A great insight into the problems of DCC chip fitting and running a new train through a helix. Glad I’m not going down either of those routes. I will enjoy watching you solve the problems though. Thanks for sharing. Roy.
Even today some 44 years after i got one of the original Horngy APT's, the various issues with even todays models still exist! On other videos issues with Acura Scale models derailing - i think Class 37 and Deltics from memory. The original APT was always a good runner, with its uprated Ringfield motor, albeit with only a 5 car set. The Mainline (by Palitoy) Class 45's always looked great, but with the scale flanges and complicated bogie design used to have derailment issuee, whilst most Hornby locos always needed stripping down, and extra weight added. Whilst the infamous problems with the then generation DCC in the shape of the Hornby Zero1 were well known. I actually had an HM5000 - which was the same system, and went as far as having fully invested with Accesory modules and even the Zero1 Micromimmic system. Unfortunately there was a fundamental design flaw in the H&M Controller, where the rather crude 16 step speed slider would begin to wear on its contacts, meaning you lost most of the speed control. In the end i went back to analogue with Gauge Master....
Yes, it's an unfortunate fact that companies are more interested in sales profit over testing and getting a good model first. Hornby stated to me there was nothing wrong with the power cars, yet a year after they produced a new power car that had fixed the faults they demanded, they were not there !!! Obviously, they had an awful lot of complaints but wouldn't give me a refund
Great and honest video showcasing various problems. As a novice and only just purchased the Hornby select dcc controller if I'm not bothered about the lights would i just need one decorder in the power car?
Yes it will run with just one decoder in the power car. The newer version of the apt has a 21 pin decoder and seems to have fixed some of the issues so I would make sure u get the 21pin version not 8 pin socket one
On your problems with the helix, check that the 8-pin decoder in the NDM is not fouling or "wedged" in against the bottom of the motor housing. I had the exact same issue as you where it was derailing on 3rd radius curves where the wheels were not sitting right. The problem seems to be that the entire motor housing inside the NDM also needs to move freely as it tilts in conjunction with the bogies. If it's impeded by the decoder then this restricts it's movement and can cause derailments on tighter curves.
Many thanks that is a great idea. I think I may open up the ndm s and move the chip ..I did have a wheel issue that has been fixed now but still issues on 3rd radius so thanks again. I'll try it on Tuesday when I have a day off....
Am I glad I did not pre order it you should not have those problems with the price of them Hornby seems to be poor quality you are a patient man if it was Bachmann I would buy it
Another great detailed vid.. You must of spent over 1k on this full length train... When the coach Capacitors warm up the lighting should not flicker?.. Looks like it's going to be a much shorter train for it to manage the helexes... If the power car has additional weight it still may wheel spin unless there are traction tyre's. You seem a good problem solver and I can see you getting this sorted out and running good in the future... Take care jim..👍🚅🚅🚅🚄🚄🚄
Thanks yes im sure I'll get it sorted. I think that the dodgy wheel on the power car is causing the main issues. If its bouncing and causing derailment then I'm also probably loosing 25% traction too. Luckily didn't spend quite that much as I pre ordered and got it all at the lower prices before the price hike 😀
One of my chips gave the same problem Seems the pins may be slightly different tolerance The huge capacitor in each coach seems to be useless at keeping the lights on My power car also derails mostly on diamond crossovers, something I will have to check for on mine. The biggest let down was it only ran 45 mins before a drive shaft fell out Luckily a man who does repairs was in the shop and we managed to re fit it after about 2 1/2 hours, I was very glad it was not broken, we can only think it was not fitted properly in the factory time will tell.
Not good news it does seem like some quality issues with the China manufacturing process im certainly re considering my other planned hornby purchases now. As this is 2 in a row with issues
@@stocktonjunction The days of models and other goods we buy that have been quality checked seem to be over. My relations new washing machine had a loose concrete block which could not of been fitted properly. As for Hornby for the amount I have paid for a full train and test coach, around £800, I expected more than this, I am seeing a number of comments about things wrong with these trains. On opening the power car we saw there is a decent motor with twin flywheels but there is no huge weight block like Heljan use which would help greatly with adhesion and may prevent it derailing so easily. Most years I put my wish list in at my local shop around now. This year I have decided not to as only two of the 5 locomotives I asked for were released and I feel this one is overpriced When I collected this model two customers came in to return faulty steam locomotives they had just bought.
I've bought the 7 car set with all four of the coach packs, but I see I'll need to get another power car. They are over £110 each! Not great when I've spent £450+ on the train pack and £90 each on the coach packs.
The full set has 2 ndms in total so buying the extra power car is just to replace the dummy so as to have more power .. so the dummy car is not used then
Had the same issue with mine but it turned out to be the way the decoder was fitted. Ended up fitting decoder on top of intetnal chassis then no more issues.
@Stockton Junction Hope you get a satisfactory result. I was amazed when i got it working. Was convinced, like you, that it was rubbish. Tried a wiggly track on the floor with no decoder using analogue. It worked perfectly. Fitted decoder and tried again, still on analogue, and wouldn't complete a single circuit. Bogie lifting like yours. Took decoder out and taped to side of NDM with plug in socket. Worked fine on floor and actual layout. Thats when I took body off NDM and installed inside. All good now. Think Hornby have done a very poor job with decoder location and access. Still hard to believe it's so poorly designed and has to be so exact if squeezed into suggested position.
@@rikallibone well they are sending it back to me so I will test that way .. can I ask please what way you routed the chip wire so I can try the same.... as I did try mounting it inside once and maybe my wire was in wrong place still...
Hi, I used an gaugemaster decoder that I had lying around. I think its a DCC25 nut not sure. Anyway, it has a plug at the decoder end so it was easy to simply unplug the decoder and pass the decoder wires past the motor block and into the body.. I plugged the 8 pin socket in as normal then just pulled the wires so they were not tight but as little in the DCC socket area as possible. Then stuck the decoder on the motor block frame with tape and plugged it back in. I wasn't particularly careful where the wires ended up just not in the socket area. Another thought I forgot to mention is I had some surplus paint on the body where the bogie rubs as makes the tilt. Only a small amount which I removed with a blade and it still derailed after but perhaps a combination of both this and decoder location. Stay positive, I'm sure it can be made to work. Rik
Hi, bless you, this APT is really causing a few issues. Just a thought, you mentioned the raised wheel on the power car bogie, check the coupling, maybe the bogie is too tight and maybe loosened by turning a screw holding the bogie on? Hoping thats helpful. OO rail in USA has produced a fair few videos on the APT as they got their’s before the UK. Maybe worth checking out as his journey has been a little rocky too. ua-cam.com/users/Oorail
Yes I've been watching his videos .. I already noticed the squeak from the wheel pickups he had issues with. I personally think the power car was damaged what with it arriving with the damaged pantograph which is exactly same point that the bad wheel is ...
@@stocktonjunction could be, you could send it back for a replacement. Clearly your choice. I had similar with my N gauge pendolinos, many, many issues. Now 4 years later its getting close
@@piccadillymodelrailways that was my intention to send it back for replacement... as its under warranty I dont want to mess about with it in case it voids my warranty lol
Sorry to say this model looks as bad as the 4VEP I bought a few years ago. Indifferent running, badly thought out decoder accommodation and uncomfortably light construction.
Really interesting, however the loco was never designed to do a helix, the latural stresses and pulling of all those coaches on a non realistic part of track I am not surprised it is struggling. You are trying to run a realistic model on a train set. It is like people try to get an 0-4-0 to pull 10 pullman cars with lights then wonder why it does not do it. While there maybe an issue with your carriage driving wheels, your imaginary track is compounding the issue. Also the track at the start has a long incline, there is no way that is flat or even even. I do not believe it is fair to criticise a loco that you are trying to run on an imaginary track that the real one would have struggled with. You only have to watch powerful locos struggle with the Lickey Incline in real life to realise your helix may make a great train set, it is hardly a realistic or fair test of any product. The difference between a train set and model railway is, on a train set the track is layed in an unrealistic manner, while on a model railway it is. Nothing wrong with either, all personal choice. People forget that 1mm is the equivalent to 3 inches in the real world then wonder why there locos derail or do not run properly.
Ok thats a fair point... but the loco wheel is spinning on the flat at pull away too.. they made the train with a 14 car set in mind..so I didn't even have 14 cars .. the loco wasn't made with enough weight in it to do what hornby want it too..my previous video on the hst pulled up the helix very well.. and bear in mind I mentioned that the wheel was bouncing off the track and may be damaged so that is loosing me traction. im also yet to install powerbase magnets so still plenty of testing to be done as well as running it with 2 driving cars
@@stocktonjunction Powerbase magnets do work I have seen them. The problem you have is if you add weight to the power car the powered wheels will become tight and their carrier will not turn freely on the turns. If you run two driving cars you have to make sure that they are running at the same speed, if they are not you will burn one of the motors out. The loco wheels maybe spinning on the flat because your track is not level, I can see it is miles out. The carriages add weight to the driving car, it is the nature of the couplings. Now if the weight is not evenly applied, and one of the cars is not putting weight onto the power car couplings you will lose traction. However, even if you test this on dead level track you maybe right and the loco struggles with all the carriages. All interesting stuff, have fun !!!
A great insight into the problems of DCC chip fitting and running a new train through a helix. Glad I’m not going down either of those routes. I will enjoy watching you solve the problems though. Thanks for sharing. Roy.
Thanks
Even today some 44 years after i got one of the original Horngy APT's, the various issues with even todays models still exist! On other videos issues with Acura Scale models derailing - i think Class 37 and Deltics from memory. The original APT was always a good runner, with its uprated Ringfield motor, albeit with only a 5 car set.
The Mainline (by Palitoy) Class 45's always looked great, but with the scale flanges and complicated bogie design used to have derailment issuee, whilst most Hornby locos always needed stripping down, and extra weight added. Whilst the infamous problems with the then generation DCC in the shape of the Hornby Zero1 were well known. I actually had an HM5000 - which was the same system, and went as far as having fully invested with Accesory modules and even the Zero1 Micromimmic system. Unfortunately there was a fundamental design flaw in the H&M Controller, where the rather crude 16 step speed slider would begin to wear on its contacts, meaning you lost most of the speed control.
In the end i went back to analogue with Gauge Master....
Yes, it's an unfortunate fact that companies are more interested in sales profit over testing and getting a good model first. Hornby stated to me there was nothing wrong with the power cars, yet a year after they produced a new power car that had fixed the faults they demanded, they were not there !!! Obviously, they had an awful lot of complaints but wouldn't give me a refund
Great and honest video showcasing various problems. As a novice and only just purchased the Hornby select dcc controller if I'm not bothered about the lights would i just need one decorder in the power car?
Yes it will run with just one decoder in the power car. The newer version of the apt has a 21 pin decoder and seems to have fixed some of the issues so I would make sure u get the 21pin version not 8 pin socket one
@@stocktonjunction ok. Thanks for the reply and the info. Appreciate it.
@chrisseed4643 your welcome 👍
On your problems with the helix, check that the 8-pin decoder in the NDM is not fouling or "wedged" in against the bottom of the motor housing. I had the exact same issue as you where it was derailing on 3rd radius curves where the wheels were not sitting right. The problem seems to be that the entire motor housing inside the NDM also needs to move freely as it tilts in conjunction with the bogies. If it's impeded by the decoder then this restricts it's movement and can cause derailments on tighter curves.
Many thanks that is a great idea. I think I may open up the ndm s and move the chip ..I did have a wheel issue that has been fixed now but still issues on 3rd radius so thanks again. I'll try it on Tuesday when I have a day off....
Am I glad I did not pre order it you should not have those problems with the price of them Hornby seems to be poor quality you are a patient man if it was Bachmann I would buy it
Yes I have a lot of patience and will be updating on the apt soon
Another great detailed vid..
You must of spent over 1k on this full length train...
When the coach Capacitors warm up the lighting should not flicker?..
Looks like it's going to be a much shorter train for it to manage the helexes...
If the power car has additional weight it still may wheel spin unless there are traction tyre's.
You seem a good problem solver and I can see you getting this sorted out and running good in the future...
Take care jim..👍🚅🚅🚅🚄🚄🚄
Thanks yes im sure I'll get it sorted. I think that the dodgy wheel on the power car is causing the main issues. If its bouncing and causing derailment then I'm also probably loosing 25% traction too. Luckily didn't spend quite that much as I pre ordered and got it all at the lower prices before the price hike 😀
One of my chips gave the same problem Seems the pins may be slightly different tolerance The huge capacitor in each coach seems to be useless at keeping the lights on My power car also derails mostly on diamond crossovers, something I will have to check for on mine. The biggest let down was it only ran 45 mins before a drive shaft fell out Luckily a man who does repairs was in the shop and we managed to re fit it after about 2 1/2 hours, I was very glad it was not broken, we can only think it was not fitted properly in the factory time will tell.
Not good news it does seem like some quality issues with the China manufacturing process im certainly re considering my other planned hornby purchases now. As this is 2 in a row with issues
@@stocktonjunction The days of models and other goods we buy that have been quality checked seem to be over. My relations new washing machine had a loose concrete block which could not of been fitted properly. As for Hornby for the amount I have paid for a full train and test coach, around £800, I expected more than this, I am seeing a number of comments about things wrong with these trains. On opening the power car we saw there is a decent motor with twin flywheels but there is no huge weight block like Heljan use which would help greatly with adhesion and may prevent it derailing so easily. Most years I put my wish list in at my local shop around now. This year I have decided not to as only two of the 5 locomotives I asked for were released and I feel this one is overpriced When I collected this model two customers came in to return faulty steam locomotives they had just bought.
I've bought the 7 car set with all four of the coach packs, but I see I'll need to get another power car. They are over £110 each! Not great when I've spent £450+ on the train pack and £90 each on the coach packs.
Yes not cheap
Did you have to buy another motorised NDM for this 7 car set to male it to the full 14/15?
The full set has 2 ndms in total so buying the extra power car is just to replace the dummy so as to have more power .. so the dummy car is not used then
Had the same issue with mine but it turned out to be the way the decoder was fitted. Ended up fitting decoder on top of intetnal chassis then no more issues.
I did try that but didn't work for me. Mines been sent back to hornby so maybe they can fix it who knows...
@Stockton Junction Hope you get a satisfactory result. I was amazed when i got it working. Was convinced, like you, that it was rubbish. Tried a wiggly track on the floor with no decoder using analogue. It worked perfectly. Fitted decoder and tried again, still on analogue, and wouldn't complete a single circuit. Bogie lifting like yours. Took decoder out and taped to side of NDM with plug in socket. Worked fine on floor and actual layout. Thats when I took body off NDM and installed inside. All good now. Think Hornby have done a very poor job with decoder location and access. Still hard to believe it's so poorly designed and has to be so exact if squeezed into suggested position.
@@rikallibone well if they send it back I'll try that as I really wanted this model working
@@rikallibone well they are sending it back to me so I will test that way .. can I ask please what way you routed the chip wire so I can try the same.... as I did try mounting it inside once and maybe my wire was in wrong place still...
Hi, I used an gaugemaster decoder that I had lying around. I think its a DCC25 nut not sure. Anyway, it has a plug at the decoder end so it was easy to simply unplug the decoder and pass the decoder wires past the motor block and into the body.. I plugged the 8 pin socket in as normal then just pulled the wires so they were not tight but as little in the DCC socket area as possible. Then stuck the decoder on the motor block frame with tape and plugged it back in. I wasn't particularly careful where the wires ended up just not in the socket area.
Another thought I forgot to mention is I had some surplus paint on the body where the bogie rubs as makes the tilt. Only a small amount which I removed with a blade and it still derailed after but perhaps a combination of both this and decoder location. Stay positive, I'm sure it can be made to work.
Rik
A refreshingly honest video!
Many thanks i always try to be honest in my thoughts on any reviews. I have fixed the wheel issue as will be covered in another video
I was really hoping this new apt would be a huge improvement on the original but it seems that some of the problems that plagued the 80s model persist
Yes it does seem that way
nice train model thanks lee
Thanks lee
Nice train model 👍👍😎😃
Thanks
Hi, bless you, this APT is really causing a few issues. Just a thought, you mentioned the raised wheel on the power car bogie, check the coupling, maybe the bogie is too tight and maybe loosened by turning a screw holding the bogie on? Hoping thats helpful. OO rail in USA has produced a fair few videos on the APT as they got their’s before the UK. Maybe worth checking out as his journey has been a little rocky too.
ua-cam.com/users/Oorail
Yes I've been watching his videos .. I already noticed the squeak from the wheel pickups he had issues with.
I personally think the power car was damaged what with it arriving with the damaged pantograph which is exactly same point that the bad wheel is ...
@@stocktonjunction could be, you could send it back for a replacement. Clearly your choice. I had similar with my N gauge pendolinos, many, many issues. Now 4 years later its getting close
@@piccadillymodelrailways that was my intention to send it back for replacement... as its under warranty I dont want to mess about with it in case it voids my warranty lol
definetly needs some weight on the running car.
Yes it definitely could of done
Sorry to say this model looks as bad as the 4VEP I bought a few years ago. Indifferent running, badly thought out decoder accommodation and uncomfortably light construction.
Unfortunately I'd have to agree im so disappointed..
Really interesting, however the loco was never designed to do a helix, the latural stresses and pulling of all those coaches on a non realistic part of track I am not surprised it is struggling. You are trying to run a realistic model on a train set. It is like people try to get an 0-4-0 to pull 10 pullman cars with lights then wonder why it does not do it. While there maybe an issue with your carriage driving wheels, your imaginary track is compounding the issue. Also the track at the start has a long incline, there is no way that is flat or even even. I do not believe it is fair to criticise a loco that you are trying to run on an imaginary track that the real one would have struggled with. You only have to watch powerful locos struggle with the Lickey Incline in real life to realise your helix may make a great train set, it is hardly a realistic or fair test of any product. The difference between a train set and model railway is, on a train set the track is layed in an unrealistic manner, while on a model railway it is. Nothing wrong with either, all personal choice. People forget that 1mm is the equivalent to 3 inches in the real world then wonder why there locos derail or do not run properly.
Ok thats a fair point... but the loco wheel is spinning on the flat at pull away too.. they made the train with a 14 car set in mind..so I didn't even have 14 cars .. the loco wasn't made with enough weight in it to do what hornby want it too..my previous video on the hst pulled up the helix very well.. and bear in mind I mentioned that the wheel was bouncing off the track and may be damaged so that is loosing me traction.
im also yet to install powerbase magnets so still plenty of testing to be done as well as running it with 2 driving cars
@@stocktonjunction Powerbase magnets do work I have seen them. The problem you have is if you add weight to the power car the powered wheels will become tight and their carrier will not turn freely on the turns. If you run two driving cars you have to make sure that they are running at the same speed, if they are not you will burn one of the motors out. The loco wheels maybe spinning on the flat because your track is not level, I can see it is miles out. The carriages add weight to the driving car, it is the nature of the couplings. Now if the weight is not evenly applied, and one of the cars is not putting weight onto the power car couplings you will lose traction. However, even if you test this on dead level track you maybe right and the loco struggles with all the carriages. All interesting stuff, have fun !!!