongful teaching. My wife was raised in sexual abuse, and she felt helpless because idiots taught this wrong, I had a hard time believing that God would require the victim to make things right, so I studied and found the truth. I pointed this truth to a Sunday school teacher. His response was that it couldn't be done. So I told him that the Bible said it could be done.
Thank you so much. I wish ELT would all listed to this. Indeed the advocates are are as Nathan, you make this so clear! God Bless you. It is a mess here on base. I joined staff in 2002, and turned in my resignation this month. I will continue to pray because because Jesus Himself, who is the true leader of the prayer movement, is, for the Glory of His Name, causing many lovers of truth, to partner with Him, to bring forth all that cannot be hidden! He has seen it all, and so will the world. This is the mercy of God! Mercy trumps over judgement….and when needed at times, even through it! Jesus is Lord of ALL
Such excellent analysis of scripture re this situation (and all cases of SA). I think pastors will continue to misuse scripture in these cases because they can Lord their so-called blbilical "understanding" over those who are "under their authority." That's why the former ELT leaders are so important in this case. You can't usually get other leaders to stand up against another powerful leader (as in the case Johnny Enlow spoke of recently), but Jane Doe at least has several, thank the Lord.
Let's keep in mind the context for 1 Tim 5:19. " Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses." Timothy is in training for his Apostleship. Paul had him appointing elders, enforcing church discipline on erring elders, and teaching good doctrine, etc. Historically some sources (Catholic) call him a Bishop (a word not found in the NIV) but in fact he became an Apostle. Jump forward to today and we have the American Protestant church run by pastors with nobody to hold them accountable except his (often) hand-picked board of elders. Functionally most churches place the responsibilities of Apostle and Prophet (Eph 4:11) on the shoulders of the Pastor. No wonder Pastors burn out. No wonder Pastors go astray. Authoritarianism creeps into the pulpit because absolute power corrupts absolutely. Don't expect a scriptural result after ignoring scripture.
I've often seen Matthew 18 misused as well to stop people from disagreeing with publicly taught error or heresy. Matthew 18 is about personal offence. For example, long ago Creflo Dollar was teaching "You can't get healing or deliverance or any other blessing in the word of God except through the tithe" and "If you take the time to tithe and tithe correctly, it's impossible to go to hell, because the tithe will keep you in heaven. The tithe will keep you in God's presence." But people would say "You haven't gone to him personally" if you pointed out the error. The same over a guy teaching you are a spiritual orphan and don't have any inheritance if you don't have a person who is your spiritual father. (We receive the spirit of adoption when we are born again and our inheritance is through God's fatherhood.) The same over a guy teaching "If you want to receive my anointing and be a part of this ministry, you must eat my flesh and drink my blood." (We only eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus, and Christianity is not about a person's anointing or ministry. It is about being servants of Jesus and him expressing his ministry through us.) In so many of these cases, almost everyone says "Have you talked to him personally? Matthew 18." No. The epistles publicly call out false doctrine in many places. Galatians, Jude, 2nd Peter, Titus, Timothy....
Thank you! In general SA is wrong and the people who are in Church are held in higher standards . It’s easy to push people aside and quote scripture but there will always be a day where we will be standing face to face with the WORD Himself. Iam so sorry for the victims. 😢
Thank you, Jon. This is about the second or third of your videos that I’ve watched regarding the allegations against Mike Bickle. I appreciate your talks because they have helped to articulate my own thoughts. Interestingly enough, on December 1st, Ken Fish of Orbis Ministries called on folks to join him on an immediate 21-day fast pertaining to Israel and other events in the world/church. I don’t believe he specifically referenced what was going on at IHOPKC then. However, in an email update on Dec 17th regarding the “Israel fast“, this is what he said about IHOPKC. “With that controversy dominating their attention, and also out of concern their actions could be misconstrued as deflecting away from their own crisis, IHOP has not called for a fast during the current conflict in Gaza. With that being the case, Orbis has called for a fast, together with a number of key leaders in the body of Christ.” That was so good for me to read! Although I had joined in on the “Israel fast” from the beginning, I cared about but wasn’t particularly drawn to praying over the crisis in Israel. But I felt a strong burden and sorrowed over the allegations against Mike Bickle, his posture as revealed in his emails, and IHOPKC’s response. I know a little about Mike Bickle and have good friends who have been to Kansas City, but I can’t say that I’ve even read one of his books or listened to a complete message. However, in my childhood and later young adult years, I attended FOUR (connected) fellowships that experienced incredibly strong presence-of-God manifestations AND also fell prey to SA with moral failures with their devastating effects. I know firsthand the atmosphere in which the lines drawn between spiritual, emotional, and, unfortunately, physical intimacy get blurred then crossed.
This clever twisting of Matthew 18 seems to be a popular way of manipulating people into silence. I approached a senior pastor by a letter (which I hand delivered to his front door). I never received any kind of response, re what I said about his inappropriate behaviour towards me, and I don't expect to receive any kind of genuine apology. I've been on the Christian scene for 39 years now, I'm 61, and I'm familiar with some of the tricks of the trade, so to speak. I've concluded that some Christian leaders prefer a truth which suits them, and they have skillfully crafted a sophisticated way of bringing their church members into submission like this, via fear, and ongoing compliance. It's like a drama, played out over and over. But it doesn't impress or deceive me any more. Like the bird I see their traps - and just fly on.
Please pray and see from the eyes of God. Yet, Mike was wrong about 20 plus years ago but is he still wrong or sinful today? If no, please let him go and move on. I am a major warning prophet and an apostle like Apostle Paul. Please read carefully. Please understand that it is true that we must obey the Bible including Matthew 18:15-17 for peacemaking (reconciliation). I have been praying for IHOPKC. Remember that we need evidence, witnesses to accuse a pastor or a minister (1 Timothy 5:19,20)! If not, the case in many years ago 20+ should be closed! We must understand also that the prophecy and the revelation of the truth from the Holy Spirit is needed for judgment against a pastor or a minister! Jane Doe was also responsible for this sin! Why she allowed it from the beginning? How didn't she voice out at the time of this sinful act? Please be just!
Wow! That is almost exactly what Joseph Smith said. SMH. And yes, this is such fake repentance. He thinks you can just press "delete" and everything is erased. It's just mind-boggling.
Brian Houston and Ted Haggard have started thier own church. Mike probably will too. When people fall in love with talent and signs wonders and prophecy they will continue to follow fallen leaders. 😳 Preaching talent can lead people blind.
Excellent teaching. Now here's another obscure-and a little weird-angle to consider: "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins." (Exod22:16) Forget the Old Testament details, they're no longer relevant in the NT, but I'm seeing a PRINCIPLE here. A principle of a male who is not intimidated representing the wronged female and demanding justice on her behalf.
the problem is the definition of repentance ... when a person repent then the person turn away from the sin that he did ... never to do it again ... like you said that person need to go to the other person who he/she did the wrong to and ask for forgiveness ... saying sorry without any action is not enough ... he did not repent ... how do we know ... because he did the same to other women ... that make it more than one accuser ... let not forget that he prophesied that he was going to married that woman and his prophecy did not nor will come true ... and a false prophet is a wolf in sheep clothing ... and those who defend the sinner are blind who is following the blind teacher and both will fall in the ditch ... they may love him but you can not judge out of emotion ... you have to use logic ... god loves everyone but he have to judge everyone for their choices they take ... we are judge by the action we take of good and evil ... if we repent or turn away from the evil we did then god will blot out the evil we did but if we do not repent or turn away from the evil we did then he will blot out the good we did ... Ezekiel 18
Your podcasts have helped me immensely and especially the meekness of your spirit. It’s gotten so very ugly and the vitriol, anger and accusations are anything but Christ like. Some appear boastful, arrogant and full of pride as they attack every attempt put forth by Eric Voltz representing IHOP. After listening to your previous podcast concerning the prophecies and dreams you and others received, it’s given me hope that something good could come from the turmoil. It still feels like something doesn’t feel right in the way everything has been presented thus far. When the allegations were first made several of the women whose names were used made it clear their name had been used under false pretenses. I think this cast doubt on the entire motive of the ones representing the women. When it became public that she experienced the abuse when she was 19 and Mike was 42, and that she continued to work in the ministry for twenty more years, it didn’t make sense. Why now? What was her motivation to go public after 20 years? The possibility that she could have had other motives is troubling. There were allegations made that she had unsuccessfully applied for a position within the IHOP university and was passed over. Is it possible that the enemy could have used her to completely undermine and destroy IHOP? Since there is no possible way of knowing the true intent of her heart, where does that leave everyone that’s gotten caught up in this situation? It’s dividing fellow believers in the Christian community and the spiritual attacks seem to be coming more from the victims side than those that are still hoping for the possibility of a more peaceful and positive solution. I know God is the one that will get the final say, but to see brothers and sisters reacting in the flesh is so disheartening.
That was exactly my thinking until I read the emails and then the "confession." That is what tipped the scales the other direction for me and it made me so sad.
Often with PTSD, victims bury it to survive, and things come rushing back to the surface when a trigger occurs. Jane Doe said she was triggered by something she read or heard about Bill Cosby. PTSD is weird that way. Victims also often come forward when they finally feel it's safe to do so. She may have felt no one would believe her before, or she might have been just trying to forget it. As for staying in the ministry that abused her, there is a very complex dynamic with abuse, which is why you see battered wives that refuse to leave their abusive husband even though she is in danger and everyone is begging her to leave. The abuser is constantly telling her she won't survive without him, that she's worthless, that it's her fault, that she deserves it, or whatever lines he uses to keep her compliant. Hope that helps a little.
Using scripture to gaslight victims must have significant repercussions from on high. Especially from church leaders. I was just reading James’ admonition to not be a teacher due to the harsher judgement from our true Judge. Yeah. Not interested in that role.
I have no clue who is right or wrong in this IHOPKC situation. One thing I know. If you have been abused, you have been wronged. If you have made unjust accusations, you are wrong. God knows every situation perfectly and He will vindicate. Let the IHOPKC leadership deal with the situation. Everyone else stop making videos. The aim should not be to victimise anyone but to pray that God bring the guilty party/parties to deep, genuine repentance. Also, God alone can bring healing if anyone has been abused. Pray and fast, even, for repentance or healing. But don’t make a video on it! You have already lost my respect.
This really helped me in my healing. Thank you. Part of spiritual abuse is the way it causes you to be terrified of God. I was a child victim, and powerful men speaking for God makes a child feel like they ARE god. I had nightmares and terrors of God for years. Your words are more comforting than you know. It actually made me cry, you helped me see God as kind rather than blaming and terrifying me. I struggle with that a lot. I know there are many others like me. God bless you. I feel like this IHOP thing is God calling many of his scared little lambs like me out of hiding by raising up some defenders.
Thank you for this. Very insightful and helpful.
Well said.
For the past 2+ years I've been receiving prophetic dreams about judgment coming to the church. (I appreciate what you said about that as well.) If I understand my dreams correctly, what's happening at ihopkc is only the beginning. It has to happen. There is unspeakable evil hidden in many of our churches.
I am 61 years old, and in the 33 years I have been attending church, you are the 2nd person I have heard correctly read, Matthew 5: 23. I studied it years ago because of wrongful teaching. My wife was raised in sexual abuse, and she felt helpless because idiots taught this wrong, I had a hard time believing that God would require the victim to make things right, so I studied and found the truth. I pointed this truth to a Sunday school teacher. His response was that it couldn't be done. So I told him that the Bible said it could be done.
I read this post before I posted mine, and my post which was posted after this , comes after. I have even less trust in this video!
I don’t know you but this is the BEST breakdown on this subject. Thankyou.
Great word brother pastor I like how you bring out the onus is on the offender not the offended
This speaks directly into a situation I'm dealing with, thank you 🙏
Thank you so much. I wish ELT would all listed to this. Indeed the advocates are are as Nathan, you make this so clear! God Bless you. It is a mess here on base. I joined staff in 2002, and turned in my resignation this month. I will continue to pray because because Jesus Himself, who is the true leader of the prayer movement, is, for the Glory of His Name, causing many lovers of truth, to partner with Him, to bring forth all that cannot be hidden! He has seen it all, and so will the world. This is the mercy of God! Mercy trumps over judgement….and when needed at times, even through it! Jesus is Lord of ALL
Thank you for your explanation.
Such excellent analysis of scripture re this situation (and all cases of SA). I think pastors will continue to misuse scripture in these cases because they can Lord their so-called blbilical "understanding" over those who are "under their authority." That's why the former ELT leaders are so important in this case. You can't usually get other leaders to stand up against another powerful leader (as in the case Johnny Enlow spoke of recently), but Jane Doe at least has several, thank the Lord.
Amen ! Thank you, God bless you! 🙏
Thank you for this. It was definitely needed. People quote chunks of Scripture like buzz words.
Let's keep in mind the context for 1 Tim 5:19. " Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses." Timothy is in training for his Apostleship. Paul had him appointing elders, enforcing church discipline on erring elders, and teaching good doctrine, etc. Historically some sources (Catholic) call him a Bishop (a word not found in the NIV) but in fact he became an Apostle. Jump forward to today and we have the American Protestant church run by pastors with nobody to hold them accountable except his (often) hand-picked board of elders. Functionally most churches place the responsibilities of Apostle and Prophet (Eph 4:11) on the shoulders of the Pastor. No wonder Pastors burn out. No wonder Pastors go astray. Authoritarianism creeps into the pulpit because absolute power corrupts absolutely. Don't expect a scriptural result after ignoring scripture.
Excellent exegesis thank you
We can't hide anything from a Holy God.
I've often seen Matthew 18 misused as well to stop people from disagreeing with publicly taught error or heresy. Matthew 18 is about personal offence. For example, long ago Creflo Dollar was teaching "You can't get healing or deliverance or any other blessing in the word of God except through the tithe" and "If you take the time to tithe and tithe correctly, it's impossible to go to hell, because the tithe will keep you in heaven. The tithe will keep you in God's presence." But people would say "You haven't gone to him personally" if you pointed out the error.
The same over a guy teaching you are a spiritual orphan and don't have any inheritance if you don't have a person who is your spiritual father. (We receive the spirit of adoption when we are born again and our inheritance is through God's fatherhood.)
The same over a guy teaching "If you want to receive my anointing and be a part of this ministry, you must eat my flesh and drink my blood." (We only eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus, and Christianity is not about a person's anointing or ministry. It is about being servants of Jesus and him expressing his ministry through us.)
In so many of these cases, almost everyone says "Have you talked to him personally? Matthew 18." No. The epistles publicly call out false doctrine in many places. Galatians, Jude, 2nd Peter, Titus, Timothy....
Well done.
Thank you! In general SA is wrong and the people who are in Church are held in higher standards . It’s easy to push people aside and quote scripture but there will always be a day where we will be standing face to face with the WORD Himself. Iam so sorry for the victims. 😢
Love your comment! Agree totally. I am 69 yearsyoung
Thank you, Jon. This is about the second or third of your videos that I’ve watched regarding the allegations against Mike Bickle. I appreciate your talks because they have helped to articulate my own thoughts.
Interestingly enough, on December 1st, Ken Fish of Orbis Ministries called on folks to join him on an immediate 21-day fast pertaining to Israel and other events in the world/church. I don’t believe he specifically referenced what was going on at IHOPKC then.
However, in an email update on Dec 17th regarding the “Israel fast“, this is what he said about IHOPKC.
“With that controversy dominating their attention, and also out of concern their actions could be misconstrued as deflecting away from their own crisis, IHOP has not called for a fast during the current conflict in Gaza. With that being the case, Orbis has called for a fast, together with a number of key leaders in the body of Christ.”
That was so good for me to read! Although I had joined in on the “Israel fast” from the beginning, I cared about but wasn’t particularly drawn to praying over the crisis in Israel. But I felt a strong burden and sorrowed over the allegations against Mike Bickle, his posture as revealed in his emails, and IHOPKC’s response.
I know a little about Mike Bickle and have good friends who have been to Kansas City, but I can’t say that I’ve even read one of his books or listened to a complete message. However, in my childhood and later young adult years, I attended FOUR (connected) fellowships that experienced incredibly strong presence-of-God manifestations AND also fell prey to SA with moral failures with their devastating effects. I know firsthand the atmosphere in which the lines drawn between spiritual, emotional, and, unfortunately, physical intimacy get blurred then crossed.
This clever twisting of Matthew 18 seems to be a popular way of manipulating people into silence. I approached a senior pastor by a letter (which I hand delivered to his front door). I never received any kind of response, re what I said about his inappropriate behaviour towards me, and I don't expect to receive any kind of genuine apology. I've been on the Christian scene for 39 years now, I'm 61, and I'm familiar with some of the tricks of the trade, so to speak. I've concluded that some Christian leaders prefer a truth which suits them, and they have skillfully crafted a sophisticated way of bringing their church members into submission like this, via fear, and ongoing compliance. It's like a drama, played out over and over. But it doesn't impress or deceive me any more. Like the bird I see their traps - and just fly on.
Please pray and see from the eyes of God. Yet, Mike was wrong about 20 plus years ago but is he still wrong or sinful today? If no, please let him go and move on. I am a major warning prophet and an apostle like Apostle Paul. Please read carefully. Please understand that it is true that we must obey the Bible including Matthew 18:15-17 for peacemaking (reconciliation). I have been praying for IHOPKC. Remember that we need evidence, witnesses to accuse a pastor or a minister (1 Timothy 5:19,20)! If not, the case in many years ago 20+ should be closed! We must understand also that the prophecy and the revelation of the truth from the Holy Spirit is needed for judgment against a pastor or a minister! Jane Doe was also responsible for this sin! Why she allowed it from the beginning? How didn't she voice out at the time of this sinful act? Please be just!
Wow! That is almost exactly what Joseph Smith said. SMH.
And yes, this is such fake repentance. He thinks you can just press "delete" and everything is erased. It's just mind-boggling.
Brian Houston and Ted Haggard have started thier own church. Mike probably will too. When people fall in love with talent and signs wonders and prophecy they will continue to follow fallen leaders. 😳 Preaching talent can lead people blind.
Excellent teaching. Now here's another obscure-and a little weird-angle to consider: "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins." (Exod22:16) Forget the Old Testament details, they're no longer relevant in the NT, but I'm seeing a PRINCIPLE here. A principle of a male who is not intimidated representing the wronged female and demanding justice on her behalf.
Interesting
the problem is the definition of repentance ... when a person repent then the person turn away from the sin that he did ... never to do it again ... like you said that person need to go to the other person who he/she did the wrong to and ask for forgiveness ... saying sorry without any action is not enough ... he did not repent ... how do we know ... because he did the same to other women ... that make it more than one accuser ... let not forget that he prophesied that he was going to married that woman and his prophecy did not nor will come true ... and a false prophet is a wolf in sheep clothing ... and those who defend the sinner are blind who is following the blind teacher and both will fall in the ditch ... they may love him but you can not judge out of emotion ... you have to use logic ... god loves everyone but he have to judge everyone for their choices they take ... we are judge by the action we take of good and evil ... if we repent or turn away from the evil we did then god will blot out the evil we did but if we do not repent or turn away from the evil we did then he will blot out the good we did ... Ezekiel 18
Your podcasts have helped me immensely and especially the meekness of your spirit. It’s gotten so very ugly and the vitriol, anger and accusations are anything but Christ like. Some appear boastful, arrogant and full of pride as they attack every attempt put forth by Eric Voltz representing IHOP. After listening to your previous podcast concerning the prophecies and dreams you and others received, it’s given me hope that something good could come from the turmoil.
It still feels like something doesn’t feel right in the way everything has been presented thus far. When the allegations were first made several of the women whose names were used made it clear their name had been used under false pretenses. I think this cast doubt on the entire motive of the ones representing the women. When it became public that she experienced the abuse when she was 19 and Mike was 42, and that she continued to work in the ministry for twenty more years, it didn’t make sense. Why now? What was her motivation to go public after 20 years? The possibility that she could have had other motives is troubling. There were allegations made that she had unsuccessfully applied for a position within the IHOP university and was passed over. Is it possible that the enemy could have used her to completely undermine and destroy IHOP? Since there is no possible way of knowing the true intent of her heart, where does that leave everyone that’s gotten caught up in this situation? It’s dividing fellow believers in the Christian community and the spiritual attacks seem to be coming more from the victims side than those that are still hoping for the possibility of a more peaceful and positive solution.
I know God is the one that will get the final say, but to see brothers and sisters reacting in the flesh is so disheartening.
That was exactly my thinking until I read the emails and then the "confession." That is what tipped the scales the other direction for me and it made me so sad.
Often with PTSD, victims bury it to survive, and things come rushing back to the surface when a trigger occurs. Jane Doe said she was triggered by something she read or heard about Bill Cosby. PTSD is weird that way. Victims also often come forward when they finally feel it's safe to do so. She may have felt no one would believe her before, or she might have been just trying to forget it. As for staying in the ministry that abused her, there is a very complex dynamic with abuse, which is why you see battered wives that refuse to leave their abusive husband even though she is in danger and everyone is begging her to leave. The abuser is constantly telling her she won't survive without him, that she's worthless, that it's her fault, that she deserves it, or whatever lines he uses to keep her compliant.
Hope that helps a little.
Using scripture to gaslight victims must have significant repercussions from on high. Especially from church leaders. I was just reading James’ admonition to not be a teacher due to the harsher judgement from our true Judge. Yeah. Not interested in that role.
I have no clue who is right or wrong in this IHOPKC situation. One thing I know. If you have been abused, you have been wronged. If you have made unjust accusations, you are wrong. God knows every situation perfectly and He will vindicate. Let the IHOPKC leadership deal with the situation. Everyone else stop making videos. The aim should not be to victimise anyone but to pray that God bring the guilty party/parties to deep, genuine repentance. Also, God alone can bring healing if anyone has been abused. Pray and fast, even, for repentance or healing. But don’t make a video on it! You have already lost my respect.