Plus you can use the restroom and have a bite to eat while the car charges. Generally, the human blob behind the wheel needs a break before the car does.
@@tatata1543 What does it matter, if the human behind the wheel needs a break before the car anyway, and the car is back up to 80 percent state of charge by the time the driver is done with their break?
@@tatata1543 typically. But I drive quite a bit daily. I think on that 500 mile trip I stopped three times to charge for about 15 minutes each time. Long enough to use the restroom and get a drink. But I haven’t stopped once since then. For in town driving it’s working well for me.
Petrol heads never seem to see the downside of their dirty fuel, lines of diesel spilled on roads, tankers spilling oil into the sea, deep water horizon, exploding oil refineries etc. fossil fuels don't start polluting at the pump
And evs pollute before they are ever an auto. Child labour mining rare earth minerals, to leveling and filtering entire mountain ranges. Part of the problem is the sanctimonious dreggs complaining of the evils of petrol. Get over yourselves
They don't even understand that 99.9% of EV owners already had an ICE vehicle and know 100% how it is to own and drive one, so literally 99 out of 100 talking points are completely meaningless. "my gas car this, my gas car that, blablabla" As if they would expose some new kind of thing that you haven't heard before....
@@Tschacki_QuackiExactly. I have the self same issue having switched to a plant based diet 5 years ago. People who have never tried eating plant based and done zero research telling me what it is likely to happen to me at some future date and then telling me what I am missing…….as if I didn’t eat meat, eggs and dairy all of my life. It’s just gaslighting.
I've driven with a tesla model Y in Iceland in the winter and had no problems, firstly it doesn't get all that cold on the coast where most people live, the coldest I experienced was -13 Celsius Secondly you can never drive all that fast or really anything over 90kmh and with fast chargers all around the island, which we only actually had to use ones it was the easiest thing ever
We visited Iceland for the first time this April. So many EVs, and so many Teslas among them. I ordered my first EV, a Tesla Model 3 a month later back home in England. Loving it so far, and saving an insane amount of money using cheap overnight charging compared to expensive petrol.
The coal fired power station argument is a classic argument: so to debunk it, here are my calculations for charging my Tesla purely from coal. I calculated the CO2 emissions for a Tesla Model 3 traveling 100 km using electricity from coal-fired power stations in Queensland, Australia. 1. Energy consumption for 100 km: - The Tesla Model 3 uses 125 Wh per km. - For 100 km: 125 Wh/km * 100 km = 12,500 Wh = 12.5 kWh. 2. CO2 emissions factor for coal-fired power stations in Queensland is approximately 0.81 kg CO2-e/kWh (CO2 equivalent per kilowatt-hour). 3. Total CO2 emissions: 12.5 kWh * 0.81 kg CO2-e/kWh = 10.125 kg CO2-e. A typical mid-sized ICE car at 9.5 liters per 100 km emits 2.31 kg CO2 per liter x 9.5 = 21.95 kg of CO2. The Tesla saves over 11.8 kg of CO2. So, even before adding renewables into the mix, over 50% has been reduced.
This is all BS. We have private jets putting out more CO2 in one flight than 1000's of gas cars do in their entire lifetime, both China and India are still deploying coal powered power plants which tells me they know this is BS also but they give lip service to it in order to sell "green" products to those dumb enough to believe this stuff. Buy whatever you think is best for you and your family because whatever you decide is not going to change anything one iota.
The energy required to manufacture EVs batteries is missing from the calculation. Tesla claimed their Model 3's battery is designed to last 360,000 miles (or about 580,000 km) for the standard range before replacement. Even if that bit of energy is added to the calculation, the EVs still produce far less CO2 as a whole.
After leasing a Model Y for myself for work in March, my wife begged me to replace her 2010 Prius with the now used 2021 Model 3. The cost per mile is actually a wash as the Prius was pretty efficient and the insurance only went up a little bit with the new car. ANY newer car would have risen the insurance costs, to be fair. However, the fun and convenience factor for her really makes the difference with the Model 3 that she would not experience with a similar $25k car. If she got a comparable Camry, Accord, or even a 3 Series, she would not experience the convenience of charging at home, FSD, or linear acceleration the Model 3 offers. The ONLY thing we might miss out on is the Toyota reliability which we’ll find out over time.
I’d put my money on the Tesla reliability. I’m driving a 2015 S - needs some scratches fixed, orig brk pads, 3rd set of tires 110k miles alignment done door handle repairs…. All drivetrain stuff is perfect
Joe Rogan knows exactly what he’s doing. If he used logic and data, he wouldn’t have a podcast. Being a provocateur is profitable. Maybe he should take Jay leno’s approach: “Horses didn’t go away after the automobile. Increase the use of electric transport, and you can save all those unique cars for weekends and pleasure.” On the environment side of things, I’m sure he would prefer to breathe than to exist in a toxic environment. Just sayin’
you give him too much credit. I think he's just not that smart. Like he's obviously got some skills - he runs a business and does stand up comedy. But he just isn't book smart.
Totally agree. And then there is our current government that has openly stated they won't listen to experts and will just do what the hell they want anyway.
My Tesla Model 3 rwd just had its second birthday. It has already saved me over $7k in fuel costs. Cost to own is one of the best parts of owning an EV.
But you're sinking that economy in your monthly payments. I save about $300/month in gas, but pay 300 more per month. Still, I'm going to be finished with my payments in about 2 years. Meaning from there on, it's all savings.
@@jaymac4448 Dude, I got a Model 3 Dual motor over 5 years ago. All in all, it costed me the price of an audi a4. What I said is totally my reality. A cheap gas car still cost way less than an EV. Yes, Total cost of ownership is already beaten. But there is still way to go.
I really appreciate you doing these videos. A lot of UA-camrs, even some of them who have EV channels, seem to be bent on spreading misinformation and undermining EV adoption. I’ve been driving EVsfor over 12 years now and love them. Especially as a daily driver, they cannot be beat.
The grid already has enough capacity for EVs. There is far more than 30% excess capacity now in off-peak capacity, which is when EVs charge. Data centers are a whole different subject!
@mrallelectriccarlunacy AI, crypto and data centers in general are tge threat to the grid. Their loads are 24/7 and unbelievably high. Their load already exceeds most existing generation capacity. Utilities are refusing to connect to new data centers because they don't have the capacity.
@@SigFigNewton EVs don't charge when you plug them in, owners program them to charge when the "super off-peak" rates start later in the evening. Any utility that doesn't have these off-peak rates yet can implement them if needed.
Mandates from government for seat belts, speed limits, driving under the influence, vehicle safety checks. Sometimes mandates are required to protect people from themselves....
12:37 - To be fair, if the timelines were determined by the scientists we'd have been driving EV's much sooner. IMO politicians have just been putting it off for as long as they could and kinda painted themselves into a corner not wanting to be the party to set the targets as it would be unpopular.
Norway used to have two electric car brand, Buddy and Think so no tax on these cars actually worked as a type of protectionist policy until 2009 when the imiev launched. So I think the lack of ICE car manufacturing in Norway, pressure from activists and EV manufacturing laid the groundwork for Norwegian EV policy.
If we are growing the grid by 6% because of those things plus population growth then the 30% needed for EV's are in addition to our current growth so Ben is wrong in the vid.
@11:29 - "Takes too long to charge" I think Joe was the first one to convince me of that argument being invalid a few years ago. There's 0% chance he didn't just take on a few new "sponsors".
He’s talking here with a real gearhead. He is someone who actually “enjoys“ driving. Most people don’t care about that and don’t really care how their wheels are turned just as long as they get to where they need to go.
I am not sure why people are not called out when they say EV's are as bad as gas cars because of dirty fuels that make electricity. All of that gasoline requires electricity to pump out of the ground, then move it through pipelines, and refine it. Why is all of that energy not part of the pollution comparison on oil's side of the scale? EV's take the energy directly from the power grid. Oil takes it too. What ever the concerns we have about electricity generation, it is an additional problem for oil as well.
Very simple, the price of the gas on the pumb already indicated all the cost included, not about the their real value. for driving the same distance, electricity cost is only 10% of gas cost.
There are such incredible statistics now on EVs such that if more of the public was aware of the stats like cost to own, more would consider having one. Most people think EVs start on fire easily, but they don't. They are 60 times LESS likely to start on fire than ICE vehicles. They are a lot harder to put out, but also not entirely. They have fire blankets already today that you can see videos that put the fire under control very quickly so they can be put to a lot easier than just not using the blanket. Super simple and super simple solution that 2 firefighters can handle. Fast charging does very little if anything to dilute battery life - all indications are showing that. We already know that the average battery will have 85% life left at 200K miles, which is incredible, and that is getting better all the time. CATL has some crazy batteries coming out that dramatically improve that stat and batteries charge to 80% in like 12 minutes now on a fast charger... and always improving Tesla is one of the safest vehicles on the road statistically... very, very safe. So much disinformation or lack of information out there
So we can not under any circumstances take away someone's rights, even if that "right" harms us all? Rights like CO2 emissions, lead in gasoline, water pipes and paint, CFCs in refrigeration units, asbestos in construction, widespread use of DDT and other toxic and/or dangerous materials we once used but learned the dangers of. You sure your "right" to continue to do your small part in the emission of CO2 just because it is a time-honored tradition and is sacred on the altar of "vroom-vroom --- screech" in a loud, throbbing sports car cannot be infringed? So much for "following the data..."t
Some ask why are there incentives for evs, why are we getting money to buy them, I asked why are you not paying more for polluting common including CO2 emissions, you're welcome
I actually reduced my energy consumption. My power bill crept up to $300 and I had a Tesla since 21 with little increase in my power bill. it was around $200 about 5 years ago . So my HVAC went out and I went to minisplits then changed from an instant on electric water heater , that had saved me about $20 a month when installed. I went with a heat pump water heater and between those two things I was using so much LESS power I got my bill back to that $200 mark. As things improve and old appliances are replaced less and less power will be used offsetting the power consumed by EVs.
I go with the arrangement, if EVs and gas vehicles are a wash, then isn't an Ebike 100 times better? They agree and say they'll never do that, completely missing the fact (or not caring) that they are going to do what they want even if it's the worse choice.
Well this is the beauty of the internet. You learn new facts every day. Now I won’t feel guilty when my sausage fingers drop an oil plug too soon and smear the pavement with a qt or two of 10K mile burnt oil.
It's amazing how almost every EV proponent I talk to is against government mandates. The only ones asking for this are legacy auto, because they can't get their 💩 together and build an affordable EV that they can make a profit on.
Government intervention is actually hurting the EV industry by creating resentment from people who don't want to be told what to do with their $$, so everyone should be against it.
Legacy can't compete. They found out they just can't turn the crank and win the battle like they were being told by all the so called "experts". It's like no one, including the "experts", ever paid attention to how business has always worked.
That’s true. As an EV owner I couldn’t care less about mandates. I’m all for free choice. If everyone else tomorrow hated EVs and no more were sold, ever, I’d be fine as long as I could drive mine.
@@SigFigNewton a subsidy is not a mandate. That's a different topic. That being said, I would be in favour of removing EV subsidies, as long as oil and gas subsidies are also cancelled! Subsidies don't actually help the consumer, they mostly just let corporations make more while doing less to make their product as cost effective as possible.
They talk about the grid like it was handed down from God and is unchangable. A) It can handle it and B) just make it better? Like we did when everyone bought airconditioners and no one complained?
The assumption that the power grid is or was at some point "finished" and has no more room for expansion and upgrades, is one of the craziest mental mysteries that I know of 😅
I don't know about you but down here in EV Hell SoCal we struggle wtih the Cost of Electricity every day now. The lack of resonable rates and High Demand during Peak summer days due to Gavin Newsome. Sorry the Grid is way behind because of EV's now ! Nobody back and I am pretty sure NOBODY back in Edisons day thought hey our home consumer customers will need to charge multiple 87,000 Wh batteries at home ! You are lieing and delusional ! Everything has to be upgraded ! And yes now that Air conditioners are common place the Electrical Load was so HIght the Govt had to set standards for efficency & companies had to make them more efficient like LED's ! else everything would pull too much and crash or cause a dip \ brownout !
@@ImLivinSD fix it then? Since when do profit making companies worry that they’re getting too much business? Petrol also uses massive amounts of electricity to refine. Also, show the actual load that EVs put on the gross vs everything else. People aren’t just charging a full 80kwh battery every day
The old "less range in winter" argument. Yes, you have 30% less range in sub-freezing weather. However, the end result is that leave in the morning with 80% and return at night with 60%, instead of the usual 70% in summer. So what? There is no issue for most EV owners who have home L2 charging. For road trips, I pre warm the car and after driving an hour or two, then supercharging, the battery is warm and range loss is minimal. The end result is a bit more charging is needed at stops, maybe 1/2 hour more for 10 hours driving. No big deal IMO. One thing I do concede, is that L2 charging needs to be brought to apartments and condos for EV sales to go mainstream.
L2 charging is the norm in Norway. Here, you're only to use a regular wall socket if you have no other option available. Every spot in my apartment complex' parking cellar has been readied for L2 charging. Plus, it's 400 volt architecture, so amps isn't an issue.
I find that people will treat an EV like a ICE car. When they ask me how long do I have to wait to get it charged, I say 0. Faster than a gas station. Cuz when I’m charging my car I’m not there waiting I’m doing other things. I don’t have to go to a place to charge my car it’s in my garage. People can’t fathom that.
Nice job Ben, clarifying all the points that Joe chose to make. Your review was logical and fair, credit when due and calling him out when necessary. If we can ever get the politics out of science, the EV revolution will flourish as they are superior to ICE in so many ways.
EVs are far less polluting even when charged 100% with a dirty coal plant. Exploring, drilling, shipping, refining, transporting, only to burn at 10-15% efficiency in an ICE is insanely inefficient. Not to mention the multi-trillion dollar wars to secure the oil.
Really liking your newer content. I unsubscribed a while back because it seemed the content you were putting out was fairly negative. I really like this debunking you're doing now. It's informative and helpful overall. I re-subscribed when you first started doing the content with Scotty Kilmer.
I love that people keep pushing the "Grid can't handle EVs" narrative. Sure, we have mass produced subdivisions with new 200 Amp service per home being constructed at a rapid pace with reckless abandon. But somehow plugging *my* car into that wall is going to destroy the power grid, Janet.
Don't forget people were saying that cryptocurrency mining were going to destroy the global electric grid a couple years ago; now you never hear anything about it. Then it was datacenters, now its electric cars; next it will be too many electric dildo's threatening mankind.
Rogan drives an EV himself, and loves it, but we do need to be aware that there will be issues trying to transition everyone to electric. Glad this channel exists to push back on all the fake news about EV's out there.
To prove that grid capacity won’t be a problem he showed a graph that shows that grid capacity hasn’t increased in over a decade. His conclusion: we’re on track! 🤣 Almost as bad use of data as I always see from EV haters.
Tell me again which part of the EV FIres, the high V Cost, the high EV Insurance, the excessive EV wait times to charge, The horrific EV's Depriciation, EV's building up on deeler lots, EV's Bricking them selve ( I have actually seen two of these) and the EV reliability issues is FAKE NEWS ?
Even if EVs were 100% fueled by coal they are still more efficient than gas. Some 93% of electricity from charger goes to power vehicle. Only 36% of power generated from gas engine goes to power the vehicle 64% is waste heat. That efficiency is key. Fir the environment coal powered EV is better than gas powered car
As far as batteries at low temps losing performance, it would be helpful to site the loss of ICE at the same temperature. I know my car gets 35 mpg in the summer and 28 in the winter for the same trip and I am not driving anywhere near the extreme temperatures being sited. Based on this I would bet the losses are similar. Also, the newer chemistries coming are 5-fold better in low temps.
In California less than 1% of our electricity is produced by coal. When you include imported energy from other states, the total coal-based electricity is still less than 3% of the total.
The UK National Grid has a myths page about EVs and grid readiness. They are pushing the adoption because of the toxic pollution - using the iPhone example is not related in any way.
In my lifetime we've gone from using 33 rpm LP records to store an hour or so of music, to a micro SD card the size of my pinky nail that can store an entire library's music collection. In the last 13 years the 24 kWh battery of the original Nissan Leaf can now be replaced with a 64 kWh battery that is barely any larger or heavier (they just need to fit new brackets to fit it into a 2011 Leaf). Battery technology will improve, and batteries will get cheaper. Eventually we'll have EVs that can go 1,000 miles without a recharge, and then it;ll take 5-10 minutes. In the meantime the limitations of charging speed and the lack of public chargers is an issue, but hardly and insurmountable hurdle. By then the argument for gasoline cars will be "but I like the sound/smell it makes". For most people a car IS just a utility item to get from A to B as safely and efficiently as possible.
Is a mandate always bad if the consumer does not get an immediate personal financial or experiential gain from making the mandated change? Should we have just let drivers choose cars that used leaded or cars that used unleaded gas based on the messages from corporations? Lead needed to be taken our of gasoline because of the serious health issues so we did it with at mandate. Automobile exhaust gases harms the health of local people now and the green house gases harm pretty much everyone later. Why would that not require a mandate??
When it comes to the grid, have you considered that when we’re not refining petroleum anymore or lower the output that the petroleum plants use a lot of electricity that will not be used for that anymore and can be used for the grid
The real news is that the giant petroleum power plant generates and distributes the electricity more efficiently and then the vehicle actually uses that transmitted energy more efficiently at the end point. A worn out electric motor also is far more efficient than a worn out ICE engine with noticeable HP loss.
Having been a Tesla owner for 5 years now I can't believe the nonsense I regularly hear from people about EVs. I've given up trying to argue with them now because I know I'm just wasting my breath! I've just taken my car down to my local garage for its MOT test (the annual safety and road-worthiness test that every car older than 3 years is subjected to in the UK by law). It was very clear that the employees were all very anti EV. They said they would refuse to test it but they're not allowed to (because of regulation). Basically they were in fear of their lives from the risk of electrocution! I asked them how people they knew of who'd been electrocuted by EVs. Apparently there's been "loads" of incidents they've heard of within the industry but they were all told to keep it hushed up! Yeah, of course they were! Anyway, my Tesla passed its inspection with flying colours and nobody died or suffered an electric shock!
I live in a senior community. Ninety percent of our people only use their car to go to the lodge, the grocery store and the doctor. An EV would work perfectly for them.
@@SigFigNewton Yep. We all have garages and I've got a Level 2 charger in mine. Actually most of the time I use a Level 1 charger plugged into a standard 15 Amp outlet. It charges plenty fast for my needs and is a bit easier on the battery.
Your hallarious, as most senior communities with 80'+ year olds bairly can operate a cell phone and have lost their license hopefully. Don't get me wrong I did not say ALL. EV's are for those that want to use an iPad to turn vents on and off. Control the Climate etc. Dog Mode is cool but will drain the battery if not plugged in. Please Do NOT give an 80 yr old a car that can do 0 to 60 in under 3sec. They confuse the Gas er Accelerator wtih the Break pedel all the time !
California has struggled with air pollution and the costs of that on society . Especially on health . California has vastly improved with regulation on the state and federal regulations but they still have emergency air quality alerts . Places like Bakersfield have lifespans greatly reduced by this . EVs are just another way of improving localized air quality. Just one zero polluting vehicle which is how EVs should be described you and your family doesn't receive those noxious fumes from at least from your vehicle . The other aspect is you don't go to gas stations where those noxious fumes congregate at higher levels
Ben many thanks for your measured response to FUD wrt EVs. I’m not sure I agree with your comment that politicians should not mandate EVs They should ensure we adopt behaviours which both protect the long term climate (control CO2 levels) and improve air quality especially in cities. If they judge the best way to do that is to replace ICE powered vehicles using extractive resource with EVs then they need to adopt incentives to ensure there are vehicles and infrastructure on hand. One way to do this is to put a stake in the ground limiting / ending of ICE cars. This focuses the minds of the car manufacturers to invest in new and good EV models
If we had started 30 or so years ago when Hansen was making it clear to the USA that this was a red alert problem, we could have done decarbonization on a much shallower downward curve than is now required. In a poll earlier this year professional climate scientists estimated at a bit over 80% of their entire group that we would pass 2.5 C of warming. That is well into the zone of serious tipping points - Greenland and west Antarctic ice sheet heavy loss, AMOC irreversibly slows, coral reefs gone, etc. With transportation approximately 27% of the problem and the agricultural, industrial and commercial sectors even more challenging, our problem becomes that of any carbon being too much. Since no scheme is even close to perfect, we have an extraordinary challenge of identifying those sectors that have no solutions, only mitigations, and prioritizing that which we clearly have the technology for right now. People who appreciate the driving of ICE vehicles (me) naturally feel put upon because their sector is straightforward, and thus has earlier goals than other sectors, all of which must be dealt with. Doesn't feel fair, but the challenge remains. What do we do, and how quickly can we do it? The 200 GTe CO2 budget remaining at about 40 GTe per year current production gives us around 5 years before most of the tipping points become close to inevitable. That's 2029. Because we procrastinated it is very close to a 5 alarm fire right now. It would be good to have a plan that actually works as opposed to kicking the can.
3:59 I experienced significant range loss due to temperature. I was going somewhere in terrible weather (blowing snow and very very cold) and lost 50% range IIRC. If I had been going far, I wouldn't have made it.
In any stats I see, none consider the mines required to build ICE cars but do for the batteries. To get gas to the car, you need drilling gears + trucks + trains, boats + refinery + pipelines and more. All consuming metals from the mines at much higher tones than EV.
The phrase 'well-to-wheel' is used in studies of environmental impact that considers all parts of the cycle from raw materials to disposal/recycling. Transport&Environment is a European organization that compares ICE and BEV impact and Argonne Lab in the US in this way.
I find it interesting that people will make point after point that is correct, but still come to the wrong conclusion. One big point that ice fans like is the ‘grid is consuming fossil fuels’ without seeing how quickly that is changing. Also, by distributing the generation with the likes of solar, that should reduce the load on the grid overall.
There's a sense of "if it's not perfect it will never work at all" that seems to plauge many when thinking about these issues. Objectively these are difficult issues for our slow brains to consider, but that's where data can help I find.
If the goal is to prevent or reduce pollution, why not a government mandated software update to limit acceleration to nothing faster than 10 seconds to 60mph? Also, you can force max speed limits through software amongst other limits. Save the planet! Regardless of my drivel, great video. The truth needs to come out.
Correct. Education is way more important here than giving subsidies for purchase of an EV. I also agree with Musk in that all subsidies should be removed for both EV, ICE and oil and gas companies. Let the market truly decide.
TBH the government just outright lies to our faces so much, that I don't see that doing much good. The seller is for prices to come down to the point where people feel comfortable jumping in to try one.
Which is part of the reason people do not like the people in EV's. I actually saw a bumper sticker that said "EVeryone I don't like Drives a Tesla!" they all for the most part have entitled egos with spending money they don't have on cars that are to complex and expensive. Alas the older ICE is still financially cheaper on my wallet, in my house for me in my application. Tell me again how a 60,000 Ev is better than my Camry that takes 50 bucks a month in gas, is Paid in Full. Has Cheap easy to obtain parts, Cheap Insurance and its easy to fix, Does not track me and is super reliable ! Your EV math does not work.
@@ImLivinSD Funny you mention that… a friend of mine owns a leaf. I own a Model S. We have this joke about people’s first impression of him of being a responsible mature individual who cares about the environment. But when they see me they’re like “Who does he think he is? He thinks he’s better than me! He thinks he’s saving the world, that entitled a-hole!”
@@ImLivinSD fyi funny irony is I can’t afford a Camry. Between the oil changes, timing belts, refueling, tune ups, brake pads/rotors and most of all, time I’ll never get back, I can’t afford your luxury.
Sorry things are going so bad so fast Politicians do need to lead the charge to the energy transition. We need to add the cost to fossil fuels on taxes that the pollution costs society.😮. How dare you???
agree, no gov mandates. Texas is using the market to grow its wind and solar production. By next year, Texas will EXCEED California in such production. The key is to reduce WASTE energy as produced by ICE vehicles. I am a conservative software engineer and love the tech of solar and other new things coming to market.
You rock as always. Miss the times when you and Joe and Tim chatted away. Are you guys still friends and have contact sometimes? I hope you do. All the best.
The politician vs scientist thing is such nonsense. If it had been up to scientists, we'd have been fully electric in the 80's. Climate scientists have been talking about man-made pollution since before Joe Rogan was born.
people think i want to save the planet, my job in my old car would cost roughly £250 in petrol a month, charging my car now on cheap overnight tarrif is £55 a month
We only would have needed mandates, if Tesla had never come along. The government would still be twisting the arm of GM, (trying to get them to make the EV-2), as China would have come along, and eaten everyone's lunch.
Mandates and laws for things all the time. Let's remove pollution regulations and just let people decide when they want to stop polluting Why mandate food safety? Let people decide if what they are going to eat is safe. We have been programmed by automakers and advertising to equate ICE to freedom. Scientists are behind the push to go EV. Politicians are actually more opposed than helping.
The longest main road in Norway is the E6 is 2576 km long, and Norway has loads of EVs. China is switching to EVs, and China is definitely not a small country.
If gas were priced by a free market (no externalities), it would drive everyone away from IC autos. Probably in the $50-$100/gal would not be unreasonable.
How can Joe Rogan have a Tesla Model S and think charging takes so long? We have an S as well and we roadtrip 1700 miles twice per year. In most cases are charge stops are less than 15 minutes every 3 hours unless we stop for a meal. If we listened to Scientists we would be transitioning far faster. Politicians have slowed down the transition incredibly.
Great and simple takedown, Ben. I especially liked hearing you explain the electrical grid. I have explained this so many times over the last few years, I feel like I need to be at the ready with a pre-made text showing that the grid will be just fine.
Also on the coal argument, the coal industry is cleaning up the emissions, not natural gas clean, but better than the black smoke days. Could you give more details on those efforts as well?
I went from a clapped out chevy suburban 200k miles, to long range f150 lightning. I did MAJOR research to be sure this would work for me. The surprising thing was that its been over performing compared to what i expected. I was preparing for sacrifice and have had to do nothing. To be clear if i drove cross country while towing heavy loads, i would of went diesel. It's important to have the right tool for the job.
Nokia phones didn't have tailpipe emissions that contaminated the air and made people literally ill with a multitude of pulmonary and respiratory problems. So yes, mandating iPhones wasn't necessary, it was just a thing of comfort. This is more serious than that.
Another great one Ben, thanks! We bought a Tesla, not to save the planet, but to drive mostly short trips many times a day! Charge it "off peak" at home and cost us $112 for a year!
As Chris Harris, Joe's interviewee, is from the UK the point raised about grid readiness also applies to the UK's National Grid. The UK's grid already has sufficient core transmission capacity for the uptake in all renewable demand not just electric cars. The UK grid is sized for 80GW, for a peak demand capacity of 65GW that existed back in 2005/6. Since that time load has significant reduced largely in part due to industrial and lighting efficiency gains; the UK grid's load currently ranges from 25 to 35GW daily (and has been as low as 16GW recently). The National Grid project that when all energy demands (industrial, household and mobility) fully switch to green electricity the demand will only increase to 45GW; of this the vehicle charging increase is around 5GW, of which 1 to 2GW is for cars (all 36 million of them in the UK). The key enabler for increasing the grids support of electric vehicles is grid connectivity of battery charging sites, rather than the UK grids core transmission capability, plus the connection of renewable generation sites around the UK. However, the transistion over to electrified transport is a generational one gradularly taking place as ICE cars fade from the used car market, with sufficient time for both the planned renewable generation growth and charging network increases. The grid upgrade programme underway, due to complete by 2030, provides extensions of the grid to those locations not previously serviced by high voltage lines, increases to the number of links to the coast to support the vast amount of offshore wind generation the UK is capable of producing, and addresses historical issues within the existing grid (such as grid congestion) that cost millions of pound a year to currently mitigate.
Have owned an EV for 4 years. ICE enthusiast for my entire life. Used to change my oil, fluids, rotate my tires, mod my exhaust, carb, later my fuel injection, etc. But my EV is a life changing experience. No engine, practically no maintenance , swoosh past gas stations. We have solar panels and a Level 2 charger. This AYN Rand attitude of “self interest “ leading to consumer adoption over time is kinda right, but unless you poke a little, people will take forever to switch to EVs, and the corporate Oil industry will do everything to sabotage EV adoption. I mean Porsche EVs are amazing and the power delivery is amazing.
The mandates are necessary to level the playing field. Gas had a 100-year head start in building the infrastructure and gets 5 times the level of annual direct subsidies as electric. Once the playing field is ideally level, do you really think a vehicle 1/10 the complexity of ICE with delivery/distillation logistics 1/100 the cost of gas and far lower vehicle lifetime costs will not be capable of competing on its own merit?
Hey Joe. Those same coal plants supply the power for your podcast… and Jamie’s crib so… Shut them down? Ok. Here’s the EV advantage: You can still power your EV from various other sources. With oil, you can’t.
I think Ben made a great point. We don't need mandates or government getting heavy handed. When you do that you turn EVs into a political football. If EVs are better (and I firmly believe they are for 95% of use cases) then when they reach price parity (they are already in countries where Chinese imports aren't so heavily taxed) then adoption will be inevitable anyway. There's still some hurdles like charging for people without driveways or those in a body corporate situation with shared power but I'm confident that they're just minor in a segment that's only 14 years old. Given another decade and there'll be 100's of potential solutions.
You are still absolutely free to choose a horse and carriage if you are nostalgic and don't want to move into the future. The problem with the Porsche 911 is that eventually it will be expensive and difficult to find somewhere to get fuel. Practicalities will kill ICE vehicles.
The plad, didn't even completed Nürburgring test lap!! The batteries ended before it could make an record lap. This shows, batteries aren't read to power everything
Oh really? Failed to mention about the EV graveyards housing thousands of EV cars in china to falsify sales numbers and claim subsidies from the government?
1:21-2:00 is such an absurd nitpick. Obviously Joe is talking about daily drivers. Not random trucking regulations for massive transport. And saying "well actually hybrids technically can be allowed..." is just a reach to try to say Joe is wrong. I drive an EV, have no reason to argue for Joe on that, but that was strikingly dishonest to say "yes and no" when the answer is very clearly yes given the context of the law and use case Joe is referring to. Reminds me when political says "mostly false" on something that is completely true w/ a few irrelevant technicalities.
So @BenSullinsOfficial, data guy, are there existing estimates of how many lives would be saved per year in the USA if we could magically flip the switch to a 100% EV light vehicle fleet? How many sick days would be prevented?
Yes, around 90,000 fewer premature deaths, 10.7 million fewer sick days and almost a trillion dollar boost to the economy. Check the American Lung Association study on this here www.lung.org/getmedia/9e9947ea-d4a6-476c-9c78-cccf7d49ffe2/ala-driving-to-clean-air-report.pdf
Mandates give business a framework to organize around and something to tell investors and stockholders why they're spending money on something long-term
12:36 I hate the fact the timeline is determined by politicians instead of scientists too! If it were determined by scientists we would be on generation 5 of the Mach-E and gas cars would have been a weekend hobby toy for the past 30 years.
Huge difference between localized air pollution and the pollution from the energy supplier. It's like trying to compare someone smoking in your backyard vs someone smoking in your kitchen while your having a meal.
Car range = toilet range = 2 hours max if with kids, or 4 hours if you want kidney stones. My Kona does 3 hours no problem (@70mph) ... so its perfect. As others have noted, stopping, resting, eating etc - is actually important.
Agree with a lot of what you say but not the "first needs to be aligned with self-intereste part". People sometimes claim that xyz is their self-interest, when its not actually in their self-interest. What they have confused with self-interest is personal desire based on flawed reasoning. It's not a choice to get off fossil fuels. Its being forced on us by the laws of physics. It's in everyone's self-interest not to see large, and continuing, rise in temperatures. So unless the ICE industry has a cost efficient method to eliminate co2 emission in their products, ICE is mostly on the way out,
In 47 days of ownership, i've saved far more time by not stopping for fuel than the time I've spent at superchargers on one 500 mile trip.
Plus you can use the restroom and have a bite to eat while the car charges. Generally, the human blob behind the wheel needs a break before the car does.
Really, don’t ice cars have typically more range ?
@@tatata1543 What does it matter, if the human behind the wheel needs a break before the car anyway, and the car is back up to 80 percent state of charge by the time the driver is done with their break?
@@hadtopicausername It matters in relation to the op, which doesn’t ring true.
@@tatata1543 typically. But I drive quite a bit daily. I think on that 500 mile trip I stopped three times to charge for about 15 minutes each time. Long enough to use the restroom and get a drink. But I haven’t stopped once since then. For in town driving it’s working well for me.
Petrol heads never seem to see the downside of their dirty fuel, lines of diesel spilled on roads, tankers spilling oil into the sea, deep water horizon, exploding oil refineries etc. fossil fuels don't start polluting at the pump
And evs pollute before they are ever an auto. Child labour mining rare earth minerals, to leveling and filtering entire mountain ranges. Part of the problem is the sanctimonious dreggs complaining of the evils of petrol. Get over yourselves
even this week "Major evacuations after massive pipeline fire in Deer Park; officials say fire started by vehicle striking valve"
Not to mention the fact that every time they smell the exhaust of their car, petrol heads are contributing to the decline of theirs and others health.
They don't even understand that 99.9% of EV owners already had an ICE vehicle and know 100% how it is to own and drive one, so literally 99 out of 100 talking points are completely meaningless.
"my gas car this, my gas car that, blablabla"
As if they would expose some new kind of thing that you haven't heard before....
@@Tschacki_QuackiExactly. I have the self same issue having switched to a plant based diet 5 years ago. People who have never tried eating plant based and done zero research telling me what it is likely to happen to me at some future date and then telling me what I am missing…….as if I didn’t eat meat, eggs and dairy all of my life.
It’s just gaslighting.
I've driven with a tesla model Y in Iceland in the winter and had no problems, firstly it doesn't get all that cold on the coast where most people live, the coldest I experienced was -13 Celsius
Secondly you can never drive all that fast or really anything over 90kmh and with fast chargers all around the island, which we only actually had to use ones it was the easiest thing ever
that just reminds me that diesel has serious issues in the cold as well. But for some reason, this never gets mentioned
We visited Iceland for the first time this April. So many EVs, and so many Teslas among them. I ordered my first EV, a Tesla Model 3 a month later back home in England. Loving it so far, and saving an insane amount of money using cheap overnight charging compared to expensive petrol.
The coal fired power station argument is a classic argument: so to debunk it, here are my calculations for charging my Tesla purely from coal.
I calculated the CO2 emissions for a Tesla Model 3 traveling 100 km using electricity from coal-fired power stations in Queensland, Australia.
1. Energy consumption for 100 km:
- The Tesla Model 3 uses 125 Wh per km.
- For 100 km: 125 Wh/km * 100 km = 12,500 Wh = 12.5 kWh.
2. CO2 emissions factor for coal-fired power stations in Queensland is approximately 0.81 kg CO2-e/kWh (CO2 equivalent per kilowatt-hour).
3. Total CO2 emissions: 12.5 kWh * 0.81 kg CO2-e/kWh = 10.125 kg CO2-e.
A typical mid-sized ICE car at 9.5 liters per 100 km emits 2.31 kg CO2 per liter x 9.5 = 21.95 kg of CO2.
The Tesla saves over 11.8 kg of CO2.
So, even before adding renewables into the mix, over 50% has been reduced.
This is all BS. We have private jets putting out more CO2 in one flight than 1000's of gas cars do in their entire lifetime, both China and India are still deploying coal powered power plants which tells me they know this is BS also but they give lip service to it in order to sell "green" products to those dumb enough to believe this stuff. Buy whatever you think is best for you and your family because whatever you decide is not going to change anything one iota.
The energy required to manufacture EVs batteries is missing from the calculation. Tesla claimed their Model 3's battery is designed to last 360,000 miles (or about 580,000 km) for the standard range before replacement. Even if that bit of energy is added to the calculation, the EVs still produce far less CO2 as a whole.
Rogan has this expression that says, I have no idea if these things I'm saying are true but I read them on Facebook.
😭😭
@@BenSullinsOfficial I have no idea if this is true or not but I read them on Facebook
After leasing a Model Y for myself for work in March, my wife begged me to replace her 2010 Prius with the now used 2021 Model 3. The cost per mile is actually a wash as the Prius was pretty efficient and the insurance only went up a little bit with the new car. ANY newer car would have risen the insurance costs, to be fair. However, the fun and convenience factor for her really makes the difference with the Model 3 that she would not experience with a similar $25k car. If she got a comparable Camry, Accord, or even a 3 Series, she would not experience the convenience of charging at home, FSD, or linear acceleration the Model 3 offers. The ONLY thing we might miss out on is the Toyota reliability which we’ll find out over time.
I’d put my money on the Tesla reliability.
I’m driving a 2015 S - needs some scratches fixed, orig brk pads, 3rd set of tires 110k miles alignment done door handle repairs….
All drivetrain stuff is perfect
Joe Rogan knows exactly what he’s doing. If he used logic and data, he wouldn’t have a podcast. Being a provocateur is profitable. Maybe he should take Jay leno’s approach: “Horses didn’t go away after the automobile. Increase the use of electric transport, and you can save all those unique cars for weekends and pleasure.” On the environment side of things, I’m sure he would prefer to breathe than to exist in a toxic environment. Just sayin’
Rogan is known to be an idiot, worldwide.
He uses mis-information and foul-mouthed vitriol to appeal to the ignorant red necks. Makes him a lot of money.
you give him too much credit. I think he's just not that smart. Like he's obviously got some skills - he runs a business and does stand up comedy. But he just isn't book smart.
Data, facts, peer reviewed studies. I wish this were the norm for policy discourse.
Totally agree. And then there is our current government that has openly stated they won't listen to experts and will just do what the hell they want anyway.
My Tesla Model 3 rwd just had its second birthday. It has already saved me over $7k in fuel costs. Cost to own is one of the best parts of owning an EV.
But you're sinking that economy in your monthly payments. I save about $300/month in gas, but pay 300 more per month. Still, I'm going to be finished with my payments in about 2 years. Meaning from there on, it's all savings.
@maxpelletier2237 stop it. This is a dumb argument. You but a $40k vehicle the payment is going to be the same. Gas or ev.
The Tesla was only $2k more than the gas car I was going to buy originally. So I already made up the difference.
@@jaymac4448 Dude, I got a Model 3 Dual motor over 5 years ago. All in all, it costed me the price of an audi a4. What I said is totally my reality. A cheap gas car still cost way less than an EV. Yes, Total cost of ownership is already beaten. But there is still way to go.
Did you update the figures in the Tesla app. For instance, TOU rates, charging rates? It could be higher?
I really appreciate you doing these videos. A lot of UA-camrs, even some of them who have EV channels, seem to be bent on spreading misinformation and undermining EV adoption. I’ve been driving EVsfor over 12 years now and love them. Especially as a daily driver, they cannot be beat.
The grid already has enough capacity for EVs. There is far more than 30% excess capacity now in off-peak capacity, which is when EVs charge. Data centers are a whole different subject!
generative AI and cryptocurrency need to yield to EVs IMO. they're both a solution looking for a problem.
People like to plug in their cars when they get home. Electricity demand is high at this time.
@@SigFigNewton EVs have charge scheduling to automatically start and stop charging at specific times to avoid peak times.
@mrallelectriccarlunacy AI, crypto and data centers in general are tge threat to the grid. Their loads are 24/7 and unbelievably high. Their load already exceeds most existing generation capacity. Utilities are refusing to connect to new data centers because they don't have the capacity.
@@SigFigNewton EVs don't charge when you plug them in, owners program them to charge when the "super off-peak" rates start later in the evening. Any utility that doesn't have these off-peak rates yet can implement them if needed.
Mandates from government for seat belts, speed limits, driving under the influence, vehicle safety checks. Sometimes mandates are required to protect people from themselves....
12:37 - To be fair, if the timelines were determined by the scientists we'd have been driving EV's much sooner. IMO politicians have just been putting it off for as long as they could and kinda painted themselves into a corner not wanting to be the party to set the targets as it would be unpopular.
Good point
Norway used to have two electric car brand, Buddy and Think so no tax on these cars actually worked as a type of protectionist policy until 2009 when the imiev launched. So I think the lack of ICE car manufacturing in Norway, pressure from activists and EV manufacturing laid the groundwork for Norwegian EV policy.
I was under the impression tha data centers, crypto mining and now AI were more of a drain on the grid.
If we are growing the grid by 6% because of those things plus population growth then the 30% needed for EV's are in addition to our current growth so Ben is wrong in the vid.
@@christophers707 Bold statement saying Ben is wrong. Let's see your maths
@11:29 - "Takes too long to charge"
I think Joe was the first one to convince me of that argument being invalid a few years ago. There's 0% chance he didn't just take on a few new "sponsors".
He’s talking here with a real gearhead. He is someone who actually “enjoys“ driving. Most people don’t care about that and don’t really care how their wheels are turned just as long as they get to where they need to go.
I am not sure why people are not called out when they say EV's are as bad as gas cars because of dirty fuels that make electricity. All of that gasoline requires electricity to pump out of the ground, then move it through pipelines, and refine it. Why is all of that energy not part of the pollution comparison on oil's side of the scale? EV's take the energy directly from the power grid. Oil takes it too. What ever the concerns we have about electricity generation, it is an additional problem for oil as well.
Very simple, the price of the gas on the pumb already indicated all the cost included, not about the their real value. for driving the same distance, electricity cost is only 10% of gas cost.
There are such incredible statistics now on EVs such that if more of the public was aware of the stats like cost to own, more would consider having one.
Most people think EVs start on fire easily, but they don't. They are 60 times LESS likely to start on fire than ICE vehicles. They are a lot harder to put out, but also not entirely. They have fire blankets already today that you can see videos that put the fire under control very quickly so they can be put to a lot easier than just not using the blanket. Super simple and super simple solution that 2 firefighters can handle.
Fast charging does very little if anything to dilute battery life - all indications are showing that.
We already know that the average battery will have 85% life left at 200K miles, which is incredible, and that is getting better all the time. CATL has some crazy batteries coming out that dramatically improve that stat and batteries charge to 80% in like 12 minutes now on a fast charger... and always improving
Tesla is one of the safest vehicles on the road statistically... very, very safe.
So much disinformation or lack of information out there
data centers for AI will trash the grid quicker than cars
☝️
Unless the AI comes up with a plan to reinforce the grid first!
@@anthonydyer3939 it better do it fast ...government takes forever
So we can not under any circumstances take away someone's rights, even if that "right" harms us all? Rights like CO2 emissions, lead in gasoline, water pipes and paint, CFCs in refrigeration units, asbestos in construction, widespread use of DDT and other toxic and/or dangerous materials we once used but learned the dangers of. You sure your "right" to continue to do your small part in the emission of CO2 just because it is a time-honored tradition and is sacred on the altar of "vroom-vroom --- screech" in a loud, throbbing sports car cannot be infringed?
So much for "following the data..."t
The right to spew toxic chemicals into the atmosphere ends at another person's lungs.
Some ask why are there incentives for evs, why are we getting money to buy them, I asked why are you not paying more for polluting common including CO2 emissions, you're welcome
I actually reduced my energy consumption. My power bill crept up to $300 and I had a Tesla since 21 with little increase in my power bill. it was around $200 about 5 years ago . So my HVAC went out and I went to minisplits then changed from an instant on electric water heater , that had saved me about $20 a month when installed. I went with a heat pump water heater and between those two things I was using so much LESS power I got my bill back to that $200 mark. As things improve and old appliances are replaced less and less power will be used offsetting the power consumed by EVs.
When it comes to pollution, why is no one talking about all those oil spots in every single parking lot out there?
They are pretty much soaked up by the pavement. Concrete soaks up liquid like a sponge and asphalt basically just incorporates oil into itself.
I think how these used oil is recycled that’s way worse ..
In rural areas they still spray used oil on the road for dust control. You guys are clueless
I go with the arrangement, if EVs and gas vehicles are a wash, then isn't an Ebike 100 times better?
They agree and say they'll never do that, completely missing the fact (or not caring) that they are going to do what they want even if it's the worse choice.
Well this is the beauty of the internet. You learn new facts every day. Now I won’t feel guilty when my sausage fingers drop an oil plug too soon and smear the pavement with a qt or two of 10K mile burnt oil.
It's amazing how almost every EV proponent I talk to is against government mandates. The only ones asking for this are legacy auto, because they can't get their 💩 together and build an affordable EV that they can make a profit on.
Government intervention is actually hurting the EV industry by creating resentment from people who don't want to be told what to do with their $$, so everyone should be against it.
Legacy can't compete. They found out they just can't turn the crank and win the battle like they were being told by all the so called "experts". It's like no one, including the "experts", ever paid attention to how business has always worked.
That’s true. As an EV owner I couldn’t care less about mandates. I’m all for free choice. If everyone else tomorrow hated EVs and no more were sold, ever, I’d be fine as long as I could drive mine.
I’m for subsidizing EVs so that an EV is the best choice.
@@SigFigNewton a subsidy is not a mandate. That's a different topic.
That being said, I would be in favour of removing EV subsidies, as long as oil and gas subsidies are also cancelled! Subsidies don't actually help the consumer, they mostly just let corporations make more while doing less to make their product as cost effective as possible.
They talk about the grid like it was handed down from God and is unchangable. A) It can handle it and B) just make it better? Like we did when everyone bought airconditioners and no one complained?
Air conditioners didn’t damage the profits of enormously power industries.
The assumption that the power grid is or was at some point "finished" and has no more room for expansion and upgrades, is one of the craziest mental mysteries that I know of 😅
I don't know about you but down here in EV Hell SoCal we struggle wtih the Cost of Electricity every day now. The lack of resonable rates and High Demand during Peak summer days due to Gavin Newsome. Sorry the Grid is way behind because of EV's now ! Nobody back and I am pretty sure NOBODY back in Edisons day thought hey our home consumer customers will need to charge multiple 87,000 Wh batteries at home ! You are lieing and delusional ! Everything has to be upgraded ! And yes now that Air conditioners are common place the Electrical Load was so HIght the Govt had to set standards for efficency & companies had to make them more efficient like LED's ! else everything would pull too much and crash or cause a dip \ brownout !
@@ImLivinSD fix it then? Since when do profit making companies worry that they’re getting too much business? Petrol also uses massive amounts of electricity to refine.
Also, show the actual load that EVs put on the gross vs everything else. People aren’t just charging a full 80kwh battery every day
The vehicles don’t need mandates to survive. The CLIMATE requires these mandates
The old "less range in winter" argument. Yes, you have 30% less range in sub-freezing weather. However, the end result is that leave in the morning with 80% and return at night with 60%, instead of the usual 70% in summer. So what? There is no issue for most EV owners who have home L2 charging. For road trips, I pre warm the car and after driving an hour or two, then supercharging, the battery is warm and range loss is minimal. The end result is a bit more charging is needed at stops, maybe 1/2 hour more for 10 hours driving. No big deal IMO.
One thing I do concede, is that L2 charging needs to be brought to apartments and condos for EV sales to go mainstream.
L2 charging is the norm in Norway. Here, you're only to use a regular wall socket if you have no other option available. Every spot in my apartment complex' parking cellar has been readied for L2 charging. Plus, it's 400 volt architecture, so amps isn't an issue.
I find that people will treat an EV like a ICE car. When they ask me how long do I have to wait to get it charged, I say 0. Faster than a gas station. Cuz when I’m charging my car I’m not there waiting I’m doing other things. I don’t have to go to a place to charge my car it’s in my garage. People can’t fathom that.
I’m saddened that there is still so much misinformation out there wrt EVs.
Nice job Ben, clarifying all the points that Joe chose to make. Your review was logical and fair, credit when due and calling him out when necessary. If we can ever get the politics out of science, the EV revolution will flourish as they are superior to ICE in so many ways.
EVs are far less polluting even when charged 100% with a dirty coal plant. Exploring, drilling, shipping, refining, transporting, only to burn at 10-15% efficiency in an ICE is insanely inefficient. Not to mention the multi-trillion dollar wars to secure the oil.
@@andyfeimsternfei8408 you forget the 1 million people death in Irak.
Really liking your newer content. I unsubscribed a while back because it seemed the content you were putting out was fairly negative. I really like this debunking you're doing now. It's informative and helpful overall. I re-subscribed when you first started doing the content with Scotty Kilmer.
One minor thing about the CA mandate - this only impacts _new_ vehicle sales, not used.
Good point
I love that people keep pushing the "Grid can't handle EVs" narrative.
Sure, we have mass produced subdivisions with new 200 Amp service per home being constructed at a rapid pace with reckless abandon. But somehow plugging *my* car into that wall is going to destroy the power grid, Janet.
Don't forget people were saying that cryptocurrency mining were going to destroy the global electric grid a couple years ago; now you never hear anything about it. Then it was datacenters, now its electric cars; next it will be too many electric dildo's threatening mankind.
So true!
Rogan drives an EV himself, and loves it, but we do need to be aware that there will be issues trying to transition everyone to electric.
Glad this channel exists to push back on all the fake news about EV's out there.
To prove that grid capacity won’t be a problem he showed a graph that shows that grid capacity hasn’t increased in over a decade. His conclusion: we’re on track! 🤣
Almost as bad use of data as I always see from EV haters.
Tell me again which part of the EV FIres, the high V Cost, the high EV Insurance, the excessive EV wait times to charge, The horrific EV's Depriciation, EV's building up on deeler lots, EV's Bricking them selve ( I have actually seen two of these) and the EV reliability issues is FAKE NEWS ?
Even if EVs were 100% fueled by coal they are still more efficient than gas. Some 93% of electricity from charger goes to power vehicle. Only 36% of power generated from gas engine goes to power the vehicle 64% is waste heat. That efficiency is key. Fir the environment coal powered EV is better than gas powered car
As far as batteries at low temps losing performance, it would be helpful to site the loss of ICE at the same temperature. I know my car gets 35 mpg in the summer and 28 in the winter for the same trip and I am not driving anywhere near the extreme temperatures being sited. Based on this I would bet the losses are similar. Also, the newer chemistries coming are 5-fold better in low temps.
I think too that the introduction of Megapacks for grid balancing and off peak storage, that's going to be a game changer.
Agree but I’m hoping a more distributed approach (V2G) will prevail
I frequently find the most aggressive and pessimistic anti BEV people have never even been in one.
Love your approach Ben.
In California less than 1% of our electricity is produced by coal. When you include imported energy from other states, the total coal-based electricity is still less than 3% of the total.
Almost 4 years of Tesla M3LR ownership. The savings in fuel and service costs have been extraordinary!!
Well done Ben! Keep it going man!
The UK National Grid has a myths page about EVs and grid readiness. They are pushing the adoption because of the toxic pollution - using the iPhone example is not related in any way.
In my lifetime we've gone from using 33 rpm LP records to store an hour or so of music, to a micro SD card the size of my pinky nail that can store an entire library's music collection.
In the last 13 years the 24 kWh battery of the original Nissan Leaf can now be replaced with a 64 kWh battery that is barely any larger or heavier (they just need to fit new brackets to fit it into a 2011 Leaf).
Battery technology will improve, and batteries will get cheaper. Eventually we'll have EVs that can go 1,000 miles without a recharge, and then it;ll take 5-10 minutes.
In the meantime the limitations of charging speed and the lack of public chargers is an issue, but hardly and insurmountable hurdle.
By then the argument for gasoline cars will be "but I like the sound/smell it makes".
For most people a car IS just a utility item to get from A to B as safely and efficiently as possible.
Is a mandate always bad if the consumer does not get an immediate personal financial or experiential gain from making the mandated change? Should we have just let drivers choose cars that used leaded or cars that used unleaded gas based on the messages from corporations? Lead needed to be taken our of gasoline because of the serious health issues so we did it with at mandate. Automobile exhaust gases harms the health of local people now and the green house gases harm pretty much everyone later. Why would that not require a mandate??
When it comes to the grid, have you considered that when we’re not refining petroleum anymore or lower the output that the petroleum plants use a lot of electricity that will not be used for that anymore and can be used for the grid
The real news is that the giant petroleum power plant generates and distributes the electricity more efficiently and then the vehicle actually uses that transmitted energy more efficiently at the end point. A worn out electric motor also is far more efficient than a worn out ICE engine with noticeable HP loss.
Having been a Tesla owner for 5 years now I can't believe the nonsense I regularly hear from people about EVs. I've given up trying to argue with them now because I know I'm just wasting my breath! I've just taken my car down to my local garage for its MOT test (the annual safety and road-worthiness test that every car older than 3 years is subjected to in the UK by law). It was very clear that the employees were all very anti EV. They said they would refuse to test it but they're not allowed to (because of regulation). Basically they were in fear of their lives from the risk of electrocution! I asked them how people they knew of who'd been electrocuted by EVs. Apparently there's been "loads" of incidents they've heard of within the industry but they were all told to keep it hushed up! Yeah, of course they were! Anyway, my Tesla passed its inspection with flying colours and nobody died or suffered an electric shock!
I live in a senior community. Ninety percent of our people only use their car to go to the lodge, the grocery store and the doctor. An EV would work perfectly for them.
Are there places to charge where they park at the senior community?
@@SigFigNewton Yep. We all have garages and I've got a Level 2 charger in mine. Actually most of the time I use a Level 1 charger plugged into a standard 15 Amp outlet. It charges plenty fast for my needs and is a bit easier on the battery.
Your hallarious, as most senior communities with 80'+ year olds bairly can operate a cell phone and have lost their license hopefully. Don't get me wrong I did not say ALL. EV's are for those that want to use an iPad to turn vents on and off. Control the Climate etc. Dog Mode is cool but will drain the battery if not plugged in. Please Do NOT give an 80 yr old a car that can do 0 to 60 in under 3sec. They confuse the Gas er Accelerator wtih the Break pedel all the time !
@@ImLivinSD Gee. I guess you aren't familiar with seniors. I'm 84 and can do all of the things you mention and more.
Yay! Ageism!
California has struggled with air pollution and the costs of that on society . Especially on health . California has vastly improved with regulation on the state and federal regulations but they still have emergency air quality alerts . Places like Bakersfield have lifespans greatly reduced by this . EVs are just another way of improving localized air quality. Just one zero polluting vehicle which is how EVs should be described you and your family doesn't receive those noxious fumes from at least from your vehicle . The other aspect is you don't go to gas stations where those noxious fumes congregate at higher levels
How much should we beg people to do the right thing before we take legal action
Ben many thanks for your measured response to FUD wrt EVs. I’m not sure I agree with your comment that politicians should not mandate EVs They should ensure we adopt behaviours which both protect the long term climate (control CO2 levels) and improve air quality especially in cities. If they judge the best way to do that is to replace ICE powered vehicles using extractive resource with EVs then they need to adopt incentives to ensure there are vehicles and infrastructure on hand. One way to do this is to put a stake in the ground limiting / ending of ICE cars. This focuses the minds of the car manufacturers to invest in new and good EV models
Exactly, no one writes a book report the day it's assigned, they wait until it's due, same with manufacturers moving to electric.
If we had started 30 or so years ago when Hansen was making it clear to the USA that this was a red alert problem, we could have done decarbonization on a much shallower downward curve than is now required. In a poll earlier this year professional climate scientists estimated at a bit over 80% of their entire group that we would pass 2.5 C of warming. That is well into the zone of serious tipping points - Greenland and west Antarctic ice sheet heavy loss, AMOC irreversibly slows, coral reefs gone, etc. With transportation approximately 27% of the problem and the agricultural, industrial and commercial sectors even more challenging, our problem becomes that of any carbon being too much. Since no scheme is even close to perfect, we have an extraordinary challenge of identifying those sectors that have no solutions, only mitigations, and prioritizing that which we clearly have the technology for right now. People who appreciate the driving of ICE vehicles (me) naturally feel put upon because their sector is straightforward, and thus has earlier goals than other sectors, all of which must be dealt with. Doesn't feel fair, but the challenge remains. What do we do, and how quickly can we do it? The 200 GTe CO2 budget remaining at about 40 GTe per year current production gives us around 5 years before most of the tipping points become close to inevitable. That's 2029. Because we procrastinated it is very close to a 5 alarm fire right now. It would be good to have a plan that actually works as opposed to kicking the can.
3:59 I experienced significant range loss due to temperature. I was going somewhere in terrible weather (blowing snow and very very cold) and lost 50% range IIRC. If I had been going far, I wouldn't have made it.
I live in Vermont. Our power is 90% or more renewable day in and day out.
Burning wood to generate electricity is NOT green or renewable. That is a farce. It is as bad if not worse than burning coal. Nice try from Vermont.
In any stats I see, none consider the mines required to build ICE cars but do for the batteries. To get gas to the car, you need drilling gears + trucks + trains, boats + refinery + pipelines and more. All consuming metals from the mines at much higher tones than EV.
The phrase 'well-to-wheel' is used in studies of environmental impact that considers all parts of the cycle from raw materials to disposal/recycling.
Transport&Environment is a European organization that compares ICE and BEV impact and Argonne Lab in the US in this way.
I find it interesting that people will make point after point that is correct, but still come to the wrong conclusion. One big point that ice fans like is the ‘grid is consuming fossil fuels’ without seeing how quickly that is changing. Also, by distributing the generation with the likes of solar, that should reduce the load on the grid overall.
There's a sense of "if it's not perfect it will never work at all" that seems to plauge many when thinking about these issues. Objectively these are difficult issues for our slow brains to consider, but that's where data can help I find.
If the goal is to prevent or reduce pollution, why not a government mandated software update to limit acceleration to nothing faster than 10 seconds to 60mph? Also, you can force max speed limits through software amongst other limits. Save the planet! Regardless of my drivel, great video. The truth needs to come out.
please no more government control that's a scary idea
If the government wants EVs to be adopted faster, spend nothing on incentives and spend on education of the public
good point, there's so much anti electric propaganda right now its making the process a lot slower
Correct. Education is way more important here than giving subsidies for purchase of an EV. I also agree with Musk in that all subsidies should be removed for both EV, ICE and oil and gas companies. Let the market truly decide.
Why not both. But point well taken that propaganda is a problem in inhibiting the adoption of EVs for the mass market.
TBH the government just outright lies to our faces so much, that I don't see that doing much good. The seller is for prices to come down to the point where people feel comfortable jumping in to try one.
Just because it won't work the facts are readily available, people are very dedicated to being stupid
I think once people drive an EV and feel superior it's all that's needed
then spend the rest of the day charging at a price thats more per-mile than Petrol lol yeah that super.... impractical and shit
Which is part of the reason people do not like the people in EV's. I actually saw a bumper sticker that said "EVeryone I don't like Drives a Tesla!" they all for the most part have entitled egos with spending money they don't have on cars that are to complex and expensive. Alas the older ICE is still financially cheaper on my wallet, in my house for me in my application. Tell me again how a 60,000 Ev is better than my Camry that takes 50 bucks a month in gas, is Paid in Full. Has Cheap easy to obtain parts, Cheap Insurance and its easy to fix, Does not track me and is super reliable ! Your EV math does not work.
@@ImLivinSD Funny you mention that… a friend of mine owns a leaf. I own a Model S. We have this joke about people’s first impression of him of being a responsible mature individual who cares about the environment. But when they see me they’re like “Who does he think he is? He thinks he’s better than me! He thinks he’s saving the world, that entitled a-hole!”
@@ImLivinSD fyi funny irony is I can’t afford a Camry. Between the oil changes, timing belts, refueling, tune ups, brake pads/rotors and most of all, time I’ll never get back, I can’t afford your luxury.
The right heat pump can warm up the battery. Tesla had them.
I’m an ev nut since I drove a prototype a long time ago. I can’t afford one… I can’t afford a new ice car either…
Sorry things are going so bad so fast Politicians do need to lead the charge to the energy transition.
We need to add the cost to fossil fuels on taxes that the pollution costs society.😮. How dare you???
Freedom has to be a compromise because your freedom usually compromises someone else's freedom
agree, no gov mandates. Texas is using the market to grow its wind and solar production. By next year, Texas will EXCEED California in such production. The key is to reduce WASTE energy as produced by ICE vehicles. I am a conservative software engineer and love the tech of solar and other new things coming to market.
T Boone Pickens!
If you care about climate change, we need mandates for EVs.
You rock as always. Miss the times when you and Joe and Tim chatted away. Are you guys still friends and have contact sometimes? I hope you do. All the best.
Tim and I just hung out last week, yep! We'll all likely reunite at the Astro Awards in Jan too
@@BenSullinsOfficial Awesome, nice to hear that!
The politician vs scientist thing is such nonsense. If it had been up to scientists, we'd have been fully electric in the 80's. Climate scientists have been talking about man-made pollution since before Joe Rogan was born.
people think i want to save the planet, my job in my old car would cost roughly £250 in petrol a month, charging my car now on cheap overnight tarrif is £55 a month
It's the sale of NEW cars that is affected by the mandates. In the UK the Grid has planning in place
We only would have needed mandates, if Tesla had never come along.
The government would still be twisting the arm of GM, (trying to get them to make the EV-2), as China would have come along, and eaten everyone's lunch.
Mandates and laws for things all the time. Let's remove pollution regulations and just let people decide when they want to stop polluting Why mandate food safety? Let people decide if what they are going to eat is safe. We have been programmed by automakers and advertising to equate ICE to freedom. Scientists are behind the push to go EV. Politicians are actually more opposed than helping.
Lucky Iceland is only 500km long at its longest. EVs are perfect for many many places, without compromise.
The longest main road in Norway is the E6 is 2576 km long, and Norway has loads of EVs. China is switching to EVs, and China is definitely not a small country.
If gas were priced by a free market (no externalities), it would drive everyone away from IC autos. Probably in the $50-$100/gal would not be unreasonable.
How can Joe Rogan have a Tesla Model S and think charging takes so long? We have an S as well and we roadtrip 1700 miles twice per year. In most cases are charge stops are less than 15 minutes every 3 hours unless we stop for a meal. If we listened to Scientists we would be transitioning far faster. Politicians have slowed down the transition incredibly.
Great and simple takedown, Ben. I especially liked hearing you explain the electrical grid. I have explained this so many times over the last few years, I feel like I need to be at the ready with a pre-made text showing that the grid will be just fine.
Also on the coal argument, the coal industry is cleaning up the emissions, not natural gas clean, but better than the black smoke days. Could you give more details on those efforts as well?
Send me the data 🤘
You cannot clean up CO2 and coal is very bad for that.
I went from a clapped out chevy suburban 200k miles, to long range f150 lightning. I did MAJOR research to be sure this would work for me. The surprising thing was that its been over performing compared to what i expected. I was preparing for sacrifice and have had to do nothing. To be clear if i drove cross country while towing heavy loads, i would of went diesel. It's important to have the right tool for the job.
Nokia phones didn't have tailpipe emissions that contaminated the air and made people literally ill with a multitude of pulmonary and respiratory problems. So yes, mandating iPhones wasn't necessary, it was just a thing of comfort. This is more serious than that.
Another great one Ben, thanks! We bought a Tesla, not to save the planet, but to drive mostly short trips many times a day! Charge it "off peak" at home and cost us $112 for a year!
As Chris Harris, Joe's interviewee, is from the UK the point raised about grid readiness also applies to the UK's National Grid. The UK's grid already has sufficient core transmission capacity for the uptake in all renewable demand not just electric cars. The UK grid is sized for 80GW, for a peak demand capacity of 65GW that existed back in 2005/6. Since that time load has significant reduced largely in part due to industrial and lighting efficiency gains; the UK grid's load currently ranges from 25 to 35GW daily (and has been as low as 16GW recently).
The National Grid project that when all energy demands (industrial, household and mobility) fully switch to green electricity the demand will only increase to 45GW; of this the vehicle charging increase is around 5GW, of which 1 to 2GW is for cars (all 36 million of them in the UK). The key enabler for increasing the grids support of electric vehicles is grid connectivity of battery charging sites, rather than the UK grids core transmission capability, plus the connection of renewable generation sites around the UK. However, the transistion over to electrified transport is a generational one gradularly taking place as ICE cars fade from the used car market, with sufficient time for both the planned renewable generation growth and charging network increases.
The grid upgrade programme underway, due to complete by 2030, provides extensions of the grid to those locations not previously serviced by high voltage lines, increases to the number of links to the coast to support the vast amount of offshore wind generation the UK is capable of producing, and addresses historical issues within the existing grid (such as grid congestion) that cost millions of pound a year to currently mitigate.
I think vehicle to grid/home would change. peoples minds where the grid is weak (TX).
Have owned an EV for 4 years. ICE enthusiast for my entire life. Used to change my oil, fluids, rotate my tires, mod my exhaust, carb, later my fuel injection, etc. But my EV is a life changing experience. No engine, practically no maintenance , swoosh past gas stations. We have solar panels and a Level 2 charger. This AYN Rand attitude of “self interest “ leading to consumer adoption over time is kinda right, but unless you poke a little, people will take forever to switch to EVs, and the corporate Oil industry will do everything to sabotage EV adoption. I mean Porsche EVs are amazing and the power delivery is amazing.
Very good channel. I appreciate the fact checking with sources. Awesome job !
The mandates are necessary to level the playing field. Gas had a 100-year head start in building the infrastructure and gets 5 times the level of annual direct subsidies as electric. Once the playing field is ideally level, do you really think a vehicle 1/10 the complexity of ICE with delivery/distillation logistics 1/100 the cost of gas and far lower vehicle lifetime costs will not be capable of competing on its own merit?
Hey Joe. Those same coal plants supply the power for your podcast… and Jamie’s crib so… Shut them down? Ok.
Here’s the EV advantage: You can still power your EV from various other sources. With oil, you can’t.
Joe Rogan has been full of himself for a very long time. Not disappointing to discover that that has not changed.
@mm 6:20 Yes! YES!!! Thank YOU!
Call, rather than compel.
Realize it or not, _this_ is the _heart_ of conservatism!
I think Ben made a great point. We don't need mandates or government getting heavy handed. When you do that you turn EVs into a political football. If EVs are better (and I firmly believe they are for 95% of use cases) then when they reach price parity (they are already in countries where Chinese imports aren't so heavily taxed) then adoption will be inevitable anyway. There's still some hurdles like charging for people without driveways or those in a body corporate situation with shared power but I'm confident that they're just minor in a segment that's only 14 years old. Given another decade and there'll be 100's of potential solutions.
I’m looking forward to seeing the solid state battery in use
You are still absolutely free to choose a horse and carriage if you are nostalgic and don't want to move into the future. The problem with the Porsche 911 is that eventually it will be expensive and difficult to find somewhere to get fuel. Practicalities will kill ICE vehicles.
When the temperature drops to negative 10 degrees C I lose 30% of my need to leave my house and drive anywhere.
😅
The plad, didn't even completed Nürburgring test lap!! The batteries ended before it could make an record lap. This shows, batteries aren't read to power everything
Great show Ben. Doing real journalism.
Oh really? Failed to mention about the EV graveyards housing thousands of EV cars in china to falsify sales numbers and claim subsidies from the government?
1:21-2:00 is such an absurd nitpick. Obviously Joe is talking about daily drivers. Not random trucking regulations for massive transport. And saying "well actually hybrids technically can be allowed..." is just a reach to try to say Joe is wrong. I drive an EV, have no reason to argue for Joe on that, but that was strikingly dishonest to say "yes and no" when the answer is very clearly yes given the context of the law and use case Joe is referring to. Reminds me when political says "mostly false" on something that is completely true w/ a few irrelevant technicalities.
So @BenSullinsOfficial, data guy, are there existing estimates of how many lives would be saved per year in the USA if we could magically flip the switch to a 100% EV light vehicle fleet? How many sick days would be prevented?
Yes, around 90,000 fewer premature deaths, 10.7 million fewer sick days and almost a trillion dollar boost to the economy. Check the American Lung Association study on this here www.lung.org/getmedia/9e9947ea-d4a6-476c-9c78-cccf7d49ffe2/ala-driving-to-clean-air-report.pdf
Mandates give business a framework to organize around and something to tell investors and stockholders why they're spending money on something long-term
12:36 I hate the fact the timeline is determined by politicians instead of scientists too! If it were determined by scientists we would be on generation 5 of the Mach-E and gas cars would have been a weekend hobby toy for the past 30 years.
Huge difference between localized air pollution and the pollution from the energy supplier. It's like trying to compare someone smoking in your backyard vs someone smoking in your kitchen while your having a meal.
Car range = toilet range = 2 hours max if with kids, or 4 hours if you want kidney stones. My Kona does 3 hours no problem (@70mph) ... so its perfect. As others have noted, stopping, resting, eating etc - is actually important.
Agree with a lot of what you say but not the "first needs to be aligned with self-intereste part". People sometimes claim that xyz is their self-interest, when its not actually in their self-interest. What they have confused with self-interest is personal desire based on flawed reasoning. It's not a choice to get off fossil fuels. Its being forced on us by the laws of physics. It's in everyone's self-interest not to see large, and continuing, rise in temperatures. So unless the ICE industry has a cost efficient method to eliminate co2 emission in their products, ICE is mostly on the way out,